Is the Trinity a Big Lie?

Some sects of Muslims, they believe in trinity. You have to believe Jesus is not born.

He's come from the spirit of God. I think it's a different version, you know, but there is some version in Muslim Islam as well.

So I think it is in Christian where they may be right. That's what they think.

Every religion is different. The Christian religion, they think in their way. Muslim people think in their way.

So no one knows the truth. It's confusing. Yeah, a little bit confusing. I can't tell you.

I can't answer to this question. Hi and welcome to Midnight Cry, a program that is committed to speaking the truth in love.

I'm your host Romuald Ghossein and today we have with us Dr. James White who will be continuing to discuss with us the very important subject of the trinity.

First of all, welcome to the show James. Good to be with you. Now we've been able to talk a lot about the trinity and we've looked at it from a biblical perspective really.

Can you show us from a specific passage in the Quran the understanding or misunderstanding of the trinity?

You know, it's interesting. I had the opportunity of engaging a Muslim apologist in debate on this subject in London just a few months ago.

As we went through Surah 5 in the Quran, at the end of the debate,

I was the one arguing that you can read the Quran in context and come to a conclusion as to what it says.

My opponent was arguing, no, it's too difficult to do that. You really can't follow the meaning of the text through a particular surah.

That in and of itself is a rather fascinating thing, the Christian arguing for the consistency of the

Quran and the Muslim arguing for, well, there's some text here we just don't understand what they're saying. But Surah 5 reflects for us the understanding of the author of the

Quran. I think by looking at some of what it says here, we certainly can't go through all of it, looking at some of what it says here, we can come to an understanding of why it is that Christians have said, look, if this is supposed to be the eternal word of God, then it should accurately represent what it is saying is wrong.

And the problem is, it doesn't. And so you can say it's the word of God all you want, but when we test it for logical consistency, it doesn't pass that test.

So for example, if we start at the beginning of the, well, earlier in the surah anyways, and we read these words in verse 17 of Surah 5, they have certainly disbelieved, and that is the term kafir, they have committed an act of disbelief, who say that Allah is

Christ, the son of Mary, say then who could prevent Allah at all if he had intended to destroy

Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother, or everyone on the earth, and to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them.

He creates what he wills, and Allah is over all things competent. Now, when you hear these words, first of all, it identifies what evidently is supposed to be a

Christian confession as disbelief. So they have certainly disbelieved, who say

Allah is Christ. Now that's not normally the way we speak. We speak of the

Messiah as being deity, as sharing the one nature that is God, but saying

Allah is Christ is assuming that all of Allah is expressed in Christ.

Well, the Father didn't become flesh, the Spirit didn't become flesh, so that's a very odd way of speaking.

I don't know that it would be a really accurate way of speaking, but let's just say it's a clumsy way of expressing what

Christians are saying. Okay, it's identified as unbelief, but then listen to the counter -argument that is provided by the

Quran. Then who could prevent Allah at all if he intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother, or everyone on the earth?

Now at that point, I have to go, why mention Mary? What is the understanding of Mary and her relationship with Jesus that would cause the author of the

Quran to include her as a possible object of the destruction of Allah?

It sounds like there's an elevation of Mary here. And I think if we follow this through the rest of the

Surah, you're going to see at the end that that's exactly what we've got. And it's funny, we're the ones who want to follow it all the way through the

Surah. And my experience, many times the Muslims say, well, what it says in verse 17, what it says in verse 116, are totally separate from one another.

Skip over it. Well, I'm not sure exactly how that works. Now, it goes on from there, but let's move from verse 17 down to verse 72.

And there we have these words again, and this is what connects them together. They have certainly disbelieved.

And didn't we hear that before in verse 17? Yes. They have certainly disbelieved who say, Allah is the

Messiah, the son of Mary. Same words. So anyone who would argue that, well, there's been a lot discussed between, well, yeah, but when you repeat the exact same words, you're picking up the same theme.

I don't know how else you can understand it. While the Messiah has said, oh, children of Israel, worship

Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Indeed, he who associates others with Allah, Allah has forbidden him paradises, made it haram.

And his refuge is the fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

Okay. So here's the same assertion. Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary. While the

Messiah has said, now, if you try to find that in your Bible, good luck.

You're not going to be able to locate it. And I've always found it to be somewhat of a glowing example of inconsistency on the part of my, especially my

Muslim apologist friends, who will question the validity of what Jesus says in the New Testament, yet will not question the validity of something like this, where there is no evidence whatsoever that the

Jesus of history ever said these words. No one recorded them. They're not transmitted. They're just found here 600 years later, and they're just accepted.

If I just said, well, I just accept what the New Testament says, and I don't even worry about any objections to it, would a

Muslim accept that as a valid argument? I don't think so. So what I understand here is that the law of Jesus is associating

Mary and Jesus with God. This is what's happening here. And whoever's writing this is saying, no, there should be no association of Jesus and Mary with who

God is. Well, Mary's, at this point, the Mary element isn't in this particular verse.

It will pick up in a later point. But what is being said, even now the

Messiah himself is being quoted, from what we do not know, as saying, worship

Allah, my Lord and your Lord. So clearly, the author is, again, talking about disbelief.

And he's saying to say Allah is the Messiah is to engage in false worship and association.

Because as you know, indeed, he who associates shirk others with Allah, Allah has forbidden him paradise.

So evidently, those who would worship Jesus are engaging in shirk, and they are forbidden paradise.

Their refuge is the fire. And the very next verse says, they have certainly disbelieved who say,

Allah is the third of three. Now, the Yusuf Ali translation in English says,

Allah is one of the trinity. Now, the term trinity technically does not appear in the

Quran. It's the word three, not trinity. Those are there, while they're related to one another, they're not the same word.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, Allah is the third of three. Third of three, what?

Immediately following this, come the words, and there is no God except one

Allah. Now, if I say, do not say three, there is only one book.

Logically, you're going to go, you're saying, do not say there are three books. So if you say,

Allah is the third of, they have disbelieved to say Allah is the third of three, there is no

God except one Allah. What is three according to this surah?

The three is three gods. Allah is the third of three, what?

Three gods. How else can you understand these? Why would it immediately go on to say, there is no

God except one God? If they do not desist from what they're saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers, among them a painful punishment.

So you then have, as the Quran certainly often has this, let's add in here, hellfire punishment, it's coming, but because of the confession of faith.

So each time we have had the idea expressed here, it's disbelief.

We've had Mary associated back in verse 17. Now we have, they have disbelieved to say

Allah is the third of three, three, what? Three gods.

There is no God except one God. If we stop right here, we just ask the question, is this a valid argument against what anyone who could be identified as a

Christian at this time was believing? Sometimes modern Islamic apologists go into, well, you know, you had the

Nestorians and you had this and you had that, and you know, who knows what it's really about, but was there anybody saying that there are three gods?

That's really what the emphasis here is. And I fully understand and agree with the

Quran and saying there's only one true God, but Allah knew at this time in history what the doctrine of the

Trinity was, and Allah knew that the Christians start off their confession of faith with the fact there's only one true

God, maker of heaven and earth. And so if I'm writing a book that's supposed to be for all ages, then

I'm going to be able to accurately express a criticism of a false belief. If the Trinity is a false belief, then it should be accurately stated in the text of the

Quran. But unfortunately, it is not, but it doesn't end here because it continues on.

And at the end of the surah, you have this amazing statement in verse 116, and beware the day when

Allah will say, this is the day of judgment, and he's speaking to Jesus, O Jesus, son of Mary, Isa bin

Mariam is almost always how Jesus is identified in the Quran, did you say to the people, take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?

He will say, exalted are you, it was not for me to say what's at which I have no right. And so why on the judgment day would

Allah say to Jesus, did you say to the people, take me and my mother as deities in derogation of, or besides Allah.

Now this is the same surah that has just, in those previous verses said, do not say that Allah is the third of three, there is only one

God. Who are the three? I have watched

Muslims stand on their heads to try to get around, putting these verses together and coming to the conclusion, the obvious conclusion, the three, if Allah is a third of the three, then we've got

Allah. Now Jesus says, take, did you say take me, says

Jesus, you've got Jesus, Allah, who's the third one? Mary.

Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah. I mean common sense would have to prevail.

I mean, when you read that passage, if you're trying to read it in context, that's the only assertion that you can come up with.

I mean, when you think about it, that is not, as you were saying, that is not the

Christian position. Christians don't believe that. So then when you, but there's even more to this because not necessarily just in surah five, we could stay just in surah five, but is there not a continued emphasis across the

Quran that says Allah does not have a son because Allah does not have a consort, a wife?

Well, what do you mean? Is this a biological union? Is that what we're talking about? Isn't that what Ahmad Didat had taught people for decades was that what the

Christians were talking about was some kind of biological begetting of an offspring. And it makes sense when you think along at this lines.

Let's say the Christians are right for a moment. And what we have in the

Quran are the thoughts of Muhammad. He was a reformer.

He was opposed to the polytheism of his day, but he didn't know the Bible. He did not have access to the

Bible. He thought the Bible taught what he was teaching. Maybe that's what he had heard. As a young man,

Muhammad would have gone on caravan up into Syria and places like that because Mecca had to depend upon caravans for its sustenance.

You couldn't grow enough food in that area to sustain the population. If he went into a small Christian village and he went into a

Christian church, let's say he just looked in. Young teenagers tend to be adventurous and they look around.

If he were to look into a church, what would he see? In those days, he would have seen statues.

He would have seen a statue of God, possibly, as creator, maybe creating the world.

He certainly would have seen representations of Jesus, especially crucifixes at that time. What would he not have seen?

If he had seen a representation of the Holy Spirit, how would the Holy Spirit have been represented?

That's right. As a dove. That wouldn't have struck him as a sign of deity, but what would he have seen a lot of?

Mary. A woman. Yes. Especially a woman with a baby. Baby, yes. It makes perfect sense that this young man, without access to the

Scriptures, without access maybe to someone versed in the Scriptures or versed in Christian theology to really explain things to him, would have interpreted what he saw in the way that Surah 5, verse 116 says, take me and my mother as deities besides Allah.

Allah and Mary, they have a son named Jesus. It's understandable, but it's not what

Christians believed. What does the Muslim do with these texts?

Many times they'll go, well, you must believe that because that's what the Qur 'an says. Even when I say, no, it's not what

I believe and it's not what I've ever believed, it's not what Christians have ever believed, but the authority of the

Qur 'an is on the line here because here is a means of testing its accuracy in its representation of what others believe.

Because as I've said before, whether you accept the trinity is true or false, Allah knew what the trinity was in 632.

So if he wanted to address it, if he wanted to refute it, then he would be able to do so accurately.

About the only way around this is to say, actually, the Qur 'an does not address Christianity. The Qur 'an is only addressing some small group that actually did, like the

Coloridians, which was an ancient group that allegedly worshipped Mary. Well, there's no that Muhammad ever ran into them.

There's no evidence they were ever in Mecca. Most people feel they had passed away before this had ever happened.

So are you really telling me that God had inspired an eternal text that addressed a little teeny tiny color group that wouldn't even continue to exist?

Is that what you're really saying? Or isn't it obvious that this is addressing the Al -Alanjeel, the people of the

Gospel, saying you have committed excess in your religion and the excess is actually a misunderstanding on the part of the author of the

Qur 'an? That's right. I mean, if something is supposed to be principally corrective, it needs to be able to represent the other side correctly and then show its fault and then simply say, well, this is what the truth is.

But what you're showing us here is that you're agreeing with what Allah is saying, that there is only one

God. We've always agreed with that. And of course, the question is, what is the nature of Jesus?

What is the nature of His relationship to the Father? And it seems that this particular text is completely misunderstanding what the relationship is.

Let me just give you, if we could just for a moment, back away from Surah 5 and go to the earlier

Surah, Surah 4. Listen to what is said in Ayah 171, this to the

Al -Al Kitab, the people of the Book, Do not commit excess in your religion, or say about Allah except the truth.

The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but a Rasul, a messenger of Allah, and His word which

He directed to Mary, and a soul, this translation says, parentheses, created at a command from Him.

That's a little bit of an interpretation. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say three.

Desist, it is better for you. Indeed, and guess what comes next, Allah is but one

God. So once again, it's not just Surah 5. Here in Surah 4, as soon as the word three is used, it's followed by, there is only one

Allah. So once again, what is the three allegedly? Three gods, as if we are separating

God the Father from God the Son, and then we have a God the Mother, I guess, thrown in there.

And where did the Holy Spirit go? The Holy Spirit becomes Jabril, becomes an angel in this understanding, which of course is never, and it says,

Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. But what does it mean to say, exalted is

He above having a son? I know what that meant in Muhammad's polemic against the polytheism represented by the

Kaaba in Mecca. I understand what that meant, and I agree with him that God is exalted above having physical offspring with a wife, which is what many of the

Jahiliyyah eras believed. Okay, fine, but that's not what I believe. And this here in Surah 4 is directly addressed to the

Al -Kitab, and so we know sometimes that's the Jews. Here specifically, it is clearly the

Christians. And so it does not accurately represent what the

Christians are believing. It is making a false argument. Do not say three, desist, it is better for you.

Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and sufficient is

Allah as a disposer of affairs. Same kind of argument from the previous Surah, but now specifically once again making the argument, you are a polytheist.

I say to my Muslim friends, we are not polytheists. We do not believe in multiple gods. We believe that there is one true

God, the creator of heaven and earth. However, there are three divine persons that are revealed to us in Scripture, Scripture that had been written and was firmly established long before this man ever said these words.

So it would be just like if someone comes along hundreds of years after Muhammad and says,

I'm a prophet. The hijrah didn't happen. I'm a prophet. The night flight to Jerusalem didn't happen.

Well, why? Because I said so, I'm a prophet. There's no more argument from authority than that.

And so that's why we have to question that authority because Muhammad then grounds his claim of prophethood on Moses, Torah, Jesus, Injil, Muhammad, Quran.

Well, if you don't represent accurately what's in these two, the line is broken, and therefore your own argument for your own prophethood has been broken as well.

No, that's right. That's very true. I mean, if the author of the Quran simply looked at a number of passages in the

New Testament, they would have come to a very different conclusion. Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, if we look, and we often do refer to John chapter 1 and verse 1, in the beginning was the

Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. You know, and a very simple illustration based on that passage is if you were to be able to take someone that you knew, a close relative, and you distinctly knew their voice, you knew the tone of their voice, you knew the way they speak, and you were to put them behind a barrier, and they were to speak, or even better yet, you would take a tape recording of their voice, and you would play it in front of someone that would know that person, and they would listen to that person, and they'd say,

I know their words. I can hear what they're saying. I know who that is. That's so -and -so.

And in the very same way, when God revealed Himself in flesh, in the person of Jesus Christ, when

He spoke, who was it that we were listening to? Whose words was He declaring?

It was the words of Allah Himself. It was the words of the one God. And I think that clearly represents the

Christian position when we look at Jesus. Jesus was not declaring Himself as a separate deity, as a separate

God. No. If that were the Christian position, Christians would be the first people to say that.

Isn't that right? It's true. And in fact, when Jesus is described in the

Gospels, He is described as this beautiful text in John 1 .18. In John 1 .18,

no one has seen God at any time. The monogamous Theos, the unique God, who is in the bosom of the

Father, the position of intimate relationship with the Father. And the term is to exegete, to explain, to make known.

He has revealed Him. One of the many roles of the

Son is as the revealer of the Father. He says, no one has seen God. Well, wait a minute.

People in the Old Testament did see God. In fact, didn't Isaiah see Jehovah sitting upon his throne?

Who did he see, according to John 12? He saw Jesus. The Son is the one through whom the

Father has willed to be revealed and to be seen. And what that means is we as Christians know what

God is actually like because we know Jesus. So you want to know God is loving? Look at the cross and see

Jesus. There is love. There is proof that God is love and that He has expressed that love for us.

James, thank you once again for your time. As you have heard and as you've been able to see, that this is the truth about who

God is. All we're trying to do is simply show you through the Qur 'an the actual position that Christians do take.

We hope that you've been able to see that. Now, what we want you to do is to be able to go away and speak to Christians who believe in the authority of the

Bible and ask them, is this what you believe? And that will challenge you.

That will help you to understand really who this God is. Please stay in tune for the very next episode of Midnight Cry, and until then, may the