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Mae wedi 'i gweithio allan. Iawn, felly, welcome. Rwy 'n gobeithio rhoi 'r cyhoeddiad fawr i bawb sy 'n yma yma 'r diwrnod hwn ar gyfer y drafodaeth bwysig a 'n bwysig ar
Brexit. Rydyn ni 'n hollol yma i siarad am rhywbeth o ddiddorol fwyaf.
Fy enw i yw Ashley Charles ac rydw i 'n aelod o 'r ysgol hwn, Ysgol Ewangelig Selhurst.
Fel aelod o 'r ysgol hwn, rydw i 'n gobeithio cyhoeddi 'r cyhoeddiad fawr i bawb sydd wedi dod yma ac yn cyhoeddi ddiolch i 'r ddau,
James a Adnan, ar gyfer yr effort y maen nhw wedi 'i wneud i wneud hyn.
Y dydd hwn, rydyn ni wedi dod Ă¢ 'n gilydd i wneud yr hyn rhaid i llawer o bobl ei wneud mewn ysgol cyhoeddus ac ymddygiadau yn y dydd hwn.
Rydyn ni wedi dod i drafodaeth. Yr hyn yw argyfwng un ar gyfer un ar gyfer un ar gyfer un, ond i 'w wneud gyda chymorth i 'r un ar gyfer yr un ar gyfer yr un.
Rydw i 'n gobeithio bod James a 'r Adnan yn y cyhoeddiadau cyhoeddus bwysig o 'r cyhoeddiadau cyhoeddus cyffredin a chyhoeddus.
Felly, byddai 'n gyfle cyhoeddus a chyfle addysgol i ddod Ă¢ 'r ddau dynion yma i 'w gweld eu cyhoeddiadau cyhoeddus, ond hefyd i 'w wneud mewn ffordd sy 'n gallu ei fodelio i 'r holl un o ni yma yma.
Yn Ă´l i ni ddechrau, rydw i 'n mynd i roi rhywfaint o wybodaeth i 'r ystafell. Felly, os oes angen i chi ddefnyddio 'r toilet, mae un yn yr ardal cyhoeddus ac mae rhai toiletau fwyaf yn Ă´l yn yr ystafell o 'r ardal cyhoeddus.
Yn amlwg, os oes ffyrdd o ffyrdd, gadewch i chi fynd allan yn y ffordd rydych chi 'n dod i mewn, ond os oes ffyrdd o ffyrdd yno, yna mae un ffyrdd o ffyrdd ar Ă´l.
Felly, gyda 'r holl hynny 'n cael ei ddweud, gadewch i ni ddechrau. Mae 'r syniad o 'r ddebaeth yw, pwy sy 'n ymddangos i
Iesu, Christiaid neu Mwysleiniaid? Mae 'r fformat o 'r ddebaeth fel hyn.
Byddwn ni 'n cael 20 munud o ddatganiadau cyflawni, 10 munud o gyflawni, yna 5 munud o drosglwyddo rhwng
James a Adnan, ac yna 5 munud o bryd ar gyfer cynlluniau.
Ar Ă´l hynny, byddwn ni 'n cael ychydig o amser ar gyfer cyflawni o 'r cyngherdd, o 'r ffordd mae 'r pethau 'n mynd, byddwn ni 'n gweld pa mor amser mae gennym ni ar y diwedd.
Felly gyda hynny, dwi ddim yn siŵr pwy yw 'r cyflawni. Dwi ddim. Felly byddwn ni 'n hoffi...
Cyflawni. Dwi ddim yn hoffi cyflawni, iawn. Felly byddwn ni 'n hoffi cyflawni Adnan i 'r stage.
Dames a phobl, byddwn i 'n hoffi ddiolch i chi i gyd ar gyfer y sgwrs bwysig hwn. Mae 'r sgwrs hwn yn bwysig oherwydd byddwn ni 'n mynd i 'r ffyrdd o uchelgais a chyfathrebu.
Mae llawer o ddiddordeb a chyfathrebu yno ynghylch yr hyn rydyn ni 'n ymddangos Ă¢ 'i gilydd.
Ac mae 'r pwynt o 'r sgwrs hwn, y diwedd hwn, y debyg hwn heddiw, yw i ddangos i 'r byd bod
Christiaid a Chymdeithasau 'n gallu dod Ă¢ 'u gilydd fel brwoddwyr yn y diwydiannau a chyflwyno 'u gwahaniaethau mewn sefyllfa cyhoeddus a mynd i 'r ffyrdd o uchelgais.
Rydw i bob amser yn hoffi rhoi cyfleoedd i Dr James White. Rwy 'n cael gyhoeddiad penodol amdanyn nhw, ac mae 'r gyfle rydw i 'n ei gael heddiw yn penodol iawn.
Nid yw 'r rhai eraill ddim yn penodol. Dyma coen o 'r cyfnod cyntaf
Islam. Mae 'n ei ddod, mae 'n enwmaidd dirham, o 'r mlynedd 97 o
Islam. 97 AH. Pan oedd rhai o 'r cwmpaniadau o 'r
Prif Weinidog Islam yn byw, mae cyfnod cyfnodol o 'r Cwr 'an wedi 'i ysgrifennu ar y coen.
Ac rydyn ni 'n gweld llawer o ffrindiau Christiaid allan yno, ac maen nhw 'n dweud bod y cyfnod cyntaf
Cwr 'an ddim ar gael ar y muslimoedd. Mae rhai o 'r bobl yn ei wneud, yn anhygoel. Felly rydw i 'n rhoi hyn i swyddog Christian er mwyn sicrhau ei bod yn y dyfodol bod gen i rywbeth o 'r cyfnod cyntaf
Islam, gyda 'r Cwr 'an arno. Felly, cyfnod ar gyfer James, gyda liwedd a chymorth.
Felly gallwn ddechrau gyda 'n amser i mi nawr. Bismillah ar -Rahman ar -Rahim. Yn enw Gawd, 'r ysgrifennol, 'r ysgrifennol.
Mae 'r ysgrifennol heddiw yn, beth sy 'n ymddangos i Jesus, y muslimoedd neu 'r
Christian. Beth ydyn ni 'n ei ddweud trwy 'r ysgrifennol? Gall unrhyw un ymddangos i rhywun mewn gwirioneddau ffysig, neu mewn creduoedd, mewn ymddygiad.
Felly byddwn ni 'n edrych ar yr holl bethau hyn heddiw. A yw 'r Christianion yn ymddangos i
Jesus? Pan dweud Christianion, dwi 'n golygu Christianion sy 'n byw heddiw, sy 'n credu yn y Cwr 'an, sydd ganddyn nhw sylwadau pethau am
Jesus Christ. Yn yr un ffordd, byddwn ni 'n gweld bod y muslimoedd sy 'n byw heddiw, sy 'n ymddangos i credu yn
Jesus, a yw eu credu yn wir? A yw 'r muslimoedd yn ymddangos i ac yn dilyn Jesus Christ yn yr holl bethau rydw i 'n ei ddweud?
Felly, yw 'r ymddangos yn beth? Ymddangos mewn gwirionedd, er enghraifft.
A yw 'r muslimoedd yn ymddangos i Jesus mewn gwirionedd? A yw 'r muslimoedd yn ymddangos i Jesus mewn credu?
A yw 'r credwyr yn ymddangos i Jesus mewn yr holl bethau hwnnw?
Yw 'r sgwrs heddiw. I fynd ymlaen. Beth ydy Jesus yn ei ddweud o 'i gwrdd?
Mae 'n cwestiwn pwysig iawn. Beth oedd y sŵn sydd wedi 'i ddefnyddio i Jesus, ynghyd Ă¢ sŵnau eraill, yn yr ysgolion?
Un o 'r sŵn sydd wedi 'i ddefnyddio, byddwn ni 'n cael ei ddweud, yw pan oedd ar y croes, roedd yn grio, neu 'n ysgrifennu,
Ilahi, Ilahi, Lama Sabachtani, sydd mewn gwirionedd eraill. Os yw hwnnw
Jesus sy 'n siarad ar y croes, yna mae 'n defnyddio sŵn sydd wedi 'i ddefnyddio i 'r muslimoedd heddiw, sy 'n
Ilaha. Ilaha a Ilahi yw 'r sŵn unig sy 'n cael ei ddefnyddio mewn ddwy iaith gwahanol. Eraill ac
Arabeg yw iaith ysgolion. Felly mae 'r sŵn Ilaha yn yr un sŵn sy 'n defnyddio i 'r muslimoedd heddiw ar gyfer Gawd.
Felly mae ein cyhoeddiad i ddefnyddio Islam, neu i gyhoeddi Islam ar hynny o bryd, yw beth?
La Ilaha illa Allah Nid oes Gawd ar gyfer Allah, ar gyfer
Gawd Arbenigedd Allah. Felly Ilaha, Ilahi, Allah, maen nhw 'n dod o 'r un sŵn arall,
Ilaha. Felly defnyddiodd Jesus yr un sŵn hwnnw yn ogystal Ă¢ 'r croes.
Wrth gwrs, dydyn ni ddim yn ymwneud Ă¢ bod Jesus wedi 'i rhoi ar y croes. Dydyn ni ddim yn credu hynny. Efallai y byddai rhywun eraill, ac mae hynny 'n un o 'r sgwrs y gallwn ei wneud ar unrhyw pwynt.
Roeddwn i 'n cyfrif gyda Samuel Greene, yn ddiweddar. Os ydych chi eisiau gweld ein sylwad ar y croes, mae 'n rhaid i chi fynd i wylio 'r cyfrifiad hwnnw, fy hun a
Samuel Greene. Ymgyrchu. Ymgyrchuodd Jesus ein cymdeithaswyr fel y gwnaeth neu 'n ymwneud Ă¢ hynny.
Sut ydodd Jesus i 'w cymdeithaswyr? Yn ogystal Ă¢ John 20 .10, yw Jesus wedi dweud i 'w cymdeithaswyr,
Hwyl ydych chi. Sut ydyn nhw 'n cymdeithaswyr i 'w gilydd heddiw? Yn amlwg, ydyn nhw 'n cael ei ddysgu gan y Prif Weinidog, sy 'n dweud eu hunain ei fod yn brwydr o 'r
Jesus mewn feddwl. Felly, mae 'r cyfrifiad yn As -salamu alaikum, mewn iaith arabig. Os ydyn ni 'n ysgrifennu hynny i 'r iaith hebryd, byddai 'n
As -salamu alaikum, sy 'r hyn yr oedd Jesus wedi ei ddweud i 'w cymdeithaswyr, neu efallai rhyw fersiwn o hynny yn aramaig.
Felly, mae Jesus a 'r muslimoedd yn yr un peth ynghylch hynny. Pan ydyn ni 'n gwrdd Ă¢ 'r un arall, rydyn ni 'n gwrdd Ă¢ nhw drwy ddweud,
Gwladwch chi. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Dydyn ni ddim yn defnyddio 'r mod hwn i 'r un arall.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw.
Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch.
Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch.
Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd
Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd
Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch.
Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch.
Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch.
Yn hynny, roedd
Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd
Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch.
Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd Jesus yn dweud stori o ffyrwyr a chynhyrch. Yn hynny, roedd
Nid oedd Jesus wedi 'i ddysgu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu, nid oedd e 'n ysgrifennu aptim on.
Editens isom. Gurur esa Guru esa Iduna Iduna Iduna Iduna Iduna Isuna Isuna Iduna انامو م
Bass rigorer before not going anything in worship elong with Allah not to steal not too committed in Legal Sexual Intercourse not to kill your children not to accuse an innocent person not to be disobedient to do good deed very very similar there is only each other's brothers
Jesus when you look at him and when you look and how much they are brothers in one faith they are teaching the same thing.
Now we come to the question of the law. Jesus was a law -abiding Jew. He followed the
Jewish law. In fact, in the book of Matthew chapter 5 verse 17 we are told that he upheld the law.
Think not that I've come to abolish the law, rather I've come to fulfill it. In other words, the law made certain prophecies about him and he came to fulfill those prophecies.
And anyone who teaches others to go out of the law, even on a point, will be considered least in the kingdom.
He is not from God. And Paul did exactly that, as we will see in due course later on.
Muslims uphold the law. Muslims follow the law which came from God. We believe the Qur 'an was actually a confirmation of previous messages, previous laws.
Qur 'an came as a confirmation of the Torah and this message came for humanity, for the rest of the world.
So in that, Muslims are exactly the same as Jesus. Jesus was following a divine law, so do the
Muslims. The Christians today do not follow the Mosaic law. They believe the law or the curse of the law was lifted by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was crucified on the cross, therefore the curse of the law was lifted. Right? And if that's the case, then either they are not following Jesus or they are following someone else, which is
Paul. Right? So Paul and the law. What Christians follow today was taught by Paul.
Law is a curse. It cannot be followed, therefore it's a curse.
So Paul is the real prophet for Christians, not
Jesus Christ because Paul went against a lot of the teachings Jesus had put forward to his followers.
So it is Paul the Christians follow today. It is Paul who came up with this conception of the abolition of the law and he was actually accused later on for doing so and he denied.
In the book of Acts, we are told in chapter 21, how much time I have got left?
Three minutes, thank you. I'm following your clock today. Okay, James. So in the book of Acts in chapter 21, we are told that Paul was confronted by the
Jerusalem council. Who heads the Jerusalem council? It is James, a direct disciple of Jesus Christ.
Not only a disciple, he was actually a brother of Jesus Christ. Now how he was a brother is another question altogether.
Theologians have grappled with this question for centuries. Was he a blood brother? Was he a cousin?
But the New Testament calls James the brother or a brother of Jesus Christ and he was the head of the
Jerusalem church. He had more authority than Paul did because Paul is actually obeying the instructions of James.
In chapter 15, the book of Acts, we are told that Paul comes to James to discuss the issue of the
Gentiles coming to the way of the Christ. And now the question
I have is, if Jesus has died and he has lifted the curse of the law, then why are the disciples in Jerusalem years after Jesus has died still following the law?
Why are they still going to the temple and worshipping and following the law? And Paul was rightly accused by the
Jewish followers of Jesus in Jerusalem for abolishing the law. How do we know this? This is happening in the book of Acts chapter 21.
Paul comes into the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish followers of Christ are angry with him.
How dare you abolish the law? And then James tells
Paul to go and practice the law in the temple so that people know that this is a lie.
But it was not a lie. Paul had indeed taught the abolition of the law as we can see in these verses on the screen there.
Galatians 2 .16, Romans 3 .19 -28, Galatians 3 .10,
Galatians 3 .24 -25. So Paul denied these accusations for some reason and not only denied, he followed the instructions of James, the leader of the
Jerusalem church and he went to the temple and did the rituals according to the law.
Now there are two options there for us. Either Paul is a hypocrite who says one thing to the
Gentiles and says another to the Jews which is what he did. According to his own words he said to a
Jew I'll become a Jew or to a Gentile I'll become a Gentile. So Paul in not so many words is telling people that he was a hypocrite.
Right? How do we know this? He even deceived James. He should have told James, hold on a second, you know
Jesus has died. Jesus has lifted the curse of the law. Why do I have to go to the temple and do all these rituals?
The law has been lifted. The curse has been lifted. You know that James. You are a follower of Jesus. You believe in the same thing as I do.
But they clearly did not believe in the same thing. They clearly did not. How much time do
I have? Zero. Time is up. Okay. So ladies and gentlemen I will elaborate on this when
I come back. Thank you so much for listening. And I hope I did not hurt anyone's feelings. The point here is to share our view on Jesus Christ and you may disagree with it but this is why we believe in Jesus in the way we believe in him.
Thank you so much for listening. Well before I start my time let me also thank very much
Adnan Rashid for being here this evening. He stepped in. We had other plans and other arrangements that had been made for a debate this evening and those fell through.
The gentleman I was going to be interacting with was not able to do that. And then even after Adnan stepped in then locations were problematic and so I want to thank the folks here at Selhurst Evangelical Church for opening their doors to us on very, very, very short notice.
Thank you for making the trip out here. It is sometimes difficult to put these things together while traveling.
This is toward the end of a lengthy trip for me. I was in the Netherlands last weekend speaking on very different subjects than what we're speaking on now.
And so I'm thankful to everybody who has, especially Ashley who has helped to make this come together and Adnan for stepping up and doing this as well.
Unfortunately since it is toward the end of a lengthy trip anything that I would have packed to give to someone other than Adnan to begin with would have been destroyed in my bag by now.
And so unfortunately even though I started this tradition, do you know when I started this tradition? I started this tradition with Shabbir Ali in 2006.
But sometimes when you're at the end of a very long trip there's not much you can do about it but we'll make up for it next time around with something that Adnan will really love like maybe a football jersey or something like that.
I don't know. That seems to be all the rage right now. Messi, can you kick like him?
That was quite a shot. That was amazing. Anyways, so with that let me begin my time.
Thank you very much again for being here this evening. And this is an important topic and it's not one
I've ever heard debated before. And obviously it can go a lot of different directions. Adnan just touched on at least eight different topics that could be a debate unto themselves.
But I think it's important for us to consider when we ask the question, who is like Jesus?
What do we mean when we say that? Well, Adnan has given his perspective. Now I would like to give my own.
If we want to simply talk about outward appearances, if we want to talk about things that would, for example, be derived from living in a
Semitic culture, in antiquity, even though, you know, exactly when the
Koran was written and the New Testament taking place, there's a half millennium in between. But still, if we were simply looking at things like that, dietary laws and the things that would be associated with life in antiquity, then obviously we have to recognize that the question would be, does the
New Testament teach us to be like Jesus in those things? And one of the differences between Christianity and Islam is that the gospel message is meant to go out to every nation.
It does not bring a particular cultural aspect to it, such as clothing or dietary laws or things like that.
It is meant to be a message that will go to all nations at all times.
And as such, we are not called to dress like Jesus or eat like Jesus. In fact, the
New Testament writers give very little evidence of having any interest in such things, even though in the
Hadith you have tremendous amount of information about how many dates Muhammad would want to eat and the odd number rather than the even number and all sorts of details like that.
New Testament writers show no interest in any of that. And the reason for that is that they did not believe that Christianity is something that is to be passed on that will have some type of cultural normativity.
There are moral and ethical laws and principles, but they must be applied in whatever situation the church finds itself in.
And so why are we really even debating this particular subject? Because Christianity does not make a claim that Christians are supposed to look outwardly like Jesus or behave like him in a cultural context.
If in fact, I would ask our Muslim friends, if Jesus is but a rasool of Allah and only a rasool of Allah.
In other words, that section in Surah 4, 171 specifically is denying that there is anything beyond that calling that would mark
Jesus, because that's the same section that says do not say three, so on and so forth. If he's merely a rasool of Allah, why are we even here tonight?
Why are we even talking about emulating someone? I mean, from the Muslim perspective, Jesus was just the
Jewish Messiah. He was not the Messiah for all people. He was just the Jewish Messiah.
So why would we even be discussing something like this? Now, it is interesting to me that Adnan had just said, well, you know, we have a different view of Christ.
We have the Quranic view of Christ. But I would like to suggest to you that you are dependent upon the
New Testament for most of what you just said about Jesus, because the Quran only mentions the name 25 times, maybe just less than 100 times total references.
You're given very, very little information about Jesus. It's plain that the author of the
Quran assumes that his readers are going to be familiar with the New Testament's testimony about Jesus.
And so nothing is given. There's only one place in all the Quran where Jesus speaks from identifiable historical location, and that's his cradle.
And that comes from non -canonical sources, not from the New Testament sources itself.
So the background material from the Islamic perspective is dependent on the
New Testament at Adnan's presentation, quoted from the Gospels, quoted even from the
Gospel of John. Why? Because we have to. That's the only way we can know anything about Jesus.
These sources tell us many ways in which we cannot emulate Jesus. For example,
Muslims cannot emulate him in raising the dead or being virgin born, both things that are specifically affirmed of Jesus's capacities and abilities.
Christians cannot emulate him in being eternally glorious in the presence of the
Father. As we read, only a matter of one sentence after the text that Adnan quoted from John 17 .3,
you have John 17 .5, where Jesus shows that he is aware of his glorious preexistence in the presence of the
Father before the world was. So here is one person speaking to another person, speaking of the time in eternity when those two persons were co -glorious in eternity past.
That comes right after Jesus's words of John 17 .3. So whatever you do with 17 .3,
you've got to understand what else is said in the rest of the Gospel of John. So Christians cannot emulate him in being eternally glorious with the
Father. We cannot be the son of God. He is identified as the son of God in each of the
Gospels, and not just a son of God, as if God has sons by the tons, as someone used to like to say, but the unique son of God, so much so that when he used that terminology himself in John 5, the
Jews picked up stones to stone him. They wanted, both John 5 and John 10 and John 8, happened a number of times, because of the uniqueness of the claim that Jesus made to be the son of God.
What is more, we cannot emulate him in bearing the very divine name
Yahweh. Yahweh. Jesus is identified as Yahweh in John 12.
John says that Isaiah saw Jesus in Isaiah 6. You go back to Isaiah 6.
Who was it that Isaiah saw? He saw Yahweh. The early followers of Jesus who wrote the
New Testament repeatedly identified Jesus with the one divine name, the specific divine name, much more specific than what you have in Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani.
Yahweh is the divine covenant name of God, and it is used of Jesus.
We cannot emulate him in doing that. We cannot emulate him in having a people to worship us, but Jesus, in Mark 14, verses 61 -64 in his trial, quotes from the
Old Testament. And when we look back at the text that he's quoting, it's talking about that situation in Daniel, where there is one who's brought before the
Ancient of Days, and he is worshipped by his people. He has a people who worship him, giving the highest form of worship.
And so we cannot be worshipped. We have not been worshipped in heaven. We are not to be worshipped on earth.
Jesus accepted the worship of his disciples and others while on earth, something that there is no way that the
Islamic Jesus would ever accept, because if you accept the thesis that Jesus actually worshipped a unipersonal or unitarian
God, then Jesus would never allow himself to be worshipped. Jesus would never allow
Thomas to say to him, my Lord and my God. And then Jesus says to him, now that you've seen me, if you believe, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
No rebuke of Thomas. Instead, recognition of the fact that Thomas is speaking in faith.
Likewise, we cannot be the object of prayer that Jesus was. In John chapter 14, in talking about going back into the presence of the
Father, he talks about how after that having happened, we can ask him anything in his name and he will do it, directed to him.
Has to be in the form of prayer. The early Christians were identified in 1 Corinthians as those who call upon the name of the
Lord, specifically in that context, Jesus. And while Jesus said all authority in heaven and earth was given to him, we are not given that authority in any way, shape or form.
And so there are many ways in which the biblical Jesus is someone that we cannot emulate because of the fact that he is more than just a man.
He is a true man. There is no question that he took on flesh. The word took on flesh.
But he cannot be limited solely to those categories. But we are in fact, to emulate him in calling upon God as Father, just as he did.
It is a tremendous privilege to call upon God as Father. And yet, my
Muslim friends do not believe that Jesus ever prayed in this way. How could he use that kind of terminology?
That is inappropriate terminology for anyone to use in regards to Allah, to refer to him as Father.
But Jesus did this over and over and over again and in and through him, not because of anything in ourselves, but because of who we are in him, we have the tremendous privilege of being able to pray to God as to our
Father. We do so trusting that Jesus has in fact revealed the
Father to us perfectly as no one else could possibly do. He's called the exact representation of his person.
That's how we can have absolute confidence of who God the Father is, an absolute confidence of his love for us because he has revealed himself in Jesus Christ.
There is no arbitrariness in regards to our understanding of whether God will be, will be, will fulfill his promises to us.
We have the promises of Jesus Christ. We are called to trust in God as Jesus did on the cross when he said,
Father, into your hands, I commit my spirit. Our Muslim friends don't believe that ever took place.
They don't believe Jesus ever said those words because there was no cross for at least most Muslims. I've debated a few Muslims who have variant views on that, but the vast majority of Muslims in the world do not believe that that ever took place.
And yet here we have the very central aspect of every gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, what is the focus of every single one of them?
They're all taking us to the cross, the very center point of history, and there
Jesus says, Father, into your hands, I commit my spirit. And that, of course, is what every believing
Christian can say at their dying moment as well. Father, into your hands,
I commit my spirit. That is because of the finished work that he has provided there on the cross.
We are called to fulfill the greatest commandments, love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbors as yourself, because in that,
Jesus taught, all the law is fulfilled. So we do have a law. In fact, the
New Testament speaks of the law of Christ. The issue is that we do not take a singular law and then attempt to apply it without any type of differentiation from culture to culture to culture.
We take overarching principles, and then we have to deal with them. And I'm glad that's the case. Today, we're dealing with genetic engineering and nuclear war and all sorts of things like that, and we need to have something like the law of Christ that we are able to apply beyond merely the scope of the ancient world into the modern world in which we live.
God knew the world was going to be like this. He gives us those in -depth principles within that context.
Now, you see, I think one of the things that would be very helpful for us this evening, in Islam, Jesus is a disciple of Allah.
He's a rasool, but he is one who follows Allah. He submits to Allah. Jesus is a disciple of Allah.
In Christianity, Jesus is the very embodiment of God in human flesh, the eternal son who took on a perfect human nature.
Hence, our call is not resemblance with a fellow disciple, but our call is being disciples of Jesus himself.
So the relationship is not supposed to be one merely of resemblance. It is supposed to be one of following, and Jesus himself taught that in the gospel of Mark chapter 8.
And I want to direct you, if you do have a Bible, to Mark chapter 8, after the revelation to Peter that Jesus is the
Christ, as recorded in Matthew, the son of the living God. Jesus instructs the disciples not to tell anyone this yet.
That time had not yet come. Then you have the situation where Jesus from that time begins to teach that it was necessary to go to Jerusalem, that he'd be betrayed, that he'd be killed and rise again the third day.
This is a central part of the gospel message itself. And Peter, I'm sorry, tries to rebuke
Jesus. Jesus rebukes Peter, says, get behind me. You're minding the things of men rather than the things of God.
And then in verse 34, I want you to hear what happens, because Jesus calls the crowd to himself.
It's not that there's just a crowd around. He actually gathers the crowd, and he calls them to himself together with his disciples.
And he says to them, if you wish to follow after me.
If you wish to follow after me. Not if you wish to follow after God. If you wish to follow after me.
Jesus, as he did so often in the New Testament, so often in the
Gospels, places himself in the center and says, if you would follow after me, you must do something.
You must deny yourself and do what? Take up the cross and follow me.
Take up his cross. He says, if anyone does this, he must take up his cross and follow after me.
Deny yourself. Put your desires and your dreams, they're done away with.
Because you see, if you say to anyone in this day, take up your cross, they all know what you mean.
Jesus is saying, if you want to be my disciple, you must join the death march.
And everybody had seen it, especially there in Jerusalem. The Romans had been, Romans were good at keeping people in subjection.
And they had lined the roads in Judea with crosses when there had been rebellions in the past.
And you had seen that horrible, horrific way of dying. And so Jesus, Jesus is not using sweets and cake and money to get people to follow him.
He is saying, if you want to be my disciple, you must deny yourself, die to the old way of life and join the death march.
The death march, which was so shameful, was so shameful.
You must take up your cross. That's the only way you can follow me.
Now, notice that this is right in the section where he's saying, I must go to Jerusalem and I must be killed.
I must be buried and rise again the third day. So we know what he's talking about here.
He says, whoever, whoever desires to save his life, or literally his soul, will lose it.
But whoever loses his soul, what? For me and what? My gospel.
For me and my gospel, he will save it. Now, folks, it's just right here that we have to get serious with each other, very serious with each other.
I really like this guy over here. When we first met, he seemed a little angry.
That's because he was used to speaker's corner. And speaker's corner does things to you. But then in Dublin, Ireland, I insisted between two debates that we did that we have lunch together.
And all of a sudden, Adnan found out that I'm a human being. And I happen to be a human being who does what
I do because I really believe that what I'm saying is true. And to the
Muslim people, I actually love you. And you may disagree with me.
You may say, well, you misrepresent us. But you know I'm not trying to. I am trying to be accurate in my representations as much as I can to show respect for you.
And yet we keep doing debates. And the world says, well, if you really liked each other, you'd stop debating.
No. What I believe and what Adnan believes are not the same thing.
There is no way to take these two positions and meld them into Chrislam. That would be tremendously disrespectful to what you believe and tremendously disrespectful to what
I believe. Surah 112, Ayah 3, if it's right,
I'm wrong. If it's wrong, then I'm right. I think that's the way I put it. There's no way.
There's no way to put these two things together. I wish it were not the case. But if you love someone, you will tell them the truth.
That's what our society doesn't understand anymore. We're not allowed to do that anymore. And so why are we here?
Here's the most important thing. Jesus identifies what it means to follow him.
And Jesus says, if you will be my disciple, you must deny yourself and take up your cross.
There's one Ayah in the Koran, Surah 4, 157, that keeps you from being able to do that if you're a
Muslim. Where did that Ayah come from? Now, we've done debates on the cross.
I believe there's one that Samuel Green was the one you did debate recently. I've done debates on the cross with a number of people, even here in London.
We'll do more in the future. But the point is that in Jesus' own words, to truly be a disciple of him, you must be willing to die with him.
That is not the type of language a mere Rasul uses. That's what every true
Christian, not just the Christian who got baptized as a baby and thinks they're a Christian. The person who has truly made a commitment to Jesus Christ dies to self and takes up the cross.
That's the only way we can be made like him, is to follow his own words.
Thank you for your attention. 10 minutes, 10 minutes.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much,
James, for that passionate sermon. I always like James preaching. He's a very eloquent preacher.
He has been telling Christians how to follow Jesus. He didn't quite explain how
Christians today actually resemble historic Jesus. Let me quickly explain.
He's right that it took me a while to see him as a human, not as someone who is out there to spread hate against Muslims, because I thought
James is just like other Christian apologists, missionaries around the world, a lot of whom are spreading hate against Islam and Muslims actively.
They are part of the Islamophobia industry. Some of those people have actually attacked
James for doing the amazing work he is doing for his people. James and myself are victims of extremists.
Thankfully, we are not extremists. This is why we are here, to talk with love and compassion, so that our people can see that not every single
Christian or Muslim apologist or debaters or scholars or activists are the same.
There are people who want to have peace in this world, who want to share love and compassion. Therefore, I want to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, that I love you all.
The reason why I'm here today is because I love the Christians. I want the Christians to see our viewpoint.
I want to lift this barrier that has been created by hateful individuals out there online, so that you can see what the
Muslim perspective is from the Muslims. So, what did James talk about?
James talked about a lot of things and he did not address, obviously that was his opening statement, so I cannot really hold him accountable on that, but there are many points
I raised and I was directly addressing the topic. Resemblance. How do we actually resemble
Jesus Christ? Is it only outward, ritualistic resemblance?
Do we only resemble Jesus in dress code, how he had a beard and how he walked around like a
Muslim, looking like a Muslim? No, it is more to do with inward resemblance, which is belief.
I talked about it. Jesus did not worship a Trinitarian God. James actually confirmed it, that he was talking to the
Father. Why do the Muslims accept that language? Because we believe things done previously were allowed.
For example, the Muslims believed prostration to important people in the previous laws and regulations was allowed.
For example, the family of Joseph bowed to him. It is now haram in Islam. Therefore, to use the word
Father for God Almighty is not allowed in Islam, but it was allowed for the previous generations, previous prophets.
They could use these words because people understood the context. They knew, but later on the term Father was misunderstood by Greek philosophers and Hellenistic thinkers who basically painted the word
Father in a very different light and they started to claim that Jesus and the Father were of the same essence.
I'm not going to indulge in a lot of things James talked about when he preached about how you must carry the cross and follow
Jesus in death and all of that. I'm not going to, because that's not the topic today. The topic is resemblance.
How do the Christians resemble Jesus, historic Jesus? In beliefs most importantly, not entirely, not particularly or specifically in rituals.
I have clarified already that we pray like Jesus, we the Muslims pray like Jesus. Christians don't.
We fast like him. We are circumcised, I mean, we are men circumcised like him because he was circumcised, right?
And we do not eat swine. We don't consume swine meat.
Jesus did not do that. Jesus followed the law and we follow the divine law.
The law of Jesus was not the law of Christ, which was later on conceived by Christians.
The law of Jesus was the Mosaic law. That was the law he was talking about in chapter 5 of the book of Matthew.
When he talked about the law, he was talking about the Mosaic law. He was not talking about a new law or another law.
When he said, I have come to fulfill the law, he was talking about the Mosaic law. What happened to the
Mosaic law? It is Paul who came later and gave Christians what they believe in today.
If you put the writings of Paul on the one side, what he said in his epistles, 13 of his epistles and the rest of the
New Testament books on the other side, what the gospel authors are saying about Jesus, you will see a direct contradiction in some cases.
You will see there is a conflict. Jesus is telling his disciples to follow the law, the commandments if you want salvation.
Paul comes along and he tells us, no, the law has been abolished. Then James comes along and James condemns
Paul. James states that there is no faith without works and this conflict is not actually detected by the
Muslims. Muslims do not have any interest in highlighting these problems in the Bible. We have the Qur 'an.
James, he mentioned something very interesting, very important and why are we even looking into the
New Testament? The reason I as a Muslim is pointing out these things in the New Testament is because you are
Christians. You do not believe in the Qur 'an. I want to show you from your scriptures that Jesus resembles
Muslims more than he resembles you. If you are not worshipping like him, believing like him or doing things like him, then how are you actually following historic
Jesus? You are following Paul. Every single thing you believe in on Jesus has come to you through the lens of Paul.
You are reading into the life of Jesus through the lens of Paul. Remove Paul, who is
Paul by the way? Paul is someone who never met Jesus, never knew him in person. You have put all your belief in one basket, the vision he had on the road to Damascus and you have completely ignored the actual disciples of Jesus Christ, the ones who lived with him, ate with him, talked with him, walked with him, people like James.
What is James saying in his epistle? If you read all the epistles of Paul, 13 of them, what will you see?
The person of Christ, not the teachings of Christ. When you read one epistle, the epistle of James is all about the teachings of Christ.
Every single thing James is talking about is to do with Christ, what he taught, what he did. So James is more for looking like Christ, doing like Christ and being like Christ rather than Paul ignoring
Christ and following his view on Christ, which is actually very inconsistent with the view of Christ according to the
Christ himself. So this is very, very important for you to look into. And why am
I pointing out these inconsistencies? Because when you look at the evidence, you see that in the book of Acts chapter 21,
James who had the authority which Paul himself acknowledges. Paul in the book of Galatians acknowledges that James is the most important person from the followers of Jesus Christ to an extent that Paul himself goes to James to get matters fixed.
Who is James? Why is Paul going to James? Why is Paul even listening to James? Why? Because James is very important.
Very, very important. James is not teaching any of that. James didn't talk about the divinity of Christ, nothing on the
Trinity, nothing on the abolition of the law or law being a curse. Rather, James is a law abiding
Jew who followed the Christ, who believed in the Christ. He clearly had different views from Paul.
So Christians today are actually following Paul. They are imitating Paul. They resemble
Paul, not Jesus Christ, as I have already clarified. Coming to the beliefs,
I asked a very specific question from James. James came and did a lot of beautiful preaching, which is fine.
This is a church. This is what he's supposed to be doing. But my job is to highlight the inconsistencies.
Where is the inconsistency? If Jesus is worshipping the Father, clearly in the
New Testament, why is he not worshipping a Trinity? What is he teaching his disciples?
Why is he deceiving his disciples if he is a Trinitarian? He should be telling his disciples, there is a
Trinity in the heavens and we worship that Trinity. Why is he worshipping a unipersonal
God, a unipersonal God called the Father, called the Ilaha? Why is
Jesus worshipping that unipersonal God is a very important question. In that, most importantly, and this is something inward, this is to do with belief, not outward rituals.
I agree with James that if you outwardly look like someone, doesn't necessarily mean that you are like that person or you are following that person.
I agree. But how are the Christians following Jesus today? How are they following Jesus if they believe in a
Trinity? Jesus never taught a Trinity, never worshipped a Trinity, never preached it. Why are the
Christians following or worshipping a Trinity? It's a very important question. Jesus was a strict monotheist who worshipped a unipersonal
God. That means one person, one being, the Father, and he taught his companions that, his disciples that, as confirmed by James himself.
So ladies and gentlemen, I really want you to contemplate on not only outward resemblance of Jesus, also the inward resemblance of Jesus when it comes to beliefs.
What beliefs did Jesus hold? On divinity and on following the law.
Thank you so much for listening. The real problem with debates like this is you get 10 minutes to respond to 20 minutes of what the other guy said.
There's a problem with that. It takes you longer to respond to things than it does to make assertions. But let me just get to a few important things.
It was said that my preaching on what Jesus said in Mark chapter 8 was not on the topic tonight.
It is the topic tonight. When Jesus defines what it is to be his follower, to be like him, to be one of those who believe what he has to say, to hold his beliefs, when
Jesus lays it out, the way he does it is impossible for a Muslim to believe.
And we were told, well, you know, we're just only using the New Testament tonight because you're Christians. And so we're showing you where the inconsistencies are.
The problem is, I would like to challenge Adnan, tell us something about what Jesus said or did without using the
New Testament. All you have are a couple of disjointed ahistorical statements in the
Quran. You've got nothing. You have nothing that's from any identifiable historical place in the
Quran. And even then you're talking about 600 years down the road without a shred of historical evidence that goes back to the first century.
You are dependent upon the New Testament. The problem is you then have to pick and choose what of the
New Testament you're going to believe. Now, there's a lot said about Paul. Interestingly enough, and those who are watching this will mention, you know what the topic
I wanted to get for a debate for this trip? Was Paul a true apostle to the
Lord Jesus Christ? I'm coming back in November. Let's make it happen because I will defend that and I will demonstrate it from the text of scripture.
The statements made about Paul, especially his understanding of law, I'm sorry, are just misguided.
They do not understand Paul's understanding. He himself said in Romans chapter three, after he says we're justified by faith, do we then do away with the law?
No, we establish the law. He said the law was good. It's the law of God. You just have to understand what the purpose of the law was.
It's to show us our sin and drive us to a savior. Once you understand that, then you understand that so much of the accusation against Paul simply does not follow.
Now, we were told that Jesus taught a unipersonal God. Now, how does that work?
Now, again, the only way you can make this work is if you cut up the New Testament into parts.
You accept one part of a book and another part of another book. You reject that another part, another part, so on and so forth.
But I'm not unquoted from John chapter eight, so let's go with just John chapter eight.
How does Jesus identify himself in John chapter eight? First of all, he identifies the Father as the one who has sent him.
He also says that he always does the will of the Father, and he also says that unless you believe that ego
I me, I am, you will die in your sins.
John 8, 24. At the end of the chapter, he says before Abraham was ego
I me, I am, and the Jews picked up stones to stone him.
Now, who believes Jesus's words? Christians or Muslims?
Muslims don't even believe he said those words. So, how can you quote from John chapter eight, and then take out the parts that clearly state something that is directly opposed to the conclusions of the
Quran? You can't do that. And so, when it is asserted unipersonal
God, Jesus identifies the Father as a distinct person from himself, and yet he identifies himself with the
Father as having the one glory of God. He is worshiped by the disciples. When Thomas calls him my my
Lord and my God, he does not rebuke him. In Matthew, after his resurrection, the disciples worship him.
He does not rebuke them. This is consistent with everything else that goes on into the text of Paul and Acts and the other
New Testament writers. And let me just give you one example, since some people will say, well, you know, I don't know that we can really trust what
John has to say. I prefer a more primitive gospel. Okay, Gospel of Mark, chapter 14, the trial of Jesus.
When Jesus is asked, I abjure you, are you the Christ, the
Son of the living God? How does Jesus respond? The first words out of his mouth are, ego,
I am me. The same words he uttered in John 8, 24 and 858, by the way, I am, and you will see the
Son of man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.
Jesus takes two citations, one from Psalm 110, the other from Daniel. He puts them together.
Every intertestamental Jew, every Jew of the first century knew exactly what those texts were about.
And if you go back to Daniel and look at that text, the one who appears before the ancient of days is worship, highest level of worship by his own people.
Jesus is identifying himself with this heavenly being, not a mere Rasul of Surah 4, 171.
And how did the Jews understand this? The chief priest, he tears his clothing and he says, what further evidence do we need?
You've heard the what? The blasphemy yourself. And Jesus doesn't go, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you misunderstand.
I'm just a mere Rasul. I'm just pointing you to Allah. That's not what happens. Jesus does this purposefully.
If that's the case, then where do you get this unipersonal God? You have to accept everything that the
New Testament teaches. And so when Jesus can identify the father as a distinct person from himself and yet accept worship, when both the father is identified as Yahweh, Jesus identified as Yahweh, the spirit is the spirit of Yahweh.
When Jesus can say, baptize them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit, that is not baptizing in the name of Allah, a mere
Rasul, and the angel Jabril. There is one name and three persons sharing that one name.
Sounds like the, oh, the doctrine of the Trinity, which we find in the earliest Christian writers, not 381
AD. But if you go look at Ignatius, the Bishop of Antioch, on his way to martyrdom in Rome in 107 or 108
AD, not only does he identify Jesus as God at least 10 times in his genuine letters, he also uses illustrations of the
Trinity there. Does he use the term Trinity? No, but he talks about the father, the son, and the spirit together in ways that definitely demonstrate their unity as the object of his worship.
That's another subject that we could get into. I've taught church history since 1990, and so it'd be a good one to get into.
And so when it comes to beliefs, I simply ask if,
I ask every Muslim person and every Christian person in this audience, when
Thomas sees Jesus, and Jesus says, do not be unbelieving, but believe, shows him the bones of an act that you as a
Muslim don't believe ever happened. Because of one, 140 word ayah written over 600 years after the events.
All, all of the first century material, everything from 100 years after that period of time, says the same thing.
Jesus Christ died under Pontius Pilate on the cross, every bit of it. But you reject that for something 600 years later that has no historical background to it.
But Jesus appears before Thomas, and Thomas looks at him and says, my
Lord and my God, what should
Jesus have done if Surah 4, 171 is true? Surah 4, 171.
Do not say three. Jesus is a mere rasul, a mere apostle, a sent one of Allah.
Nothing more than that. Do not say of Allah anything but the truth. Don't go into excess is what
Surah 4, 171 says. Look it up. I'm not misrepresenting you. If that is the case, what should
Jesus have said? There should have been an immediate rebuke, just as there was in the book of Revelation when
John bowed down to the angel who had shown him all these incredible things.
When John bows down to worship the angel, the angel says, do not do that. I am merely a fellow servant of God.
Worship God alone. That's what Jesus's duty would have been. And Jesus's response is, because you've seen me, have you believed,
Thomas? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. So I do think this is the issue.
Will we follow Jesus's own teaching? Is that how we become like him? Well, if we're going to be consistent, then that's what we need to do.
I didn't have time to get into Mosaic law and things like that. Just touched on those things very, very briefly. Obviously, good topics for future debates, as long as I will still be allowed into England after the next few years.
Thank you for your attention. So it's my turn first.
So this is the crossfires part of the debate where we actually ask each other questions for five minutes each.
It's my turn to ask questions and I will keep it as short, as brief as possible.
So James, coming back to the two main points I raised about inward resemblance of Jesus, because outward, you don't seem to make a big deal out of it.
Outward resemblance is not as important as inward resemblance in your view.
I can somewhat agree with you, but again, outward is very important also. Worshipping like Jesus, like prostration is very important.
Christians don't do that today. They have historically, to my knowledge, Trinitarians in particular, Trinitarians have never worshipped
God like that. I mean, to my knowledge, maybe there are exceptions, but I'm talking, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah, coming to that.
So if Trinitarians did not worship God, the
Father, or the Trinity by prostrating, how are the Trinitarians actually imitating or resembling
Jesus Christ in worship? Okay, yeah, I didn't get to response to the prostration stuff. Each one of the examples you gave were unusual examples.
For example, the high priestly prayer of Jesus, the example of Jesus' prayer to the
Father in John chapter 17, he lifted up his eyes to heaven. He was not prostrated at all. So there is no singular bodily orientation that is demanded.
The examples you gave from the Old Testament with regards to like the ordination of priests and things like that. But there's your consistency. I'm sorry?
There's your consistency. All the prophets that we know of prayed like that, and so did
Jesus. I don't think that's the case at all. Well, you don't think there's a difference? No, no. I just gave you an example of where Jesus didn't pray like that.
Yeah, I'm talking about when he did pray like that. It is, you are free to adopt any bodily position.
It is not something that is demanded that you have to prostrate. And so there are Christians who pray in every bodily position.
I understand that. I'm saying Jesus was very consistent with previous prophets. With the
Old Testament examples I gave from Genesis, from First Chronicles, from the book of Daniels as well.
There are examples, David prayed like that. David, Daniel, Abraham, Moses.
The priests did not though. For example, if you look at how they lead the prayers. No, no. Priests also prayed like that. But there is no command that they were to prostrate in the offering of sacrifices or any of the things, the situations.
So how do you resemble someone in worship? Well, by worshiping the same
God they did. The way they did it, right? No, it doesn't have to be the way they did it. I've never,
I think it would be very distracting to most of us if we tried to worship God in this place to the smell of sacrifices.
But do you not see there is a consistency in prostration? No, I do not. You don't see that? No, I do not. Okay, I'll leave it there then, no problem.
Okay. Next question I have is, we Muslims resemble
Jesus strikingly in our belief. We worship a uni -personal
God. Jesus, whenever he worshipped God in the New Testament, he worshipped a uni -personal
God called the Father. So why did the Christians worship the Trinity when
Jesus did not? I just gave the answer to that in my closing statement.
It is allowing all that the New Testament teaches, all the Gospels teach. You cannot come to conclusion when
Jesus says, glorify me, Father, with the glory which I had in your presence before the world began.
How do you take that and say that Jesus did not exist as a glorified object of the worship of the angelic creatures in eternity past?
Great. So why is Jesus playing these games? Why is he not coming out straight and saying, I am part of the
Trinity, the Holy Spirit is also part of the Trinity, Father is part of the Trinity, worship the Trinity.
Why is Jesus playing these indirect, vague games with his followers? Why doesn't he, like the
Father, thousands of places in the Old Testament he tells, I'm the Father. Let me answer that. Let's keep the question succinct.
I believe God has the right to reveal his truth in the timing that he desires to do so.
And so here's where you and I disagree, even though it's very plain. But James, a sentence would do it, a sentence would do it.
But you're demanding the timing in which there is going to be revelation. I'm saying, no, until the exaltation of the
Son, why reveal something that will not be able to be understood by people? Until the
Holy Spirit has been poured out upon the church, how can you even begin to explain what the Trinity is? But Jesus could easily tell his disciples, in the future, this conception of the divinity will be clarified, so there will be three people he will have to worship, three persons within one being.
Just one sentence, if it's so important. Is that the alarm? I guess it was.
It's also a pretty song, too, but sorry about that. But can I, very, very quickly, if I answer, I'm just, very, very briefly, you're making a, you're basically saying
God has to reveal these things on my timetable rather than allowing
God to do it in his timetable. And I would argue that there are certain things in the
Qur 'an and in Islamic theology that flow along the same lines need to be consistent. Okay, your time.
My time. Okay, so let's go back to, it does seem that we are focusing in upon the key issue that to be like someone is to believe what they themselves teach, right?
Also, outwardly as well as inwardly, which is belief, yes. Okay, so could you answer the question that I gave to the audience?
What should Jesus have said to Thomas in John 20? Very good question.
I think Jesus did make a correction when someone called him good, and he said, why do you call me good when no one is good but God?
In this verse, we get a clear answer from Jesus that he is saying to his followers, he is not
God, because he actually separated himself from the notion of being God in any shape or form.
If he was God, as you claim he was, then this was the point to say, yes,
I'm good because I'm God, right? But he makes that distinction. What he might have said to Thomas, we don't know.
What Thomas actually said, in what language Thomas said that to him, again, the language is very important.
Moses is called God. Do you believe Moses is God? Moses is called God in the
Old Testament, in the book of Exodus, chapter 7, verse 1, Moses is God to Pharaoh, right? Now, what do you mean by God here?
This is another question. Okay, so do you believe that this encounter actually took place in John 20 at all?
Okay, my view on the Old Testament… I didn't say the Old Testament, I said John 20. Sorry, the New Testament.
I believe, as Muslims, we don't need the New Testament to know anything about Jesus. We believe in Jesus because of the
Qur 'an, right? So we believe there are many things in the New Testament that are dubious, and there are many things that are definitely from God.
Originally, they came from Revelation. Jesus definitely said those things, for example, Hear O Israel, the
Lord our God is one Lord. We believe that. We believe those are the words of Jesus. But other things, other people saying, how do we know?
When you cited the text where Jesus is speaking to the rich young ruler, you understood that to be
Jesus saying, I'm not God, right? Just now? I have no problem in accepting that those are the words of Jesus, yes.
Okay, and you understand Jesus to be saying there, I'm not God, so that means
Jesus was saying, I'm not good, right? You tell me what he means there, what you tell me. I can't do that,
I have to ask you. I'd be happy to tell you. I'll do it in my closing statement, how's that?
But my point is, I want it to be made clear, you have an interpretation of that text that would fundamentally be
Jesus saying, I am not good, right? No, that's not my understanding. This is humility on the part of Jesus, which he himself taught his companions, like the example of the
Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee saying, I fast twice a week.
The tax collector is not even looking at the heavens and he's saying, God, I'm a sinner, forgive me.
God, I'm a sinner, forgive me. This is the same message we get from Muhammad as well, where he was asked, why do you even ask for worship?
He says, shall I not be a thankful servant of Allah? Shall I not even be thankful because Allah has given me such a high status?
So this is the humility of Jesus as a prophet, as a messenger of God. So is it possible that what's going on with Rich Young Ruler is that Jesus is in fact identifying himself as God and the
Rich Young Ruler doesn't see it? He's the very one that gave him the law that the Rich Young Ruler is pretending to have followed?
I don't think Jesus claims to be God anywhere, directly or indirectly, anywhere in the
New Testament. Christians have to use insinuations, inferences from other people or other statements.
That are not clear. Even ego, I, me is not clear. Okay, what does it prove? It proves that Jesus is pre -existent.
He has eternally existed. How does that prove he's God? I believe I have pre -existed in the knowledge of God. God knew
Adnan Rashid will be born once in the future. James White will be debating him on the 20th.
Sorry, what's the date today? So 2nd of May. I knew what the date was too. So this has existed in God's knowledge eternally.
God knew. So when Jesus says, before Abraham was born,
I am, you insert in that somewhere, I am in the foreknowledge of God?
Yes, 100%. That's how I understand it. Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him? Because they would have believed that about everybody.
Good question. Good question. And when they did pick up the stones, how did Jesus defend himself? Does it not say in your law that you are sons of God?
That's John 10, not John 8. Sorry? That's John 10, not John 8. John 10, but similar incident where Jews pick up stones to stone him, right?
And Jesus responds by saying that I am only claiming to be the son of God. And it says in your scripture,
Psalm 82 verse 6, that you are gods. I'm only claiming to be a son of God. I would love to discuss that, but we're out of time.
Thank you so much. So our concluding remarks.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being present to listen to both of us. And we appreciate your time and your effort to make your way.
I would like to thank Selhurst Church in Norwood, South London, for accommodating this debate.
We really, really, from the depth of our hearts, appreciate that. And I would like to thank Dr. James White for another opportunity to have a very friendly and compassionate dialogue debate with him.
What are we left with? We are left with a number of points. I had raised a few points to highlight how
Muslims resemble Jesus. We resemble not only outwardly, we resemble him not only outwardly, we resemble him inwardly.
It is very clear that Jesus did not teach the Trinity anywhere. He did not teach his divinity anywhere.
Christians today have to rely on external statements made by other people to make that insinuation.
Nowhere in the New Testament we find a statement where Jesus said, I am
God. This is all he had to do. Instead of going around the world and making vague statements, if he really wants people to believe that he's
God, he could simply do it like God the Father did in the Old Testament. Thousands of places, God the
Father introduces himself by saying, I am your God. Worship me. I am a jealous God. I am your
God. I am your God. I am your God. The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, I am your
God. Again and again, the Father is speaking like that. But Jesus does not speak like that anywhere.
What we do find from Jesus, however, is clear -cut negation of his divinity if he was divine.
He told people clearly he cannot be God. Like the example I gave earlier, when someone called him good, he said, why do you call me good when
God alone is good? In John 17 3, he tells his followers, Father is the only true
God. In the Greek language, monos alitinos, alone true.
If Father alone is true, then others cannot be true. It's simple, simple logic. So, Muslims resemble
Jesus not only outwardly in the fasting, in the prayer, in the prostration.
We talked about prostration, how Muslims prostrate when they pray. Jesus prayed by prostrating to God.
Abraham prayed by prostrating to God. Moses prayed like that. Aaron prayed like that. Daniel prayed like that.
David prayed like that. Consistent way of praying to God which Jesus upheld and the
Christians amazingly do not follow him in that today. They have never, the Trinitarians have never followed
Jesus in that, worshipping God by prostrating. Likewise, we have examples of, for example,
Jesus was circumcised. How many Christians believe in actually circumcising? They don't, Christians don't believe in circumcising.
Christians eat pig. For them, it's not a problem. A lot of people in the
West, the Western world is predominantly Christian, depending on where you're looking at or what you're looking at.
Pork is a delicacy. People love their ham sandwiches and black pudding, all of that.
Jesus, if he was alive, he would be the first person to tell these Christians, what are you doing?
You are actually eating something I bought, which was forbidden by the law. Why are you not circumcised?
Why do you not actually pray like me? Why are you worshipping three persons in one being?
When did I teach you that? When did I tell you to do that? You're doing it just because Thomas made a vague statement somewhere?
Is that, did I tell you to do that? No, Jesus on the day of judgment, he will be asking
Christians these. And throughout Christian history, nearly 2000 years, if you look at Christian history, how did the
Christians actually follow Jesus? In actions, in worship, in belief. If you minus Paul, if you take
Paul out, who never met Jesus, who claimed to have a vision, which the Christians have wholeheartedly accepted at the expense of the teachings of direct disciples of Jesus, then what are you left with if you minus Paul?
You are left with Jesus, with his prostration, with his circumcision, with his dietary rules, with his following of the
Mosaic law, with his strictly monotheistic view on divinity.
Worship one God alone. Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one
Lord. How clear do you want him to be? What more do you want from him?
If he's God, he should have said, I am God, so is the Holy Spirit, the Father you have been worshipping for centuries.
Now there are three in one. Worship three persons in one being. Never did we find that with Jesus.
I hope you can see the resemblance clearly between Muslims and Jesus. And Christians do not in those things resemble
Jesus Christ, rather they resemble Paul more than Jesus. Thank you so much for listening, ladies and gentlemen. Okay, very, very quickly in Mark chapter seven, verse 19,
Jesus declared all meats to be clean. So given the fact that he is the Lord Jesus Christ, and he is the one who created all meats,
I accept what he has to say, and therefore I follow him. And the entire discussion of that is now over.
In James chapter two, verse one, we had a question earlier.
Why didn't James believe in these things? The brother of Jesus in James 2 .1
speaks of him as the glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
Does that sound like Amir Razul? The glorious, that's a very, that's Daksa. That's the very glory of God, the same glory that Jesus talks about in John 17.
James viewed Jesus as the glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
It's perfectly consistent with what we've been saying, not consistent with the person who believes Jesus is only
Amir Razul as we see in Sura 4 .171. John 17 .3, and this is eternal life, nor they might know you, tan elathanan thean, kai han apestailas yesun kristan.
Please note what it actually says. What is eternal life? To know you, the only true God, and, and, wa in Arabic, there's a connective there, and the one whom you have sent,
Jesus Christ. If you want to have eternal life, you have to know the Father and the Son.
How could you associate a mere creature in this way? Well, if you don't just stop at that sentence and read the next sentence, the same one identifies himself and says, and now glorify me,
Father, together with yourself, with the glory which I had in your presence before the world came into existence.
Nothing about knowledge which I had in your presence. The Son was in the presence of the
Father eternally and was glorious. That's what the scriptures state.
That's what allowing the scriptures to speak state. And in John 17 .3, you say, well, he's, no, he's, he's saying
Jesus, Jesus is saying that only the Father is God. No, Jesus is saying that he's not an atheist.
There is only one true God. The Father is one true
God. So is the Son. So is the Spirit. That's why they share the one name Yahweh.
Yahweh. Don't have time to develop it this evening, but someday I want to get into a discussion with a non or someone along the same lines.
Why doesn't there seem to be any knowledge in the part of the Quran of the actual divine name of God in the
Old and New Testaments? It doesn't seem like the author was aware of these things. Now, as you've seen this evening, we did it again,
Adnan. We didn't manage to come to an absolute agreement on everything in one debate. Isn't that shocking? What are these opportunities?
They're opportunities to require us to think, to hear from another perspective, to be challenged.
But you see, as a Christian, I can trust the Spirit of God to work with the
Word of God. And that's why I continue doing these things. And I've said this before, and it is not in any way, shape or form meant to be offensive.
It is absolutely the honest truth. I pray for Adnan. I pray for Adnan.
I pray for his happiness and his health. But this man knows, and every
Muslim in this audience needs to know, my ultimate desire and prayer for anyone is that you know
Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in your life. You know that's what I believe.
I haven't hidden that from you. I know that he would love to have me say the Shahada and submit to Islam.
I know what he wants. We can be honest about that without engaging in hatred toward one another.
Because as a Christian, there is no room, there can be no room in my heart for hatred toward anyone.
Jesus did not leave that room there. He takes it all up. I can't have hatred in there.
And so I hope this evening you have been challenged, and I hope especially you recognize, if you come from the
Islamic faith, my concern, my message, and my love for you. Thank you for being here this evening.