January 25, 2024 Show with Jerry Johnson on “One Man’s Journey Out From Pentecostalism”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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This is Chris Armisen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 25th day of January 2024.

I thank you all so very much for your continued prayers over my

Bell's Palsy, which I just recently developed, and it seems to be, for the first day, improving slightly.

I hope that nothing I say today sounds too annoying. You may not even recognize a lisp in my voice, but I am conscious of it because I know the way my mouth feels when

I speak. But I thank you all so much for your ongoing outpouring of prayer and concern for me, and I just thank you more than I can even describe or ever describe in the

English language how much you folks mean to me and how much it means to me that you constantly are letting me know how much

I mean to you and how much my show means to you. It's just a mind -blowing experience, and I can't even describe what it means to me.

I'm so grateful to you all and grateful to God for you all. But today is one of those people that I am very grateful to God for.

His name is Jerry Johnson. He is a returning guest to the program, one of my favorite guests to interview, and it of members in the

Iron Trip and Zion Radio listening audience who let me know that. Jerry is a world -renowned

Christian apologist and documentarian. He is probably most well -known for his involvement in the renowned documentary known as Amazing Grace, the

History and Theology of Calvinism. And today we're going to be talking about something very personal to Jerry.

We are talking about one man's journey out from Pentecostalism into Reformed Cessationism.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, my dear friend,

Jerry Johnson. Hey, Chris. How you doing, brother? I am doing well.

I'm sorry about that lag. I had to make sure I hit the unmute button.

So, by the way, I just wanted to tell you, I had just gotten off the phone with the

Pope and he told me that anybody that listens to this program is getting 10 ,000 years off their time in purgatory.

Well, they must not listen. He must not listen to the show because he'd be adding time in purgatory. If he actually listened.

Jerry, I think that you agree with me. I'm pretty confident you do. It would be a good idea to give a caveat here.

First, let me speak for myself. I have many

Pentecostal and charismatic brethren whom I love dearly, whose lives model the life of Christ far more vibrantly than my own, who

I have learned much from. And over the years, some

Pentecostal and charismatic pastors, and although I hate to use the word layman,

I just know that most people know what I'm referring to when I say layman, they have become my closest friends.

To name a couple, a very dear friend of mine, Pastor Jim Capo, who was for many years the pastor of the

Massapequa Church of God on Long Island, and he remains a friend.

He's retired from ministry. But he is also a five -point

Calvinist, and that is a rare thing, but it is a growing phenomenon amongst

Pentecostals and charismatics. When I was first saved in the 1980s, you could hardly find anybody who was both theologically

Reformed and charismatic or Pentecostal. But now it is not all that shocking. It's not that Reformed people who are cessationists are becoming

Pentecostals and charismatic. It's more that Arminian Pentecostals and charismatics are becoming

Calvinists. But I am not conducting this program with my guest today,

Jerry Johnson, to bash or broad brush or be mean -spirited toward Pentecostals and charismatics.

And I don't want to give the false impression that I think that they are all lost, that they are all heretics, and so on.

My main concern is when you open up the doorway to modern extra -biblical revelation, you are opening up the door to all kinds of dangerous ideas and teachings and even damnable heresies, even if the men themselves have not, as a result, adopted anything that is that dangerous or damnable.

It has happened, and we have the Word of Faith Pentecostal movement as an example. I do not extend the same arm of brotherhood to those folks because that is a

Pentecostalism on steroids that does delve into some damnable teachings such as Christ not being deity when he walked this earth,

Christ becoming a demonic being on Calvary when he died for the sins of his people,

Christ becoming the first born -again Christian in hell, and we could go on and on.

Speaking things into existence, just like those in the occult believe, and I've done multiple programs specifically on the heresies of the

Word of Faith movement, but not everybody in Pentecostalism or the charismatic movement is

Word of Faith. In fact, many openly and vociferously and boldly condemn those things just as intensely as I do.

But there's my piece. Do you want to add anything to your own caveat before we start?

Yeah. Actually, brother, what I was going to say is let's just go ahead and start with my experience, my testimony, if you will.

Sure. Well, let's hear it. All right. And I'm afraid, speaking about this, because you've had, or I think you've had

Kosti in on your program. Yes. All right. And Kosti would be much better speaking about this than me.

He has a different story, though. You have your own story. He was very involved in it.

But when I was about 11 years old, my parents were going to a charismatic

Word of Faith -style church. All right? And I went along not because I was a

Christian. I hadn't even become a Christian by that point. But Susie Q went there to that church, and I thought

Susie Q was cute. So that's the reason I went. I had ulterior motives.

But. Well, obviously, Susie Q didn't matter all that much because your beautiful bride.

I didn't marry Susie Q. Yes, your beautiful bride now is Tracy. Yes. Yes. And Benny Hinn was, they used to say

Benny Hinn was an evangelist out of the church. Now, I'm assuming that means they supported him.

He did preach there a lot. He was there a lot. It was called Brandon Tabernacle in Brandon, Florida.

And I can remember many times, and I want to make sure

I don't want to go down too many paths. I can remember. I'll tell you one teaching

I can remember of Benny Hinn. All right. He told us that God the

Father was in heaven. And Jesus was in heaven. And the

Holy Spirit was in us. And the only way Jesus could have communion with the

Holy Spirit was through us. So we had to open ourselves up to the Holy Spirit.

And of course, I recognize that. That's just goofy. Yes. But I believe that even after I became a

Christian, I believe that. And what had happened was years later,

I had become a Christian, and we were living in a small town in Georgia, and they had a church of God.

It was a Pentecostal church. And let me say on record, the pastor of that church was and is a very godly man.

If I could be half the godly man he was, I might be something. So I'm not saying he wasn't a

Christian. But I started going to that church because, you know,

I had grown up in the charismatic movement, and we were very friendly with the Pentecostal movement.

And so it was kind of the only place to go. And Tracy and I started going there.

And numerous times, let me go back to the charismatic church.

Numerous times, the youth group there, we had people come in.

They would pray for us to get the gift of tongues. They wanted us to speak in tongues.

They would pray over us and prophesy over us. And I always thought

I'm an open vessel if God wants to use me, but I'm not going to fake it.

And so I never spoke in tongues, never did. And when

I went to the Pentecostal church in that small town in Georgia, they did the same thing.

They prayed over me. They prophesied over me. They laid hands on me. They anointed me with oil.

And I was the same way. If God, I was a very open vessel. If God, and I defended it.

I believed in speaking in tongues at that time, even though it had never happened to me.

And my attitude was, if God wants to do it through me, praise the

Lord, but I'm not going to fake it. And that was the key thing. I wasn't going to fake it.

But, you know, eventually I started studying the gift of tongues because I was really confused.

Why was it not happening to me? And that was something

I had to deal with. And one brother shared with me Matthew 7, 9, 11, which says,

Or what man is there among you, if the son asked you for a loaf, would give him a stone?

How much more, or if he asked for a fish, would give him a steak? If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father, or your father who is in heaven, give to those that ask him?

Well, I had asked for the gift of tongues numerous times. Why didn't that happen to me?

And what they wanted to do, when I say they had all those people come in, they had one lady

I remember distinctively. She was going to teach us how to speak in tongues.

Well, if it's a miracle gift from God, why do you have to teach people?

You know, you don't. Right, like on the day of Pentecost. It's like trying to teach people to walk on water.

You can't do it, you know. And so, I started really having a problem with the doctrine of speaking in tongues the way it was taught in charismatic

Pentecostal churches. So, I eventually, just like I said, dug in the scripture, and the more

I found out, the more I looked at it, the more I looked at the Greek, and I'm going to say this right now, the way charismatics and Pentecostals practice speaking in tongues is not biblical.

That is not the biblical model at all. We all have to agree that speaking in tongues is in the

Bible. It happened in Acts 2. Was it the same thing that's going on in Pentecostal charismatic churches today?

And I don't believe it is. And of course, we have to just remind our audience that there is a fairly wide diversity amongst those that profess to be

Pentecostal or charismatic that they do not all practice sign gifts in the same manner, nor attach the identical beliefs to those gifts as others do.

There are differences in approach and in theological positions on these things, even under the umbrella of Pentecostalism and charismatic.

And by the way, I think it would probably be wise for us to define those two things.

From what I understand, Pentecostalism is typically referring to the major denominations that came out of the early 19th century movement of signs, wonders, and the sign gifts being so -called restored to the church.

And within Pentecostalism, you have a set of doctrinal beliefs outside of those unique things about the sign gifts that must be adhered to, and that's why you do have different denominations because some do differ from other churches, like you have some that believe that foot washing is an ordinance, and you know, we could go on and on.

But charismatic is really applied to any denomination of Christians that has adopted an understanding that the sign gifts continue in the

New Covenant even to the 21st century, and therefore you could have

Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Anglican, Congregationalist, Lutheran, and so on churches that are charismatic.

Am I making sense here? Am I accurate? No, that is correct. And actually, the modern charismatic movement started in the

Episcopalian church. It was a guy called Francis McNutt.

I actually call him Francis the Nut. But I've read all of his books, and they, you know, it was all experience.

It was all emotionalism. And I will say, I tell people emotions don't follow correct doctrine.

I'm sorry, emotions don't lead correct doctrine. They follow correct doctrine.

So I'm not against emotionalism, but it is not my main thing that I focus on.

I focus on the truth. And before I had my stroke, I used to preach a lot and do a lot of conferences and stuff.

And one of the things I used to do was I would preach this sermon called The Word of God and the

Child of God. And I would start out by saying, turn to 2 Timothy 3 .16.

All emotions are given by the mouth of God or the word of God, breath of God.

And no, it doesn't say emotions. And then I would go to Habakkuk 4 .6.

My people perish, or 6 .4. My people perish for a lack of emotions.

It doesn't say that. It actually says my people perish for a lack of knowledge.

And it goes on to explain that knowledge is in the word of God, not in emotionalism, not in experience.

Jesus did not say man shall live by every experience that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

He says every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. The emphasis for us is always on God's word, not on experience or emotionalism.

So you are obviously identifying yourself as a former

Pentecostal, but you never experienced. I never experienced, although I would have defended it.

At that time, I would have defended it. And how were you treated by leaders and other congregation members for not manifesting the gift of tongues?

They used to say to me, I needed to wait on God. I needed to wait on the Holy Spirit.

He'll give it to me one day. That's another difference that mainline

Pentecostals and Charismatics have with the cult known as the United Pentecostal Church International, which is an anti -Trinitarian cult.

And they believe if you do not manifest tongues, you are not regenerate. That is true.

They do believe that. But just so you know, besides numerous cults, we're talking about the form of tongues as their practice and Charismatic and Pentecostal denominations.

And we said, or I said, I didn't think they were biblical. I don't believe they are biblical. There are a lot of guys.

I read a Assembly of God pastor had written a book against oneness

Pentecostals, and it was great. And he said in there, at one point,

I was talking with a guy who had been a former Jehovah's Witness, and his name was

Dwayne Mignone. And I said, the only problem with the book, because we were thinking about republishing it at one point.

I said, Dwayne, the only problem with the book is the guy says it's evident that they've spoken in tongues.

So we cannot deny that there are brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm one that I happen to believe that the doctrine of the

Trinity is an essential aspect of saving faith.

Now, I'm not saying you got to understand everything. But besides the oneness

Pentecostals, there are many world religions that practice tongues like Pentecostals and Charismatics.

The Hindus do. The Buddhists do. The Sufis do. There are a bunch of them out there.

Mormons. Yeah, Mormons. And, you know, so all of a sudden, that is not a requirement for believing that somebody is saved.

It is making Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior. Okay, let's pick up on your testimony when we return from our first commercial break.

If anybody would like to ask Jerry Johnson a question about his departure from Pentecostalism and entering into theologically reformed cessationism, meaning that the sign gifts have ceased after the death of the apostles.

Please join us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. I could readily understand this topic evoking personal and private questions.

You may be still in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church. You're starting to question what is going on around you.

You may even be a pastor who has come to question the sign gifts being perpetual today and, in fact, may have even already personally abandoned them, and yet your fellow elders and the rest of your congregation have not.

In fact, I'm not going to mention him, but I know one brother who is exactly in that position.

But whatever the case may be, we will respect your request to remain anonymous. But if you're asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

We'll be right back with Jerry Johnson. Do not go away. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

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That's RoyalDiadem .com. We're now back with Jerry Johnson. We are talking about his journey out from Pentecostalism into theologically reformed cessationism.

If you have a question, send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question is about a personal and private issue. I also wanted to say something in loving memory of another

Pentecostal pastor who became a very extremely close friend of mine,

Al Stein, the former pastor, while he was living on this earth, of the

Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island. Al was tragically killed in an automobile accident a number of years ago.

But he was a frequent guest on the early Iron Trip and Zion Radio program broadcasting out of WNYG and WGBB radio on Long Island.

And he was a remarkable brother. He was a mentor to me in many ways. He ultimately, although he was not theologically reformed when

I first met him, he ultimately did become a five -point Calvinist. And he was able to maintain his position as a pastor in the

Assembly of God, even though he believed that a true Christian could not lose their salvation.

That seemed to be the main concern of the Assemblies of God that they disagreed over.

And he had to sign a paper saying that he denied eternal security.

I think they may have even had to do this annually. And Al rather said,

I believe in evidential security, meaning that if you are truly born again, you will give evidence of it, you will bear fruit.

Because many people, unfortunately, misunderstand that teaching of eternal security and think that that automatically means a

Christian can live like the devil for his entire life without repenting and still go to heaven. And unfortunately, the reason they believe that is that there are many advocates of eternal security who teach that, including the late

Charles Stanley. Yeah, his book. Yes. His book was terrible.

Yes. And on top of that, Al Stein loved the ministry of John MacArthur.

And you can't come up with a more strict cessationist than John MacArthur. And even to the point where Al told me he saw the videos of the

Strange Fire Conference, which was all about a very strong critique opposing

Pentecostal and charismatic teachings. And he even said that, as Al Stein said,

I agreed with about 95 percent of what was said. His only complaint was he thought that the conference was not nuanced enough to really show the fact that there were differences amongst

Pentecostal and charismatic advocates. And that was

Al's opinion. But it didn't stop him from recommending Grace to You and John MacArthur's ministry wholeheartedly.

So I just wanted to bring up Al as being somebody I truly loved and respected, and I truly honor his memory.

But if you could pick up where you left off in your journey out of Pentecostalism.

All right. So what happened was I was at the small Pentecostal church in that little town in Georgia.

And like I said, I was prayed over and prophesied over and anointed with oil and drug to the front of the church and never spoke in tongues.

Subsequently, I had left because somebody had proved to me what at that time

I believed was the doctrine of eternal security, which I now believe was perseverance of the saints.

So I'm not to get in that too long, but I agree. Eternal security is only one half.

I like that idea. What did you call it? Conditional security? No, he called it evidential security.

That's evidential security. I like that. That's a good term. But anyway,

I left the church, started going to a Baptist church. But I will tell you, still at that point, probably a year,

I would have defended speaking in tongues until a guy said to me, if that is the word of God, which

I believe that at that time, then why are you not writing it down, canonizing it and sticking it in the backs of your

Bibles? And I thought, man, that's a good point. And so that is what really got me to start studying the doctrine of eternal tongues.

And unfortunately, I read a book by John MacArthur.

It really messed me up. That's when I started digging it into a deeper.

I've got every book I could on the doctrine of defending speaking in tongues.

And the problem was, I already read MacArthur's book. And my thought was, well, he's got to be lying.

That was my thought. I was actually trying to prove speaking in tongues as the way the

Charismatics and Pentecostals practiced it. But when that brother said that to me,

I was like, all right, that's a valid point. So I started studying it out. I had read

John MacArthur's book. Every book I read that was pro speaking in tongues,

MacArthur had already dealt with, and he did critical Greek commentary.

And I was like, you know, I already know the answer to that, because they were talking about experience.

And contrary to popular belief, experience is not the best teacher.

The word of God is the best teacher. Now. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

What did you say? I was going to ask something, but you can continue if you'd like. Go ahead and ask.

One of the main divisions between Pentecostals and cessationists is an understanding of exactly what the baptism of or with the

Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is. And the mainline denominations of Pentecostalism, like Assembly of God, Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee, and others, they believe that speaking in tongues is the sign, capital

T -H -E, sign. That you have the gift of the Holy Spirit. Right.

And obviously, cessationists disagree with that, because these same

Pentecostals who say it's a necessary sign and the sign of the baptism of the

Holy Spirit, they don't believe like the cult oneness

Pentecostals do. They do not believe that those who are not speaking in tongues are damned or unregenerated.

That is correct. But they still believe that they're not baptized with or by the

Holy Spirit. Can you articulate what is the nuanced difference between Pentecostals and cessationists over that?

No, I can't. I'm sorry. I wish I could, because I've got to let you know, what you see there in Acts, to me, this is to me, the greatest miracle is not that they were speaking in tongues.

The greatest miracle is that you had a group of ragtag disciples at that time who were becoming apostles, who were scared to death.

And all of a sudden, they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, and they became bold.

And they spoke the gospel. Now, one of the things, again, in Acts chapter 2, and it doesn't take,

I mean, when I was in seminary, we actually went through Acts chapter 2. And chapter 1 and chapter 2.

And one of the things that they taught us that I really believe was all the textual breaks in Acts chapter 1 and Acts chapter 2.

What I found astronomically fascinating was that most of the time, the

Pentecostal Charismatics believed that 120 people poured out of the upper room, which

I don't even know how you would get 120 people in an upper room. And they all spoke in tongues.

But if you read critically Acts chapter 1 and Acts chapter 2, it was only, at that time, the 11.

Remember, Judas had died. So, it was just the disciples who later became the apostles.

It's never recorded, even, let me think.

Yeah, it might have been Matthias also, so the 12. But it wasn't women.

It wasn't the men that was with them. It was only the apostles that spoke in tongues.

And so, what do I believe about that today?

Because I'm a cessationist, I believe that a person, when they receive

Christ as Lord and Savior, they are baptized with the Holy Spirit. And it is quite bizarre to me that you would claim that speaking in tongues is the sign of baptism with the

Holy Spirit, when that sign can be easily faked. It's strange to me that somebody would elevate that activity as being the sign of anything important, when it can be easily, easily, easily faked.

Well, yes, it can be easily faked. It can be. And that's why in Acts chapter 2, you have like 15 dialects present that day, and every man understood them in their own language.

They weren't talking some angelic language or some type of gibberish.

And so, Acts chapter 2 has no bearing on 1

Corinthians 12 or 1 Corinthians 14. Now, people will ask me, do you believe

God heals today? Yes, I do. I've seen it. I'm a living example of it.

I wasn't supposed to live after I had my stroke. Why did

God let me have a stroke? Why does God let me live? I'm surprised every morning

I wake up and He hasn't killed me. Because I'm in continual, impotent, manifested rebellion against my

God. And I do it with my thoughts, with my words, and my deeds.

And the only thing I can plead is the blood of the Lord Jesus. That's it.

Nothing else. Why am

I not dead is a better question. Actually, that was something I had asked Dr.

R .C. Sproul when we did the Amazing Grace documentary. And he said, people are asking the wrong question.

People need to ask, why isn't God killing us? You know,

He should be. He should be. But, I'm sorry. I went down a rabbit trail.

No, no, no. No, you haven't, actually. One thing I would like to ask you is, what were you told was the benefit behind the experience of tongues, especially since it was broadened, or should

I say, is broadened beyond what we believe the New Testament gift was.

Because we believe that it was for the very purpose of evangelism to people of tongues other than ours that we did not innately understand.

That was an obvious purpose. But when you have a private situation, where it's just a private prayer language, or a sign to people around you, what is really the benefit behind this?

I remember one dear brother, I haven't seen him in years, but Pentecostal brother, insisted that the gift of the

Holy Spirit, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as Pentecostals and Charismatics understand it, makes

Christians much more bold and fearless disciples and ambassadors for Christ.

And I said, well, point in church history where that's true. I mean, how many martyrs were burned alive?

Even women and children voluntarily going to their death who never had this gift.

So that's just an assumption and a belief that really has no evidence.

Are you going to say that Pentecostals on average are somehow superior Christians in their lives to non -Pentecostals and Charismatics?

I don't see it. You know what, brother, that is something I warn people about, even when it comes to Calvinism.

Why do I believe in Calvinism, which I believe is the gospel, and John Wesley didn't?

Does that make me more holy, holier than John Wesley? I don't believe so.

Oh, what is his name? George Whitefield one time was asked by somebody, will we see

John Wesley in heaven? And George Whitefield said, no, we won't. And the reason we won't is we'll be so far back from our father's throne, and he will be so close, we can't behold him at that distance.

That's right, and in fact Whitefield requested before he died that John Wesley preach at his funeral, which he did.

And you know what, it's just what I call the obnoxious

Calvinist. Now I do believe in Calvinism. I believe in the five points of Calvinism.

I believe just like the Synod of Dort spelled it out. I believe that is the gospel.

The thing I praise the Lord for is that God did not call us to be theologians and scholars before he saved us.

He saves us in spite of our theology, if you will. And so why didn't

John Wesley believe in what was called the five points of Calvinism?

I don't know. I really don't know, but I do believe the man was a Christian. He believed that Christ alone saved him, and so was something outside of himself.

He believed that. If you would have said to me back when I was Arminian with a brain full of mush, if you would have told me

I believe in work salvation, I would have fought you tooth and nail. No, I do not. Now I realize that if I believe my faith saved me, and I'm saying my faith instead of it being a gift of God's grace that he saves me through faith, and it's his grace that saves me through faith in Christ alone.

You know, like I said, why did Wesley believe that or didn't believe that?

Why did I not believe that at first? I didn't, but now I do.

I understand it. So I would say don't be the obnoxious

Calvinist that feels that they have to go around and convert everybody to Calvinism.

That's not what we're called to do. We're called to testify to Jesus Christ.

And you had asked me, what was I told? Now I could tell you what I was told.

I don't know if this goes for every charismatic and Pentecostal. I was told that there are things that I don't know that I'm not conscious of that need to be prayed about.

And the Holy Spirit is going to pray through me about those things.

That's what I was told. You know, like I said,

I don't know if every charismatic and Pentecostal believes that. And I think it'd probably be also good to insert here one of the reasons that Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement even came to be.

It is largely due to the errors, the serious, egregious errors of the church that had become lifeless, overly formal and robotic, dry, impotent.

And even if you want to introduce the heresies of the higher criticism movement, which began to deny essential truths of the scriptures, including that the miracles ever took place, ever.

And you had this group of Christians who tenaciously clung to the inerrancy and accuracy and historicity of the

Bible. They just didn't understand how these things came to cease that took place in the first century.

So in order for them to maintain that the Bible was true, they believed we must be able to experience these things today.

And let me pick up where we just left off there, because we have to go to our midway break right now. Once again, if anybody wants to join us with your own question, send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

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Before I return to Jerry Johnson, I just have a couple of announcements to make. First of all, if you really love this show, folks, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, you look forward to hearing it every day, you look forward to hearing guests that you may not hear anywhere else and topics that are rarely discussed anywhere else, well, please help us to continue to survive.

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically solid church, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I may be able to help you find a church close to you, as I have done with many people all over the world in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience, sometimes even finding churches within a couple of minutes from where our listeners live.

That may be you too if you are without a solid church home, so send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in your questions to Jerry Johnson on his journey out from Pentecostalism into theologically reformed cessationism.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before I go to any listener questions, Jerry, could you please continue with your testimony?

Yeah, let me say this. And I'm going to ask your listeners, if they're driving, don't write it down or try to write it down.

Go back and listen to the program once it's posted on the Internet.

But when I was in seminary, I had a professor of New Testament, and he used to tell us, you have to make sure you're understanding the language of what the book of the

New Testament was written for. And he used to say, in the Gospels, we have the proclamation of Christ.

In Acts, we have the narration of Christ. In the epistles, we have the explanation of Christ.

And in Revelation, we have the consummation of Christ. So you've got proclamation, narration, explanation, and consummation.

And he said, you've got to be careful, because a lot of times, what the Pentecostals and Charismatics will want to do is they will want to build a whole theology around the book of Acts, which was 34 chapters written, taken place of 27 years.

It's very scanty. It's telling you what happened. It's not telling you why it happened.

And what you need to do is you need to go to the epistles, which are the didactic part of the

New Testament, and find a doctrine in there, taught in there. And that you do not find the gift of tongues explained, except in 1

Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14. But in 1 Corinthians 14, it's literally an unknown language.

You know, it's not the heteros glossolea that you see in Acts chapter 2, which was a known language.

But in Acts chapter 14, it was an unknown language. And you've got to remember what he says, though I speak with tongues of men and angels, that doesn't mean there's an angelic tongue or an angelic language.

That is hyperbole. It's like saying, when pigs fly,

I will eat the chocolate cake. Well, pigs are going to fly. You know, so the thing is, they're making a whole theology out of the book of Acts, which doesn't explain what's going on in their churches.

And, you know, I used to ask people, what is it when you're speaking in tongues? And they would say, well, it's a word of knowledge.

It's a foreign language. It's something you don't understand. You know, the Holy Spirit is just speaking through you.

And like I said, when that guy asked me that question, if it is the word of God, if it is the word of God, why are you not writing it down, canonizing it, and sticking it in the backs of your

Bibles? Right. And in fact, if you don't understand what language is coming to your mind and out of your mouth, how are you to know it's not demonic?

I mean, if you don't even understand what's happening, especially amongst a group that theologically, at least many believe a true

Christian can become demon possessed. So, yeah. But anyway, let me go to at least one listener for now.

All right. We have an old friend of Iron Trip and Zion Radio who actually was frequently for a number of years, my co -host on a regular basis.

All right. Buzz, Buzz Taylor in Fitchburg, Massachusetts.

You sure it's not Buzz Lightyear? I'm pretty sure. I'm sorry, Buzz. I've seen pictures of both of them, and it's definitely not

Buzz Lightyear. It's not him. All right. All right. Buzz says, haven't heard Jerry in a few years.

So good to hear him again. Love the subject as we have similar experiences.

Acts chapter 215 says there were 120 people there together. Please explain why only the apostles spoke with tongues.

How much time elapsed between chapter one and chapter two? You know, that's a good point.

And I don't know if we have time to get in it. I haven't got Acts chapter one and two pulled up.

But I'll tell you what I'll do. When we get off the phone, is this something for him, or is it something he believes

I should explain? Well, I'm assuming he would like the whole audience to hear. But, you know, you don't have to right now.

Yeah. The thing is, if you go through there, let me try to do it real fast.

And I am going to pull Acts to New American Standard Bible.

And while you're doing that, I'm going to give our audience our e -mail address. If you'd like to join Buzz with a question of your own, our e -mail address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Yeah, one thing

I would say, if you look at Acts chapter two, verse 14. But Peter, taking a stand with the other 11, raised his voice and declared to them, men of Judea.

Now he's saying, with the other 11, that makes 12 with Peter. And they were the ones that were speaking in tongues.

He explains what they were doing. And again, I had mentioned the textural breaks in there.

And the thing is, I don't have time really to go into all the textural breaks.

But let me, if you look at men of Judea who were there, go through it very carefully and look at who the 12 were.

And then the mere fact that it mentions them speaking in tongues and then having the miracle, it wasn't the 120.

Okay, well, thanks, Buzz. I look forward to seeing you in your next visit to Pennsylvania and praying that God continues to use you in powerful ways in your new church in Fittsburg, Massachusetts, as a member who leads many studies and other things.

I'm so thrilled to hear that your gifts are being used. God bless you, dear friend. We have an anonymous listener who says,

Do you believe that if a Reformed Church's leader, an elder or a deacon, informs his fellow leaders that he has become a non -cessationist but promises to keep his participation in these understandings private, is it okay for this leader to remain in his position, or do you believe he must be either removed or resign?

I would say this. I would say if he's not going to teach it,

I would take it. Because you got to remember, most of the non -cessationists,

I believe, are holding to a doctrine that is goofy. And I would say that would be up to the elders of the church.

Now, how would I vote? Really, my point being is, suppose we're

Presbyterian and somebody says, I no longer believe in paedo -communion.

Then they really need to leave. You mean paedo -baptism. Most Presbyterians do not believe in paedo -communion.

I'm sorry, I keep doing that, brother. I said that to my pastor the other day.

Paedo -baptism. My bad. Suppose he stood up and said,

I don't believe in paedo -baptism. And he was Presbyterian. I now believe in credo -baptism.

Then he really needs to go to a Baptist church. And the reverse would be true, a Reformed Baptist who comes to the paedo -baptist church.

I would agree. And so it's not an issue of us being mean.

It's just an issue of where is he more comfortable and what does he believe?

What does he believe the scriptures are saying? Now, if he believed in paedo -baptism,

I think he's wrong. But I'm not going to break fellowship with him.

But I don't believe he should be teaching at the church. But that's really an issue for the elders of that church.

Yes, and it's also, I would think that many cessationist

Reformed pastors, or even cessationist non -Reformed pastors and elders, when they're considering this, you know, there are different levels of non -cessationism.

So it may be a completely hypothetical position that the person has come to.

They just don't want to 100 % rule out things that cessationists believe have completely ceased in the first century.

They may agree that most people speaking in tongues are making it up, either consciously or unconsciously.

So I think a lot of that has to do with it. I think we folks, especially from the

Reformed camp, have to be very careful not to overstep the boundaries of prohibiting people from being

Berean. Would you agree with me? Yes, I would.

And my dog just walked into my office. So if it jumps up here and starts licking me, it does that quite a bit.

Let me tell you one thing. And we talked about this last night.

When I left the whole movement, this was probably like 10 years after I had left it,

I was talking with about five people that used to go to that church,

Brandon Tabernacle. And I talked to them because we had seen that laughing revival at, what do they call it?

It was in Lakeland, Florida. Yeah, and I think it began in Canada with Rodney Howard Brown.

No, it actually began in Lakeland, Florida, but it did begin with Rodney Howard Brown, who

I call Rodney Howard Clown. Yes, and I'm thinking of the Toronto Blessing, which I think is… Yes, you're thinking of Toronto Blessing, which was part of the

Brownsville Assembly. It started in Brownsville in Pensacola, Florida.

And anyway, I didn't want to get off on the laughing revival.

I was talking with these people, and there was like four men and one woman.

And we were sitting down, and I said to them, I saw y 'all a lot of times speaking in tongues.

Now, at this point, I didn't believe in the way the church practiced tongues.

I believe it was extremely unbiblical. And I sat there, and I pushed them on it.

And I said, please tell me, did you really speak in tongues? Did you really believe that there was some type of supernatural power speaking through you?

And every person, to a T, said we faked it. Wow. And I asked them,

I said, why do you think they did that? And one guy said, because we didn't want to be viewed as less than everybody else.

Wow. And I called that spiritual correctness.

Years ago, I was talking with Hank Hanegraaff, and I had told him about this incident.

I don't remember if it made it in his book. I can't even remember what it was called.

Counterfeit revival? Yeah, I think that was it. And we had gone to China together, and I was telling

Hank about this. And I said, you know, it's really astounding to me. You've got political correctness, where you want to believe the right thing according to the majority.

Well, the same thing happens in a lot of these charismatic Pentecostal churches.

They have spiritual correctness. And so they want to do that, so they're viewed as being holy.

That was my conclusion. By the way, since you brought up Hank Hanegraaff, I think it's my duty just to make a brief announcement that I believe that my listeners should stay clear away from Hank Hanegraaff today.

Yes, I would agree. He has apostatized into Eastern Orthodoxy, and that's not a light matter.

It's a different gospel, no matter what Hank may say. And it's also filled with idolatrous beliefs and practices.

The worship of images and saints, even though they swear that they are not worshiping, they are indeed worshiping images and saints, no matter what they say they are doing.

But anyway. Also, let me do this. I see one here on Amazon, just one, so somebody ought to grab it quickly.

Dr. Curtis I. Crenshaw. The foreword was actually done by John MacArthur.

But he wrote a book called Man as God, the Word Faith Movement. Word of Faith Movement.

Wow. And it was a great book. It was one of the best books I had ever read.

But what Curtis Crenshaw said in this book that I thought was really appropriate and really needed, and people need to hear this.

If your tongue's manifestation says the same thing as Scripture, then it is not needed.

If your tongue's manifestation is equal to Scripture, it is not authoritative.

And if it adds to Scripture, then it should be rejected. And I thought that was a great kind of paraphrase of the whole movement.

And something that I thought was really good in explaining words of knowledge, words of prophecy, anything like that.

They have no authority if they're adding to Scripture. They're not needed if they're the same as Scripture.

And if they're less than Scripture, they're not authoritative at all. Right. And Rodney Howard Brown, who you brought up, that man,

I believe, is completely demonic. This is not just a peripheral difference of opinion on things.

I saw him twice at a gathering. The reason I did is because the first time

I did, the general manager of the radio station I worked for for 15 years wanted me to accompany him to witness for himself with his own eyes and ears

Rodney Howard Brown, because so many people in our audience apparently were interested in him.

And he wanted to see firsthand what was going on. So I accompanied him. And also I saw him a second time because a pastor friend also wanted to have that same firsthand knowledge of Brown.

And we went as skeptics. Now, what Rodney Howard Brown did at one of those meetings was very interesting.

He started mocking. Now, keep in mind, I'm saying he started mocking

Pentecostals and charismatics. And basically over the the commonality amongst

Pentecostals and charismatics for being demon phobic. And Rodney Howard Brown was saying,

I'm so sick and tired of Pentecostals and charismatics, praying demons out of the room when

I go to their churches to speak. And he said, you don't need to pray demons out of the room when

I'm around. When I enter a room, the demons scatter. And in my opinion, this man was was saying things to make his audience lay down their guard so that they would be open to any kind of crazy and bizarre manifestation that they could welcome into their minds and hearts and including demonic activity.

I'm convinced of that. That man is as lost as lost can be.

I'm going to tell you something. When in Lakeland, Florida, and I can't remember the name of the church, the pastor's name was

Coral Strader. But Rodney Howard Brown was doing his laughing revivals.

They had just started. And a friend and I had gone to one.

We'd actually gone because I had talked to Dave Hunt. And Dave asked me, can you go there and tell me what's going on?

And I said, sure. So we went there and we laughed the whole time.

Did we laugh because of the Holy Spirit? I don't believe so. We were laughing at some of those goofy people.

I couldn't believe what they were doing. And they were doing that. And it was actually crazy.

And I reported back to Dave. And let me just say this. If Dave knew I'd become a five -point

Calvinist, he would have died right then. Yes, he was.

I never told him. He was a vehement anti -Calvinist, but now we know.

Yes, he was. Now we know that he is more of a Calvinist than you and I. Yes. He is in glory, for those of our listeners who don't know.

And I will tell you this. Even though I believe Dave's theology was like being in kindergarten,

I will tell you, one time John Ankerberg told me that Dave Hunt would take a three -hour layover in the middle of the night just to save him $75.

And, I mean, he was a very gracious man. He really was. And let's see.

Let's go on to another listener question. I was just looking at it.

Oh, okay. I love this name. In fact, I've never heard of a person with this name.

Galilee in West Hempstead, Long Island, New York. And Galilee asks,

Can non -Pentecostal and charismatic churches have the liberty to have much fellowship with those churches that are

Pentecostal and charismatic, as long as they are not delving into the heresies, including those of the

Oneness Pentecostal or Word of Faith movement? All right. I don't know if I understand the question.

In other words, you're a member of a very strong cessationist Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist church.

There's a Pentecostal church down the road. They want to participate in some event that does not cause you to violate your conscience or beliefs.

And I'm using my own words here to describe what I believe Galilee is asking. Can we get involved with that church, with anything, as long as it doesn't have a conflict specifically with our cessationist understanding of the

Scriptures? I don't know how to answer that. I will tell you this.

Years ago, there was a large Pentecostal church up near Cleveland, Tennessee, and they were having

Dr. Dwayne Gish. Now, he was with Creationist Research Institute in California.

And they were going to have him speak. And I went. I didn't have a problem with it.

I went to that church to hear Dr. Dwayne Gish. And I remember

I asked a friend of mine who was an independent Baptist if he would do that.

And he said no. And I said, why not? And he said, I wouldn't want people to see me going into that church, knowing they don't believe in eternal security and they don't speak or they believe in speaking in tongues.

I thought that was a very limited view. Yeah, I agree. You know, just like I said at the very beginning,

I know Charismatics and Pentecostals. I know people. And see, if somebody comes to me and says,

I believe in a personal prayer language, and they want to do that in the privacy of their own home or in their prayer closet,

I'm not going to deny them that. I think it's wrong, but I'm not going to deny it. If they ask me point blank what

I thought of it, I tell them I think it was wrong and here's why. If they don't ask me and they don't believe they're adding the scripture in any way, shape or form, then what they want to do in the privacy of their prayer closet is up to them.

I'm not going to make it a requirement for fellowship. Yeah, and I just thought of another example of somebody who is both charismatic and reformed,

Wayne Grudem. You know, am I to say that I would never be involved in an event that he was participating in?

And as much as I have very serious disagreements with Sam Storms, he is theologically reformed and he's brilliant.

He did an excellent lecture on the life of Jonathan Edwards, an excellent lecture.

Right. And so, you know, I in fact, the churches that I've been most closely affiliated with have actually, on some occasions, had charismatic pastors who were also believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace preach.

They've been involved in conferences and also have done pulpit supply. And of course, they never brought those issues up when they were behind the pulpit.

And that's probably a rare thing. Most 1689 confessional reformed

Baptists would probably never do that. Right. But I even know of a vehemently anti charismatic and Pentecostal church that's not

Calvinist, fundamentalist, independent King James only fundamentalist church that invited a charismatic man who is a historian on American and church history to speak.

I was really actually surprised by that. But there you go. You have a measure of grace being extended even by a group not well known for being graceful and grace.

Brother, let me tell you this. As a reformed Presbyterian, I've been reformed

Presbyterian since 1992, and I have been invited to a lot of Pentecostal churches over the years.

And when they invite me, I will not go there and use labels, if you will.

I will teach the theology, some of it, because most of them don't know the theology anyway.

If you go up to a Pentecostal and ask them, do you believe God is sovereign? They'll say yes.

You know, do they know what it means? Probably not. Right. But that would go for any

Arminian. Yeah. Or most. In fact, you have Arminians today using a term that really was exclusively used years ago by Calvinists, the term substitutionary atonement, because because the logical implications of that is if Jesus died as a substitute for anybody, they are going to be saved.

Right. And they don't see the disconnect there by using that term, even though they believe

Jesus died for every single human that ever lived, most of whom will go to hell. So it's kind of ironic.

If you remember in the Amazing Grace documentary, we quoted

J. Kenneth Greider. Yes, I remember that. You remember that. And the thing was, a lot of Arminians will say

Christ died for your sins. Well, if he died, he made payment for them.

Right. And they will believe that. But Kenneth Greider chastised his fellow

Arminians for saying that. He said, no, Arminianism doesn't believe that.

So anyway, if I get somebody that wants me to come speak on, say,

I don't do it anymore because I get tired. But if I got if I if I get a church that wants me to speak on why did

Christ have to die? Yeah, I will do it. I don't care. I mean,

I believe it's something they need to hear. Right. Well, I think the one I hopefully they never asked me to speak on cessation.

So I would probably be run out, you know. Well, unless they wanted to have a an event where they had multiple views being presented, that'd be interesting.

Right. I have been I have been run out of one church. And I mean,

I was literally run out. Really? Why? Yeah. Somebody stood up halfway in my sermon.

It was an elder. And he said, why don't you just leave? Oh, yeah. He heard about you supporting

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. No, this was like 25 years ago.

And I was stupid enough and naive enough. Let me let me take it back probably 30 years ago.

And it was I'm not going to say what kind of church it was, but come to find out they were pretty liberal.

And I didn't know they didn't believe in the inspiration of an authority of Scripture.

And the pastor really should have told me that he did. He was a graduate of a school that believed that.

And he believed it. And he wasn't there. And I started speaking on I used to do a sermon.

I think I told you on Second Timothy 316, the word of God and the child of God.

And I didn't know he they didn't believe that. I didn't know it at all. And the guy stood up and he was the head elder.

And he says, why don't you just leave? Wow. By the way, I also want to mention that a group of guys that I highly respect that I've interviewed on the show who are speakers at the open air theology conference, which is a theologically reformed conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

Their next one's coming up in February. One of their speakers, even though every other man, to my knowledge, is a cessationist.

One of their speakers is Matt Slick. He's I know he's reformed, but he is charismatic.

Oh, I did not know that. Oh, yeah. And and also I just recently. In fact,

I think it was yesterday or no day before yesterday. I had Paul J. Lee on my show, who is a reformed, charismatic pastor in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

And he is a brilliant historian and expert on the Salem witch trials. I would not hesitate for a second having him speak on that issue at a church where I was a member.

So let me ask you this. Going back to Matt, does he still have his radio program?

I believe he does. Yes. I'm almost certain of it. Yeah. I mean, it was probably like 2010, 2011, 2012.

I used to be a frequent guest on his radio program. Oh, wow. Well, I will tell him you said hello, but we have to go to our final break right now.

And if you have a question, send in your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. Chris Arnsen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Jerry Johnson. Please do not go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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We're now back with Jerry Johnson discussing his journey out of Pentecostalism, and Cindy in Findlay, Ohio wants you to know,

Jerry, Matt Slick's call -in show airs Monday through Friday, 6 to 7 p .m.

Eastern Time. So it's still on the air. And we also have

Tucker in Stewart Manor, New York. Tucker, just like Tucker Carlson, one of my favorite talking heads on television.

Tucker asks, can you please spell out for us, before we go off the air, what are the greatest dangers, in your opinion, of maintaining a

Pentecostal or charismatic understanding of the gifts? Now, the greatest dangers, of course,

I believe, what's his name? Justin? Peters. Say it again?

Justin Peters. Yeah, Justin Peters has a very good testimony, if y 'all never heard that.

And the thing was, I don't know, they didn't say it in proper words, but it was a fair inference to make, that somehow, because I never spoke in tongues, the problem was with me and my faith.

That's what they said. And like I said, it wasn't in proper words, but that was the impression that they gave.

But I think that's a big danger. But the biggest danger is, they're adding to the word of God, when they talk about tongues being a prophecy, or a word of knowledge, or it needs some type of interpretation, and then, you know, it becomes the word of God.

And most Christians are familiar with Moses' words in Deuteronomy 4 -2, and John's words at the end of Revelation, that we're not supposed to add to the word of God, or subtract from it.

And unfortunately, unwittingly, a lot of charismatics and Pentecostals do that.

And again, I go back to that quote of Curtis Crenshaw's, where he says, if something is the same as scripture, it is not needed.

Scripture already said it. If something is not equal to the scripture, which they claim, then it's not authoritative.

And if something is added to the scriptures, then it should be rejected.

And I think that's something that we've really, really got to come to grips with, and I think charismatics and Pentecostals need to come to grips with.

Yes, and can you tell me if a friend of mine is correct?

I don't know if this person is still Pentecostal or charismatic, but they were seeking to correct me on a post

I put on Facebook. They were making the claim that the teaching that if you pray with a strong confidence that God is going to answer your prayer for healing, and you're not living in disobedience—I mean, everybody sins— but you're not in open rebellion or practicing some heinous, unrepented, unconfessed sin, that your healing will occur.

I was told that is only a teaching of the Word of Faith movement, but I've heard that and witnessed it, demonstrated and experienced in churches throughout my

Christian life, in churches that were not Word of Faith and even churches that opposed

Word of Faith teaching. So, I mean, is this person right, that that's only a Word of Faith connection?

I don't know if it's only a Word of Faith connection. I'll tell you this. Mark 11 .22

says, Have faith in God. We're not supposed to have faith in our faith or faith in our words.

They will say things like, Well, in the beginning, God said, See, there's power in words.

And that's what they'll say. I remember hearing that numerous times, but they put the emphasis in the wrong place.

It didn't happen because they said it. It happened because God said it.

The emphasis should be on God. God speaks things in existence that are not so.

God does it. And what if you have a guy, he wants a mountain to move to the left, and he's confessing that it already happened, and he has faith in his faith, and then man

B wants it to move to the right, and he's doing the same thing. Which way is it going to move?

Like athletes on an opposite team. It's going to move the way

God wants it to move, if he wants it to move at all. Now, he may use us to be his channel, if you will, but it's because of God.

So that is what I would say. Do you have faith that you have faith in God, not faith in the miracle?

And, you know, sometimes God, I heard Dr. Walter Martin say one time, he said, you know why you don't have $100 ,000 in the bank and a

Maserati sitting in your driveway? Because God knows that the only way he can get you to look up is to put you flat on your back.

And I thought that was great. And you said that was Walter Martin? Yeah. Because interestingly enough, he was not a cessationist.

No, he was not. But he was also not word of faith. Right, of course.

So, and just to let your listeners know, years ago, I don't know if it's still applicable, but years ago, the

Assemblies of God had a very good statement against the word of faith. Yes, and they also excommunicated the

Oneness Pentecostals. Yes, they did, back in 1950. But unfortunately, the issue of the

Trinity seems to have devolved into a tertiary belief with many, not all, but many, and, you know,

T .D. Jakes has been invited to speak at Trinitarian churches and is upheld as a great hero of the faith, and the man's a heretic.

I will tell this story real quick. I spoke at a large Pentecostal church one time, and I said to the pastor, a great guy,

I said, let's just ask people to write down their understanding of the

Trinity and see what we get. And we got 38 answers. Now, it was a large church, but we got 38 answers.

I figure it was 38 people that thought they understood it. Ninety -five percent of what we got back was

Sabellian or Oneness Pentecostalism. Wow. And by the way, if you want...

But let me say this. I don't think you could get Presbyterians or Baptists or anybody to answer that question correctly.

I think that goes across denominational lines. You mean you can't get all of them, because certainly you could get many who would answer correctly.

Yeah. But if you went to my church, you would probably get more of a manifestation view like T .D.

Jakes. There's another reason you're going to get kicked out of your church. Yeah, probably. By saying that.

Hopefully my pastor isn't listening today. Well, we got to go, brother.

We are out of time. I thank you so much for being such a superb guest, as you always are.

If anybody wants to get in touch with Jerry, you can e -mail me, and I'll pass on your e -mail to him.

Send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. And I want to thank everybody who listened today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. Jesus Christ is a far, far greater