The Laborers' Podcast- Music

Music, Worship, and the Question of How God Is Approached

First podcast tonight. We are going to be talking about Music and this episode will begin right now.

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast. Remember Jesus is King. Live in the victory of Christ. Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love Network. Join us as together. We strive to grow up together in all things into Christ.

Subscribe and follow the truth in love Network on Facebook YouTube rumble Spotify and iTunes. Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

Welcome to the laborers podcast. Good evening brothers. How are you doing?

Good. Well.

Fantastic fantastic tonight. We're gonna be talking about music Christian music Worship music and everything in between and we want to glorify God as we do that. Thank you for your prayer support of the laborers podcast.

Thank you for sharing and subscribing and Your prayers the comment line is open. We would love to hear from you. Let us know that you're watching or listening. Even if you're listening or watching later on let us know that you watch and if we can pray for you.

We'd love to be able to do that as well. Before we get started, I don't know how long I want to keep doing this, but I know I want to do it now. I want to talk about the The gospel in the theater if you are in the the Western North Carolina area Hickory specifically Hickory, North Carolina.

Please go support our brothers and sisters at the Carolina Theatre. They are Graciously playing the laborers podcast gospel message well, it's the gospel message of Jesus Christ, but he has allowed us to present it and they are Playing it before every movie at the Carolina Theatre in Hickory, North Carolina.

Please please go support them. We would really appreciate it and we appreciate their support and If you are a church if you are a ministry or if you are a Christian business owner.

And.

We're not looking for financial support. We're looking for prayers and a word that says we we like what you're doing and we support you. We would love to be able to support you as well. So contact us so we can put you on our website and we can Give you a shout out.

And for those that have already said so Here's the little video that I put together to show them support. So let's watch that real quick.

All right. All right. All right.

Love those folks and we appreciate their support. Now on to the subject at hand talking about music. Just want to say this all at the forefront. You may have gone towards the same church all your life and you may have done worship and Listed the same kind of music your entire life and you're wondering why in the world are they having this conversation?

I did. I've never heard these words before.

I.

Didn't know there were different styles different kinds. I didn't know that there was a discussion about it or or God Approved or Allowed for other things. So we want to talk to you and and for those that have You know studied this maybe a little bit deeper.

Whether God Cares How We Worship Him

Hopefully we'll We'll be talking to you as well. So the first question does God care how we worship him. Yes, does God care about how we worship him.

We have a quality. Yes.

What now. Where would you get your biblical support for that. John chapter 4, okay starting at verse 21.

Jesus told her we're talking to the woman at the well. For some contextual background Jesus told her believe me woman and I is coming when you will worship the father neither on this mountain nor Jerusalem.

Years used to merit and worship what you do not know. The salvation is from the Jews that I is coming now is now is here and the true worshipper. Worship father in spirit and in truth. Yes, the father won't such people to worship him.

God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

What about you other guys any any biblical support for understanding how God. Does God care about how we worship him? Can you turn us up again or turn you up.

As that oh, yeah, all right, so Deuteronomy chapter 12 The the Jews that left Egypt have have died they were not allowed to enter the promised land because of sinful disobedience and So now Moses has been tasked with bringing up a new generation To learn from those mistakes and enter the land that God has promised them.

And in chapter 12 He's talking about the places of worship and he says in verse 3. Tear down their altars. Smash their sacred pillars. Burn their Asherah poles cut down the carved image of their gods and wipe out their names from every place.

Do not worship the Lord your God this way. Instead turn to the place the Lord your God chooses from all your tribes to put his name For his dwelling and go there. You were to bring there your burnt offerings and sacrifices your tents and personal contributions.

Your vow offerings and freewill offerings and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. You will eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice with your household in everything you do. Because the Lord your God has blessed you you are not to do as we are doing here today.

Everyone is doing whatever seems right in his own sight. Indeed you have not come into the resting place and the inheritance. The Lord your God is giving you when you cross the Jordan and live in the land the Lord your God is giving you to inherit and he gives you rest from All your enemies around you and you live in security.

Then the Lord your God will choose the place to have his name. Dwell.

So I heard a lot about Concern for the place. Yes, I.

Would I would say that that's that's part of it's but the the general idea I was coming at was God's the authority on how we worship how and where we worship that. There is a way that Would seem to common at the time, but he says do not do that.

There was a time there was a way that the other nations worship their gods. Don't do that. God will set this up guy will command how we worship him and where we do so. So, let us be obedient and walk in that.

Where'd big John go. He disappeared. How would I would also add another scripture text? Hey, there he is.

Apologize please. I couldn't hear brother Tyler at all. I can hear everybody but Tyler.

And you hear Tyler. Now try try talking again. Hello. Hello.

No, no. Hmm weird.

Yeah, we can hear him that's technical difficulties I guess on my end. So we Tyler see if you can put a what's it called a closed captioning Comes up on the screen so To to build on what big John and Tyler said another passage that demonstrates Is how we worship?

Import does God care about how we worship and why so what I would go to Exodus chapter 24 in Exodus 24 beginning in verse 1 and then he said to Moses come up to the Lord and you and Aaron Nadab and Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel and worship from afar.

Then Moses and Aaron Nadab and Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel went up. Then bring near to you Aaron your brother and his sons with him From among the people of Israel to serve me as priests. Aaron and Aaron's sons.

But your Nadab and Abihu Eliezer and Ethem are now day habit Nate Nadab and Abihu The sons of Aaron each took his censer. Here's where you know, if you It's easy to glance over this stuff here. But the scripture says here.

I'm sorry that that's is in Leviticus now Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron each took a censer of fire in it and laid incense on it and offered Unauthorized fire before the Lord which he had not commanded them some translations.

I believe the I Can't remember. I think it's King James calls it strange fire. Right. So what happened the Lord killed them Broke out upon them. So why did the Lord break out upon them simply because they brought What was called strange fire and why was it called strange fire?

It was called strange fire or unauthorized Unapproved fire because it wasn't the fire wasn't to come from their own Ling whatever it was come from the altar of the Lord so they Were disobedient to the Lord and that another example would be Uzzah.

As a I don't y 'all may you're all gonna have to correct me on my pronunciation on his name but when the Children of Israel were bringing back the Ark of the Covenant one place in first Chronicles The scripture says that when they came to the threshing floor of Chad on who's a put his hand to take hold of the ark for the oxen stumbled and the anger of the Lord was Kindled against Uzzah and he struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark and he died there before the before God.

Some people might say why did the Lord kill us or just because he reached out to try to Prop up the the Ark of the Covenant. Well, the problem was that the Lord Originally had set up the way in which the Ark was to be carried and it was not to be put on a cart.

A new cart as a matter of fact the way the scripture puts it a new cart but the Ark of the Covenant was meant to be carried by the Poles through the rings and to be carried one one man on each corner and to be carried that way it wouldn't You know, it wouldn't couldn't stumble or be fallen so to speak but in any case They did not follow God's prescribed pattern and that's an example of worship God's prescribed pattern of worship.

And so the Lord punished them.

I think it's important to define the worship to. As we're starting out in this and I know tonight we'll be focusing on the music side of it, you know, or or do worship as we think through that I think the overarching picture is what John gave us there of one who worships the Spirit and the truth and.

In.

Defining those terms really important and then and then what we do and what we're hearing what Tyler and Claude and what I would say Who is as much as there is a a way that God says do it? There's also Instruction that God said do it this way and then people were doing it that way and then he comes back like in Isaiah chapter 1 13 No more vain offerings or bring no more offerings incense combination to me new moon Sabbath calling a Convocation's I cannot endure iniquity of your solemn assembly.

Yeah, so we find the prophets They're saying call a solemn assembly and then God here turns and says I can't stand your solemn assembly. I hate sick of this, you know. And so it seems like through every prophet especially major prophets there Jeremiah and Isaiah in the law There's things that God's saying I'm sick of this.

I hate it. I'm tired of this. So I think they were missing the spirit and truth. I think they were attempting in truth. But they were thinking just because I'm following instruction this is pleasing to God and they're missing the spirit of worship the heart of worship that can be the lifting up of praise and So, I don't think you can do one without the other, you know.

So I think there is the instruction of it and even just because you follow the letters of instruction Doesn't mean you've accomplished worship in spirit that really and the pictures of that so I think as much as there is instruction of God giving instruction on worship.

I think there's even more hate about the the meaningless Exercise of worship without the spirit without making in spirit and in that truth. Amen.

Transitioning from the negative to the positive. That's correct.

Because I think We do the same thing. The reason that's so important to point out in this while we're defining worship and it's gonna please with this God please that. There's lots of people that I talked to in sharing the gospel with them.

And are you born again? Well, yeah, I go to church and I read my Bible and last week we talked about tithing and so I tithe I do all these things and I think sometimes God's looking at that to me Like filthy rags to me.

Yeah, you've really not even come to me through the blood of Jesus. You're thinking you're bringing Your work to me as an as an aroma of worship and it stinks in my nostrils. It's it's meaningless and I hate it.

That's true. So I think that's the tension between Some of the stuff we're going to be talking about the regulative and the normative and all those kind of situations the spirit and the truth. I think you can get on either hyper-extreme of that and You know, I.

Think that those are good boundaries. Those are good guidelines to keep us in as we answer those these questions tonight. In the same line of thinking is what you guys are bringing up from the Old Testament.

One of the places that I think about is Part of the character and God's instructions to Israel how meticulously Detailed he was when he when he gave them the temple when he gave them instruction on how how to Sacrifice them and how to worship just just how meticulous in detail he was with him.

To me that speaks volumes about how much he cares about how they They he works he care how much he cares about how they worship him. A question come to my mind. Tyler when you were answering the question was this You you were speaking about the the difference that was supposed to be seen between Israel and everybody else and how they worship.

And we've transitioned over to the new covenant now and we're Do you think that that that principle is in That we are supposed to. I know it would be for different reasons. Maybe maybe some of the same reasons, but Is there supposed to be a difference?

In in how we worship how we the music that we create, you know along that same vein I.

Would definitely agree that there is a sense of threshold that there is a Sense that we transition from point A to point B that we go from being in the world to being in the world, but not of the world and the way we approach Corporate worship the way we worship in the church.

I think we do have to in the sense be cognizant of that in regards to what's on the radio. What's on? What's in these venues? Are we imitating that or are we being different from that out of worship? And while I'm not saying we should get rid of drum sets or anything like that There is a right use of things.

You go to a secular Concert and the focus is on the performer. The focus is on the skill set of the people on the stage. But if we go to a church service and You're worshiping amongst the body. The focus is on who they're singing about who they're singing to.

And I would. Real quick. I would jump into here too and say what Tyler just spoke about. I think over the years is really a challenge for all Christians to. Oh, sorry, I was reading your note.

Squirrel.

So.

It's a challenge for us as Christians because the lines I think the lines do get tend to get blurred in this way, so For a period of time, I think Christian radio was putting out some great music some great music for the radio and good good content so to speak for a Christian to to listen to.

But when it like Tyler said when it began to be tried to why what was on the radio began to be Moved into the church and emulated. I think that was the challenge because Particularly not even necessarily the style because style varies but but the content of the music the content of the music on the radio to particularly now is Just crap.

It's fluff. It's junk a lot of it on the radio now. That's all to me. That's that's my opinion on that because there's no rich theological depth to The the words in the music the lyrics in the music because so much emphasis is put on.

No, like Tyler said the skill of the musician and we're called to play, you know. To play with skill the music the music Instruments, but when when the theology of the music suffers, that's where for me.

That's where the content or that's where the challenge comes. I.

Think entertainment is a big factor what you're talking about. Yeah, and who who are we singing for? That's right. I think that That to me personally is 99 of the entire conversation. Just simply because the shift has been that That church could be designed to People and focus on people and what people desire and what you people and Worship is Not about me.

Hey, man, you know, it's not about Who I. It's first people goes and so I think I think what's happening even with our labors podcast and and where we unite even in a few differences and things where where we unite a God-centered theology versus Center theology.

Yeah, and then from a God-centered Christ-centered gospel-centered theology. Then the music should flow out of that which will then bring a heart of worship that is a Christocentric worship and an adoration of the hymn.

And so then so that's I think that's the whole key in my opinion is where there's been this shift in culture That's become a man-centered theology the gospel is all about me and my salvation and my Relationship with Jesus and what God has done for me and how God loves me.

And are those bad things as far as saying that God does love you, right? But if but if it's narcissistic in its approach And it it's rubbish. And so so I just think that's in my opinion Coming through the generation of worship wars, you know you know and I was young coming up through those things and hearing all this kind of stuff my dad was a pastor and watching these changes and and and these wars and and then it become about the youth versus the old people and You know and all this kind of stuff and you know it but it but it really was it was a shift from gospel-centered to Christ-centered or Christ-centered to human-centered and then what happened is it didn't matter what your age was it all become about me centered because it become About what I like.

Yeah, I like the old hymn. Well, I like.

Well.

The moment you start saying that. You're no longer worshiping Jesus. Nobody's asking what does Christ like what does God? Like what pleases the ears part of God. Now, we've become a human centered situation and so therefore in order to humans.

Then of course you got a water it now. Some louder and some softer some hotter some colder some more rhythm some more bass some more electric and. Because it's about what what people like so the tension in that you were putting this psalm 33 is the tension in that.

It's about the amount of instruments. I mean here we got flutes and Harps and tambourines and all this kind of stuff and it says and play them skillfully. Okay, and shout. It should be joy in the house.

Boy, really a joy because I can feel it in my chest in the face. Or is the joy. Man, we're rejoicing in the salvation of our God. Amen. Amen. I think that's the real battle that we have to.

Evaluate carefully. Let me interject here to a very controversial statement. Maybe this would be good for a soundbite. The church hymnals Have as much junk in them as a lot of the modern Christian music today because Just said they are.

Absolutely I'm not gonna go there. I got a bunch to say about that. I'll let you. There we go, I mean Old school radio station, you know is. It was not all Christ centered, right? It's it's not grandma and grandpa and you know, and all this other kind of stuff and it ain't got nothing to do with Jesus, so There is as much bad theology and old music.

Amen.

This is only one of the aspects of the downfall the slippery slope that we that we got ourselves into but we're talking about music and we've also talked about worship and you were talking about defining worship or Music is just an aspect of worship.

So there's other aspects of worship and preaching is part of the worship. And this is touching on something called it that you said we've tried to emulate what's outside and bringing it to the church and This was done with Billy Graham.

Just really Graham into the church they try to be. Billy Graham didn't see the results and the same thing is true with with the music. You try to bring it into the church and you realize I'm Not the people that I hear on the radio.

And then it's like I think Jonathan was you know. Saying something to the effect, you know, we need more this need more cowbell. More fog.

I mean if you look at the Crusades of Billy.

Prescription and more. Cowbell. I.

Mean even if you look at the the Crusades of Billy Graham. There was a point where he brought in DC talk to warm up the crowd with songs from the Beatles and Jimi Hendrix. Yeah.

Yeah. So and and to to the definition of worship again, it's important that we remember that.

A.

Music isn't.

The.

Pinnacle in the focus of the worship service. The preaching of the word is the work is the pinnacle of the worship service. The music should Accompany and adorn that And compliment that. But when it comes to the service the worship service of the church, it's the preaching of the work.

So one one thing that I and I I'm listening to to Tyler Like in hindsight because I'm streaming my right ear Facebook. So One of the things I don't know if it's been said by him. But I don't think anybody else has said unless it said wise gone.

I think there's there's an aspect that I was I was taught. By my former pastor, I thought was pretty interesting is that Honestly Music is not worship but in period. Worship is something that Jesus describes as something done in the spirit.

Music is you might have a joyfulness in your spirit that you think of in terms of song or whatever. But that is not the physical aspect of music that is audible that you can hear with your ears. I think that most of the time what I've seen confused is praise.

That gets confused for worship. What you see in Psalm 150 when you're praising him on every one of these. He doesn't say worship him on the on the high sounding symbols or with powerful acts or with abundant greatness or it says praise him.

That's true. So I think that To To begin with the conversation of worship and then to transition quickly into music is to kind of miss. Really I think as much of what the Samaritans were missing at the well as.

And when Jesus corrected that he didn't talk about music whatsoever, did he? Should you worship you don't know what you're worshiping. And if you take the instant of strange fire being brought in the temple and killing Aaron's kids.

You you realize you don't hear anything about music in that either. That's right the fact that they offered something that God told them not to.

Oh.

Right, so if God's going to prescribe what worship is then He's only going to accept what he's described so to to equate music in any capacity. And for those who don't know I speak. I speak at this from a I'm a musician in a Pentecostal church where the bass is loud where the drums are loud where it's all loud, right?

I play electric guitar 99 of the time. Not one string hit is an act of worship. Not one not one song sung not one not one single thing done from the platform Musically is an act of worship. It is an act of praise.

That is if correctly I'm correct in this is an overflow of The worship that you have for God in your spirit. These things tend to show themselves. And I think praise it. I think if you worship God and spirit and truth praise manifests naturally out of that.

I.

Just.

Is that's my two cents on it. I don't think I got two pennies though. Hang on. See if I got. I got a quarter.

Well, that's I mean that's something good that you won't definitely is. Especially those who are not coming from coming to it from that perspective.

What's it. I heard Todd frill say something one time and I listened to Todd frill, you know, not as much as I used to but he was in a church that was Undoubtedly was visiting because it was a mega church to some degree I guess he said there was a lady in front of him Who was at her hands up and she was she was crying.

He said the song was was terrible. It was he said you didn't have enough theology in it to fill the thimble. These were his words and he said he realized about halfway through the song that undoubtedly something in that song Administered to a point.

She wasn't singing the word. She was praying and here she had her hands lifted high. She was crying. She was talking to the Lord and he said Well, that's something mister me at all. Not one bit all he could see all he could do was poke holes in the theology of the guy song.

But for whatever reason by a miracle of God Administered to somebody else and I've thought piles of times about that because you know, Todd frill. He's most assuredly not Pentecostal Would not try out for a praise and worship team, you know at elevation next week if he had an opportunity.

And and and his talking I got to thinking and God used to donkey one time To straighten over more out and.

Here's just another aspect of this this conversation that that I was thinking about as well. And I guess it was a backlash of what Jonathan was talking about and hopefully we'll move into that here in just a just a second but the some of the worship Music wars that we had, you know several years ago that probably still goes on today.

I.

Guess it was some of the backlash from that that put me in a position where I was like we should only have music. That that's you know vertical. Sure, then, you know begin as I begin to learn and look at music from Scripture that that it prescribes you have music that's didactic and.

It was just another reason why it should coincide a lot with you know. What else is going on in this in the service on the sermon and then you you have the passage that talks about you know? Greeting each other with you know and spiritual songs.

Yeah, so that's that's. Our music is is a form of greeting communication and and fellowship with one another. So there's that horizontal aspect of music in the church and in the body. Then we can get more into that later.

Thinking thinking about that that war that that we witnessed not too long ago and some of our churches. Maybe some of us experienced, you know, some of us heard some of the old-timers say We we ain't letting them youngins bring them drums and guitars in the sanctuary.

I.

Actually didn't experience any of that. So I'm I'm Completely alien to the concept of worship wars. I didn't know what he was talking about. I'm being honest with you I was thinking and we talking about historical events, you know, this.

It was historical, all right.

I.

Remember being a Methodist Church where there wasn't a single firearm in the I remember I mean I was a boy as an amateur. There's not one firearm in the entire sanctuary, right? And it my my mom played piano and occasionally somebody played an organ and and I thought songs were fine.

I had no trouble with you. No, I didn't I wasn't saved so I didn't really I Suppose I didn't really care an awful lot about what they were singing. It sounded fine to me. And when I was saved the first church I went to was a Was a Baptist in the Church of God and I think both of them had bands.

I just assumed that was the norm. These days and or maybe that was the norm outside of the Methodist Church, you know, ignorance may abound in me I don't know.

Well, I mean, that's where a lot of people are is, you know, that's where we grew up. That's where we've always been. That's what I've always seen and those so that's how and that's what our leaders are Portraying or allowing in the church.

So that must be biblical. It must be what God wants in the church. Until we begin to broaden our eyes and see what how other people do it and more specifically and more importantly Sure. Which that's part of that.

That's the reason for this podcast to look in the future. See what God Would have us to do in the church. And so instead of the converse go ahead.

I was just gonna accentuate what you just said in the church. That's key.

Yeah, that's right. And and instead of having the more than me center like Jonathan was talking about You know, which which is my preference and and I'm that's not my preference so we're not going to allow it in the sanctuary.

Instead of having that conversation. I Would say the more theological biblical conversation is the regulative versus normative Conversation and so can somebody define regulative versus normative principles.

The regulative principle of worship maintains that the scriptures give a specific guideline for conducting the corporate worship service. For example, we could look at the regulative principle principle as God specific direction and in the in the Old Testament, right how to carry the ark so on and so forth.

And then there's the normative principle, which says if it's not explicitly Refused Then it's acceptable. And and again, there is a there is Truly as everything in the Christian life. There's a balance to be had That that that takes discernment and intentionality.

So, do you think so do you think those two Different Ideas there the regulative and normative. Do you think that those are our Ditches and we should stay in the balance or do you think those are good perspectives?

Is there a third way a third option? I.

Think that there is. As far as the principles themselves go right but in understanding that regulative principle and normative principle.

They.

Are guardrails. But I. But you can certainly go and you can go in the ditch on both of them. Right. Because you can I mean you can you can with the normative principle. You can go in the ditch with with where David came into the city praising God naked.

Nobody wants that. What was it that woman said. Ain't nobody got time for that. And say well, I'm praising God that David did it why can't I do it.

Goes into those things just like Like we talked about translations of Bibles, you know, we're talking about the authority of Scripture. There's good translations and bad translation. That's right. And so there's there is a group of acceptable worthwhile study translations that make a very good attempt of word-for-word translation and then there's Extremes on each side and so the regulative principle hyper-regulative principle leads to legalism ism and hyper legalism the hyper normative Format leads to liberalism and hyper liberal approach to this.

And so so spirited in truth, I think in many ways are Normative and regulative and I think the normative side is the spirit. It's it is there is a freedom I'm free to do anything. I have the liberty to do whatever but not all things are beneficial.

That's right. Oh, so There is like this spirit side that I'm free in my spirit lift hands to shout for joy to Care at all what somebody besides me thinks but that I'm On the regulative side. This is corporate worship.

This is something that we should be able to do together and and with one heart one mind one accord Praising God and uniting our hearts together in worship.

So.

We find a lot of camps in the extremes of Pastors walking on the stage with a CDC Intro music or whatever those kind of things and and. To a young believer or an unbeliever.

This.

Not think anything about it. But to those that are seeking worship God and we come together in church. That's what we're targeting now to come together in church with the body of believers spirit. And in three and now a pointed time that's consecrated for the Lord for honor and glory unto him and.

Then everything that's done from the first welcome to announcements to To the preaching to the closing to the invitation. However, that however that plays out of order of service every bit of it should be a process of worshipping.

Raising. And I appreciate John's verbiage the other day. I do value what he said. It brings thought to the action of praise. There's in the heart. So that's how I see those two principles though. So yes, I when you use where their ditches sometimes you can you can get in the ditch and.