The Laborers' Podcast- Music

first podcast tonight we are going to be talking about music and this episode will begin right now thank you for joining the laborers podcast remember

Jesus is King live in the victory of Christ welcome to the laborers podcast which is a part of the truth in love network join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ subscribe and follow the truth and love network on Facebook YouTube Rumble Spotify and iTunes now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast welcome to the laborers podcast good evening brothers how are you doing good well fantastic fantastic tonight we're gonna be talking about music

Christian music worship music and everything in between and we want to glorify

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I love those folks and we appreciate their support now on to the subject at hand talking about music just want to say this all at the forefront you may have gone towards the same church all your life and you may have done worship and listed the same kind of music your entire life and you're wondering why in the world are they having this conversation

I did I've never heard these words before I didn't know there were different styles different kinds

I didn't know that there was a discussion about it or or God approved or allowed for other things so we want to talk to you and for those that have you know studied this maybe a little bit deeper hopefully we'll we'll be talking to you as well so the first question does

God care how we worship him yes does

God care about how we worship him we have all say yes now where would you get your biblical support for that John chapter 4 okay starting verse 21

Jesus told her we're talking to the woman at the well for some contextual background

Jesus told her believe me woman and I is coming when you will worship the

Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem you're used to merit and worship what you do not know the salvation is from the

Jews and Irish coming now is now is here and the true worshipper will worship the

Father in spirit and in truth yes the Father wants such people to worship him God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth what about you other guys any any biblical support for understanding how

God does God care about how we worship him okay can you turn us up again or turn you up as that oh yeah all right so Deuteronomy chapter 12 the the

Jews that left Egypt have have died they were not allowed to enter the promised land because of sinful disobedience and so now

Moses has been tasked with bringing up a new generation to learn from those mistakes and enter the land that God has promised them in a chapter 12 he's talking about the places of worship and he says in verse 3 tear down their altars smash their sacred pillars burn their

Asherah poles cut down the carved image of their gods and wipe out their names from every place do not worship the

Lord your God this way instead turn to the place the Lord your God chooses from all your tribes to put his name for his dwelling and go there you were to bring there your burnt offerings and sacrifices your tents and personal contributions your vow offerings and free will offerings and the firstborn of your herds and flocks you will eat there in the presence of the

Lord your God and rejoice with your household in everything you do because the Lord your God has blessed you you are not to do as we are doing here today everyone is doing whatever seems right in his own sight indeed you have not come into the resting place and the inheritance the

Lord your God is giving you when you cross the Jordan and live in the land the Lord your God is giving you to inherit and he gives you rest from all your enemies around you and you live in security then the

Lord your God will choose the place to have his name dwell so I heard a lot about concern for the place yes

I would I would say that that's that's part of it but the the general idea

I was coming at was God's the authority on how we worship how and where we worship that there is a way that would seem to common at the time but he says do not do that there was a time there was a way that the other nations worship their gods don't do that guy will set this up guy will command how we worship him and where we do so so let us be obedient and walk in that where'd big

John go he disappeared how would I would also add another scripture text hey there is

I couldn't hear brother Tyler at all I can hear everybody but Tyler and you hear

Tyler now try try talking again hello hello no no hmm weird yeah we can hear him that's technical difficulties

I guess on my end so we Tyler see if you can put a what's it called a closed captioning every time you speak it comes up on the screen so to to build on what big

John and Tyler said another passage that demonstrates is how we worship import does

God care about how we worship and why so what I would go to Exodus chapter 24 in Exodus 24 beginning in verse 1 and then he said to Moses come up to the

Lord and you and Aaron Nadab and Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel and worship from afar then

Moses and Aaron Nadab and Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel went up then bring near to you

Aaron your brother and his sons with him from among the people of Israel to serve me as priests

Aaron and Aaron's sons which are Nadab and Abihu Eleazar and Ethemar now they have but Nate Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron each took his censer here's where you know if you it's easy to glance over this stuff here but the scripture says here

I'm sorry that that this is in Leviticus now Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron each took a censer of fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the

Lord which he had not commanded them some translations I believe the I can't remember

I think it's King James because it's strange fire right so what happened the

Lord killed them broke out upon them so why did the

Lord break out upon them simply because they brought what was called strange fire and why was it called strange fire it was called strange fire or unauthorized unapproved fire because it wasn't the fire wasn't to come from their own whatever it was come from the altar of the

Lord so they were disobedient to the Lord and that another example would be

Uzzah Uzzah I don't y 'all may you're all gonna have to correct me on my pronunciation on his name but when the children of Israel were bringing back the

Ark of the Covenant one place in first Chronicles the scripture says that when they came to the threshing floor of Chadon Uzzah put his hand to take hold of the

Ark for the oxen stumbled and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah and he struck him down because he put out his hand to the

Ark and he died there before the before God some people might say why did the

Lord kill us or just because he reached out to try to prop up the the Ark of the Covenant well the problem was that the

Lord originally had set up the way in which the Ark was to be carried and it was not to be put on a cart a new cart as a matter of fact the way the scripture puts it a new cart but the

Ark of the Covenant was meant to be carried by the poles through the rings and to be carried one one man on each corner and to be carried that way it wouldn't you know it wouldn't couldn't stumble or be fallen so to speak but in any case they did not follow

God's prescribed pattern and that's an example of worship God's prescribed pattern of worship and so the

Lord punished them I think it's important to define worship to as we're starting out in this and tonight we'll be focusing on the music side of it you know or or do you think through that I think the overarching picture is what

John gave us there of one who worships in spirit and in truth and in defining those terms really important and then and then what we do and what we're hearing what

Tyler and Claude and what I would say is as much as there is a way that God says do it there's also instruction that God said do it this way and then people were doing it that way and then he comes back like in Isaiah chapter 1 verse 13 no more vain offerings or bring no more offerings incense combination to me new moon

Sabbath calling a convocation convocations I cannot endure iniquity of your solemn assembly yeah you know so we find the prophets are saying call a solemn assembly and then

God here turns and says I can't stand your solemn assembly I hate sick of this and so it seems like every prophet especially major prophets there

Jeremiah and Isaiah in the law there's things that God's saying I'm sick of this I hate this

I'm tired of this so I think they were missing the spirit and truth I think they were attempting in truth but they were thinking just because I'm following instruction this is pleasing to God and they're missing the spirit of worship the heart of worship that can be the lifting up of praise and so I don't think you can do one without the other you know so I think there is the instruction of it and even just because you follow the letters of instruction doesn't mean you've accomplished worship in spirit and the pictures of that so I think as much as there is instruction of God giving instruction on worship

I think there's even more hate about the the meaningless exercise of worship without the spirit without making it spirit and in that truth amen transitioning from the negative to the positive correct because I think we do the same thing the reason that's so now we're defining worship and it's gonna please with this guy please that there's lots of people that I talked to in sharing the gospel with them and are you born again oh yeah

I go to church and I read my Bible and last week we talked about tithing it's what I do all these things and I think sometimes

God looking at that like filthy rags to me yeah really not even come to me through the blood of Jesus you're thinking you're bringing your work to me as an as an aroma of worship and it stinks in my nostrils it's it's meaningless and I hate it so I think that's the tension between some of the stuff we're going to be talking about the regulative and the normative and all those kind of situations the spirit and the truth

I think you can get on either hyper extreme of that and I think that those are good boundaries those are good guidelines to keep us in as we answer those these questions tonight in the same line of thinking is what you guys were bringing up from Old Testament one of the places that I think about is part of the character and God's instructions to Israel how meticulously detailed he was when he when he gave them the temple when he gave them instruction on how how to sacrifice and how to worship just just how meticulous in detail he was with him to me that speaks volumes about how much he cares about how they they he works he care how much he cares about how they worship him a question come to my mind

Tyler when you were answering the question was this you were speaking about the difference that was supposed to be seen between Israel and everybody else and how they worship and we've transitioned over to the new covenant now and we're do you think that that that principle is in that we are supposed to I know it would be for different reasons maybe maybe some of the same reasons but is there supposed to be a difference in how we worship how we the music that we create you know along that same vein

I would definitely agree that there is a sense of threshold that there is a sense that we transition from point a to point

B that we go from being in the world to being in the world but not of the world and the the way we approach corporate worship the way we worship in the church

I think we do have to in the sense be cognizant of that in regards to what's on the radio what's on what's in these venues are we imitating that or are we being different from that out of worship and while I'm not saying we should get rid of drum sets or anything like that there is a right use of things you go to a secular concert and the focus is on the performer the focus is on the skill set of the people on the stage but if we go to a church service and you're worshipping amongst the body the focus is on who they're singing about who they're singing to and I would real quick I would jump in here too and say what

Tyler just spoke about I think over the years is really a challenge for all

Christians to so it's a challenge for us as Christians because the lines

I think the lines do get tend to get blurred in this way so for a period of time

I think Christian radio was putting out some great music some great music for the radio and good good content so to speak for a

Christian to to listen to but when it like Tyler said when it began to be tried to what was on the radio began to be moved into the church and emulated

I think that was the challenge because particularly not even the style because style varies but but the content of the music the content of the music on the radio to particularly now is just crap it's fluff it's junk a lot of it on the radio now that's all to me that's that's my opinion on that because there's no rich theological depth to the words in the music the lyrics in the music because so much emphasis is put on like Tyler said the skill of the musician and we're called to play you know to play with skill the music the music instruments but when when the theology of the music suffers that's where for me that's where the content or that's where the challenge comes

I think entertainment is a big factor what you're talking about calling yeah and who who are we singing for that's right

I think that that to me personally is 99 % of the entire conversation just simply because the shift has been that that church could be designed to people and focus on people and what people desire and what needs to people and worship is not about me amen you know it's not about who

I'm it's as far as people goes and so I think I think what's happening even with our labors podcast and and where we unite even in a few differences and things where where we unite

God -centered theology and centered theology and then from a

God -centered Christ centered gospel centered theology then that music should flow out of that which will then bring out part of worship that is a

Christo centric worship and and adoration unto him and so then so that's

I think that's the whole key in my opinion is where there's been this shifting culture that's become a man -centered theology the gospel is all about me and my salvation and my relationship with Jesus and what

God has done for me and how God loves me and are those bad things as far as God does but if but if it's narcissistic and it's rubbish and so I just think that's in my opinion coming through the generation of worship wars you know you know and I was young coming up through those things and hearing all this kind of stuff my dad was a pastor and watching these changes and and and these wars and and then it would come about the youth versus the old people and you know and all this kind of stuff and you know it but it really was it was a shift from gospel centered to Christ centered or Christ the human centered and then what happened is it didn't matter what your age was it all become about me centered because it would come about what

I like you know I like to owe him I like well the moment you start saying that you're no longer worshiping

Jesus nobody's asking what does Christ like what does God like what pleases the heart of God now we've become a human centered situation so therefore in order to humans then of course you got a water it now some louder and some softer some hotter some colder some more rhythm some more bass some more electric and because it's about what what people like so the tension in that you you were quoting this

Psalm 33 is the tension in that mm -hmm it's about the amount of instruments I mean here we got flutes and parts and tambourines and all this kind of stuff and it says and play them skillfully okay and shout we're doing well it should be joy in the house of God boy really a joy because I can feel it in my chest in the face or is the joy man we're rejoicing in the salvation of our

God hey man amen I think that's the real battle that we have to evaluate carefully let me interject here to a very controversial statement maybe this would be good for a soundbite the church hymnals have as much junk in them as a lot of the modern

Christian music today because I'm not gonna go there called

I got a bunch to say about that I'll let you I mean old -school radio station you know is it was not all

Christ centered right it's it's not grandma and grandpa and you know and all this other kind of stuff and it ain't got nothing to do with Jesus so yeah there is as much bad theology and old music amen this is only one of the aspects of the downfall the slippery slope that we that we got ourselves into but we're talking about music and we've also talked about worship and you were talking about defining worship or music is just an aspect of worship so there's other aspects of worship and preaching is part of the worship and this is touching on something called it that you said we've tried to emulate what's outside and bring it into the church and this was done with Billy Graham just had to bring

Billy Graham into the church they try to be Billy Graham didn't see the results and the same thing is true with with the music you try to bring it into the church and you realize

I'm I'm not the people that I hear on the radio and then it's like I think

Jonathan was you know say something to the effect you know we need more this need more cowbell

I mean if you look at the Crusades of Billy Graham there was a point where he brought in DC talk to warm up the crowd with songs from the

Beatles and Jimi Hendrix yeah yeah so in to to the definition of worship again it's important that we remember that music isn't the pinnacle in the focus of the worship service the preaching of the word is the work is the pinnacle of the worship service the music should accompany and adorn that and complement that but when it comes to the service the worship service of the church it's the preaching of the work so one one thing that I and I I'm listening to to Tyler like in hindsight because I'm streaming in my right ear

Facebook so one of the things I don't know if it's been said by him but I don't think anybody else has said it unless it said was gone

I think there's there's an aspect that I was I was taught by my former pastor

I thought was pretty interesting is that honestly music is not worship in period worship is something that Jesus describes as something done in the spirit music is you might have a joyfulness in your spirit that you think of in terms of song or whatever but that is not the physical aspect of music that is audible that you can hear with your ears

I think that most of the time what I've seen confused is praise that gets confused for worship what you see in Psalm 150 when you're praising him on every one of these he doesn't say worship him on the on the high sounding symbols or with powerful acts or with abundant greatness or this is praise him that's true so I think that to to begin with the conversation of worship and then to transition quickly into music is to kind of miss really

I think as much of what the Samaritans were missing at the well as and when

Jesus corrected that he didn't talk about music whatsoever did he should you worship you don't know what you're worshiping and if you take the instant of strange fire being brought in the temple and killing

Aaron's kids you you realize that you don't hear anything about music in that either the fact that they offered something that God told them not to right so if God's going to prescribe what worship is then he's only going to accept what he's described so to to equate music in any capacity and for those who don't know

I speak I speak at this from a I'm a musician in a Pentecostal Church where the bass is loud where the drums are loud where it's all loud right

I play electric guitar 99 % of the time not one string hit is an act of worship not one not one song sung not one not one single thing done from the platform musically is an act of worship it is an act of praise that is if correctly

I'm correct in this is an overflow of the worship that you have for God in your spirit these things tend to show themselves and I think praise it

I think if you worship God in spirit and truth praise manifests naturally out of that I just is that's my two cents on it

I don't think I got two pennies though hang on see I got a quarter well that's

I mean that's something good that you want definitely is especially those who are not coming from coming to it from that perspective what's it

I heard Todd frill say something one time and I listened to Todd frill you know not not as much as I used to but he was in a church that was a devil he was visiting because it was a mega church to some degree

I guess he said there was a lady in front of him who was at her hands up and she was she was crying he said the song was was terrible it was he said you didn't have enough theology in it to fill the thimble these were his words and he said he realized about halfway through the song that undoubtedly something in that song had ministered to a point she wasn't singing the word she was praying and here she had her hands lifted high she was crying she was talking to the

Lord and he said well that song didn't minister me at all not one bit all he could see all you do is poke holes in the theology of the other guy song but for whatever reason by a miracle of God it ministered to somebody else and I've thought piles of times about that because if you know

Todd frill he's most assuredly not Pentecostal would not try out for a praise and worship team you know at elevation next week if he had an opportunity and in his talking

I got to thinking and God used a donkey one time that's right straight no more out and here's just another aspect of this this conversation that I was thinking about as well and I guess it was a backlash of what

Jonathan was talking about and hopefully we'll move into that here in just a just a second but the some of the worship music wars that we had you know several years ago that probably still goes on today

I guess it was some of the backlash from that that put me in a position where I was like well we should only have music that that's you know vertical children you know begin as I begin to learn and look at music from scripture that it prescribes you have music that's didactic and it was just another reason why it should coincide a lot with you know what else is going on in this in the service on the sermon and then you you have the passage that talks about you know greeting each other with you know and spiritual songs so that's that's our music is is a form of greeting communication and and fellowship with one another so there's that horizontal aspect of music in the church and in the body maybe we can get more into that later thinking about that that war that that we witnessed not too long ago in some of our churches maybe some of us experienced you know some of us heard some of the old -timers say we ain't letting them youngins bring them drums and guitars in the sanctuary.

I actually didn't experience any of that so I'm completely alien to the concept of worship wars

I didn't know what he was talking about I'm being honest with you I was thinking I mean we talking about historical events you know this it was historical all right

I remember being in a

Methodist church where there wasn't a single firearm in the I remember I remember as a boy I was in a Methodist church there was not one firearm in the entire sanctuary right and it my mom played piano and occasionally somebody played an organ and and I thought songs were fine

I had no trouble with you know I didn't I wasn't saved so I didn't really I suppose

I didn't really care an awful lot about what they were singing it sounded fine to me and when

I was saved the first church I went to was a was a Baptist in the Church of God and I think both of them had bands

I just assumed that was the norm these days and or maybe that was the norm outside of the

Methodist Church you know ignorance may abound in me I don't know well

I mean that's where a lot of people are you know that's where we grew up that's where we've always been that's what I've always seen and those so that's how and that's what our leaders are portraying or allowing in the church so that must be biblical it must be what

God wants in the church until we begin to broaden our eyes and see what how other people do it and more specifically and more importantly that's the reason for this podcast to look in the future see what

God would have us to do in the church and so instead of the converse go ahead

I was just gonna accentuate what you just said in the church that's key yeah that's right and and instead of having the more than me senator like Jonathan was talking about you know which which is my preference and I'm that's not my preference so we're not gonna allow it in the sanctuary instead of having that conversation

I would say the more theological biblical conversation is the regulative versus normative conversation and so can somebody define regulative versus normative principles the regular principle of worship maintains that the scriptures give a specific guideline for conducting the corporate worship service for example we could look at the regular principle principle as God's specific direction and in the in the

Old Testament right how to carry the ark so on and so forth and then there's the normative principle which says if it's not explicitly refused then it's acceptable and and again there is a there is truly as everything in the

Christian life there's a balance to be had that that that takes discernment and intentionality so do you think so do you think those two different ideas there the regulative and normative do you think that those are our ditches and we should stay in the balance or do you think those are good perspectives is there a third way a third option

I think that there is as far as the principles themselves go right but in understanding that regulative principle and normative principle they are guardrails but I but you can certainly go and you can go in the ditch on both of them right because you can

I mean you could you can with the normative principle you can go in the ditch but with where David came in the city praising

God naked nobody wants that what was it that woman said ain't nobody got time for that and say well

I'm praising God that David did it why can't I do it right or everything goes into those things just like right like we talked about translations of Bibles you know we're talking about the authority of Scripture there's good translations and bad translation that's right and so there's there is a group of acceptable worthwhile study translations that make a very good attempt of word -for -word translation and then there's extremes on each side and so the regulative principle hyper regulative principle leads to legalism and hyper legalism the hyper normative format leads to liberalism and hyper liberal approach to this and so so spirited in truth

I think in many ways are normative and regulative and I think the normative side is the spirit it's it is there is a freedom

I'm free to do anything I have the liberty to do whatever but not all things are beneficial that's right so there is like this spirit side that I'm free in my spirit lift hands to shout for joy to and I shouldn't care at all what somebody besides me thinks but um on the regulative side this is corporate worship this is something that we should be able to do together and and with one heart one mind one accord raising

God and uniting our hearts together in worship so what we find a lot of camps in the extremes of a pastor walking on the stage with a

CDC intro music or whatever those kind of things and and to a young believer or an unbeliever not think anything about it but to those that are seeking worship

God and we come together in church that's what we're targeting to come together in church with the body of believers spirit and in three then now appointed time that's consecrated for the

Lord for honor and glory unto him and then everything that's done from the first welcome to announcements to the preaching to the closing to the invitation however that however that plays out of order of service every bit of it should be a process of worshiping anything and I appreciate

John's verbiage the other day I do value what he said it brings thought to the action of praise you know there's in the heart so that's how

I see those two principles though so yes I when you use word they're ditches sometimes you can you can get in the ditch and and it goes all the way back to what we're reading a while ago it becomes it becomes nonsense to God it has

I believe God hates you know and Tyler can you think of any more pros or cons to the regulative or present times in the normative principle kind of feeding off what

Jonathan where Jonathan was taking us I think between Jonathan and Clyde they pretty much got that nail flash yeah yeah there's a there's a great article

I don't know if you guys found it in your research there's a really good argue to I mean argument there's a really good article on got questions by the word on regulative versus normative principles of worship and you know in general

I think he does a really good job of standing a very healthy point of view giving giving honor to both positions and the value of both positions he does lay out specific pros and cons to both positions and so for anybody listening

I don't know that everything on got questions is excellent there's a lot of good stuff on and but I really do think this article really captures the heart

I think of what we're all trying to say it gives a lot of passage of the scripture to get a lot of in there so you go to got questions dot org and the title of it is versus so can

I give an example real quick play a snippet of a song right no place to raise your kid but um if we ain't living it who else gonna show what a family's supposed to look like instead of them broken homes gotta be living stones around where they get your stone live to know and die to make him known till he take us home let's go all right so from the

Reformed Baptist pastor this is the music that I love and years ago shoot

I led our congregation in fanatic numerous times at the beginning of the service but over the years as we continue to get into the scripture like you said

Rob we find that there there are certain limitations for the worship service this this

Christian rap solid Christian rap good but it's not for the worship service rise not for the corporate gathering of the church because it tends the music itself in that case tends to take away and the theatrical necessity of I mean cuz when you're rapping you got to I mean you got to put yourself into it there ain't no such thing as monotone rap you got to give yourself to it

I take your word for it for me that I don't think

I put on the list our guidelines that we get from scripture the passage that says we're to do things decently in order yeah is that subjective or objective is there

I think you know I'll take that kind of thing and and apply some of your regulative and normative principles to it right so decently in an order

I think ultimately there's a there's a general consensus of what is decent and what is orderly at the same hand there's a there's a freedom that would cause folks to trip up that you may have so though it may not be out of order to praise

God with electric guitars in a Lutheran Church it may trip up somebody and if it does

I'll use as example but if it does then you just put it down I just I think that's how you use those guardrails

I'm which I'm open for a rebuke on that and correction but I believe that to some degree there's there's absolutely no question what's decent and what's order and then in other areas you think well

I don't really like the way that the church does their music but it really ain't for me anyway music isn't sung to me

I'm not the audience of the music if you don't play in the band you're not even a member of the person who's preparing the music and I'll say this is a caveat there's a lot of songs that I just don't like that I play lead guitar on and I don't tell anybody which ones

I don't like because they're not for me anyway so I've learned to just go ahead and put that in my pocket and try to grin and bear it on some of them and try not to mess the song up you know

I think you and I align perfectly if I'm hearing you correctly

I think you and I align perfectly on that on that thought so you're saying that I shouldn't exercise my freedom despite the conscience of somebody else if it calls your brother to sin of course not of course not

I mean I wouldn't do anything in front of you that I may be at liberty to do if I thought it'd trip you up whether that's music whether that's a shooting a pistol outside in the backyard whether it's riding a motorcycle or anything that I know that I'm a perfect I know there's just examples of things that we could probably all get behind but you know

I know that there's other things that I absolutely will not partake in or be a part of or won't be around when they're done that I know that there's some of y 'all that do that and I don't

I don't begrudge you one bit because of it I wouldn't say anything negative about you because I believe that you're

Christian and I wouldn't talk about a sinner that way let alone my brother right so I know the gospel enough and I'm strong enough in the

Lord not to be tripped up by those things but I have people that follow me you know

I have four daughters as for starters and I have a wife who I'm responsible for and if they saw me in a spot where y 'all were doing something that I've told them is vehemently wrong now

I'm a hypocrite right I'm a hypocrite not only am I worse than a liar because I'm taking part in something that I've told my kids not to I've led them completely astray so and there's there's things that whenever they get older we may discuss but in this moment in my house this is the way we're gonna do it they get in their own house they've got their own rules they had to buy through as long as I'm paying the rent and putting light on they're gonna do what big

John says and they don't have to like it that's not it that's that's not a requirement but that in there pop and smoke it and don't smoke it yeah

I definitely I definitely agree that yeah it's more important than my preferences and my freedom and the gospel is more important than that as well and the fruit of the

Spirit involves self -control that's true yeah and that I'm about hit the nail on the head that's absolutely right and that and that's evidence having portraying that or applying that what we were just talking about is would be evidence of that self -control from the

Spirit that you're talking about and what we're doing is we're walking the tightrope guys of how of human preferences right walk in the tightrope of can

I have a preference in how I praise hmm we have the freedom to do that yeah and I would say absolutely yes

I do have a preference of what and I'm glad I said this earlier

I do have a preference of what ministers to me stylistically they are that prepare me that center me that ground me in my private time of worship

I play music in the background a lot and I'm just me and the Lord in my private time of worship

I've got things that I play in the background of that that me what's going on it's not weird meditation but I have preferences in that we'll have to make a meme of John in in Jonathan in yoga pants

I will not about is you know if I I haven't in a few years

I've had a lot of privilege throughout the years by tenor and evangelism and and different things to preach and share in a ton of different cultures across the world and man you go worship with them people in Haiti I promise you better bring some earplugs because your ears are gonna better believe they're gonna have eight foot speakers and it ain't loud enough

I mean like you think you're miles away literally it's not 11 that's right and you know and in Honduras and those places like that I mean they'll have 10 people in a room and I mean just peel the paint off walls but culturally

I'm not gonna say turn it down you know I mean that my house you know and but not vertical life there's there's a standard of which we lead music in there is there is a standard but it looks different in Rob's church across the right two blocks away at first Baptist you know and Rob's former pastor and I had long conversations you know about music and this kind of stuff and we weren't far apart but at the same time there were things that we just disagreed on and that's okay it's

I think that's important for us to understand this respect of a local house I think it's a respect of where people are at so would

I ever carry a King James Bible to go preach at a church and you better believe it and I go back home to the mountains and have an invitation to preach it some of those and I say this respectfully adore backwoods

Baptist Church very rural back in the country churches that I will never look down on again because that's where God saved me that's where that's where I stand on their shoulders today and yeah and when

I'm invited to go back to those places King James Bible out of honor for them that's right the truth is still the truth

I'm over there to be a stumbling block you know versus when I get to go over here on the other side of Maiden and preaching the african -american church over here we're gonna throw down and there's nothing that anybody thinks anything about you know what

I mean is you have maybe a hyper normative perspective you know but there is a liberty but the theology's important you know maybe that helps us transition

Robert because stylistically I'll just throw this out there

I think stylistically as long as and what Paul was right as long as there's capability of corporate unity

I think stylistically there is a lot of liberty I think where there should be no liberty is the soundness of the theology that's exactly right yeah oh you know

I love worshiping in Pentecostal churches that would be more my style that would be more my preference can

I go have the spirit and truth worship services at a very sober

Presbyterian or liturgical church yeah absolutely the gospels the same it's a big year you know so I do have my preferences but I think while I go there is an extreme that's impossible for us to corporately do it yep you can't corporately do that I can't rap for nothing but I'm with you thought

I like listen I'm with you I was you know those guys and so but I can't

I can't rap for nothing I'm glad to rip let's hear it

I think it's

I think it's what we're all trying to get around yeah so maybe that helps us and back to what

Tyler was saying to to do that to put it in a bowl on that and everything let everything be done decently in order where where's that found that's in Corinthians that's where the

Corinthian Church everybody was doing what they wanted to do because they wanted to be the center of attention they wanted to be the spectacle they wanted to get there to put their two cents in and so when all this was going on it was chaos and so that's why the

Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit of God told them that everything be done decently in order if one of you has a word then one of you speak that word and then if an if two or three of you have a word then two of you shut your mouth while the while the one speaks let him say it and then you either agree or disagree with it but let it be done in course we see a definite course a definite order a definite laying out of clarity and unity in peace

I think what we're pressing on Big John and Robert this isn't one of our questions

I'd like to ask this is there a regular regulation scripturally in in style in style with not going to the extreme of non -corporate but but I and I'll give my opinion but I'd love you guys to speak this because what

I hear from the regulative side in this day and time is not an evaluation of theology more of an evaluation of origination of a song or or stylistically of assault and so the regulative camp over here is like screaming against those things the normative camp is over here advocating for those things not necessarily for bad theology churches and those kind of stuff but advocating for the theology of a song and so this is to me this is what we're talking about worship war that is happening is actually among now the mainstream is now beginning to divide more because they're the regulative is pulling over here so for example like I love the song

King of Kings okay real song and I love that song and the

Church of Christ was born in the spirit lit a flame and like that and it's gospel truth of all this you're not yielding it's not things so I mean it's like man there's just like there's this powerful unity gospel birthing of the resurrection of Christ you know but then what

I agree with the theology of the church of guilt no I wouldn't

I wouldn't so does that does that disqualify the song because it comes from it originated with a bad theological origination but yet the song is theological so I think that's the new argument when it comes to to worship music in in praise music

I follow you come from I can see come from the regulative side is saying because it has bad origination a bad theologians wrote a good song means now the song is immediately bad because we don't want to advocate for bad theologians sure side is saying the theology is good so we think we should have a right if the writer has bad were you guys in that I think there's some

I'm going to use Philippians with a little bit of Liberty I think in this we're talking about preaching the gospel in this so it's taken one of 12 now

I want you to know brothers and what has happened to me actually resulting in the advancement of the gospel so that it has become known to what the whole

Imperial Guard so that everyone else that my imprisonment is for Christ most of the brothers and the

Lord have gained confidence from the imprisonment and dare even more to speak to the message fearlessly some some to be sure preach

Christ out of envy and strife but others out of goodwill these do so out of love knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel so that others proclaim

Christ out of rivalry not sincerely seeking to cause me trouble in my imprisonment what does it matter just in every way whether out of false motives are true

Christ is proclaimed and if and in this I rejoice yes I will rejoice so I think that in some cases regardless of who wrote the song if it's theologically sound and Christ is being exalted above all and the gospel message is being proclaimed in music

I don't care who wrote it there's a song that we've played before that I'm reasonably certain is written by one this

Pentecostal group right I know I don't agree with their theology at all you all right was it that shocking

I don't agree with their theology at all however the song

I can't find a fault with a single line of the song and it upholds Jesus it uplifts

Jesus his sacrifice his resurrection and we play it and I would be willing to bet nobody in my church knows who even sings the song originally because a lot of them don't even listen to Christian music undoubtedly judging by the sounds

I hear come out of their car sometimes they leave so I don't know if they know who wrote the song or not as far as I know they may think we wrote the song so does that answer your question brother

Jonathan or I think there are some definitely some caveats

I'm not in disagreement with either of you two on on that absolutely that there are times where Hill song puts out something solid like there was that song shout to the

Lord back in the 90s right now that was Hillsong and that's just quoting the

Psalms and I understand that there's supposedly somebody who is solid theologically on staff at Hillsong they're like the faithful few

I guess but I see that the two main caveats I see to having some of that stuff in the church is on the

Association if we're doing it above board often that means royalties that means song song credits and so one thing that I I personally am weary of is are we taking money for the tithe and putting that in song royalties to false churches

I think that's definitely worth considering and I know that there are ways around that I'm at a church right now that does sing some stuff

I don't necessarily like the writers of you know the you know they sing some stuff from like Hillsong and such but they don't record it they don't live stream as far as the internet's concerned that worship didn't exist and so it is just between the pastor and the body and so I think there's like I said there are ways around that where that that that hurdle is not there but we also brought up Romans 14 that Big John did talking about being a hindrance to others and I'm also cautious in the circumstance of say a new believer who is in the church and we sing a

Bethel song and they go home and they look up Bethel and they find videos of them trying to chant people back from the dead

I don't know those are extremes I know those are but they are they are caveats worth thinking through that part of what we're doing here is thinking through this how do we how do we relate to the stuff because you do find good stuff that is edified the

Saints from Hillsong from Elevation and such but we don't necessarily want to endorse everything and so there's there's definitely a little bit of give -and -take there but wise as serpents and innocent as doves

I just I just said something that's where you're going tonight you know with normative and regulative this is something that is being pressed in the forefront

Justin Peterson and other guys you know I mean they're they're they're going after this and they're making very broad paintbrush swoops for anybody in these other camps that we are to lay an axe to all of them like we shouldn't have none and of course they're getting pushback on the other side and so again there's you know attention to the conversation it makes sense

I must help in the tension zone MacArthur said it this way you know there's bad theologians that's wrote good songs and there's good theologians that's written really bad music you know you have to evaluate how does this song if we're going to give our service

I usually preach about an hour so two -thirds of our service is preaching for the third of our service we're gonna have about a total of kind of breaking up and down but a total of 30 minutes of music so if I'm gonna make a third of our service praise among the congregation and corporate music then that's third of the service had better be theologically sound this is equally as sound as what

I'm trying to free our worship team and I worship this kind of stuff

I mean they're very very conscious of the music that they present I don't know that we spend a whole lot of time evaluating the writer you know and that's what we get accused of a lot we're very serious about the theology of every soul we're not as conscious of hey did where did this come from you know and so I'm just trying to figure out how important that is to some it's extremely important and some they don't care at all and so again we're currently right now we're sort of in that tension zone of paying attention to that so what do you think

I think it's it's always wise this will sound cliche but it's always wise to err on the side of caution and our caution be me when

I say caution I mean leaning into the scriptures heavily when it comes to making those decisions because wisdom wisdom is taking the knowledge that you have been given and applying it rightly that's what wisdom is and so like what you guys have been saying has been good knowledge now the wisdom comes and and that's the beautiful thing about I'm gonna say about not being a state church right there's no dictation on on the local church that says every local church has to do things this way but the leadership the the pastors and the elders must be given to the

Word of God you know all things like you like you all have been saying must be given to the

Word of God in all things but that does not mean that just because one church does it

I'll use this term does it differently than other churches that said churches are wrong

I think that's important statement right there and that and and I know I asked the question

I'll tell you that's where I'm at like I think it's fine if that is a conviction that the

Lord has given some church as long as it's not viewed as legalism their congregations of this kind of thing

I think that's fine and I think there's other churches that may I mean honestly there's some

Bethel music that I like personally that I think are good corporate worship songs now do I agree with Bethel theology no you know what

I mean so that that's all I'm trying to say is and I don't

I don't like the pragmatic approach of why to do something and not do something that's really the primary argument that I'm hearing is pragmatism well what if and there is this hyper scenario so it just in case this hyper scenario ever would happen then we shouldn't well so I would say it's like I understand what

Tyler's saying a new believer shows up and we sing a Bethel song but here's the reality every single new believer we have every single one is in a ongoing discipleship relationship with a mature believer so there's good new believers just left to themselves to try to figure stuff out you know it is there is that intentional walking with and so they have immediate people you'll have conversations with so that's why we do feel a little more

Liberty to be like you know what if we want to sing this song we can say hey we like this song we don't endorse this church this is a great songs list you know

I mean whatever it's because of behind the scenes relationship as discipleship relationships that we have that are very intentional now if you don't have that and I understand yes you should like you're on the side of now we want it we don't want anything that could be whatever

I don't know it's again I don't want to sound wishy -washy about it well

I think that does make the difference of Jonathan that you you've got that intentional discipleship atmosphere with new believers

I've personally been in churches where that was not the case and sometimes it was a new believer was for lack of a better terms for lack of a better term was at the mercy of the worship yeah and so I think there are there are caveats there are remedies there are ways around things absolutely

I know my preference is to have no Bethel but like I said that's my preference on this well you go back to old guys

I don't feel like him or not you know you wouldn't agree with this theology most of us but we like but you know and David Wilkerson you know what

I mean and the things those those guys would fall more on the Pentecostal side of stuff the very ones that were championing that music is taking over the house of God you know

I mean that's they're doing singing and there's no fire in the house of God no power in the house of God and this emotionalism stuff

I mean they were you know they were split down the middle on that with the worship of music the word worship of emotion versus the theology of the song it's not

I get the pushback against that I just I just see good conservative people now and again

I guess the reason I see good theological people in foolish arguments over something that's really not an argument that the church is just finding something to argue over it's like why are we even arguing over this why do

I feel like I have to defend my position why do you feel like you have to be in your position when we are like peanut butter and jelly when it comes to theology when it comes to talk to the authority of scripture importance of discipleship just looking at something to compare ourselves among ourselves tear each other down or somehow somebody get a leg up on the other one or doesn't stop and I think that's the warning that I have on my heart to not make this

Robert Knight try to dominate the conversation but I just feel like that's the warning that I have on my heart tonight for the church is it's back to that preference and you know that tightrope that a lot of times people are navigate these people it's just not about us at all you know feedback on that well

I'm glad you brought that up and ask that question because that was actually the heart of one of the questions so I think it really was one of the questions that was asking and we'll probably there unless you guys want to have a last word so we think about your last word but but I personally if you guys will give me just a chance before we end

I've been hold again and building it buddy that's right so first and foremost

I want to say this before I lay it all out that I was heavily heavily challenged by Pastor John there personally because I would say like I said the big

John just a few minutes ago I would heavily align with you on the fact that I do not want to be pragmatic

I don't want to I don't want to do things pragmatically I don't want to think pragmatic battle won't to argue pragmatically so challenge there to go back and say okay here's here's my stance let me let me look look in the scripture and see what it says and see if there's biblical support for that stance and see where the scripture actually leads me so I was

I was challenged on that with that said and we don't want to be pragmatic but the normative side of things seems to be the more pragmatic side and so that that line of thinking of using using this song or whatever seems to be kind of pragmatic thinking because it's on the normative side and the normative side is is the more pragmatic side and I may be wrong and I can be corrected so there's that and then the last thing if I was and then here

I go not wanting to be pragmatic this is where I was challenged but I'm gonna say it anyway because I think it's legitimate

I just I hope to find I hope I'm saying it because there's biblical support if there's not then

I you know I can change definitely but if I was coming into the conversation

I was offering advice to somebody I would bring in the caveats that Tyler talked about I would bring in the what

Claude talked about where you know we always on the side of caution I would agree with that and then the third thing and I think this is for me

I think it's fair I think this is a fair argument and I also think it's very if somebody thinks it's not fair and they don't want to use this argument so it's fine but to me

I think it's a fair argument and I'm facing this based on something

I heard you know years ago so I hope if I'm wrong somebody can correct me but I think

I think we can think of proximity and what

I mean by that is I think it was John John and Charles Wesley if I'm not mistaken some of the accusation against them is that they would use bar salt yes and that was the accusation you know use the you know yes

I got muted for some reason so people said well it they weren't meaning you know bar as in drinking bar they were talking about bar music bar songs but the accusation from some people was they were using bar you know traditional bar songs and making them into hymns but we have going back to him knows we have

John and Charles Wesley hymns and our Baptist hymnal and we are so far removed from the time of John and Charles Wesley that nobody unless you've read any kind of history or biographies would would know that argument existed and Martin Luther did the same thing right and and and so we're so far from removed from Martin Luther that you know we just wouldn't know those arguments or those critiques against them but here we have a closer proximity of time with Hillsong or Bethel and their music or elevation we know their theology we know their music and it we're in a close proximity of time with them that it is an argument so the very fact that it is an argument may be causing me to lean more towards what

Claude was saying that we should err on the side of caution now I know that's coming more from a pragmatic argument and so like I said before I'm I've been challenged and I go back and look at scripture but I just wanted to say that will be one of the things that I would talk about in that conversation so I'm really thankful for what you guys said tonight your input

I think it was very important very good conversation we could continue to go on and on any last words of encouragement or warnings to pastors worship leaders in your churches before we leave

I'll just say real quick in the statement do everything decently in an order I think it's a much bigger conversation at least an application

I think we I think eventually it would be great to circle back around to some of this because what may appear decently in an order in Claude's church may seem chaos and so in somewhere else or may seem boring in John's church you know you know so I do think in the end that there is you can't have this conversation without dealing some with culture and I'm 14 he only wrote really there was not

I'm not saying that it's not applicable across all spectrums that's not true but absolutely but I would say how they worship in Jerusalem I'm certain look very different or in Rome or you wouldn't have a very

Jewish more Jewish root root culture in Jerusalem versus the

Greeks how they were working and and so I just think more culture in context when it comes to scholars worship so so I think again that's part of the pool between regulative and normative is again targeting stylistically where things are at you know so I think that's something that's really important to pay attention to and I think okay the variance styles from church to church

I'm just gonna say that I don't think that we should look at someone who has a different style and say they're wrong and I'm right

I think we can evaluate their theology their doctrine and even the fruit that their church bears and in do fruit inspection and and make some judgment calls you know

I just I just think that you have to weigh that in with with what worship the

Lord and spirit and in truth is I think you have to weigh in culture and I think that's why

God created multiple cultures. I think God loves new things. I think he's not looking for just one box and say this every single church should look just like this.

I think that's the beauty of the body of Christ. We really something that should be celebrated in my opinion versus always trying to weigh in.

You know, let God do what God does. Let's see what God does with his creation. With his magic.

And God is, because I am even a hyper -sophisticated person,

God is creating his worship throughout the world because he is establishing his church across the world and I think there are people that worship him with no instruments, very little sound, sober, quiet, but are deeply worshipping him and I think there are others that are very sincerely not silliness but with lifted hands, shouts of joy, dancing before the

Lord and I know that makes me feel good. But I do think there is a liberty to do that in some cultural context where it feels very decent, very in order, very accepted and raises the level of worship of the body of Christ.

That's all I would say. I mean, that's where I'm at tonight. So again, I'm always wanting to go.

That's the reason I was asking a question. I'm just trying to speak into this. I'm just speaking my position right now. But if there is a right way, then

I would love to know verse and text and let's get after it and preach it like a herald.

I'm sorry to interject but I wanted to ask you this question earlier and I was trying to combine a lot of the things that I heard you guys saying before at different times but putting them together.

So we all know that our feelings, we're definitely going to feel something if we're hearing our preference.

I mean, you're going to feel something if your preference is happening. But our hearts should be melting or exploding for Christ when biblically, when we're hearing the truth, the theological truth about Jesus Christ.

And so would this be a sign of spiritual maturity? And I think

I'm trying to summarize here what I think it was Big John that was saying or maybe it was you, Pastor John.

I could go to Haiti and be in that environment and my heart melt or explode for Christ because of I'm hearing the theological truth or I go to a

Pentecostal church or I go to, you know, a Presbyterian Lutheran liturgical church and my heart can melt and explode there.

Even though it's so dry and so liturgical but it's so filled with theological truth that my heart is exploding because of the truth of Christ that I'm hearing.

Is that a sign of biblical maturity that you can go to both places? The only place that I get really distracted is when something is done so poorly because I'm a musician.

I just say turn it all off and just go off the pedal, man. Just turn the congregation loose and do what you can do well.

I think so many times churches in this argument are trying to imitate something that they're not. Again, that's what

I'm trying to say. I think culture is very important. And so however

God designed you, but absolutely, Robert. I think that is the heart of worship, the spirit of improvement.

I think that's my frustration just on the flip side of that.

I feel like this argument becomes so stinking immature in many situations when people are posing as mature

Christians. Yeah, they're just demonstrating their immaturity and a lot of times mature Christians roll their eyes and say, look at something you've done.

I can worship. I am worshiping. I'm going to worship no matter what. I mean,

I'm in my car or walking down the road or people think I'm weird. I'm talking to the

Lord all the time, man. On the phone or to the Lord, one or the other. It's like standing in a red light.

I'm just talking away and talking to the Lord. It's worship, man. That's just the life we should be.

And so that's why sometimes those that are mature in the faith, they just sort of roll your eyes and immature.

I don't have time to talk about this. This is something that has no impact on the mission of the gospel, at least where I'm at.

If it has an impact where you're at, stop trying to throw water on everybody else because it has no impact on us.

And I do understand there's personal convictions and there's all kinds of things that play into stuff. But yeah,

I think it is. I think it's a sign of maturity. Tyler and Claude, if y 'all have a last word, y 'all go ahead and say it.

If not, Claude, I'd love to hear you share the gospel with us. And Tyler, when he finishes, if you'd pray for us in closing.

Thank the Lord. So the gospel is this. Christ died for our sins, was buried, and on the third day he arose.

He had to die in our place, in our stead, because we were unable to make payment for our sin.

So he was born in the flesh, lived a sinless life, crucified, tortured.

More so than the physical was the wrath of God itself that he took upon himself again in our stead, in our place.

He was taken down from that cross. He was put in the grave, and on the third day he arose.

He ascended to the Father where he ever lives to make intercession for us. And so what do we do with that?

What do you do with that as you're hearing this? What do you do with this gospel when you come to topics and ideas like music and styles and so on and so forth?

What you do is simply this. You throw all the other junk out and look at Christ.

Look to Christ and be saved. Repent of your sins. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's pray. Father God, I'm grateful for the opportunity to sit down with these men and be sharpened as we discuss such a crucial idea as how do we worship you?

What could we possibly give to you? It says in Micah. What could we ever bring to show how grateful we are for all that you've done and all that you are?

And the reality is you've shown us. You've shown us how we give back, how we praise you.

And God, would you burn anew who you are into us. That we may praise you for who you are.

Not according to stylistic preferences or certain talking points, but according to who you are.

Let us praise you for you. In Christ's name we pray.

Amen. Amen. Thank you everybody for watching The Laborer's Podcast.

We really appreciate your support and we hope to see you real soon. Thank you for joining

The Laborer's Podcast. Remember, Jesus is King. Live in the victory of Christ.

Speak with the authority of Christ. And go share the gospel of Christ. Be sure to tune in next time for The Laborer's Podcast.