Original Sin...Truth or Heresy??

The Apologetic Dog

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All right, welcome everybody to another episode of The Parish Reformed.

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Today we have Jeremiah Nortier, or if you're French, we'll say Nortier. And we're going to be talking about a little topic called the doctrine of original sin.

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Some people have an issue with, some people may not believe that or understand it really well.

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So hopefully we can maybe shed a little bit of light on that in scripture. So Jeremiah, welcome buddy, you there?

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Yes, sir. Thanks for having me on, Trey. There he is. So how's it going up in Arkansas?

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Really good. As you know, we're still trying to figure out all the tech stuff. We had a really cool background that we will be throwing y 'all's way soon.

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So right now it's just a still shot, but we have it to where it kind of moves and we'll let it be a surprise for our viewers in the future.

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Good deal. So you're in a red room with the apologetic dog behind you. I like it. So original sin, man, what do you think about this?

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You know, we've got a lot of friends out there that don't believe in original sin and they say that if you don't, and I do believe, if you don't understand or let's just put it this way, if you don't accept, if you don't accept the doctrine of original sin, you cannot accept the gospel of Christ because you can't know it, right?

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So what would you say to that? Yes. So like we've talked about before, the doctrine of original sin is actually, for one, it's orthodox.

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And when you study it in scripture, it's going to have implications on how you understand the gospel because it has a direct implication on our anthropology, right?

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Our study of who man is in scripture. So, yeah, I mean, you have to understand original sin to understand the gospel.

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Right. Because if you're rejecting, you know, I think the main objection that people have when they're not looking at scripture and coming from scripture outward, but they're looking at the way the world works and then looking at scripture, trying to make sense of it.

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They look at the doctrine of original sin, that you're held guilty and responsible for what

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Adam did in the garden. It's just not fair, right? Because I wasn't there. I didn't do it.

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How am I held responsible? For that, right? Right. Yes. So for one, what we're bringing in the question is

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God's justice, right? For one, he gets to define what's just, what's fair and what's unfair. And we have to understand is if we look to Jesus in saving faith, we are getting his righteousness imputed to us.

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Well, by the same respect, by the same principle, how is that fair? That we can be declared right before God on the basis of what

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Jesus Christ did. Because we have two federal heads. So we'll kind of unpack more of this term.

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But you're either represented by Adam in the garden or you're represented by Christ. And if you don't like being represented by Adam, well, in the same breath, then there's no way that you could be represented by Christ.

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So when people look to scripture, especially as we dive into Romans chapter five, there's only two options.

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And, you know, I think what's kind of hidden, a hidden assumption when people say it's not fair that Adam represented me, it's as though they are assuming that they would have done something different than what

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Adam did in the garden. And that's the whole thing. You wouldn't have done anything better than Adam.

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Right. So just like our president, when he makes a bad decision, it affects the whole country. Right.

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So it's a similar deal. And it's the thing you're exactly right. You start reading the Bible. Just here's the deal.

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When you don't accept original sin. It's just a hard left right out of the gate and it's just you're breeding a

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Pharisee, right? Because you read the Bible and say, well, you know, if I was in the garden, like you said, if I was in the garden,

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I wouldn't have eaten the apple. No, you would have. You just done a lot sooner. Right. Because what God does is perfect.

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And he picked the perfect representative of all of mankind, which was Adam. And if he had picked you or me, we'd have done the same thing, but a lot quicker and probably a lot worse than he would have.

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And you start reading the Bible this way and start saying, well, you know, if I was in Exodus and I saw God do all these plagues and these these divide in the water of the

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Red Sea and part in that. And we walked across and I heard his thundering voice from Mount Sinai with the

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Ten Commandments. I would not have made a golden calf. Yeah, you would have.

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You just done a lot sooner and a bigger calf. You know, if I walked in the days of Jesus, I would have believed. No, you wouldn't have.

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Yeah, because there was people there who really did not believe. But this is what it does. It produces the self -righteous, pharisaical understanding.

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And man, you just can't you can't understand the gospel. You can't see the gospel for what it is.

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Back to what you said, the doctrine of imputation. You know, if you don't accept the first Adam's imputation, you cannot accept the second

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Adam's imputation of righteousness, because if you're wanting fairness, this will becomes a doctrine of works.

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Right. Because you like, well, I'm going to earn it because I did it. Right, because I did X, Y, Z, so therefore

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I earn it anyway. So what scriptures would you go to to talk to somebody about this? There's a lot.

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There's a lot. And so what we're talking about is the original sin of man in the garden.

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So what's important and we'll look at this in a moment in Genesis three, but Paul gives us the doctrinal insight in Romans chapter five.

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So both are really important. And so directly what we're talking about is in Romans chapter five. And so it really begins back in verse twelve.

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So I'll read this verse and then the rest of it's really just explaining kind of the same thing, just in a lot of clarity.

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So therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin.

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And so death spread to all men because all sinned. Now, when you look at that verse alone, there are kind of the

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Pelagian side of things that say, well, you see, everybody sins. So it's not that we're inheriting any type of nature.

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We're inheriting some type of guilt from Adam. And if we were to look at this, just at this verse alone, then it would be harder for us to be like, no,

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God has declared men sinful. Right. And so it's as you continue to read from there, we get that reason why all men have sinned.

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And it's because we have all died in Adam, essentially. Let me let me show you this real quick.

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For the Pelagians out there who don't know their Pelagians because they've never heard of Pelagianism, right.

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They just believe that you're born perfect and that one day you probably will sin because the people outside have, you know, outside of you, all the people that you you're born in this world and they've already sinned, now you're newborn into the world and eventually they're going to influence you to sin.

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And then you sin, right. But you are perfect. It's all their fault. And now everything in your relationships, you're blaming other people because if it wasn't for you influencing me to sin,

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I wouldn't have sinned. And here's where they get this. Romans 7. So I'm going to hit that real quick and then we'll come back to 5, OK, because this is what they'll say in Romans 7.

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Paul says this in verse 7. Let's see here. What shall we say?

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That the law is sin? By no means. Yet, if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin.

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Hmm. If it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin, for I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had said you shall not covet.

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But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

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I once was alive apart from the law. But when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. So they would argue, well, see, if there is no law, there is no sin.

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Once I was alive apart from the law. Therefore, there was a time in my life where I didn't sin. But when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died.

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And he's talking about spiritually he died here, not physically, because he keeps writing down the, you know, chapter 7.

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So he's saying that's when he spiritually died, when he finally broke the commandment. And because if there's no law, there's no sin, which he doesn't say that.

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But that's the that's the quick hand eye trick, you know what I'm saying? Don't watch the left hand while the right hand's doing it.

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So that was that would be their argument that there is no, you know, there's no law. There's no sin, which like you're about to read here in chapter five, they forgot to read chapter five because you're about to read verse 13.

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Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. So 13 really kind of just continues the context of the whole train of thought.

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So Paul says for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given.

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But sin is not. Wow. Think about that. So you got to think, too, the law of God has been written on the imago

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Dei, the image bearer of God. So men have always been held accountable to God's standard. We know it intuitively from the heart.

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Right. And so as God communicates with these people, there's there's always that standard.

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Right. And so I think you touched on a second ago, Pelagians kind of see every new every person that's being born is kind of a new

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Adam. Right. And you got this clean slate and it's because of your environment that you choose sin.

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But you're basically kind of you're born good. Right. Or in this neutral, clean state.

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And it's because your environment that you choose sin. And so I want to just I want to I want to stress that verse real quick before you go on.

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So if Romans seven, Paul says, if your understanding of Romans seven is if there is no law, there is no sin.

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Once I was alive apart from the law, meaning there was a time in his life where there was no law.

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Well, right here it says, let's read again what you just said. For sin indeed was in the world before the law was given.

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Sin indeed was in the world before the law was given.

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So that kind of knocks that whole argument out. Oh, yeah. Keep going. No, no.

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So, yeah, we'll just we'll just keep rolling with it. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

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And we could literally break down all these verses, Trey. I think this is just Paul's basically saying the same thing, just just really telling us what it means with these two federal heads.

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Let's break that down real quick, like that verse. And that's huge for him. Right. So yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who is to come.

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So there's actually a lot jam packed in here. For one, we death is reigning because of man's innateness, right?

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His his sin desire always results in death. So like that reigning is is like a king, right?

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Not like water. It's reigning like a king. It's huge. I mean, it's huge word. Yeah. All this is so important because sin is reigning.

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Sin isn't just man, we're born and we really want to tell the truth to everybody.

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We're really good. No, we're born depraved. Right. And so you have how many kids?

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Four, five, five, five kids when they were born. Did you have to tell them how to tell the truth or did you have to tell them how to lie?

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Hey, you know, I had a friend call me up one day, said, Trey, what are you doing right now? I said, well, I'm just teaching my kids how to be bad.

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No, that never happened. I have to teach them how to be good. Right. Right. Yeah. They they know they lie on their own.

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They know what they should do. And yet they they desire to do the opposite because, you know, we have this self consciousness, right?

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We have the impression of God on us. So we know we ought to do. But from birth, sin is still reigning in our lives.

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And that's why we do see death. And what's interesting with the Pelagian view is in their mindset, babies should not die, right, because they're not sinning in this way that they would expect.

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So death is a result of sin that started with Adam. And we see this permeating all throughout his posterity, through all of his offspring.

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Now, I want to just add to this where it says death reigned from Adam to Moses. Right.

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Even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam. So from Adam to Moses.

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And then all those people in between those two men, sin was reigning and death was reigning because of sin.

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And the two things that these two men had, Adam had the law, don't eat it. Right. Moses had the law.

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But all these people in between did not have the law, but yet death still reigned because sin was in the world before the law came.

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Indeed, it was in the world. So it's not that if there is no law, there is no sin. No sin.

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I mean, the law has always been here and the sin, I'm sorry, sin has always been here, even before the law of Moses.

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So go ahead. Yeah, that's really good. So I think we're in verse 15, but the free gift is not like the the trespass.

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So what we're about to see is God's grace is in so much more abundance within Christ than what

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Adam had previously done. So we're going to see that Jesus and this this federal headship is so much greater in light of what happened with Adam.

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For if many died through one's man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by grace of that of one man,

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Jesus Christ abounded for many. Now, something that we want to keep in mind here is because some people go like this really bothers me,

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Trey. Some people go to this passage to try to prove universalism. And you have to strip that away from the whole context of what

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Paul's been building up from Romans one all the way to five here. But we're going to see the all of it's applied to Jesus.

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It's all that are in in him. Right. And if we see all or many in Adam, it's those particular people that are born from the womb that are in Adam, because Adam represented all humanity.

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Christ represented all those who would believe in him. Yes. So, yeah, as far as federal headship, because we're building up to,

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I think verse 19 is going to be real key in all this. Obviously it's all congruent together. So verse 16 says, and the free gift is not like the result of one man's sin for the judgment following the one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

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And so we're starting to see that contrast between justification and condemnation,

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Trey. These are forensic legal courtroom terms, right? You're either justified just as if you never sinned, declared righteous or you're condemned.

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So that's kind of, and then you got the judge, right. That makes the pronouncement. So we're starting to see these terms. Justification stands in opposition with condemnation.

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Verse 17, for if, because of the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man,

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Jesus Christ. So kind of like what we said earlier, whatever you do with Adam, there is a correlation to Jesus and it's so much better, right?

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So you can't be mad of your federal head with Adam, right? Because then you can't, by those same rules and principles, you can't have

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Jesus Christ as your federal head, but it gets more stronger to me. Verses 18 and 19 here really make a strong case.

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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, right.

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And we understand that this does apply to all men from birth. Then we'll continue to get into the heart of man.

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What, what that looks like, right. From the womb. Therefore, just as one trespass led to condemnation for all men.

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So one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men.

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Now this is where I've had those weird conversations that say, oh, so all men are declared righteous before God.

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And it's like, that's not the argument that's trying to be made. It's if those that are in Christ, all the ones that are in him, they are justified.

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They have now received justification. Well, it's not understanding the, you know, federal headship. You know, it's not understanding that doctrine.

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Go ahead. Yeah. So I think verse 19, this is probably the clearest, one of the clearest verses when we're talking to church of Christ or other people that deny original sin to mean that our nature, something happened with our nature and our standing before God.

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So verse 19, for as by the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners.

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So this is talking about all of Adam's posterity, right? All are under sin.

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Romans three has been building this case that for all of sin and fall short of the glory of God. And then earlier in Romans three, we see that both

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Jew and Gentile are unrighteous. So the many here in Adam is all of mankind.

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They were made sinners. Now this is by forensic declaration before God.

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God, when he saw Adam and Eve sin, he looked, and it's interesting if you look at the chronology, right?

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Eve is the one that was deceived, right? But who bore the, who bore the full weight of that?

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Well, it was both. But I would say Adam won. Right. Because he's the one who chose the federal head.

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Right. He, he, he knew better. She was deceived. He, he looked at it and he's like, all right, let's do it.

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You know, he literally, he was not deceived in it. He knew better. Right. Yes.

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And so go ahead. It's interesting because this kind of sets the paradigm for leadership in the, in the church and leadership in marriage.

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Um, it all goes back to the leader of the household, right? God, this is the roles that God has ordained, even though Eve is just as much a human being as Adam, but we see that the responsibility landed on Adam.

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And so for as the many, which is, um, of one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners.

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So God looks at mankind now in light of Adam and Eve with Adam being the representative and declares them sinners.

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Now, one objection I hear people say as well, you got, you have to transgress the law in order to be a sinner.

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And it gets into this kind of dilemma tray. Do we, are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we're sinners?

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And I think it's the latter. That's true. We sin, we will transgress, um, certain laws as we develop and all these things.

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And it's because we are sinners by nature. We've inherited this nature from our federal head, right.

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Adam in light of the fall. So this, this is crucial because this has to do with a correct anthropology of man.

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Who are we? That's a, that's a big saying to remember, to understand this. It's not that we're sinners because we sinned.

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We sin because we're sinners. This is just what we do. This is why you don't have to teach your kid not to bite somebody.

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Cause my kids never saw me bite my wife. It was like, you know what? I don't want to do that. I want to take a hunk of flesh out of somebody.

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You know, they've never seen me bite my wife, but, um, yeah. So go ahead.

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Verse verse 20. We'll, we'll clear that one up and I want to hit some stuff in verse in chapter seven to clear that up as well.

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Oh yeah. So it's multifaceted because God is legally declaring all men in Adam sinners, but it's deeper because we have a sin nature in light of the fall of man.

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So that's kind of embedded there. And then the verse goes on to say, so by the one man's obedience, this is talking about Christ, the many will be made righteous.

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And so this isn't universalism. It's the many that now by faith, right. In Christ are now justified.

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There's no longer condemnation looming over their account. And this is so crucial, uh,

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Trey, that God now can declare us righteous. This is in that courtroom setting, right?

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God is the righteous judge. And by our faith in Christ, there is that great exchange that happened.

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And this is really the crux of the gospel. We get the perfect righteousness of Jesus accredited to our account.

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And then all of our sin goes back to Calvary and it's paid for in full. And so now we walk the rest of our life in sanctification and this is at the very heart of the gospel.

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So, um, when we are made righteous, this is a legal transaction that's taken place.

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Yep. I love it. And a lot of people don't understand that. That it's so important. I didn't,

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I didn't understand that for forever. Right. Um, so Romans seven, you know, when we look at Romans seven, look in this,

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I mean, think about this, if we understand, if we read the Bible, here's what I tell people, read it slow, then slow down, read it again, and then read it a third time, but a little bit slower.

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Right. And remember what you read because it's all going, it's all telling you something.

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And just what you said there about your nature. I mean, our, our nature, we, we do what our nature wants.

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You know, this is like a dog has a nature and a rabbit has a nature. You know, if I put meat in a corner of a room and carrots in the corner of a room and I put a starving dog at the door and opened it, where's he going every single time to the meat, it's his nature.

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And the rabbit will always go. Now he could go to the meat. The rabbit could go to the meat, but guess what? He'll never go to the meat.

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He'll go to the carrots because that's his nature. And so us and our sinful nature, we will always choose sin over anything of God.

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It's our nature, you know, and if we say no to that, well, we're saying no to scripture and we're saying no to just the reality and the fact that we, we know that's true, you know, we don't want to apply that to us because at the end of the day,

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I don't want to think I'm that bad. Surely I would never do that. Well, you need to read

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Romans eight slow, but we went from five. Now let's just look at seven where we get this idea that if there is no law, there is no sin, so look at verse five of chapter seven for while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

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So our sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

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And I explained this a lot of times by saying, if you're walking in a park that you walk down this little path in this park every day, and you've done it for months and months and months.

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And there's this little bench, this little bench over there. You always pass by it. You never even look twice at it.

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And then one day you walk by this bench and there's a sign that says, wet paint, don't touch.

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What do you want to do? Touch it. What do you want to do? You want to touch it and you got to touch it. You're like, oh my goodness,

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I got to touch it. You've never thought twice about that bench. You never hardly noticed the bench of the months and months you've been walking there, but all of a sudden you see the sign that says, don't paint, don't touch.

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I mean, wet paint, don't touch. You're like, oh my goodness. Is anybody looking? And you walk over there and you're like, you just got to touch it.

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You know, cause we hate the law. Everything in us hates the law. And this is what it says that when we saw the law and we see the law, boy, arouses the sinful passions in us, you know?

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And so check this out. Verse eight. Well, let's look at verse seven again. Um, well then shall we say that the law is sin?

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No. Why the law come in chapter three, it tells us the law came to give us the knowledge of sin, not that there was no sin.

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It just gives us knowledge of sin. Like when we say, oh my goodness, I did this. That gave you the knowledge of sin because sin indeed was in the world before the law came.

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It says, I would not have known sin for, I would not have known. I didn't know. I didn't know I murdered someone.

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I didn't know I did this. I didn't know I did that. I didn't know that was wrong. Well, now, you know, there's a law, right?

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If a law had not said you shall not covet, look at verse eight, but sin.

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Now, if we're going to argue that there was a time in Paul's life where he was not a sinner. Well, let's just read this a little bit slower.

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Verse eight, but sin seizing an opportunity through the commandment produced in me.

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See, it was already in him. The sin, something that doesn't exist, cannot produce something, right?

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Something that does not exist, cannot produce something that does exist. So what produced in him all kinds of covetousness, what was it?

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Sin, it was the sin inside of him already. And apart from the law, sin lies dead.

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It lies dormant, that Greek word. It's not saying that it's dead. Like we're thinking dead, it's lying dormant.

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But as soon as it sees the law, boy, it starts arousing. Man, we want to do it. But when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

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In the very commandment, the promised life proved death to me for sin. Here it is again.

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Seizing an opportunity through the commandment deceived me. How can something that doesn't exist in you do something to you?

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See, the sin was already in him and it was the sin in him already that deceived him. It deceived him and through it killed me.

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So the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good then bring death to me?

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By no means. It was sin producing death in me through what is good in order that sin might be shown to be sin.

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It was the sin that was producing all this stuff in him because it was already in him. But when it saw the law, it was like, man,

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I hate the law. Just like we all do. You're a kid, right? The cookie jar.

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Don't get in the cookie jar. And you turn your back within seconds in the cookie jar.

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Why? Because we hate the law. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

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Heck yeah, it does. Couldn't have said it any better myself. There you go.

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So you want to go to Genesis three. Let's look at Genesis three real quick. Or if you got more there, add to it.

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Yeah. So a couple of thoughts before we go there. Um, because we're, we're, we're kind of talking about two concepts that are related and we see everything from what we've said in Romans five to Roman seven.

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We, since Adam, man was declared or made sinners. Now that's not just a declaration only.

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That's also showing us what our nature is from our very heart. And so I kind of would just touch on what

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Ephesians two describing man's nature. And then really, this is the same idea that Paul has earlier in Romans.

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When we start seeing like Romans three, I'm getting into that depravity of man and it's all encompassing man's not naturally seeking the things of God from birth.

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Rather it's the opposite. It's, um, we're, we're, we're fleeing from God in rebellion, essentially with our middle fingers in the air, right?

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We would rather do what we want to do, not what God has called us to do. And what we know from the heart, what we ought to do, right?

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Because even when there was no tangible law tablets, God has always been speaking to mankind.

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That's why, um, sin was crouching at the door with Cain, right. Because, um,

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God's talking with him at that point, right. Um, that looked a little bit different than Adam and Eve, you know, before the fall and you have

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Romans two, the law of God written on the pagan's hearts. Right. And they're going to be held accountable to that standard.

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So Ephesians two kind of gets into that anthropology, our nature. We are, we sin because we are sinners.

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We really see that this is something deep within our hearts. Paul's talking to Christians saying, and you were dead and your trespasses and sin.

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Okay. And so spiritually there was nothing good there, right? It's only we suppress the truth and we, um, we chase after our, our sinful nature in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the

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Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out, this is what going back to what you said, the desires of the body and the mind, and we're by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

29:37

Yeah, Jeremiah, look, that's just, that don't mean that truly. It don't mean that.

29:42

Right. People don't like, um, their hearts exposed what their true nature looks like, because I'm a good person.

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I think the proverb says that each man wants to proclaim his own goodness, not do some true retrospection and be like, oh man, that's, that's corrupt from the core, nothing that I could do possibly could make me right before God.

30:02

By nature, children of wrath. And like you're saying, here's what, you know, the number one verse in the world that everybody knows it is what?

30:11

John 3, 16. Yeah. But nobody knows, not many know or understand

30:17

John 3, 17 through 21. Like, yeah, that blows things out of the water.

30:24

We stand condemned already. Yeah. And it's the light come down into the world, right?

30:30

Yeah. This is the judgment light came out of the world, but we hate the light and we love darkness and it says everyone who does wicked things, everyone who does wicked things, who would that be?

30:40

That would be everyone. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, right? Everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light lest his work should be exposed.

30:52

Like we, we hate light and you can't, you don't have enough gumption in you to love something you actually hate or to hate something that you actually love.

31:00

You don't have the grit in you. I had a guy, you know, come to my house one time, um, bringing up this text to me and I went and I got some kale from the refrigerator and I asked him if he liked kale and he played, you know, college football, he went to the

31:13

NFL for a little bit, big dude. And I gave him some raw kale. He's like, never, never ate it.

31:19

And I said, take a bite. And he took a bite and he swallowed it and he's like, oh, it's bitter.

31:26

I was like, you want some water? So I went and got him some water and he's like, oh, that was nasty. I said, you didn't like that?

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He's like, no. I said, well, here, eat the rest of it. It was a handful of it. He goes, what do you mean? I'm not eating that. I said, no, just choose to love it.

31:38

Just choose to love it and eat it. You know, like you can't, you can't choose the love something you hate.

31:45

And so that's the thing, what you're talking about there by nature, we're children of wrath. We are, we do what our, our, our cravings want by our nature.

31:53

And so we won't come to light. But then it says in John 3, 21 says, but if anyone does what is true and comes to light, it's, it should be obvious that that was a work carried out in God, that God did a miracle in your heart, you know?

32:07

So just adding to what you were saying that, um, we do the desires of the body and of the mind by nature, children of wrath, go ahead.

32:17

I'm done. Well, no, no, that was good because I think all this is important as we start going back to Genesis, right?

32:23

Because we're showing it, we're showing clear teachings of the apostle Paul. You're showing clear teachings of Jesus that just said, look, when

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God shines his holiness and his light, uh, we scatter, right? We desire the darkness and we don't want the light to expose our sin, but that's why we stand condemned already.

32:41

And before we jump into Genesis, Jesus in Mark 7 says, um, that it's not what goes into a person that defiles a man, which already time out, it's like, wait, if we're all born

32:54

Pelagians with this clean state, then wouldn't that mean that Jesus is saying, no, it's not the, the circumstances that surround us that we take in, that's not the thing that corrupts us.

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And so he immediately goes into rebuking the Pharisees, which is a good representation of every sinner's heart, right?

33:14

We want, we want to be gods. We want to be the religious elite. We want, we want people to look at us and say, man,

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I want to be like that person because they're so awesome. But Jesus is saying, it's not that goes into a person that defiles a person.

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He says, what comes out of a person is what defiles him. What is corrupting is something that starts from within.

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He says, for from within, out of the hearts of man come. Now this, this, this covers everyone evil thoughts, right?

33:46

And from that sexual morality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting. You read that earlier in, um, uh,

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Roman seven, right? Wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness, all these evil, all these evil things come from within and they defile a person.

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So Jesus is getting more to the root of the problem and it's the heart of man. Right? It's not what we eat that defiles us.

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It's not what we take in from our surroundings, but it's what comes out of man's heart.

34:19

Yeah. It's Matthew 15 as well. Matthew 15 verses 18 through 20 says the same thing.

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These are what defile a person. And it's the list, you know, what comes out of a mouth proceeds from the heart that defiles a person.

34:32

So again, it's not, it's not I'm born perfect. And these people out here influenced me.

34:38

Now it's their fault. I'm a sinner and see how it just produces a self -righteous person. Now you always blame everybody else for your problems instead of looking into your own heart.

34:47

No, all this slander, evil thoughts, uh, murder, adultery, sexual morality, theft, false witness, slander, all that.

34:55

You didn't learn that from somebody else. No, you got your hand in the cookie jar when I told you not to get in the cookie jar, you know?

35:01

That was me, Trey, all the time when I was little. I thought you were born perfect. Oh my goodness.

35:07

Well, that's what the Phylagians say. It's basically a brand new Adam. And then from outside is what defiles a person.

35:14

And I believe Jesus said it's out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

35:20

So think about this when we say and do bad things, that's coming from a heart. Now check this out.

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When you confess Jesus as Lord with your mouth, that began somewhere. And it, it begins before what you actually say.

35:34

It actually begins with your heart. So that, that is the central issue in all of this.

35:40

Why we sin is because we're sinners. And when we confess Jesus as Lord and do all these wonderful, um, works, it all points back to the heart that is ultimately transformed.

35:51

And this is where Christians get this idea that it's all about the heart, right? Like we all speak the language.

35:57

We understand it, but do we really believe what we're saying? It truly is all about your heart, you know?

36:04

Um, and so I've had conversations with people saying, this is not just a New Testament reality.

36:09

Like as we're starting to go back to Genesis three, so in Genesis six, um, when

36:15

I was teaching the college group through this, I really got some eyes opened, uh, because I said, think about this verse,

36:21

I said, this is still true today, Genesis six, verse five. And the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth.

36:29

How bad or how great was it? And every intention of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil continually.

36:38

That never changed with the flood. Right. But wouldn't, wouldn't the Pelagians say, well, well,

36:43

Jeremiah says man there, it doesn't say kids. Well, then think about this.

36:49

Who all, who all was judged with the flood? Hmm. Right.

36:55

Look, think about this. Here's what I use a lot is Sodom and Gomorrah, right? When you're looking at a town, some people say 600 ,000, let's just say 50 ,000.

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You think there's not a kid in there under 12? Of 50 ,000 people? Right.

37:09

And, and God says, look, okay. 50 righteous. All right. I won't do it. It's not that God is changing his mind.

37:15

He just knows that there's no one righteous. No, not one. Right. 40. Sure. 20, 10.

37:21

Sure. Cause there's no one righteous. Even those there, like there's not one righteous person there. So he wiped it all out.

37:27

Just like the flood, you know? So let me, let me throw this at you because with the flood, right?

37:33

Not everyone did die. There was, there was eight souls that were saved. And we know some church

37:39

Christ. Um, they would say, well, um, it was Noah by his obedient faith.

37:46

That is why he was not judged. You know what I would say that that's wrong. It's not about the good things that Noah was choosing to do while God saved him because, and we can actually prove this from the text, uh,

37:59

Genesis, just a couple of letters. Um, so let's see, you know,

38:07

I was so disappointed, Trey. I didn't have my tangible Bible with me that has all, what are you doing on a phone?

38:14

It doesn't feel right. I can recall it from memory. So when you look at the text, it said, and God and the

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Lord found favor with Noah. That's the same word we get for grace.

38:28

So what this is telling us literally from the text, like you rightly point out, we don't want to isagee what we think is there.

38:34

We want to draw meaning from what is there. God found grace, right?

38:40

God is the one shining his grace upon Noah because Noah has the same sin nature as everyone else in the world, right?

38:49

And without that favor and grace, Noah would have been judged just like everyone else.

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And so in light of God's grace in his life, and we understand terms like regeneration and the

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Holy Spirit at work, even in Old Testament saints, we see that in light of God's grace and favor in Noah's life, then we see a changed heart.

39:09

We see a man that does works, does things of desiring to be obedient and does those in light of God's grace moving upon him.

39:18

And so it's verse eight, but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord, right?

39:24

Not on what he did. His thoughts were only evil continually, but it's God's grace there. This is

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New Testament reality that we are saved by grace through faith, right? And grace is sufficient.

39:35

And that, that word man, mankind, the wickedness of man, right?

39:42

That means mankind, human race, people. Oh, I see. You know, it's not talking about, yeah, not the children.

39:53

So you said you want to do something Genesis three, I want to point to something in Genesis five, after you go to Genesis three and point out to what you want to point out.

40:01

Sure. And honestly, it's just a rough sketch of kind of what happened, right? Because this is where original sin happened with, with mankind, because we actually know there's actually sin that happened before Genesis three.

40:14

And it's actually with Lucifer before Satan fell himself. That's the original, original sin.

40:20

But with Adam and Eve, I'm just, all I wanted to do is just a point in Genesis three, that this is what happened.

40:26

The sequence of events was the serpent, right? Came on to, to the scene. And we know that elsewhere in scripture, this is, this is the devil, that serpent of old, the great deceiver and tempter.

40:37

And so it's just interesting to me how this is what kick -started the whole fall of man.

40:42

And I don't think anything was taking God by surprise. He doesn't have plan B, right? Jesus was the lame slain before the foundation of the world.

40:50

So this was all a part of God's master sovereign will for this world to fall into sin so that he could redeem it, right?

40:59

So I want to, I just want to stop you and just hit that point again. Cause you know, so many people think that,

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I mean, you know, so many people think that the God created Adam and Eve and he was just hoping, hoping they would not mess up, you know?

41:14

And then all of a sudden he did like, Adam's like sin, Eve's sin. They were like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do?

41:20

And they're like, I don't know. And Jesus is like, you know what I mean? You want me to go down there and do that?

41:27

And he's like, man, yeah, I think that might work. Let's, let's do that plan, right? Plan B. Like, no, no, no, no.

41:32

Jesus was the lamb who was slain before the foundations of the earth. Here's the other thing where we just read in Romans that Adam was a type of Christ.

41:42

He was a type, right? Which means if he was a type, then the original had already exists.

41:51

If you have a type of something, that means there's an original somewhere else. And Adam and the garden was a type of the one that was going to come in a second,

42:01

Adam and do it all. Go ahead. So I love how you said it. There was a type, so there's already a pre -existence that needs to be established there.

42:07

And then back in Romans five, we also understand that that pre -existence has a future plan that Jesus is going to fulfill.

42:15

And so Adam is a type of the one who is to come. Right. And so this was important for my debate with the

42:23

Roman Catholic on Mary. Cause the question was, was she sinless or was she a sinner?

42:28

And so I try to make a very technical argument that you see the definite article, the, the one who is to come that's the one and only.

42:36

That's like when we see John 14, verse six, that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

42:42

And we understand that Jesus is the only way, the one and only. And so what

42:47

Adam or what, what Paul is saying in Romans five is there's only the one who is to come.

42:54

That's not corrupt from the core and unrighteous desiring sin. And so that would include

42:59

Mary. She would be under this federal headship of Adam and she would not be immaculately conceived bypassing

43:07

Adam's federal headship. So I know it's deviating a little bit, but when we look at those details, like you're getting it.

43:13

Well, I would say too about Mary, if I was perfect, if I was married and I was perfect and an angel came to me, I wouldn't be shocked.

43:19

I'd be, of course I would be the one carrying the son of God. I'm perfect. You know, I wouldn't be shocked about it, but anyway, go ahead.

43:25

No, that's a good point. I'm just saying that when you look at the language there, um, Paul is telling us there's only the one, the one and only who is to come that's going to, um, be a distinct federal head.

43:38

There's only two federal heads. You're either an Adam or you're in Christ. And if you're an Adam, then you are in unrighteousness and you desire sin and judgment is your outcome.

43:48

But a different distinct federal head, the one who is to come is not under the same federal head of Adam.

43:54

He does properly represent humanity, but under righteousness and salvation and justification.

44:00

All right. All right. So here's the one I want to point out. Maybe lay it on us. We've got about maybe five or six minutes left.

44:10

Perfect. This is pretty interesting here in Genesis five. Okay. Okay. Genesis five.

44:17

We just had the fall in three. I mean, we just turned the page. We're in five. We look to our right, the whole world is corrupt and we're about to flood this thing.

44:25

Right. But Genesis five says verse one, this is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

44:36

Male and female, he created them and he blessed them and he named them man when they were created.

44:43

Okay. So just kind of retells the story, you know? Okay. Let's just go to the next verse.

44:49

When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness after his image and named him

44:58

Seth. Whoa, something just happened. Like, so when

45:04

God made Adam and Eve, he says, look, I made them in my image and my likeness, you know what I'm saying? And so they're sinless.

45:12

But let me just go ahead and tell you when Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, in his image, which is still in the image of God because it's

45:20

Adam, but it's just a little different because Adam, his image and his likeness was in the fallen state at this time, and so this is why he's telling us that, look, things shifted a little bit here because when

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Adam had Seth here, and this is the lineage of our believers and things, but he said, look, he's in the likeness, in the image of Adam and the fallen man, a little different here.

45:44

Does that make sense? Oh yeah. No, it shows that shift, like you're saying. Um, yeah.

45:50

Um, it all goes back to kind of where we started about people raise the issue of fairness.

45:56

Look, Adam represented us, um, and we would have done the exact same thing.

46:01

And so, um, I argue that point. We would have done it.

46:07

We just would have done a lot quicker and we'd probably done it worse. We probably chopped the tree down and ate the tree or something, you know?

46:13

Yeah. And you're just stressing the point that we're not nearly as good as we think we are. No. And again, what

46:20

I'm also stressing the point that everyone would say that what God does is perfect. Well, then let me, let me, let me tell you something.

46:27

When he picked the man to represent all of humanity, he picked the perfect one and he sinned, right?

46:35

The point is, if he'd have picked me, I'd have done it worse and a lot quicker, you know? And so he picked the perfect representative to represent all of humanity.

46:46

Therefore, now, you know, you would have done the same thing. You're no greater, you know, better.

46:51

Don't read the Bible, like with that lens that, you know, if I was there, I would have believed, no, no, you wouldn't.

47:00

Sure. And I was thinking of objections to this, because, you know, through my interactions with church

47:05

Christ, they will go to Ezekiel 18 and just say, see, you don't, you don't carry, uh, the, the sins of your forefathers, right?

47:14

And we're like, that's not what that passage is, is not even relating to original sin and how

47:19

God has declared all of us sinners, right? Judicially, because what we understand is we get this sin, guilt, this change in nature from Adam, which we weren't there, but we also will be held accountable for the sin that we choose to do.

47:36

So all that Ezekiel 18 is talking about is when you commit a sin, you'll be held accountable for that.

47:43

When your forefather does a sin, he will be held accountable for that. So that's not even talking about the nature and the sin guilt that happened with our federal head.

47:54

Well, I mean, yeah, of course. Yeah. I want to make two points here and then we got to shut it down. But the sin of Achan, right?

48:01

What is kids do? I mean, at the end of the day, it comes down to, does the Bible contradict?

48:07

And if you're, if you're going to take that verse out of context, then you're going to have problems everywhere else in the scriptures where you're going to find, if you take that logic, you're going to find some contradictions.

48:17

Achan took some of my idols, hit them in his tent. And God said, bring them all out. Mamal, papal, kids, let's go get them out of here.

48:26

Dead, right? That's that really happened. And the kids didn't do it. Okay. So, and here's the other one

48:33

I just want to point out real quick in Matthew 24, when he's, when Jesus is pronouncing judgment on Jerusalem, the temple,

48:42

Israel here, he says in verse 29 of chapter 23, woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites, for you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments righteous, saying, if we had lived in the days of our fathers, right, that's

48:56

Pelagianism right here. If we were in the garden, we wouldn't have done that. If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them and shedding the blood of the prophets.

49:08

We wouldn't have done that, right? Thus you witness against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets, just by saying that, like you just proved my point.

49:19

Fill up then the measure of your fathers, you serpents, you brood of vipers. How are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

49:27

Therefore, I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from the town to town so that on you, on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth from the blood of righteous

49:45

Abel to the blood of Zachariah. They weren't alive when that happened, but now they're about to be held responsible.

49:53

They're going to be, what? That's not fair. They would have never done that. Oh no, you're about to have it.

50:00

Whom you murdered, it says, between the sanctuary and the altar.

50:05

Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. So that right there shows you that you might be taking

50:13

Ezekiel a little bit out of context and you don't want to have the attitude of the Pharisees, but this is what happens when we don't understand original sin.

50:21

But Jeremiah, I love you. We're going to do this more. I've got to go. I got to coach a baseball team in about 15 minutes.

50:28

So we're going to shut this down and I'll holler at you later. Thanks guys for listening to the Parish Reform Podcast.

50:34

You got the apologetic dog. You need to start tuning into that as well because he's a walking apologist, systematic theologian.