Open Phones with Pastors James and Jeff

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:23

Greetings welcome to the dividing line on a let's see. What is today's a Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Thursday I've got what day of the week it is when you come back from overseas

00:34

You have to be given at least two weeks to just sort of wander around like a zombie it feels much better that way but Anyways, I am joined in studio today by the ninja himself

00:45

Jeff Jeff Durbin. Hey, I I can say your name I wore a where was I?

00:51

Oh, it's Sunday night. I wore a hat that I purchased in South Africa and it says

00:57

Durbin on it, but First thing Jeff says when he sees me is you misspelled you spelled it wrong

01:05

And somehow I don't know I had not thought about that prior to really wearing it around everywhere

01:10

You know Actually been to Durbin, yeah, I actually it's it's a city of contrasts

01:18

And one of the major Suburbs is Phoenix Yeah, it's called Phoenix.

01:23

So I was preaching in Phoenix. It was rather interesting. That's amazing Yeah, yeah, but it's a very very different Phoenix than what we have here, but good to have you along We were just sitting around at I think it's about the only restaurant other than that one

01:38

Italian place that you and I have ever Actually, it's your favorite place. I I'm fine with it. I think it's delicious.

01:43

I think it's yeah, it's good It's not really expensive. It's called Cafe Rio. Yeah, I think you need to start actually getting sponsorship from Cafe Rio Did you see

01:53

I know I know you were very focused in and getting your receipt in that app so you can get your free Stuff. Yeah.

01:59

Yeah, so we were sitting around because we have a debate coming up We're not exactly sure where it's gonna be yet.

02:05

We thought we did but we're working on it We have a debate coming up in Salt Lake City.

02:11

And so yes, it is a it is it is wise to Take the time to consider how you are going to handle said debates

02:20

And I I yesterday morning out in the dark in the desert was listening to one of the two atheists were going to be debating wherever that ends up being located at and October 3rd is this

02:32

October 3rd? Yeah, we thought we knew where it was could be at but there's some we can't confirm that right now

02:37

Hopefully we'll very quickly but I was listening to one of the two atheists and It's going to be

02:47

I can guarantee you one thing. It will not be a boring debate. Yeah No, it will not be a boring debate.

02:53

It will be We can say the name. Can we say the names of them? Yeah, sure. Yeah, Dan Ellis, who's the president of Atheists Utah Yes.

03:05

Yes, and then Greg dr. Greg Clark, right? so it's a two -on -two and it's it's you and I versus two atheists and the

03:13

Debate is the triune God lives, right and does Dr.

03:19

Clark is a is a very intelligent man, but he also Identifies himself as a what was the term that they were using radical atheist very

03:32

Straightforward he has no respect For religious systems whatsoever.

03:37

He considers them to be absurd but he also Has a very fascinating area of work that he also described in this video that I Really enjoyed listening that and the funny thing was he was a completely different person when discussing that right then right he was

03:53

That was my phone. Sorry. I was just like you tell it was sound like me though. Yeah, it was you That's a little bit weird

04:01

Anyways, so it's going to be a fascinating encounter We're gonna be up there Of course for the general conference of the

04:08

LDS Church first weekend in April first weekend in October This would be the first conference.

04:13

I've been at since I don't know 2003 or 4.

04:20

I've actually really been that long. I really think it has been The King James only guy started showing up around then and if one of the funny thing was

04:28

Things is you were there in April. Mm -hmm And by the way, the phones are open if you'd like to call and talk to Jeff and I it's eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one you were up there in April and you said that there were

04:45

They wouldn't be called protesters, but there were people out there Who were identifying as homosexual

04:53

Mormons? Yes, they assign fascinating. Yes. Yeah, that was actually transgender

04:59

A Latter -day Saints out there. So men dressed like women and and So, you know some now if they were wearing the female temple garments, that would be cause the problem really

05:12

Yeah hadn't thought about that one. Had you know you hadn't rich we can hear rich through the wall.

05:19

He's Had not given that one a second thought But what we what

05:26

I found fascinating is how are they being received? Well, that was the thing that was shocking to me because when

05:32

I walked up I didn't know how this was gonna go down because they have Temple Square they have this little square for us to stand in right on the side so like we're out of the way and everything else and so I didn't know how

05:41

I was gonna go because I walk up to Where we're allowed to stand to hand stuff out and talk and I see him standing over there and I see him with their signs

05:47

I know they're there for it's LGBT stuff and you can just tell so I was actually very curious

05:52

How's this gonna go down and it was they were very very well received the entire time People were coming up going out of their way to stop and say oh my goodness

06:00

I love you, and you know, so I you know I'm so I'm so proud of your fight and your struggle and I'm with you and I can't wait till you guys are received and You know all those things they were praised.

06:09

They're appraised. There were some like real Orthodox Latter -day

06:15

Saints that were in conversation with me very pleasant conversations that would I would ask them like how do you feel about this?

06:21

like, you know, and they would Not good, but they kept quiet about it. Yeah, but the ones who were who are vocal were

06:27

They were definitely well received. Well, we were there the very first year that Anyone like that showed up at conference.

06:37

I don't remember which year it was. It was in late 1990s There weren't that many of them and of course back then

06:44

There weren't any free speech zones or anything else. You had the run well, that was before the

06:53

That other building opened up and so you had the run of all of Temple Square all the way around it so they were at the

07:00

South the South Gate and There it was frigid there was there was they were just Well, how long ago is that when

07:10

I start when they start showing us 20 years ago 20 years ago 20 years 20 Is all it took yeah 20 20 years.

07:17

Well, you look at society same thing. Yeah, right, right We were talking about over lunch just that the dramatic changes that we wouldn't if you even thought were possible even within professing

07:27

Christianity good solid communions and things like that. Well and Mormonism though leaves me completely befuddled because you have an

07:35

Absolutely gendered God in Mormonism. God is a male. Mm -hmm.

07:41

The priesthood is a male possession The power of God is the power of procreation and the priesthood that's you you

07:49

You want the patriarchy summer is looking for the patriarchy. We found it. It's in Salt Lake City. It's been there all along.

07:55

That's right Anywhere else than there and so I The I don't know how

08:06

Mormonism How is it collapsing so quickly on this subject because it is

08:11

I mean you look at what's going on in Utah and They're just going right along with the cultural flow

08:17

It's like there's there's just nothing there and there are Mormons you talk to some of them But they don't know what to say.

08:22

They don't know what to do, right? I've met with Mormons. I remember meet with this guy that I talked with a number of times and There are a lot of Mormons sitting there going what happened to my church.

08:33

Mm -hmm And the sad thing is they're not so much thinking that they were wrong before and hence to be looking for something else

08:41

It's just they're they're left with nothing to nothing to hold on to. Yeah, it's like yeah, like we were talking about before What's the next stage for Mormonism proper?

08:53

Yeah, Elsa Elsa at least SLC like the main You know, what's it gonna look like? Is there gonna be a figure that arises and sort of says hey, let's get back to our roots

09:02

This is apostasy and let's get back to what is really Joseph's Revelation and on and on what will

09:09

Mormonism look like in 25 years. Very very good question.

09:14

I don't know that it is rife For a charismatic leader. There's no question about that someone like that, especially with social media

09:22

Mm -hmm, and just a little bit of backing could have a huge following. I'm not suggesting this to anyone

09:29

Any false prophets unemployed right? Yeah, cuz we got some work for you now, it's in house LC No, actually,

09:34

I was years ago I was teaching classes for concerned Christians when I was still around and Mesa's a long time ago

09:41

Yeah And I remember I was there and Jim Jim Robertson was in there in his office and some guy kind of wandered off the street

09:49

Kind of poking around looking around and it's a real small little, you know place And so it's kind of you know, you know when someone walks in is poking around and so I'm now

09:57

Can I help you and he's like, yeah, you know I saw the sign and he thought we were associated with the

10:03

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints So he says yeah, I'm just you know, I'm wondering if you guys can help get me connected

10:09

I was like, well, what connected to who to what he said? Well, I'm you know, I'm really interested in real real

10:17

Mormonism Yeah, and I'm like, okay, and he I'm just like how many wives do you and that's what he was there for He was asking me if I knew of any if this was like a legitimate

10:29

Connecting point to get to the real Mormons He said because I'm really a big believer in the polygamy and I think where the church has gone today

10:36

It's gone way off the rails and I said well, you know have a seat. I want to talk to you about something. Oh, yeah You're kind of in the wrong place, but I'm glad you're here.

10:44

But that's what he was looking for was real Mormonism. Yeah. Yeah I remember I Can see the guy's face.

10:51

I remember his name was but what and what what story was

11:00

I about to tell well Okay.

11:06

No, I wasn't talking about polygamy. Sorry Let's keep that one on backup

11:11

Rich, I'm gonna hear that story now. No, well according to other people we met a lot of Polygamists in in Salt Lake City, actually, they may not have identified themselves as such at that particular point in time

11:25

But we but we did anyway, we were talking to a Mormon at the South Gate and he pointed up at the

11:34

Spire of the of the temple. Were you there for this one? and He pointed up the spire of the temple and he said

11:42

I guarantee you That within I think he said within 25 years

11:47

There will be a cross on the top of that steeple. Hmm, and I found that really really interesting

11:56

That he because he already saw the mainstreaming that was going on which

12:01

Gordon Hinkley started really and and and pushed but anyways Long story short.

12:07

We got people on hold Do it. We're what we do. We've got on deck. We've got we've got four four lines lined up We're gonna be up there so we've asked for people's prayers for the the debate

12:19

We're doing a dialogue the next night and then we have the outreach on on Saturday and then

12:26

I'm preaching Sunday school and Sunday morning service at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Magna Jason Wallace's church up there.

12:36

Yeah, it's not like so so Thursday debate Friday discussion with a Mormon But Friday and Saturday apology a church will be out there

12:44

Doing evangelism at Temple Square so y 'all gonna be going out Friday night just for the people

12:50

Friday and Saturday That's the plan. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right. So with that I suppose

12:56

I should put this in here So you're so used to wearing headphones. You just automatically throw them on. Yeah You know, it's not like it hurts my hair.

13:02

I was wondering when you're gonna put yours in everything answer phones by intuition It's it's not like he's been doing this for so long.

13:08

He doesn't even need the headphones He knows what you're he knows what you're gonna ask guys All it needs to do is see your number and notice that he's been doing this so long

13:18

Yes, you remember my younger days I remember your younger Okay, let's let's go to the phones you've got an opportunity to talk to me and I didn't even

13:31

You just you've just been here so many times. I didn't even bother to introduce you as As well,

13:37

I called you the ninja, right? Yeah, I mean, but you know people know I think people people know

13:42

I think if yeah because either it's either Alpha Omega connects him to apology or apology at Alpha Omega You and I both around the world

13:50

Place we go. I think if we went to the South Pole, there'd be somebody saying I learned about you from watching

13:56

Jeff Durbin's videos Or the other way around it. Yeah, I do actually take heat too for the things that you say and rich says

14:02

If rich says something, I'm like people are like, why did he say that? I'm like Go ask rich That's right, that's right

14:12

And I'm saw when you walked in today. Yeah, am I doing you're on the phone getting yelled at I'm answering

14:18

Your hands on the phones. Yeah people. Yeah, I tell people that I answer the phones and I do Yeah, so you call the number not just during the show, but right all the number

14:27

I answer and you can talk to rich Yeah, the rich Pierce you will talk to him. That's right. It happens. Yeah, which which of these is this cuz

14:33

I could I couldn't hear you Which would know which which is a little thingies over here to have to turn well,

14:39

I can I'll convey to you what rich is saying That'll be fun Yeah, he says he's buying dinner for the rest of the week every day.

14:49

I'm turning you up over here. Oh, okay You hear me now? Well, we'll find out here when you try to talk to Cuz don't touch it.

14:56

You'll break it. This is Tanner in Colorado. Hi Tanner Hi, dr. White. How are you? I'm doing pretty good

15:03

Good good, just a quick background you talked about, you know learning from each other and and and you know getting cross contamination of audiences

15:13

I was actually saved 11 12 years ago and started listening to your podcast and And now

15:19

I'm a pastor today Wow pastor of First Baptist Church of Leadville and and I Let's know a lot of that is due to your mystery.

15:25

So both of your guys ministry has really impacted me Leadville So I I rode through through downtown

15:35

Just a few weeks ago during what's called the Copper Triangle. You're familiar with it I'm not familiar with the

15:41

Copper Triangle itself, but I remember following your podcast when you were when you were up here in, Colorado I was wondering if you'd come through here.

15:47

So that's that's cool to hear. Yep. Yep. Good try dead again next year So if you're if you're driving around on a

15:53

Saturday morning, please don't run into any of all those cyclists riding through threading through town I know it's a pain, but It's it's fun.

16:00

So anyways, well good. That's great to hear Tanner. What can we do for you? So I have a couple of related questions.

16:07

Hopefully they go together My first my primary question has to do with the Holiness Code in general I started listening to I know you have a backlog of many sermons you did on the topic of the

16:17

Holiness Code and my training was such that if we could discover the reason for the law and We could discern that that reason no longer applies today

16:28

Then we had no need to follow that law. So for example sexual relations during a menstrual period

16:36

I Was taught that that had to do with blood blood has to do with Christ sacrifice

16:41

Christ fulfilled that and so while Hygienically you may want to observe that law We are under no Moral obligation to observe that law today and I was listening to your series on the

16:50

Holiness Code and you made a comment that Caused me to rethink this and you said that we need to be very careful about saying we only

16:58

Need to follow laws when we can discern their meaning or their purposes, right? And so I was hoping you would maybe speak to that a little bit and maybe help me to come to a better understanding about that Yeah, nothing like starting off with the easy stuff, right?

17:11

That's right. Yeah Yeah, you know obviously we live in a day when especially the the law as found in the the

17:26

Mosaic Code the Holiness Code now the Holiness Code is a specific section of that law and I went outside of Just Leviticus 18 19 and 20 to a number of texts and Deuteronomy other places in that 35 sermon series

17:41

Which I think is what you're referring to there that you've listened to Correct, but I started with a presupposition

17:49

That what we need to do with the law is to recognize the concept of its abiding validity and to understand that Its fulfillment in Christ is in regards to the penalty for the breaking of that law but that law continues to reveal to us what has always been pleasing to our

18:16

Creator and The challenge for us is to take certain laws that had to do with Israel's existence in the land and of course, we're talking 3 ,000 years ago, etc, etc and try to understand

18:31

None of us are are putting almost none of us are yoking oxen today, for example

18:38

And so the idea that most people have is anything about that becomes irrelevant

18:43

It better not be because you go to the New Testament and Paul starts talking about ministers in the

18:50

New Testament and What does he do? He pulls that very law up as being relevant to the continued support of ministers of the gospel so If you want to have an apostolic example

19:06

Then you need to follow the Apostles example and they didn't treat the law

19:11

The way and I was taught the same thing basically Tanner I was that's pretty much that you know

19:17

That's a very common perspective amongst evangelicals in regards to looking at God's law I just came to the conclusion from my own studies of how the

19:27

New Testament Utilizes the Old Testament law that that's not what the Apostles did and I needed to follow the apostolic example

19:35

Even if that makes me somewhat unpopular with with certain elements of people And so All that series what

19:43

I'm trying to do is is say this is the reason to tackle even some of the really tough texts

19:54

That I tackled in the course of that which most people look let's just be honest. They just won't touch him

20:00

Anymore, there's no reason to there's no purpose to Some people want to unhitch

20:05

The Old Testament completely from the New Testament, I'm looking over at Jeff. He has some experience to that particular subject

20:12

But even amongst people who recognize that the Andy Stanley perspective is too radical. There is still a what

20:19

I would call functional antinomianism that fundamentally sees

20:26

The the law as done away with rather than fulfilled and there's there's obviously something very different between Fulfillment in Christ Which can allow you to look at the law as a continued abiding?

20:40

Indicator what's pleasing to God and so on so forth and the idea that most people have and that is well once Christ comes then

20:48

That part of the Old Testament. You really don't have to worry about that stuff anymore You might want to read it once so you can say you've read through your

20:54

Bible all the way But it doesn't have really that kind of Meaningful application the problem is that once we get into a lot of the cultural issues that we're facing today

21:05

We are left without much of anything if we can't look back to what the what

21:10

Moses and the prophets Did say and laid it laid a foundation for Jeff you you spoke with Andy Stanley you you dealt with people that were disconnecting that stuff

21:20

You want to you want to add something there? Yeah, I can't say much better than that Perfect and I do highly recommend those sermons

21:28

There are those lectures through the Holiness Code And in the issue with like Stanley this came up and it's it's really

21:35

I think powerful I think Briley did a good job at putting that together in terms of when

21:41

I was on Unbelievable talking with Andy Stanley about unhitching the Old Testament. He started off where he needed to start and that was the issue of foundations and authority

21:52

Ultimate authority is a human reason Where where's the where's the stopping point?

21:57

Where do I actually say it could hear and not anything beyond that? This is the this is the yes and amen and ultimate and so that at first was about apologetic methodology

22:06

And that's it's interesting though, because it's not just about apologetic methodology. This really is a connected point to sola scriptura ultimately and Where is the ultimate authority?

22:16

Is it in the church? Is it is it is it in? Where is it a human reason?

22:22

What's what's the stopping point? So we did that with Stanley and then it led into the discussion of unhitching the Old Testament and it got right down to the issue of authority again, and we did talk about that the fact that in the

22:34

New Testament documents you have the the Apostles referring back to Not just animal husbandry laws, but judicial law in terms of case law example

22:46

They'll even appeal. I mean, it's it's done numerous times in a New Testament The issue of two to three witnesses. Well that has to do with the judiciary

22:52

That has to do with like receiving accusations and punishing somebody you can't do it on the basis of one witness

22:57

But multiple witnesses two to three it's not just writing to people inside the nation of Israel this time either

23:03

No, I'm a Gentile churches so on so forth. That's right So Jesus appeals to this throughout his ministry two to three witnesses.

23:08

He appeals to it in the issue of church discipline He it's appealed to throughout the New Testament documents by the

23:14

Apostle Paul You even have I brought this up because I thought it was interesting in terms of the principle that God lays down because no one's saying you take the law of God and slap it on society like we're saying how do

23:27

You actually approach the law of God in a way that actually is consistent with the revelation of God Old and New Testament But the

23:33

Apostle Paul even while he's at trial and he's receiving accusations. He's something interesting

23:39

I I've missed it for a long time But he says something interesting there too in terms of what his grounding is even for penalties in his own mind as an

23:47

Apostle He says when he's being accused if I've done anything worthy of death I don't object to dying like if there's something so there is something that's worthy according to his own mind as an

23:57

Apostle There's something that's worthy of a death penalty in the judiciary And he says if I've done anything worthy of death,

24:03

I don't object to dying Like if I if I if it's owed to me, I'll take it that's post cross Post resurrection post ascension.

24:10

So you have Judicial law in terms of accusations. You've got animal husbandry laws and you even have the death penalty

24:16

Reference in terms of principle. Well, where's all that coming from? It's not just sort of suspended in midair It's not the opinion of the

24:22

Apostles. They're grounding it somewhere and so I think that's important but if somebody says to me like well What about all this stuff at the

24:28

Holiness Code and like the different fibers and you've got animals I'm like, well, that's the reason why

24:34

I say I don't I I can eat bacon today Because it was you said so that's the most important.

24:41

Well exactly because it's actually referenced because we're told yes It's it's not unclean and then you also have the explicit statements in Scripture from a pause from an

24:49

Apostle that says This this dividing wall this Holiness Code these I call them training wheels

24:55

In terms of sanctification and holiness for the people of Israel. It's told to us.

25:01

This is now passed away It served its purpose. It was doing something and now in Christ It's gone and done now

25:07

Jew and Gentile are together in one body These things aren't necessary anymore because there's a new covenant and the people of God together in one body

25:14

That's why this is shaved off. Not that it was irrelevant or meaningless it meant something and I like that terminology training wheels and and the the real area where there is still a lot of Argumentation and dispute is to understand exactly where those

25:33

Dividing lines are in regards to what? What specifically marked the people of Israel?

25:42

And what didn't right? So so if we have the new covenants then

25:49

What is where is where is that at and the tendency has been? To get rid of a lot of stuff and in the process though For example in Leviticus 19

26:01

You know love your neighbor as yourself is smack dab in the middle of all that other stuff. That's right and so we

26:07

I just don't see that there has there has always been a lot of real careful analysis and Consideration of what what could be the abiding?

26:19

Moral principles that are found in things that are frequently just dismissed as being I was just the Jews That was just that was just then

26:27

And so Careful people in this area have admitted. There's still a lot of work to be done

26:33

Sure The problem is there's not all that many people doing work in the area because of the presupposition that it's all done away

26:41

You know, it's just that's this Old Testament. You don't have to worry about that. Well, I just want to say this this to that Issue is we better be glad that the law of God Even down to some of these case law examples of like property boundary markers parapets around the roofs of houses

27:02

In terms of two to three witnesses we better be so glad that that wasn't glanced over or neglected a couple hundred years ago because the basis of the fourth and fifth

27:11

Amendment is God's judicial law. I mean it was referenced explicitly by those Presbyterians and Baptists and Anglicans in America when they were talking about building communities and justice

27:22

They were always referencing God's judicial standards in terms of well, here's a general equity. That's how

27:28

God feels about that That's how we should feel about it And like I said, I think you know when we talk about today and the benefits that we have today

27:34

That are hanging on by a thread in terms of justice in our society. We look at like the fourth and fifth amendments

27:41

That's built upon Christian worldview. That's not secular humanism that gives you the the issue of like warrantless searches and seizures

27:47

You know being illegal. I mean that comes from a particular point in history Christians had been abused in history and when they start pointing to the law of God and God's standards of justice

27:58

They bring Reformation and transformation in their communities and societies. So they look at God's law and they say

28:04

We've got these people just coming into our houses and just taking us away without warrants And we're having to actually self incriminate in court

28:12

And that's that doesn't fit what God says his law actually says that you've got to have Witnesses before I can have a charge brought against me

28:18

So you can't come ransacking my house and taking my stuff and go poking around for to find, you know that I'm guilty

28:25

God says you can't do that. You've got to have evidence and witness So there there you have in the

28:30

American system the blessings of God's judicial law Today, and that's the issue again of like I don't have to self incriminate.

28:37

Where's that come from atheism? No, that comes from a Christian worldview You've got to have witnesses and independent lines of evidence to accuse me for me to actually be punished for anything and you can't come poking around in my house looking for Looking for a failure on my part or guilt on my part.

28:53

You've got to have evidence before you can do such a thing Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot there Tanner There's there

29:02

There's a spectrum of material out there that is very very very wide Very very very wide and I'm not saying that everybody who

29:12

Will have a high view of God's law is necessarily balanced in all their applications and all their understandings

29:19

There has to be a lot of discernment on your part But don't be afraid to read widely

29:26

Is is what I'm saying and look for consistency. I think that's that's the best way to go

29:32

Very good, that's that's very helpful. Do you mind if I tag on a follow -up that's loosely related?

29:38

That's what that's what related? Loosely related. Well, there are three other people online, but make it quick Okay, I I was reading through Mark chapter 2 23 to 28.

29:50

That's where Jesus violates the Sabbath and he essentially appeals to David and David utilizing

29:56

You know eating the bread when he wasn't allowed in him and his You know his mighty men

30:02

But my question is is the way I've heard that described is something I'll call law priority or graded absolutism

30:08

Where these are still absolute commandments of God These are still absolute commands that he gives us but they are graded within and amongst themselves

30:16

So we can still hold to an absolute moral standard while by the same token Recognizing that some absolute moral standards hold higher authority than others

30:25

But part of the reason I'm bringing both of these questions up is I'm introducing to our Bible study tonight the topic of homosexuality

30:31

We've been talking through Christian ethics and I want to discuss all this, you know They dismissed Leviticus 18 to 20 pretty much

30:38

They throw it all out the window because of a few verses and I just want to develop a consistent hermeneutic on this topic so that I can hold to a good biblical standard

30:47

That is able to kind of I guess Answer the skeptics and the critics while also maintaining the integrity of the word

30:55

So that's that's I guess my question is on that law priority graded absolutism. Yeah. Well, you know that that that particular subject

31:05

I Dealt with a great deal in in that sermon series because that was that was the whole point

31:11

I mean, I think it was the very first time in the history of any Reformed Baptist Church especially

31:16

PRBC that we had played over the sound system a audio from a

31:23

TV show because I played the President going after the

31:30

What was her name? Oh and that TV series TV series. Yeah West Wing Yeah, I played the West Wing clip and we actually played that over the speakers.

31:38

Oh, yeah now that I trust me That was an absolutely unique event in the context of that church.

31:44

Yeah, and so It was specifically why I started at that point was to say

31:51

This is this is the kind of abuse and misuse of this material that is now rampant in our society

31:56

We need as we need to know how to respond to yes and so that was really what

32:02

I was attempting to do there and as far as You know, the the only thing

32:08

I would say there clearly are You know moral and ethical questions where you're dealing with the issue of What seemed to be in our experience competing commandments?

32:21

And and how we prioritize things all of that is quite true The one thing

32:26

I'd say about Mark chapter 2 though Is you have to keep in mind who's speaking there verse verse 28?

32:33

so the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath is central to Understanding what

32:41

Jesus is claiming who he's claiming to be and his interpretive power at that particular point in time

32:47

Which the Jews would be rejecting. So this is one of the very first times when Jesus is really making that kind of Incredibly elevated claim for himself.

32:56

And so that has to be kept into you know brought into consideration as well as to who it is that was picking the grain and who he is and he's

33:05

Lord of the Sabbath and and You know that that's gonna end up paralleling John chapter 5 when he says my father's working and I'm My father's working till now and I am working and they pick up stones to stone him

33:16

Why because they understand that he's making a claim to deity at that at that particular point. So that's important in that as well

33:22

But yeah, I I think obviously the command to save life not to kill Is is in a is in a sense a higher commandment than to not wear mixed fibers

33:36

Right one is one is marking the people of God off from people around them The other is an abiding commandment that everyone is held accountable to at all times

33:47

So that's that's one of those those those issues but hey, everybody else on the phone's gonna get starting getting starting to look up every

33:54

Tanner in Colorado and putting out Putting out a hit on you. So well, we got to move on.

34:00

Thanks Thank you so much. You've both been immensely helpful. Take care. God bless. Yeah, Leadville.

34:06

That's it is a famous hundred -mile mountain bike race in Leadville really and and then it's it's on it's on It was on the way back toward Vale That's a tough ride.

34:18

That's a that's high altitude. That's tough ride hundred miles It was though that it was only It was 78

34:25

But you're at altitude so it's it's challenging. All right, let's go down to Texas and talk to is it

34:34

Devonta? Devontae brother Devonte. All right How are y 'all today?

34:40

We're doing good You know, I had I was I felt a bit guilty about having two questions and then

34:46

I had Turner I heard Tanner unload all that Okay So before I ask my two questions,

34:56

I'm not about to do a soapbox thing. I just want to say brother Jeff. Thank you For the sermon you had on God's law when

35:03

I tell you that was like a glacier of godly water on my tongue It was amazing.

35:09

Oh, I just want to say that. Oh, praise God. Thank you very much. Thank you for the blessing. So yes I have two questions.

35:15

One of them is related to take Church history. The other is textual criticism. Um, I was watching your debate.

35:22

Dr. White with Jerry Matta takes on Sola scriptura actually went and bought the

35:29

Webster and King book because of that me and a brother about to read it good, but I was watching the debate I was watching the debate and there's a part where you say that Talking about this first or second

35:39

Thessalonians that Catholics always bring up about whole faster traditions Yep, and you said that Tertullian actually referenced that I believe you said to Julian There was

35:49

Gnostics in his day that claimed to have this private oral revelation that was unique to them

35:55

Where does Tertullian say that? Well, you'd have to you'd have to send a note in for me to I mean,

36:03

I don't keep that kind of Reference on the top of my head and that debate was in that debate was in 1996

36:13

So that was 22 years ago So, yeah, no,

36:19

I Yeah, but but my my recollection though Was that I thought that had to do with Second Timothy 2 and Paul passing on to trusted people what

36:43

What he was teaching to Timothy I mean, that's my recollection, but I probably have those debate notes buried somewhere

36:52

But I'd have to I'd have to look it up to have a specific reference to to what Tertullian said

36:58

But I think if you looked up if you have a index for Tertullian's writings in the

37:05

Schaff edition if you look up either second Thessalonians 215 or I think it's

37:14

Second Timothy 2 2. Yeah, either one of those two references is probably gonna pull it up because that it was one of those two texts

37:24

Okay. Okay. Thank you. It's okay. It was 20 plus years ago. It was a while back

37:29

How old are you Devante? I am 25. Okay, and do you remember things real clearly from 22 years ago?

37:39

Not unless my mother's there Okay, there you go That's the only time

37:45

I remember them Okay, yes second question, okay, um

37:53

You know, I have to apologize to Rich because I said I was I want to ask about textual criticism

37:58

And now that we're talking I have to ask you something else. Oh, I like textual criticism. So, you know,

38:04

I do too I I love it, but I can look up an article by dr. Mike Kruger or something. Um, I Recently came up I won't say

38:12

I recently started to actually see the biblical support for presuppositional apologetics and like watching the how to answer the full with Titan Bruton Kate and I'm just I'm just a little bit background so you can understand before I was like heavy at evidential.

38:31

It's like I think evidentialism is great. If people weren't born dead in sin Then that would be the way to go

38:39

But if they weren't born and dead and sinned you wouldn't be needing apologetics anyway, so that's really worthy.

38:45

Yeah, you know What are have you ever actually heard any? good arguments against presuppositionalism because it all seems to boil down to People think that other people are genuinely seeking

38:59

God and all they need is evidence But the Bible doesn't say that so I don't know how you would how somebody would biblically support

39:06

Evidentialism like have you have you ever heard anybody make a case for that? Oh, yeah,

39:11

I mean but But it all boils down to one of two things and feel free to add to this

39:19

Jeff, but it all boils down in my experience to either a rather gross misrepresentation of what

39:28

Presuppositionalism is actually saying and so what you'll what you'll very often get are people saying well

39:34

You're saying that you should never mention Evidences you're saying that you should just simply argue in a tight irrational circle all the rest of stuff

39:42

I I Rarely even amongst solid people.

39:48

I rarely hear an accurate Representation of what the application of presuppositional apologetics would look like hopefully

39:57

Jeff and I will provide an example of that in a couple of weeks in in Utah, but we've done that in past debates as well and people can take a look at that or What it ends up boiling down to?

40:11

Is a fundamental difference on the subject of anthropology that is what is man?

40:17

What is man status? Is man dead in sin is man suppressing the knowledge of God?

40:23

What does man do when truth is presented to him and that ends up? normally coming from either a deficient theology on the part of somebody else or very very often it is a matter of having

40:37

Philosophical presuppositions that people are committed to That require them to hold a particular view of man that is not biblically derived so that they can continue to utilize that particular set of philosophical presuppositions they will frequently hide that and Then they'll use those philosophical presuppositions.

40:58

They'll grab a verse here a verse there But you're not going to get consistent exegesis

41:04

Out of out of these individuals, but there are very intelligent individuals who have made argumentation against presuppositionalism

41:11

And that that's a good thing. It helps us to sharpen what it is. We're saying we're not questioning anyone's

41:18

Intelligence or things like that. It's the consistency of one's worldview theology and Apologetic methodology and how they are related to one another

41:28

I have said for decades That one's apologetic methodology has to flow out of one's theology

41:35

And I've pointed out a lot of folks some really big names that I think you can very fairly say their theology flows from their apologetic methodology from their philosophical pre

41:50

Precommitments and of course, there's a bunch of guys out there a bunch of bunch of young guys, especially

41:55

Everything you do is philosophy as soon as you open your mouth. You're doing philosophy. So philosophy is before everything

42:01

So that would mean that before God could speak to Adam the philosophers had to lay out their systems.

42:08

No Yeah, that's not how it worked. And again, that's that just shows the difference of where where people are coming from If God could hold

42:17

Adam accountable as he did before the first philosopher ever philosophized

42:23

Then that means God's revelation is prior to any of the ordering of men's thoughts

42:31

Or even doing that in a godly way. There is a godly way to be a philosopher, but Fundamentally that requires a submission to the ultimate authority of God's revelation first and foremost for anything else

42:46

Yes, let's see here what to add to that. So I think the explanatory power of Of Presuppositionalism is bound to reform theology in terms of grounding and someone says well see then that means it's just this isolated thing over here

43:01

That has to do with reform theology. You know, what I mean is biblical theology Yeah, what I mean is the biblical world entirety

43:06

So when we talk about the fallen nature of man our reasoning capabilities where humanity is at Okay, grant this

43:15

Every Christian worth their salt is gonna say we are born dead in our sins and trespasses and we're born sinners

43:21

Okay, that's what we're supposed to be doing if we're reading Romans chapter 5 Layton flowers is spinning in an office chair somewhere right now getting wrapped up in his head.

43:31

Well, I said worth their salt so So what I mean by that is is we're talking about biblical theology.

43:38

We're talking about where we're at We are a fallen we are dead in our sins and trespasses We are sons and daughters of Adam and Eve if you grant that biblical premise

43:45

Then that means that something is wrong with humanity men and women So in the philosophical discussion and debate we have to grant that biblically speaking if we actually are grounded in a

43:54

Christian worldview We look across the landscape and we have to say that God says something is true about this man that I'm talking to this woman

44:01

That I'm talking to and what he says is that there is no God seeker what he says is that we are dead in our sins and trespasses and that we are by nature children of wrath and so I love how he said that by the way, he said

44:15

Evidentialism sounds great. If we weren't dead in our sins, that should be the title of a book, right?

44:21

Evidentialism would be great if we weren't dead in our sins and trespasses So it is it is bound to reform theology in terms of its explanatory power but if you think if you and here's what

44:34

I mean if you move to The differences and distinctions between say so the presuppositional or transcendental methodology

44:42

We're just talking about a reformed apologetic ultimately is how I would say And you look at someone like say

44:48

William Lane Craig who is a brilliant man Very intelligent and has some amazing arguments in terms of explaining historical evidences and all the rest

44:56

Look at him in his discussion. You have a Lawrence Krauss. I find what he said to be

45:03

Embarrassing to the Christian faith and the Christian The strength of the Christian apologetic when he's talking to Krauss and Krauss says to him.

45:10

Are you certain God exists and Craig says no You know

45:15

People can say you got to be fair to Craig. He's just talking about from a philosophical perspective Let me listen if your apologetic methodology puts you to a place where you will say

45:25

I am NOT certain that God exists Then you're not arguing from the same Position philosophically that the

45:31

Apostle is or Jesus is you think Jesus is walking around and someone says Jesus Are you sure? Are you certain you're the

45:37

Messiah? He's like well I'm fairly certain or if you have things are looking good

45:42

Yeah, if you ask the Apostle Paul you say, you know Romans chapter one He says that we are without an apologetic where the without a defense.

45:50

We have no defense before God That's a very different philosophical perspective than the modern

45:59

They're not all the same but classical apologist or evidentialist that says well, we're fairly certain or it's you know, it's more like 7525 like we're mostly there

46:07

So I think that the classical or evidential methodology grants far too much ground to the unbeliever that they should not have

46:15

One of the things that was so powerful to me early on as I was studying apologetics and learning from dr.

46:21

Bonson and listening to Dr. Bonson debate dr. Sproul on this issue One of the things that was was so encouraging to me.

46:29

It was to see the strength of the biblical philosophical perspective and that is to say that you have from a

46:37

Christian perspective a grounding the preconditions necessary for the discussion of philosophy and reason and logic all the different orders

46:47

We're trying to get to in terms of putting all this out and classifying it and providing a grounding for it from a

46:52

Christian perspective you got it all because you have Jesus because you have God's Word and his revelation as a starting point and What's amazing to me in this in this

47:01

I mean, it's very humbly to my brothers who are classical or evidentialist Very very very humbly to them What's amazing to me is is that a lot of times as as people will talk about classical apologetics and history and those sorts of things

47:15

They'll talk about like this was just in the atmosphere like this is how Christians Reasoned and I think that there's a reason for that and that's that the

47:22

Christian worldview was just assumed by everybody around like it like if we're trying to find out the grounding for reason and we're trying to get to evidences for the

47:31

Christian faith that are coherent and meaningful and the text of God's Word and God's existence and we're all in a room with A bunch of Christians or people that essentially assume the

47:38

Christian worldview Evidentialism makes sense because Christians need evidence To prove things but here's my point if you have a

47:46

Christian worldview you demand evidence Why because you love the truth because I want to know what's true like God even says in his law

47:54

We read this a second ago Don't believe something on the basis of one witness. You're gonna have multiple lines of evidence

48:00

That's built into the Christian worldview. But here's the point. That's how Christians think because they have God's revelation

48:06

But here's the question Why is the unbeliever asking for that like from a Christian perspective in our philosophy all of this makes sense

48:13

But that's because you have God's Word as the starting point So what when I want to approach the issue of the defense of the existence of God I don't want to grant any ground to the atheist that he's not supposed to have like I know what he says

48:27

I've read their books. I listened to hours of their lectures And what I say is they talk to me is like look if I really want to be honest and accept your position

48:36

Like I've really thought about this. I've really tried to put myself in the mind of the atheist How was he thinking day -to -day when he faces suffering and trials and difficulties all of its meaningless

48:49

There's no meaning to it all when you see something on the news of some tragedy There's no meaning to that if because here's the thing

48:56

I think if I was an atheist I would be a really good atheist and I would be nasty

49:01

Because I would believe it all and try to be consistent with it. I would try to say there is no meaning There is no purpose.

49:07

There is no good. There is no evil. All of this is just stuff happening My point is is

49:12

Christians have the strength of God's revelation that grants to us reason logic Ethics science all the rest

49:19

Why are we gonna grant that to the unbeliever when they're at war with God? It shouldn't have it to begin with right, right

49:26

Hey, you got you got your two questions and got a lot of commentary to didn't you? Thank you.

49:32

I just I Really started to feel convicted about being a evidentialist because I remember

49:38

I was watching one of your reviews of Michael Kona And you were talking about like this Incrementalism right and apologetics.

49:45

I was like, he is absolutely right. Like I have been taught before I repented I would talk with people and I would tell them that was art that bothered you

49:53

Jesus rose from the dead Right, and then I started coming into a form theology. I was like goodness gracious.

50:00

That was not I remember. Dr White said it won't be odd for you to trust Jesus for salvation

50:05

But you don't trust his view of Scripture And I don't think you've ever argued with somebody and saying the Old Testament bothers you but I'm about the rise from the dead.

50:12

That's old Man Devante, thank you very very much for your call today.

50:22

I hope that was useful. What is it? Was it rich as I just wanted to key on he brought up Mike like Kona and what

50:27

Jeff was just saying Made me think exactly of that show that you did last week. We're this this whole 80 20 thing if you look

50:36

I think he's up to 85. Let's give him The point would be that if you look at how the writers of the

50:43

New Testament present their case It is not with any skepticism

50:48

It is 100 % faith They believe what they're writing as they present it with 100 % conviction we have

50:59

I Guess maybe you could look at Peter being having to be confronted by Paul But the only quote -unquote doubter we have

51:08

Presented in the entire New Testament is a guy named Thomas Yeah, he he came around Hey Devante, thanks for your phone call.

51:18

We're gonna get to the other guys real quick here And we'll try to be a little faster in our responses.

51:24

Let's talk to Joshua hi, Joshua Hi, dr. White and mr.

51:29

Jeff. How you guys doing? Hey Great. I Really quick question.

51:35

I used to be a Christian camp counselor and I still try to keep up with some of the guys I used to teach I've seen one guy lately

51:42

Who's I'm posting a lot of stuff on his social media about Islam a lot of links to the Dean show

51:47

Yeah, I'm just wondering what would be your first would be the best way to sort of reach out to him? What would be your starting?

51:55

Apologetic because as much as I wish you would I don't think he's gonna watch all your debates you recommend them well, if he's

52:01

If he's willing to watch the Dean show, he should be willing to watch my stuff Obviously, I've I've done a number of programs over the years responding to people on the

52:12

Dean show So if you look up D E and in the search engine search box at the bottom of our current page

52:20

Which will not be at the bottom of our current page in its future iteration you'll pull up a number of references to where I've responded to people on the program, but you know, that's

52:33

What the best way to go there, I mean if this is an individual has any kind of background whatsoever is you you need to Really challenge them to think through what they what they think they have been taught

52:48

So that they can see that the assertions of Islam Very often are based upon a misunderstanding of what we've been taught

52:57

I mean, I I haven't watched every edition of the Dean show, but I've watched enough of them to know that the level of inaccuracy of representation of Christian belief is extremely high and Someone has to be challenged to say why would that be what why can't you actually?

53:16

respond to real Christianity Why do you have to deal with something else now?

53:23

Part of the reason for that is the author of the Quran didn't know real Christianity. So they come by it, honestly but then there are other people on that program that as quote -unquote former

53:35

Christians just simply Massacre, what is their presenting? So make sure he has

53:41

You know a challenge him to to read Meaningful Material on both sides because I honestly believe if you compare the

53:50

Forgotten Trinity to the best that the Dean show has to offer on that subject, there's not going to be much of a much of a competition there and You know if he's if he's not if he's willing to listen to the

54:03

Dean show, but not willing to listen to Meaningful debates done in mosques Then he's already made up his mind and there's not much you can do about that But you know,

54:13

I direct him to the debates that are done in mosques with Muslims that's about as fair as you're gonna get and if Christianity can stand in that mosque and and Go toe -to -toe

54:27

Then he has to ask himself the question. Why don't I see this happening on the Dean show? Why is Dean show only give one side of this and never ever ever ever the other side at all though?

54:36

I'd be more than happy to provide it Why is that so? Those are just some of the basic things

54:45

Thank you, dr. White. Like I said, I only have the one questions. Let you go. Okay, if you have any quick words of Advice for a first -year

54:53

Greek student. I'd take those two Well, it's best if you're not taking

54:59

Other languages at the same time if you've already started this next piece is irrelevant But if you haven't then learning

55:06

English before learning Greek really helps Most of the students that I had that struggled in first -year

55:13

Greek were struggling with Greek. I'm sorry We're struggling with grammatical concepts not with Greek because they didn't know their own language well enough utilize the

55:24

Resources are available. There are lots of resources available on your phone today for keeping up with the vocabulary

55:30

If you do not keep up with the vocabulary the rest will turn into mud in your head If you keep up with the vocabulary then you have more brainpower to focus upon the specific

55:40

Concepts that you're picking up as you're being as you're being taught it and then buy yourself a Greek New Testament And when you go to church when they're reading from the

55:48

New Testament, try to try to follow along expose yourself to the language Don't let don't let a day go by where you're not exposing yourself to it.

55:56

It'll help it to seep in over time. Okay? Thank you, dr. White. All right.

56:02

God bless. Bye. Bye All right, and let's get to John Hi, John Hey, dr.

56:11

White brother. Joe. Hello. Happy to be on the phone with you guys Good to be with you.

56:17

I just I'm standing by a truck going by. All right, he's gone My mom who

56:24

I do not live with but she calls me just about every night to throw punches at me Is a very hardcore

56:31

Charismatic we were raised in an assemblies of God Church And so I have to deal with that just about nightly her calls

56:42

The latest one that I was fine when she was attacking Steven Anderson and whatever

56:47

I'd say, yeah, he's crazy I don't know what I don't know yet yet. But last night she called me and asked about uh, she said it was apology a church

56:55

Oh, that's what she called it. And as soon as she called it a church I realized Who she had found now, do you think do you think do you think maybe you've called the right place right now?

57:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely Absolutely Why not

57:14

I'm just I'm just simply saying you have half the eldership of apology a church That's right. We can answer all the questions

57:20

I think think we're good. We can get Luke and Zach on the phone if we need to make it the whole group

57:25

So yeah, we're good. All right. I already know what they'll say though Good good. You already have their their knowledge imparted to you so you can answer for them.

57:33

Okay I'm fine with dealing with her and actually the rest of my close family are the same a

57:42

While back we hold a service here Sunday where we meet I'm forced to attend and listen

57:50

They asked me to lead a Wednesday night service here I'm in no shape to do that, but I did it.

57:57

Anyway, I preached on the Trinity Which I know none of them understand Because of their upbringing they've never really had to deal with that And somewhere along there

58:08

I gave away somehow My reformed theology. I don't know where they caught on to it at what point in the sermon.

58:16

I gave it away, but I did Ever since then I've been dealing with phone calls last night.

58:23

She called me. She listened to Brother Jeff's a recent sermon

58:28

Every sermon that you post about but the tribulation you cover pretty much the same ground

58:36

And you make perfect sense to me Every time mainly Matthew 24.

58:41

I love reading that is in the days of Noah. It's clearly I'm I won't get into it, but it's amazing how they've how they've changed that to be good

58:52

If you know what I'm talking about, yes, yes, yeah, it's amazing to me that they've changed that to be taken away as a good thing

59:00

Anyway, she brought up first Corinthians 1310. I am a cessationist myself

59:07

She knows that that was probably the biggest blow to her because she is holding on to traditions that Were ingrained in us and her as a child and in me as a child from our grandparents my grandparents

59:21

But she brought up 1st Corinthians 1310 obviously that was when that is which is perfect comes

59:26

I Don't know about heart in every translation, but right essentially she brings that up to say

59:35

That I'm wrong It's basically a throw a shouting match That I'm wrong about everything that I've said recently

59:44

I try not to talk about it much with her but basically I've tried to explain what

59:50

Biblical Apostleship is what how we don't have them today how it's impossible how

59:57

Prophecy what that means how that can't that doesn't happen today? And she loves Perry Stone and she loves

01:00:02

Jonathan Cahn and when I talk about this I'm basically crapping on her idols.

01:00:08

I mean, so yeah, but it's hard. Yeah, what well Just a couple things

01:00:14

John So The main thing she didn't like about apologia was the eschatology and Jeff's preaching from Matthew 24, or was there something more?

01:00:26

She watched maybe Maybe 10 minutes of a sermon he put up Either yesterday or okay, that's that's that's that's not even the introduction for Jeff I know

01:00:39

I know but now I'm into 0 .2 by then, but but no not

01:00:48

I'm not saying she watched the first 10 minutes. I think she watched overall Maybe 10 she watched enough to hear him call it to hear him say

01:00:56

Dr. White so then she knew dr. White she called me last night. I've mentioned your name

01:01:03

So she called me last night. Is this the dr. White that you're listening to? The one that he was talking about they're all connected it's a conspiracy

01:01:21

But that's specific I mean I've talked about you guys with with other people in the family My uncle is a little bit more open -minded.

01:01:27

I'm trying To reach him and when I say I'm trying to reach him it feels Arrogant to me to say that but I feel like I'm right and they're wrong

01:01:37

And I don't really know how else to I understand to put that well look on family family situations can be

01:01:46

It This whole area is highly emotional And then when you put it into the context of family and when you put into the context of you were once Here and now you're over there

01:01:59

There is automatically a self -defense mechanism that kicks in because what the person's hearing you saying is

01:02:07

They are wrong. You are right and so they bring up all the family stuff and everything else and it

01:02:13

It can be extremely difficult It can be so complicated that in many times

01:02:20

I've seen people outside the family be able to get much more distance as far as being able to get somewhere then inter familial conversations, unfortunately, but In light of that then

01:02:36

I would My suggestion would always be that let's use let's use

01:02:43

I'm not sure which sermon it was but Just thinking about Sunday's sermon with with Jeff he got to the end of the of the sermon and he's like, okay, so What does this all mean?

01:02:57

He was he had been just talking about the four horsemen of the apocalypse and so on and so forth Do we all just take this information and leave here and go?

01:03:04

Oh, that's cool You know now I can I can throw this at some

01:03:09

Tim LaHaye fan or something like that No, he's talking about God's promises and he's talking about God's faithfulness and and while the main arguments through this whole sermon series

01:03:20

Sorry to be summarizing this for you. I'm sitting out there. I'm making sure it's okay good I'm doing

01:03:27

I'm doing all right. It's working. Okay. Yeah, he's listening. Oh, no I thought he was sleeping.

01:03:32

Oh, no, he's actually listening. Oh, it's not fair that I have to preach sermons to dr white at church like It's it's it's weird like you understand what kind of pressure that is to have to teach

01:03:44

For don't sit down front so you can see I'm very clearly you're putting together sermons and you're like, okay

01:03:49

And this doesn't teach the church and this person knows nothing about the Bible or eschatology Okay, but dr. White's there But Handling it really well, but you don't want to go over anybody said that's right

01:04:02

That's right So the point the point is he made that one of the points he's made throughout the the series has been doing a math 24 this is important stuff because this demonstrates that Jesus was a true prophet

01:04:14

He was not a false prophet that the arguments that have been constantly used that Jesus got it wrong

01:04:19

I just simply missed the historical reality and so Go toward the end of the sermon and maybe the next time she calls what you can do is you can say, okay, mom

01:04:29

I'm sorry, you don't like what he said there But did you did you hear what he said at the end? Could we could we agree that it's important that we that we'd be really focused on the fact that that Jesus Was a true prophet and that things happen that he said we're gonna happen

01:04:43

Isn't it good that we can emphasize that that God's promises are true and that he's going to be faithful To accomplish the things that he's said that he's going to accomplish in other words

01:04:54

What I'm saying is not not I'm not just simply saying just avoid the conflict It just sounds like it's conflict for the sake of conflict, which doesn't really get anywhere.

01:05:03

Oh it is and so he doesn't understand the role of The miracles she doesn't understand the role of the prophecy the reason he said it she assumes it was all for us

01:05:15

Right, I understand I understand I get it and your task is going to be to find some way

01:05:23

Respectfully because you're to honor your father and your mother Gracefully because if you're representing a message of grace, then you can't become ungracious in the presentation of that message to find some way of Turning her toward the positive truths without necessarily getting

01:05:43

All all bogged down in all the in all the negative stuff.

01:05:49

I I know that is not always possible But it's got to be your goal.

01:05:54

That's what you got to be working toward and that's She's arguing

01:06:01

For the sake of her tradition. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah But see but see

01:06:09

John let me just tell you a story and I've This is the one one story that I remember but I've had somebody else tell me that I did almost the exact same thing

01:06:18

To them, but there have been a number of times in my life when when someone Knew they're gonna be meeting with me and they decided they wanted to have a little debate with me about some element of theology and when we got together

01:06:31

I wouldn't debate them and I sort of blew them off and I basically said

01:06:39

Well, you know if you want to go that direction, but just remember and I just gave them something positive and they walked away really disappointed because they're all geared up for this big debate and they're all deflated and then they start thinking about what

01:06:54

I said and eventually they're like, oh man, he was right No, and and it ended up in both instances.

01:07:01

It ended up changing the entire paradigm of their theology and It wasn't because I blasted them in a debate.

01:07:10

It was actually because I Sort of blew them off and then in the process

01:07:16

Gave them one thing that they didn't expect that they were gonna get So what

01:07:22

I'm saying is don't give up on the possibility that you might have that one conversation

01:07:28

Where something that you don't expect was really important ends up being the one thing that gets her thinking, you know but if The best thing

01:07:39

I can say is be prayerful be prayerful in when you expect the phone call to come always be respectful.

01:07:47

She's your mom and You know if it gets to the point where it's starting to really strain your relationship then just say let's let's not discuss this

01:07:55

And pray Yeah, and if I could add to that I think that and it's one thing

01:08:02

I always say to people pastorally at apologia as this Issue comes up quite often like I'm having a conversation with my boss or my mom my sister

01:08:09

Is that we need to consider different contexts as we're preaching the gospel and defending the faith? So there's a difference between how

01:08:15

I'm gonna handle a person Who I meet in the line at Starbucks and sees that I'm carrying a

01:08:21

Bible. They're asking questions. We have a conversation I say hey, I'll meet you here tomorrow. We have a conversation again tomorrow I have moments ahead of me with this person and it this isn't in front of an abortion clinic, right?

01:08:31

So if I'm standing in front of the abortion clinic, and I know that I have 15 seconds from door to door From when the mom comes out of the door to when she goes in to kill her child

01:08:40

I am handling that very very differently because I have 15 seconds and save this child's life

01:08:46

I've got to tell her don't murder your child. This is Christ He'll forgive you turn to him and live and we'll help you like 15 seconds

01:08:53

And I'm pleading for the life of a child and I I will call it murder I mean,

01:08:58

I'm not you know, I'm cautious about how I do that at Starbucks, right? But I'm gonna be like you don't want your latte poison.

01:09:05

For example Gary DeMar and I where we filmed something that's gonna go up in apology a studio soon last week

01:09:10

We filmed at Benihana where I took a whole table up. We filmed this conversation at Benihana They're you know making food on the table and we're having a conversation

01:09:19

I Waited until listen, I this is the truth. I waited until our chef left the table before I started talking about a boy

01:09:27

Yeah, so It's just context and when

01:09:34

I have a conversation with a family member, I need to realize look I've got Thanksgiving and Christmas and birthdays and marriages with this person.

01:09:41

I've got maybe some time It doesn't mean I'm gonna compromise It means I'm gonna be wise about how I actually present this stuff and recognize this is a family relationship

01:09:50

This person's not going anywhere. I have to see them again. I can have more time. I'm God's providence.

01:09:55

I mean, I've got Providence Thank you I I may not I may not need to blitz this person with Everything all at once and then completely divide the relationship and never get another opportunity again

01:10:05

I'm doing it to be wise about how I do that And so just be careful and I would say also I would just drop little seeds and remember this

01:10:12

Crucial crucial thing how hard was it for me to come out of this partially

01:10:18

Armenian perspective? to reform theology it took some work and it took some argument and some sleepless nights and some some moments of sweat and tears and It was pain.

01:10:29

I remember the moment. I walked out of my bedroom to tell candy that I'm I'm definitely a Calvinist was after a long long time of study and work and I remember bursting out of the room after reading

01:10:40

Bettner's predestination and the list there and I was like, that's it She's like what

01:10:46

I'm like, I I guess I always have been I was just confused. I'm definitely Calvin She's like, oh like, you know, wow and the same thing for me with the issue of eschatology it took work

01:10:57

So I need to make sure that every person is leaving a nasty comment at Apologia Studios I'm always aware that this person may come back a year from now or two years from now and say you know what?

01:11:09

Because I've had it happen so many times. I've lost count Jeff. I hated you I was so angry with you and then it was that one verse

01:11:17

That changed my mind and so I'm just always ready for that and I'm always aware that it may take this person some time

01:11:23

I've got to be patient and let God do his work with his truth I can't tell you how many times Someone's come up to me people now in ministry and reformed churches

01:11:30

And they said it was the George Bryson debate on the Bible Answer Man. They said I was driving along I was screaming at the radio.

01:11:39

I hated you I couldn't believe what you were saying and then I had to keep reading and every time

01:11:45

I'd read my Bible I'd see it there and and eventually and you know, it just took it took sometimes years this bald devil

01:11:57

Real nice things along the line. Yeah, so Yeah, you have a critical look about you

01:12:04

I'm liking his beard though. Look at that. Good beard coming in around look. Hmm Critical I don't know critical crisp sharp

01:12:14

Chris Piercing piercing piercing where where do you draw the line?

01:12:22

Between like I'm sitting here listening to her talk to other people in the family.

01:12:28

I Know what she's saying is not biblical. I know I can go to scripture. Yeah, but And I can look at it.

01:12:36

Am I lying? Am I supposed to say something or is it? Okay, after a year and a half of this to say she's gonna have to come to it on her own

01:12:45

Or is that arrogant of me? I don't even know where to go from that. Everybody everybody has to make that decision

01:12:53

Prayerfully always with great patience and grace, but there there has to come a time

01:12:59

There has to come a time where you say I've said everything that can be said if the

01:13:06

Lord's gonna do something else here He's gonna have to bring somebody else to do it I've I can think of numerous situations in my own life where I Was far more patient with someone believe it or not

01:13:17

I was far more patient with someone than another Christian would have been with that same person and then knowing that person

01:13:23

I know there are people that they were so much more Patient with somebody than I would have been so that's why there's a body

01:13:32

You just you just got to be transparent before the Lord. It's your mom Always be there for her always love her.

01:13:39

It doesn't mean y 'all just have to debate her on theology You know, even if she knows you to do it So as long as she knows that you're where you stand and that you're you're ready

01:13:50

When she's ready, but you don't have to you don't have to let it absolutely destroy your your situation either. So, okay, man

01:14:00

Jeff yeah, I love your work Luke joy, I love summer.

01:14:05

I love she logins. I love all of that The work you guys are doing and dr.

01:14:10

White. I can't imagine traveling that much but It's a sacrifice that I respect.

01:14:16

Thank you. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate my encouragement very much All right. Thanks, Johnny. Thank you.

01:14:22

Thank you. All right God bless John listens to this later on I would like to add one thing to this and that is

01:14:27

John I would encourage you to actually play this segment for her. Oh, I Would I would encourage you to do that and see what kind of impact that has on her?

01:14:39

Because I think it has value. Oh, okay. All right. Thanks, John All right

01:14:45

Well Jeff, I know that you have a appointment that you need to counseling you you got counseling to do

01:14:52

Yep, and so I figured I was gonna try to shoot for 315. We did we got it.

01:14:57

I'm good. We're doing it We're doing good Thank you so much. I think folks enjoyed getting the opportunity to to talk to both of us at the same time.

01:15:07

Yes And you're right. I I've even contacted you a couple times from the other side of the earth to point out

01:15:17

Somebody said well again tonight somebody cut to me and said hey I found out about you from watching

01:15:23

Jeff Durbin stuff and then it goes that then I found out about Jeff Durbin by watching your stuff and another person says and It just we are we need to keep taking advantage of these opportunities while we have them to be certain

01:15:36

It's it's great to have the opportunity of answering these types of questions and doing it from It what's the what's the section from the psalm that talks about?

01:15:47

how how blessed it is when brethren dwell in unity and So, you know, we talked about who's going to be filling the pulpit at Apologia We don't we don't have to worry about who's gonna be preaching what?

01:16:00

Because we know that we're gonna be preaching the same gospel. That's right on the same direction. So that's right You're up next

01:16:07

Sunday. That's right. And then I'm up to Sunday there after that. Yes, right And I'll be continuing the

01:16:13

Lord's Supper series. That's right. What are we on now for? This will be the fourth one and we're gonna go into the confession this time.

01:16:20

Okay, I Can only imagine two more. I think it'll be about six on the supper So we're gonna go into the

01:16:27

London Baptist Confession of Faith on the Lord's Supper I'll try to get done in two sessions. I think it's really really helpful people.

01:16:33

Yeah six parts It would be nice to have that available as a playlist or something like that someplace To deal with the subject the

01:16:39

Lord's Supper because I think that's extremely important and interestingly enough the last time that I ministered down in South Africa at Antioch Bible Church, they reminded me of this

01:16:48

I had remembered it that we're going that I Preached to them about the Lord's Supper and they found that extremely useful very helpful to do that.

01:16:55

Oh, yeah, and what's this? I just saw it sitting here. Did you put it here for a reason? No, no, no, it just happened to be in here Apologies So I'll say two two things.

01:17:04

I just thought that reminded me one is that reform con is happening October 24th I'm 26 here in Phoenix reform con orgs where you can get tickets.

01:17:11

So it's a very excited about it The last day is going to be an end abortion now portion And church is coming from across the country, but we also are premiering babies are murdered here to the conference

01:17:22

So dr. White is speaking Joe boot is coming just a bunch of guys and I'm very excited about it

01:17:28

Summer's gonna be here. Yeah, we're gonna do sheologians live apology radio Just just just have fun.

01:17:34

Just everyone gets together. Let's hope the internet works. Well, that's yeah But we're gonna work really hard on that next thing is is because we're gonna be in Salt Lake City I know there's lots of Christians in Salt Lake City and around and Utah that are really gonna

01:17:46

Come say hi last time it happened. We barely announced it We had a ton of people show up just to say that God's been using the ministries both yours and mine in their lives

01:17:54

And so a lot of people are showing up a lot of people want to do evangelism Out there. I just want to tell you that our tract is available at apology of studios .com

01:18:03

We just got a new order and they're selling out constantly gospel for Mormons And so we just got a new order in so Apology of studios .com

01:18:10

if you want to get the gospel for Mormons tract that we're gonna be handing out and pretty soon and I Grab one of the original grace plus works tracks for me so I can get that editing done

01:18:24

We have it's the grace bus works track, isn't it? A million tracks is doing it, right?

01:18:30

So the grace bus works is dead being meaningless tracks being done by 1 million track Is that gonna be ready by next month?

01:18:36

I don't know Yeah, yeah, I know I'll try to bring tracks.

01:18:42

Yeah, but they're gonna be putting it out and when they put it out Everybody ends up getting it. Yeah far far if you've got tracks rich send them with us.

01:18:49

We're gonna have a team driving up We'll have tracks to hand out. But so I just I just saw the sitting here and so And I just didn't move it.

01:18:56

Yeah, so this the gods really use this tract. I'm encouraged by it So yeah, just want to make sure I announce that excellent.

01:19:03

All right. Well, thanks for listening to the program today Lord Willin will be back with you probably