September 27, 2016 Show with Greg Reynolds and Bill Shishko on “Media Wars: A Battle for the Heart & Mind”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live

streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday

on this 27th day of September 2016.

I'm delighted to have two former guests back

on the program today.

One I haven't interviewed in six years.

The last time he was on the program was back in 2010, and that was on the old Iron

Sharpens Iron program broadcasting out of WNYG radio on Long Island, New

York, and this is his first interview on the all -new Iron Sharpens Iron, and that is

Dr. Greg Reynolds, pastor of Amoskig Presbyterian Church in Manchester, New Hampshire, and

perhaps he can correct me if I've mispronounced that name.

And the second hour, we have a very dear, longtime friend of

mine who has been on the program a number of occasions.

In fact, he was on not that long ago, perhaps five to six months ago, I believe, and

that's Pastor Bill Shishko, a mutual friend of Pastor Greg Reynolds and mine.

Pastor Bill Shishko is pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York,

and that is also, just as Dr. Greg Reynolds' church is, that is also

in the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you

back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Greg Reynolds.

And let me also let our listeners know that we are going to be speaking on an

overall topic, a broader topic of media wars, a battle for

the mind and heart, which is also the theme of the 21st Annual Full Bible Conference at

West Sable Reform Bible Church on Long Island.

That's a conference that Pastor Bill Shishko, our second guest, will be speaking at.

But the first hour, more specifically, we are going to be addressing Dr. Reynolds' book, which

is related to that overall theme.

And Dr. Reynolds' book is The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures, Preaching in the Electronic Age.

But before we even go into any of that, Dr. Reynolds, since it's been six years since you've been on the

program, it would be probably wise to have our listeners hear more about

Ameskig Presbyterian Church, and if you could correct me if I've mispronounced that.

I came as

close

as

anyone

to

the 20th

Public Worship

Service,

and the

odd

thing

and

amazing thing is

that it was in the building

in

that

location, it's a church

out in

Dover,

as children, and always dreamed

that the Lord would plant Reformed, Bible -centered, Christ

-centered, God -centered churches in our area.

Well, you made me feel very old because,.

Believe it or not, Dr. Reynolds, although I interviewed you six years ago, the last time I

saw you face -to -face, if I'm not mistaken, was when you hosted a conference

featuring the late Dr. John Gerstner at the Westchester Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Yes, I remember that very well, and he was always one of my favorite speakers at the Philadelphia

Conference on Reformed Theology as well, and there's one thing that you could certainly say about Dr.

Gerstner is that he never pulled punches or tried to placate to the whims

and tastes of his audience, he just preached from his heart what he believed, and he let

the.

Chips fall

where they may.

And I know that at one point when I was introducing you, if Pastor.

Bill Shishko is listening, he no doubt flinched in his chair because as soon as it came out

of my mouth, I knew that if Bill were sitting next to me, he'd reprimand me because I think I referred to

the Amiskag Presbyterian Church as your church, and Bill, as long as

I've known him, would be quick to say it's not your church, it's the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's right.

Well, we'll have Pastor Bill talk a little bit more about the denomination of the OPC

when he's on the program the next hour, but this book that you wrote back

in 2001, it was published, The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures.

Now, well, first of all, let our listeners know what compelled you to write that, and also give

us an update 15 years later on how things have changed since then

in relation to the media wars.

I changed my

view

of

preaching

so much

as

the need to

encourage

calling

on

them

as

itself, but

recognizing some of the dangers.

So after that, I went back to

New Rochelle, where I was past

to look at the whole matter of media

ecology, which had

begun

many years

ago, environment.

Yeah, I remember Neil Postman, who was Jewish, wrote Amusing Ourselves to

Death, correct?

Yeah, I had

the

privilege

of

interviewing

Dr.

Niederhood

as

well on

the old.

Iron Sharpens Iron program and enjoyed doing so immensely, and he wrote a very

wonderful commendation for the program.

Actually, that was way back in 2008.

I interviewed him on challenging thoughtful Roman Catholics to examine their faith.

That was the theme of our discussion.

He was one of the conservatives that still

hung in there with the Christian Reformed Church.

Is he still in the denomination of the CRC?

As far as I know, I'm sure he's retired by now.

Oh, okay. I think you did say Niederhood.

That was the

back of

God hour, of

course,

but

they asked him to

do a television

program.

The last

time I talked to him, several years ago, he

was because it has really veered from some

of his, and so

he

recommended

doing

it.

Yeah, and in fact, I can remember Dr. James Montgomery Boyce, who is now with the Lord

for eternity, but I remember he resisted all efforts by others to have

a televised worship service.

I didn't realize.

It was

obvious

to us that

he was paying complete attention

to the television audience that he couldn't see.

Yeah, I couldn't help but think.

I have never been a regular member of

a congregation that had televised services.

I may have been in the audience at some point when a church was

having their services televised, but I wasn't a member of a church like that, but I cannot help but think

that while you are worshiping God in song and prayer and so on,

I can't help but think that

gnawing knowledge in the back of your head that you are perhaps on camera and that everything that

you're saying and singing is going out to a televised

viewing audience.

I can't help but think that that would be a distraction from truly focusing on worshiping

God and not trying to entertain people watching TV.

Whatever.

We didn't

have a

larger

audience

in view.

Now, of

course,

on sermon audio, you do

get a

larger audience, but

we had a very

good radio station,

edited down to

26 minutes, so I

never cut the sermons or in any way tailored to the radio

audience, and so I thought it was.

A dominate or dip.

Now, in your day -to -day life

and whenever you gather to worship, how do you try to make sure

that you are separating in your mind and in the practical outcome of

your decisions in regard to worship and so on, separating

things that you are clinging to which are really purely out of sentimentalism

and things that you are clinging onto and

resisting change because you think it will actually alter the gospel message

or do some kind of harm to the affirmation of God's Word and the communication of

it?

And so it's funny, I have to constantly, I recently have written another book that I

got the criticism from Critical of Electronic Media, and I think

I have to probably

give benefits

to

your house, so I don't like anyone criticizing

much too.

At the

same time, and one

of

the reasons I went and decided

not to get

in touch with being

in apologetics.

Now,

one example of that which I've wrestled with is

I've had people

like

an

iPad

that I

think

it's probably

unwise, the codex as

a kind of solidity.

Also for me, it would be to have my sermon and the sermon,

but I think

those are

things that every session has

to, that's usually in terms of an architectural

space and in terms

of

catacombs

if we had to.

One

thing I

was

wondering

what your

thoughts were,.

And this has been around for quite a while, it's not a new innovation, but I

can remember a day when no one was doing it, or very few were, the

overhead projection for hymns.

I can see one immediate benefit, and maybe you disagree with me,

but the immediate benefit I see is just even in the posture one is taking with their head

looking up rather than down at the hymnal might be more productive

or conducive to the projection of one's voice, but perhaps you have a different.

Opinion

on that.

Yeah, I

mean

here's

the best

verse that

reminded me

of 10th from the preaching, I think a bigger problem

is whenever the scripture is projected,

focus ought to be and paying attention and having eye contact with

him.

So I think that each congregation or each session, each group of leaders that may

not be prudent in the way that they,

I'm not a huge fan of the PowerPoint, you know there are a lot of times

some minutes think

that the

one who is.

Now wouldn't you distinguish between using that kind of,.

Or those kind of tools in a worship service, or should I say during a

sermon, and somebody who's teaching?

Because I have found those things incredibly helpful if somebody is teaching or giving a lecture

on something very technical as opposed to preaching.

Point again is that it focus off the eye -to -eye contact that you have with a

speaker.

It doesn't mean that it's always unwise, it just means that that's something,

and um, let's,

let's

pronounce Chris

Arnzen.

I'm like, you

know, don't usually go together.

I think, you know, that's something that's a toss -up.

I mean, I've seen it used effectively with an

outline,

sort of unorganized

thought, PowerPoint, and they think that because PowerPoint will

organize anything that you throw into it, and that there's somehow that their thoughts are organized because,

of course, there are

a number of other apps that...

Yeah, I'll give you an example of one area where I think it was used of very

appropriately and effectively is when I saw a lecture by a well -known

biblical scholar on the veracity of the most ancient

of New Testament manuscripts evidence, and you know, you had to see things blown up

because of the ancient writings and so on, and to see, and he was going into why

over the centuries when these texts were copied,

how mistakes could easily be made because of the way the Koine Greek fonts looked,

the lettering looked, and so on, and it was just, it really opened my eyes to a lot of things, but that was not a sermon, that was

really an instruction course or lecture that I was watching.

Right,

oh yeah,

and

I think...

In fact, could you pick that up as soon as we return from the break?

Yes.

And we are going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Greg Reynolds, our

email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

So don't go away, we're going to be right back with Dr. Greg Reynolds.

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I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Voti Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway,

Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the

pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to g3conference .com, that's g3conference .com.

Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibit Booth while you're there.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Sarnes, and if you just tuned us in, our first guest today is Dr. Greg Reynolds.

He is pastor of Amiskag Presbyterian Church in Manchester, New Hampshire, and the author of The

Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures, Preaching in the Electronic Age.

Our second guest joining us at the top of the hour is Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian

Church in Franklin Square, New York, and he is going to be speaking about the theme of

West Sable Reformed Bible Church's 21st Annual Full Bible Conference.

That's at the West Sable Reformed Bible Church on Long Island, New York, so stay tuned for Pastor Bill at the top of the

hour.

But before we went to the break, Dr. Reynolds, you were going to address a question I

had about how things have changed since you wrote the book originally.

The book The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures.

Yes, thank

you,

Chris,

and less

from

each other.

Wow, that's a great title.

I'm

the co -director of the

MIT Initiative on Technology and Self and a licensed clinical

psychologist, and here's something that she says that I often repeat,

and I use this especially in the introduction, something I'll talk about in a moment, which is

that I have also an article

that

is an

action between

an interrelationship of

real and virtual.

In my 1995 life on Word on Balance, a fairly positive view

of the online, but by then, my optimism

of 1984, it had been challenged.

I was meeting people in

technology.

I think it

was

Oz

Guinness.

In fact,

there's a

sense in which all

media

are

social media because

they connect us.

It reminds me of

Trigger Warning,

and that's why

people,

Sherry

Turkle is

helpfully

pointing

out,

and it was an astonishment how much

people might be interested in going and looking at the article that I have.

In fact, I think there's also a lecture, a Sunday School lecture online at Amiskig,

but he

says

they

ought to

modify and

help

us to

be

better

stewards of

our

electronic.

Okay, we have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, and I'm not

100 sure I understand his question.

Maybe you do, but Tyler in Mastic Beach says, when it comes to electronic

-based evangelism such as on social media, do you think that some

Christian laypeople are often misunderstood by the world?

I'm assuming he means that especially a layperson might not have

an expertise or a seasoned ability to communicate the biblical truths

with clarity, but I'm not really 100 sure what he means.

Maybe you can give your take on his question.

Okay, well,

but

a

danger

would be to

think

that...

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, do you think that

one of the dangers of our modern age and our use of electronic

media during worship services is that at times it could be nothing more than

showing off the technology that your church has been able to

purchase, and sometimes there is apparently no real need for

using the devices other than to provide some form of a more entertaining

way to communicate the biblical teachings?

Oh, yeah, I think that's a...

...mega churches.

He wanted to...

I've worked

with...

Our... thing on earth

that I ever have

wanted, lifting us

up, and I try to remind myself of that when I preach each Lord's Day.

I want people to come into God's living totally

different than

their

ordinary, very

challenging world.

Would you say that one of the dangers of going.

Overboard with using a

technology, modern technology, in a worship service, especially when it comes to preaching, that it

really dehumanizes where this biblical truth is flowing

from, where it's being...

Who is exegeting it?

Who is proclaiming it?

It's another buffering factor in between the human

that God has chosen to proclaim his word, who he has anointed, who he has ordained as a

servant, and it's become more of a media experience

than a pastoral one.

...Christianized

ethical reasons, but in and of itself, pop music,

folk music, pop music is not a bad

thing,

but in

the church...

Now, that

doesn't

mean

it's contemporary,

and

so one of the parishioners was critical of the

local pastor, and it's not going to

be coming to church anymore.

And then the man's father died, and he came to the pastor and asked if he would do the

funeral.

And so the pastor apparently said to him, why don't you ask Dr.

So -and -so?

So that made a firm point.

I'm pretty sure that this...

Yeah, I can even remember one of my earliest experiences in a non -Catholic church,

because I was raised Roman Catholic.

I was at a little Pentecostal church, and there was a lot of

nonsense, I believe, that went on in that church.

But I can still remember one thing that I can see a lot of wisdom in or a lot of truth in, and I remember the

Pentecostal pastor shouting at the top of his lungs.

He was very upset that the church was cutting into their

offerings to the local church there and giving it to Jimmy Swagger and

Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and all those media charismatics that were popular in the day.

And I can remember him shouting at the top of his lungs, is Jimmy Swagger going to be sitting at your

bedside in the hospital when you're sick?

Is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker going to lower your mom or your daddy into the earth when.

They

pass

away?

No, it's

going to

be me!

That's right,

that's

the point.

If we take that seriously, we're going to be

taking care to look at how it

is that

an

excellent

youth...

Yeah, one very quick humorous story.

When I was visiting a church a number of years ago out in eastern Suffolk County, Long

Island, the church used the King James version of the Bible, and I didn't have

a King James Bible with me, so I took out my phone and looked up the King

James version of the passage that was being preached on my phone.

And the pastor came up to me later chuckling, and he said, I got to tell you this, my wife said to me after

the service, can you believe Chris Arnson was just looking at his text messages or something

on his phone during your preaching?

And he said, honey, he was looking at the Bible.

It was the King James version.

I said, no,

I happen

to...

Yes, if you could, in about two minutes, just close with a summary of what you want most

etched in.

The hearts and minds of our

listeners today.

Well, yes, I say the

denominational website I edit, which is

a number I

do sewn

together by Sherry Turkle.

Also, Nicholas Carr has written a book called The Shallows.

While I think that it

will exaggerate its

result, I

will frequently say

to people that

I

think

across both...

Well,

Dr. Reynolds, it's

been

such

a pleasure

interviewing.

You again, and let's not wait six years for our next interview.

And hopefully even let's do a two -hour interview next time.

I want to remind our listeners that the Amiskag Presbyterian Church in New Hampshire can be

found at amiskagchurch .org, and that would be spelled A -M -I -S, just like in the Bible,

K -E -A -G church .org, A -M -I -S -K -E -A -G church .org.

We look forward to having you back, brother.

Okay, thank you, Chris.

God bless you, too.

And don't go away, folks, because coming up next is my old friend, Pastor Bill Shishko of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, who is continuing our theme on media

wars, a battle for the heart and mind, which is also the theme of the 21st

Annual Fall Bible Conference at the West Savile Reform Bible Church on Long Island,

where Pastor Bill Shishko will be the guest speaker.

And again, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Bill, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages.

Lynbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place.

Of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship,.

Play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Waldeman, and I invite you to come and join us here at.

Lynbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lynbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit lynbrookbaptist .org.

That's lynbrookbaptist .org.

I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Friel, to

tell you about a conference he and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV and

occasional guest on Chris's show Iron Criticizing

Iron.

I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, my new

hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the G3 Conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer,

Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

Thanks, Todd, I think.

See you at the Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibitor's booth.

Transcribed by https://otter .ai.

Https://otter .ai

https://otter .ai

https://otter .ai.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our second guest today for the remaining hour of the broadcast is a

very dear old friend of mine, Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long

Island, New York, and he is truly one of my earliest friends

as a born -again believer in Christ, having heard him speak very

shortly after coming to Christ in the 1980s when he was

a fairly new pastor on Long Island, actually, at the time, and we're going to be talking about

the Media Wars, a battle for the heart and mind, which is the theme of the 21st Annual

Fall Bible Conference at West Sayville Reform Bible Church on Long Island, where Pastor Bill

is the guest speaker, and I just want to make sure I give you the website of the West Sayville

Reform Bible Church for more details on contacting them and directions and so on.

It's wsrbc .org.

That's W -S for West Sayville, R -B -C for ReformBibleChurch .org, but it's my

honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Bill Shishko.

It's good to be with you again, Chris.

Yeah, it's always great to have you, and I have so many fond memories of hearing you preach and

working with you in radio projects, including one that I hope that we both get involved in

shortly with a revival of a visit to the pastor's study, which is something that we did, I think,

nearly annually for quite a while in the old days of me working for WMCA radio in New

Jersey.

Well, I thank you for the high compliment, Pastor Bill, but I was born in 1962.

I thought you were a young man.

Well, you call me old friend.

Before we even go

into the main theme, if you could let our listeners know something, not only about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin

Square at Long Island, New York, but also something about the denomination itself that was founded by

J. Gresham Machen, and I know that Jesus Christ founded it, but I mean in an earthly sense as far as the denomination is

concerned.

Yeah,

sure.

The

Word

is Worth

a

Thousand

Pictures.

Electronic Age by Gregory Edward Reynolds.

The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures.

But for your listeners whose interest has been piqued by the press,

if they want to get that and read it,

it'd be well worth the study for your listeners.

So, thank you for giving that plug, do you?

Oh, no, and I urge them to order it through one of my sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service, CVBBS .com.

That's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service dot com.

And I want to thank Todd and Patty Jennings for sponsoring our program and for being

faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron since we relaunched here in Cumberland Valley.

Great.

But I

must

correct

Orthodox

Church

neighbors.

Formed as a result of the so -called fundamentalist modernist controversy in the

20th century, that was when doctrinal liberalism had begun to

really erupt.

Churches, Methodist churches, Lutheran churches, and Presbyterian churches.

The Presbyterian Church of the United

Presbyterian Church, Northern Presbyterian Church, had always prided itself in an educated

clergy, which in itself is not a bad thing.

But when your clergymen have been educated over in Germany and have been steeped

in teaching that denies not only the fundamentals of the Christian faith,

but the fundamental of the fundamentals, which is that the Bible is the word of God, when men

are infected with that, come back to pulpits and begin to teach and preach it, it's putting

toxins into the church system.

Anyway, that kind of theological liberalism developed in

the early part of the 20th century.

It's a fascinating, sad story, which included the takeover of Princeton Seminary, which was

a bastion of historic conservative Presbyterian and reformed thinking,

taking over that seminary by liberal elements.

And all of that came to a

head in the 1930s when Dr. J. Gresson Machen, as you mentioned, Tim, who

was something of the Martin Luther, I would say, of the 20th century, Dr. Machen

had written a book called Christianity and Liberalism, which, again, whether people get it from Cumberland

Valley Bible Book Service, wherever they get it, Christianity and Liberalism,

probably one of the most critical doctrinal works of the, at least the first quarter of the

20th century, in which Dr. Machen, brilliant New Testament theologian who had taught

at Princeton, said that theological liberalism, we're not talking about the political variety, but

doctrinal liberalism, which denies the fundamental God,

that Jesus performed miracles, and they really

were miracles, that he was born of a virgin, the meaning of the blood atonement of Christ.

The denial of those fundamental doctrines was not

Christianity.

That

was a war in

the 1930s, in

1930s, essentially would not support the boards of the

Presbyterian Church USA, which were proliferating liberal teaching.

These men were defrocked by the General Assembly, or at least their defrocking was upheld by the General

Assembly, and these men, a number of ruling elders from Presbyterian Church USA

churches, and of course many individuals, formed the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

It was fascinating, Chris, that when this was happening,

this made news headlines in the New York Times, because the Orthodox Presbyterian Church

was the first denomination formed as a result of the so -called

fundamentalist controversy in religion.

So it's an honor for me to be part of.

That.

Wow, I did not know it was the very first one, because I knew some others came out of it, like the Bible Presbyterian Church,

and so on.

So that's interesting to know, and you'll be happy to know that I had as a co -host in my

studio very recently Pastor Jeffrey Waddington of the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in

Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and he is God willing going to be returning to the studio on

occasion to co -host with me when his schedule permits.

So a very.

Dear friend.

Yeah, and I

didn't even know until after we went out to dinner after the

show that.

He was an old fan of Iron Sharpens Iron, dating back to when the

program first began airing in 2006 -2007 on Long Island at a WNYG radio.

So interesting.

And you are going to be, as I mentioned, one of the—well, you are the primary, if not the

sole, speaker at the West Sable Reformed Bible Church's annual Fall Conference, their

21st annual Fall Conference, and please give my warmest greetings to Pastor Drew Enegenberg.

I miss my fellowship with him, but this is going to be on the theme that we have been discussing today,

media wars, a battle for the heart and mind.

Tell us something about this conference.

Very

important about

the

Reformed

Bible Church.

I got up

at

4 .45, it's session two, and I did

borrow a thousand pictures, Christ,

Christianity, and media, which is something—it is an overview not just of church history, but

it's an overview of biblical history as well in that hour.

And then I think what most people are going to be anticipating the most is the session after the lunch,

and I will tell you that the people at West Sable Reformed Bible Church are great cooks.

They always have a wonderful spread of food.

It would be enough—.

I remember that because I've

been to a number of places—and

my trick here,

Chris, is I'm

happy to whet people's appetites for these three segments, but I'm not going to tell them too much

because I want them either to come or to get the MP3 files, which will be available through

the West Sable Reformed Bible Church.

I do have a listener waiting to have a question asked.

If you want me to ask it now or do you want me to wait, I'll leave that up to you.

Okay, we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks, I have

seen and heard more and more, even Reformed churches, during the closing

comments by the preacher, you will hear the tinkling of a piano

or the tinkling of the keys on an organ to set some kind of a mood.

I was startled when I heard it being done in a Reformed church because prior

to that experience, I had only witnessed it in Charismatic churches and other non -Reformed.

Churches.

What is your opinion on this?

Well, I

appreciate

the feedback.

However,

it's kind of a cultural

oil in

the

crank, and

it's

going

to stimulate your thought.

Most people don't use music from Bach as the musical bridge to or

the music underlying their announcements.

They use some kind of entertaining, warm, soothing type music or exciting music,

and basically what that does, it's meant

to, and so you'll have

sometimes kind of exciting type of music before a sportscast or something like that, or very

somber music before news that comes in.

And unless you really, I mean, even if you do believe that somehow the

words are insufficient or not necessary, I don't think it's really necessary to

try to launch your announcement with that kind of music.

So is it wrong?

Well, one of

the things that is obviously.

A benefit to our modern technology is that these conference

sessions that you will be speaking at are going to be eventually on mp3 files, God

willing, and this is the kind of thing that is definitely a powerful plus

in the realm of spreading the Gospel in a very easy and.

Inexpensive

way in our modern

era.

I'm writing to

you,

or come to

you, tell people that this was the original email.

It was an epistle.

And yet even in his email, and I'll get to

the point of this in a moment, but people

miss the fact that in, I'll say, Christian communication that is fully

Christian, personal presence is an inherent part of that.

My favorite text in that regard is in 1 Thessalonians 1,

when Paul

says, "...our word

did

do in word own.".

Found, that is,

the word was made flesh and

dwelt among us.

In fact, without giving it away to my second presentation on

Saturday on Christ, Christianity, and Media, the resolution,

and

that provoked many

practitioners.

Now, why do I say that?

There's something, there will be something about this conference on Saturday that

people who are there for the sessions, hearing it personally, will

or will not.

I'll be looking at the people, and I agree completely.

I, for many reasons, one is I want people to be looking

at me when I'm teaching.

My eye expressions, my enthusiasm, my energy, but the way I look at them, that's

part of communication.

And it is inseparably, and the

interaction of a

speaker with the people, and so on.

Very often, the effect,

it's not just enhanced, it is

coupled with the personal involvement of the speaker with

them.

I could go on

and on about that.

I don't want them to have

that.

I want them to hear that material as it's presented for oral community,

orality, and there's a particular power in orality.

You know, one of the points that will really drive this home with a lot of people

is how easily, when you don't see a person or hear them, and you're not in their

presence, how easily arguments and hurt feelings have

erupted over email, because you totally get 180 degree different meaning from an email

than the person who wrote it intended by it.

You don't know if the person was furious with you, or if they were saying something in jest,

or if they were saying something as a compliment, or as an insult on occasion, because sometimes

the thing that changes the meaning of a particular statement is the

twinkle in the eye, the expression on the face, and the tone of voice.

I didn't want to watch

them.

I listened.

People

need to realize that,

and this is

more Dr.

Reynolds' field

than mine, but

somebody, that his or her mother

communicate real information, but little bites of

it, but when you are having to deliver

something to the importance of personal presence, when a soldier

has been killed overseas, I mean, the U .S. military doesn't give them a

phone call telling them this.

They send a representative to the house, and see,

those are the kinds, not only that we need to be aware of, but

especially as Christians, if we're meant to be a fragrance of

Christ to other people, we need to pay attention to exactly.

How we are doing that.

Yes, and one thing that you, when you were talking about the debate last night, just immediately reminded me of

when Richard Nixon debated JFK, and everybody, or the

majority, I should say, who heard the debate on the radio clearly thought Richard Nixon won, and the

majority who saw the televised debate thought that JFK won hands down.

Absolutely, yeah, and you hear this, and

I think, who cares?

And the

White House backs

up.

See, that's an idiot, but you know,

by the media.

Right, a lot of people would say that's one of the key reasons Ron Paul never really

achieved success while running for president, but of course there are differences of opinion on what he

stands for, but we have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Bill Shishko, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your

first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away, we're going to be right back with Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of

Franklin Square, no longer the pastor there, but not retired either, and we're going to

be returning after these messages.

Chris Arnn's in here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Balcombe, Conrad M. Bayway,

Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars

of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528

-5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV

program, entitled, Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org, that's providencebaptistchurchma .org,

or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Live, work, and worship.

Learn more about the Thriving Story by contacting me, Mike Gallagher, Financial

Consultant, at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433.

A new faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thriving Story.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our second guest today is Bill Shishko

of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, and he has a

ministry that we will be discussing a little bit more in a

regional home missionary project, Reformation Metro New York, that perhaps before we go off the

air, we will have him summarize a little bit more for you about that.

But if you would like to join us on the air with a question about media wars, a battle for the heart and mind,

which is also the theme of the conference Pastor Bill is speaking at, at the West Sable Reformed Bible Church on Long Island,

New York, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson

at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your

country of residence, and that conference, by the way, is this Saturday, correct?

Yep, this Saturday, October.

And the website for West Sable Reformed Bible Church, for more details, including directions, and so on,

is wsrbc .org, wsrbc .org.

We have a listener, let's see here, where is he from?

We have John in Portsmouth, New Hampshire,

who, he asks, do you think that we have

had too many wars with Brethren in Christ, with whom we agree with on so much

over more trivial matters, which may include the style of music

and other things that we introduce into our worship services?

...are

well aware

with your...

That's not in

their

view

of

worship,

and I

don't

mean

that

pejoratively,

it's just descriptively, they're more traditional in their view of worship to criticize quote -unquote contemporary

worship hymns or music.

Well, there's a lot of contemporary worship music, some of it, like the

works done by Keith and Kristen Getty.

Oh yeah, they're great.

Yeah,.

We have one of those in our bulletin at least a few times a month that we sing from at Grace.

Baptist Church in

Carlisle.

Yeah, and we do this for those who

want to only defend... well, quite frankly, some of the

songs that are used are incomprehensible to the modern

listener.

Sunday evening, in a service with which I was involved, and I don't mean this critically, but we need to think about this, you know, here

I raise my... imagine something, at

least, the minister, something

of what mine Ebenezer means, and you

know, I think it's an important in 1 Corinthians 14

at that time, but there

were basic lessons.

One is that we're to sing and speak with the understanding.

If people don't... I think

there we go back to the

three basic

standards

for what we would sing.

One, is it scriptural?

Number two, is it suitable for worship service?

Some things may not be suitable for worship service, but they're okay for a camp or something.

Is it scriptural?

Is it

suitable?

And is it

singable?

Because one of...

By the way, John in

Portsmouth,.

New Hampshire, I don't know how close you are to Manchester, but you might want to look

up, if you haven't already, the Amiskag Presbyterian Church, where our first guest is the pastor.

And again, that website is Amiskagchurch .org.

Amiskagchurch .org.

And by the way, since you're a first -time questioner, John, you're going to get a free New American Standard Bible,

complements of the publishers of the NASB, and it will be shipped to you by our friends at the

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

So keep your eye open for that.

In fact, we need your full mailing address as well.

All's we have is your city and state, John, so if you'd like to get that free Bible, give us your full

mailing address.

We have Aaron from Indianapolis, Indiana.

I wonder if Mr. Shishko has...

Is that okay if they call you Mr. Shishko?

That's my name.

That's just so foreign to my ear, hearing Mr. Shishko.

I wonder if Mr. Shishko has data on an opinion about the success or efficacy

of sharing the gospel or theological memes on Facebook and such, or whether they

are more off -putting to the unbelieving Facebook friends.

Aaron.

Well, I guess she heard me, and you clarified that you're not the pastor anymore.

Okay,

that's

fair.

Well,

Dr.

Reynolds,

whatever

you like, I

may find that

interesting and want to read it, or I

delete it, or a photo, and that's kind of neat, and I'll look at it and then delete it.

Now, that is like

junk mail, okay?

Well, exactly the opposite of junk mail.

Doesn't make it wrong, but people need to realize that it does alter the message.

It seems to me,

you're in a Facebook, and the person

says, you know, I really have a problem with Christians, I really, you know, they're a bunch of hypocrites, and they're all homophobic,

and you know, whatever the thing would...

I think rather than try to tangle this thing on Facebook, these are big issues, and they're

important issues, and they're sensitive issues.

You can't, apropos of your point, Chris, before, you can't communicate those kinds of

sensitivities via Facebook.

Far better to find this friend, ask if you could personally, if you could

call this friend and speak with a friend, or better yet, if the friend is nearby, take the friend out for

lunch or a cup of coffee or something, and speak with the person personally.

This is what we mean by kind of media sensitivity in what

we do.

So I may

not...

What is the...

Well, thank you very much, Aaron, and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and spreading the word in Indianapolis,

Indiana, about the program.

I really, before we run out of time, before we know it, I want you to make sure that you have said all that you

wanted to share with our audience about your regional home ministry project, and...

I'm just going to invite them all hour on it.

How's that?

Well, that sounds great.

I would definitely like that.

Yeah, I

would,

because

it's a means of...

One will be, something's

been

working on this

for the last month, although I've been thinking about a seminary of the air,

which will allow people over a three -year period, this would be the beginning of this, to go through

an historic Reformed doctrinal standard and receive a certificate of completion.

That we're looking into all these things, Chris, we're working on with lots of counsel from

people who are familiar with the broadcast world and what's needed and so on.

And then the third, which would be down the line, would be a series of vimeos.

Now, here again, it's different media, but in this case, people I deal with

on, or at least they're looking at me, on taking the material I've done on pastoral theology

and putting it in sort of bite -sized formats for pastors.

In each case, we're trying to fill what we see to be a void in Christian media today.

But I'd love to take an hour out here.

We're good friends.

I'll invite myself to your program for.

Doubt More.

Well, I have a calendar here, so after the show's over, if you stay on the phone, I can go through

some open dates that we have.

Oh, I'm looking forward to it.

May I talk a little.

Bit more about the conference on Saturday?

Oh, definitely.

Yeah, great.

Well, again, if this is going to be held at the West

Coast Church, Chris,

or

Bible

Church, wsrbc .org,

and you can actually call their office for more information, 631 -5891,

and I'm

excited about this conference.

Basically, this is the kind of thing I hope to be doing.

The conference is called Media Wars, A Battle for the Heart and the Mind,

Section 1, 10 o 'clock to 1115.

It's called Amusing Ourselves.

It's one of the few

secular books.

I don't know how many copies I've given out to other people.

It's one of the few secular books that, which is

basically a theological publication, but

took Amusing Ourselves to Death, came out in 1985.

He was regarded as being just kind of a Luddite.

He was regarded as being somebody who was just out of touch with reality when he warned about

that 26 years later, or

21 years later.

Yeah, I remember James.

Montgomery Boyce in the 80s bringing up that book.

Oh, yeah, it came out in 1985,.

And so we're going

to, we're going to,

it's a

fascinating book.

Last week, I listened more to

the word medium.

Well, it's

called

Christ, Christianity, and Media.

What it's going to be is an overview, essentially, of biblical history, where there is a very

thick stream of essentially warning about the, I'll put it this way, the

abuse of the image in religious worship.

And we'll show how that issue of image and word is

in the Church, and then we're going to show how, in Church history, that got distorted,

revived in the Protestant Reformation, and also, I believe, even in the Protestant Reformation,

to some extent, in a different way, got distorted.

So it's an interesting, very interesting historical approach, and that will bring us to the present

and the kinds of questions that your listeners have asked on the program today.

And then 145 to 3 o 'clock, after the excellent luncheon people will have,

Winning the War of the Media Worlds, and there's where, as a pastor, and every

pastor is a theologian, too, I've been thinking through essentially the

way we think through these issues biblically and resolve these issues, and without giving it away,

I have become fascinated with the fact that in the New Testament, there is an

absolutely profound way this issue of image and word

are brought,

for many reasons, really are contrary, are very much

contrary to the way the Gospel is to be presented.

Amen.

Well, we've got to make sure that as many of our listeners as possible, especially those on Long Island, go

to that conference, and the website, again, for West Sable Reformed Bible Church is

wsrbc .org, wsrbc .org.

We have time for one more listener's question.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know,

do you have any objection to a movie about biblical topics

that do not portray an image of Jesus Christ, but perhaps the apostles,

disciples, etc., where there are extra -biblical

wording inserted into the script because of the fact that we have limited knowledge

from the biblical data on certain things that may have occurred between texts that we read?

Yeah.

Yeah, again,

that's

a

cuckooed,

isn't he?

Trying to

depict Jesus is both a,

it can

only misread, and it

depends what you mean.

Is it a documentary?

Is it a, you

know, so long as people understand what

that genre is and what it is not.

If it's a documentary, it should try to represent the biblical data as much as possible.

If it's historical fiction that is put in a movie form, people should understand that.

So long as people are self -conscious about what this is and what

it is not, no, I don't have a problem with that at all.

Thank you, Arnie.

And one thing that came to mind about a very

serious negative effect of using imagery of Christ in a movie,

I saw a movie that otherwise I enjoyed very much and did not know that there was actually going to be imagery

of Christ in it, but the Joseph Fiennes movie, Risen, about the centurion

who had been in charge of the guards watching the

sealed tomb of Christ, and then when they later on in the movie

had depictions of the risen Christ in the film, it was the same

actor that was in a very notorious film playing a drug dealer and dangerous criminal,

and that was something that could not be erased from my mind when I was watching the imagery.

Chris, that's absolutely profound, that epitome.

Yeah, that's pragmatism at its worst there.

Well, I know that the website for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square is

opcli .org, O -P -C for Orthodox Presbyterian Church, L -I for longisland .org,

but do you have any other website or contact information that you care to share?

I do Reformation Metro New York, and that's all one word.

I'd love to interact with you a bit.

My work is still pastoral ministry, just that I'm doing it more through the media right now, different kinds of media, so I'd

love to hear.

Well, Pastor Bill, it has been such an honor and privilege to have you back on the program, and I hope that

we have more frequent visits from you on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I look forward to having you back on to even dedicate, as you had mentioned, an hour or

two on your new ministry that you're involved in.

And I just want to thank everybody who actually took the time to write in

today with your questions.

I look forward to hearing from more of you tomorrow for our guests, and I just want

all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner, and I hope to hear from you soon with your questions for our guests

on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

God bless, and we'll talk to you soon, Pastor Bill.

Looking forward to it.

I'll stay on the line.

I got my calendar open.

Great.

I'm looking forward to scheduling another interview with you.

God bless everyone.