News Roundup: Cru, SBC, & VP Debate

Conversations That Matter

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We are live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris. We have a lot to get to today

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I want to give you an update though before we get into the topics. We're gonna talk about the SBC We're gonna talk about crew.

00:13

We're gonna talk about the VP Presidential debate last night and I did watch it most of it probably 90 % of it

00:22

I Missed a little part of the end, but I don't think it was that significant

00:27

So I'll give you my general impression and then some of the things being discussed today on X there's so much

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I've saved a lot of things to talk about and Because of the news cycle and how intense it's been and how short it's been.

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There's a lot of stuff. I've just I pushed off and said I'm not gonna talk about it because there's more important things and and so If you have questions, this is why

00:53

I wanted to say if you have questions or you want me to talk about something You don't hear me talking about that. You think is important during the course of this podcast

01:01

Let me know you can do that on YouTube. You can do that on X you can do that on Facebook in the live chat sections, and I will try to address it because There's a lot of things

01:10

I've thought through but like I said With everything going on and with time constraints

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We can only hold we can only handle so much and I think that's a scale issue with humans

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We we operate on a scale that cannot conceive of all the things especially international news But let alone national news

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Let alone the news in our particular Christian groups or social groups or local groups

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We just we have to make decisions as to what we're going to actually talk about So Ray says hello from Albuquerque.

01:43

Hey, Ray, Jimmy starfish says John is the apologist we need not the one we deserve I don't know what that means.

01:48

I don't know what that means. Jamie I hope it's a good thing. But am

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I an apologist? I don't really think of myself that way But you know, the thing is whenever anyone asked me what I do.

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I always have a hard time I don't know what to say. I was in Alaska Once a few years ago and someone asked me that on a tour bus.

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We were in Denali National Park He said what did you what do you do for a living? And I said I talked about religion and politics and he turned right around and walked the other direction

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And I thought well, maybe that's not the intro. I should give maybe that's not my opening But yeah, people say

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I appreciate your ministry and I don't correct people when they say that I know it ministered to them

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So what am I gonna say? but I don't consider it a ministry as in I Don't look at what we do on this podcast or what

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I do in my books or even the speaking whether it's in churches or at Political events. I don't I don't view it as ministry in the sense of like official ministry, right?

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It's not a 501c3 and I'm not the extension of a particular church

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But in a some in some ways, I guess I am right I am a member of my church I am accountable to my church.

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I do talk about a lot of theology. So true script is certainly a ministry but The conversations that matter podcast and the things

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I do a lot of it is just things I think are needed things that often,

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I don't see being said that I think this should be said and It's a I think I've described it before in the podcast.

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It really is It's a it's not a multivitamin, but it is a supplement and that's what

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I intend the podcast to be and that's what it has been so Anyway, let me talk about real quick what

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I was gonna talk about which is the retreat last weekend Many of you prayed for it. I appreciate that we had a great time with a great bunch of guys and this actually was an extension of the

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Ministry of Grace Bible Church where I attend and also true script and I I spoke on Sunday morning.

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I was also part of a panel Saturday night. I Had a few guys by the way, I wanted to address this real quick The videos aren't out yet, but they should be coming out.

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I would think in the next few weeks we had a professional actually come and record everything rather than relying on me and whether I forget to take the lens cap off and that kind of thing and So it should be really good high quality stuff.

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True scripts gonna put it out. But on Was a Saturday night we had a panel and I'm one of these guys

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I have a hard time hiding my emotions All right, like if I'm disturbed about something, hopefully

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I'm getting better at this not in a deceptive way But just in a like sometimes like you you don't want to eat broccoli at someone's house, right?

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And then have a look on your face, right? By the way, some broccoli is okay But sometimes I'm not a big like broccoli guy, right?

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Although I've had some good versions of broccoli, but if it's something I don't like it's it I really don't like Spinach I don't like spinach.

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I don't know what it is guys. I know it made Popeye strong. I just don't like it You don't want to have like a nasty look on your face, right?

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I'm one of those guys that has a hard time when I was dating my wife. I remember they had mussels, right?

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I'm not a big mussels guy as far as the seafood mussels and They and that's all they had it was like mussels and noodles and I went over there for dinner and man

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I was trying I was tried so hard, but that's just who I am It's it's it's written on my face. And so Saturday night it was

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It doesn't matter the specifics don't matter, but I had a piece of news that really just bothered me about a ministry that I considered to be mostly a good ministry positive force for good and that kind of thing and And I got some bad news right before the panel and I just thought man

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I can't you know, my mind was somewhere else a little bit and You know, and I think that people notice that and and the next morning, you know

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I had a chance to think about it all night and the next morning is when I gave my talk and it very much Influenced what I said, so I'm excited for that to come out because I think we all it's not just me

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But I think we all have this tendency It's human nature right to get discouraged at times

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But in the situation we're in now where you have ministries often ministries we thought were solid showing their true colors showing that there's compromise showing that there there were attempts in to suppress information that should have been out there that would have brought accountability those kinds of things

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I expect more and more because of the work that I do but you know this

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I got a piece of information that just threw me for a loop a little bit and and that happens that happens to all of us and I just I really think

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I've been writing on this. I've been thinking about this that New institutions do need to form but they can't be the same as the institutions that we had

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They can't have the managerial elitism in there. They're going to have elites elites are inescapable.

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You're going to have People who are influential that people see as an example.

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We need that but what I mean by managerial elites and Managerial elitism is we don't want people who are loyal to their own

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Managerial class at the expense of those that they should be serving We need new metrics to determine whether or not someone is actually qualified to be in positions of influence in management and it can't be simply because you went to a certain school or you ran in the same crowd or you have this recommendation from someone who was

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Respected from managerial elite institutions it's going to have to be something more new and it's something a lot of us are thinking about and writing about and it's at a time when the

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Internet and AI is also Rising and influence and so there's many working parts to this but it's going to have to be based on something older than this weird managerial elite moment we're in it's gonna have to be based on virtue and that's what

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I talked about quite a bit and Contrasting neo -evangelicalism and their willingness to syncretize with worldly philosophies in order to gain supposed influence with the actual pursuit of real influence

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And real power and that doesn't come with a compromise that syncretizes

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You can't do that and and gain influence. There's going to be compromises in a political sense, but They can that they can't be compromising ones where you infiltrate yourselves with the thinking of the world

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That's not going to happen. That can't happen. That's what's been happening for years taking business principles from the secular world that are mostly about manipulation

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Taking psychology taking social justice activism ideas and then just fusing them with Christianity That's what we've been living in for I think a lot longer than most of us know and that's one of the reasons we did

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The retreat and we're doing other events with true through true script we want to raise up men some men you've never heard of but you need to Because these men aren't the managerial elites that are riding the conference circuit that you don't know who they actually are

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They're not the Steve Lawson types They're people who are accountable in their local churches who aren't going from church to church messing the churches up I don't know how many people reached out to me by the way after the

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Steve Lawson thing and we're like, oh, yeah You know, I I could see that Here's a story of him losing his temper multiple one stories like that or here's a story of you know

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Have you seen all the churches that he's gone through and how kind of he's just poisoned to a church

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He goes into these churches. It doesn't work out. He pops from church to church. He never really wanted a pastor he just wanted to preach

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I'm thinking man, it'd be really nice if some of that stuff had come out before this scandal, but That's not what we want we don't want someone who's

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So distant and so on high and so shielded in the green room cushioned from everyone that You only get this image of them when they're on a panel or on at the pulpit or in front of the camera we want people that are

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Accessible who have accountability in their local lives who people actually know they don't disappear after they preach

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They they're there with the people in all kinds of circumstances Circumstances and Doesn't mean they have the scale to be with everyone who they ministered to on a national or international level

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I'm saying in their local churches their congregations. These are these are known people. You know who their

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Families are it they don't keep secrets, you know they're they're not the kind of people to Just have this one side of them and that's why we do these retreats in part because we don't have a green room

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You're gonna be with the speakers where I'm gonna try to bring to you speakers and we had Richard Bargess who's a great headline speaker who you know, he is this kind of guy who is

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I think faithful and my dad's known him for years, but he's he is

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He's a family man. He doesn't care about money. He's he's just like all the things that you want

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That's the kind of guy he is and those are the kinds of guys that I try to invite To have come because they're men of virtue and and that's what we're doing with true script

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That's what I'm doing. And that's what we did over the weekend We had a wonderful time a lot of guys. We had 70 guys out in the middle of the

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Adirondack Mountains Next year. I think we're gonna go back to adding another day only it's gonna be a day for Fellowship relaxing being in the mountains because there's fishing there's hiking there's rock climbing there's all kinds of things to do up there and When you only have one afternoon it feels short.

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That's what a lot of guys told me So we're gonna be announcing for next year. We're gonna have an extra day. I think but uh, anyway,

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I I'm feeling good. I am I am When I got the news that I got that kind of distracted me on that panel and that evening

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I've kind of worked through it and I'm just I'm at the point where I'm like You know what?

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The Lord is doing a work. The Lord is that we can trust his sovereignty. He's going to Expose what's happening in secret in ministries that you might have even trusted sometimes

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But these ministries had compromise in them. You need to know I think when that happens

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I I don't mean the the graphic details of everything. I don't need to know who you know exactly what in every way

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Steve Lawson was doing with this young lady, but I Need to give that one example

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But you need to know that when the people that you look up to and trust if there are major character flaws people around them notice and have don't say anything about Those are the kinds of things that are necessary to I think be exposed so that they can be held accountable

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They shouldn't be examples to anyone if they are not qualified if they don't meet the qualifications in Scripture for being an elder.

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It's I Maybe I'm strict, but I say no bueno. That's you're done, man That's conference circuit stuff.

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You know the this elevation beyond the local church. First of all, that's not a great idea Anyway, but but but that's how it's really

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I think spun and presented even for people who are all about the local church They they act that way it's

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How more so if you're in that level of influence? Do you need to have character virtue?

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You need a match at the very least those qualifications All right, so I've spent the first 13 minutes talking

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I guess about myself in the weekend But hopefully that's a valuable update for some of you we need to jump into stuff because there's a lot to to get into today and Ray Ray asked

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Christian discernment ministry, I guess. Yeah, you can say some of what I mean I thought I'm gonna talk about politics do today.

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So we're gonna get into some of that Jenna Cole says Vance. Yes Yes, we all not all of us not all of us many of us many are saying they like Vance Okay Let's talk about Crew first because that might be the longest segment in this whole entire podcast and I swear.

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I want to get started. So I just want to say Gwen Smith. You're gonna see

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Gwen Smith as the person who is Hosting this particular I Don't know what you even call it meeting.

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It's a it's a zoom meeting. It's an all -crew zoom meeting And this happened I think last

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Friday, that's why someone else recorded it for me, it's the quality is not the greatest, but you'll be able to hear at least and Gwen Smith for those who don't know is the

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US National Director of oneness and diversity. So It's interesting to me that she if someone you might remember from crew 19

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It was her and her husband who were on a panel or a teaching seminar and a breakout session and there was a

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Older lady. I think it was who said hey, look, I'm being told I have white privilege. I Look through my ancestry.

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I don't even see any slaveholders in my ancestry and she's practically crying What can

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I do? And you know, why am I being accused of this? And I remember the Smith's Basically said well too bad you got white privilege that back when

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Smith is hosting this meeting and I see that as somewhat Symbolic or interesting that they're giving her that position in a meeting like this because I think it sends a message that this is

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Important to crew that this isn't going away though the oneness and diversity stuff the social justice stuff.

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You don't like in crew It's not gonna go anywhere. Those those people are still there and and this is evidence of that and so They do talk about a number of things

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I don't want to get into all of it, but I will show you a few things first There's this is not a major major thing compared to what we're gonna talk about but there is this section on The diaspora and I thought it was interesting because it wasn't defined initially

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But then it was and I thought wow, this is an interesting way to talk about Immigrants migrants

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People from other places that are new to the United States. It used to be just a few years ago

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This would be under the banner of diversity this is diverse ministry or this is a even a couched in terms of racial reconciliation and This is part of Revelation 7 ministry where the body of Christ is going to look different and usually you'd be beaten over the head if you were a white guy for your racism if you objected let's say to ministry funds and being totally rerouted to these endeavors and people being guilted into Having to take this posture of just listening

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They can't even engage in a common ground of biblical interpretation because There's these superior perspectives from these diverse people groups, you know, everything

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I'm talking about. This was the the DEI CRT stuff. Well There I think that it's like a

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PR person like was Determining all the language in this particular

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Well, really all the Presentations and this one's no exception. So let's talk about this first.

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This is See if I put some time stamps down We're gonna talk a little bit about I guess this

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Diaspora and what can we change in that? So that's we're at right now. We're very much in the midst of it Of beginning that phase two.

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So with that I'm sure there's a lot of questions In that but would be happy to answer those that I know now

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But I would love to pass it to Angela because as Gwen mentioned she's going to give us an update on the diaspora working group

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Thanks, Amanda. I appreciate that. So I'm Angela Conaghan and I'm chief of staff with us digital strategies

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Live in Orlando, Florida, and I'm going to be giving you an update on the working groups purpose

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Our members and a little bit more about the vision and background of the project so in In a few ways, we really served as an extension of the

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US field team led by Jake Excuse me

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Abraham from Crew City so with one of the US field teams comics common strategic priorities being that of reaching the

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Diaspora, we really were asked to build a strategic roadmap that collectively builds movements in the diasporic

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Diasporic communities in the United States So as a group we've been calling it our we've been calling our proposal when build and send in among and through the diaspora our working group members were people from different parts of the ministry that have been serving in or are a

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Part of the diaspora community and I learned a lot from working alongside those leaders

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So we had leaders from city from athletes in action from family life from campus us capacity and jesus film

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So we met as a group of eight and we really took into consideration. Not only our audiences, but also our practitioner our practitioners

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And the support structures that are out there and that other people have utilized in ministry related to Ministry in among and through the diaspora

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So that's what we've been calling it when build and send in among and through the diaspora. Those are a lot of prepositions

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I'll tell you more about it As I was talking with Angelina from jesus film who also serves on the project

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One of the things she observed is we really spent around 50 hours of strategic planning brainstorming analysis and proposal development

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And as we did that we compiled a proposal And made a presentation around a strategic roadmap for ministry through and among diaspora people so you might be asking yourself when you think about the vision of Diaspora ministry.

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What is that? So we've been really laser focused on developing a great commission ministry philosophy

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Framework and strategy that paves the way for impactful movements In diaspora communities, so that doesn't just mean us showing up and doing all the work

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Really we're acknowledging that diaspora ministry is great commission ministry. The lord has been at work in among and through diaspora communities

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Well before crews started doing any work amongst those communities So our group spent a lot of time reflecting on matthew 28 18 through 20

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Which we all know and jesus came and said to them all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

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Go therefore and make disciples of all nations Baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit

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Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and behold i'm with you always to the end of the age

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So I read that and spent some time on that passage because we spent a lot of time reflecting on that This is about making disciples

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In among and through diaspora communities So it's an invitation of belonging to a community of transformation and growth into the likeness of christ as we make disciples and we don't just make disciples amongst ourselves we

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Cross cultures and we minister to those around us and god is really a god who is on the move

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That was a big thing that we talked about. Dr Sam, george is someone who talks a lot about that that god has built his kingdom through the dispersion of people

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So our group focused a lot on what does it look like to nurture cross -cultural relationships?

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Identifying shared narratives within the diaspora And mutual resourcing that we can take action hand in hand to holistically help fulfill the great commission

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Some people warn the seats and hear stories but do nothing about it, but jesus is on the move

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He is still walking on water calling people out of the desert To be ambassadors of his kingdom one of the things that compels us in ministry is

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Other people brought the gospel to us. They cross cultures And really jesus is a great culture crosser and that brought a lot of perspective

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To our work as we thought about the background of this project God has always spread his kingdom through people crossing cultures.

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And so out of that gratitude that we have For others crossing cultures, we want to cross cultures to share the gospel

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So what is the diaspora? It's the spread and dispersion of people from their original homeland The diaspora is made up of both first and second generation people and it's a part of all of our stories

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So I was saying the gospel came to us through other dispersed people

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And as those people cross cultures and others cross cultures to bring the gospel to us

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The gospel has reached the ends of earth. And so we want to be people who are

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Recognizing that we're privileged to join In god's building of his kingdom in the ways that he's been at work throughout history

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So every hour over 300 Okay, i'm gonna stop right there. Uh, so There's so many questions.

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What do I think about this? I don't actually know exactly what I think about it because I don't know exactly what's going on in crew.

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Uh, it's It's interesting though. You hear this word. It's it's a buzzword. Um You'll hear it like the lazain covenant

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Uh has a statement about this Uh, there's some other ministries that talk about this, but it's not a word that you hear used a lot

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And if this is the way according to the speaker here that god is already working

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This is part of a continuation of something. He already is doing Then I guess it begs the question, you know, why specifically have a different sector in your organization devoted to it like If this is just the way god moves then this should just be normal ministry not a special thing

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That you have to have a special committee for but I think it is something special it is something different uh, and Ignoring the uh taking out of context

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Theological concepts there like jesus crossing cultural boundaries as if he's part of a diaspora coming to earth.

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That's really strange. That's uh, Frankly, that's odd and I wouldn't trust someone to teach the bible if that's the kind of thing they're teaching.

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That's clearly not Uh related to What she's talking about what angel is talking about here.

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Uh, jesus left this was leaving um a

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His throne in heaven leaving his place with the father not suspending obviously his

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Attributes as the second person of the trinity. This is why there's a mystery to the hypostatic union, but Becoming a man entering humanity in order to save humanity specifically entering a jewish context now that is uh, that is not the same as people moving from Mexico to the united states.

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That's not the same as someone coming from angola to a western country, right? that is uh a much more profound theological concept and to compare them is

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Frankly somewhat insulting to be honest. It reduces. I think what christ actually did Uh, and it's not something we can relate to um on uh

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Level of immigration, but that's really what is being talked about here is immigration And this is a moment in the united states when we have a lot of immigration going on and some of it is illegal and so uh crew

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It doesn't surprise me crew would be engaged in something like this and I don't have a problem Actually at all.

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In fact, I think christians should be christian ministry should be Spreading the gospel and making disciples of everyone including those who are coming to western countries the united states in particular here from other places that may mean that You end up, you know, if that's a priority you end up hiring people who speak their language and that kind of thing

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Um, but I think because of the experience we've had over the last few years there's going to be a natural skepticism and Wondering what exactly is going on here?

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What kind this is very vague in general, but what are the specific plan proposals for reaching these people these?

26:55

different people Is this going to be similar to the dei stuff that we've seen in crew before?

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uh, is this going to be uh a you know where we have to change all our perspectives around and Uh reroute funds going to Other ministries to do this thing over here how successful is it is it going to be is it going to end up having a political edge that Reinforces these people even if they're illegal must stay in the united states

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Just like sandra van opstel talked about in their 2019 crew convention. I don't know uh,

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I don't know exactly what this is, but i'm just putting it out there that um, this is Uh a potential place if I was going to be looking in crew to see hey

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Where's the social justice stuff still at because we I know it's it's still there Obviously they've won this in diversity still and I just talked a few weeks ago about how family life had just put out this um basically crt infused

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Directive, but you know if you're still looking for other places and and this is how oftentimes the left acts

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And operates they will change terms they will switch departments They will eliminate one group and and have another group.

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That's where I would be looking I would that's one of the places I would be uh, keeping an eye out to see if that kind of stuff re -emerges uh, that's just Wisdom, hopefully that i'm giving you if you are in crew

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Um, just keep your your eyes open Um, yeah hump dito says his diaspora illegal aliens

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Uh, that's the question that's one of the questions I have I think so I think they probably would fit into that um

28:37

That's They need a translator in order to understand what she is getting at There are a lot of words, but I don't think she said much with them

28:43

Well, that's the whole thing That's this whole entire thing and i'm about about to show you some other clips that are much more significant uh that will also

28:52

Give you a lot of words, but I don't know that there's much being said It's a frustration I have sometimes when I play clips because i'm like man

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I got to play this whole thing for people to understand Uh what you could have said in maybe a sentence or two

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But uh, let's keep going here. I want to share with you. This is the real reason that I wanted to talk about this um

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I think we're gonna go here Let's see here. Where do I want to start?

29:20

All right, we'll start here. Uh, this is a The theological development department talking about The compassionate and faithful curriculum which as you know

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If you listen to this podcast, I did a long podcast on it is a curriculum That is very influenced by preston sprinkle, which is very subversive to christian

29:43

Teaching on sexuality and you can go back and watch the podcast I did well Here's what they're saying about it and they give a reaction to Some of the critiques that they've received

29:54

Thank you, glenn. Uh, you're kind. Uh, I apologize for my voice. Um, i'm a victim of the covid resurgence, uh day four here, but Uh looking forward to uh visiting here for a few minutes

30:06

Uh, one important skill that you and I can develop as missionaries Is learning to pay attention to the questions that our audiences that we minister to are asking

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Now I first learned this from missiologist tim tenet And tenet encourages us as missionaries to listen to the questions both the non -christians.

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We're reaching out to and Christians that we're ministering to are asking and he says that as we do this

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We'll see recurring questions to which we can relate the good news of the gospel Uh, this is great advice

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And it's also one of the factors that led us to develop the compassionate and faithful learning experience

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There are a lot of questions today in our culture around sexuality and gender And as missionaries to families high school students college students military

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Professionals athletes and more you and I find ourselves on the leading edge of these questions

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And over the past couple years we've had a chance to journey together through the compassionate and faithful learning experience

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And I want to thank you for engaging in this learning experience with us Based on the feedback you've given us.

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It's clear that all of us feel better equipped to navigate lgbt plus questions in a way that's compassionate toward people

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And faithful to the teaching of scripture But we've also encountered some challenges in our journey as well

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I want you to notice something here and I think I was trying to look up. I think this is keith johnson if i'm not mistaken uh who you're listening to who's uh in the

31:43

He's the director of theological development at crew Um, hope i'm not wrong about that.

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The picture seems to line up, but this is a little fuzzy here Anyway, this gentleman here correct me if i'm wrong if someone's from crew in there this gentleman

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Who is in charge of in some capacity theological development at crew? Uh, listen to the words he uses here because I think that there is so much pr uh

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And hr talk really This Idea that it's a learning experience

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What do you gain from using a term like that as opposed to a teaching? well, I think you gain a lot if you're on the if you're on the uh

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On on the hook for it if if it's a learning experience then that means

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It's not something crew necessarily Endorsed it's something that is somewhat distant.

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It is not as proximate to crew It's just a learning experience. Let me give you an example

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If I said i'm going to teach on communism for a class on the cold war

32:48

And then someone said well, I disagree with communism And I said well i'm not teaching it as a way of endorsing communism.

32:55

I am teaching it as a way of informing you about communism you can make your own decision as to whether or not you endorse it or deny it but This is part of a learning experience, right the teaching is not a teaching of I'm not giving a stamp of approval, right?

33:15

it's a teaching where i'm wanting to simply inform you and take you through information that is going to Allow you to draw conclusions and come out the other side a more mature person

33:27

In fact, that's part of a liberal arts education You go through A number of texts and volumes.

33:34

In fact, anyone who does a classical education reads a lot of greco -roman literature It doesn't mean you agree with the greco -roman pantheon of gods or anything, right?

33:43

It's a learning experience so that Framing it as a teaching where you have preston sprinkle positively

33:54

Positively Giving you really really bad information about sexuality

34:03

Framing it that way as a teaching is much different than saying well It is a learning experience that we simply take you through.

34:09

I think that's what's going on here. It's a very odd term to use Uh in response to public criticism a number of us have received questions from ministry partners about crew's approach to sexuality and gender

34:23

And in our highly polarized context these conversations can often be challenging And I want to offer uh, just a little bit of perspective on that uh first I think it's critical for us to have a learning past posture towards questions and criticism

34:44

James reminds us in chapter four that god opposes the proud but he gives grace to the humble

34:51

And it's natural to feel discouraged when we get an email asking us questions

34:56

I know that I have but i've also learned to receive those emails and communications as a gift

35:04

I'm grateful when a partner cares enough to reach out to me And give me a chance to represent a crew's approach to them

35:14

And I often remind myself in these conversations that our partners Personally are wrestling with some of these same kinds of questions in their family.

35:23

Maybe in their church and communities Our team has tried to take a learning posture towards criticism even when it's not communicated to the most gracious way

35:33

And I think one of the things that criticism has done for me is it's really pushed me back into the scriptures to reflect on my

35:39

Understanding of what god has taught us about creation and sin and salvation And I also try to remind myself that one day

35:47

Uh, we're not going to be standing at the judgment seat before critics But before our lord jesus christ and that we want to be faithful to his teaching both in our manner and uh in our message

35:59

Okay, a few comments, uh treadle says that learning experience also removes connotations of authority that teaching has very

36:06

Anti -hierarchical, I think that there's a point to be made there um what you hear and someone confirmed that this is keith johnson what you hear him saying here is

36:17

Essentially, we want to have a learning posture. And so we welcome those who have constructive criticism

36:24

Now I happen to know that is not the case in any of the circumstances

36:30

Uh that I am familiar with which spans probably at least 15 or 16 crew staff over the years

36:39

As well as those outside of crew who have tried to keep crew accountable Even those who have gone way up to the top of at board meetings and have attended board meetings

36:48

Uh this what he's talking about here could not be further from the truth uh from everything that people within crew have told me in fact, um

36:59

Not long ago. Someone from crew actually reached out to me and told me that Um, I don't know

37:05

I can't give too many specifics because they haven't allowed me to give but I think I can speak in generalities here and say that Um, they are hurting from criticism my name being one of the names mentioned and that anyone who would even associate

37:22

In any way, which means even having a conversation with me even having a suspected conversation with me

37:28

They don't even have to have the conversation Uh that gets them in hot water with crew and uh

37:36

It's a very interesting dynamic because i've watched this over the course of years play out It doesn't matter if it's lower level.

37:42

It doesn't matter if it's higher level those who criticize crew's teaching materials

37:49

Uh, or really anything from crew that they've put their stamp of approval on are viewed as enemies

37:57

Immediately, uh, it does not take long. You cannot ask certain questions I think the most recent public example comes from world magazine

38:06

And I think uh, elisa childers had this couple on her show who was they were staff

38:12

At crew and um, I have not had them publicly on the show. I have talked to the husband uh a few times but uh

38:19

It's um, i'm trying to remember their names now Actually, um, I should I should know this it should be at the tip of my tongue actually and i'm apologize that I don't

38:29

Um the mundells, that's right. The mundells uriah and marissa and they were brave to go public

38:34

Um, that is probably the latest Public example, but you can go on my youtube channel and find a number of other interviews

38:42

I've done most of the people I talk to won't do interviews but from staff and they all pretty much say the same thing They're really not able to get that far uh when they have concerns and they get the ring around and it's the hr treatment and so I think that uh

38:58

This gentleman is trying to stave off that kind of criticism and that reputation crew has and saying no

39:03

That's not who we are. We we do accept criticism. We do engage these things Uh, and then at the same time casting some aspersions

39:12

On those like myself who have had I think some valid critiques of some of the things crew has done uh by claiming well, even when they're not nice about it, we want to Listen even uh, and we won't be sitting before critics in the judgment.

39:26

We are going or standing before critics We will be standing before christ Okay, those that's true.

39:32

That's absolutely true. You will be standing before christ Critics aren't the ones that ultimately judge your eternal salvation

39:40

I have my own critics by the way and crew they're critical of me. I'm not going to stand before them but um

39:45

I want you to listen to the way he treats critics uh and and you know versus the way he treats crew right and obviously this is coming from crew, but Crew is open crew is this great organization that is

40:03

Being attacked sometimes by people who are just unfair. They're they're not nice And we're not going to stand before them uh, you know

40:13

If they if critics have something valid to say If there's something crew messed up on if this really wasn't a learning experience

40:20

But it was what it actually was which was a teaching that crew was trying to suppress The knowledge of getting out.

40:27

They don't want their donors even knowing about this teaching um and You know, they didn't even want pastors apparently knowing that this is what they were teaching

40:37

Where does that place crew, you know, they're we're so open to accountability. We're so we're an open book over here

40:43

No, you're not No, that's not how it's this has been operating for since at least 2019

40:49

If not before that so I think there's a lot of deception going on here. I'm just going to call it as I see it

40:55

Our team also tries to have a regular practice of reading people who hold differing views Than crew does to see what we can learn from them

41:03

And I think finally, uh one thing I would love to know who those people are

41:09

Who are the people that they read that have differing views than crew? not in a leftward political direction or social direction and you're not from a theologically questionable direction, but Like for example, are they like what materials are they using?

41:25

Uh from even a christian standpoint do they use? Uh materials that are critical of critical race theory which books then

41:33

Uh, do they use materials from uh, bible expositors like john mccarthur?

41:39

Do they use um, in fact, I would expect them to do that, but I don't know if they do Uh, you know when it comes to cultural things,

41:45

I mean I have to go to doug wilson for that I'm, just really curious like who Who do you look to that you disagree with that you put through learning experiences with?

41:54

Um, because this is another way I think to cushion it to you can get some pressure off yourself, uh by saying well

42:00

Yeah, we paid to produce this material with preston sprinkle And it's just it's a learning experience.

42:06

And by the way, we have you know We have lots of learning experiences where people read things that we don't agree with it's just to learn

42:12

Right. Danny. Aiken tried to do this with southeastern when he was kind of on the hook Uh that well, we just uh, we teach liberation theology, but we're not endorsing it, right?

42:21

We teach all kinds of things we don't agree with Well, okay great. So show me what are the textbooks you use?

42:28

From a very conservative standpoint. Are you you got thomas soul stuff? You after you read, uh, the kendy stuff, you know that kind of thing, right?

42:36

That's what i'm talking about. Like what I don't know of any examples That I found important to ask myself in this process is lord.

42:43

How do you want to form me? Spiritually as a follower of christ, uh through this and and I know that in my life

42:50

I've been very aware of the kind of life that I try to find in what other people think of me

42:56

Rather than in jesus and i've had to bring that to the lord A second you and I need to cultivate what one leader calls

43:06

A view from the balcony balconies are Places that give us a unique vista to see things below us that we might miss

43:18

And i've reached out to a number of pastors Christian leaders and theologians to try to help better understand some of the cultural dynamics shaping our present moment particularly in the church

43:28

And it's been really helpful And one person who's helped me get a view from the balcony is the late tim keller

43:35

I was rereading his book, uh center church He wrote it over a dozen years ago, and he has a section in this book on cultural engagement and Listen to uh, you can read it here with me.

43:46

Listen to what keller says He's talking about some of the challenges in the church today And he says the contemporary american church is pulsating with intramural debates and he gives a long list

43:57

He says when we look on the surface these look like a diverse array of doctrinal disputes

44:03

But more often than not lurking beneath these issues is the question of how christians should relate to the culture around us

44:13

Some believe that the church's message is becoming incomprehensible to outsiders and we should increasingly adapt it to culture

44:20

Others believe the church is already too influenced by culture and we need to be more confrontational toward contemporary societal trends

44:28

Most church leaders find themselves somewhere in the middle They can't agree on where to confront where to adapt as a result

44:35

The church is fragmenting even beyond its old divisions of denominational theological traditions And then this is how he concludes this entire section introducing cultural engagement in fact

44:46

There may be no more divisive issue in the contemporary american church today

44:52

And I remember reading that and thinking keller was prophetic that what divides us from Many of our critics at the end of the day isn't our view of sexuality and gender

45:04

It's our vision for cultural engagement There it is. There it is uh

45:11

Oh man, so the way this whole thing is couched and framed is that Crew is just this open book crew is

45:27

Just waiting for someone to come and share with them Criticism so that they can learn from it.

45:32

And in fact, we We accept all these views where at least we Want people to consider all these views that we don't even agree with And then this is what he does

45:43

Hey, look tim keller made this point that What's really fracturing?

45:49

the united states or The western world I suppose in general and the church in those regions.

45:55

What's really fracturing them is not so much theological but cultural and strategies for cultural engagement, how do we go about engaging with this culture reaching this culture doing this really

46:10

Upstanding thing, right? And so he then wipes away all the criticisms in one fell swoop all these criticisms

46:19

That he wanted to take so seriously to learn from now He just wipes them all away in one fell swoop and says, you know what?

46:26

This is really over This is over something not that important really something superficial

46:33

It's not like it's a theological problem. We have which is the accusation That's the criticism that you have a theological problem

46:42

Especially with the example here, which is the compassionate and faithful teaching. It's not that It's not where so he's already basically saying we're not going to take seriously criticism

46:54

That says we have a theological problem with compassionate and faithful because that's not what we have

46:59

It's a disagreement over cultural engagement. Well, doesn't that sound a lot better? You see red and I see yellow you want to go out there and preach the gospel and you want to hand out tracks and I want to go out there and preach the gospel

47:14

And I want to street preach And someone else might want to do a personal relationship evangelistic endeavor and these are all different ways

47:23

But you know what at the end of the day, aren't we all trying to engage the culture? Not a big deal. Not a great thing.

47:30

It's just that's what's going on here. It's the minimization of the critiques That's what he's trying to do. He's casting aspersions on the critics.

47:37

He's minimizing their critiques by putting them in a different category All the while trying to give you language that makes you think oh, they're so open

47:46

They're so willing to engage if you have a question, you can really go to them

47:51

Those in crew who have had questions you tell me whether that's true. I've never had anyone tell me from crew that they got a

47:58

Response when they tried to share a concern that was anything but suppressing Uh, all right, we gotta keep going here.

48:06

So let's do it And I think when we're at our best in crew, we have what I might call a jesus first approach to culture

48:15

Our lead foot is can I tell you about jesus? Oh my goodness. How do you even argue with this right now?

48:21

Now the critics are arguing against a jesus first approach to culture Man, that I mean that that really puts us in a bad light, right?

48:31

So if you have Problems with crew You have a problem with their cultural engagement and their culture engagement is jesus first So you must have a problem with a jesus first cultural engagement

48:45

That's the I mean he's giving an argument for not listening to critics. Meanwhile saying we listen to critics Can I tell you about how beautiful jesus is why?

48:54

Because we believe the gospel is the power of god to salvation for everyone who believes

49:01

A third and final perspective I want to share Is that going forward? We think it's increasingly important for us to speak in our own theological voice

49:12

We're profoundly grateful for those outside crew who have helped us But it's critical for us going forward to speak from the scriptures in our own voice

49:25

This doesn't mean we'll never use, uh external communicators, but it does mean We want our organizational voice to be clear

49:33

Well with that perspective in mind, I want to talk a little bit about the next chapter of our lgbt plus equipping

49:39

We created the current compassionate and faithful learning experience to provide a way

49:45

At the same time for staff in every division to have the chance to grow and learn Now that we've moved through that process.

49:52

We're actually focused on a relatively small audience of new employees particularly new staff interns and part -time field staff

50:02

And that gives us a lot of options that we didn't have available when we were looking for a scalable solution for the whole organization

50:10

And so our plan going forward is to integrate our lgbt plus equipping into existing developmental venues

50:17

Like the institute of biblical studies, so i'll give you just one example Our plan for new staff

50:24

Is that we would help them grow in navigating lgbt plus questions in the context of the intro to christian theology class

50:32

All of them take this course as a part of their onboarding and i'm excited about that There are several advantages to this approach first This gives us the chance to talk about sexuality and gender

50:44

In the context of all the other major doctrines we share as followers of jesus

50:50

Our understanding of god's good work of creation the devastating effects of the fall The redemptive work of christ on the application of christ's work by the spirit sanctification the church

51:04

Second this also allows us to speak in our own theological voice not depending on outside presenters third

51:11

Um, it gives us an opportunity to have a conversation about sexuality and gender face to face

51:17

And finally, we think this is going to provide a scalable sustainable ongoing way to help equip our staff

51:26

So access to the current, uh compassionate faithful learning experience will end on december 31st

51:32

And we're already in the process of moving forward on the new plan that I described to you with our newest groups of new staff and interns

51:43

Alongside of this we'll continue to think about how we can resource all of us All right, let's we're gonna end there so If this teaching is so bad

51:54

Why not just send it now? But they're not they're going to continue for the next few months. It's going to end at the end of the year.

52:00

Okay? whatever Instead they're going to take the teaching, uh, the lgbtq plus whatever teaching and put it in their intro introductory theology class, which means

52:12

That this isn't just a special thing. They're going to put all the crew staff through this is Actually, I don't even know if compassionate and faithful was all crew staff this is for all crew staff though, uh now and um

52:25

I I think if you read between the lines, you don't even have to do it between the lines. What he's saying is

52:31

We're going to not have preston sprinkle involved in The curriculum development we're going to do our own in -house curriculum development and uh, this is a way of I I I think what's going on here is there's been a lot of criticism crew's lost a lot of money

52:50

They've lost a lot of donors and um One of the criticisms lately has been you're partnering with this preston sprinkle guy

52:58

And so this is a way to distance themselves and say no we're not going to be with him But i'd be curious and i'm sure many of you will to see okay

53:06

What are they going to put in their the intro to theology then? Uh, they're not admitting any wrongdoing.

53:12

They're They're still using the curriculum but Uh for crew staff who are entering crew

53:18

What's that going to look like you're going to have to see I guess because I don't know. Is it going to be the same kind of teaching that's now everyone has to take uh, and it's just it's more hidden because it doesn't have that label on it or is it uh,

53:31

Is it going to be different and they're just never going to admit that they really messed up theologically on this um

53:38

I I think this was apathetic and in I don't know

53:45

Insincere I guess he comes across as insincere But it's a pathetic and weak attempt to deal with this problem.

53:51

They should just be honest We're getting rid of it. We got a lot of pressure. It's theologically bad

53:57

And we are we're sorry. We apologize to crew Um, but nope that that's not going to happen.

54:03

It's our critics are disagreeing with our jesus first cultural engagement principle Oh My oh my oh my all right one last thing.

54:12

Um Let's go to the end here.

54:18

Mark gothier. Who's the president of crew talks about some things. He had talks about criticism

54:25

Uh, there's two clips. I've wanted to play from him has long taken a posture of not responding to criticism and critiques from outside the organization impacting our organizational fund development efforts and our staff's personal mpd efforts

54:39

And the current soup that we swim in And where critiques fly fast and furious are we holding fast to that posture?

54:47

And if so, is there any evidence to suggest? That this is the correct approach

54:53

Or to the contrary. Is there any evidence that suggests we should be more proactive and offensive

54:59

In our responses to outside criticisms in the current visual culture Another question was i'm aware of some staff losing support.

55:07

This is related to this as well as a result of the video done of the staff persons who

55:15

Did an interview with world magazine While i'm grateful for the training and biblical position documents that have been created

55:23

It feels like staff are left to themselves to defend crew's position Often encountering a lack of willingness from the supporting church to dialogue or to respond in any way except with silence

55:35

Can you explain? Senior leadership's next steps in addressing this challenge well

55:42

I don't think i'm going to be able to fully explain it now But I think there will be a time to come where we will get into this a little bit more

55:49

But I do want to say a few things And really what keith shared first of all was super helpful and you'll you'll see

55:58

Some of what i'm going to mention show up in the way. He he talked about how we've engaged externally with people in the midst of The critique and the criticism that we have received

56:12

The second thing I want to say is it just it grieves my heart and all all of us

56:17

As leaders to know how this impacts so many Whether it's losing support or the hurt that you experience or just the frustration

56:28

And the work that it has created for many of you, uh in terms of conversations, etc.

56:35

So I just want to Acknowledge that I know that's that's really really hard And it's very challenging at times to engage on these topics and even to know

56:46

What can I say? What can't I say? So this isn't the end of this conversation, um at all, but I just want to make a few uh a few comments about this first of all our long -standing approach and posture

57:04

Has been to not respond to external criticism and critique publicly and uh

57:12

The reason in part for that is because our ministry we go to where people are

57:20

Regardless of lifestyle regardless of views We're missionaries.

57:26

So we go to share christ and connect with everybody We found that trying to have dialogue publicly

57:36

Really loses the nuance And the sensitivity that we feel is very important To what god has asked us to do

57:46

I will say there is a significant team of people gifted in communication

57:55

And our theological development team that are we're regularly Evaluating is there another approach that we need to have in this context?

58:06

so While we've had this historical practice It doesn't mean that we're not thinking about what is the best way to both communicate our posture and our position

58:20

And that's really what keith was getting at when he said You know a lot of times what we were finding and in this particular topic is really it isn't so much about the theology

58:31

It's not about the position But it's really around top issues related to posture and that's not to say that other people are wrong and bad and Don't have a good posture

58:42

It's just to say that We we hold dearly in our hearts in our practice the calling to communicate the gospel to everybody

58:54

And that puts us in a situation over the years where we do Are open up to criticism and critique and what we've gone through has been it's been significant over the last

59:07

Uh few years, but it's not unusual Historically there have been many times

59:13

Where because of what we're doing to engage with people There has been significant of feedback now

59:22

We think it's super important that we do engage The feedback and keith made some important points by saying number one

59:31

We always want to be people with a posture of humility and we want to learn Our our ministry is relational

59:39

We are incarnational in what we do And what that means and what we found is that the most effective way to engage our critics

59:50

Has been primarily in the context of relationship personal conversations

59:57

And so we've worked really hard To actually be open and available and initiative

01:00:04

Uh have a posture a position of initiation To be able to discuss with people their concerns

01:00:12

And their their critique which is very very important and we can we learn from that and we need to learn from that At the same time our general

01:00:22

Approach to this has been it's been very favorable by and large It helps people to understand what we are trying to do and understand our position but also appreciate

01:00:37

Our posture now i'm not going to say that this always Works Works out for us, but a lot of times it does

01:00:48

The the second thing I want to say about this is we believe in that spirit That we all of us are the best asset we have for communication and connection and I know there's a tension here because We recognize we may not be adequately resourcing you to have those conversations with the people with whom you're you're

01:01:14

Relating with that have concerns or critique and our strategy Has been to provide for you what you need so that you can

01:01:24

Engage appropriately with people So I want to say two things in closing on this

01:01:32

Number one if you need help in responding to questions or concerned about concerns about crew

01:01:39

Please reach out to your supervisor And they can connect connect you with people in our in your specific ministry

01:01:46

Who can best come alongside of you and we always want to want to do that We've also worked with all of our ministry's leadership and our mpd team

01:01:57

To help make sure we've got resources To help you field questions and and obviously they're available.

01:02:05

We're available to partner with you in that Second we are continuing to evaluate if one we need more resourcing and support for all of us and when at our next update

01:02:19

They had the opportunity to share a little bit more about How this is working out for us and what we're seeing in terms of moving forward

01:02:29

But I know there's a lot we could say about that. I just want to say Thanks for the questions

01:02:35

Thanks for your engagement And we're confident the lord is in this he's given us an incredible mission as jesus.

01:02:43

I mean as Keith said we're in jesus first ministry Okay, I think that's the relevant part

01:02:51

Uh, there's a lot of words there and not much help if you're in crew, unfortunately You're not going to be able to hr or pr yourself out of this uh, this is

01:03:03

Basic stuff When it comes to compassionate and faithful teaching It really comes down to do you believe what the bible teaches about human sexuality and gender?

01:03:14

And if you don't believe that or you're you're subverting it in your teaching Then you can't just pr your way out of it by putting a good face on it and saying crew is great and rah rah rah, you can't uh cushion it

01:03:30

Or use a mechanism like we're going to just have relationships and conversations and that's going to solve this

01:03:36

These aren't tools that actually address the root issue and I don't think they're using those tools

01:03:42

I don't know the people I know in crew who have voiced concerns about these things They're they end up getting shunned.

01:03:49

They're not the kind of people that just have Crude tripping all over itself to reach out to them uh in these relational ways, um

01:03:58

Oftentimes when I hear this, I think wine and dine, right? Like I remember, uh, danny aiken. I thought

01:04:03

I think did this somewhat and I know he does this to other people I've know i've know this, uh about southeastern

01:04:09

I can share this uh When he gets criticism, that is one of his go -tos. It's like come on down to southeastern

01:04:17

We'll put you up and we'll treat you well, right? and um, i'm not actually saying that's a very like a bad strategy if someone's

01:04:25

I don't think the critiques are misunderstandings, but let's say someone is misunderstanding you Um, you can say hey, come on get to know us better.

01:04:33

But the thing is you can also put on a show It's easy to do that. In fact, uh Believe it or not

01:04:39

Okay so this is I am not comparing danny aiken or crew or any other christian ministry to the person that i'm about to talk about in the sense of saying that they have uh

01:04:48

Equally, you know their morality is the same or you know, they're they're not the same in the same category at all on on that When it comes to strategy though,

01:04:56

I I just had this thought There's a friend of mine years ago he wanted to go to north korea and i'm like north korea really like That but he showed me this whole like vacation package thing

01:05:07

They have and they pull out the red carpet and they love to apparently Get show americans this side of north korea that you're not gonna see right and Communist countries

01:05:18

I know have done this for a long time. This was um, who was the reporter? Uh who went to? Soviet russia in the 1930s and said i've seen the future.

01:05:27

I know it works And it's because stalin wasn't showing him all the starving people. He's only showing him what he wants the person to see right?

01:05:34

It's easy to manipulate actually in those kinds of situations um if if you control the schedule and the itinerary

01:05:42

Anyway, I haven't seen crew do that kind of thing. I I've never seen them reach out to anyone.

01:05:48

I know who's been critical of them even within the organization So it's it's denial it's disguising things.

01:05:54

Uh, that's how they tend to operate and so uh, it's just odd that um Mark gothier is like saying well, this is who we are as crew right and acting like this is a normal thing

01:06:04

We've always gotten Controversies about our approach and and that it inspires feedback.

01:06:10

Well Yeah, but feedback over you're denying some very basic Uh teachings in scripture that are fundamental

01:06:18

I don't think maybe strategies maybe maybe there are things that crew's done that um

01:06:24

I don't know what the example of that would be i'm trying to even think uh there there's been critiques about the way they do evangelism like it's too formulaic and It's it skips over the law the use of the law i've heard things like that, but Not nothing like this where it's like no you're you're trading your staff members to subvert the biblical teaching on gender and sexuality nothing that basic nothing that intense and Quite frankly,

01:06:53

I have my doubts. I don't have charts in front of me But I would be very curious to see what's happened since 2019 with their giving

01:07:02

I think it's gone way down That's my guess that they've had they've taken a big hit

01:07:08

They're continuing to take in water or they wouldn't be talking about this if they weren't so, you know, what are they going to What are they going to do?

01:07:16

How are they going to navigate this? We're still talking about it. Well, it's been uh Even if you want to gauge it since rosaria butterfield made her statement against crew.

01:07:26

What was that last fall? It's been about a year almost if not about a year. Yeah, I think And you still don't have a way forward on this you're still in conversations about how

01:07:36

If you're a crew staff member, I don't think help is coming guys like You're stuck

01:07:42

Uh, you have someone who can relate to you in all the maternal ways But you don't have someone who's actually willing to take ownership of what they've done and chart a concrete path forward masculinity seems to be gone from crew and I'm, sorry for those who are good staff members still in crew doing good work because you don't deserve this uh, yeah,

01:08:04

I Lots of comments coming in keep bringing them by the way if you have questions, especially i'll look for those but if uh

01:08:12

Have you been supporter of this podcast if you're a patron if you go to worldview conversation forward slash

01:08:17

Or sorry patreon .com forward slash worldview conversation if you're one of the people who supports what

01:08:23

I do um in in prayer or otherwise, uh, yes some of what's happening here

01:08:30

And what's coming to a head is the result of folks like myself and others I think I was actually one of the first I don't want to say i'm the first because I don't know there may have been someone at a lower

01:08:40

You know in crew, I think there were discussions happening. But in 2019, I think I was one of the first guys to start

01:08:47

Exposing what was happening in crew and all it took was I just started watching their videos from their 2019 crew convention and I was shocked

01:08:54

And since then it's just been one fire after another and the crew organization

01:09:01

Does not respond well to even constructive friendly criticism it's

01:09:07

I mean the people who put together the concerned document I don't remember what they called it

01:09:14

Uh theological concern document where it was it was very extensive and they did a good job on it

01:09:20

Uh, a lot of those guys were let go from crew. They're not going to get promotions It's they don't respond well to it

01:09:28

And they're trying to put the word out there that they do and it's just uh I think disingenuous

01:09:35

I really don't care for crew. I'll be honest I've watched them over the course of years hoping they would course correct and stuff and Seeing the way that their leadership reacts.

01:09:43

I just have like next to no respect Uh, and it's a shame because they've done good in the past and there's still some

01:09:49

People doing good work with them in various capacities, but I couldn't in good conscience partner with them.

01:09:55

I'll be honest I couldn't work for them. I couldn't partner for them not when there's other options out there Uh, all right.

01:10:01

Uh, yeah someone asked. Oh, what is this? Okay Is there anything in scripture that ever indicates that posture outweighs position?

01:10:07

I think it says the opposite thoughts Yeah, because you heard mark gothier saying, you know separating posture and position yeah posture is

01:10:16

I think of posture as the Uh, it's kind of like tone, right?

01:10:21

It's the Like if you have an aggressive tone with someone that communicates a lot even if you're saying nice things and a posture

01:10:29

I see is similar to that if you have a defensive posture you can tell so Walking into a situation with a posture

01:10:37

Is also communicating the message the posture is part of the message Okay so I I think of like speak the truth and love like You should have a certain disposition if you're gonna you can say the same thing to someone who's unruly

01:10:52

Or is faint -hearted or is weak, but you're going to possibly take a different posture Which means a different message, too

01:10:58

You could be saying the same theological truth, but the message Changes in the sense that you're going to Be euthetic towards the person who is unruly

01:11:09

You're going to correct them in a way that's more aggressive so it's

01:11:16

It's a It's a different posture Than someone who is weak and needs help so you could say knock it off You got to stop lying, right?

01:11:25

But if there's someone who's humble and says i'm weak and I need help you might approach them with a different posture than you do someone who is unruly and is just Lies and loves to lie and is going to continue lying

01:11:38

Uh, you're saying the same thing you need to stop lying, but you might add some things you might Approach it differently.

01:11:44

You might use a different tone. I see that all as part of the message as well, so um,

01:11:51

I don't know exactly what mark gothier means by that, but And doing a search for posture the original geek not fighting it yet.

01:11:58

Yeah, I don't I don't think the words in scripture this is an english term that we are then imposing on scriptures um

01:12:08

Not not probably the best word to use in that situation I use it when it comes to politics sometimes i'll say

01:12:14

Conservatives take a posture of trying to conserve true and valuable things, right? That's our disposition

01:12:20

That's our default setting that's we walk into situations with that intent generally

01:12:26

But yeah, when it comes to the bible, I don't I don't know. I I don't I I see the concept

01:12:32

I think But uh, yeah, I don't see the word Uh, all right, I haven't talked about the sbc i'm about to get there

01:12:38

I don't have much to say about the sbc. We've been going an hour in 12 minutes. This is going to be a longer podcast so um

01:12:45

Let's just let's just do that. Now. Let's talk about uh, the sbc shall we? So there was an article that uh came out on september 20th.

01:12:54

So now we're going back a little ways It wasn't that long ago, but it feels like Ancient history now, let me see if I can pull it up for you

01:13:02

And I I just think the center for baptist leadership has a lot of good information on this stuff But it's by john whitehead

01:13:08

And the title is liquidating the assets of our sbc fathers to finance the power plays Of the sons and let me just bring you through some of the information

01:13:16

That you will find if you want to read this article Basically, he talks about the creation of a new abuse department in the sbc

01:13:23

So the executive committee met and they've established a new department focused on responding to sexual abuse within the sbc

01:13:31

Following a directive from the 2024 annual meeting now This move marks a shift away from the initial proposal of forming an independent non -profit called the abuse response commission arc

01:13:42

Which faced criticism from potential conflicts of interest and increased legal risks So this is good in one sense if you're rooting for the sbc to remain faithful It's good in the sense that they didn't go with the arc

01:13:54

Which would have been independent, but they are still going to have their own separate Not separate in the sense that it's separate from the sbc.

01:14:01

It's still part of the sbc, but they're going to have their own Department if you will focused on sexual abuse reform so what what does that look like I don't know but Generally, you know, the suspicion is that this is not going to be a good thing for the sbc

01:14:18

Over 12 million has been spent on legal fields fees already related to sexual abuse claims

01:14:23

This includes significant payments to guidepost solutions the consulting firm which conducted the investigation in the sbc's handling of abuse allegations

01:14:33

Despite these expenditures no settlement with victims were mentioned only legal defense costs So uh

01:14:41

People like johnny hunt or david sills are not talking about settling with them. They're going to keep the exorbitant legal defense costs going

01:14:49

As a result of these exorbitant legal defense costs the executive committee has authorized the sale of sbc's office building in nashville

01:14:57

This decision is linked to the need to cover operational and legal expenses This is something like what 38 million.

01:15:04

So I don't remember it's like an over 30 million dollar building And you can't get that back and it's sad to see over the course of just a few years

01:15:12

What's happened in the sbc? they have just run their organization into a

01:15:20

An iceberg and I don't even know this article talks about How they sold their property which was overlooking the golden gate bridge

01:15:27

In san francisco for golden gate seminary and now have this I guess this office building near an airport uh, and you know, sometimes you need to do things like that, but it's just this is

01:15:39

Really what it does is it sends the signal that we are in the decline We are going down the ship's going down fast.

01:15:46

If something's not done quick. They're going to be in real trouble and of course This might be one of the worst parts of the whole thing the executive committee declined to implement full

01:15:54

Financial transparency by not moving forward with 990 level reporting Which would require sbc entities to disclose comprehensive financial information including legal expenditures.

01:16:03

That's terrible They can't keep themselves accountable and it's it's stuff like that that makes you think well

01:16:09

They just don't deserve I guess to keep going. They don't deserve it I don't know what to say. It's just sad.

01:16:15

So that's the sbc Um, I would say yeah, I mean I I know guys like william wolf and guys at center for baptist leadership

01:16:22

I think are gonna want to see some positive Developments and they're gonna they're gonna look at some of this and say well

01:16:29

It's not as bad as it could have been which is I think that's really the That's the positive takeaway is it could have been worse, but it's still going in the bad direction

01:16:36

And I think that it just seems to continue that um every year So I don't see much changing on the sbc front except for what was warned about a few years ago

01:16:48

By not only myself many others warned about this we even within the organization is just coming to fruition and I hate to be right about it, but Here we are

01:16:59

Uh, all right. Well, um, let's talk about the vice presidential debate some I will get to your questions as much as I can at the end um

01:17:08

I don't have any clips to play for you Uh, we've been going long enough as it is, but I do have some thoughts to share with you

01:17:15

I did watch most of it and I thought jd vance did a Great job as far as a debate is concerned and I don't actually consider these debates

01:17:24

In the traditional sense i've done a few formal debates Uh, I did one on capital punishment when

01:17:30

I was in a debate club and it was like a homeschool debate club when I was in high school But we had a coach from a local university and um had a great

01:17:41

You know time doing that I vote I was in favor of capital punishment that's what I had to argue for and um

01:17:47

And then since then i've done a few formal debates. I did one. I did two at suny new paltz Where I debated first an atheist who i'm actually still friends with um, and he's he's a pro trump guy as far as I know right now, it's it's an interesting, uh interesting dynamic and then

01:18:04

I debated a a Young student or a female student on the question of abortion and um

01:18:14

In a formal debate, you generally have opening statements You have rebuttals you have cross -examination

01:18:22

And then you have closing statements and they're all timed. Sometimes you will have questions from the audience, but there's a timekeeper

01:18:29

And that's what a debate is you have a timekeeper essentially These are not debates really in that sense.

01:18:35

They are It's it's a time for the media to scrutinize the candidates And the media is slanted very much towards the democrats.

01:18:43

This was no exception Especially the way this debate started off the questions were so slanted in a leftward framing, uh toward really

01:18:53

Uh, I think in favor of tim walls and against jd vance jd vance handled them masterfully though At one point the moderator tried one of the moderators tries to fact -check jd vance about the migrants in springfield, ohio not being illegal

01:19:09

And jd vance basically fax checks her right right back. They turn off his microphone. It's it's just uh it was

01:19:18

It it was interesting to see how he handled the moderators. I don't know that he could have done a lot better Except on one question.

01:19:25

He's very he's very well spoken He keeps bringing things back to the failures of kamala harris

01:19:32

Um, just really good tim waltz was a mess tim waltz There's one clip that i'm sure is going to be going viral where tim waltz

01:19:39

Is asked an actually hard question. That's like one of the hard questions. He was actually asked from the moderators about why he lied about his being in china, um uh during uh, what do they call it now the um

01:19:55

Why am I blanking on this? I can't remember i'm forgetting the name of uh, the the event that tim waltz said.

01:20:05

Uh, he was in china for Someone helped me in the chat here Uh, so I remember it's on the tip of my tongue here

01:20:12

Uh tinnamon square. That's it. Why did I forget? How could I forget that? By the way, the the tinnamon square photo of that one guy who was resisting the tank

01:20:21

We don't know where he went and stuff. Uh, that is the most shared Uh image in all of world history supposedly anyway cinnamon square

01:20:31

Tim waltz said he was there. They said, you know, why did you say that when basically we fact -checked you you're not you weren't there

01:20:36

And tim waltz had a horrible response it like He just basically admitted. Yeah, I lied that was basically it but he did such a roundabout way of like I grew up in the middle class and i'm trusted by the people who love me and this and that and I just get carried away and i'm a buffoon sometimes and uh, so anyway, it's really bad but jd jd vance was uh, confident mature

01:20:59

I think respectful clear on message

01:21:05

The one time I thought man He really he could have done a lot better. Here's the abortion questions

01:21:11

He eventually took the high ground by calling out what the democrats their position is radical

01:21:16

He eventually did that it took him a while to get there and he really wanted to focus on federalism that The trump administration is going to allow the states to decide what their abortion policy is going to be and It I mean, that's who he's running with that's that I mean he even said himself.

01:21:36

He was surprised at ohio Uh voted against his own perspective on this issue

01:21:41

Which I thought was good that he said that because at least he's admitting look this is I have a perspective on this

01:21:47

Which is more pro -life? yet I have political constraints

01:21:54

Constraints that even affect me in my own home state that don't allow me to push the policies that I want uh in in the most aggressive ways

01:22:04

I have to um I have to take a defensive posture on where how far we've already pushed the needle as pro -life anti -abortion people and I have to Uh, make sure that we solidify those gains

01:22:19

That's basically what I heard him say we're going to solidify the gains made by the trump administration On roe v wade overturning it with the dobbs decision

01:22:29

And and we're not going to go past that uh politically Probably a wise move

01:22:35

I would guess but morally speaking um I think that he could have done a lot better job trying to take the high ground and still

01:22:43

Admitting like tim walls is bringing up all these victims women's names who have been victims of this or that, you know, 12 year old who was uh raped and now she's got to carry this baby and he could have made the point that the reason you do not hear the names of the millions of Children who die as a result of abortion is because they never have a chance to actually get a name.

01:23:06

They are never named And while tim walls pulls up these few examples Uh, there are millions of children who are dead because of murder you if you as soon as you shy away from this being that issue

01:23:22

And it then I think that you you you lose the moral high ground Even if it's an unpopular position to take you have to keep the moral high ground on a political level.

01:23:32

I think You're just john harris's unadulterated thoughts on this particular subject uh

01:23:40

I I do think you you do have political reality And so this is one of the things I wanted to talk about with the political reality thing because i've seen some people

01:23:47

Uh online not not like it when I say that Um, especially people who really want a hardcore anti -abortion agenda, which

01:23:54

I also want. So here's what I have to say about that Jd vance is

01:24:00

I would say a mixture of a lion and a fox if you look at uh

01:24:07

Many political theorists use these two Animals as analogies. I think it started with machiavelli that we talked about foxes and lions

01:24:14

And the democrats typically put up foxes In fact, I can't really think of a democrat candidate who wasn't a fox if they would have nominated someone like kennedy

01:24:25

They would have had a lion on their hands But they don't tend to nominate lions.

01:24:30

They nominate foxes Foxes are sly they see traps coming. They set traps for others.

01:24:36

They're cunning. They know how to gain power and hold on to power They don't necessarily have virtue lions tend to be more virtuous

01:24:43

If they're not virtuous at least they tend to be very open and honest and out there and the way they govern is not through manipulation like a fox but through force

01:24:54

So they threaten and they use force to drive their agenda. Trump is a lion basically

01:25:01

Lions also have a hard time though. Their weakness is they have a hard time seeing traps laid for them by foxes

01:25:07

Which is also trump I think it was wise to have jd vance on the ticket because jd vance has

01:25:14

A unique ability to be both a lion and a fox and machiavelli said that was the combination that you know is useful basically for politics

01:25:25

Jd vance comes across as confident That he's going to hold on to policies that he believes in But at the same time he understands the political reality that he has to deal with And as a result of that he knows where the lines are.

01:25:44

He knows what not to talk about what questions not to answer Directly and where to really hammer the other side

01:25:52

Democrats get into positions of leadership And what they do once they have them is they end up driving their own agenda so they're

01:26:00

They they will even engage in lying, right? They'll tell you what you want to hear kamala harris and some walls are doing this right now on things like fracking and gun rights

01:26:09

They want to run to the right a bit. They want to be perceived as moderates Kamala harris has all these great ideas, which for some reason she can't implement now.

01:26:18

This is all part of trying to outfox the american people

01:26:24

By By by presenting themselves as moderate if they can just gain power

01:26:30

Then all that moderation is going to go out the window and they will push their radical agenda. That's what we've seen

01:26:35

That is the pattern Republicans don't tend to be that way they tend to be lions and they tend to Uh, they they say that they're going these are their policy positions

01:26:47

You know, you oftentimes are unrealistic they get into office And they have to go through negotiation procedures and they don't ever

01:26:55

They hardly ever Are able to accomplish what they set out to do. They're foiled by the foxes um

01:27:03

So the first thing for democrats is power That's the fox's first aim is power power power

01:27:08

If you don't have power, you can't do anything else Your agenda is meaningless all the high and noble goals you have for doing good public policy all of it meaningless

01:27:16

Unless you have one thing you need power So let's try everything we can to get that power once we have power then we worry about that.

01:27:25

That's the democrats That's their approach and it's worked for years and the republicans tend to be more principled and This is what i'm going to do and if it hurts me or not

01:27:35

I'm going to hold on to this and we respect that we admire it, but it gets you to the Oftentimes to the beautiful loser category

01:27:43

I think jd vance and I and he did admit this. I think he is much more pro -life Uh, he said it as much, you know, the voters of ohio disagree with me

01:27:52

Uh, he is a fox though, too He's got that side of him where the the most important thing right now is gain power

01:28:00

If you don't have power, you can't do anything on the pro -life front So what do I expect I expect if trump and vance get into office

01:28:09

That they are going to be pushing the needle in a more pro -life direction I do think that I don't expect you to have to think that or believe that uh,

01:28:16

I I expect though, I think that vance is a fox on this and that Um, it's not just with that issue with other issues, too.

01:28:25

I think for example, they asked him, you know How are you going to deport all these? You know the people that are here illegally and he gave kind of a roundabout answer.

01:28:34

Well, we're going to start with Criminals and then we're going to change the incentives so that uh migrants aren't undercutting the american people

01:28:44

So Trump's talked about the greatest deportation in history and all of this Vance is a fox trump is more lion.

01:28:51

Trump is going to talk that way because that's what he's that's the goal He's shooting for that's what he's going to do and he's also a business guy.

01:28:57

So you You create goals. That's just seem Uh that move the needle in your direction you try to shift the overton window

01:29:05

And then when someone comes to the negotiating table you moderate That's how trump has always operated um

01:29:13

And sometimes a fox can use that strategy, but I think in trump's arsenal. That's like his one trick That's that's what he always does

01:29:20

Vance, I think is more cunning in a good way. Like he's more prudent. We'll put it that way. He's more prudent And I think on an issue like that He's not going to come out and say something like that that will probably cost them some votes

01:29:31

But he will try to address the problems that people can relate to in their own life and look he's dealing with a population uh, that is um

01:29:40

A much of the population is very ignorant. Much of the population also is evil and selfish and You have unfortunately in a democratic system.

01:29:51

You have to appeal to that To in order to get elected in order to get power You have to somehow convince enough of those people to vote for you this is why democracies and people have a lot of Reservations about it and people are questioning it more and more if you have a public

01:30:06

That is not virtuous. How do you get virtuous leaders? How do you get virtue? The whole thing eventually breaks down.

01:30:12

You have to have a virtuous public for democracy to work and we don't have that so I think under the circumstances

01:30:22

Everything that vance is dealing with I say he did a good job and I i'm not going to kick the guy when he's down I I voiced my

01:30:29

Disagreement with not taking the moral high ground sooner on the abortion question because if this is murder, we should treat it like that But um,

01:30:37

I think overall vance did a pretty good job Given the circumstances that uh, he's in so i'll take any comments on this

01:30:45

And we'll go from there Uh, all right. Yes. Thank you. Dr. Bob tiananmen square.

01:30:51

I don't know why for I don't know. Sometimes I just maybe i'm getting older. Maybe i'm having biden moments.

01:30:57

Wouldn't that be bad? I need to get more of the uh, chuck norris's Drink mix because uh, it seems seems to help with the memory, you know

01:31:06

But tiananmen square man, that's one of the most pivotal in chinese history that is uh

01:31:12

I I know someone actually from uh, china I was talking to them about this and it's just one of those things that stands out in their history like that that one time where there were cameras and you know, people kind of whisper about it and but it's it's uh,

01:31:27

It's like erased from the official histories and stuff. They don't even talk about it, but It's it's was such a big event people

01:31:33

Uh people still know about it uh, let's see

01:31:40

Someone says an act blue ad came up asking for kamala donations on this youtube channel

01:31:45

That's great because they're just wasting their ad money. No one's gonna No one's gonna uh donate who's a listener of this show uh

01:31:56

Vance's closing statement was exceptional that he actually said whether you vote for me or tim I want you to succeed or something to that effect is a 100 class act move.

01:32:05

I loved it. I loved it That that was really good Trump, uh did that as well to be fair.

01:32:14

He said he was going to lock her up. I think we're talking about hillary he said um

01:32:20

Mexico was going to pay for the wall and it would be huge That didn't happen either. Yeah, there were things in the trump administration that didn't happen

01:32:26

I was surprised he was able to get as much done as he did get done Um, I think jd will help uh, president trump surround himself with better people.

01:32:34

Yes 100 Jd has more horsepower than walls.

01:32:40

Yes, I believe so I'm disappointed your mustache has disappeared My wife isn't

01:32:48

That's why it's disappeared. My wife is not disappointed by that Uh, I had one day and one afternoon where I had the handlebar

01:32:56

That's why you have to come to the men's retreat that's the only time you're going to see it um It's sleep when your baby is sleeping through the night consistently your memory will improve

01:33:08

You know what? She's actually doing pretty good I don't know if I can use that as an excuse, but you are right I have i'm actually still catching up on sleep from uh the weekend

01:33:16

Uh, you just can't on a men's retreat, you know, you get a couple nights where it's like three hours a night or something

01:33:22

It's just you're staying up late. You're getting up early. It's just how it is just how it is Did you hear jd hall has been vindicated from false charges

01:33:30

I did Uh, there's an article at protestia I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing, but I talked to david moral about this a few days ago actually and i'm really glad that protestia, you know an organization that Is unlike crew able to admit when they're wrong about something which

01:33:47

I really appreciate Why are so many christians refusing to vote for any candidate harry kromer asks because pro -life or pro -choice

01:33:56

Um be okay. Sorry because both are pro -choice yet There are demonstrable differences between the candidates.

01:34:03

Is it a sin to not vote james four seven? uh Is it a sin to not vote?

01:34:08

It could be it could be Um, I hesitate to say yes 100. I mean I can think of scenarios where it's impossible, right?

01:34:15

You would have every intention of voting and you got sick that day or you couldn't you know, I don't know a blizzard came, uh

01:34:22

What happened in north carolina happened? I don't know what's going to happen in western north carolina Are they even going to be able to vote?

01:34:27

Is this going to throw the state to the democrats or is this going to be good for trump? I don't really know but uh so when you have the opportunity to vote to Even evil fathers give their children fish

01:34:41

Unbelievers take care of their kids. You're worse than one if you don't I think that this is part of that whole mechanism

01:34:48

God's given you an ability to provide or at least to protect your children so yes, um

01:34:56

That's I think it's part of your civic responsibility If you have the opportunity to do it absolutely, uh you know as far as um

01:35:08

As far as the they're both pro -choice I've talked about this before. I don't want to beat a dead horse on the podcast, but Uh, there are two things

01:35:17

I think to remember the first is yes, there's a lot of other issues This isn't the only one there's issues that will directly affect your children who are born in this world

01:35:26

And you need to think of those issues as well uh, the second thing though is uh

01:35:32

Trump is still significantly better than a kamala harris administration

01:35:38

Even if you're just looking at federalism and trump saying i'll leave it up to the states that gives you latitude on the state level to work

01:35:45

Whereas for kamala harris? She is going to do everything she possibly can through executive order

01:35:51

Uh, and biden's already has done some of this and also through the legislative process to ensure that They can codify on the national level roe v wade that alone

01:36:01

Is a big difference between the two on the life issue. There are other differences, too you may see

01:36:09

Mexico city policy and things like that come back under trump uh Pastor edwin ramirez.

01:36:15

Hey pastor edwin edwin ramirez spoke at our men's retreat, by the way My jets lost since you had that aaron rogers handlebar mustache

01:36:23

I say keep it off john Sorry edwin, sorry,

01:36:28

I didn't mean to make the jets lose um Uh rocket man also put uh, james 417 whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it for him

01:36:38

It is sin. Well, absolutely. Yeah, if you know, it's the right thing to vote and you refuse to do it That's a no -brainer. Of course, that's sin

01:36:44

Even more important than voting is praying for america praying that god will give us rulers who will allow us to live peaceful lives

01:36:50

And proclaim the gospel agreed Yeah, both of those things Were commanded directly to pray for those in earthly authority under so that we can leave peaceful and quiet lives

01:37:01

And that's actually a very good thing To live a peaceful and quiet life. I want that for my children

01:37:08

Sadly, I don't know that they're going to get that but that is what I aim for and that's part of the reason Uh that you get involved in political things.

01:37:14

That's why I do this podcast in part So with that hope that was helpful, uh more coming lord willing later this week.