News Roundup: Cru, SBC, & VP Debate

We are live now on the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We have a lot to get to today. I wanna give you an update though before we get into the topics. We're gonna talk about the SBC, we're gonna talk about crew, we're gonna talk about the VP presidential debate last night and I did watch it, most of it, probably 90 of it.

I missed a little part of the end, but I don't think it was that significant. So I'll give you my general impression and then some of the things being discussed today on X. There's so much, I've saved a lot of things to talk about and because of the news cycle and how intense it's been and how short it's been, there's a lot of stuff I've just, I pushed off and said, I'm not gonna talk about it because there's more important things.

And so if you have questions, this is what I wanted to say. If you have questions or you want me to talk about something you don't hear me talking about that you think is important during the course of this podcast, let me know.

You can do that on YouTube, you can do that on X, you can do that on Facebook, in the live chat sections and I will try to address it because there's a lot of things I've thought through, but like I said, with everything going on and with time constraints, we can only handle so much and I think that's a scale issue with humans.

We operate on a scale that cannot conceive of all the things, especially international news, but let alone national news, let alone the news in our particular Christian groups or social groups or local groups.

We just, we have to make decisions as to what we're going to actually talk about. So Ray says, hello from Albuquerque. Hey, Ray. Jimmy Starfish says, John is the apologist we need, not the one we deserve.

I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means, Jamie. I hope it's a good thing, but am I an apologist? I don't really think of myself that way, but you know the thing is, whenever anyone asks me what I do, I always have a hard time.

I don't know what to say. I was in Alaska once a few years ago and someone asked me that on a tour bus. We were in Denali National Park. He said, what do you do for a living? And I said, I talk about religion and politics and he turned right around and walked the other direction and I thought, well, maybe that's not the intro I should give.

Maybe that's not my opening, but people say, I appreciate your ministry and I don't correct people when they say that. I know it ministered to them. So what am I gonna say? But I don't consider it a ministry as in I don't look at what we do on this podcast or what I do in my books or even the speaking, whether it's in churches or at political events.

I don't view it as ministry in the sense of like official ministry, right? It's not a 501C3 and I'm not the extension of a particular church, but in some ways, I guess I am, right? I am a member of my church.

I am accountable to my church. I do talk about a lot of theology. So TrueScript is certainly a ministry, but the Conversations That Matter podcast and the things I do, a lot of it is just things I think are needed, things that often I don't see being said that I think this should be said.

And it's a, I think I've described it before in the podcast. It really is, it's not a multivitamin, but it is a supplement. And that's what I intend the podcast to be. And that's what it has been. So anyway, let me talk about real quick what I was gonna talk about, which is the retreat last weekend.

Many of you prayed for it. I appreciate that. We had a great time with a great bunch of guys. And this actually was an extension of the Ministry of Grace Bible Church where I attend and also TrueScript.

And I spoke on Sunday morning. I was also part of a panel Saturday night. I had a few guys, by the way, I wanted to address this real quick. The videos aren't out yet, but they should be coming out, I would think in the next few weeks.

We had a professional actually come and record everything rather than relying on me and whether I forget to take the lens cap off and that kind of thing. And so it should be really good, high quality stuff.

TrueScript's gonna put it out. But on, was it Saturday night? We had a panel. And I'm one of these guys, I have a hard time hiding my emotions, all right? Like if I'm disturbed about something, hopefully I'm getting better at this, not in a deceptive way, but just in a, like sometimes like you don't wanna eat broccoli at someone's house, right?

And then have a look on your face, right? By the way, some broccoli is okay, but sometimes I'm not a big like broccoli guy, right? Although I've had some good versions of broccoli, but if it's something I don't like, let's say it was something I really don't like, spinach.

I don't like spinach. I don't know what it is, guys. I know it made Popeye strong, I just don't like it. You don't wanna have like a nasty look on your face, right? I'm one of those guys that has a hard time.

When I was dating my wife, I remember they had mussels, right? And I'm not a big mussels guy, as far as the seafood mussels. And that's all they had. It was like mussels and noodles. And I went over there for dinner and man, I was trying.

I was trying so hard, but that's just who I am. It's written on my face. And so Saturday night, it was, it doesn't matter, the specifics don't matter, but I had a piece of news that really just bothered me about a ministry that I considered to be mostly a good ministry, positive force for good and that kind of thing.

And I got some bad news right before the panel. And I just thought, man, I can't, my mind was somewhere else a little bit. And I think some people noticed that. And the next morning, I had a chance to think about it all night.

And the next morning is when I gave my talk and it very much influenced what I said. So I'm excited for that to come out because I think we all, it's not just me, but I think we all have this tendency, it's human nature, right, to get discouraged at times.

But in the situation we're in now, where you have ministries, often ministries we thought were solid, showing their true colors, showing that there's compromise, showing that there were attempts to suppress information that should have been out there that would have brought accountability, those kinds of things I expect more and more because of the work that I do.

But I got a piece of information that just threw me for a loop a little bit. And that happens, that happens to all of us. And I just, I really think I've been writing on this, I've been thinking about this, that new institutions do need to form, but they can't be the same as the institutions that we had.

They can't have the managerial elitism in there. They're going to have elites, elites are inescapable. You're going to have people who are influential that people see as an example, we need that. But what I mean by managerial elites and managerial elitism is, we don't want people who are loyal to their own managerial class at the expense of those that they should be serving.

We need new metrics to determine whether or not someone is actually qualified to be in positions of influence and management. And it can't be simply because you went to a certain school or you ran in the same crowd, or you have this recommendation from someone who was respected from managerial elite institutions.

It's going to have to be something more new. And it's something a lot of us are thinking about and writing about, and it's at a time when the internet and AI is also rising in influence. And so there's many working parts to this, but it's going to have to be based on something older than this weird managerial elite moment we're in.

It's going to have to be based on virtue. And that's what I talked about quite a bit and contrasting neo-evangelicalism and their willingness to syncretize with worldly philosophies in order to gain supposed influence with the actual pursuit of real influence and real power.

And that doesn't come with a compromise that syncretizes. You can't do that and gain influence. There's going to be compromises in a political sense, but they can't be compromising ones where you infiltrate yourselves with the thinking of the world.

That's not going to happen. That can't happen. That's what's been happening for years. Taking business principles from the secular world that are mostly about manipulation, taking psychology, taking social justice, activism, ideas, and then just fusing them with Christianity.

That's what we've been living in for I think a lot longer than most of us know. And that's one of the reasons we did the retreat and we're doing other events through TrueScript. We want to raise up men, some men you've never heard of, but you need to, because these men aren't the managerial elites that are riding the conference circuit that you don't know who they actually are.

They're not the Steve Lawson types. They're people who are accountable in their local churches who aren't going from church to church, messing the churches up. I don't know how many people reached out to me, by the way, after the Steve Lawson thing.

And we're like, oh yeah, I could see that. Here's a story of him losing his temper. Multiple stories like that. Or here's a story of, have you seen all the churches that he's gone through and how kind of, he's just poisoned to a church.

He goes into these churches, it doesn't work out. He pops from church to church. He never really wanted a pastor. He just wanted to preach. I'm thinking, man, it'd be really nice if some of that stuff had come out before this scandal, but that's not what we want.

We don't want someone who's so distant and so on high and so shielded in the green room, cushioned from everyone that you only get this image of them when they're on a panel or at the pulpit or in front of the camera.

We want people that are accessible, who have accountability in their local lives, who people actually know. They don't disappear after they preach. They're with the people. In all kinds of circumstances.

And doesn't mean they have the scale to be with everyone who they ministered to on a national or international level. I'm saying in their local churches, their congregations. These are known people. You know who their families are.

They don't keep secrets. They're not the kind of people to just have this one side of them. And that's why we do these retreats in part, because we don't have a green room. You're gonna be with the speakers.

I'm gonna try to bring to you speakers. And we had Richard Bargess, who's a great headline speaker, who he is this kind of guy who is, I think, faithful. And my dad's known him for years, but he's a family man.

He doesn't care about money. He's just like all the things that you want. That's the kind of guy he is. And those are the kinds of guys that I try to invite to have come, because they're men of virtue.

And that's what we're doing with True Script. That's what I'm doing. And that's what we did over the weekend. We had a wonderful time. A lot of guys. We had 70 guys out in the middle of the Adirondack Mountains.

Next year, I think we're gonna go back to adding another day, only it's gonna be a day for fellowship, relaxing, being in the mountains, because there's fishing, there's hiking, there's rock climbing.

There's all kinds of things to do up there. And when you only have one afternoon, it feels short. Now, that's what a lot of guys told me. So we're gonna be announcing for next year. We're gonna have an extra day, I think.

But anyway, I'm feeling good. When I got the news that I got that kind of distracted me on that panel and that evening, I've kind of worked through it. And I'm just, I'm at the point where I'm like, you know what, the Lord is doing a work.

The Lord is, we can trust his sovereignty. He's going to expose what's happening in secret, in ministries that you might've even trusted sometimes, but these ministries had compromise in them. You need to know, I think, when that happens.

I don't mean the graphic details of everything. I don't need to know exactly what, in every way, Steve Lawson was doing with this young lady, but to give that one example. But you need to know that when the people that you look up to and trust, if there are major character flaws that people around them notice and don't say anything about, those are the kinds of things that are necessary to, I think, be exposed so that they can be held accountable.

They shouldn't be examples to anyone if they are not qualified. If they don't meet the qualifications in scripture for being an elder, maybe I'm strict, but I say no bueno, you're done, man. That's conference circuit stuff.

There's elevation beyond the local church. First of all, that's not a great idea anyway, but that's how it's really, I think, spun and presented. Even for people who are all about the local church, they act that way.

How more so, if you're in that level of influence, do you need to have character, virtue? You need to match, at the very least, those qualifications. All right, so I've spent the first 13 minutes talking, I guess, about myself on the weekend, but hopefully that's a valuable update for some of you.

We need to jump into stuff because there's a lot to get into today. And Ray asked, Christian discernment ministry? I guess, yeah, you could say some of what I, I mean, I'm gonna talk about politics too today, so we're gonna get into some of that.

Jenna Cole says, Vance. Yes, yes, we all, not all of us, not all of us, many of us, many are saying they like Vance. Okay, let's talk about crew first because that might be the longest segment in this whole entire podcast, and that's where I wanna get started.

So I just wanna say Gwen Smith, you're gonna see Gwen Smith as the person who is hosting this particular, I don't know what you even call it, meeting? It's a Zoom meeting, it's an all-crew Zoom meeting.

And this happened, I think, last Friday. That's why someone else recorded it for me. It's, the quality's not the greatest, but you'll be able to hear, at least. And Gwen Smith, for those who don't know, is the U .S. National Director of Oneness and Diversity.

So it's interesting to me that she, if someone, you might remember from Crew 19, it was her and her husband who were on a panel or a teaching seminar and a breakout session, and there was a older lady, I think it was, who said, hey, look, I'm being told I have white privilege.

I look through my ancestry, I don't even see any slaveholders in my ancestry, and she's practically crying. What can I do, and why am I being accused of this? And I remember the Smiths basically said, well, too bad, you got white privilege.

That Gwen Smith is hosting this meeting. And I see that as somewhat symbolic or interesting that they're giving her that position in a meeting like this, because I think it sends a message that this is important to Crew, that this isn't going away.

The oneness and diversity stuff, the social justice stuff you don't like in Crew, it's not gonna go anywhere. Those people are still there, and this is evidence of that. And so they do talk about a number of things.

I don't wanna get into all of it, but I will show you a few things first. There's, this is not a major, major thing compared to what we're gonna talk about, but there is this section on the diaspora. And I thought it was interesting because it wasn't defined initially, but then it was.

And I thought, wow, this is an interesting way to talk about immigrants, migrants, people from other places that are new to the United States. It used to be just a few years ago, this would be under the banner of diversity.

This is diverse ministry, or this is even couched in terms of racial reconciliation. And this is part of Revelation 7 ministry where the body of Christ is going to look different. And usually you'd be beaten over the head if you were a white guy for your racism, if you objected, let's say, to ministry funds and being totally rerouted to these endeavors and people being guilted into having to take this posture of just listening.

They can't even engage in a common ground of biblical interpretation because there's these superior perspectives from these diverse people groups. You know, everything I'm talking about, this was the D-E-I-C-R-T stuff.

Well, I think that it's like a PR person like was determining all the language in this particular, well, really all the presentations. And this one's no exception. So let's talk about this first. This is, see if I put some timestamps down.

We're gonna talk a little bit about, I guess, this diaspora.

And what can we change in that? So that's where we're at right now. We're very much in the midst of it, of beginning that phase two. So with that, I'm sure there's a lot of questions in that, but would be happy to answer those that I know now, but I would love to pass it to Angela because as Gwen mentioned, she's gonna give us an update on the diaspora working group.

Thanks, Amanda. I appreciate that. So I'm Angela Conejian and I'm Chief of Staff with US Digital Strategies, live in Orlando, Florida. And I'm gonna be giving you an update on the working group's purpose, our members, and a little bit more about the vision and background of the project.

So in a few ways, we really served as an extension of the US field team, led by Jake,.

Excuse me,.

Abraham from Crew City. So with one of the US field team's common strategic priorities being that of reaching the diaspora, we really were asked to build a strategic roadmap that collectively builds movements in the diasporic communities in the United States.

So as a group, we've been calling it, we've been calling our proposal, when build and send in, among, and through the diaspora. Our working group members were people from different parts of the ministry that have been serving in or are a part of the diaspora community.

And I learned a lot from working alongside those leaders. So we had leaders from Citi, from Athletes in Action, from Family Life, from Campus, US Capacity, and Jesus Film. So we met as a group of eight and we really took into consideration not only our audiences, but also our practitioners and the support structure that are out there and that other people have utilized in ministry related to ministry in, among, and through the diaspora.

So that's what we've been calling it, when build and send in, among, and through the diaspora. Those are a lot of prepositions. I'll tell you more about it. As I was talking with Angelina from Jesus Film, who also serves on the project, one of the things she observed is we really spent around 50 hours of strategic planning, brainstorming, analysis, and proposal development.

And as we did that, we compiled a proposal and made a presentation around a strategic roadmap for ministry through and among diaspora people. So you might be asking yourself, when you think about the vision of diaspora ministry, what is that?

So we've been really laser focused on developing a great commission ministry, philosophy, framework, and strategy that paves the way for impactful movements in diaspora communities. So that doesn't just mean us showing up and doing all the work.

Really, we're acknowledging that diaspora ministry is great commission ministry. The Lord has been at work in, among, and through diaspora communities well before crews started doing any work amongst those communities.

So our group spent a lot of time reflecting on Matthew 28, 18 through 20, which we all know. And Jesus came and said to them, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I'm with you always to the end of the age.

So I read that and spent some time on that passage because we spent a lot of time reflecting on that. This is about making disciples in, among, and through diaspora communities. So it's an invitation of belonging to a community of transformation and growth and to the likeness of Christ as we make disciples.

And we don't just make disciples amongst ourselves. We cross cultures and we minister to those around us. And God is really a God who is on the move. That was a big thing that we talked about. Dr. Sam George is someone who talks a lot about that, that God has built his kingdom through the dispersion of people.

So our group focused a lot on what does it look like to nurture cross-cultural relationships, identifying shared narratives within the diaspora and mutual resourcing that we can take action hand-in-hand to holistically help fulfill the Great Commission.

Some people warn the seats and hear stories but do nothing about it, but Jesus is on the move. He is still walking on water, calling people out of the desert to be ambassadors of his kingdom. One of the things that compels us in ministry is other people brought the gospel to us.

They cross cultures. And really Jesus is a great culture crosser and that brought a lot of perspective to our work as we thought about the background of this project. God has always spread his kingdom through people crossing cultures.

And so out of that gratitude that we have for others crossing cultures, we wanna cross cultures to share the gospel. So what is the diaspora? It's the spread and dispersion of people from their original homeland.

The diaspora is made up of both first and second generation people. And it's a part of all of our stories. So I was saying the gospel came to us through other dispersed people. And as those people cross cultures and others cross cultures to bring the gospel to us, the gospel has reached the ends of earth.

And so we wanna be people who are recognizing that we're privileged to join in God's building of his kingdom in the ways that he's been at work throughout history. So every hour over 300...

Okay, I'm gonna stop right there. So there's so many questions. What do I think about this? I don't actually know exactly what I think about it because I don't know exactly what's going on in crew. It's interesting though, you hear this word, it's a buzzword.

You'll hear it like the Lusanne Covenant has a statement about this. There's some other ministries that talk about this, but it's not a word that you hear used a lot. And if this is the way, according to the speaker here, that God is already working, that this is part of a continuation of something he already is doing, then I guess it begs the question, why specifically have a different sector in your organization devoted to it?

Like if this is just the way God moves, then this should just be normal ministry, not a special thing that you have to have a special committee for. But I think it is something special. It is something different.

And ignoring the taking out of context, theological concepts there, like Jesus crossing cultural boundaries as if he's part of a diaspora coming to earth, that's really strange. That's a, frankly, that's odd.

And I wouldn't trust someone to teach the Bible if that's the kind of thing they're teaching. That's clearly not related to what she's talking about, what Angela's talking about here. Jesus left, this was leaving his throne in heaven, leaving his place with the Father, not suspending, obviously, his attributes as the second person of the Trinity.

This is why there's a mystery to the hypostatic union, but becoming a man, entering humanity in order to save humanity, specifically entering a Jewish context. Now, that is not the same as people moving from Mexico to the United States.

That's not the same as someone coming from Angola to a Western country, right? That is a much more profound theological concept. And to compare them is, frankly, somewhat insulting, to be honest. It reduces, I think, what Christ actually did.

And it's not something we can relate to on the level of immigration. But that's really what is being talked about here, is immigration. And this is a moment in the United States when we have a lot of immigration going on, and some of it is illegal.

And so, Crewe, it doesn't surprise me Crewe would be engaged in something like this. And I don't have a problem, actually, at all. In fact, I think Christians should be, Christian ministry should be spreading the gospel and making disciples of everyone, including those who are coming to Western countries, the United States in particular here, from other places.

That may mean that you end up, if that's a priority, you end up hiring people who speak their language and that kind of thing. But I think because of the experience we've had over the last few years, there's gonna be a natural skepticism and wondering what exactly is going on here.

This is very vague in general, but what are the specific plan proposals for reaching these people, these different people? Is this going to be similar to the DEI stuff that we've seen in Crewe before?

Is this going to be a, where we have to change all our perspectives around and reroute funds going to other ministries to do this thing over here? How successful is it going to be? Is it going to end up having a political edge that reinforces these people, even if they're illegal, must stay in the United States, just like Sandra Van Opstel talked about in their 2019 Crewe convention?

I don't know. I don't know exactly what this is, but I'm just putting it out there that this is a potential place. If I was gonna be looking in Crewe to see, hey, where's the social justice stuff still at?

Because I know it's still there. Obviously, they've won this in diversity still. And I just talked a few weeks ago about how Family Life had just put out this basically CRT-infused directive. But if you're still looking for other places, and this is how oftentimes the left acts and operates, they will change terms, they will switch departments, they will eliminate one group and have another group.

That's where I would be looking. That's one of the places I would be keeping an eye out to see if that kind of stuff reemerges. That's just wisdom, hopefully, that I'm giving you. If you are in Crewe, just keep your eyes open.

Yeah, Humpty Toast says, is Diaspora illegal aliens?

That's the question.

That's one of the questions I have. I think so. I think they probably would fit into that. They need a translator in order to understand what she is getting at. There are a lot of words, but I don't think she said much with them.

Well, that's the whole thing. That's this whole entire thing. And I'm about to show you some other clips that are much more significant that will also give you a lot of words, but I don't know that there's much being said.

It's a frustration I have sometimes when I play clips, because I'm like, man, I gotta play this whole thing for people to understand what you could have said in maybe a sentence or two. But let's keep going here.

I want to share with you, this is the real reason that I wanted to talk about this. I think we're gonna go here. Let's see here. Where do I want to start? All right, we'll start here. This is the Theological Development Department talking about the Compassionate and Faithful Curriculum, which as you know, if you listen to this podcast, I did a long podcast on it, is a curriculum that is very influenced by Preston Sprinkle, which is very subversive to Christian teaching on sexuality.

And you can go back and watch the podcast I did. Well, here's what they're saying about it. And they give a reaction to some of the critiques that they've received.

Thank you, Glenn, you're kind. I apologize for my voice. I'm a victim of the COVID resurgence day four here, but looking forward to visiting here for a few minutes. One important skill that you and I can develop as missionaries is learning to pay attention to the questions that our audiences that we minister to are asking.

Now, I first learned this from missiologist Tim Tennant. And Tennant encourages us as missionaries to listen to the questions, both the non-Christians we're reaching out to and Christians that we're ministering to are asking.

And he says that as we do this, we'll see recurring questions to which we can relate the good news of the gospel. This is great advice. And it's also one of the factors that led us to develop the compassionate and faithful learning experience.

There are a lot of questions today in our culture around sexuality and gender. And as missionaries to families, high school students, college students, military, professionals, athletes, and more, you and I find ourselves on the leading edge of these questions.

And over the past couple of years, we've had a chance to journey together through the compassionate and faithful learning experience. And I wanna thank you for engaging in this learning experience with us.

Based on the feedback you've given us, it's clear that all of us feel better equipped to navigate LGBT plus questions in a way that's compassionate toward people and faithful to the teaching of scripture.

But we've also encountered some challenges in our journey as well.

I want you to notice something here. And I think I was trying to look up, I think this is Keith Johnson, if I'm not mistaken, who you're listening to, who's in the, he's the director of theological development at Crew.

Hope I'm not wrong about that. The picture seems to line up, but it is a little fuzzy here. Anyway, this gentleman here, correct me if I'm wrong, if someone's from Crew in there, this gentleman who is in charge of, in some capacity, theological development at Crew, listen to the words he uses here, because I think that there is so much PR and HR talk, really.

This idea that it's a learning experience, what do you gain from using a term like that as opposed to a teaching? Well, I think you gain a lot if you're on the hook for it. If it's a learning experience, then that means it's not something Crew necessarily endorsed.

It's something that is somewhat distant. It is not as proximate to Crew. It's just a learning experience. Let me give you an example. If I said, I'm going to teach on communism for a class on the Cold War, and then someone said, well, I disagree with communism.

And I said, well, I'm not teaching it as a way of endorsing communism. I am teaching it as a way of informing you about communism. You can make your own decision as to whether or not you endorse it or deny it, but this is part of a learning experience.

The teaching is not a teaching of, I'm not giving a stamp of approval. It's a teaching where I'm wanting to simply inform you and take you through information that is going to allow you to draw conclusions and come out the other side a more mature person.

In fact, that's part of a liberal arts education. You go through a number of texts and volumes. In fact, anyone who does a classical education reads a lot of Greco-Roman literature. It doesn't mean you agree with the Greco-Roman pantheon of gods or anything, right?

It's a learning experience. So framing it as a teaching where you have Preston Sprinkle positively giving you really, really bad information about sexuality, sexuality, framing it that way as a teaching is much different than saying, well, it is a learning experience that we simply take you through.

I think that's what's going on here. It's a very odd term to use.

In response to public criticism, a number of us have received questions from ministry partners about Cruz's approach to sexuality and gender. And in our highly polarized context, these conversations can often be challenging.

And I will offer just a little bit of perspective on that. First, I think it's critical for us to have a learning posture towards questions and criticism. James reminds us in chapter four that God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.

And it's natural to feel discouraged when we get an email asking us questions. I know that I have, but I've also learned to receive those emails and communications as a gift. I'm grateful when a partner cares enough to reach out to me and give me a chance to represent Cruz's approach to them.

And I often remind myself in these conversations that our partners personally are wrestling with some of these same kinds of questions in their family, maybe in their church and communities. Our team has tried to take a learning posture towards criticism, even when it's not communicated in the most gracious way.

And I think one of the things that criticism has done for me is it's really pushed me back into the scriptures to reflect on my understanding of what God has taught us about creation and sin and salvation.

And I also try to remind myself that one day we're not gonna be standing at the judgment seat before critics, but before our Lord Jesus Christ, and that we wanna be faithful to his teaching, both in our manner and in our message.

Okay, a few comments. Trudle says that learning experience also removes connotations of authority that teaching has, very anti-hierarchical. And I think that there's a point to be made there. What you hear, and someone confirmed that this is Keith Johnson, what you hear him saying here is, essentially, we want to have a learning posture, and so we welcome those who have constructive criticism.

Now, I happen to know that is not the case in any of the circumstances that I am familiar with, which spans probably at least 15 or 16 crew staff over the years, as well as those outside of crew who have tried to keep crew accountable, even those who have gone way up to the top of at board meetings and have attended board meetings.

What he's talking about here could not be further from the truth, from everything that people within crew have told me. In fact, not long ago, someone from crew actually reached out to me and told me that, I don't know, I can't give too many specifics because they haven't allowed me to give, but I think I can speak in generalities here and say that they are hurting from criticism, my name being one of the names mentioned, and that anyone who would even associate in any way, which means even having a conversation with me, even having a suspected conversation with me, they don't even have to have the conversation, that gets them in hot water with crew.

And it's a very interesting dynamic because I've watched this over the course of years play out. It doesn't matter if it's lower level, it doesn't matter if it's higher level, those who criticize crew's teaching materials or really anything from crew that they've put their stamp of approval on are viewed as enemies immediately.

It does not take long. You cannot ask certain questions. I think the most recent public example comes from World Magazine. And I think Elisa Childers had this couple on her show, they were staff at crew.

And I have not had them publicly on the show. I have talked to the husband a few times, but I'm trying to remember their names now, actually. I should know this, it should be at the tip of my tongue actually.