YourCalvinist Podcast VETERANS DAY LIVESTREAM

Veterans Day Livestream and the Problem of Veteran Suicide

Hey guys, I want to welcome you to a very special live edition of your Calvinist podcast today. We're going to be talking about a very serious subject and that is the number 22 according to Josh Holler in his book redeeming warriors 22 is the number of Veterans that commit suicide every day.

This is a serious topic and Josh is a is a pastor. He's a godly man and we have him along with a very special guest today to talk about this subject. To talk about what it's like to be a Christian serving in the military and how we as Christians can pray for those who are In the military, so stay tuned your Calvinist podcast begins right now.

My troubles.

Show Introduction, Sponsors, and Guest Bios

Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience and Again, welcome to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey And as always I am your Calvinist. Want to remind you that this show is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church, so if you are in the Jacksonville area We would love for you to visit with us and you can learn about our church at sgfcjacks .org.

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And our first guest is Joshua. Holler. He is a Lee. He is the lead pastor of First Baptist Church in st. Johns, Missouri. He's been married to Laura for 14 years and is the father of five an author of redeeming warriors veteran suicide grieving and the fight for faith.

He earned a BA from Wheaton College and MDiv from Covenant Theological Seminary and is a PhD candidate and ethics and biblical studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Josh is also an adjunct professor of philosophy and Missouri Baptist University.

Josh I want to welcome you to the show. Oh.

Sorry, I had you on mute. Let me unmute. You go ahead. I say it's pleasure to be with the the Harbor Freight. Doug Wilson. Yes.

Yes, sir absolutely. For those who don't know that the joke is I am of course the Harbor Freight version of Doug Wilson. Which means I'm less less less money, but high quality high quality theology at lower prices.

So I want to thank you for being on Josh, and I want to tell you something um I have gone through your book, and I was very encouraged by it. One just learning many things that I did not know. I'm a I'm a son of a Military veteran and I'm a father of a military veteran.

My father served in Vietnam. In fact I had this I just wanted to mention It is Veterans Day. This is me and my dad this morning. He came over to the house my dad served in Vietnam, and he's still wearing his veterans hat.

He's very proud of his service, and we're proud of him and my son is currently serving in the United States Air Force he's in New Mexico a Spent three years in Germany and now is back in the United States serving and and says he wants to finish out his 20 So by God's grace.

We'll pray that he is able to continue to do that so again I'm just so thankful to have you on the show, and I'm thankful to tell everybody about Another guest that we have on the show, and I know you know who it is, but they don't.

I said it was a mystery guest and I I did that to hopefully drum up a little bit of Surprise interest and for people who don't know who this man is I'm gonna tell you something you need to get to know who this Man is.

I want to bring him in right now. This is lieutenant colonel Dave Grossman. He is an author he is a Speaker he speaks all around the United States and around the world on Various subjects, but the subject that I I learned about him on is through his seminar the bulletproof mind.

He did a seminar that he teaches to military and law enforcement on how to survive Deadly encounters and how to survive not only the physical but also the mental stress of dealing with a deadly encounter.

I sat through eight hours of this man's seminar the only thing we did was stop to take breaks to go to the bathroom and get he would always Say urine levels down caffeine levels up and get back in here and I Remember that to this day.

I can't say that in church, but I But I want to say thank you Lieutenant colonel Dave Grossman for coming on the show.

And being with us today as well. My honor Keith. I was not. It'd be important to you. Well done, brother.

And for those who don't know he's been on the show with me before we we interviewed him about church safety and church security. Several years ago. And so if you go back into the show Archives of the podcast you'll find that I've had him on the show and and I'm so thankful.

Just to just to be able to call you a friend and someone that I truly respect. Read your material read your books. He did he did on killing on combat and you know, many other books, but those books like you said Josh you were a Marine.

So you said those books were required reading? Yeah.

Part is so to give it back to the Lord they have. On spiritual combat, you know, we talked about in the Combat I know, you know on killing what's it about on spiritual combat? And then we got him and that's what the books all about is to help lay that foundation to be a.

Be warriors for Christ. Mm-hmm. Amen. Amen. Josh. You were gonna say you were gonna say something. Yeah.

Yeah, it's just part of the the common on to recommended reading list. And so yeah, we I everybody that I know has read it had both those books. I haven't read that third one, though.

I'll have to go in that direction Josh. You'll touch some lives. And the sequel of that one's out on spiritual combat is basic training equipment issue Ephesians chapter 6 prayer drills and then on spiritual warfare is advanced training and We've got the bulletproof.

Marriage goes with it to 90-day devotional. So we've been able to you know to hear it as I'm kind of on the back half of my career. I'm 68. I want to stay in the fight for another 20 years. But that give it back to the Lord now take all that that he's given me and Commandants list and pointed back to the Lord and praise God for the opportunity.

And and Keith what an honor to be on your show. I remember well last time and eager to be on board this time. Neat stuff.

Why Josh Holler Wrote Redeeming Warriors

Excellent. Well, thank you again, sir, and I want to toss it over to Josh real quick because your book as I said It really is it's a it's a strong read I would say a difficult read because you tell life store real life stories of men that you know who have.

Who have taken their own lives? And who are veterans and I I think most of us in our families or extended families and friends. Know of at least someone. Who who has been in that situation? It's so common so sadly common that that so many of us would know someone.

But I want to ask this question sort of to get the ball rolling and we're gonna talk we're gonna dive in a little bit To this issue, but just to ask this this one question. Why did you feel the need to write this book?

I know that I know that's an important subject. But this is a subject that is often taboo, especially in Christian circles man. So suicides a hard topic people don't want to talk about it. People don't want to ask the difficult questions that go with it and you're opening yourself up by writing this book.

You're opening yourself up to a lot of questions that people don't want to deal with but what was the onus on your heart?

What caused you to want to do this? Yeah, I think it was two things. One was, you know, I'm not sure if I was a Christian when I was in the military I grew up in a Christian home group. Actually, I went to it I wasn't wearing a pacifist tradition Mennonite brethren and I joined the Marine Corps.

Yeah. Oh, obviously not a pacifist by any stretch left home and I had I knew the things of Lord, but I just saw a lot of brokenness and you know by by God's grace, you know my first deployment I don't think there was an injury in the entire battalion our first point.

That's not true. The second a few people died a couple who got shot but it was coming to faith or The very least actually walking my faith whether I came to Christian earlier or later or whatever Was the first thing and then secondly, well, you know I've also seen how my life wasn't matching up to to the gospel to it scripture calls us to but then secondly having lost nine friends to suicide after having been deployed and I'm coming home and I'm looking at my experience and the Impression that I had was that in order to to have PT in order to commit suicide you have to have PTSD.

Which means you had to have seen just hair just terrible things in combat and that wasn't really matching my experience. I mean by God's grace that my seniors like protected us. We several times IEDs were set in for us and they didn't go off.

We spotted them that sort of thing. And so I'm looking at my experience to say what what is what is happening several of these guys a few of them have seen Combat, but some of them didn't so what is it that's Causing them to slip into this depression then and then to take their own life and that Cost me to do to do a deep dive into I think into the story and realize that there's some insufficiencies with the.

With how we talk about veterans suicide PTSD Becomes the focus but it's not the only thing that's going on.

Conversion, Discipleship, and Personal Testimony

Yeah, absolutely. And. So you you became a Christian you you believe or at least started really following Christ when you were in the military or since. Well.

When did that happen? Yeah, I think I think well it was when I was in college. Or going to a church. We were part of an ABC Church American Baptist Church a very liberal Church. Which I don't have any categories for that kind of thing theological liberalism.

But a very conservative pastor and really what was happening as I was just being discipled. He would he's like, hey you want to preach sometime and I preached Dave. I break Ephesians 6 and you know, the the the piece of armor that's that's missing.

Is it is one that Paul doesn't use a metaphor for but it's prayer, you know. It's like it's the wartime walkie-talkie. I was a terrible sermon and he's just like hey Let's do it again sometime and he was discipling me and pretty soon I'm doing this degree in international relations thinking I want to work in the State Department.

I'm realizing all my time I'm listening to people like James White and I'm I'm coming to a reformed understanding the faith. I didn't know what that was at the time. Jeff Durbin an apology. He doesn't even know this but he was an influence to me.

I'm listening to these RTS church lectures. But really all suddenly there's this passion for the Word of God and for theology and pretty soon my pastor was like, you know. Have you considered going to seminary now background to this?

This is going to my testimony a little bit. I was in deep sin guys I'm what? Growing up into life. I was I think my kids are watching. So what my wife can pause as she want to. But I was addicted to pornography.

I was this was something I took into my marriage. I thought and uh, and I was just I was just broken over this and I knew that I was living a life. Contrary to what scripture would have me live and I was listening to these church lectures on Augustin and his own brokenness in this area where he he would go to Babylon and roll in his own filth and.

And to would want to be easily seduced and later he would write Lord grant me celibacy dot dot dot. You know ellipsis, but not yet and I'm like, that's me. Like I was having this battle of sin like Paul, you know the things I don't want to do.

I do the things I shouldn't do, you know. What wicked man that I am who will free me from this bondage of sin and it wasn't until I was in summer Greek Covenant seminary I approached our pastor and I was like I need to confess to somebody what's going on.

So and he's you know, so thank you for being vulnerable with me and in that sort of thing. But you need to first pray Psalm 51 against you and you Lord. You alone Lord have I sinned and be reconciled of God and then go be reconciled with with your wife.

And so I don't know in that continuum at what point that that I was a Christian way back then I just I just floundered and wasn't being discipled or was I later discipled but at that moment at least.

For sure.

I was repenting and turning to Christ and following in faith and I was later later baptized and been walking with the Lord since brother.

Amen. Well praise the Lord for that and I do want to. I want to jump back over to I'm gonna call you brother Dave. I just can't call you Dave. You said to call you Dave, right? I just can't do it. So can I call you brother Dave?

Okay, that's in our church like all the pastors. Never a general generally. That's a title we say. But brother. Can you just tell everybody for those who don't know I've heard your testimony. But can you tell everybody how you became a Christian and and and were you in the military when that happened or was it before?

Yeah, I was in the military didn't grow up in a Christian home married a wonderful Christian girl. I Was going to night school as a young young sergeant. I wanted to go to OCS and I had to get certain amount of college credit to go there first and I ended up taking a philosophy class and The guy that taught the class night school was as dr. David Howell and He was local pastor a philosophy degree at Duke University.

And he really showed me I'm really smart science geeky type guy. And he really showed me that that coming to the Lord was the most rational and logical thing on the planet. That I came to the Lord by head and then later of my heart and and it's been a steady growing process.

But when I everyone knows my book on killing on combat both Marine Corps commandants required reading list when the opportunity came to do on spiritual combat, I Might my greatest spiritual growth has really been in recent years I've been a pastor.

I've been a deacon. I Presented and done so many things and yep I started writing those books and on spiritual combat then on spiritual warfare is the sequel. I feel like it's an ever-evolving thing.

There wasn't a single moment in time. But between my wife and I ended up serving as a deacon and and David Howell's church. They're disciples of Christ we're also kind of a liberal left-wing church, but I've moved to the right ever since but what a beautiful opportunity to grow and thrive a young sergeant going to night school.

Learning about that. It's a rational thing. And here's the important thing. We're scared down right up front. The most important thing universe it really did happen. Jesus really did die on the cross.

He really did rise from the dead and we know this because 11 of the 12 disciples Were martyred for mineral died for a lie. And then the disciples of the disciples died and that's straight-up Roman history.

Nobody can refute it and people don't die. They didn't want to die that they made it clear that no, it really did happen. I'm not gonna rip, you know, I just I was just big story. We made it up. Oh cool.

But they wouldn't do that. Not you don't lose your salvation. Somebody threatens your family. Okay, I don't believe fine. You don't lose your salvation, but these people they really knew if you kill me, I will be with Jesus right now I know it because I saw him come back from the dead It really did happen and that's that kind of rational side of the whole equation that I rolled with ever since.

Amen amen. Well, thank you for that. And and it's interesting. You mentioned disciples of Christ. I grew up in a disciples of Christ Church. I'm a reformed Baptist pastor now, but but I we have that connection that I didn't realize so that's that's interesting.

The Reality of Veteran Suicide Beyond PTSD

Yeah, so Josh.

Your book.

Again, it's called redeeming warriors and I'm gonna have a link to it in the description. If anybody wants to get a copy. I definitely recommend you doing that. And part of the reason why I invited brother Dave on tonight is because I Noticed when I was going through the book that he did an endorsement for it.

I was like, well, hey if he endorsed it You know that he believes in it and and and believes in what it says and and I was encouraged by that. So I'm thankful To be able to make that connection. Josh the the first story you tell In the book and I don't want to I want to give too much away I promise no spoilers in the sense of for the book.

But but you talk about the first suicide that you that you dealt with. And you were I believe if I remember correctly you were in your first post or and it was somebody that nobody expected For this to happen.

And and now you say you've gone through. Didn't you say nine people that you know?

It's nine is when I wrote the book if that number is actually up to 11 now. Oh.

Heavens.

What is in your estimation? What has been if there is any Links in the chain other than the fact these men all served in the military has there has there been something That you know because a lot of people like you said a lot of people tie it to PTSD.

But you're saying that's that's not always the case. But is there something else that you have noticed that you can? Bring out tonight and say this is this is something that that links things together.

Yeah, I think when it comes to the issue veteran suicide. It's not if I could summarize in this way, it's not so much of a problem what's wrong with Veterans or you know our service members. Well, what's wrong with us as a society that the veteran experience is exacerbating and I think.

What what we're revealing like, you know veterans haven't changed precisely. What's what's wrong with society is what's being exacerbated? So these it's an upstream problem. There's a few ways I get I suppose I could get at this.

But what particularly with the people that I knew and then we could talk larger trends it was easiest to almost identify a suicide vulnerable person if you could kick like think of a three three-legged stool of faith family and friends and if you kick one of The legs of that support system out.

That's like a it's a it lowers that threshold against that person you kick two out or a third one out. And it's almost that that person is gonna be so much more vulnerable when it comes to especially when they're off of active duty.

Transitioning back into life dealing with community and so forth. So for example, if you're an atheist, you don't believe that there is any good or any purpose to life or at bottom. There's just there's no good or evil.

It's just like what Dawkins is just blind and pitiless indifference. Well, who cares that if you look if you live or die like that's against you if your family if you came from an estranged family where.

One or more of your parents are divorced or you're at odds if you're your brothers and sisters and so forth. Who do you go to and one of the things is like as veterans? It's we don't typically go to our fellow brothers and sisters veterans.

We live all over the United States and that's that's a hard thing was like we get this tight-knit community. For this for if you're blessed beyond that six years. Maybe eight years and two enlistments with these guys you bond to go together these amazing things some hard things and then you're just spread to the four winds and.

So then when you have somebody like me and they go into college and you feel I want to risk a cultural reference here. You feel like happy happy Gilmore, right? Billy Madison Billy Madison going back to school and there's all these look these kids that are Entitled complaining about how mom and daddy aren't paying for all their schooling and I'm I'm here doing this.

Either the GI Bill cuz mommy daddy couldn't pay for me, you know, I don't want to identify with them. So I'm not gonna get a tight into the community. And so then I start to use to do the things that I used to cope while I was in the military.

This speaking more broadly and it's with drinking which was a praise thing. And so you can see the experiences that were. Taking them like I'll you know drinking to excess alcoholism and so forth. You take that and just kind of plot out what's going to happen when this person leaves the military.

This person will be so much more vulnerable and it takes like the friend thing to like, you know friendships change considerably when you when you go home and. The guys that didn't deploy didn't join the military and you're like, wow, we're different people.

We've experienced different things and it's not like they just pause the friendship. We've we've just kind of grown apart. So if you could take you know. Look at that faith family friends thing and just see how the military experience alters and changes that and if you remove one of those one of those Support systems on that on that truck that triage there that that tripod.

That's a way to identify. Somebody's going to be suicide vulnerable that's that's a quick stab at that we can go to some more the details on the how to identify some those things upstream, but.

I'm gonna I want to do that. I do want to I'm going to ask brother Dave one one question a moment. He brought up before the show. Another indicator or I think it was sleep deprivation was the thing that he wanted to bring up.

So I'm going to toss it to him but before I do that you you've mentioned family and I have a legitimate question and This is coming from a non-military member. I I did not serve in the military. I'm proud of my son.

I'm proud of my father, but I did not personally serve. So I'm speaking as an outsider when it comes to this. So I'm gonna ask this question. It seems as if when someone goes into the service. At least in some of the experience I've seen it could be could just be anecdotal could just be my experience.

But it seems as if like there's almost an intended Taking away from family like it seems like everywhere. They put my son has been so far away from us. We and and and and and I don't know if that's been like intentional or if it just happens to be.

I mean he he was In Arizona for a year after he after he got out of his he's a crew chief on ff 16. Or yeah, he's crew chief on f -16. So he's in Arizona. Then they moved him to Germany where he served for three years now, he's back in New Mexico.

We live in Florida. He's never been close enough to see him. I feel like he has been taken away from his family. And and again, I'm not complaining. This is his this is what he wants to do. But I do wonder is is somebody said one time Will they take you away from family and people because there might be bad influence and things.

Have you ever heard that or is that a is that a good reason or am I I I don't think. Okay, I don't think that's necessarily Intentional because for example the Navy and Marine Corps bases are almost almost all Allocated near water except for like 29 palms, which is where I was.

But nobody wants to live there, I think that would be more incidental.

Okay, I had to ask because again my wife. My wife and I have wondered like is he choosing this?

Does he just not want to be. You know, what mom and dad breathing down his neck?

We miss our son and I and I hope if he watches this he knows how much I love him. Because I do I do miss him so much.

I've got a grandson deployed right now. My son retired after 27 years and I'm combat. There was no my grandson's in Kuwait right now, I know what you mean, you know, they. They're away, you know, we're only in one spot.

It doesn't hold the world of places where they could be that we're not. But we sure miss them when they're out. Yeah.

Amen. Well brother Dave you you mentioned about the sleep deprivation and this was one of the because we we talked about faith family and friends. But you said there are other other things that can be.

There's a there's a global explosion of suicide. I Worked a lot law enforcement. We lose more cops to suicide than every other line of duty death put together. We've had a record number of cops murdered in the line of duty but we lose more cops their own hand than every other line of duty death put together and At tweenagers said 11 12 year teenage girls suicide rate is tripled.

The new factor in the equation is just global explosion of sleep deprivation and and you really got to understand this the Every living organism is this powerful drive to self-preservation. When Tesla take your own life is very very hard.

Alcohol has always been the catalyst that puts you over the top. You've got all these problems and and then you add alcohol and it makes it Biologically possible to overcome that resistance take your own life but but now we know sleep deprivation works exactly the same way and only drunk for a brief window and Queen age girls are not getting drunk, you know.

You know lesson number one for a parent in 21st century when the syndicated Bennett and I take their cell phone away from them. I I had a cop come up to me of the link between sleep deprivation and suicide.

So we do an online search suicide sleep deprivation. It's not just a factor. It's the most remediable factor. We can't do much about your relationships right now. We can't do much about your finance. We'll get you good night's sleep right now.

So a cop came up to me. He's I talked about this. He said I had a good girl. He said she was an a student. She said dad, it's embarrassing. You don't have to take my cell phone every night. You can trust me the family policy itself.

I'm gonna charge you go to bed. It's okay. I trust you keep your cell phone. He's a little while later. She took her life. He said my little girl took her life. And we never knew the hell she was living in until we looked at the text messages on her cell phone.

Night after night of ceaseless relentless vicious bullying and he can't just ignore that we're not wired this way. He said it was heart-rending syrup all night long night after night trying to defend herself.

He said I immediately understood my little girl was bullied to death. What I didn't understand until now. Is she was sleep-deprived? Tormented and bulleted from eyes and I let it happen. He said I can't ignore that text message in the middle of the night.

How can we expect our kids to so understand this? Every every community except except the Mennonites and the Amish. Every community has seen an explosion of suicide and the new factor Sleep deprivation is just like being drunk 24 hours without sleep is just like blowing 0 .10 above legally drunk.

And so sleep deprivation impairs your judgment and they make a bad decision every the test rethink it. So when we start looking at things, what's he sleep deprived? Oh, it's on social media all that long.

Well, what's she sleep deprived?

Oh, yeah.

She played video games all night long. And it's the one component we get a hold of and and and be conscious of how it's exploded. Every age group every community and the one thing we make doggone sure is we get good quality sleep.

And and and that's the new Ingredient. Globally, that's the catalyst that allows you to overcome that powerful God-given resistance that take your own life.

You know, I'm I'm reminded and again, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed coming to the seminar and I did it twice. Here in Jacksonville when you did it for JSO I did it. I think it was two years in a row you you you invited me to come.

I was only non-leo there, but but I was a Pastor and and you you allowed me to come. I was very grateful. But I remember in that class you talked about the value of sleep. You carried a sleep mask in your shirt sleeve pocket and you you talked about making it dark so you could be asleep and I if I remember this correctly and you Say it the right way.

But I'll say what I remember you saying and that is something to the effect of you. If you're sleep-deprived you can get it back a good night's sleep can restart the. How did you say that am I getting it?

It's the most remediable factor. That's what we can't do much about your relationships right now. We can't do much about your finances right now, but we can get you good night's sleep right stinking now.

You know, I just taught all of East Texas school safety seminar all day long. I said look, you know, we're gonna talk about keeping your school safe from violence. Well, you're pretty good. You have innate murders.

I bet you had some suicides. Bet you had traffic deaths. I bet you had mental illness. And the link between sleep deprivation and suicide. Sleep deprivation. Traffic death. Sleep deprivation mental illness.

Is you do studying in one of those sleep? Deprivation is a factor. It causes chronic pain. Why why opiates the opiate epidemic, you know. We lose more people to fentanyl then every year than the entire Vietnam War.

We lose 70 80 ,000 Americans. Fentanyls an opiate. Prescription opiates have always been there. Why are they the drug of choice. Will sleep deprivation creates chronic pain?

And so.

You know when you look around at this global explosion of sleep deprivation the video games a social media the head of Netflix Said their competitors sleep their corporate policies just steal your sleep.

So these video games. And in the social media and the other things that are happening. We got to fight back as we love our families. We love our way life. We've got to get sleep and sleep is a biological blind spot.

Your body knows how to get air food water. Talk about the air food water your body will take over but your body doesn't know how to make you get enough sleep. It's a biological blind spot. It always happened.

Actually it got dark. So we got to make it happen and and and and and I told these this the school safety seminar. You want to walk out that door and save a kid's life. You teach sleep hygiene right now.

Tell them how many hours sleep they need based on their age. Tell them how to calculate that tell them to sleep in total darkness and tell them to the cut off caffeine. Shortly at lunch just three things as an adult you need seven hours of sleep or more.

You've got to cut off caffeine shortly after lunch and you've got to sleep in total darkness. And that's where the sleep mask comes in and and and and if we taught that in the second grade We'd walk out the door and save lives suicide traffic deaths drug overdoses right now right now.

So that's that's that's that a piece of the equation that we don't often know about where we can get a grip on it right now.

Faith, Community, and the Church's Role in Prevention

Absolutely. I've been watching the comments while we're talking and it seems like we got several guys who have served in the military who are Out there. So I want to just say from from all of me to all of you.

Thank you for your service. Thank you for being on the show and watching and this gentleman here just posted and I think this is good. I think he's referring to sleep. He says it is a necessary gift of God and I think That's right right way to to discuss that.