The Here I Stand Theology Podcast- Interview with Kris Williams (KDUB)

Here I stand. I can do no other. Will you recant or will you not?

Since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer.

Unless. I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason.

And not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves. My conscience is captive to the word of God.

To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not.

Here I stand. I can do no other.

God help me. God help me.

I ain't got a stain and I'm feeling brand new, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

I kept giving, getting, didn't earn it, but I still got it, yeah, knotted by my words, yeah, yeah, now

I'm in this church, yeah, ain't nothing I could earn, did it by his own, yeah you know

I didn't deserve it, now I'm singing out, Christ clean me up, Christ clean me up,

Christ clean me up, I ain't got a stain and I'm feeling brand new, yeah, yeah, ♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, alright so if you look in your bible you turn to first Corinthians chapter 6 you'll find in the 9th verse that the

Word of God states this. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

So what you just heard there playing was K -Dub's new release. Chris Williams is with us tonight.

We are super excited about having him on. We'll bring him on here in just a second. So excited,

I forgot to give our spiel here. We are the Here I Stand Theology Podcast.

At the Here I Stand Theology Podcast, we are a podcast devoted to a pointed and a sometimes spirited debate of biblical doctrine.

As well, the Here I Stand Theology Podcast is a ministry of Reformation Baptist Church, meaning that we are under accountability to the body of Christ there at Reformation for everything that we say and everything that we do.

So that being said, let's go ahead and bring Chris in here.

But we want to make him feel at home. He's there in his studio, and I'm sure every time he gets on, he hears this.

But we want him to feel at home. So here you go, Chris. I love it.

All right. I appreciate that, man.

You're welcome. Seriously, we want to make you feel at home, man. All that we can.

So glad that you're with us. So how are you doing? Doing good, man. Blessed to be on. Encouraged by you and everything you're doing, man.

It's good to link up with you. Very nice. Very nice. So tell us a little bit about who is

Chris Williams. Who is K -Dub? Yeah, man. Nobody special, man.

Just someone the Lord saved. I'm an artist. I do music.

Love to make music. I'm married. I'm very proud of that. I've been married to my lovely wife,

Tanya, for almost seven years, coming up in April. That's awesome.

Man, just a normal church -going guy, man. I reside here in the Dallas area.

Accountable as well to the local church. Man, I'm a laid -back guy.

Nothing too crazy about me. Oh, that's very nice. Very nice.

Do you have any children? No children. Lord willing, me and my wife do desire to adopt.

And so hopefully in the next year or something, we can get that worked out. Praise the Lord. That's a big process nowadays, isn't it?

It is. It is. Man. Man. All right. So tell me,

I started to ask you this before we came on, but I said I was going to wait to ask you this. So tell me a little bit about who some of your favorite theologians might be.

Some of my favorite theologians. Well - Dead or alive. Yeah. Yeah.

So my favorite theologian, I'm biased, is my local pastor,

Emilio Ramos. And I don't say that to be cliche. I genuinely feel that way.

That is awesome. I think that should be everybody's... Your local pastor should be your favorite pastor.

Praise the Lord. And so I genuinely feel that way. Just to hear him preach, just to be around the brother and learn from him has been encouragement to my soul.

Other men who have been deeply enriched and learned much from their ministry.

John MacArthur is probably one of my favorite expositors. Just 50 years of ministry.

He's been holding it down, laying it down for a long time. Voting Volcom. Maybe someone dead.

Spurgeon, right? We love Spurgeon. There's so many men. I'm sure

I'm not thinking of some. After, I'll be like, man,

I should have named that guy. But so many great men of God that have encouraged me. That's one of the easier questions right here.

Right. So at the Here I Stand Theology Podcast, and you let it slip.

You've not been able to watch our episodes or anything yet. And what you don't realize is that when we have a first time guest on, we ask kind of a question, and that wasn't the big question.

This question will really set the tone for our conversation tonight.

All right. So are you ready for it? Let's get it. All right. So you just said that your favorite theologian is

Emilio Ramos, right? That's right. Your pastor. That's right. So here's the big question.

If you and Emilio Ramos had to arm wrestle, who would win? Hands down,

I would win. I, hands down, would win. Yes. Oh, man, that's a great answer.

Everybody else, everybody else. Doug Wilson skirted around that question.

Phil Johnson skirted around that question. I'm glad that you said that. That was a manly answer.

I'm just being honest. I stay in shape. I work out pretty regularly. So I think

I would win. That is a fantastic answer.

So we listen there to your new release.

Tell us a little bit about writing that song. I'm assuming do you produce, write, and do the whole shebang?

Yeah. So I don't make beats, but I do everything else as far as writing, recording, all that comes with that.

And so, yeah, that was Clean. I wrote that song a few months ago and just released pretty like in the last month.

And so, yeah, I just wrote it to really encourage the body. I was just kind of thinking about God's imputed righteousness, right?

My faith and was really just encouraged to write something to encourage us all of those simple truths, right?

That Christ has taken on every sin of ours.

Yeah. And so that was really where the song kind of came out of. And I hope it's been an encouragement to everyone who's heard it.

It has. It has been to me. I'll tell you this, just to be honest, about an hour and a half ago,

I was just listening through it again. And here's the thing, and we may get in this later or not, but I am thoroughly a reformed man.

I'm assuming you are too. Absolutely. Me though, we're almost being your pastor and everything like that too.

He's read Grace Media, right? That's right. Yep. But I think that there is a challenge that we have as reformed folk, particularly like in our realm where we are like doing discernment videos, listening to what folks are saying in the name of God and comparing it to the word of God and testing the spirits as the scripture tells us to.

There, I think that at times there may be a bit where us reformed folk go too far in the cold dead orthodoxy, and we don't want to feel the spirit, right?

There's a balance there. And I said all that to say this as I was listening to your song.

I mean, it's like the Holy Spirit just reminded me of that scripture that I read there.

Such were some of you, right? Such were some of you, but you were washed clean.

You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our

God. It just made me rejoice. I mean, when I say rejoice,

I mean I cry. Yeah. I know we're men, folks say men ain't supposed to cry, but I think they're wrong.

Yeah, it's totally okay to be happy, cry to rejoice over God's truth and God's word.

I'm all for it. Amen. But I just want to encourage you in the faith on that too, on that front.

Keep making good music. By the way, I will put a link in the video when it posts up to Apple iTunes, right?

Yeah, that's fine. I appreciate it. Thank you. And I'm going to put a link to Wakanda.

If folks didn't see your video Wakanda, that was good. Yeah. I make music every now and then.

And so hopefully when I drop something, it's encouragement. And like I said, I do have stuff.

I've already got recorded, ready to release. I just want to put it to a video or something. So just be on the lookout for that as well.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, we are looking forward to that. But let's do this.

So we are here tonight. The substance and the meat of the podcast is theology.

You are All Things Theology, right? That's the name of your podcast. By the way,

I've got your logo down there. It'd be to your left, to my right there, so folks can see that.

So we want to talk about theology. Of course, theology is the study of the knowledge of God, right?

Where do we learn who God is and what God's character is? The scriptures, the

Bible, right? And so obviously, if folks have been tracking with your stuff, your podcast, which is wonderful, by the way, it seems like that as Martin Luther had

Erasmus as his nemesis, you and Marcus Rogers are going back and forth some.

Yeah, just a little bit. Maybe I've been a rock in his shoe. My concern is because I used to come out of the

Word of Faith theology. My family is kind of caught up in that. I have no issue with him as a person, but just the things that's being taught, it's a concern and a care for the people in his church and the people he influences.

He has a false gospel, and because I care, I address it. A lot of people think, well, just leave him alone.

Just leave the bad theology alone. It's like, well, no, we've been called to declare truth and correct error.

If you are a Christian, you want to be biblical, you got to do both. You don't get an option to do one or the other.

You do both. We obey God. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

So we are going to, it'll be, I guess, kind of a reaction time.

We're going to watch some clips. We're going to first watch some clips from G3. We're going to watch a little bit of Bode Bauckham, a little bit of Josh Bice, a little bit of Paul Washer, because that's the good, as we mentioned earlier, and we want our audience to realize the good is what we want to focus on.

The counterfeit and the false is what you want to be able to identify. But the heart of our study as Christians needs to be on the theology of the scriptures so that we are able to identify truth from error.

So, Chris, are you ready? Let's get it. All right, here we go.

True worship happens when we set our mind's attention and heart's affection on the Lord, praising Him for who

He is and for what He's done. Christ died for sin once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us back to God.

I love the way Isaiah puts it. All of us had gone astray. Each of us had turned to his own way, but God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

I read an article by John. So let's stop there for just a moment.

And if something strikes a chord with you, just say, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop, wave, do something.

Let me know. Yeah. So, I mean, Woody Baucom always just gives a super clear and pointed explanation of the gospel.

Yes. And that is an example for godly men who aspire to be pastors, who aspire to be evangelists, who aspire to proclaim the gospel to other people, particularly in the local church setting.

All right, you want to go move ahead and let's hear what Josh Bias has to say? Let's do it. All right.

MacArthur some years ago, where he was describing the problem of the user -friendly phenomenon within modern evangelicalism.

And he provided some popular testimonies from these user -friendly churches where members were giving testimonies of their church.

It was a means of marketing their church to the community. So let's pause there for a minute.

What do you know of this kind of thing taking place?

Obviously, you see it there. You're in Dallas, right? Right, right. We all have it around us.

I know you said you had family in the Word of Faith movement. I myself, I think it's worse than Word of Faith around here.

I don't know. And I'm not being mean or trying to be funny on this, but it's way left charismatic.

But they come to the mainstream churches. The marketing has come into play throughout the years.

What have you seen on that? Yeah, a lot of it is an attraction to either the church or the leader, right?

You have the one charismatic person they come for or movement. And that's what really is they're getting converted to oftentimes.

Christ is barely mentioned. Christ isn't explained. Even Bodhi said something in that first clip where he's talking about true worship is of the mind and the heart for who

God is and what He's done, right? And most people in the modern evangelical church don't know who

Christ is. Couldn't explain to you, okay, is He God or what

He's done? And that is a huge problem in most churches because most of it is what many people have like theological

TED Talks. The pastor, he just goes up, not even theological TED Talks, just TED Talks.

They're just going up there talking about life's problems and everything will be okay. Have faith in faith.

And it's just a very generic deistic God was what many people are getting converted to.

And that's nothing we should be pleased with. We want them to know their faith, be rooted, as Colossians says, to be rooted and grounded in Him.

And so, yeah, it definitely is a problem. And it's definitely why podcasts like yours exist to explain to people, as Paul says, the depths and the riches and knowledge of Him, right?

That's why we exist, to know Him and to explain Him, right? And so, yeah, it definitely is an issue.

Amen. So what we are saying here, and if you agree, you can agree.

If not, just say, count me out on this. What we are saying here is Christ did not come to teach you how to be a better boss, to even teach you how to be a better husband, to be a better person in the world.

Christ came because we needed the forgiveness of our sins. Yeah, absolutely.

Without a doubt, that needs to be the message. Yeah, that's first and foremost. Who cares if you got your 401k in line and your finances are all great, if you don't know the first thing, right?

That's right. Now, once you get the first thing in order, then we can talk about the second. We can talk about you being a better husband or being a better coworker.

But first things first, right? Amen. What will it profit a man if he gained the whole world and yet loses his own soul?

All right, here we go. Here we go. One member described their church by stating the following, the sermons are relevant, upbeat, and best of all, short.

All right, short sermons. This is one of the things that church shoppers are looking for, without a doubt.

So how about it, Mr. Ramos, short sermons or long sermons? More on the longer.

Amen. They're reasonable, but you get a lot packed in.

It's not just long sermons for the sake of long sermons, right?

Because that's not the point. The point is, are you expository preaching

God's word? Are you preaching through a book of the Bible? Are you preaching what does say the

Lord? Are you just making up things as you go along? Right. But to Vice's point, a lot of people look to churches for everything other than what a biblical church is to be.

It's like, how's your kids' ministry? Well, how's the choir? How's the singles ministry? It's like, all those things are kind of what the church kind of, or some churches prompt up.

But rather than, do you guys preach the gospel? Do you guys practice church discipline?

Why aren't those things the first and the foremost? Amen. And I think one of the benefits of being part of a biblically sound church is that even what is preached and taught, that the men of God are held accountable.

Like for example, if Mr. Ramos had said something that just struck you sideways, you would have the freedom to go, right?

To go to him and to say, so this sounded like you were saying this, and it seems like the scripture doesn't say that.

Can we communicate and talk about that? I think that's an important aspect of being part of a biblically sound church where the men of God that stand and take care of the shepherd or take care of the sheepfold are not offended when folks ask them questions.

I absolutely love it when folks come to us and ask us questions.

By the way, let me share this with you. It'll take me just a moment to find it. I won't fool with it right now.

What I wanted to share with you was, it was a post by one of our church members. Man, these folks, they moved down from Connecticut last year.

They'll be here a year next week, I think it is. But man, they teach their children.

They've got a six -year -old girl and one -year -old boy. Of course, John Calvin is his name.

They named him John Calvin. But the little girl, you can tell so much that they have worked with her.

Her mom posted something a while back on Facebook about doing something wrong.

She said, we all make mistakes. Everybody's somewhat good.

Sarah, the little girl, basically just spewed out a catechism to her. Told her, no, mom, we're all sinners, and we're all separated by God from our sins.

And just laid it out to her. But it's that kind of sound truth that the church needs to be continually giving out to its people.

And when the word is questioned, come and talk about it rather than getting mad and leaving. Because that's what happens in a lot of places.

Folks just get mad. They'll take their little red wagon. Then they'll go down the road to the next church house.

Exactly. The same problems continue to creep in and pop up.

You won't hear a lot of preaching about sin and damnation and hellfire.

Preaching here doesn't sound like preaching. It is sophisticated, urbane, and friendly talk.

It breaks all of the stereotypes. Now, if that was true back in 2008, you can only imagine what people are saying about preaching today.

Preaching hasn't become better. It's actually gotten worse in many ways. That was a huge statement right there.

Paul Walsh has said something to the extent, a church where sin isn't explained, isn't talked about, preached against, is a church where the

Spirit of God is not in. The Spirit of God convicts us of sin. He's sanctifying us.

If we can't even mention about sin, how is the Spirit even working in this body, in this church?

How is the Spirit convicting anyone of the unrighteousness in the flesh we still are in?

You run from a church if that's what they try to win you with. We don't talk about sin here.

We're not like most churches. We're relevant. We're progressive. You hear those words?

Probably not a biblical church. That's right. That's exactly right. Whatever be asked of you in the history of humanity is this very question.

But who do you say that I am? So I place the same question before you by way of application.

Who do you say that Jesus is? Who do you believe that this Jesus actually is?

It's the most important question that you could ever be asked. Your eternal destiny is hinged upon this.

You will either bow to Jesus Christ or you will be sent off into an eternity of the wrath of God.

But you will bow before him either now or at the judgment. Who do you say that Jesus is?

So I think right there is the weight of the gospel message must come to bear on people.

I think the light and the fluffy, the airy gospel is what is proclaimed and sought out by many in the world in which we live today.

The God of the Bible, as we hear proclaimed regularly from the folks we listen to, right?

I mean, the God of the scriptures is both simultaneously a

God of love and a God of wrath. He is holy. He is just.

He is good. He is righteous in all his doings. He is sovereign.

I think, what do you think about that? So the term sovereign can be taken so lightly.

But again, that is another word that is, it is huge. I mean, it is phenomenal how big that word is.

So when in your life did you come, have you always been reformed or is it just in recent years that you've come to reform theology?

I have not always been reformed. I have not always even been reformed in my Christian walk. I have been a

Christian for about 12 years and I think year nine is when I got introduced to reform theology and it was just Christ exalting,

God exalting, man humbling, right? In my walk.

And so, yeah, understanding God's sovereignty was huge when I came to understand.

To me, it lifted a lot of weight from my shoulders when just practically evangelism.

I would always feel like, oh man, I did not have the right thing. If only if I had said this, then I would have got them converted or if I had said this better or done this right.

And the sovereignty of God just helped me live freely as a Christian. And hey, I might fall short, but it is

God who is in control, right? Just leave it in his sovereignty, not as an excuse to be lazy, but as an excuse to live freely as a

Christian, you know? Yes, yes. So hyper -Calvinism is a large danger.

I'm not ashamed. I'm not ashamed to say I am reformed, that I'm a Calvinist.

I'm a happy Calvinist. Amen. I am a happy Calvinist. I love it. But that idea of God is sovereign, that we don't need to do anything is in itself an ignorance of the

Scriptures, right? Because we are taught to evangelize. I like how the old,

I think it was one of the Puritans put it, that we ought to preach the gospel promiscuously. I love that terminology.

To all men and women everywhere, whoever they are. So would you care for just a couple of minutes to maybe testify to your coming to Reformed Theology, coming to grips, maybe just a personal account of that?

Absolutely. So I'm an artist, so I was listening to a lot of Christian rappers, like Shyland, some of your listeners may know, who were explaining, funny enough, the first point

I ever heard was on L, which is usually the hardest point for many to come to grips with, was limited atonement.

And I'm over here, for like the hundredth time I'm playing the song, I finally understand what

Shyland's saying. And I'm like, wait, he's saying Jesus didn't die for everybody. And that went totally against everything

I was taught. So I'm talking with friends, next thing you know, I get, I don't know how this happened, but I get the sovereignty of God by A .W.

Pink in my hands. And I just start reading that through. And I'm like, I know nobody who holds to Reformed Theology.

Remember, I just think it's just Shyland and me, you know, or Shyland, and now me, you know,

I didn't know anything. And I'm coming to the grips, like, wow, I believe this, you know. And the more and more

I talk, you know, I hear, I study this and that, and I'm seeing, oh, wait, there's a whole movement, you know.

So people always say, well, you came to Calvin. No, I was literally wrestling with this by myself, like, in light of what the scriptures are saying.

And I'm like, I just saw election everywhere, you know, after that point. So that was my testimony of Reformed Theology and kind of my introduction.

That's exact. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. That's right, you can't. You can't unring a bell.

That's right. You can't unspill the milk. That's right. You see predestination everywhere. I'm just like, wow, how did

I not see this, you know, before, you know? So, yeah. All right, let's move right along here.

The philosophy of Plato, the views of Cicero, the naturalistic views of a godless culture, the atheistic views of men like Dawkins and Hitchens and others, the progressive views of American politics, the critical social justice ideologies of our present hour, secular humanism notwithstanding, will all come crumbling down before the throne of this very

Christ who is clothed in majesty and power and sovereign authority.

He is the Christ of God. So before we get to Paul Washer's here, and then after Paul Washer's clip, we'll be moving into the bad and the ugly of theology.

So in the song Wakanda that you did, there's some good lyrics in that.

Talk a little bit about that, writing that song. Yeah, so that song kind of bore out of years of conversations with people who kind of were embracing social justice ideologies and frustrations

I was having. Yeah, it was just the milieu of the day, right?

Listening to pastors that were once proclaiming the gospel, unity and all.

And next thing you know, I wake up and they're preaching a secular ideology in their church now.

And so it really came out of a frustration of men of God I've respected, friends

I've lost. And so it was an emotional song, though it may not sound like that.

It may sound just more critiquing. It's emotional for me when I listen to it.

When I did the video, I was just weeping because I was just reflecting on, one, the gospel that it contradicts with.

And like I said, friends and families I've lost. So that really what bore out that song. So yeah. Amen. Amen.

I mean, Votie Bauckham just a few years ago preached at the Founders Conference on the script, the biblical answer for racial reconciliation there and the difference.

Have you heard that? Have you heard that sermon? If I recall correctly, that's the one that I put at the end of the

Wakanda clip of Votie. I think that's the one because I think it was at the

Founders. And that was an excellent sermon. Is that the one where he's like just weeping? Like, yes, yes, yes.

That's it. Yeah. Yeah, that was so good. I mean, he broke it down. I don't think that there's ever been the clarification that I've ever heard.

The clarification that he gave the difference, Jew and Gentile, right? So on and so forth.

Man, it was beautiful. So good. So good. Gospel is not just a doctrine added on to other doctors.

It's not just one among many. It is the greatest manifestation of the attributes, the person of God that has ever been given or will ever be given.

If you right now were standing in the place of Isaiah in Isaiah six, if you were very beholding the very face of God upon the throne, you could not understand him well.

Unless you also understand the gospel, because it is there he has revealed the greatest of all questions.

One of my favorite books that has ever been written, it's rather lengthy, but it's worth it. It is 17th century

William Bates, the harmony of the attributes of God in the contrivance and accomplishment of our redemption, because it is in the gospel of Jesus Christ that the divine dilemma is solved, that the problem of every theologian, philosopher and thinker is finally answered.

How can God be a just God and show mercy to wicked men?

You see, Earth's problem is how can God judge? Heaven's problem is altogether different.

How can God save, pardon wicked men and still maintain his righteousness?

And the answer is in the gospel where God becomes a man and goes to a tree and bears the sin of his people.

And with that sin, the curse and with that curse, all the holy hatred, all the righteous judgment of God is poured down upon the head of God's son and he absorbs it.

He satisfies justice so it no longer has a demand against God's people.

And God can be just and the justifier of wicked men. Amen. Yes, well, most of the time.

I didn't mean to go forward there. Really nothing needs to be added there, right?

He pretty much laid it out right there. So good. I mean, that's why it's important to understand the gospel.

You know, to understand how God's attributes are not in conflict with one another.

I'm sure you hear this as much as I do today, where, you know, anytime you preaching on sin and someone may come up and say, well,

God is love as if that's a contradiction with God's wrath or his holiness or, you know.

No, I mean, yes, God is love, but not. I always tell people love apart from truth is not loving.

It's not loving to, you know, not tell someone the truth. Amen. You know, things like that.

And so I think that's excellent what Paul Washer is saying. These things are harmonious. They're not in conflict.

Amen. Amen. And now the. What do we say?

The good, the bad. That's right. So this is a clip from TBN, which tells you that it's bad right off the bat.

Bad from Trinity Broadcast Network. And Priscilla Shires is one of the popular lady teachers in our day and in our time.

Of course, she's the daughter of Tony Evans. Man, I remember, by the way, how old are you,

Chris? I'm 31. OK, so see, you're just a young man. I'll be 49 this year.

OK, so back when I was in high school. I ignorantly skipped semester exams just to go to the

Southern Baptist Convention Pastors Conference. So I had to go back another semester, you know, the next year.

But I was OK with that. But I remember hearing Tony Evans preach that year. Man, he is a phenomenal, phenomenal, fantastic speaker.

And no doubt, I wouldn't say he's not a man of God. But once you really start to examine some of the things that he said, you know, particularly in light maybe of God's sovereignty.

You know, I remember the beginning of the introduction to his message. It was there was a cosmic chess game, move and counter move between God and Satan.

I mean, it was riveting. It was enthralling. But God has never been in competition with Satan.

He's never been worried about making a move and a counter move. But in any case, all that just to kind of give a little bit of context.

So Priscilla Shire is his daughter. This is her husband on the show with the new crouches there.

So we'll hear what she says about hearing God's voice. Most of the time, God speaks to me through his word.

It is exactly what I described. It is reading through a portion. Did you catch what she said?

Yes, I had to raise my eyebrow there where she says, most of the time I'm thinking all the time.

I've never heard God outside of his word. You know, I'm a little concerned when people always have a word of God and it's outside of scripture.

Exactly. It's where we hear God. Amen. It's a denial of soul of scripture.

You know what I mean? Amen. You're exactly right. And on that day, it's like the

Holy Spirit has taken out a highlighter and has highlighted this verse you have seen a million times before.

But on that day, it leaps up off the page and it grips you. That's the only way I can really describe it, is that it grips you in the depths of your soul and causes you to pause for a moment because it seems to be literally speaking to something that's happening in your life.

Most of the time, that is the voice of God. We have discounted, I think, the power of scripture.

Because if we say we want to hear from God and we never actually read the love letter that he wrote to us, we don't want to really hear from God.

And we rarely will. Because the canon of scripture, it not only provides the boundary into which everything

God says to us will fall, because he'll never say anything that manipulates the scriptures or his character.

Stop. So we talked a little bit before the podcast, you know, the danger of the blending of truth and error there.

It's almost as if she's talking out both sides of her mouth as the old saying goes.

I mean, she makes those statements at the beginning most of the time. And then she uses that term again.

And then she tries to use the scriptures as the standard, as the boundary.

But then again, in this very next breath moves beyond the standard of the scriptures. That's the danger.

You have a lot of charismatics who kind of try to use the same argument where, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, scripture is primary, but God still speaks outside of it as long as it doesn't contradict.

And my thing is, is the canon close? You know, she's saying, you know, the canon is the guideline.

Hold on. Wait, wait. I didn't know it was just the guideline. I thought it was also closed. It's it is this.

It is what it is. You know, it's so I would, you know, just me, me and dealing with a lot of charismatics,

I kind of know what she's getting at. I would press her on is the canon close, you know?

So, yeah, yeah. Which is which is a what you're giving is our audience a bullets for their gun, fuel for their fire right there.

Those are those. Then those are such simple questions. Just as soon as you hear that, ask a question.

Some folks won't don't want to answer the question. Yeah, the burden improves on them now.

That's right. Artists out on because I know so many people wonder, oh, you know, how can

I hear God's voice for ourselves? And I trust it or trust or trust it. How can I trust God's voice when

I do hear it? Is that really him? Is it me? Is it? Well, let me let me just start by putting a little grace over this entire situation.

The reality is that sometimes you do not know until hindsight that what you heard was the voice of God.

And the reality is that there is grace and mercy to cover our missteps and that the Lord in his graciousness toward us, his knowledge of our frailty and our humanity for the willing heart who desires to do his will, even when we make mistakes, he allows them to become our greatest teachers for hearing him correctly in the future.

So the basic assumption there is that even when you she said, even when you basically get past it, you don't realize it was the word of God.

The basic assumption is that, like you said, that there is a voice of God outside of the scriptures.

Mm hmm. And and, you know, because she's kind of saying, well, kind of like, you know,

I'll allow this grace because sometimes we make essentially what she's saying. Sometimes we may get it wrong, misinterpret it.

But here's the question I would have another one of those questions, right? Is God speaking clearly?

You know, let's let me let me, you know, step back and say, OK, presuppositionally, he is speaking outside the scriptures.

Well, is he speaking clear is, you know, because all the times these charismatic still prophesy something wrongly.

I'm like, wait a minute. You heard that from God. Is God now lying to you? And so you don't get to just, you know, well, when you get it wrong.

Oh, we need to allow grace. Well, hold on. The Bible is very clear. If you give a false prophecy, you know, things like this.

And like people don't you know, they don't want actually scripture to be the guideline. It's this this rhema word, as they say, you know, but no scripture is the guideline.

Amen. Amen. If I'm going to kick a field goal, I want the goalpost to be in the center of the end zone. In the center of the back of the end zone.

I don't want it on either side, one side or the other. And don't keep moving it on me either. Exactly. I'll never know where to kick it.

You talk about seeking God's provision and his blessings on our life.

And then knowing who what his character is. Talk about that, because I found that fascinating.

Yes. So God's blessing and I believe his provisions are corroboration of his word to us.

So in other words, while in the Old Testament, there were external means as a primary way for folks to hear

God in the New Testament. And now in this time frame as well, we have something they didn't have. We have the Holy Spirit. So the primary way he has speak to us is that he speaks to us has changed.

But his goal hasn't. His goal is still for his kids to hear his voice. All right.

So I can see the wheels turning. Yeah. Go ahead. I don't know where she comes to the conclusion that in the

Old Testament. Well, first of all, that it changed that God, his means of speaking, was it changed one, but that they didn't have the

Holy Spirit. I mean, no, they did have the Spirit. I mean, I don't know how you can read

Genesis to Malachi and not see the Spirit of God moving and working. Like you're reading with your eyes closed.

That's the only way I can, you know, kind of come to that conclusion. And, you know, so I don't even know how she came to that conclusion.

So it's very strange. I appreciate that you just said that. So, so, so few folks are willing to say that, right?

That the Spirit was there. He has always been there. I mean, read

Genesis 1. The Spirit is hovering and moving. He's in the temple dwelling with the priest. He, you know,

Jesus condemns Nicodemus for not knowing how the Spirit was moving and working. Exactly. John 3. So you cannot say what she just uttered because, because you here, here's the, here's a more fundamental problem.

If you pressed her, you would have two ways of how God saved from Old Testament to new, because the

Spirit is what convicts us of sin and, and, you know, and dwells the believer. You have a fundamental difference of that from old to new, which the gospel has not changed, you know.

Amen. Amen. Hebrews. I think it may be, she may have twisted this one a little bit too from Hebrews 1.

Long ago at many times, in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things through whom also he created the world.

There's, she's doing some gymnastics there with the scripture. Some twisting.

That's right. All right. And now very quickly, the ugly, and then we'll move to a close.

Two, three, come on. These people up here, some of them are entering into a trances.

So you said that's a local church right there in Dallas? That's right. Man. That's right.

You know, when, when, when the word of God is not sufficient, you have to entertain people with something other, you know, then, then the word, then, then scripture, you know, you gotta put on a show.

You gotta, you know, constantly make them laugh. You have to, you know, I don't know, do gymnastics, literally in there, have them running around and knocking people off with your shirt.

Just preach the word, you know, that's, that's, that's what the, that's what the scriptures are given. You know, elders, you want to know how to sustain a church?

Preach the word. You know, you, you don't have to be fanciful at the end of the day. You may not be the most gifted preacher.

That's okay. Preach the word. Amen. God is the, is the one with the power anyway.

It's not dependent upon our fancifulness, our, our rarity. Ultimately, it's the power that resides in preaching what

God has said to preach. Amen, Chris. Not trying to recreate all these things, you know, just, just preach the word.

That's, here's, here's the amazing thing. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're the problem.

And God has given us such a simple task at the end of the day. Just preach what he said, you know. Amen. Amen.

What'd he say? When I was, when I was a young preacher, uh, I went and visited a church.

And as a young preacher, uh, you know, he wrestled a lot. It was really before I, I, I announced my call to preach at 17.

So I had to do a lot of growing and a lot, I had a lot of growing pain, so to speak.

But I remember what one preacher told me one time, I went to his church to visit. He said, you want to preach today?

And this is just country churches, you know, country churches around here. You show up and they'll, they'll, the older preachers will put you to it.

But, uh, he said, you want to preach? I said, I don't have a, you know, a cop out. I don't have a message.

And he took his Bible and he just handed it toward me. And he said, here, take mine. It's got a whole bunch of messages in it.

And I thought that was, that was such good advice for an old man of God to give a young preacher there.

So, um, so let's, uh, last of all, let's not even fool with that. Everybody's seen the

Michael Todd clip of him spitting into his hands. And by the way, that was his brother ended up in his brother, wasn't it?

His brother, brother -in -law. Yeah, his brother. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't the first time that he did it.

He did it like two years ago, but I just don't think he was as popular as he was now.

And so it definitely rose, you know, a lot of, a lot of attention and discussed as, as it should.

Yeah. Yeah. I showed that to my father -in -law a while back. Oh my goodness.

I thought he's going to throw up. Yeah. Literally, I thought he was going to throw up. It was, it was disturbing.

It was. Well, Chris, again, sir, I want to thank you so much for taking this time out of your day away from your family just to be on this show tonight.

So I truly mean that. I truly appreciate you, appreciate the work that you do.

I pray that you keep up the good work. I'm going to be praying for you on a regular basis. Thank you.

I promise I won't be texting, messaging you like I have been leading up to this, trying to bug you.

I wasn't trying to bug you, but I just want to make sure that I get all my ducks in a row when we, when we do this.

Well, brother, thank you for having me on. It's always my pleasure to be on podcasts and that are like -minded and, you know, that are preaching and stand on the word of God.

And so the honor has been mine, Claude. And so I'm, I'm blessed to, that we have, that God has given technology to meet with believers from across the world and be encouraged and edified.

And so as, as much, it was a joy for you. It was, I feel like Paul in Romans one, it was a mutual encouragement.

And so thank you for having me. All right. You're welcome.

You're welcome. And you're welcome back anytime. You just say, Hey, I'd like to be on and talk about this.

I am going to sit down here and bring you on. If you would, before we play the outro, share the gospel with, with our audience, with the folks who will be hearing and watching this.

Please. My pleasure. Well, the gospel literally means good news and that presupposes there's bad.

And the bad news is that we have a broken God's law where we have been. Matter of fact, we've been born into this corruption due to our parents.

That's Adam by his, his rebellion. But we daily have broken God's law and word, thought, and deed.

And the Bible says that God is holy and just. He must punish sin. He cannot just look the other way.

He cannot sweep it under the rug like other gods, like Islam or other, other religions.

God must deal with sin and God and his grace, his love, his goodness and mercy.

He sent his son who Jesus, he lived the perfect life. He never sinned once, not in word, thought or deed.

And the Bible says that God, the father poured out his wrath on his son on behalf of those who would repent and trust in him.

And so in Jesus, he rose from the dead, defeating death. Our God is not dead.

He's alive. He reigns. He's coming back for his people. And the Bible commands for you right now, if you're listening, you have not trusted in Christ.

You must repent. You must turn from your sin, turn to Christ, place your faith solely in his work and what he's done.

We're not saved by anything we do, but solely on his work. And the Bible says, if you do that, you will receive the righteousness of Christ apart from anything you've done.

And that is the good news, my friend, that the gospel is free, but it costs his son everything.

And so our hope is that you would turn to Christ, turn to him for salvation, to be saved from your sin.

Otherwise, the penalty is that God must pour out his wrath on you. And he's chosen to do that in eternal hell forever.

And so trust in Christ and you'll be saved this very day. That's the good news. You don't have to perform some work.

No, you can be saved at this moment listening. And so we hope that you would do that.

That's why we do these podcasts, why we do these shows and hope that you would be saved, those who do not know

Christ. Amen. Thank you, Chris. Thank you again. Thank you all for watching.

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