Callers on Reformed Theology

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Thanksgiving, Perseverance of the Saints, and Upcoming Debates

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line Tuesday morning. Beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona. I guess it's going up toward like 77 today something like that. But nice cool evenings and a little bit still a little bit of warmth left in the day.

That's that's winter around here that's just that's just how it works. I know it's not winter yet it's still fall but anyway it's the 17th of November and that means that we only have two days left until the great non-event of The revelation of the identity of the survey to see evangelical.

Which will be on Thursday I don't know when on Thursday if it has been revealed by the time we have the program. Honestly, I think my response is going to be who I Think I think that's what my response is gonna be what who what are you talking about?

But Given the responses I've gotten on the website from just simply identifying it as an apostate. It's so twisted and so Irrational that I I think this might end up being one of the biggest non events of Of the century it could end up, you know, this guy ends up being like a United Methodist or something.

I'm just gonna laugh. Because it's been known for years if you even believe in the deity of Christ drinking a job at any of the United Methodist schools. So it's like hey, you just caught up with everybody else I guess.

So anyway, that's that's this coming Thursday. One week before Thanksgiving what a wonderful conjugation of events. But anyway, a Turgeon fan has been doing a great job doing a series on texts concerning Thanksgiving on his blog.

I hope you all subscribe to that and have been Watching reading along with him. There are so many texts of Scripture refer to Thanksgiving. It should be not something that we do once a year, but it should be a daily Attitude of the Christian heart.

I think so many of the problems that exist within the fellowship of the church would not exist if We got up in the morning and we're truly thankful for everything that we have. I Only have one thing to play today and we're wide open for phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We finished at least I almost download. I just didn't I almost would feel badly going back to it, but Someone mentioned that they had the audio of that sermon With what came after where my videos where I had gotten the audio ended.

So I guess there might be a little bit more maybe his presentation of his belief in Perseverance of the Saints or something or eternal security or whatever. I've always found that to be incredibly irrational thing that people would Emphasize man's freedom in getting into relationship with Christ, but then once you're in a relationship with Christ, you're stuck.

It really seems to me that if you're if you're gonna emphasize autonomy and getting into the relationship Probably need to continue to emphasize autonomy and whether you stay in that relationship as well.

So I I just I find no meaningful ground For believing in the perseverance of the Saints preservation of Saints one saved always save whatever else you want to call it. And there are differences in how people view those things obviously.

If you do not first believe in the doctrines of grace and have a foundation upon which to believe those things now. Some really exciting stuff going on. I posted over the weekend three responses to Dr. Zakir Naik, I was directed to his appearance on the Dean show and I have Responded to a number of episodes of the Dean show over the years I Have not finished Responding to one of the converts a youth minister who became a Muslim and again, I say to my Muslim friends Youth ministers are not the first people you want to look at as having been experts in Christianity I I remember being in a church in Florida once.

And I was asked to roleplay a Jehovah's Witness and the kids really thought I was Jehovah's Witness. I got the youth minister that I was role-playing with to profess heresy within about 23 seconds of the beginning of conversation.

It was that easy. Okay youth ministers are sort of ministers in training type thing, you know and so I Never finished the series. I would like to eventually get time to go back and finish this the top ten reasons Jesus could never be God by this allegedly former Christian, but I did do an extensive series of videos absolutely taking apart Yusuf Estes His discussion of the Council of Nicaea and the Trinity and just demonstrating the man again, allegedly a former Christian, but If you are that confused about Christianity then clearly you were never a Christian at all.

And I used the illustration, you know if you if you don't even know what the Shahada is if you don't know the five pillars, are you really a Muslim and Yet people who claim to be former Christians. They get a lot of airtime.

Apostasy sells. Well, I mean look at airmen. I did a blog article this morning I had read a summary of the critique of Jesus interrupted by a professor at RTS Orlando and He was pointing out the exact same things that I've pointed out in regards to Bart Ehrman a number of times and But the fact is apostasy sells.

When you're a former something you are immediately Invested with expert status whether you were much of an expert or much you were talking about or not. That's just the way it works so. Yeah, someone Channel just said yeah, that sort of works both directions.

That is converts from various religions are also Immediately exalted to the status of expert whether they are experts or not, and I'll let you figure out who we might be talking about For yourself at that point anyway Exciting stuff.

I'm really really really really hoping Because I posted those Zakir Naik videos We've been provided from multiple sources Confirming information not only how to get hold of the Dean show, but also how to get hold of dr Nike himself and now that those are up.

I want to create a playlist Get the playlist put together and then get a letter that I can email and I can fax all at the same time. Seeking to establish contact of the first time with us anyways for this ministry not through somebody else with dr. Nike and Seeing if we cannot look toward not just a single debate, but a series of debates someplace in the world there aren't very many Muslim lands that would allow me to debate in those lands, but And sadly there are a lot of Western countries anymore that wouldn't allow that either out of fear of well Well of Muslim extremism is what they'd be fearful of they wouldn't be fearful of the Christians.

They'd be fearful the Muslims. That's a fact You know deal with it. It's just the way it is So very excited. I would love to see it happen. It would dr. Nike is probably the best-known Islamic speaker in the world and He truly wears the mantle of Akhmed didot and He presents the very same arguments that Akhmed didot did frequently in the exact same words that Akhmed didot did therefore this is about as close as I'll ever get to debating Akhmed didot and that is something I would love to have done and So pray toward that end pray that the Lord would open that door for us.

I really think that it would be extremely extremely useful also. What's the fellows name Who called in algo would remember because I'll go mentioned it to me. But I'll go remembers everything. So that's just the way it is.

In fact, I think You know how Google has become a verb. I Think we should invent a new word a new verb called algo it we watch algo that. And that's so the same as googling it because they you know, there are certain things Google doesn't know that algo does.

So we should come up the verb I'll go it Just ride together. I'll go it just one word and That's what we'll start doing that. Anyway Who was the fellow who would call in and saying that I needed to debate Michael Brown.

Remember, it was a wasn't a minister somebody back in New York or something. And you know talk about how you know He loves what I do and stuff, but I need to debate Michael Brown and such etc. Is that ringing any bells not ringing any bells with you?

Really? Even ring rang a bell with me. I'm sorry watching to see if algo is even is I'll go even in channel I don't think I'll goes in channel right now. Yeah, he's there. He's just on that Bob's so I'm not sure if he's listening or what but he he mentioned something.

I'll see if he can come up with the the name of the fellow but We've had callers in the past who have said look, you know, you you've pretty much dealt with Norm Geisler and obviously Norm Geisler is not going to debate you and I just saw I was nothing I and I was gonna blog this but once again I've seen another comment on a thread on a web board From George Bryson saying well, I'd be happy to debate James on one subject.

And he won't he won't do a debate where both sides have to You know defend their position. He just wants to debate whether Calvinism Calvinism's God is responsible for evil. That's all he wants to do and he's already made very clear that when I Insist on cross-examination cross-examination is the essence of debate and for some strange reason.

He wants to have a say in how the debate set up which means no cross-examination. So one topic that does not require him to defend anything and no cross-examination. I I don't really consider that being willing to debate but anyway, I was gonna blog that didn't go under that so we've done George Bryson and and You know these various and sundry folks, but Michael Brown is a scholar I think he's from NYU if I recall correctly convert from Judaism expert on demonstration of the Messiah ship of Jesus.

I Moderated the debate between rabbi Shochet and Michael Brown at Arizona State University in 1995 and that's when I first met him. Very nice fellow. I was disappointed honestly that I then heard that he became sort of the chief theologian of the Brownsville revival.

And I Look at that as as a negative thing to be perfectly honest with you. Those of us outside of that movement looked at and went, okay. But he's put out some some pretty good books. He's engaged in a lot of the same areas that I am.

He's actually gonna be debating Bart Ehrman on his book God's problem next year and So he does apologetics and he deals the subject of homosexuality ethics, etc, etc as well as Judaism and and issues along those lines, so I was directed a few well, I think it's right as I got to New York if I recall correctly I was directed to a series of radio programs that he did good things called line of fire and Because he's the president of the fire school of ministry I think is what it's called which I think grew out of the Brownsville stuff.

Anyway. He did two days where he was asking Calvinist to call in and some did and some did an Okay job and some Calvinist should not call radio stations. Let's just put that way. But he also had our minions calling and so he did two days of that and we're gonna listen to one of the calls.

That's why I've got this queued up go listen one of the calls and then he did two days. Where he explained why he is not a Calvinist. I can't find the second day, which unfortunately I listened to it's on my nano.

But that's that's at home. I don't know where the file went. I would have had to pull it out of iTunes and convert it and done a lot of stuff. So anyway One of the things that dr. Brown was saying in the program is that he's going to debate he's gonna get hold of some responsible Representatives of Calvinism and we're gonna debate these issues.

Well Given that one of the areas that I felt that our Sort of debate library is lacking is this area because we can't get people to do this. That's one of the reasons I said, yeah, let's let's debate Roberts and Janice.

He's always wanted to debate this subject. And by the way, I heard back from the church just last evening. And they're very interested in in hosting that debate. Probably in September of 2010. So I need to get hold of Dr. St. Janice on that subject and see if he can schedule that for September for a debate on the doctrines of grace and obviously I think it would be good to Do a two-part debate or maybe debate over two nights?

I defend reform theology in one night and have him defend, you know, maybe purgatory or something like that On on the second night so that it's sort of evens out but You know, I I thought well he's looking for some of the debate as I listened to the programs.

This is saying it's sort of exciting to me as I listen to the programs there was a minimal amount of straw man argumentation especially on dr. Brown's part. In fact, he corrected some of his callers who made some comments that were not exactly shall we say? Accurate in regards to reform theology and That was encouraging to me.

I mean after listening to to the George Bryson's and Dave hunts and Chuck Smith's And Norman Geisler's of the world Where you have just straw man after straw man This is no interest whatsoever and accurately representing The other side and and no interest in listening to what the other side has to say or doing a serious study of the exegesis Offered and such etc.

It was it was rather refreshing to hear someone who His objections are the standard objections, but at least they are Focused and they're not they're not aimed at a straw man. And that that is extremely Encouraging to me really really is so unusual in this field to actually encounter somebody who doesn't just you know Rip and shred but says well look If this is the case then we need to deal with the The injunctions of scripture the commands of scripture to repent and believe when you understand how these are real if someone is not capable of responding to them.

He did go to the standard texts. And by the way, mr. Pierce, I need to send dr Brown a copy of the Potter's freedom ASAP. Remind me of that. I just can not keep up with the details right now. I've got so many things going on.

But I need to get a copy to him ASAP. Because he requested. And it was it was very encouraging to hear all of that and to go we could have a really good debate. We can have a really good encounter and he wants to do it on his program.

I've invited him on the dividing line obviously here on the dividing line. He's on a hard break radio program. So he has Hard breaks he has to take and a number of them per hour. So it cuts down the amount of time you have obviously and you have to hurry things here on the program.

We could go for 90 minutes without even blinking an eye and go for as long as we want basically and So we have the advantage that point so we're going to. I contacted dr. Brown. He Said you know you beat me to the punch.

I was gonna contact you and So we are going to set up a time when I will be on the line of fire as a Calvinist representative will have him here on the program as well and Then I would love to see an opportunity develop maybe out of that where a Larger church that has and I've had a lot of folks over the years say man I wish I could I could you know, we'd love to sponsor a debate between you and Norm Geiser between you and Dave Hunt or whatever.

Well, they won't debate they've they've turned down every opportunity under the Sun so maybe some of those larger churches that would like to Have a what I think would be respectful and ironic debate.

Would want to step forward and say hey, I would like to we would like to have Michael Brown and James White do a debate or a couple of debates on the subject of Calvinism Arminianism, and you know it doesn't really matter, and what does the Bible say etc etc and.

So I'm excited about that and again that would be in 2010 wouldn't it be amazing. We could do that and work something out with soccer Nike in 2010 as well. It'd be quite a quite an interesting year if if that all worked out, but of course we've already got London coming up in February.

We need to get something up on the the website. Because I've sort of invited myself again, so I need to come to our supporters and say well Take a little something to get over there. It's it's not something you can paddle your boat over there, so.

But those are some of the things going on. Let me play this one example, and then take your calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number we also have by the way the Lord willing the Tim Staples appearance toward the end of January here on the program as well and we'll be talking about purgatory and first Corinthians chapter 3 and I'm sure all of you will be excited about that as well because I certainly am that's kind of Dialogue and the debate we like to have.

I want to play one sample here as the the phone lines light up at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. This was one of the calls in fact it was so representative that dr. Brown repeated the call in.

The second program had come in in the first hour. But it sort of laid out a lot of the objections that Armenians have to reform theology. So let's take a listen to this a phone call, and I'd like to make some comments on.

Let's listen to the whole call first, and then I'll walk through it point by point.

John 3:16, Election, and the Meaning of the World

So here's the here's the caller why go ahead about 20 once you truly accept Christ As your Savior you can never lose it. Okay. If you want to call me 20 that's my 20 but a bigger question I have and I've got a nephew who is a strong hardcore Calvinist if God.

Would Nicodemus came to Christ and said what do I have to do? Excuse me, but didn't Christ say for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that who so ever Believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

For God sent his son into the world not to condemn the world, but through him the world would be saved. Now that doesn't sound like well only a few. Now going back to that previous caller that said well You know he only died for the elect.

Well, that is the ideal Way to live. I mean think about it. Oh, well I have no free will to accept or reject God. Then why not live any way you want because if he's chosen you you're gonna change before you die.

So you can live any lifestyle you want it doesn't matter. You have no say in the matter because one day before you die God is gonna turn you around. So when I live that way. And if there was only the elect then why didn't Christ Christ tell that to Nicodemus.

He never said that to Nicodemus. He never said only the elect. I only died for the elect. If Christ didn't die for the entire sins in the world like it says in the Bible. Then he didn't die for anybody.

And I don't believe God creates billions of humans and billions of angels. Simply to throw them into hell and torment them for all eternity. That's not the God. I read about in the Bible. That's not the God of love that sent his only son to die for me and everybody else.

Why would I want to have any part of a God that I have no idea.

If I'm the elect or not Terry Terry hang on we got a break. So there was there was the call there's Terry the Terry the Arminian with his objections, and I thought that was a really representational example of the thinking of most people.

That's what they've heard. That's their tradition and I Just find a very surface level. It doesn't show a lot of understanding of What the issues really are but many people have never been challenged to go beyond just a very surface level.

Oh, yeah. Well, that's what you know. Whosoever is three words in John 3 16. It's Clearly denies the existence of election etc. Etc. That's just how it is. Let's listen to it again and then then If we had the opportunity of responding to Terry and it'd be nice if Terry was listening when I get a chance to address these Things but this is how we we'd respond to Terry why go ahead.

About 20 I believe that once you truly accept Christ As your Savior you can never lose it.

Well, you know immediately I stop right there as I said earlier and and well. Why not if it's your free will to enter into a relationship? Let's use let's use Norman Geisler's example. From the sermon we finished up last time forced love.

You can't have forced love. Remember he was he was likening regeneration where God raises a dead sinner to spiritual life. Takes out that heart of stone gives a hard flesh to use the biblical example to rape to divine rape.

Well, if if you are in a relationship a Loving relationship. Can you not end that relationship if you so choose to do so if one side says no You can't isn't that the exact same type of divine rape? That you're objecting to in election if You have autonomous free will and you enter into that relationship.

Why can't your autonomous free will then get you out of that? Relationship. That would seem to be just an absolute necessity. So it's it's sort of like well, I have the free will to get into it. But then once I've got it I want it to be absolutely secure so that I can't mess it up and lose it that seems to be the idea.

But is that really a consistent position to take? I I don't. On what basis? I mean you don't have particular redemption so that Your sins in particular have been atoned for and so if you've got this universal atonement idea then You could have gone to hell if you hadn't chosen.

So Christ's death does not actually atone for your sins. It makes it possible and Why couldn't that just be the same case, you know? It's sort of stays in that situation till you die. Only when you die, is it determined if you die in faith, then yes Christ's home will cover you.

But if you die outside of faith and it doesn't how would you argue against that? There's there's no election. Even if you talk about election if God knows that you're eventually going to give up on him and you don't want to be in that Relationship anymore.

Let's say some tragedy happens. You know if you've come angry with God and You decide I don't want to have this relationship with God anymore. Well and God in his foreknowledge knew that was gonna happen.

So you wouldn't have been elect anyways, right? I mean again if you have this idea that God acts based upon what he foresees in the future and our Acts precede and determine gods and there's really no way to argue any of this.

Is there? So when he says he's a 20 Calvinist, no, he's not a Calvinist at all. He is a very inconsistent Arminian, but he is an Arminian to the core. He is a synergist and He holds to a position. No self-respecting Arminian would hold to.

Simply because he wants to but doesn't really give us any particular Particularly compelling reason as to why? Okay.

If you want to call me 20 that's my 20 but a bigger question I have and I've got a nephew. Who is a strong hardcore? Calvinist. If God With Nicodemus came to Christ and said what do I have to do? Excuse me, but didn't Christ say.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever Believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Okay, there you have your citation of John 316 and as we have identified over and over and over again the simple citation of John 316 that imports into it by Tradition and that reveals itself by pronunciation External beliefs that are not a part of John 316 is still isogesis and when you take The English word whosoever you make it three different words.

And you are blissfully unaware of the fact that in the original language There is no whosoever. It's posthapis duon. It's everyone believing and That therefore the delimiter and have you ever noticed how they don't emphasize the word believing they emphasize the word whosoever.

They emphasize an English helper word Instead of the actual verb. Actually, it's a participle here in the original language. Isn't that interesting? I? Now I know that that would require them to have exegete the text and and most of them have never exegete the text.

They're just repeating What they've heard from the pulpit. But that's that's what's going on. You're not posthapis duon ice out on in order that everyone believing in him will not perish but have Eternal life.

That's what the text says. The why then do English translations use the word whosoever because When you have pos with a singular Participle what it's saying is you have a group that is Delimited defined by the action that participle in this case believing and when you use pos before that singular What it means is Anyone who is doing that action whosoever is the one believing?

But there's nothing in the text that says every single person has the capacity to believe it simply says That everyone who believes ice out on in him Will not perish but will have eternal life. That's that's a promise, but it's a promise that's limited to believers.

So why then do you also hear in the callers assumption? In his assertions the assumption that cosmos is to be taken only one possible way. Since God loved the world that means every single individual equally.

I think one of the main reasons that people can get away with this and I don't think this would. I'm gonna challenge dr. Brown on this because he's an Old Testament expert. He he knows the Old Testament very very well, and he well knows The particularity of the Old Testament and the fact that God's Promises and his message went to the people of Israel.

It didn't go to the Babylonians. It didn't go the Amorites and the Malachites There is clearly a distinction made on God's part at that point eight seven seven seven five three three four one. We'll continue with this call and your calls Philip and anybody else who calls in right after this break.

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Thank you, and I'll go back to the dividing line very quickly. I will blog this this afternoon. Right off the program. Lord willing, but we have put an item in the shopping cart to help raise funds to get the Four debates from London.

Free the four debates. We should we should come up with them some like little DVDs and put him behind a Jail put him in a jail thing and free the free the DVDs.

Something like that or you could do the clock tower theme. What's a Big Ben, right? Yes.

Yes the London's of the Tower of London symbol of we could we could put pictures of Adnan Rashid and Shabir Ali up in the Tower of London and free free these guys. Haseem King of graphics is on it. He's on it right now.

Yes, I can see his fertile mind or twisted mind whichever one it is. Getting to work on it right now. But as you know, we did eight debates last year that we never have been able to make available in video because The folks that were videotaping them because of the economic downturn haven't been able to pay the videographers for them and That's a real bit of a problem since I'm supposed to be going back over there.

It's sort of hard to arrange debates when you haven't provided the videotapes and things like that to To the folks from the last time around. Of course, we haven't gotten me there. So We're looking at about $500 per debate for the London debates and You know if we had big huge Constituencies of hundreds and hundreds of people at a time buying then that wouldn't be all that big of a deal but these debates especially.

Not exactly going to be the top 10 video purchase type things. For example, it's the two-part debate with Shabir Ali on whether Jesus is prophesied in the Bible and whether Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible and I think it's a vitally important debate.

It was I think it really went well. I would love to have that available on DVD and mp4 download and so on and so forth, but got to pay to get it and So we've just put that up on there and I'll blog that and let folks let folks know about that in that way as well.

Eight seven seven seven five three two, three, four one. We were just looking at John 316 in response to Terry the callers Citation of it but his misrepresentation of it doesn't seem to recognize That there is a limitation.

There is a delimiter right there in the text. To try to expand that out to say ah, here is an assertion of universal ability. Just isn't what the text says and it's not what the next verse says either.

God.

Into the world not to condemn the world, but through him the world would be saved.

Now think about it. Is the world going to be saved through Jesus every single person. If you're gonna say cosmos in John 316 means every single person. Then the purpose that God sent the Sun into the world was that the world might be saved through him.

So it's God's purpose to save every single individual. Is that the position you're taking? Then that seems really weird because He didn't make much of an effort to save the Amorites or the Amalekites.

Did he? Well, that's just people now, well, wait a minute if it's if it's every single person, it's every single person. Where do you get this? Well, it's every single person says Jesus but even then We are just now getting to certain people groups.

What about those people for the past 2 ,000 years? I'm sorry, but this idea that it was God's intention to Equally attempt the salvation of every single person just flies in the face of common sense let alone biblical history and The clear statements concerning the elect of God.

It just I don't even know how you can begin to explain it, but There you there you have the traditional reading of those texts. Now that doesn't sound like Well only a few Who says a few it's as the sand of the sea.

It's the great multitude. That's before the throne of God. That's that's a canard. That's a that's a straw man at that point.

Going back to that previous caller that said well, you know, he only died for the elect. Well, that is the ideal Way to live. I mean think about it. Oh, well. No free will to accept to reject God. Then why not live any way you want because if he's chosen you you're gonna change before you die.