Callers on Reformed Theology

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line Tuesday morning beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona I guess it's going up toward like 77 today something like that But nice cool evenings and a little bit still a little bit of warmth left in the day

That's that's winter around here that's just that's just how it works I know it's not winter yet it's still fall but anyway it's the 17th of November and that means that we only have two days left until the great non event of the revelation of the identity of the survey to see evangelical

Which will be on Thursday I don't know when on Thursday if it has been revealed by the time we have the program

Honestly, I think my response is going to be who I Think I think my response is gonna be what who what are you talking about?

But Given the responses I've gotten on the website from just simply identifying it as an apostate.

It's so twisted and so Irrational that I I think this might end up being one of the biggest non events of Of the century it could end up, you know, this guy ends up being like a

United Methodist or something. I'm just gonna laugh Because it's been known for years if you even believe in the deity of Christ You ain't getting a job at any of the

United Methodist schools. It's like hey, you just caught up with everybody else I guess So anyway, that's that's this coming

Thursday One week before Thanksgiving. What a wonderful conjugation of events

But anyway, a Turgeon fan has been doing a great job doing a series on Texts concerning Thanksgiving on his blog.

I hope you all subscribe to that and have been watching Reading along with him.

There are so many texts of Scripture refer to Thanksgiving It should be not something that we do once a year, but it should be a daily

Attitude of the Christian heart. I think so many of the problems that exist within the fellowship of the church would not exist if We got up in the morning and we're truly thankful for everything that we have.

I Only have one thing to play today and we're wide open for phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

We finished at least I almost download. I just didn't I almost would feel badly going back to it, but Someone mentioned that they had the audio of that sermon

With what came after where my videos where I had gotten the audio ended So I guess there might be a little bit more maybe his presentation of his belief in Perseverance of the

Saints or something or eternal security or whatever. I've always found that to be incredibly irrational thing that people would

Emphasize man's freedom in getting into relationship with Christ, but then once you're in a relationship with Christ, you're stuck

It really seems to me that if you're if you're gonna emphasize autonomy and getting into the relationship Probably need to continue to emphasize autonomy and whether you stay in that relationship as well

So I I just I find no meaningful ground For believing in the perseverance of the

Saints preservation of Saints one saved always save whatever else you want to call it And there are differences in how people view those things obviously if you do not first believe in the doctrines of grace and have a foundation upon which to believe those things now

Some really exciting stuff going on. I posted over the weekend three responses

To dr. Zucker Nike. I was directed to his appearance on the

Dean show and I have Responded to a number of episodes of the Dean show over the years

I Have not finished Responding to one of the converts a youth minister who became a

Muslim and again, I say to my Muslim friends Youth ministers are not the first people you want to look at as having been experts in Christianity I I remember being in a church in Florida once And I was asked to role -play a

Jehovah's Witness and the kids really thought I was Jehovah's Witness I got the youth minister that I was role -playing with to profess heresy within about 23 seconds of the beginning of conversation

It was that easy. Okay youth ministers are sort of ministers in training type thing, you know, and So I Never finished the series.

I would like to eventually get time to go back and finish this the top ten reasons Jesus could never be

God by this allegedly former Christian, but I did do an extensive series of videos

Absolutely taking apart use of Estes His discussion of the

Council of Nicaea and the Trinity and just demonstrating the man again, allegedly a former

Christian, but If if you are that confused about Christianity then clearly you were never a

Christian at all And I used the illustration, you know if you if you don't even know what the

Shahada is if you don't know the five pillars, are you really a Muslim and Yet people who claim to be former

Christians. They get a lot of airtime Apostasy sells. Well, I mean look at airmen. I did a blog article this morning

I had read a summary of the critique of Jesus interrupted by a professor at RTS Orlando and He was pointing out the exact same things that I've pointed out in regards to Bart Ehrman a number of times and But the fact is apostasy cells

When you're a former something you are immediately Invested with expert status whether you were much of an expert on what you were talking about or not.

That's just the way it works so Yeah, someone Channel just said yeah, that sort of works both directions.

That is converts from various religions are also Immediately exalted to the status of expert whether they are experts or not and I'll let you figure out who we might be talking about For yourself at that point.

Anyway Exciting stuff. I'm really really really really hoping Because I posted those

Zakir Naik videos We've been provided from multiple sources confirming information

Not only how to get hold of the Dean show, but also how to get hold of dr Nike himself and now that those are up.

I want to create a playlist Get the playlist put together and then get a letter that I can email and I can fax all at the same time

Seeking to establish contact of the first time with us anyways for this ministry not through somebody else with dr.

Nike and Seeing if we cannot look toward not just a single debate, but a series of debates someplace in the world there aren't very many

Muslim lands that would allow me to debate in those lands, but And sadly, there are a lot of Western countries anymore that wouldn't allow that either out of fear of well

Well of Muslim extremism is what they'd be fearful of they wouldn't be fearful of the Christians. They'd be fearful the Muslims.

That's a fact You know deal with it. It's just the way it is So very excited.

I would love to see it happen. It would dr. Nike is probably the best known Islamic speaker in the world and He truly wears the mantle of Akhmed didot and He presents the very same arguments that Akhmed didot did frequently in the exact same words that Akhmed didot did therefore this is about as close as I'll ever get to debating

Akhmed didot and that is something I would love to have done and So pray toward that end pray that the

Lord would open that door for us. I really think that it would be extremely extremely useful also

What's the fellows name Who called in algo would remember because I'll go mentioned it to me

But I'll go remembers everything. So that's just the way it is. In fact, I think You know how

Google has become a verb. I Think we should invent a new word a new verb called algo it we watch algo that And that's the same as googling it because they you know, there are certain things

Google doesn't know that algo does So we should come up the verb I'll go it

Just ride together. I'll go it just one word and That's what we'll start doing that. Anyway Who was the fellow who would call in and saying that I needed to debate

Michael Brown Remember, it was a wasn't a minister or somebody back in New York or something and you know talk about how you know

He loves what I do and stuff, but I need to debate Michael Brown, etc.

Etc. Is that ringing any bells not ringing any bells with you? Really? Even ring rang a bell with me.

I'm sorry watching to see if algo is even is algo even in channel I don't think I was in channel right now

Yeah, he's there. He's just on that Bob's so I'm not sure if he's listening or what but he mentioned something

I'll see if he can come up with the the name of the fellow but We've had callers in the past who have said look, you know, you

You've pretty much dealt with Norm Geisler. And obviously Norm Geisler is not going to debate you and I just saw

I was that's another thing I and I was gonna blog this but once again I've seen another comment on a thread on a web board

From George Bryson Saying well, I'd be happy to debate James on one subject and he won't he won't do a debate where both sides have to You know defend their position.

He just wants to debate whether Calvinism Calvinism's God is responsible for evil that's all he wants to do and he's already made very clear that when

I Insist on cross -examination cross -examination is the essence of debate and for some strange reason

He wants to have a say in how the debate set up, which means no cross -examination So one topic that does not require him to defend anything and no cross -examination

I I don't really consider that being willing to debate But anyway, I was gonna blog that didn't go under that's what we've done

George Bryson and and you know These various and sundry folks, but Michael Brown is a scholar

I think he's from NYU if I recall correctly convert from Judaism expert on demonstration of the

Messiah ship of Jesus I Moderated the debate between rabbi

Shochet and Michael Brown at Arizona State University in 1995 and that's when

I first met him Very nice fellow I was disappointed honestly that I then heard that he became sort of the chief theologian of the

Brownsville Revival And I look at that as as a negative thing to be perfectly honest with you

Those of us outside of that movement looked at and went, okay But he's put out some some pretty good books.

He's engaged in a lot of the same areas that I am He's actually gonna be debating Bart Ehrman on his book

God's Problem next year and So he does apologetics and he deals the subject of homosexuality ethics, etc, etc

As well as Judaism and and issues along those lines So I was directed a few.

Well, I think it's right as I got to New York if I recall correctly I was directed to a series of radio programs that he did good things called line of fire and Because he's the president of the fire school of ministry

I think is what it's called which I think grew out of the Brownsville stuff anyway He did two days where he was asking

Calvinist to call in and Some did and some did an okay job and some

Calvinist should not call radio stations Let's just put that way But he also had our minions calling and so he did two days of that and we're gonna listen to one of the calls

That's why I've got this queued up go listen one of the calls and then he did two days Why where he explained why he is not a

Calvinist. I can't find the second day, which unfortunately I Listened to it's on my nano, but that's at home.

I don't know where the file went I would have had to pull it out of iTunes and convert it and done all that stuff so anyway

One Of the things that dr. Brown was saying in the program is that he's going to debate he's gonna get hold of some responsible

Representatives of Calvinism, and we're gonna debate these issues well Given that one of the areas that I felt that our

Sort of debate library is lacking is this area because we can't get people to do this

That's one of the reasons I said, yeah, let's let's debate Roberts and Janice he's always wanted to debate this subject and by the way

I heard back from the church Just last evening and they're very interested in in hosting that debate

Probably in September of 2010 so I need to get hold of Dr. St. Janice on that subject and see if he can schedule that for September for a debate on the doctrines of grace and obviously

I think it'd be good to Do a two -part debate or maybe debate over two nights

I defend reform theology in one night and have him defend. You know maybe purgatory or something like that On on the second night so that it's sort of evens out but You know

I I thought well He's looking for some of the debate as I listened to the programs this is saying it's sort of exciting to me as I listen to the programs there was a minimal amount of strawman argumentation especially on dr.

Brown's part In fact he corrected some of his callers who made some comments that were not exactly shall we say

Accurate in regards to reform theology and That was encouraging to me. I mean after listening to the

George Bryson's and Dave hunts and Chuck Smith's And Norman Geisler's of the world

Where you have just straw man after straw man This is no interest whatsoever in accurately representing the other side and and no interest in listening to what the other side has to say

Or doing a serious study of the exegesis offered and such etc. It was it was rather refreshing to hear someone who

His objections are the standard objections, but at least they are Focused and they're not they're not aimed at a straw man and that that is extremely

Encouraging to me really really is so unusual in this field to actually encounter somebody who doesn't just you know

Rip and shred, but says well look If this is the case then we need to deal with the

The injunctions of scripture the commands of scripture to repent and believe when you understand How these are real if someone is not capable of responding to them?

He did go to the standard texts and by the way, mr. Pierce, I need to send dr

Brown a copy of the Potter's freedom ASAP Remind me of that. I just cannot keep up with the details right now.

I've got so many things going on But I need to get a copy to him ASAP Because he requested and It was it was just very encouraging to hear all of that and to go we could have a really good debate

We can have a really good encounter and he wants to do it on his program I've invited him on the dividing line obviously here on the dividing line.

He's on a hard to break radio program. So he has Hard breaks he has to take and a number of them per hour

So it cuts down the amount of time you have obviously and you have to hurry things here on the program

We could go for 90 minutes without even Blinking an eye and go for as long as we want basically and So we have the advantage that point so we're going to I contacted dr.

Brown he said, you know, you beat me to the punch I was gonna contact you and So we are going to set up a time when

I will be on the line of fire as a Calvinist representative we'll have him here on the program as well.

And Then I would love to see an opportunity develop maybe out of that where a

Larger church that has and I've had a lot of folks over the years say man I wish I could I could you know

We'd love to sponsor a debate between you and Norm Geiser between you and Dave Hunt or whatever. Well, they won't debate

They've they've turned down every opportunity under the Sun so maybe some of those larger churches that would like to Have a what

I think would be respectful and ironic debate Would want to step forward and say hey,

I would like to we would like to have Michael Brown and James White do a debate or a couple of debates on the subject of Calvinism Arminianism and you know, it doesn't really matter and what does the

Bible say, etc, etc And so I'm excited about that. And again, that would be in 2010

Wouldn't it be amazing we could do that and work something out with soccer Nike in 2010 as well It'd be quite a quite an interesting year if if that all worked out, but of course, we've already got

London coming up in February We need to get something up on the the website

Because I've sort of invited myself again, so I need to come to our supporters and say well Take a little something to get over there.

It's it's not something you can paddle your boat over there. So But those are some of the things going on Let me play this one example and then take your calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number we also have by the way the

Lord willing the Tim Staples appearance toward the end of January here on the program as well and we'll be talking about purgatory and first Corinthians chapter 3 and I'm sure all of you will be excited about that as well because I certainly am that's kind of dialogue and the debate we like to have

I Want to play one sample here as the the phone lines light up at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

This was one of the calls in fact, it was so representative that dr. Brown repeated the call in The second program had come in in the first hour

But it sort of laid out a lot of the objections that Armenians have to reform theology

So, let's take a listen to this phone call and I'd like to make some comments on Let's listen to the whole call first and then

I'll walk through it point by point. So here's the here's the caller Why go ahead? Yeah about 20 %

I believe that once you truly accept Christ as your

Savior you can never lose it Okay If you want to call me 20 % that's my 20 % but a bigger question

I have and I've got a nephew who is a strong hardcore Calvinist if God Would Nicodemus came to Christ and said what do

I have to do? Excuse me, but didn't Christ say for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten

Son that who so ever Believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life

For God sent his son into the world not to condemn the world, but through him the world would be saved

Now that doesn't sound like well only a few Now going back to that previous caller that said well, you know, he only died for the elect

Well, that is the ideal Way to live. I mean think about it.

Oh, well I have no free will to accept to reject God Then why not live any way you want because if he's chosen you you're gonna change before you die

So you can live any lifestyle you want. It doesn't matter You have no say in the matter because one day before you die

God is gonna turn you around So why not live that way? And if if if there was only the elect then why didn't cry

Christ tear out the Nicodemus? He never said that the Nicodemus he never said only the elect

I only died for the elect If Christ didn't die for the entire sins in the world, like it says in the

Bible Then he didn't die for anybody And I don't believe God creates billions of humans and billions of angels

Simply to throw them into hell and torment them for all eternity. That's not the God I read about in the

Bible That's not the God of love that said his only son to die for me and everybody else

Why would I want to have any part of a God that I have no idea if I'm the elect or not

Terry Terry hang on we got a brick So there was there was the call.

There's Terry the Terry the Arminian With his objections, and I thought that was a really representational example of the thinking of most people that's what they've heard that's their tradition and I just find it very surface level.

It doesn't show a lot of understanding of What the issues really are but many people have never been challenged to go beyond just a very surface level.

Oh, yeah Well, that's what you know. Whosoever is three words in John 316. It's Clearly denies the existence of election etc.

Etc. That's just how it is. Let's listen to it again and then then If we had the opportunity of responding to Terry and it'd be nice if Terry was listening when

I get a chance to address these Things but this is how we we'd respond to Terry why go ahead

About 20 % I believe that once you truly accept Christ As your

Savior you can never lose it Well, you know immediately I stop right there as I said earlier and and well

Why not if it's your free will to enter into a relationship? Let's use let's use Norman Geisler's example

From the sermon we finished up last time forced love You can't have forced love

Remember he was he was likening regeneration where God raises a dead sinner to spiritual life takes out that heart of stone gives a heart of flesh to use the biblical example to rape to divine rape well, if if you are in a relationship a

Loving relationship. Can you not end that relationship if you so choose to do so if one side says no

You can't isn't that the exact same type of divine rape? That you're objecting to in election

If you have autonomous free will and you enter into that relationship, why can't your autonomous free will then get you out of that?

relationship That would seem to be just an absolute necessity

So it's it's sort of like well, I have the free will to get into it But then once I've got it,

I want it to be absolutely secure so that I can't mess it up and lose it That seems to be the idea. But is that really a consistent position to take?

I I don't on what basis? I mean you don't have particular redemptions so that your sins in particular have been atoned for and so if you've got this universal atonement idea then

You could have gone to hell if you hadn't chosen. So Christ death does not actually atone for your sins. It makes it possible

And why couldn't that just be the same case, you know? It's sort of stays in that situation till you die

Only when you die is it determined if you die in faith, then yes Christ's home will cover you

But if you die outside of faith, and it doesn't how would you argue against that? There's there's no election

Even if you talk about election if God knows that you're eventually going to give up on him and you don't want to be in that Relationship anymore.

Let's say some tragedy happens. You know if you become angry with God and You decide I don't want to have this relationship with God anymore

Well and God in his foreknowledge knew that was going to happen. So you wouldn't have been elect anyways, right? I mean again if you have this idea that God acts based upon what he foresees in the future and our

Acts precede and determine God's and there's really no way to argue any of this is there So when he says he's a 20 %

Calvinist, no, he's not a Calvinist at all He is a very inconsistent Arminian, but he is an Arminian to the core he is a synergist and He holds to a position.

No self -respecting Arminian would hold to Simply because he wants to but doesn't really give us any particular

Particularly compelling reason as to why? Okay If you want to call me 20 % that's my 20 % but a bigger question

I have and I've got a nephew who is a strong hardcore Calvinist if God When Nicodemus came to Christ and said what do

I have to do? Excuse me, but didn't Christ say for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever

Believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life Okay, there you have your citation of John 3 16 and as we have identified over and over and over again the simple citation of John 3 16 that imports into it

By tradition and that reveals itself by pronunciation

External beliefs that are not a part of John 3 16 is still eisegesis and when you take

The English word whosoever you make it three different words And you are blissfully unaware of the fact that in the original language

There is no whosoever it's pass hapist you own it's everyone believing and That therefore the delimiter and have you ever noticed how how they don't emphasize the word believing they emphasize the word whosoever

They emphasize an English helper word Instead of the actual verb actually it's a part of simple here in the original language

It isn't that interesting I Now I know that that would require them to have exegete the text and and most of them have never exegete the text

They're just repeating What they've heard from the pulpit, but that's that's what's going on You're not pass hapist you own ice out on in order that everyone believing in him will not perish but have

Eternal life, that's what the text says the why then do

English translations use the word whosoever because When you have pass with a singular

Participle what it's saying is you have a group that is delimited defined by the action that participle in this case believing and when you use pass before that singular what it means is

Anyone who is doing that action whosoever is the one believing

But there's nothing in the text that says every single person has the capacity to believe it simply says

That everyone who believes ice out on in him Will not perish but will have eternal life.

That's that that's a promise, but it's a promise that's limited to believers So why then do you also hear in the callers assumption

In his assertions the assumption that cosmos is to be taken only one possible way

Since God loved the world. That means every single individual equally I think one of the main reasons that people can get away with this and I don't think this would

I'm gonna challenge dr. Brown on this because he's an Old Testament expert He he knows the

Old Testament very very well and he well knows The particularity of The Old Testament and the fact that God's Promises and his message went to the people of Israel.

It didn't go to the Babylonians It didn't go the Amorites and the Malachites There is clearly a distinction made on God's part at that point 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

We'll continue with this call and your calls Philip and anybody else who calls in right after this break

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Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you And we'll go back to the dividing line very quickly

I will blog this this afternoon Right off the program Lord willing, but we have put an item in the shopping cart to help raise funds to get the

The four debates from London free the four debates we should we should come up with them some like little

DVDs and put him behind a Jail put him in a jail thing and free the free the

DVDs Something like that or you could do the clock tower theme. What's a Big Ben, right? Yes Yes the

London's of the Tower of London symbol of we could we could put pictures of Adnan Rashid and Shabir Ali up in the

Tower of London and free free these guys Haseem king of graphics is on it.

He's on it right now. Yes, I can see his fertile mind or twisted mind, whichever one it is

Getting to work on it right now But as you know, we did eight debates last year that we never have been able to make available in video because the folks that were videotaping them because of the economic downturn haven't been able to pay the videographers for them and That's a real bit of a problem since I'm supposed to be going back over there it's sort of hard to arrange debates when you haven't provided the videotapes and things like that to To the folks from the last time around Of course, we haven't gotten me there.

So We're looking at about $500 per debate for the

London debates and You know if we had big huge Constituencies of hundreds and hundreds of people at a time buying then that wouldn't be all that big of a deal but these debates especially

Not exactly going to be the top 10 video purchase type things For example, it's the two -part debate with Shabir Ali on whether Jesus is prophesied in the

Bible and whether Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible and I think it's a vitally important debate

It was I think it really went well I would love to have that available on DVD and mp4 download and so on so forth, but got to pay to get it and So we've just put that up on there and I'll blog that and let folks let folks know about that in that way as well

Eight seven seven seven five three two three four one. We were just looking at John 316 in response to Terry the callers

Citation of it but his misrepresentation of it doesn't seem to recognize That there is a limitation.

There is a delimiter right there in the text To try to expand that out to say ah, here is an assertion of universal ability

Just isn't what the text says and it's not what the next verse says either God Into the world not to condemn the world, but through him the world would be saved

Now think about it. Is the world going to be saved through Jesus every single person If you're gonna say cosmos in John 316 means every single person

Then the purpose that God sent the Sun into the world was that the world might be saved through him

So it's God's purpose to save every single individual. Is that the position you're taking? then that seems really weird because He didn't make much of an effort to save the

Amorites or the Amalekites. Did he? Well, that's just people now, well, wait a minute if it's if it's every single person, it's every single person

Where do you get this? Well, it's every single person says Jesus but even then We are just now getting to certain people groups.

What about those people for the past 2 ,000 years? I'm sorry, but this idea that it was God's intention to Equally attempt the salvation of every single person just flies in the face of common sense let alone biblical history and The clear statements concerning the elect of God It just I don't even know how you can begin to explain it, but there you there you have the traditional reading of those texts

Who says a few it's as the sand of the sea it's the great multitude that's before the throne of God That's that's a canard.

That's a that's a straw man at that point Previous caller That said well, you know, he only died for the elect

Well, that is the ideal Way to live. I mean think about it. Oh, well

No free will to accept to reject God Then why not live any way you want because if he's chosen you you're gonna change before you die

That's exactly what the Mormons would throw at us And of course that ignores the biblical teaching that Paul gives to us in Romans chapter 6

In fact, yeah, it's interesting Paul had to respond to the exact same objection Which means if you are making the same objections that Paul responds to that means you're on the wrong side of the argument my friend

How shall we continue in sin the grace might increase? Let's just keep sending the grace.

How shall we continue that we've died to sin. How shall we and longer live in it? That's how he starts six chapter

Romans So if you're making the same objections that the people opposing the Apostle Paul are making yeah might want to consider

Changing your viewpoint on that but it is not a meaningful argument to say

Oh, well, that's easy because you just live any way you want to yeah, that's exactly what Calvinism produced in the

Puritans and Jonathan Edwards and people like that, but then again

Knowledge of church history is not real big amongst anybody these days. So so you can live any lifestyle you want.

It doesn't matter You have no say in the matter because one day before you die God is gonna turn you around So why not live that way as if you could have knowledge of your own election in that way

We are called to make our calling election sure and how do we do that by loving the brethren by living a life of holiness?

Etc, etc This is not even a meaningful argument at this point Yeah, but he did he did show up in the synagogue

Capernaum and Preached a whole sermon that drove over 5 ,000 people away from him

And he kept saying to them you cannot come to me unless it has been granted to you by my father and he talked about a people who had been given to him by the father and that he would lose none of them and in John chapter 10

Jesus said the Jews There are my sheep and then there are people that aren't my sheep and you're not my sheep the shepherd lays down his life of the sheep, but you're not my sheep and In his high priestly prayer in John 17,

I pray not for the world. I pray for those you've given me out of the world So it seems like he did address a lot of these issues and it doesn't sound like Terry is really done

Due diligence to to check out both sides if Christ didn't die for the entire

Sins in the world like it says in the Bible Then he didn't die for anybody Okay, then

Terry if Christ has atoned for all the sins of all people upon which basis is anyone ever condemned if John Smith Christ has born in fullness the wrath of God due to all of his sins including unbelief in His body upon the tree then why is

John Smith? undergoing punishment in hell for eternity it's just it's just a simple question and and Given the relationship of atonement to the work of the high priest

When when the high priest offers the sacrifice His work is not done.

He then takes the blood into the Holy of Holies and he sprinkles it on on the mercy seat the covering kaffir and so that would connect

Christ's work of intercession with the offering of his atoning sacrifice

But the Bible says that that he appears in the presence of God for us not for the whole world or Are you going to say that Christ does appear in the presence of God for every single person in the world?

and so Jesus is right now pleading for the salvation of billions of people that will actually never be saved and Was he was he pleading for the salvation of people who are now under the wrath of God and he failed in his in His attempt is is that really where you want to go

Terry? or Are we in a situation here where Terry has never been challenged on any of these issues?

has never been challenged to think through what the message of the book of Hebrews is in regards the role of the high priest and Intercession and Christ's ability to save to the uttermost seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them

He obtained eternal salvation Hebrews 9 not made it a possibility He didn't make a savable that's not obtaining eternal salvation just some of the questions that You would hope in solid

Bible -believing churches would be raised on a fairly regular basis And I don't believe God creates billions of humans and billions of angels

Simply to throw them into hell and torment them for all eternity That's one of the real common ones.

I Will not believe in a God that just simply creates people throw them into hell as if anyone does believe in a

God that simply Creates people to throw them into hell if that was the case, then why does he allow them to live their lives?

Why does he make his son to shine upon them and give them good days and health and long life if that's all he wanted to Do clearly no one believes that it's a straw man again

So, let's let's remove the straw man and at least address the actual issue and that is well God still created people

Knowing he was not going to save them. Yes for his purposes. Remember Romans 9 What about Pharaoh for this reason

I raised you up To what to try to save you To try to convince you to be a good man

Know that my name my power might be proclaimed through all the whole earth. Oh God can't do that.

Well, okay now now your problem. It really is with God Now your problem really is with a sovereign

God. No, no question about that, but Need to understand what your objection is really aimed at.

That's not the God I read about in the Bible That's not the God of love that said his only son to die for me and everybody else

I would I want to have any part of a God that I have no idea if I'm the elect or not

If I'm the elect or not well, you have something called the

Bible and you have something called the Spirit of God and Christ Church and When you love the brethren and when you honor

God's Word and when you seek to live a holy life These are given to you as Evidences of your relationship with God and that's how you make your calling an election.

Sure. So Terry Help Tara will be listening when we get a chance to discuss these things eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Let's talk with Philip. Hi Philip. How you doing? Great doctor. How are you good? You know it

I like what a Sinclair Ferguson says about this do not talk to me about Limited atonement unless you're a universalist, right?

Because everybody limits it in some form or another but it seems like a lot of people

When it comes to the Bible suffer a memory lapse in regards to at least two areas the

Passover Didn't when the Passover occurred with the Israelites or the

Hebrews notified To tell the Egyptians to put the blood

Over their doorpost and The day of the day of atonement when the priests went into once a year the

Holy of Holies He attuned for the sins of the people not for the sins of all the nation

That's right, and that's the same God of the Bible, but we get to the New Testament and now for some reason

Christ has to shed his blood for every person head for head. That's not been the way

God has consistently attuned It's a type in a shadow But this idea of Christ shedding his blood was not so he had a right to condemn people and in John 3 18 they were condemned already and it is true that he came to say, but he came to save a particular people

And I just think people suffer a memory lapse. This is how God has always worked. That's it's not So beside memory lapse it is it is the fact that many many

Christians are canonically challenged They only have 27 books in their canon. The Old Testament is viewed as a storybook

It's where you read about David and Goliath and you draw pictures and use crayons But it's not scripture in that sense.

It has a lower canonical status and so people don't even think about I mean How many of the people flooding into Joel Osteen's Super Church on Sunday morning have a clue?

What was going on on Yom Kippur? Run of them none of them do say There's not even challenge to think about these things.

It's not a memory loss It's you have to have heard it once for it to be a memory loss and very well Well, that's true.

But when I read the Bible the blood is very powerful. It's efficacious It's in Romans forget the chapter and verse we are justified by his blood and these arguments

It either died for all or none are silly arguments and they're not scriptural. The blood is efficacious

It's powerful and they demote the idea of the blood and they demote the idea of God He has to savor.

Why does he have to do that? It's not the God of Scripture Romans 9 clearly says who are you to be it's not fair It's it's unjust who were you the creative person to begin to thumb your nose and object and it's just it's a position

It's an egocentric position as if God has to take counsel from man Well, Philip, let me just let me just throw out.

Dr. Brown's response that because he did mention he he admitted that that Romans 9 is saying to the

Jewish people look, you know your own history demonstrates God's sovereignty in that matter, but he Takes that into Hebrew Romans chapter 11 and says well this all wraps up as saying

God's gonna have mercy on all and so There there you have it

The the Paul's own interpretation of Romans 9 comes in Romans 11 when he has mercy on all now, of course at that point

I say well, I think that needs to be understood in context. He's talking about Jews and Gentiles he's talking about the the grafting in and the and the divine and all and the wild olive tree and all the rest that stuff the all has to be

Jews and Gentiles the whole world that's the only logical way to take all in that context

Either that or you say the fulfillment of prophecy. Yeah, the Gentiles are going to be brought the light

Yeah, so yeah, I agree Philip and I appreciate appreciate you sharing your thoughts of this today.

Yeah. Thank you Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the number that Jim down in Rio Rico called?

Hey Jim, how you doing? Hey, pretty good. Dr. Way. How are you doing? Good good so that's an interesting

Text of Scripture, which I've given a lot of thought to It seems to me that The divorce from this context first of all, it's an explanation of the previous verse 14 and 15

Makes a statement concerning the redemptive work of Christ as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness

So must the Son of Man be lifted up that whoever believes in him would have eternal life for God Of the world stating another statement concerning his redemptive work aren't the henna clauses there aren't they a

Resultant perfect purpose clauses and well in 315 and 316 they are identical to each other.

They're the exact same phrase henna pass happest you on and it is the the it is the

Expression of the text that The Person who believes

The result of their belief is they have eternal life That that isn't aren't the henna clauses in verse 17 result in purpose to skipping down to 17 here

Yes, uh -huh so that God sending his son

Into the world. I take the the cosmos there to be the habitable world Is to save the world is is not the world the same world that is in view in verse 16

Yeah, I'd be pretty hard to have a world changing a whole lot within one within one or two sentences

There there's no question about that The the Assertion at the end of verse 17, but in order that the world might be saved through him again

What's the what's the delimiting factor in verses 15 16 and 17 is that anyone in the world who believes

So there there is there is the the limitation the text itself provides there's nothing here

It's really a Western way of thinking to even be arguing with folks about well

This means every single human being who's ever lived because I can't imagine that the writer would have would have even contemplated such a

Interpretation of his words, but that's the very interpretation that's forced upon his words by so many people today

Doesn't 18 to look do you limit it even more? See you believes in him is not judged

Yeah, he does not believe has been judged already Yeah, well verse 17 looks at the aggregate verse 18 looks at the the particular

Oh, there's no question that this text is consistent in Drawing a strong distinction between the one believing and of course

It's it also is important to point out as I've pointed out in regards to The use of this phrase in John 6 and this is not a one -time tip of the hat type belief

This is a present -tense participle The one believing and that is very much description of a true believer in the gospel of John and so the distinction that is being drawn is between that true believer and the one who abides under the wrath of God and has been judged already and and These these themes will be picked up later

And for example in John chapter 5 the one who believes in me shall not be judged was already passed out of death in the life

There's there's a lot of expansion upon that but unfortunately most the time John 3 isn't allowed to have it's the have as its

Canonical context the rest of the book of John and so you can't expand upon those themes and explain them later in in that gospel doesn't doesn't each

Result in perfect clause verse 15 verse 16 verse 17. Don't they parallel one another?

What do you mean by parallel one another? well you Well in Hebrew thought

I mean to to make a point you make a parallel assertion and you

You you make a statement concerning the redemptive work work of Christ concerning Moses and in the

Son of Man being lifted up and then you have a statement there for God so loved the world and then you have a

Statement that God sent his Son of the world and each of them have a resultant purpose purpose clause the resultant purpose clause for the

Son of Man being lifted up is that everyone who believes as eternal life the resultant purpose clause for God -loving the world is that whoever believes in him should not perish the resultant purpose clause for God sending his

Son into the world Is to save the world in other words it he?

Accomplishes the result just as he accomplishes the result of those who believe that he imparts to them eternal life

This world therefore that he comes to save is an actual world that he saves Yeah, I think you could make that argument

You you certainly have John making a point through the language in the sense that he's using the

Hinnok clauses. He's using hapist you own consistently throughout

The the Contrast is made between the one believing and the one not believing which it continues

The very same form and how that person has been judged already So there's there's a there's a consistent use of language all the way through that would allow you to assert a continuing context and the fact that you have two different groups in view and One is judged one is not the difference is the one believing and that it is

God's purpose that the coming of the Sun would Provide the foundation for those who believe to be the recipients of eternal life

There's really no question about that and then it moves into the subject of the judgment of the light

Because lights come into the world men love darkness rather than the light You know that has to be included, but it rarely is because reading into the term whosoever they read out the biblical doctrine of man and The biblical doctrine that man runs from the light and that man hides in the light and that man in and of himself will not ever believe in Jesus Christ, but of course many of them just try to cover that over with some

Philosophical concept of prevenient grace or something a grace that tries to save but actually can't save anyone in of itself

Which is not a biblical concept at all. So Yeah when you can get into the text, but I think it's one of the reasons it's it's difficult for me to to get people like Dave Hunt or some of these others to actually engage these texts because they know

That this is what the cross -examination would be about right and they don't want to go there They don't want to go there

They want to they want to stay with their traditional reading the text and not be asked to demonstrate that the tradition

Actually comes from the text itself How would you understand why can't the world there be delimited to the elect?

Well, I think that the the love of God is expressed in in such a way

That it's it's wider than that. I think it's referring to Since it says all the world might be saved through him

I think you've got Jews and Gentiles there I I just don't see the specificity of it that right there in that particular text

I think you see it coming else elsewhere, but Jim as you can hear in the background, that is the music we are out of time

Thank you for your call from down in Rio Rico. And thanks for listening today to the dividing line Lord will and we'll see you on Thursday with the big news or the non news.

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