Pastors' Panel Podcast

Truth in Love Network

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

All right, thank you guys for joining and watching the pastors panel podcast So thankful that you're joining us and we hope you you learn a lot

00:07

We want to glorify god here as we we gather together and we we sharpen one another. Um, let's pray as we get started father we come to you and and We humbly bow to your presence acknowledging that um, all good things come from you and and we cannot

00:26

We can do nothing apart from christ and so we we pray that you would um use this time together

00:32

Together to honor and glorify yourself Would you help us to understand that we may know you and love you more than we we may love jesus more

00:40

And would you use this time together to um? to help us Uh reach out and edify our communities and and let others see

00:49

Um what it's like to have a conversation among brothers in a loving way That honors and glorifies you

00:57

Father we we pray all these things in jesus name. Amen. All right.

01:03

Um To get things started. We have a new face with us and I want to allow him an opportunity to Introduce himself.

01:11

So brother jay, let us know who you are Okay, i'm jay rogers. I'm from boston massachusetts area.

01:18

Originally. I've lived in florida half my life Uh, I was involved with a ministry called the forerunner which was started with maranatha campus industries.

01:26

I was only with that group for about several years and then um, we ministry kind of decentralized dispersed and I worked with the forerunner, um, pretty much on my own with some people that I Knew that were part of that church for about 10 years.

01:43

I did Missionary outreach we were in russia and ukraine did publications there Um got involved with video productions and um, i've been doing that ever since I work full -time as an english teacher

01:55

And i'm really interested in um, biblical apologetics biblical worldview and i've got interested in the topic of eschatology about um,

02:06

I would say 20 years ago when I read a book on post -millennialism and I realized like that this is Probably something

02:11

I can grasp very easily And it took me about another 10 years to come to a preterist point of view

02:17

And then I really wanted to try to figure it all out But I went very slowly. My main area of study was daniel because I felt like everybody

02:24

Starts with revelation and they come to a view of that and then they kind of work backwards and I thought like well because daniel was quoted four times in matthew 24 and is throughout

02:35

The revelation I wanted to make sure that I could get a a working model of daniel from a preterist viewpoint first And then apply that and so i'm kind of like in the process now of working through revelation but I spent about About let's see.

02:51

I don't want to say 20 years, but it was a long time. I spent on dan It was on and off, you know, it was like an 18 month period where I published a book.

02:58

It's a called in the days of these kings uh the book of daniel and preterist perspective

03:04

And that's been my most popular book that i've done. It's not on the level of hal lindsey You know millions and millions of copies sold, but it's you know

03:12

I think it's getting close. I think it's I know it's hundreds and maybe maybe a thousand i'm not sure but it's it's a significant amount for a self -published book

03:21

And a lot of people I i've made contact with a lot of people that have been very impacted by it Which i'm thankful for so Well, i'm i'm honored and I think it's a privilege that you took time to join us tonight um

03:35

And and as I told you earlier, I want to thank you for your work on on that book for daniel

03:40

Because it is um i've used it as as we've been working through daniel dan and I have and it's been a really encouragement and it's very

03:50

Readable understandable and so i've been thankful for your work So you're talking about the long version that's 720 page version

03:59

No, the the one that's um available on your website for runner Okay, so you can yeah, you can read the first 150 pages on my website.

04:07

You just go to forerunner .com and I also did an audio version of it that I didn't do the whole 720 pages because I just felt like You know,

04:17

I I have other things I want to do with my life, but I I um did 150 pages I read it and I have the words on the screen so you can

04:24

Um read it through it's exactly what's in the book And then if you're really interested, I would say get the rest of the book I have another version that's shorter that kind of like There are a lot of questions that people have since I published the book and some other materials that I I kind of dealt with some other things

04:39

Kind of a repeat of some materials But then some other things that came up and that one is just called the prophecy of daniel and prairie's perspective

04:46

Okay And I would encourage everyone to check out forerunner .com and check out brother jay's stuff.

04:53

It's fantastic Uh everything that i've seen Um, and and just a little introduction on the the rest of the brothers here that i've come to know and appreciate um, you know, we're not trying to Become podcast famous.

05:06

We're just individuals trying to reach our community for jesus because we love them and we love people and so that that's what we're about and our

05:14

Topic thus far has been eschatology. We've been walking through matthew 24 And let's jump right in stemming from Last last conversation that we had and I wanted to start off here.

05:27

Um, we all come from Somewhat different perspectives i'm thankful to have pastor jonathan on with us because um, he he's the least

05:40

Jonathan you're you're not post meal at all. He's coming from a different perspective. So he's able to um direct us and um

05:49

Give give us some directions some questions that You know are general questions that people may have that are you know, freshly new to partial preterism to post meal and and um, and so we can

06:02

We're not we're not a bunch of crazies. We're not heretics and we can Lovingly have that conversation with one other and these are kind of questions that jonathan brought to our attention.

06:14

So The first one is the the question question of replacement theology and um

06:21

So that I don't um hog all the airtime here I'll let I'll let one of you guys jump in and talk about replacement theology from my understanding um

06:31

It it's a re it's a reactionary from the pre -meal

06:38

Kind of an accusational thing um

06:46

Is that correct? It isn't it not not too many people really believe replacement theology.

06:52

There may be some out there But when it's pointed towards partial preterism or post meal folks, um, it's more accusationary

07:00

And that's that's not necessarily what we we believe. So can somebody touch on? Um, What the pre -meal dispensation means

07:09

When they make that accusation towards us where they get that from why they think we are replacement theologians

07:18

Well from what i've gathered, um really replacement theology uh was um

07:29

Kind of the response from the dispensational view and um saying somehow that that the church has um replaced israel and I I really from My studies

07:42

I see that that it's the exact opposite that um

07:48

Actually, the dispensational view is the replacement theology uh placing uh ethnic israel israel at the the center of bible prophecy when uh, you go through like jose 11 matthew 2 sepon i mean you go through all of them that um, there's not this uh,

08:10

God divorces israel uh That that from their view that um in the end times god has this special covenant with ethnic israel and that would just really um kind of uh, really mess up the the new covenant right there because uh,

08:31

Uh, there's no no longer jew nor greek. No, you know, but we're all one in christ and so, um that that is uh, um so and the reason why uh that we believe, you know as post -millennial, um, uh, our view is that um,

08:51

The the um that that would just that would say that there's two covenants still And that there's actually two brides

08:59

And that's just not not so, you know that the the old covenant has been done away with the new covenant has come

09:06

Uh, jesus is the fulfillment of israel. He did what ethnic israel couldn't do

09:18

And john, feel free to jump in I don't want to take the whole thing Sure, no, that's great guys

09:26

I just I think I think it's important and I was you know I told robert the other night that I just felt like it's important that that we defuse um

09:37

We defuse things that are misunderstandings. Um, and and even what claude was talking about the other night a lot of this

09:44

You know boils down to definitions uh, you know and and and those kind of things and I You know the the word we've used is this is a safe place for us to work through those definitions and ask honest questions without without being attacked, you know, and uh, and so so, um, and you know,

10:07

I think um Before we go any further just just I think doctrinally

10:13

There's things that we'd have fun, uh navigating through as well But when it comes to eschatology even stuff that we talked about the other night

10:20

I don't know a lot of the debate. Um Really boils down to the definitions and not necessarily doctrine or even debating timelines

10:31

And not necessarily doctrine, you know, and so I think we've had a lot of people that divide over non -doctrinal issues, which is you know common among christians sadly, so so So that's what this is about, you know guys, it's about helping defuse and create unity in the body of christ and and then

10:51

You know because I think it is a bad misunderstanding even on um And and even from a dispensational not all dispensations believe that the church has replaced israel either, you know

11:01

And I just think there's there's those Accusations that are made. So so so thank you brother for for sharing that and I think everybody that was on last week echoed

11:11

Uh everything that you just said so And based on what you were saying, uh, pastor jonathan.

11:17

Um I think once we finish matthew chapter 24, um, it will be a good time for us to have a separate video talking about how talking about those doctrines that we unite on that we that we hold fast to that we

11:30

Stand firm on that we unite on that keep us together um, and then also look at um

11:39

The different viewpoints. Um, just like you said we we hold fast to the the same

11:45

Foundational core doctrines But here when it comes to eschatology, like you said, we're looking at different how we view the timeline of eschatology but There's an effect on how we interpret certain verses based on which timeline we look at and I think that would be good um a good video for us to do

12:03

Um to look at how different viewpoints cause us to interpret certain verses differently

12:08

Does anybody have anything else to say on uh replacement theology? Sure I what

12:15

I what I say is that that phrase replacement theology is actually a straw man argument that's based on a misnomer

12:22

If you want to think that through a little bit um Basically the covenantal view of scripture assumes that there is a unity.

12:29

All right there israel is the old covenant church And then the new covenant church in galatians 6 16 says is the israel of god

12:37

Okay, so everything that occurs in the old testament histories is an example To the new covenant church and then every promise of god in the old testament prophecy is to israel

12:46

And the church has one people not two separate people So post -millennialism and the covenantal view doesn't teach that there are two people of god

12:55

Uh, we don't teach that there's two ways of salvation You know one way for self salvation for the jews one way for the gentiles

13:02

We teach there's one way of salvation through jesus christ We don't say that there is the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of salvation

13:09

That's the dispensationalist teaching um the uh Post -millennial or covenantal view says that there's always been one way

13:17

Um to to christ. I mean one way to salvation through christ hebrews 11 spells that out

13:24

Uh, so there's not two dispensations of law and grace or two covenants. There's really one covenant

13:29

It is a new covenant because it's renewed again and again throughout scripture you see this covenant renewal taking place and we we do covenant renewal every time that we

13:39

You know go to church and partake of a sacrament. That's covenant is always being renewed So the book of hebrews shows us that salvation has always been through faith in the atoning work of jesus christ from abel through abraham from moses

13:53

From the time of the prophets all the way through to the time of the new testament saints so That charge replacement theology.

14:01

You can only make that charge when you assume a dispensationalist paradigm

14:08

Right because there's only one people of god one covenant israel is the church the church is israel. There's nothing to replace

14:15

Right, you can only assume replacement theology is a thing if you think that something needs needed to be replaced um, there is obviously a difference between the old covenant and the new covenant, but the people of god, um

14:27

You know, you have to assume that they're two separate people of god in order to think that we would want to replace them so it's just a different worldview, it's not just uh many things i've noticed that with many times talking with Dispensationalists that they assume that you agree with certain premises and it's hard to make an argument without knocking down those those foundations first and most people don't want to go there because that's you know, your whole building's going to come crashing down if you do that, so um, but that's you know, that's been the way of uh, interpretation for You know well over a thousand years and the church has always been viewed that way and it's really

15:07

Dispensationalism that's brought up this other model that says that and most people don't if you were to ask them, you know those questions

15:13

Do you believe that there are two people of god or one? Do you believe that there's two ways of salvation? Almost every dispensationalist is going to say

15:20

I don't believe that And then the question is, you know, what is there to replace them?

15:28

You know, that's usually how I how I how I go at it with people. So To me that kind of where we came into that Go ahead.

15:38

What was going on was 11 some of the conversation we had there with that and and and I don't think any of us would deny the reality of Old testament that there was a people of god clearly and then people of god who were not of god and then and in the grafting in You know, so that that's why the house of corneas was such a miraculous event because now non -jewish people uh are now allowed to have the holy spirit are now allowed to believe and and be saved just as those that were jewish were so it came to the jew first and then to the gentile and and so um so it's and then that's even where some of my research in this, you know was showing even progressive

16:24

Like a progressive Development of that as well, you know of how throughout the whole bible

16:31

There started out with everyone knew the digital word the people of god and with the exceptions of a few um you know, you have rahab and a few others that were non -jewish that were brought in there are a few exceptions, but but it was not the it was not the

16:49

Masses that were invited come all through X which is jesus all for us come all through christ um pretty much it was god establishing the lineage of jesus through the jewish people and so so of course, um so anyways, i'm just Um, sorry, i'm getting a phone call.

17:11

I think it's it's good to be able to refute that that misaccusation you know and to To know that there's unity in this, you know in that um

17:23

At the end of the day there there is there's unity and god still has a um I had a good friend who um was up in cleveland, ohio

17:30

He's now passed on that god still has a very specific and special plan for for israel

17:38

I was going to mention that I had a good friend up in cleveland, ohio that um was part of a

17:44

Charismatic reform church and they started teaching post mill and other you know, basically covenant theology and what happened was um he

17:54

Had supporters that stopped supporting him because someone had someone went to Someone that was really promises.

18:01

Do you know that that this guy he is teaching replacement theology? And uh, you know doesn't he's against israel, you know doesn't and he had to you know, basically, um, really

18:12

Make up a lot of ground by saying that he actually does Uh support israel for political reasons, but not because of the reasons that dispensationalists support israel

18:24

You know, I was in russia Quite a bit. I was I would did 12 short -term mission trips to russia and ukraine

18:30

And um, I constantly ran into a lot of jews a lot. There are a lot of um missioner There's a lot of missions activity among jews in russia.

18:37

Jews are a minority In russia and ukraine those countries and they're a persecuted minority but many of them have come to christ and that's been one of the focuses of missionary activity and one of the um,

18:49

The one of the the focuses of these ministries is once they got saved the russian jews saved

18:55

Was once they were born again couldn't if they were born again for six months A year or whatever.

19:01

Let's get them to israel um, you know, there's Because they felt like well, they're going to be persecuted in russia or whatever

19:08

I said there's less persecution now than there was during soviet communism And my thing was always why you have them as christians.

19:15

Why aren't they staying in russia to evangelize other jews? They're attached to that community and they said well, you know the prophecies

19:23

Have said that there's going to be an in gathering of the jews in the end times And I would say well, you know, which prophecies are those and I would try to explain how many of those prophecies were prior to the restoration

19:35

You know back prior to you know, ezra and nehemiah coming back into the land And that's what that was talking about there and I I always thought that that was a kind of a tragedy because a lot of times they would

19:49

Go into israel as christians and as christian as a jewish christian in israel, you you have to Give up more

19:58

Than as a jewish christian in russia You know Because there's certain there's there's certain things that you cannot do

20:08

In israel, if you say that you're a christian if you're a jew, it's kind of like they're There's more persecution there for a jewish christian than there is in russia

20:15

And so I always thought that that was very odd and it was all because of that dispensationalist paradigm That they were doing that now on the other hand.

20:22

I got to talk to a lot of jewish christians in russia And I got to see firsthand that people that have been raised in that community where they're very isolated where they're persecuted um, they are

20:34

There is an advantage being a jew like paul says You know, they people that have studied hebrew that um have lived in those kind of communities

20:42

They they come at christianity from a different perspective and understand prophecy from a different perspective um, because this is you know

20:51

You know, like they are the people of the book, you know So I as a post -millennialist I believe in that but I don't believe in it for the same reason that a dispensationalist would

21:02

Yeah Just to introduce that topic of romans 11 and then you know, I have other thoughts on that But I'm going to just throw that out there

21:10

Well, that's a good introduction to romans 11 because we want to look at What was brought up last week was luke 21 around verse 24 romans 11 and then revelation chapter 11 which

21:24

Which kind of parallels it looks like luke 21 um, and I think it's an important topic because um

21:31

It ethnic israel the nation of israel, um playing a very important part in in these certain eschatological views and um,

21:44

You know if if somebody's coming from a partial preterist view post -mill view um you know, there there can be some offense taken if you don't think that um, or they may think that you that israel

21:56

Um does not play a special role in in times Theology and so we want to dispel some of that.

22:04

Um, there's misnomers Um as we look at these these verses Yeah, let me just i'm pulling up let someone else talk for a moment

22:14

I want to pull up something that I have to share but anyone any other people have thoughts on that? I'll be good Um, yeah,

22:21

I shared the the oh, i'm, sorry Uh The same thing is is, you know, i'm

22:29

I'm, uh, the only reformed pastor out where I live and I have a lot of calvary chapel, uh out here

22:36

I don't know if you guys know who they are um Dispensational, uh college up the street and so a lot of times when i'm out evangelizing or whatever

22:45

I I always come across uh calvary chapel, uh college students

22:51

And in all their books on revelation and the end times they stay clearly say that any other uh interpretation of the end times is a heresy so When we have the colleges the dispensational colleges that are that are teaching everybody that it's really not showing union

23:11

At all, they look at if we have a post -millennial view of scripture. It's just an automatic shutoff, you know and uh,

23:19

But uh, it's it's it's really I think it's really uh humbling just to sit and listen to their point of view, uh their view on scripture as as we all

23:30

You know try to have that same mind of christ and humility and and come at the scriptures like that, you know, so But yeah, that's what

23:40

I I go through down here all the time, you know I think it'd be

23:47

I think it'd be good to start in in luke 21 if that's okay Yes, sir, because um as as we were looking at it and the conversation that I was having with with jay earlier, um

24:00

We were seeing how revelation chapter 11. It seems to parallel and and I brought this up last conversation we had and so um

24:09

Whenever we come across Um what i'm getting ready to explain maybe one of you guys can explain to me

24:15

Uh where exactly it is because i'm still an infant in all this i'm still learning myself So i've heard i've heard gary demar explain it this way um

24:25

There's there's a time that the gospel went to the to the jews first and then um, there was there was this overlap

24:35

Where then it went to the gentiles um next and and I was

24:42

I was unsure of when when this took place the timeline of that if these

24:47

Um this time of the gentiles, um in any of these verses, um Was pointing to that that overlap time

24:56

Where that where the gospel goes to the jew first and then and then to the gentiles Um, so if anybody has any insight on that on that timeline

25:04

Where that fits in? I would be grateful for you to let me know uh, but but in luke 21 the the phrase that we're looking at that's

25:13

There's so many things that we could dive into but the phrase that we want to look at Because we want to know what god has to say about israel about the gentiles when it comes to eschatology in times.

25:22

Luke 21 24 um Let me read verse 23 because it kind of gives the context

25:31

And you'll and and those who are watching will be familiar with the language back from matthew 24

25:36

Probably it says woe to the woe to those who are with child those who nurse babes in those days

25:42

For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people in verse 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword

25:50

And will be led captive into all the nations And jerusalem will be trampled underfoot

25:56

By the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled now That's the phrase that we're looking at until the times the gentiles be fulfilled and when

26:05

I read that verse and I saw Where it says, uh, they will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led

26:11

Captive into all the nations and as i've looked at accounts from josephus and and other places where they're talking about all the folks that died there and then all the folks that were taken into captivity i'm like There it is um

26:28

You know, there's the prophecy fulfilled there in in luke 21 24 um so We want to know what the times of the gentiles

26:40

Is to be fulfilled what that means The this um this destruction this captivity

26:48

Um, this area will be trampled underfoot by the gentiles until the gentile time of the gentiles is fulfilled um

26:56

Anybody want to take this on that path dan?

27:06

I'll start us off. Yeah. Okay. Good good Yes, uh, if you look back in 23, it kind of gives you some time indicators

27:13

Yeah, um, it says in those days. I was talking about a specific time It says woe to the the women who are with children of those who are nursing

27:21

Uh great distress upon the land uh And wrath to this people, uh, this people referring to the jews, uh in those days being the days in which the the calamity the

27:33

Tribulation is going to happen uh It's happening which I believe came at the uh destruction of of jerusalem the besieging the overtaking of jerusalem and then the destruction of the temple so in those times

27:48

Point, uh, they will fall by the edge of the sword. They'll be like captive Uh into all nations talking about when they actually uh entered the city

27:58

Dismantled thing. I mean it was a whole horrid time Uh, and jerusalem will be trampled underfoot

28:05

By the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled so That that Event is going to last as long as the times of the gentiles

28:20

Which until when it's going to be fulfilled So if you just run through the time indicators, it seems to indicate that the time of the gentiles

28:29

Uh, whatever that means Would have ended when that calamity that's being spoken of in those days ended

28:36

Can I can I ask this question before you go on? um If you're coming from the the pre -millennial dispensational view when when they use the word time of the gentiles

28:48

Are they referring to also? their understanding of the the church age

28:56

I believe that's Yeah, that plays into it, okay, uh because in the in there in the pre -millennial dispensational mindset

29:07

All of this is pushed forward into a seven -year period of tribulation And so they would say that the times of the gentiles is a time

29:16

Which is which is uh, well present and future as the time of the gentiles being

29:22

Uh when gentiles are Are being saved Um, I guess i'm not entirely sure how they they go about that one, okay

29:33

But yeah, it's a completely different understanding because they have a different framework of when these events are going to take place

29:44

Something has to be fulfilled Right, right. So what that's I mean, that's the key is one of times is one of those words that has a very

29:53

You know, it has a very expansive definition that can mean different things in different contexts when you use the word times in the bible um

30:00

But you know just to read this again uh They shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led captive into all nations and jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations

30:08

Until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled Um, like you said that did happen Jerusalem was did fall by the edge of the sword in 80 70.

30:19

Um, and they were led captive into all the nations And jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations until the times of the gentiles shall be fulfilled

30:27

There's two ways of looking at that from a preterist perspective One of the ways is just the times of the gentiles are now it's like there was a there was an age of the jews

30:36

And now is the time of the gentiles Um, there's another way of looking at it Which is saying that it's very similar the dispensational view and it is the 42 months and um like for instance the 42 months in um revelation chapter 11 would be identical with the

30:54

Times of the gentiles that's milton terry wrote a commentary on the apocalypse that we published recently

30:59

Uh, if you want to just google that milton terry commentary on the apocalypse, you can find it uh for sale uh, we took

31:08

A shorter part of a book that was part of a much larger book And we published it separately

31:14

Um, I don't agree with everything that milton terry has to say but this is an interesting very compelling argument that he makes um

31:22

Well, this is what revelation, um 11 1 and 2 says and there was given to me a reed like a rod and the angel stood saying rise

31:29

And measure the temple of god and the altar and them that worshiped therein But the court which is without the temple leave out and measure it not for is given to the gentiles in the holy city

31:40

That they tread under foot 42 40 and two months and that's milton terry says those 42 months is identical

31:48

With what luke chapter 11 is saying Like it's the language is very similar.

31:54

It's the same And so another thing that's interesting is the what is the court of the gentiles?

32:00

there You know, it's um, there is act there. Excuse me. What is it? What was the court in the temple?

32:06

There is an act there was an actual court of the gentiles um in john's time

32:11

And it's mentioned in the bible. Um It says the court which is without the temple leave out measure or not for is given unto the gentiles and what

32:19

I say Is that most likely john was referring to this court of the gentiles king herod? and 20 bc

32:26

He did a reconstruction of the temple and It was like an improvement on the second one that had been built after the exile

32:34

But in addition to all the areas reserved for the people of israel In this temple, there was a space which everyone could enter

32:41

Jews non -jews circumcised uncircumcised um Members are not of the chosen people right and so originally if you think about it the temple was the place where The law of god was going to be preached to the nations even in the old testament.

32:58

You see that Um, there are pilgrimages of non -jews to um to israel

33:05

Um to hear like you hear about the queen of sheba And first kings 10 and second chronicles 9

33:11

Uh, she came with an abundance of riches off of solomon She came to prove him with hard questions, which solomon answered to her satisfaction

33:19

And then that was this idea that the teachers of the law would would assemble there And ask and answer the people's questions about the law okay, so this was a courtyard of the gentiles where Evangelism of non -jews non -jews was supposed to take place

33:35

It also included solomon's porch and that as you know is a place in acts chapter six where Uh, the apostles preached to the nations after the to the jews and anyone that would want to hear about the gospel

33:46

So that was like something that was known to john's audience. All right, there was this you know In the previous chapter, it's kind of interesting john's john's given this uh

33:56

Mandate you must preach again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings um, so it's kind of like there's this reversal where This was going to be the place where the gospel was going to go out to the nations now it's going to become a place where the gentiles are going to Destroy they're going to trample it

34:15

And that in itself becomes a message to the nations that You know that christ is the king it's kind of like a kind of like a very ironic kind of um, a reversal there because Jerusalem did actually become the place where the gospel went forth

34:33

To the nations, but in the process of that the temple was destroyed So it's kind of like it's it's a uh, it's really interesting the language there, but um, you know, that's

34:46

I I'm, this is something that like i'm not i'm not willing to die over this but I think that that's that's my understanding of what um

34:55

Romanist, I mean, excuse me luke chapter 21 where it refers to the time of the gentiles I do believe is speaking of those 42 months that were the roman legions, which were comprised of all the nations were

35:08

You know came into jerusalem and they ended up trampling down the court of the gentiles and destroying the temple before we go any further and John jonathan,

35:20

I want to get your response Welcome, brother. John. Thank you for joining us. Sorry.

35:25

I was late Up here at the church having band practice and I didn't realize what time it was no better place to be

35:35

Oh, we're still here We'll play us something then don't talk about it being

35:43

We've hosted all kinds of stuff we got time we'll turn the system back on No, that's good guys and um, you know,

35:53

I from uh To me to me from my understanding of this passage and in romans 11

36:01

It uses very similar language, but it has two two pretty different meanings in my opinion Uh, you know

36:07

I think we see in in in luke's in the gospel luke and i'm actually just started a series to the gospel of luke sunday morning so i'm i'm looking forward to preaching through this whole book, but um

36:18

I really think we're talking about what we've already declared the destruction of the temple The the judgment and in in this circumstance, it is a judgment

36:26

I think it parallels very well with matthew 24 and the judgment piece of it and god is using the the gentiles until the time of the gentiles,

36:35

I think it's a descriptor of Of judgment and then I think if you're going back into eschatology and dealing like with daniel you know and and daniel too and the and we have these generations of Uh nebuchadnezzar's image of of gentiles of of the bronze and the iron and those things there's generational pictures of of gentile nations and And um, and then you've got daniel's vision of the four beasts, uh, the four kings and nations

37:04

That will dominate for a time until christ comes to rule It's sort of that futurist point of view or even pre -malignant point of view or post -malignant point of view.

37:12

We're all looking That's one of those non -negotiable in my opinion Doctrinal things no matter how we define ourselves.

37:19

We're all looking for a time for christ to come and rule, you know and and all the enemies are put under his feet and so in in believing that in united in that um

37:32

In of itself then I think that luke is talking about that. There was something that started in 70 a .d

37:39

That's going to last until Till those things are put under the feet of jesus and and so um

37:49

And and then you had the visions of the ram and the goat and daniel eight Gives more details about the the gentile rulers and leaders of that of that of that prophetic

38:00

Situation. So so that's my point of you guys. I believe that Uh luke's gospel was talking about a judgment that came upon The earth god used a gentile nation to bring judgment against the israelite people and That's a pretty common pattern if we go all the way

38:19

Back through the old testament that it was god turning them over as a consequence of their sin to to gentile and pagan nations and so um

38:28

So then that brings up a second question for me then Okay uh, it goes back to our question last week in dealing with um part of the differences between pre -millennialism and post -millennialism or the progression of the gospel, you know, and and that that frame of thought so are are is the world still under Gentile rule until for lack of better terms under that judgment until they're put under the feet of jesus

38:59

And is god allowing more influence that greater is the fall and how great the fall is

39:05

In the babylonian culture, you know, or is the gentile?

39:11

uh Process that started there in 70 a .d. Is it eroding away, you know, and that's uh and becoming more christian and so that's

39:20

And again, we're only seeing glimpses in time and all those things we've talked about but I think that's one of those nuances between the two points of view of working through are we becoming more christian or less christian in other words is there

39:34

More judgment upon the earth until christ puts those things under domination or uh, or Or is there less?

39:43

Gentile judgment influence on the earth and until christ now rules and reigns and so um, so I think that's that uh

39:53

Cup half full cup half empty Perspective sometimes that we we bounce back and forth in those two points of view, but nonetheless in my opinion it is dealing with a judgment

40:04

Uh, but I think and we'll talk about this more in a segment. I think romans 11 on the other hand

40:10

Is not speaking about judgment, but it's actually speaking about the salvation of the gentiles Um, so so I think it's two different perspectives using very close

40:20

Terminology, you know, I think Sorry, go ahead. I think the distinction you're making there is awesome

40:28

I I really do. I think it's awesome and particularly just simply when we go to the um

40:36

When we just go to the the simple reading of the text and go to the like the the greek uh the meaning of that word in in luke 21 24, uh, the the uh

40:51

The fullness or until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled That word, uh that's used there.

40:58

Um, you'll have to excuse me. We're all country here. So Uh, when you try to when you try to enunciate greek, it always sounds funny kahiros

41:07

Kairos, however, you want to pronounce that word, but it's a fixed and a definite time

41:12

The time when things are brought to a crisis, it's a decisive the decisive epic that is waited for So like you were saying there john

41:21

Um, I think I think that's a wonderful distinction there particularly for the the gospel passage there and then to make that distinction for the

41:32

For the romans passage when you go in the term that you use there in in romans is uh

41:38

Until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. We don't see the word time there, but we see the fullness It's the word play roma and that word specifically is talking about Uh the body of believers is that which is filled with the presence power agency in the riches of god in christ

41:56

So that distinction that you made there is dead on. I think I think it's dead on for the um

42:03

For the differences in those readings yet. They they point Ultimately, they do point ultimately to the fact that that that god made it so that when

42:17

Israel is quote unquote chosen people Throughout the old testament period when they stumbled at who he was and what he has done

42:27

That the door was open that that the way was made, you know For for us as gentiles to be part of the body of christ and to kind of you know

42:38

Summarize back what i've i've been listening to all the the entire evening here is is that even in that?

42:46

in that that it's it's not a It's not a distinction or delineation separating the church in israel because in romans 11 paul is

42:59

In no uncertain terms he clarifies what he's talking about there that you know israel is the church

43:06

The church is israel grafted in we we are grafted in and we are he is he is divine

43:13

As he said in john 15 and we are the branches so that that I think you know, that's my that's my two cents

43:23

But I appreciate that distinction john I think it was dead on yeah, I just think it's pretty neat how though the terminology gentile is the common term too and and I think it is important in eschatology because I don't know that we don't have a that that was the question

43:41

I asked dan in Post -millennialism point of view. Is there is there a measure in that fullness?

43:47

Is there is there is there a An estimation of when that is supposed to happen um and and I don't know that in my and the reason

43:56

I ask that is because I don't know that there is a clear point of view in any of the

44:03

Positions of eschatology to say here's when this tick of time is So so I just think for me

44:10

I brought it up as a point of in in my as in my point of view of in time study of end times

44:15

I think this is very important Because I think it's speaking of the process of jesus's rule and reign of how that's going to come that there is a season

44:25

That the world has turned over under the rule of gentiles And I think in luke's gospel that's speaking of godless rule that it's right

44:36

Unchristian rule it's pagan rule um But then in romans, there's this perspective though that god is even going to save those pagans

44:46

And then there'll come a time though that the last Gentile will be saved

44:53

And then god's heart will still turn back to the nation of israel, which in my mind Flies right into the face of what we talked about to begin with was replacement theology

45:02

It was very clear that the gentiles have not replaced israel That we are grafted in But lord gives a really strong warning.

45:12

He said if god was willing to break them off and throw them away How much more likely is he to is he to deal with you ever so more harshly?

45:20

So he's telling gentiles not to be arrogant And as I mentioned and we said we shouldn't look down at our nose at the natural olive branch

45:28

And if god still has a heart that there's the fullness of time That the last gentile will be saved and then there is

45:35

Then he will still turn his heart back to An ethnic group of people that through christ they will be saved as well

45:43

And then and then it's in my opinion in that futurist point of view. That's the point of the 144 000

45:48

The 12 000 from from the 12 So anyways But i'm just saying one is a message of one of in my opinion one is a message of of wrath or judgment and the other is a message of Of a hope and salvation and but using gentiles to illustrate both and I think that's pretty unique in scripture

46:12

Go ahead Um, I was just gonna I was just going to say because it's I mean it's it's what you're saying is very very true and it's very very important for us to to compare you know

46:26

Because our ideas want to run away. So we stay or we always stay in the guardrails of the scripture scripture interpret scripture, right?

46:33

That's the the primary rule for biblical interpretation Uh, so in another place in romans paul states

46:41

Not all Who say they are of israel or of israel basically not those just who are born of israel

46:49

But those who are who have the circumcision of the heart that broadens the that broadens the spectrum of israel itself

46:58

Not being just an ethnic people, but just but the people of god overall, right

47:06

Yeah, yeah Absolutely And I think that's where even in that statement though it

47:14

We agree with that exactly. Um, that's why we'd say not all church members are born again christians.

47:20

That's right I mean we wouldn't say that and so um

47:26

But I think if we're not careful too that delineates itself into replacement theology, too You know that now israel's gone away and it's only a picture of not all of israel is israel.

47:35

So now he's talking about Uh, you know as as jay was saying earlier, which we agree with there is one people of god before the foundations of the world

47:42

Our name's written the lamb's book of life So there's you know, there's there's one people that god has always had in the leg from the beginning of time and so therefore

47:52

But how that's been manifested in space and time Um, I don't think any of us should deny the reality that there is still a very important Um piece that plays a role in eschatology dealing with the nation of israel,

48:06

I think that's very important to Identify that that's my opinion anyways guys John I wanted to i'll come to you in just a second to see if you had anything that you wanted to ask or add to that, um

48:18

Jay, I was curious if you had anything to to add to that. Um, it seemed like Because we were we were kind of putting some parameters as we looked at luke 21 and and revelation 11

48:29

We were putting some kind of parameters there with a timeline it seemed like um, so Can can we yeah in luke 21 revelation 11?

48:39

Can we pinpoint a time frame there? Well You sent me this um message earlier.

48:45

It says romans 11. When does the time of the gentiles? What does the time of the gentiles mean and you put next to romans 11 that confused me at first and I had to go and look at romans 11 again because i'm pretty sure that Romans 11 never mentions the time of the gentiles and it turns out that I was right um romans 11 mentions the fullness of the gentiles and I think where the confusion may have come in as the bible often talks about the fullness of time

49:06

But fullness there just means fullness. It means like the the when the number of gentiles um

49:12

Becomes when the gentiles come into the kingdom of god and and fill the kingdom of god When it becomes a full of gentiles, then the jews will be converted also

49:22

And so the timeline of that in post mill and pre -mill is different. Um Now when the when the pre -millennialists that say that you know, we are um replacement, you know, we believe in replacement theology

49:37

They look at the post -millennial view of the kingdom of god and they say like well It must be incredibly anti -jewish because look there's no literal 1000 year rule of jesus on the earth from it from the throne at jerusalem

49:49

And the converted jews aren't going to be at the center of this millennial society like that's that's what's been taught by Dispensationalists historically, you know from darby and scoffield to helensy and so on Um, but the other thing you have to realize is that the dispensationalist view

50:06

Not every dispensationalist believes this but the one the traditional view by you know, scoffield's bible and so on Basically teaches that the church fails at the great commission

50:17

And that the church is raptured out of the world that's getting more and more evil and wicked And then the jews job becomes to convert the world

50:26

During this seven -year tribulation and then they become the they literally become the world's civil government david's throne is has jesus running from jerusalem at um during the millennium so the post -mill view says that You know the millennial reign is going on now jesus is on a throne he's ruling from heaven

50:46

But most post -millennialists throughout history don't deny the importance of the jewish people um, they have

50:54

An importance now they have an importance in the end times um, but I mean if you just go through this is what this is what romans 11 says it says

51:04

For I do not desire brethren. You should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own opinion

51:10

That blindness in part has happened to the israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in And so all israel will be slayed

51:18

Will be saved as it is written the deliverer will come out of zion He will turn away ungodliness from jacob for this is my covenant with them when

51:26

I take away their sins So that's something that's yet to happen according to paul Um now here's the controversy

51:33

What's meant by all? Israel Like when he says all israel shall be saved. What does that mean?

51:38

And who or what is israel? there that's where people kind of go off the rails in all different directions and But the reform consensus in the last 500 years from the time of like lutheran calvin onward um, basically

51:53

Says that this is about ethnic jews And they will be added to the church Which is now made up of jews and gentiles and thus all israel will be saved.

52:03

Okay Um, you know bb warfield believed that um, this is a 1560 geneva bible

52:10

There's a little note on romans 11 16 He showeth that the time shall come

52:16

That the whole nation of jews though not everyone particularly shall be joined to the church of christ

52:21

So it was like that was the bible of the puritans by the way, so the puritans When they came to new england and the jews were being persecuted

52:30

By the spanish inquisition in south america, they invited them to come to new england and you know, one of the first synagogues in america was in rhode island because they they said come to Uh the new world so you can be um, hear the gospel basically.

52:43

That's what they wanted um So all israel It's a recurring expression in jewish literature.

52:50

It doesn't mean every single jew without exception, but israel as a whole so israel as a people Eventually will be converted um

52:58

And so all israel shall be saved. That's what john calvin believed that as well He says I extend the word israel to meaning all the people of god according to this meaning when the jews shall come in The jews should when the gentiles shall come in the jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith

53:16

And thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole israel of god, which must be gathered from both

53:22

And yet in such a way that the jews shall obtain in the first place being as it were the firstborn in god's family

53:28

So that was john calvin's commentary on the epistles of romans um, jonathan edwards,

53:33

I mean I could go on and on jonathan edwards charles hodge um You know many others

53:40

I'll just give you edwards for instance. Um Nothing is more certainly foretold in a national conversion of the nothing is more certainly foretold than this national conversion of the jews in romans 11

53:52

All right Um charles hodge says the second great event according to the common faith of the church is to perceive the second coming

53:59

Second advent of christ is the national conversion of the jews. I like this part. He says as the rejection of jews was not total

54:07

So neither is it final as the restoration of jews is not only a desirable event

54:12

But one which god has determined to accomplish christians should keep it constantly in their view

54:18

Even in their labors of conversion of the gentiles The conversion of the jews is to be national

54:24

As their casting away was national. So although a remnant was saved So their conversion may be national although some may remain obdurate or I guess obstinate as a for that, so that's that's basically been the um

54:40

The these are all post -millennialists or optimistic on millennials, by the way that I quoted from And so that's been the consensus is that the jews will be saved in time it's happening now, but as the

54:52

The kingdom of god progresses. We're going to see more and more until it becomes unusual to find someone who's a jew

54:59

Who's not a believer in jesus christ? And so that should you know, that should make you very happy to hear that if you're a dispensationalist who loves israel

55:12

There are some post -millennialists that don't agree with that But this is not the the historic view of post -millennials.

55:18

Most of them have said that god has a plan for um israel, you know george whitefield and so on and many others john, uh, john wesley, um

55:26

I don't have all the quotes in front of me, but those were just a few Dan let me ask you this question.

55:33

So So listen to this comment and then let me know if i'm on the right path or not. So Here paul and romans is pointing out

55:42

Making a specific mention of israel but That's not necessarily mean that they are any different from the partial preterist post -mill perspective

55:56

They're the firstborn of god Yeah so but they're They're going to be similar to all all other nations

56:04

All other nations are going to fall into place the word gentile or nations in the bible in hebrew is mishpachah

56:11

And in greek is the ethne the nations And israel was one of the nations

56:18

It's off that word is used of israel the nation of israel that word in hebrew and um in greek, but it'd be like if we were to say, um, you know, we're as americans and we begin talking about the nations

56:31

Plural we mean other people besides us So the jews are one of the nations that are going to be converted

56:38

Um, we should talk about that too the meaning of the word nation in the bible is not what we think of today

56:44

It's not a geopolitical Group that has like a capital city and boundaries

56:49

A nation is an ethnic people that has the same language culture And that's becoming less, you know now with globalization that's becoming less and less certain, you know, like i'm

57:01

Several different nations rolled into one as an american, right? I have ancestors in different countries throughout europe um, so what am

57:09

I, you know, what nation am I but basically Um, some people would say i'm not, you know, there are no more nations.

57:14

There's just the nation There's just the the nation of god basically But I think that god alexander solzhenitsyn who was a russian dissident was a great christian post -millennialist as well

57:25

He had this quote about how the nations were like this jewel So it's each facet of this the kingdom of god's a jewel.

57:32

It's a it's a great Jewel and each nation is a facet on the jewel And each nation reflects the light of god a certain way so Like like I my first church was in um, the north end of boston, which is the italian neighborhood of boston

57:49

Uh, that church is very different from you know, a baptist church in arkansas somewhere You know you get an italian saves, you know a guy that used to like hang out with guys in the mafia

58:00

You've seen movies about some of these guys, you know um They really they really get saved and they really love the lord and they're willing to Sacrifice something if you grew up in a baptist community in arkansas, it's not quite the same you know

58:14

When jews become converted they're very zealous for god You know, that's i've never met a jew that you know became converted from judaism

58:24

That was not just really on fire for god and had a lot of depth of knowledge and so on Everybody brings their own flavor

58:33

You know their own culture is like a different flavor to christianity. I think that god delights in that I think that he wants um, you know to see

58:43

Ethnic expression that's god's plan God, you know god is the was the author of the nations. He he created them

58:50

I don't think that it was a A byproduct of sin or anything like that. I think that this was god's plan all along So the jews were the firstborn of the nations, um, they have a special role

59:02

They're not better but they're first And kind of like in presbyterian church government, there's a

59:10

There's a the teaching elder. He's not above the other elders, but he's the guy that's up there preaching from the pulpit every sunday

59:17

You know, so he has a special role And what do we get from the jews we get prophecy? Yeah So and and romans is a is a reassurance that israel's not forgotten in the future

59:29

Um, and we learned from the rest of scripture that all nations, I mean that's what matthew 28 is, you know

59:37

Made disciples of all the nations. So we learned that all nations are going to come romans is a reassurance that Israel is not left out and they're going to come to christ, too

59:49

Right, right. Okay. Um, I don't know. Is that a question? Well, i'm just trying to summarize

59:55

What was being said? Uh, let me ask you john, do you have any questions so far or thoughts?

01:00:03

No, I think maybe I might be over simplifying some things um

01:00:09

One of the things that I talked about It may be in our second Maybe the second podcast

01:00:16

You know and if you use a lot of theory And it's fine. How do you apply it?

01:00:22

Right. What does it look like and one of the things that i've thought about over again I've heard it kind of mentioned here In the in the postmill view, uh way

01:00:31

I understand it and I yeah, I wasn't here for the whole meeting it seems as if the world should be

01:00:39

Even if gradually growing more and more christian, am I wrong or am I right in that view?

01:00:46

Yes But I don't know that we see that And now granted i'm a young man

01:00:52

In a relatively young country and i've only been serving the lord for a little over a decade but I don't

01:01:00

What I do see in places that I do see Genuine christians becoming more and more

01:01:09

I hate to say more and more christians if though you can be more and more christian, but I can I can see them Taking that a lot more seriously

01:01:16

Jay, you said that up north if an italian Gets saved he's really saved as opposed to maybe a baptist man in a community of baptist in arkansas

01:01:26

Come to the lord. I know you didn't mean that there was a different level of salvation But I have saw in our county

01:01:34

People who had spent a lifetime in church and didn't really know the lord Come to know the lord

01:01:41

And those who already knew the lord Become more emboldened in their proclamation If that makes sense, but I don't see the world as a whole

01:01:50

Becoming more and more christian If anything I do see the contrary Yeah And when it comes to the whole nation of israel versus the church

01:02:04

I Again I may be oversimplifying this and I don't want it to sound disrespectful or anti -semitic or any of that because I have no

01:02:13

I don't hate anybody but in christ You're either in christ or you're not in christ

01:02:21

Amen, I see I see christ as being the the definitive article and if if you're a christian you're a christian

01:02:27

Regardless of what you were born and if you're not a christian, you're not a christian Regardless of what you were born and I don't see there.

01:02:36

I don't see there ever being a revert to any other kind of Old testament law or Or any of that I see either

01:02:47

If there'd be a ethnic jew Say he'd go by way of the cross the same way that italian man in upper boston would come.

01:02:54

It'd be by the cross amen and I don't

01:02:59

That and I said I may be oversimplifying it and maybe I said something y 'all said 30 minutes ago When I wasn't here and if I did

01:03:05

I apologize for that one of the things I think about As i've heard in my life a lot about people talking about in the in the

01:03:13

Last days, there'll be people who say they're jews and they're not jews and i've heard a lot of people harp on that In romans 2

01:03:22

The end of romans around 28 says for he is not a jew who's one outwardly nor circumcision but one

01:03:28

Outward the flesh but he is a jew who is one who's inwardly in the circumcisions of the heart By the spirit not by the letter and it's by praise

01:03:36

I don't mean and to me this kind of echoes what christ tells the samaritan woman at the well

01:03:43

When he says god Seeks a people to worship him in spirit and in truth and that time is now he was talking to her then and I suppose is that is that even adding to the conversation if I took away from the conversation

01:04:02

I think you're fine If I could just add two more thoughts to that really john to help to help you understand some of I think where The reason

01:04:11

I think it's important in the distinctive It's very clear in the earlier in the passage too that god keeps his promises to the israelites and paul's saying that it is god forsaken

01:04:21

His elect is he forsaken his people and he's like no i'm an israelite, you know, he's so we're obviously speaking about an ethnicity

01:04:29

But then paul's talking about the judgment on on them that we're talking about even in Uh the the gospel of luke and the judgment on them under that time of gentiles

01:04:40

Is is that there's a hardening of those people? so we're not debating whether or not they come through christ or not, that's that is an absolute and true anything other thing would be heresy and so um

01:04:53

I think what we're talking about is the timeline or the distinctives and eschatology point of view because There there is in my opinion.

01:05:01

There's there there was a hardening And then and then the key word in the text for me is until So there's like this

01:05:10

This statement and and and I wanted to make sure When I went back and looked at this again, I wanted to make sure that wasn't just a english ad ad

01:05:17

Because that happens sometimes in the bible to help help it flow, but it really is In the greek that that that word until so there is a a time in history

01:05:30

I believe that is specific That that hardening will turn to a softening that there is a there is a fullness

01:05:38

And and they're going to remain under that hardening because of god's sovereignty and god's judgment Just like you harden the heart of pharaoh.

01:05:45

He's hardened and blinded and giving them a spirit of stupor and that's a pretty strong word Uh, in other words, he's made them stupid to the gospel if you just want to make a real simple definition of that Uh, but he's made them where they're ignorant of the gospel and unable to believe for until And then that is hope no matter how we want to say that just like jay said

01:06:07

I love what he said a while ago no matter how we come at this whether it's in the fullness of the church and the jews are being added or if there's a timeline where The fullness of the gentiles happens and and and then god's going to save jews either way we should be really happy But god's still in the saving business to you guys, you know what

01:06:25

I mean that that there is that hope in there So we should not lose hope when we look at israel right now

01:06:31

It's very frustrating because this should be a people that are after the heart of god and they're they're the number one country in the world that's leading in in the abortion movement not pro -life movement, but abortion movement, you know, and There's so many things there that are godless and anti the heart of god in israel

01:06:51

Even in their governments and the things that are happening there And we can't deny Even now though how much influence israel has in the worldwide culture, you know that there's still in it from a secular sense um

01:07:06

You know, there's influences there that happen. So so I still think there's something unique there, but when god does shift that That ethnic israel going back to I don't think we disagree on this that we are all desiring

01:07:21

To see the world put under dominion of christ period um

01:07:26

And we and we are heading in that direction Whether it takes it getting darker before the night, you know, the the weeping lasts for the night

01:07:34

But joy comes in the morning if it's going to get darker before the dawn Or or if it's going to progressively we're already in the sunrise,

01:07:43

I think that's also how i've been Looking at these two points of view because I think sometimes the pre -millennial things is going to get really really dark

01:07:52

And it's the darkest right before boom the dawn, you know, and so we're looking for the sun to rise

01:07:57

And then the post -millennial is like well, we're already in the sunrise process, you know So we're in the in the process looking for the sun to come on up, you know

01:08:05

It's just behind the cloud and it's fixing it either way. We're looking for the sun to come up and christ to shine on everything amen, so when

01:08:13

I was So, but again john, it's not that we're even thinking that just because they're a jew they're safe It's still going to be christ but the reason

01:08:24

I made that statement was was uh, we were talking about the Partial preterist post -millennialist view and I asked the guys

01:08:30

I said, how do you How do you use it? You know, how is it that you take the your view of eschatology whatever it is

01:08:38

And how does it affect your gospel? Right, because if it affects your gospel in a way that makes anything less than the gospel

01:08:44

I say you have to throw it out as a whole so that i've used that I think i've used that pretty uniformly with everybody if they're a

01:08:52

Futurist pre -millennials a pre -millennial dispensation or a historic amillennials or post -millennials

01:08:57

How is it that your eschatology and your view of eschatology affects your Your gospel message your preparation of the gospel message and your sharing of the gospel message

01:09:07

And one of the things I will say that I have saw Is where some people take a very defeated approach

01:09:18

To their gospel message and saying that you know lord just come take me out of this world It's getting too bad for me to handle, you know

01:09:24

They keep their hands in their pockets and they're they're not doing anything To share the gospel with anybody so much as they're complaining about the situation that they're in which is effectively making the situation worse by enacting and then you have some who

01:09:39

Who think that the world is if you have some who think the world's getting better so we don't need to worry about spreading the gospel because the gospel is going to Extend anyway, regardless of any actions or inactions that we do.

01:09:50

This is already This is already considered complete Then you're still being inactive

01:09:57

In the great commission, you know, I don't think that the church Will fail at the great commission

01:10:04

And that's and that's why the world will get more and more dark so much as I think that as the church as the church tries

01:10:13

To excel in the great commission. There's going to be a pile of people be killed because of their gospel message.

01:10:19

That's that's been Historically what i've seen throughout the history book and you read martyr books that are that thick

01:10:27

Where people get in power that are anti -christian first thing they do is they torture the church you know that's what

01:10:36

I meant by when I said, how do you use it pastor john is that I work with a guy who is a pre -trib

01:10:47

Millennialist pre -millennialist and uh he He's a real good guy But his gospel message has been affected so drastically by his eschatology that his gospel message will not save you anymore

01:10:59

It's so dangerous his view is this he's i've asked him several times to say it slow enough

01:11:05

So that I know I didn't take him out of context And i've waited for a while before I shared it with y 'all.

01:11:11

Here's the dangerous part of having an eschatology. That's out of whack He says that his preacher preaches every sunday about this

01:11:20

Maybe not every sunday, but regular That all those who've heard the gospel before the lord returns are completely condemned.

01:11:27

There's no hope of salvation whatsoever If they've rejected the gospel now, they'll never accept the gospel.

01:11:33

He believes the holy spirit departs with the church seven years before the Real return of the lord,

01:11:40

I guess you would say and during that time The only people that will be saved will be jewish people

01:11:47

And those people will be saved Because they have to suffer tribulation And his words were

01:11:54

I had him say it at least three times slows because I listen slow He said they'll earn their salvation through tribulation.

01:12:02

I said say that again. So I know I heard you right? He said they'll earn their salvation by suffering through tribulation.

01:12:09

I said then that's a different gospel That's entirely you're saying that there's a way to the father besides the son

01:12:16

That's what you're saying. He said no i'm not I said. Yes, you are and that's that is what your gospel message has left you with Your gospel message has left you with uh, a promise of all those

01:12:29

Who aren't saved now? At the rapture. There's no hope of salvation except for anybody except for the jews

01:12:37

And then they have to revert back to the law in order to be saved when the law couldn't save you in the first place

01:12:43

That's right So it's completely ridiculous to some degree And and if this is being taught in more than one church,

01:12:51

I have to imagine his pastor was educated by someone right then

01:12:57

What a condemning heresy is being spread left and right That's why I say how does your eschatology affect your gospel message if it affects your gospel message?

01:13:06

It makes anything other than what we see in roman or in first corinthians chapter 15

01:13:12

Yes, then then I say You don't even need to worry about teaching eschatology because it shouldn't

01:13:17

That that part's not going to matter if you're in christ, you're saved if the lord returns and calls you out of this uh, and then there's seven years of tribulation if you go through tribulation the lord returns to the end or if the lord returns

01:13:29

After the great commission is complete. I to that end. I don't see where it really matters Yeah, and I I'm going to interject i'm going to interject something here because I Talk about how how post -millennialism affects your gospel message

01:13:46

I told I told you that I took um, you know, 12 trips to russia and ukraine I was there usually from anywhere between like two weeks to a month at a time

01:13:53

So it was over a period of about seven years or so And one of the things I kept hearing over and over again when people were raising money for bibles for russia or whatever was they always said, um you know we need to Get the gospel into russia before this before the door slams shut again

01:14:10

And I always found that very odd and when I realized That these people have been taught that um, russia is a you know people

01:14:18

Uh, they're gog and magog, you know in ezekiel chapter 38 and 39 and they're people predestined to be damned essentially and that um, you know

01:14:29

We know that russia is going to attack israel in the end times and we need to get all the jews out of russia into israel so that Then when russia attacks israel, they can be there and like you said to earn their salvation through the tribulation

01:14:40

That was exactly the view even though people would not articulate that that wasn't that was kind of like the worldview

01:14:46

That was in the back of their mind um We went to train people to do all kinds of things, you know to to be leaders in the society um to I was, you know training people to publish newspapers and produce videos and so on so that we could have christian media um in russia we we saw um, some of our

01:15:08

Presentations translated into russia and shown on russian television reached millions of people Um, I could

01:15:14

I could tell you about some of some of the effects but the message wasn't salvation only get people saved so that They can be saved when the door slams shut again it was get people saved so that they can transform the society now what's interesting is uh

01:15:30

You know you hear um Back in the 1990s back in the 1980s and 90s the conservatives hated

01:15:38

The russians like they were the it was atheistic communism. This was the the evil empire

01:15:43

Ronald reagan actually called it the evil empire today who hates the russians more than anybody in america

01:15:50

Are liberals why because Russian president has come out against abortion against Homosexual politics.

01:15:58

It's illegal in russia today to um Put out homosexual propaganda

01:16:07

Actually have a law against homosexual propaganda they're they're slow. I mean they get a lot of problems

01:16:12

I'm not saying vladimir putin's a great guy or anything like that But the influence of the church in their society is moving

01:16:19

In a direction whenever the russian president stands up on a podium He has the russian orthodox church standing next to him now that wasn't like that during communism as you know um, and they include other

01:16:30

Protestant leaders as well In that but you know the dominant religion is the orthodox church there, but they're moving toward Or back, you know toward a russia was founded as a christian society

01:16:41

And they're moving back toward that again Okay They're far from perfect like america is far from perfect.

01:16:49

Okay, so that's that's the main concern we don't say as post we're optimistic as post -millennialists, but we're not saying that Um, every single person is going to be converted, you know, there's always going to be a reprobate element in the world

01:17:00

There's going to be times of decline but in general, we believe that um

01:17:06

Christianity one day will be the world's most dominant Um moral force in the culture the most dominant intellectual force

01:17:14

And that we're the salt that you know That leavens the world. We're the salt that that seasons the world.

01:17:22

It keeps it from getting rotten We're the you know, the kingdom of god is the yeast in the dough Um, we're not in this to survive.

01:17:29

We're in this to take over You know and it's not taking over through the arm of the flesh either. It's god god is going to do it

01:17:35

But we have to have that attitude That you know things are going to Um turn toward the better, but we have to believe it.

01:17:43

We can't just fight a war of attrition you know get people out of russia so that When the door slams shut again, you know, that was that was one of the things that used to drive me crazy when

01:17:53

I heard that um, so i've done articles on it and so on I had a guy that was uh

01:17:59

In my church, he was part of the john birch society. He was telling me this about how there's this plot

01:18:04

They're just pretending to reform and then they're going to like get all the money from the west and they're going to close the doors

01:18:09

And they're going to go back to communism and they're going to start the arms race again And I explained to him how that's not really that's kind of impossible

01:18:16

Um, and he got very angry with me. He says, you know, you're wrong. You're you're you know, you're being duped and so on And I I it's interesting if you have that certain worldview that things are destined to get worse

01:18:29

Um people get very angry when you try to tell them that no, you know things Um in the world are actually getting better and that's you know, the other part of the argument

01:18:38

I would say was that people a lot of people that that think that Um things are getting worse and worse.

01:18:44

They haven't really looked at at history very much You know because if you look at the progress of the gospel in history, it's quite remarkable

01:18:53

Uh that we're sitting here. I think everyone here is like at least middle age, right? I don't think we have but you realize that like, you know

01:19:00

Six people on the screen, right? At least four or five of us would be dead by now. I don't think the johns are middle -aged the two johns.

01:19:09

They're Early thirties. Oh, okay. Well, most of us are Oh my goodness

01:19:17

I don't I don't Just for the record I recognize y 'all as youngins

01:19:24

What i'm saying is most of us would be dead most of us would have been dead by the time we hit 40 back if we

01:19:32

Why why why is that why are we living longer? Well, it's because of medicine It's because of lots of things most of those things are because of a christian influence people don't get that.

01:19:41

I think that medicine's evil that they hate doctors and so on but actually um medicine historically came out of the church the first hospitals were founded by churches and so on so Um, there's all kinds of things that we enjoy today because of the gospel influence that we don't even recognize you know, so so in and um

01:20:03

John on the bottom left. I would give my input too on that on what you were saying there, too.

01:20:09

I think um, Um, are you in north carolina as well? Yes, sir, okay.

01:20:16

Okay. Um, I think and i'm from east tennessee and Dan's in new york, of course and and robert and john are in north carolina as well.

01:20:28

I think that's the sadly, that is the dominant view amongst

01:20:34

I think the general view of eschatology in most churches that view that you that your friend shares there because Folks don't want to take the time to to dip into it.

01:20:45

But from a completely I mean non Uh non -positional non -postmeal non -pre -meal view um

01:20:56

I mean, it's it's sad that folks think that way because apparently they're not digging into the scriptures themselves because regardless We do know this we do know that christ has not yet Come and called his church out of this world that we are still here because when he comes

01:21:15

The dead in christ will rise first we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with him in the air and from that from until that time our responsibility as christian men is simply to Proclaim the gospel and that is the gospel that you talked about in first corinthians 15

01:21:33

It's that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures that he was buried and that according to the scriptures

01:21:39

He rose again the results belong to the lord the scripture says and I think it's either in proverbs or ecclesiastes

01:21:48

A living dog is better than a dead line That's why we we are still to preach the gospel because to him that's joined to all the living there is hope

01:21:58

We don't know the condition of men and women's boys and girls souls, but we do know that we have been tasked

01:22:05

With the proclamation of the gospel Regardless until our dying breath to simply to proclaim the death of the arrow and the resurrection of christ.

01:22:15

So from a you know, a non Non -dispensational view flat out the general christian view should be that we should be proclaiming the gospel to all men to every everywhere as they are and And in second,

01:22:30

I know it's been a few minutes ago, but I want to I want to point us back to the scripture concerning that the the

01:22:38

Thought about whether it's talking about ethnic israel or spiritual israel in romans 11

01:22:45

Because when we read it in context scripture gives us the answer here if you

01:22:51

Read verse 25 and 26 And 27 all together rather than just pulling the one verse up because it's so easy for us to do that But paul said

01:23:01

I do not desire brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery Right lest you should be wise in your own opinion

01:23:09

That blindness in part has happened to israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in and so All israel will be saved

01:23:20

Again, not an ethnic. It's not an ethnic idea It's all israel all god's chosen all of god's elect shall be saved

01:23:30

So I I mean i'll be the reformed guy on here that goes against majority idea throughout

01:23:39

His church history and and I and I would take that stand and say I would say it's spiritual israel you john john in the bottom left corner.

01:23:49

You you you read and quoted that scripture earlier uh, but you know, it's not those who are

01:23:55

Say they're of israel, but those who are have been circumcision of the heart not circumcision of the flesh, so That's my stance on the uh the uh the separation of israel in the church that israel

01:24:12

Is reference is appointing to the church in the new testament and the new testament church is appointing to the church

01:24:19

Or the uh israel in the old testament And and no matter which way you take that they're both true

01:24:28

Israel is going to be saved the elect is going to be saved You know I I would say both are are true which whichever direction that you go.

01:24:38

Um, i'm glad you pointed that real quick. I'm not going to Take along on that I think both terms

01:24:46

In romans 11 and it's a great word study It's discerning when paul is talking about ethnic israel and spiritual israel

01:24:57

I think he's talking about both in in romans 11 and discerning that and so the text you're using all of israel is

01:25:06

All of god's chosen people, right? But I think there's other statements in romans 11.

01:25:11

He's definitely talking about So I think it's I think it's yes and amen, you know,

01:25:18

I think it's it's And it's fun and it's another long study and we won't have time to unpack all of all of that through the whole chapter

01:25:25

Because it goes on even back on in earlier Um paul's saying about you know, i'd be accursed If I if I could save those people

01:25:34

Yeah, you know he's talking about Yeah Jews, so so paul plays some word acrobatics if you will and and Spiritual terms.

01:25:46

So anyways, I you know, I I I've preached through the romans uh a few times and um you know, and actually that's

01:25:56

That's what turned me to Reformed theology. I didn't have anybody that was like Discipling me and then

01:26:02

I would just I guess you could say a a regular old baptist, I guess Whatever that is, uh, no, but you know expositional exegetical preaching um

01:26:16

Is what formulated my theology through that and I praise god I praise god for that just trying to be honest with the text and so that's what we're trying to do today too

01:26:24

That's what that's our attempt in all this too guys. It's really It is defending positions, but at the same time

01:26:30

All of us are bound to the text and i'm thankful. Amen Amen, joe Well, let me say let me say four things.

01:26:39

I I think we've covered a lot of things tonight We've covered a lot of ground and i'm so appreciative of you guys

01:26:44

Um, I think it's a good time for us to uh to wrap it up And so let me ask you guys when

01:26:50

I when I end the broadcast if all of you would stay on just for a minute It's not going to kick you off if you'll just stay on.

01:26:57

Um, and number two um I want to give everybody an opportunity if you have any concluding thoughts if you'd like to share those thoughts, uh, if nobody, uh,

01:27:09

If when everybody finishes or if nobody has any thoughts Um dan if you don't mind, um, i'd love for you

01:27:15

If anybody's still watching and made it to the end of this if you would share the gospel um

01:27:22

That they may hear the gospel and then when he finishes, um, brother john big john, would you mind to close us in prayer?

01:27:32

So any concluding thoughts from anybody to wrap it all up? One thing that just pops into my mind is that um, we talk about the lordship of jesus christ as central to the gospel

01:27:45

And um, every christian would agree that jesus is lord of their lives And um, if you ask them about the family

01:27:53

Hopefully they would say jesus is Lord of my family and hopefully they would say lord of my church as well

01:27:59

But when we start talking about jesus being lord over the totality of life sometimes that Falls on deaf ears because of you know, some of the reasons we mentioned already

01:28:09

Um, I would just say to people it doesn't matter if you're, you know, pre -meal post meal on meal or whatever If your eschatology doesn't include um a victorious message about the lordship of jesus christ over all of life

01:28:23

Then you should change your eschatology amen Yeah, I love that thank you jay and that I would

01:28:32

I would totally agree with that too And and we would say in every extreme

01:28:38

Whatever camp you fall into there's heresy there and and I would echo what brother john was saying earlier that And what jay just said your eschatology does not lead you to the lordship of jesus christ

01:28:53

With a hopeful future and and I love teaching my congregation this when the scriptures teaches of hope

01:28:59

It's not i'm wishing that jesus Will take over one day that jesus is taking over or jesus is

01:29:08

I'm, not wishing right now that jesus is king of kings and lord of lords I'm saying

01:29:13

I have a hope that he is Right now king of king lord of lords and that will be fully manifested um

01:29:23

And and and so i'm going to throw a question for next time to to be pondering um, even with eschatology and salvation from a preterist and a futurist point of view

01:29:34

I believe that I was saved Before the foundations of the world and in my past there is a moment of crisis and conversion

01:29:40

I am being saved in my sanctification and I will be saved in my glorification and and and i'm thankful for That point of view of of the scriptures that there is a a

01:29:53

Past god before time. There is a god right now with us in time and there is an assuredness and a hope that we have that That we are absolutely secure in and he is the great

01:30:06

I am that never changes So so that's what we're talking about. That's why it's so hard to understand you know

01:30:12

We're fine out in that so So that's that's the god we serve i'm thinking about dan i'm going to turn it over to you if you want to Share the gospel for us.

01:30:28

That'd be great Yeah, proverbs 4 18 says the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn

01:30:33

It shines brighter and brighter until the full day Uh, we know that there's only one path

01:30:39

Of the righteous only one path of righteousness and that's through jesus christ amen one of us has

01:30:47

Has not done well has sinned and fallen short of the glory of god if we're going to be on that path to Righteousness be on the path of the righteous.

01:30:55

We're going to have to go on that path through jesus christ um, we're going to have forgiveness of sins if we're going to have

01:31:04

Reconciliation between creator and creature if we're going to have anything in our life go

01:31:09

Uh correctly go in the right direction go towards god and not away from him

01:31:14

We have to follow that path and that path is jesus christ jesus He Willingly went to the cross after being living a perfect life um

01:31:28

He died and no more grateful three days rose again And he was reigning at the right hand of the father

01:31:36

It's that hope that we hear that we know about that uh the path of the righteous uh is

01:31:45

Like the dawn it grows brighter and brighter to the full light of day and that's that's that hope that we have in jesus that it's not just that we

01:31:56

Know christ, but that we will know him more and more as he reveals himself to us more and more

01:32:01

As we trust in his gospels we have faith in What he has done for us and as we believe in him to accomplish that good work in us um, it is a wonderful glorious thing and that's that hope that each one of us shares no matter which one of our eschatological positions we have

01:32:20

Thank you guys so much, uh, john, will you close us in prayer? Father we come to you in jesus name

01:32:28

Well, i'm so very thankful For what you've done here I'm, so very thankful that all I heard tonight was how you were being praised and you'll be worshiped through the message

01:32:38

Even in the various of opinions There's a sensuality that you are king and that you are lord

01:32:44

God, I pray that you bless my brothers as they go forward lord that you bless the union that happens in these These times of times and that you'd be glorified and magnified in them

01:32:52

And we'll be careful to give you all the praise and all the glory and all the honor Because you alone are worthy of this in jesus name.

01:32:59

I pray. Amen I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you guys, uh for watching