Pastors' Panel Podcast

All right, thank you guys for joining and watching the pastor's panel podcast. So thankful that you're joining us and we hope you you learn a lot. We want to glorify god here as we we gather together and we we sharpen one another.

Um, let's pray as we get started father we come to you and and We humbly bow to your presence acknowledging that um, all good things come from you and and we cannot. We can do nothing apart from christ and so we we pray that you would um use this time to get Together to honor and glorify yourself.

Would you help us to understand that we may know you and love you more than we we may love jesus more and would you use this time together to um, to help us, uh, reach out and edify our communities and and let others see Um what it's like to have a conversation among brothers in a loving way That honors and glorifies you.

Father we we pray all these things in jesus name. Amen. All right, um. To get things started. We have a new face with us and I want to allow him an opportunity to Introduce himself. So brother jay, let us know who you are.

Okay, i'm jay rogers. I'm from boston massachusetts area. Originally. I've lived in florida half my life. Uh, I was involved with a ministry called the forerunner which was started with maranatha campus industries.

I was only with that group for about several years and then um, we ministry kind of decentralized dispersed and I worked with the forerunner, um, pretty much on my own with some people that I Knew that were part of that church for about 10 years.

I did Missionary outreach we were in russia and ukraine did publications there. Um got involved with video productions and um, i've been doing that ever since I work full-time as an english teacher. And i'm really interested in um, biblical apologetics biblical worldview and i've got interested in the topic of eschatology about um, I would say 20 years ago when I read a book on post-millennialism and I realized like that this is Probably something I can grasp very easily.

And it took me about another 10 years to come to a preterist point of view. And then I really wanted to try to figure it all out. But I went very slowly. My main area of study was daniel because I felt like everybody Starts with revelation and they come to a view of that and then they kind of work backwards and I thought like well because daniel was quoted four times in matthew 24 and is throughout The revelation I wanted to make sure that I could get a a working model of daniel from a preterist viewpoint first.

And then apply that and so i'm kind of like in the process now of working through revelation but I spent about About let's see. I don't want to say 20 years, but it was a long time. I spent on dan. It was on and off, you know, it was like an 18 month period where I published a book.

It's a called in the days of these kings uh the book of daniel and prairie's perspective. And that's been my most popular book that i've done. It's not on the level of hal lindsey. You know millions and millions of copies sold, but it's you know I think it's getting close.

I think it's I know it's hundreds. It may be maybe a thousand. I'm not sure but it's it's a significant amount for a self-published book. And a lot of people. I i've made contact with a lot of people that have been very impacted by it.

Which i'm thankful for so.

Well, i'm i'm honored and I think it's a privilege that you took time to join us tonight. Um, and and as I told you earlier, I want to thank you for your work on on that book for daniel. Because it is um, i've used it as as we've been working through daniel, uh, dan and I have and it's been a real encouragement and it's very Readable understandable and so i've been thankful for your work.

So you're talking about the long version the 720 page version.

No, the the one that's um available on your website for runner.

Okay, so you can yeah, you can read the first 150 pages on my website. You just go to forerunner .com and I also did an audio version of it that I didn't do the whole 720 pages because I just felt like you know, I I have other things I want to do with my life, but I I um did 150 pages.

I read it and I have the words on the screen so you can Um read it through it's exactly what's in the book. And then if you're really interested, I would say get the rest of the book. I have another version that's shorter that kind of like.

There are a lot of questions that people have since I published the book and some other materials that I I kind of dealt with some other things. Kind of a repeat of some materials, but then some other things that came up.

And that one is just called the prophecy of daniel and prairie's perspective.

Okay.

And I would encourage everyone to check out forerunner .com and check out brother jay's stuff. It's fantastic. Uh everything that i've seen. Um, and and just a little introduction on the the rest of the brothers here that i've come to know and appreciate.

Um, you know, we're not trying to Become podcast famous. We're just individuals trying to reach our community for jesus because we love them and we love people and so that that's what we're about and our Topic thus far has been eschatology.

We've been walking through matthew 24. And let's jump right in stemming from Last last conversation that we had and I wanted to start off here. Um, we all come from Somewhat different perspectives. I'm thankful to have pastor jonathan on with us because um, he he's the least Jonathan you're you're not post meal at all.

He's coming from a different perspective. So he's able to um direct us and um Give give us some directions some questions that You know are general questions that people may have that are you know, freshly new to partial preterism to post meal and and um, and so we can.

We're not we're not a bunch of crazies. We're not heretics and.

We can.

Lovingly have that conversation with one other and these are kind of questions that jonathan brought to our attention. So. The first one is the the question question of replacement theology and um. So that I don't um hog all the airtime here I'll let I'll let one of you guys jump in and talk about replacement theology.

From my understanding um. It it's a re it's a reactionary from.

The.

Pre-meal.

Kind of an accusational thing.

Um.

Is that correct? It isn't it? Not not too many people really believe replacement theology. There may be some out there. But when it's pointed towards partial preterism or post meal folks, um, it's more accusationary.

And that's that's not necessarily what we we believe. So can somebody touch on? Um, What the pre-meal dispensation means.

Um.

When they make that accusation towards us where they get that from why they think we are replacement theologians.

Well from um what i've i've gathered.

Um.

Uh, really. Replacement theology, uh was Kind of the response from the dispensational view and um saying somehow that that the church has replaced israel and I I really from my studies, I see that that it's the exact opposite that um, Actually, the dispensational view is the replacement theology uh placing, uh ethnic israel israel at the the center of bible prophecy.

When uh, you go through like jose 11 matthew 2 Zephaniah, I mean you go through all of them that um, there's not this. God divorces israel.

Uh.

That that from their view that Um in the end times god has this special covenant with um ethnic israel and that would just really um kind of uh really mess up the the new covenant right there because uh.

Uh, there's no no longer jew nor greek. No, you know, but we're all one in christ and so, um that that is uh, um. So and the reason why uh that we believe, you know as post-millennial. Um, uh our view is that um the the um.

That that would just that would say that there's two covenants still. And that there's actually two brides. And that's just not not so, you know that the the old covenant has been done away with the new covenant has come.

Uh, jesus is the fulfillment of israel. He did what ethnic israel couldn't do. And jumpers feel free to jump in. I don't want to take the whole thing, you know.

Sure, no, that's great guys. I just I think I think it's important. I was you know, I told robert the other night that I just felt like it's important that that we defuse.

Um.

We defuse things that are misunderstandings. Um, and and even what claude was talking about the other night a lot of this You know boils down to definitions. Uh, you know and and and those kind of things and I.

You know the the word we've used is this is a safe place for us to work through those definitions and ask honest questions without without being attacked, you know, and uh, and so so, um, and you know, I think um before going any further just just I think doctrinally.

There's things that we'd have fun, uh navigating through as well. But when it comes to eschatology even stuff that we talked about the other night I don't know a lot of the debate. Um. Really boils down to definitions and not necessarily doctrine or even debating timelines.

And not necessarily doctrine, you know, and so I think we've had a lot of people that divide over non-doctrinal issues, which is you know. Common among christians sadly, so.

So.

So that's what this is about, you know guys, it's about helping diffuse and create unity in the body of christ. And and then. You know because I think it is a bad misunderstanding even on.

Um.

And and even from a dispensational not all dispensations believe that the church has replaced Israel either, you know. And I just think there's there's those Accusations that are made so so so thank you brother for for sharing that and I think everybody that Was on last week echoed.

Everything that you just said so yeah and based on what you were saying, um, pastor johnson, um, I think once we finish matthew chapter 24, um, it will be a good time for us to have a separate video talking about how talking about those doctrines that we unite on that we that we hold fast to that we Stand firm on that we unite on that keep us together um, and then also Look at um.

The different viewpoints. Um, just like you said we we hold fast to the the same foundational core doctrines. But here when it comes to eschatology, like you said, we're we're looking at different how we view the timeline of eschatology.

Um, but There's an effect on how we interpret certain verses based on which timeline we look at and I think that would be good. Um a good video for us to do. Um to look at how different viewpoints cause us to interpret certain verses differently.

Uh, does anybody have anything else to say on uh replacement theology?

Sure.

Um, I what I what I say is that that phrase replacement theology is actually a straw man argument that's based on a misnomer. If you want to think that through a little bit. Um, basically the covenantal view of scripture assumes that there is a unity.

All right there. Israel is the old covenant church. And then the new covenant church in galatians 6 16 says is the israel of god. Okay, so everything that occurs in the old testament histories is an example.

To the new covenant church and then every promise of god in the old testament prophecy is to israel. And the church has one people not two separate people. So post-millennialism and the covenantal view doesn't teach that there are two people of god.

Uh, we don't teach that there's two ways of salvation. You know one way for self salvation for the jews one way for the gentiles we teach there's one way of salvation through jesus christ. We don't say that there is the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of salvation.

That's a dispensationalist teaching um the uh Post-millennial or covenantal view says that there's always been one way. Um to to christ. I mean one way to salvation through christ. Hebrews 11 spells that out.

So there's not two dispensations of law and grace or two covenants. There's really one covenant. It is a new covenant because it's renewed again and again throughout scripture you see this covenant renewal taking place and we we do covenant renewal every time that we You know go to church and partake of a sacrament.

That's covenant is always being renewed. So the book of hebrews shows us that salvation has always been through faith in the atoning work of jesus christ from abel through abraham from moses. From the time of the prophets all the way through to the time of the new testament saints.

So.

That charge replacement theology. You can only make that charge when you assume a dispensationalist paradigm. Right because there's only one people of god one covenant. Israel is the church. The church is israel.

There's nothing to replace. Right, you can only assume replacement theology is a thing if you think that something needs needed to be replaced. Um, there is obviously a difference between the old covenant and the new covenant, but the people of god, um.

You know, you have to assume that they're two separate people of god in order to think that we would want to replace them. So it's just a different worldview. It's not just.

Uh.

Many things i've noticed that with many times talking with dispensationalists is that they assume that you agree with certain premises and it's hard to Make an argument without knocking down those those foundations first and most people don't want to go there because that's you know, your whole building's going to come crashing down if you do that, so um, but that's you know, that's been the way of uh, interpretation for You know well over a thousand years and the church has always been viewed that way and it's really dispensationalism.

That's brought up this other model that says that and most people don't if you were to ask them, you know those questions. Do you believe that there are two people of god or one? Do you believe that there's two ways of salvation?

It's almost every dispensationalist is going to say I don't believe that. And then the question is, you know, what is there to replace them? You know, that's usually how I how I how I go at it with people.

So.

To me that kind of where we came.

Go ahead. What was going on was 11 um the conversation we had there with that and and and I don't think any of us would deny the reality of Old testament that there was a people of god clearly and then people of god who were not of god and then and in the grafting in.

Yeah.

You know, so that that's why the house of corneas was such a miraculous event because now non-jewish people uh are now allowed to have the holy spirit are now allowed to believe and and be saved just as those that were jewish were came to the jew first and then to the gentile and and so.

Um.

So it's and then that's even where some of my research in this, you know was showing even progressive uh, like a progressive. Development of that as well, you know of how throughout the whole bible. There started out with everyone knew the digital word the people of god with the exceptions of a few.

Um.

You know, you have rahab and a few others that were non-jewish that were brought in. There are a few exceptions, but but it was not the it was not the Masses that were invited come all through X which is jesus all for us come all through christ.

Um, pretty much it was god establishing the lineage of jesus through the jewish people. And so so of course, um so anyways. Sorry, i'm getting a phone call. I think it's it's good to be able to refute that that misaccusation you know and to to know that there's unity in this, you know, and that at the end of the day there there is there's unity and god still has a.

I had a good friend who um was up in cleveland, ohio. He's now passed on.

God still has a very specific and special plan for for israel.

I was going to mention that I had a good friend up in cleveland, ohio that um was part of a Charismatic reform church and they started teaching post mill and other you know, basically covenant theology and what happened was um.

He.

Had supporters that stopped supporting him because someone had someone went to Um someone that was really promises. Do you know that that this guy he is teaching replacement theology. And uh, you know doesn't he's against israel, you know doesn't and he had to you know, basically, um, really.

Make up a lot of ground by saying that he actually does Uh support israel for political reasons but not because of the reasons that dispensationalists support israel. You know, I was in russia. Uh quite a bit.

I was I would did 12 short-term mission trips to russia and ukraine. And I constantly ran into a lot of jews a lot of a lot of um mission. Or there's a lot of missions activity among jews in russia. Jews are a minority.

In russia and ukraine those countries and they're a persecuted minority. But many of them have come to christ and that's been one of the focuses of missionary activity and one of the um, the. One of the the focuses of these ministries is once they got saved the russian jews saved.

Was once they were born again couldn't if they were born again for six months. A year or whatever. Let's get them to israel. Um, you know, there's. Because they felt like well, they're going to be persecuted in russia or whatever.

So there's less persecution now than there was during soviet communism. And my thing was always why you have them as christians. Why aren't they staying in russia to evangelize other jews? They're attached to that community and they said well, you know the prophecies.

Have said that there's going to be an in gathering of the jews in the end times. And I would say well, you know, which prophecies are those and I would try to explain how many of those prophecies were prior to the restoration.

You know back prior to you know, ezra and nehemiah coming back into the land and that's what that was talking about there and I I always thought that that was a kind of a tragedy because a lot of times they would Go into israel as christians and as christian as a jewish christian in israel, you you have to give up more.

Than as a jewish christian in russia. You know. Because there's certain there's. There's certain things that you cannot do. In israel, if you say that you're a christian if you're a jew, it's kind of like they're.

There's more persecution there for a jewish christian than there is in russia. And so I always thought that that was very odd and it was all because of that dispensationalist paradigm. That they were doing that now on the other hand.

I got to talk to a lot of jewish christians in russia. And I got to see firsthand that people that have been raised in that community where they're very isolated where they're persecuted um, they are.

There is an advantage being a jew like paul says. You know, they people that have studied hebrew that um have lived in those kind of communities. They they come at christianity from a different perspective and understand prophecy from a different perspective um, because this is you know.

You know, we like they are the people of the book, you know. So I as a post-millennialist I believe in that but I don't believe in it for the same reason. That a dispensationalist would Just to introduce that topic of romans 11 and you know, I have other thoughts on that, but i'm going to just throw that out there.

Well, that's a good introduction to romans 11 because we want to look at. What was brought up last week was luke 21 around verse 24 romans 11 and then revelation chapter 11.

Which.

Which kind of parallels it looks like. Luke 21. Um, and I think it's an important topic because.

Um.

Ethnic israel the nation of israel. Um Playing a very important part in in these Certain eschatological views and um, you know, if if somebody's coming from a partial preterist view post meal view.

Um.

You know, there there can be some offense taken if you don't think that Um, or they may think that you that israel Um does not play a special role in in times Theology and so we want to dispel some of that.

Um, there's misnomers Um as we look at these these verses.

Yeah, let me just. I'm pulling up. Let someone else talk for a moment. I want to pull up something that I have to share but anyone any other people have thoughts on that? I'll be good.

Um, yeah, yeah, i've shared the the. Oh, i'm, sorry. Go ahead go through the the same thing is is, you know, i'm I'm, uh, the only reformed pastor out where I live and I have a lot of calvary chapel, uh out here I don't know if you guys know who they are.

Um.

Dispensational, uh college up the street and so a lot of times when i'm out evangelizing or whatever I I always come across uh calvary chapel, uh college students. And in all their books on revelation and the end times they stay clearly say that any other uh interpretation of the end times is a heresy.

So.

When we have the colleges the dispensational colleges that are that are teaching everybody that it's really not showing union. At all, they look at if we have a post-millennial view of scripture. It's just an automatic shutoff, you know, and uh,.

But uh, it's it's it's really I think it's really uh humbling just to sit and listen to their point of view, uh their view on scripture as as we all You know try to have that same mind of christ and humility and and come at the scriptures like that, you know, so.

But yeah, that's what I I go through down here all the time, you know.

I think it'd be I think it'd be good to start in in luke 21 if that's okay. Yes, sir, because um as we were looking at it and the conversation that I was having with with jay earlier, um. We were seeing how revelation chapter 11. It seems to parallel and and I brought this up last conversation we had and so.

Um.

Whenever we come across. Um what i'm getting ready to explain maybe one of you guys can explain to me. Where exactly it is. Because i'm still an infant in all this i'm still learning myself. So i've heard i've heard gary demar explain it this way.

Um.

There's there's a time that the gospel went to the to the jews first and then um, there was there was this overlap where then it went to the gentiles um next and and I was. I was unsure of when when this took place the timeline of that if these um this time of the gentiles in any of these verses, um.

Was pointing to that that overlap time. Where the gospel goes to the jew first and then and then to the gentiles. Um, so if anybody has any insight on that on that timeline. Where that fits in? I would be grateful for you to let me know uh, but but in luke 21 the the phrase that we're looking at that's.

Uh, there's so many things that we could dive into but the phrase that we want to look at. Because we want to know what god has to say about israel. About the gentiles when it comes to eschatology in times.

Luke 21 24. Um.

Uh.

Let me read verse 23 because it kind of gives the context. And you'll. And and those who are watching will be familiar with the language. Back from matthew 24. Probably it says. Woe to the woe to those who are with child those who nurse babes in those days.

For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people in verse 24. And they will fall by the edge of the sword And will be led captive into all the nations. And jerusalem will be trampled underfoot By the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled now.

That's the phrase that we're looking at. Until the times the gentiles be fulfilled. And when I read that verse and I saw where it says. They will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led Captive into all the nations.

And as i've looked at accounts from josephus and and other places. Where they're talking about? All the folks that died there. And then all the folks that were taken into captivity. I'm like. There it is.

Um.

You know, there's the prophecy fulfilled there in luke 21 24. Um.

So.

We want to know what the times of the gentiles To be fulfilled what that means. The this um this destruction this captivity. Um, this area will be trampled underfoot by the gentiles until the gentile time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Um.

Anybody want to take this on that path dan? I'll start us off. Yeah. Okay. Good good.

Yes, uh, if you look back in 23, it kind of gives you some time indicators. Yeah, um, it says in those days. I was talking about a specific time. It says woe to the the women who are with children of those who are nursing.

Uh great distress upon the land. Uh and wrath to this people, uh this people referring to the jews. Uh in those days being the days in which the the calamity the Tribulation is going to happen.

Uh.

It's happening which I believe came at the uh destruction of of jerusalem the besieging the Overtaking of jerusalem and then the destruction of the temple. So in those times Point, uh, they will fall by the edge of the sword.

They'll be like captive Uh into all nations talking about when they actually uh entered the city Dismantled thing. I mean it was a whole horrid time Uh, and jerusalem will be trampled underfoot By the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled so That that Event is going to last as long as the times of the gentiles Which until when it's going to be fulfilled.

So if you just run through the time indicators, it seems to indicate that the time of the gentiles Uh, whatever that means Would have ended when that calamity that's being spoken of in those days ended.

Can I can I ask this question before you go on?

Um.

If you're coming from the the pre-millennial dispensational view when when they use the word time of the gentiles. Are they referring to also? their understanding of the the church age.

I believe that's. Yeah, that plays into it, okay because in the in there in the pre-millennial dispensational mindset. All of this is pushed forward into a seven-year period of tribulation. And so they would say that the times of the gentiles is a time which is which is uh well present and future as the time of the gentiles being uh when gentiles are.

Are being saved. Um, I guess i'm not entirely sure how they they go about that one, okay. But yeah, it's a completely different understanding because they have a different framework of when these events are going to take place.

Something has to be fulfilled. Right, right. So what that's I mean, that's the key is one of. Times is one of those words that has a very. You know, it has a very expansive definition that can mean different things in different contexts when you use the word times in the bible.

Um. But you know just to read this again.

Uh.

They shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led captive into all nations and jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations. Until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. Um, like you said that did happen.

Jerusalem was did fall by the edge of the sword in 80 70. And they were led captive into all the nations. And jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations until the times of the gentiles shall be fulfilled.

There's two ways of looking at that from a preterist perspective. One of the ways is just the times of the gentiles are now it's like there was a there was an age of the jews. And now is the time of the gentiles.

Um, there's another way of looking at it, which is saying that it's very similar the dispensational view and it is the 42 months and like for instance the 42 months in um revelation chapter 11 would be identical with the Times of the gentiles.

That's milton terry wrote a commentary on the apocalypse that we published recently. Uh, if you want to just google that milton terry commentary on the apocalypse, you can find it uh for sale. Uh, we took A shorter part of a book that was part of a much larger book.

And we published it separately. Um, I don't agree with everything that milton terry has to say but this is an interesting very compelling argument that he makes.

Um.

Well, this is what revelation, um 11 1 and 2 says. And there was given to me a reed like a rod and the angel stood saying rise. And measure the temple of god on the altar and them that worshiped therein.

But the court which is without the temple leave out and measure it not for is given to the gentiles in the holy city That they tread under foot 42 40 and two months and that's milton terry says those 42 months is identical With what luke chapter 11 is saying.

Like it's the language is very similar. It's the same. And so another thing that's interesting is the what is the court of the gentiles?

There.

You know, it's um, there is act there. Excuse me. What is it? What was the court in the temple? There is an there was an actual court of the gentiles um in john's time. And it's mentioned in the bible.

Um. It says the court which is without the temple leave out measure or not for is given unto the gentiles. And what I say. Is that most likely john was referring to this court of the gentiles king herod?

In 20 bc he did a reconstruction of the temple and It was like an improvement on the second one that had been built after the exile. But in addition to all the areas reserved for the people of israel In this temple, there was a space which everyone could enter.

Jews non-jews circumcised uncircumcised.

Um.

Members are not of the chosen people.

Right.

And so originally if you think about it the temple was the place where The law of god was going to be preached to the nations even in the old testament. You see that Um, there are pilgrimages of non-jews to um to israel.

Um to hear like you hear about the queen of sheba and first kings ten and second chronicles nine. Uh, she came with an abundance of riches off of solomon. She came to prove him with hard questions, which solomon answered to her satisfaction.

And then that was this idea that the teachers of the law would would assemble there. And ask and answer the people's questions about the law. Okay, so this was a courtyard of the gentiles where Evangelism of non-jews non-jews was supposed to take place.

It also included solomon's porch and that as you know is a place in acts chapter six where Uh, the apostles preached to the nations after the to the jews and anyone that would want to hear about the gospel.

So that was like something that was known to john's audience. All right, there was this. You know in the previous chapter. It's kind of interesting. John's uh, john's given this uh, Mandate you must preach again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings um, so it's kind of like there's this reversal where.

This was going to be the place where the gospel was going to go out to the nations now it's going to become a place where the gentiles are going to Destroy they're going to trample it. And that in itself becomes a message to the nations that You know that christ is the king it's kind of like a kind of like a very ironic kind of um, a reversal there because Jerusalem did actually become the place where the gospel went forth.

To the nations, but in the process of that the temple was destroyed. So it's kind of like it's it's a uh, it's really interesting the language there, but um, you know, that's I I i'm this is something that like i'm not i'm not willing to die over this but I think that that's.

That's my understanding of what? Um roman romanist, I mean, excuse me luke chapter 21 where it refers to the time of the gentiles I do believe is speaking of those 42 months that were the roman legions, which were comprised of all the nations were You know came into jerusalem and they ended up trampling down the court of the gentiles and destroying the temple.

Before we go any further.

And.

John jonathan, I want to get your response.

Welcome.

Brother john, thank you for joining us.