Are Christianity & the West Doomed?

The Encouragement of Shared Convictions and a Vision for Cultural Engagement

So.

We were really excited. I I knew who you were I had heard about you. When Luke and I when Luke and I went up to Canada. But you have to understand our sheer joy when we got to know you more and got to understood got to understand your theological convictions, and we were Spinning images of one another theologically and So I saw the you had your book it just really I think it just come out mission to God.

Thank you. Yeah, so I grabbed that. I remember that look Luke and I go back to the hotel room that night. He's in his bed, I'm in my bed, and he's watching TV or something and flipping. I'm just reading through these chapters.

And I remember that I I think I may even stood up and jumped up and I said Luke. I Said we're gonna get this book for every person in our church, and we have to do a study through this book. This book is absolutely Incredible as it's our manifesto.

Because it was so much of what we were trying to say. Have been teaching on and trying to communicate all in one nice textbook. So it's interesting as I've gotten to know you more and more.

And.

Seen your your teaching and your conflict on the news and and different discussions. I've just really been encouraged by What you're saying and what you're specifically what you're doing, so that's kind of what I'd love to hear you talk about is What what's your what's your vision.

You have the Ezra Institute you have this new blessing now where it's just it's just blowing up. It's getting bigger you have this vision to really train people and equip them. Our our basic position is that we're gonna win the world.

It's not necessarily gonna be us in this generation, but we're planting seeds right. Yep, and so. You're you're biting off a big chunk because that's the message. He's gonna win everything media arts sciences.

Government law family. Everything ultimately is coming under the feet of Jesus right, but we're a long way from that so I just talk about that in terms of like vision. How do we. Because it's discouraging in some sense because my goodness we feel I feel like you look and look at moments in history where you see the church was Advancing conquering just great things, and then we've kind of slipped Into this current that seems wild and uncontrolled.

Yeah, and. Yeah, so just talk about that.

A Remnant, the Judgment of God, and Hope in the Younger Generation

Well, well first of all I I want to say that you guys are just as big an encouragement to me as as I am Am to you because as you're probably well aware People with these convictions in evangelicalism today aren't growing on trees.

You know finding like-minded people the same generation who are Committed to a vision for the Lordship of Christ. It was a huge encouragement to me to meet you guys to learn about your ministry to see what you were doing and.

There's areas where where you are pushing the pushing things forward pushing ahead pushing the envelope in Media and and so forth where the Institute my Institute has a lot to learn from from what you guys are doing so.

The feelings mutual on that point. If we're really really grateful for what you guys are doing I think I.

Think.

In terms of where we're at one of the encouraging things that that I'm that I'm seeing and I don't know what your guys experiences with this I'm actually finding the younger generation. Like the the the Gen X's and the Millennials.

Are.

Much more receptive to this message of cultural engagement in the Lordship of Christ than the than the older generation. So I find the big battle is often with the established church leadership. Of the of the older sort of 50 plus 55 plus crowd the old guard the old guard exactly whereas the younger generation are realizing That there is a serious problem with the retreatist pietistic.

It's.

Escapist faith. That they grew up with right appears to have no immediate relevance right life in the world and so I think one of the I Totally agree with you that we are a long way from where we even have been in the West in the past, right?

That's discouraging which is discouraging. Yeah, and at the same time you see these pockets of hope and encouragement with the younger generation and with respect to where we're at I think there's two things to that are important to remember.

Number one is there's no question in my mind that that what's happening in the West is a Mark of God's judgment that that it is, you know people often say, you know, well what's going on with marriage and sexuality and so forth is a Harbinger of judgment.

No, it's not the harbinger of judgment. It is the judgment. Yes, right. We are actually in the midst of it, but actually we easily forget that God's judgment is something to be welcomed. I Mean, this is something that David the praise will happen in the Psalms.

That you know when when the scripture says pray for governments and those in authority. It doesn't necessarily mean we pray for God's blessing on them. All right, right. So When God is judging something It should be welcomed by Christians because he's sweeping something aside.

To replace it with something else and often what is being replaced with is that is the is this is the hour of opportunity?

So.

The the Church of Christ in the West is under the judgment of God in it as I understand it. That's clear. And but what God always does.

Is.

Prefer it preserves for himself a remnant of people, you know, because it's true. Sometimes you do feel like Elijah. Don't you right? We the only ones you know, but actually no God has preserved for himself a remnant and He is going to he's going to do something in the years ahead and as you've said it may not be my generation.

But I'm plowing in hope. I mean that that's what the farmer has to do year in year out. If we're going to see the harvest we have to plow in hope. And it's a hope that doesn't disappoint. So I'm actually not.

I'm not.

Discouraged by what I see because I see the younger generation beginning to grapple with these things. Of course one issue is Some of the younger generation have recognized. Well, there's this this radically disengaged pietistic Pie in the sky when you die Christianity is in is inadequate.

And so they've turned to a sort of social justice neo-marxist sort of. Sort of liberal. They've turned in that direction because they think well at least this is world engaging and in part you have to have Sympathy for them because they haven't been modeled or offered.

Something robustly scriptural. Yeah to put in its place. Everyone's telling them one of the comments. Under one of our recent videos about of all things abortion condemning abortion person who is professing believers said I love your ministry so much, but I really wish you'd stop talking about these things because you.

As soon as you mix Christianity and politics, it's just politics. I Looked at I didn't respond to it. I just thought That's the problem and that and I ain't aims that exactly. I think what you're saying is that there's people that feel like well this this isn't relevant.

This has no meaning to my life. No meaning to the world because we're being taught have been taught for a long time that Christianity has no place in the public square.

The Political Implications of the Gospel and the Lordship of Christ

Well.

How it is the mind boggles with respect to this notion that The Christian faith doesn't have political implications. When if you look at Acts chapter 17. When you turn to Acts 17 what people most people focus on of course is Paul's Discussion with the Athenian court, but early in Acts chapter 17 in those first seven or eight verses It's very important to notice the accusation that's made against the Apostles.

That they are proclaiming another King Jesus that is the charge. And the charge is true, right? The charge is true and.

The.

When when the Apostle Peter gets up in Acts chapter 4 verse 12 what many what goes unnoticed for many people? Here's one of the things that Augustus Caesar said. Published with published one of the published Claims of Augustus Caesar was there is salvation in no one else For there is no other name under heaven given to men by which you must be saved in the name Caesar Augustus.

Now anybody familiar with Scripture that sounds incredibly like The Apostle Peter in Acts chapter 4 verse 12 for therefore there is salvation in no one else for there is no other name under heaven Given to men by which you must be saved in the name of Jesus.

That was the evangel and so the the The Roman world knew full well the Greco-Roman world knew full well That there were there were radical political implications to the claim of the sovereignty of Jesus Christ the kingship of Jesus Christ and that that would mean the end of The Roman order as they knew it that that Caesar as Lord as curious the Emperor Colt that this was a threat to the Emperor Colt people think that you know, Christ Christians were persecuted in the early church because You know, they loved Jesus.

No.

They.

The Romans were perfectly happy to people for people to worship any God they wanted so long as they recognized the absolute sovereignty of Caesar. With finality because in the end in the ancient world in the pagan world in the classical world Salvation was by politics.

It wasn't by grace. So here you have the connecting point between the only connecting point between the divine and the human. The source of all true sovereignty absolute sovereignty was to reside in one man alone the man the God man Jesus Christ.

So.

The idea that this gospel could have could not have political implications just as it has educational implications and familial implications and vocational implications is simply absurd. And the and the and when.

The.

We easily forget that when the when the when the Apostles and the early Christians Were prepared to die for the faith. That was a form of wasn't just a narrow Religious. Oh, I'm dying for my doctrines.

In the sense of like reformational like yeah in the sense of you know, I'm.

Dying simply for a for a doctrinal idea it was Revolutionary also in the political sense in that sense. It was the ultimate act of revolution or at least of maybe revolution is not quite the right word, but it was.

It was the ultimate act of loyalty To Christ because they were ready to die for the confession. Jesus Christ is Lord. We'll be good citizens. We'll pay our taxes, but we will not deny or surrender the lordship of Jesus Christ.

Now that people have a romantic view of martyrdom, right. I don't want to be martyred. I don't want my children to be martyred if I have to. For the sake of Christ, I pray God gives me the grace to do it.

Let's get rid of this a ridiculous romantic notion that is somehow a romantic thing to be martyred. It isn't so when they took that step the impact the impact of that on history was incredible because suddenly there was seen a Group of people who were ready to to stand in the face of tremendous political pressure for the lordship of Jesus.

And that's why in the 4th century Eventually emperors themselves are wanting to reign under the authority and all challenges in that while.

That brings us to the imperial gospel. Yes, I love that show with the same thing talking about that. That was mind-blowing me. I think the way you described it was. You said the gospels design in such a way that eliminates all rivals, right?

Yeah, so we're in the process of Zack is trying to tie Star Wars.

Without making us look like the dark side.

I.

Love that.

Covenant, Nations, and the Public Life of a Christian People

Well, I think God shows covenant faithfulness to his people. Scripture says righteousness exalts a nation. So there you have the active providence of God in history. That the rise and fall of nations is not random.

It's not utterly inexplicable. Yeah, there is, you know here we are in in Phoenix and. The the wealth and and power of the United States in my view has fundamentally been about its commitment to the person of Christ as a culture and.

But as we surrender it the West is beginning to go into a period of Steep decline right. And and and God will if necessary raise up China or an African nation or a South American nation or an Eastern European nation even Russia if.

If the Lordship of Christ is confessed and professed in those nations God will bless those nations as a result. And actually the founders of the United States believed that that's right. Puritans believe said it explicitly.

All of the Cromwell believed it. William Wilberforce believed it. William Booth believed it. William Carey believed it. The these people Believed in God's active providence in history and his covenantal blessings and cursings.

And I think that that that is why we've got every reason to be hopeful right now. Yeah.

Yeah, so some people don't understand that right? They don't understand the concept of covenant. You know how God blesses and curses not just individuals for their sake but that nations are accountable.

Right, you know, we all have a collective responsibility to one another out of love for God love for neighbor and so maybe just say it. Can you just say a few words about The concept and importance of covenant as it pertains to the national sins that we're facing right now.

How that how we lose that how it goes downhill and then how do we turn the tide and keep it. If there is a way obviously God is sovereign he's providential over the horizon. What's our responsibility to keep it?

Yeah, I.

Think the the the doctrine of the covenant is not well understood by modern evangelicalism generally speaking and actually I often find. I don't know whether you guys find this but I often find that.

In.

Generally evangelicals don't actually believe that God covenantly judges nations not so individualistic. They they just think that. Well, you you may or may not come under God's blessing to obey certain promises personally.

Even the idea of corporate judgment on the church most Christians don't really believe in today and that's a profound weakness. Let me give you a you know a couple of Illustrations. I mean when we think about what generally and the more theologically literate will say well look, you know God only entered into covenant with Israel.

Okay, and they'll say that that that that That covenant some will say that covenant is still active, you know, the dispensation lists and the premillennialists, right? Some will say that it's passed. It's gone.

And that's no longer the case. And and they will say well God doesn't enter into National covenants anymore. Therefore this whole idea of covenantal blessing and cursing on nations is not true. But that would make a nonsense of What we see throughout the Old Testament with respect to the pagan nations around Israel.

That's right. The Canaanites were driven out of the land explicitly for Their rebellion against God that's the reason we're told in Scripture that the Israelites were slaves in Egypt for 400 years because the sins of The Canaanites have not yet reached full measure and then he warns Israel.

God warns Israel that if you commit the same things the lands gonna spew you out. If you do the same things if you defile the land by your disobedience and sin. You will lose the land as well. So I think the whole idea of land grant actually is very very interesting in Scripture.

You know, the first land grant in the Bible is Eden and it's forfeited because of sin. And the second land grant is the land grant offered to Abraham and his descendants, which is again forfeited I believe because of sin and rebellion and Jesus finally excommunicates Israel from that covenant.

He says your house is left to you desolate and he predicts the destruction of the temple. And then but there's a third land grant in the Bible and it's there in Romans 4. Which is the whole cosmos. We don't inherit a strip of land in Palestine.

We inherit the meek shall inherit the earth the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

So.

This actually this whole idea of a land grant in Scripture. Look at the way God deals with Nineveh with the Assyrian Empire. Look at the way God deals with Babylon, you know his his kind of God's Commonwealth actually.

I mean in the end Daniel and his friends end up in God's transitional Commonwealth, which is there to protect the Hebrews the people of God. Yes, they're taken into captivity but in the end that Babylonian captivity is actually for the advancement of the gospel the beginnings of the Internationalizing of the promise, right?

So you have God's Working out his promises the conversion of Nebuchadnezzar the conversion of Cyrus or Darius, maybe they are the same person. So you see and you can't read the Psalms without seeing.

This.

Broadly international issue of covenant right. That's for the whole earth and in fact In the in in Isaiah, I forget the chapter now at the top of my head. The scripture talks about the nations having violated the everlasting covenant.

That's right. So this is not. Yes, there is a particular focus with the with the Covenant with Israel, but that does not mean that God doesn't deal covenant Lee with nations. This is why we don't take seriously marriage oaths anymore.

There's a covenant right, and if you swear before God to to.

To.

Be faithful to to one spouse people don't actually think that there's any covenantal judgment if you just flagrantly violate that right. And When Britain in our in our history, there was the solemn League and covenant in the 15th century I think it was where Parliament Actually swore took an oath to serve Christ our own Queen.

Took the coronation oath swore to uphold the law and gospel of Christ. Do we really believe that God the king of the universe does not take those things seriously that oath? Goes all the way back to the coronation oath of King Solomon.

That's that's the that's the the nature of the continuity of it. And even presidents They need to put their hand and presidents put it on exactly here in the United States hand over the curses the blessings and curses.

Now God takes that see he takes oaths. Seriously, that's why the Bible throughout scripture makes oaths of central significance and importance. Fulfill your oaths that's everywhere in scripture. So When a church commits itself to faithfulness to God and and a creedal statement of a confessional statement and And a minister then takes the oath to uphold that and then doesn't do we really believe that God does not bring that?

Individual and then that denomination if it departs from its oath into judgment. Wow, of course He does right and the same is true with nations if you want to why do we even if we don't take Covenant seriously?

Why would we in a court of law how to require people to place their hand on a Bible and swear to tell the truth? When we come to the Lord's table Paul says don't come to the Lord's table in an unworthy manner covenantally.

If you do you might get sick or die. So the idea that These things shouldn't be taken seriously anymore is a big part of our problem, right?

So.

I have a plan.

To take that solemn oath or the solemnly go if you're talking about and to rewrite it and Have it as like a web a web page up. So it's a public thing and encourage people to read it and Take that over publicly.

That is on my list of things I want to do.

Yeah.

Judgment, Demography, and the Choice Between Paganism, Islam, and Christianity

Well, you know you've you've mentioned before and I Think it's powerful and I think it goes missed. At times and not just embraced. I don't think I think all of us miss things at times but just the I just the fact that in our current circumstances as the influence of Gospel witness in the church wanes and the culture or downright abandons culture.

That's where you see the trend towards death. Yeah cultural demise. Yeah, and so as Christians is backed away from culture really particularly in this last generation on a slope just As quickly as possible as we walked away from culture.

That is where you see this dramatic shift. We're not in a good way. No, I mean just in my own particular nation. We're not in a good way the debt we have is. It's we're not getting out of that where it's just it's just only climbing getting worse because we're spending money like drunken sailors on a weekend trip and.

The moral crisis, of course the collapse of the family and it's just amazing to me like Unbelievers know what to go for like they know what to go for and it's powerful. It's just such a potent thought to think that Christians that say well, that's political.

This is Christian. We're gonna stay out of that. That the unbelievers know. They know what it means to have Christian influence in the culture like they know know your message has political implications.

Yes, they do if you that's why we have shows like hand the Handmaid's. Handmaid's is a handmaid tale. That's why the Handmaid's Tale because they know now, of course, that's a perverse Notion that they're spinning in that television series, which is so loved by Planned Parenthood supporters I mean they come dressed.

Do you know what I'm talking about? I know of it I watched it they come dressed in the in the outfits the women wear and that's the whole idea is is basically this this this like Baptist ish cult like basically takes over the world and subjugates all the women into concubines and it's just such as perverse Notion it's so stupid.

Unbelievers are stupid sometimes. So at any rate, but it's amazing people love that show and when we're outside of Planned Parenthood locally here. And they show up in the in the garb from the TV show.

They're saying something to us. Yeah, they're saying your message here fighting against abortion and for your Christianity and your Jesus. It means this perverse. It means it means this I'm gonna we're gonna be subjugated like this now.

They're completely wrong. Patently false fallacious, but they know Christianity has moral political social implications. It's amazing the unbelievers embrace that and go no. No, we know what it means.

Yeah, and that's what I want. We don't want your own power, but the Christians are going.

Yeah, well, that's not obviously why if you look in North Korea or you go to the Islamic world even in parts of India where you've got persecution of Christians and anti-conversion laws. They're there because they understand the implications of Conversion to Jesus Christ in the culture.

They understand it. Yeah better than Christians do, you know, we we just. We've been dulled into this ridiculous notion that we will that we have some sort of neutral secular culture. We just need to you know.

Asked to be free to practice our faith quietly and privately. That's not gonna happen because people know. The the non-believer knows the implications of an embrace true embrace of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Nobody cares about liberal Christianity and the people who don't nobody's bothered about any of that. They're only bothered with People who actually believe it they're seen as a threat people who actually believe in them because they know what the implications are and when you look at I Mean, here's the easiest way to look at this whole issue culturally anyway.

Ice was saying yesterday that Culture is the public manifestation of the worship of the people. It's religion externalized. So if people turn to Christ and they start worshiping the living God. It has dramatic implications on the culture now.

Clearly in Scripture few Christians would be willing to deny that God Blesses because it's the message everywhere. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. They should be satisfied. Jesus makes plain what the blessing it that comes upon those who seek first the kingdom of God and his justice.

Idolatry though everywhere in Scripture, you know to worship other gods always brings God's curse. That's inescapable, right? To worship the creature rather than the Creator in Romans 1 Paul makes clear the results of idolatry in a culture.

It's demise. It's collapse. So if people worship the living God, of course that that culture is going to be blessed. Of course it is if and the idea that a Christian who now in their home. Well, I'm a Christian in my home.

I'm doing family devotions with my family, but I'm a magistrate and as I walk out the front door I'm no longer a Christian. I'm no longer subject to this same standard of justice and righteousness. What could be more foolish than that?

The.

Scriptures are the book for the believer. Right in every sphere of life not for the church. Simply simply for the church institution for the believer in every sphere of life. So as we walk out armed with the Word of God, which is the sword of the Spirit.

We are.

Diffusing that's what it means in the end to be salt and light with a fragrance of life or of death one or the other to those who. Depending on people's receptiveness to the message we have concerning the righteousness of it.

What could being the fragrance of death mean other than Rebellion against God brings its own consequences. It is almost mind-boggling that that Christians do not join the dots here and.

The.

Non-believer and you've given a great given a great illustration of it. They thoroughly understand the implicate. You don't even have to be talking about a so-called controversial political issue to have people's backs up when you talk about Jesus Christ and his kingship and his lordship because they already are Working out the implications of that in their own life.

Life. Exactly. Yeah, I know what that means for me to bow the knee to Jesus. Yeah, that's a powerful thought man.

The Future of the West and the Hope of a Faithful Remnant

So.

When you look at the history of like England Canada United States where we're at now you have markers in history moments where you did see as nation covenant and with God you saw this up swing of Blessing.

Peace.

Righteousness, it's fallen worlds. There's always moments where that collapses and there's her sin and all that but you you do see even this trend towards as Christianity advanced from the early centuries and it starts to go really global and cultures are being transformed you now see the advance in the sciences and education and Technology you see that all Going up right and then our country is of course are Pointing straight to Jesus putting their hands on Bibles under the section of the curses by God bless our nation or curse our nation.

So now we're on this downward trend of disobedience and rebellion. Okay, so what now does what's what's judgment on a nation culminate in. What do you think that that looks like and how how is the is there reason to believe that there's a way to Reverse that or would you think that we're in a place where we just need an awful correction?

Right. I mean we obviously we don't know the mind of God we can't we're not prophets, but are we in the place where it looks like we're in the need of a really sharp correction and Collapse or are we are we in a place where we can actually really expect no, we can we can recover this.

What do you what do you think? It's actually really quite difficult to say. Yeah, it is. I'm Thinking through those implications myself. I'm often caught to be absolutely honest with you.

In two minds on on that particular question Are we so far gone that it's going to need that it's going to take a major Crisis and a major decadent falling off which we're already in the midst of or as the devil overplayed his hand a little bit here and.

Do what he often does which is go too far. And and you know has he you know with this for example with you know. The denial of creational chromosomes as being able to define the difference between male and female.

I.

Mean I look at it this way if you execute the young in the womb and The generation that kills its young will be killed by its young. So if you execute the of the young in the womb and you execute the elderly and You seek to destroy the family which by the way was you know from as a Marxist idea Karl Marx said.

The key to the earthly family the holy family he said is the earthly family. To destroy the former you have to get rid of the latter. They. So he understood the implications or he knew the connection between The triune God and his self-revelation father-son Holy Spirit and The the nature of marriage as reflecting something about the nature and character of God.

I mean you think about it in the Bible God is both father and husband to Israel. Because he is both father and son. Right. I mean that is how this is how we can use the imagery and scripture of sometimes God being the the bride depicting himself as a groom to Israel and also the father of Israel because he is both father and son.

Right. And so you have this familial imagery. The Bible begins with a wedding. Israel's relationship with God is depicted as a marriage. Christ ministry starts at a public ministry begins at a wedding at Cana.

His relationship to his church is depicted as.

A.

Groom bride relationship and history ends with the marriage. Supper of the lamb so Marx recognized. To destroy the the only family you have to get rid of the earthly family and cultural. Marxism today is trying to do the same thing.

But what we create what we're creating. But with the destruction of a family destruction of the young the destruction of the elderly we've created we have created a culture of death. Demography wise. Even the demographers who are looking at population issues.

Yeah, they're already saying oh, yeah. We're in deep trouble. The West is in deep trouble purely. It's what if you create a culture of death you have you've written your own death warrant. I mean the West is already saying you know in the end you want to promote this you want to promote that.

Fine. You won't be here two generations from now, but we will be. Mm-hmm.

So.

We're gonna be the ones we're still around and actually this is the Islamic attitude in Europe now. They'll say we're gonna win this without firing a single bullet because you won't be here and we will.

Just by breeding you out. Mm-hmm. All right, and they're right and they're right. Yeah, so.

Even there a false religion that's aping Christianity and the the power of Islam. It's it's it's it's it's strength is in it's that it's a copycat. Yeah, the degree to which it apes the Christian faith is the good of greed of which it has any cultural strength.

But we have the real message. Yeah, but we've not been preaching it. We've not been teaching the kingdom of God and so. Some days I think this collapse is gonna happen quicker than we think and there's there's gonna be an opportunity in the next 25 years for a major If if a remnant will be faithful for a major turnaround.

A recognition that this this this culture of death is is doomed. On other days, I think you know what every time I think a new piece of insane legislation a new piece of insane ideology being pumped into the schools that people are gonna Now they'll draw the line and they don't on those days.

I think. Maybe the West as we we know it is done. And that there will be a sort of as we've happened with the Roman Empire a sort of hollowing out from within that taxation and debt and the destruction of the middle classes and moral decadence will internally Destroy us rather than outside enemy.

So it is as you say without God's eye view. I Think at the moment favor the notion that over the next 50 years It's gonna start to become very obvious. That the that we really are in a post-secular age.

Mm-hmm, and that the choice is now between paganism as in pagan spirituality Islam or Christianity.

Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah, I dealt with Islam in in gospel witness and and and in Christian faith when truly represented in the marketplace of ideas always wins.

Yeah, because it's true. Yeah, so.

It may take several generations. But I I'm I'm optimistic that as the Consistency of the world view of death plays itself out. That if if a faithful people in them in the church will consistently live out the culture of life.

The darkness can't overcome it.