Matt Slick vs Mormon Apologist

Transcendental Truth, Eternal Decrees, and the Mormon View of God

I don't know if you're familiar with transcendentals. A transcendental decree or transcendental truth requires an eternal mind. You can't have, if God, your God, is beginning to become a God, has become a God, then he's submitting to things greater than him, eternal decrees.

Okay, but you're going back to the King Follett discourse and saying that God became a God. Joseph Smith's context of saying that was that... You understand what I'm saying? Yes, I totally get it. You're saying that he became something.

He was a God. He became a God. We know that. No, he was always a God.

Are you a God? No. Can you become a God? Yes. So you can become a God, but you're not a God.

Just like Paul taught, I am a child of God. We are the children of God. We are the same genos, right? We are the same genos as God. According to Paul, in Acts, where he teaches that at Mars Hill, he says what?

He's quoting a pagan philosopher.

But no, he doesn't. He quotes it. He's quoting Eratos, I think from a play. And then he says what?

Seeing as it is true that ye are the offspring of God. So he's no longer quoting a pagan philosopher, right? At that point, that's correct. You are the offspring. So you mean literal offspring.

Yes. Spiritually. Spiritually, we are. No, you mean literal. We know that God, in Mormonism, God is a body of flesh and bones. He has a goddess wife. They have sex and make spirit babies.

You know that I know that. That's what they teach. Yes. And that's one of the places we draw that from, right, is from Hebrews 12, 9, where it says exactly that, except without the sex part. It says we have given honor to the fathers of this flesh, and therefore so much more so we should give honor to the father of spirits and live.

You can't get that out of that verse. So he's not the father of spirits? Wait a minute. What does it mean? Is that true or not? Wait. You're the master of equivocation and ambiguity here. Oh, please. You're insulting me just to make it more fun.

No, I'm serious. I'm serious. You're reading.

It's called Rise in Jesus. I listen to you talk. You always equivocate. I mean, you're... What's equivocation? It's to try to equate something and move it to a different topic so that you do not... That's not it.

That's red herring or straw man argument. Oh my gosh. So now we're going to bring out the...

I just want to know if you know what you're talking about. Equivocating means to try and move the point to a different angle so that you don't have to answer the question.

Equivocation is when the meaning of a word changes as you're using it.

You're moving it off of what you're talking about so that you can answer a different question.

Eternal Godhood and the Meaning of 1 Corinthians 8

So back to the transcendental thing. Your God has to answer to another transcendental truth.

Or, as the Mormon teach, is he eternal? And he doesn't. But if he's eternal... Is he? According to Mormonism, is God eternal? No. Okay, well then we can't agree. Because... Because Mormonism teaches that.

From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Where's that? Psalm 92, verse 2. Yeah, and it's also in the Doctrine and Covenants.

But we know that Joseph Smith said, You have thought that God was God for all eternity, and I will refute that idea. So you're arguing with Joseph Smith. No, because... He said, I will show you how he became God.

So you keep going back to the King Follett discourse. And again, if you want to pick something out of context, because what... Hey, what was the King Follett discourse about? It was about resurrection.

Right? Because he's preaching at a funeral.

He said he'll refute the idea that he was eternal.

Right, in the sense that he has this body eternally. Because that's the whole point where he says, Hey, I'm going to... Jesus talking. I'm going to do exactly what I saw my father do. What is that? I'm going to lay down my life and take it up again.

Alright, so you're going to say that Elohim was always God. I do. I believe that. From all eternity. Yes. Is he the oldest God? I don't know. I don't care. Is he the only eternal God?

Again, not in Mormon context. Don't care. You don't care. You're a Henotrius. Well, so, no, because in 1 Corinthians 8, right? 6. Where it says, you know, we know that idols are dumb and they don't do anything.

But to us... There's only but one God. Right. There's one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus. Yeah, he's talking about false gods. There's only one real God. He's actually talking about false... False gods.

He's talking about idols, and then he's talking about other gods, and then he's talking about... No, no. There's false gods. There's only but one. So you can't take that and say there's many, many gods out there.

What does the fraction of the verse immediately before, to us, there is but one God, the Father. What does it say immediately before that? As there be Lord's many and gods many. That are called. No, it doesn't say called.

Yes, he does. Let's read it. It doesn't say called. That are called gods. No, it doesn't say called gods. And indeed. It doesn't say called gods. It doesn't say that? It doesn't. You sure? Yes. You positive?

Yes. What do you want to bet? I'm not going to bet anything because I'm a Christian. Hey. Does he know anything about this book? Hold on. He's got a Bible. It looks like he's got one right there. Well, we can go.

There are called gods. How are you doing? 1st Kings 8. As there be God's many and Lord's many. Come on. Let's look at it.

For though there are that are called gods. Right. Lift that word right there. Called. That's talking about... Can you say the word called? That's talking about the idols. Is the word called? Are you really not going to read the whole verse?

Are you really not going to read that? Did I say called gods? Yes, I did. What's he saying? He's talking about those false gods. Go ahead and read it. Okay. So, as concerning, therefore, the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other god, but one.

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or earth, as there be God's many and Lord's many. Are there God's many and Lord's many? Yeah, that are called gods.

Exactly. That's the context. That's not even... Yes, it is. Many that are called gods, indeed, then there are many.

The translators put that phrase in parentheses, Pat, because it's a separate thought. You don't put... Where is it? In parentheses? Right here.

As there be God's many and Lord's many. Be many gods. Right. As he's referencing the context of those that are called gods. So, this is a separate thought. Right? I mean, that's why we use... And we...

You know why Paul would teach that? Because of Isaiah 43, 44, and 45, which says God doesn't even know of any other gods. There aren't any.

Except those statements aren't about there being no other gods at all.

Yes, there are. He says there are no other gods. He says these words are none other besides me. He doesn't even know of any other.

That's perfect. So, in Isaiah 47, 10... Right? What does it say in Isaiah 47, 10? I don't have that one memorized. Okay. Good. Well, now we got each other, right? So, Isaiah 47, 10 makes a very interesting point using the exact same language that he uses earlier.

And he says this. He goes, For thou hast trusted in thy witness, thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy visions and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee, and thou hast said in thy heart, I am, and there is none else beside me.

Okay, do you know what he's talking about? That there's none else beside him there? Okay, what is it? I've read the context recently, I can't tell you. He's talking about the city of Babylon. He's talking about the city of Babylon.

Alright. Is there no other city besides Babylon? Wait, wait, wait, wait. That's fine. So, it says, I am, and there is none besides me. I shall not sit in the widow, neither shall I know the loss of children.

I am. Okay. Why don't you go to Isaiah 43, 44, and 45, where God talks about how many gods there are. Okay. He's talking about gods. Okay, so. Isaiah 44. Isaiah 43, 10, for example. So, Exodus 3, 14. I am.

Yeah. So. Isaiah 43, 10. Well, okay, so. So, if you're making the assertion. What does it say? No, I'm not going to Isaiah 43. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because. I look with you at Isaiah 47, 9. I say, look at this, where it actually talks about the issue.

You don't want to go there. We already put it early, but that's fine. I don't care. It's not. Jermaine. It's not Jermaine? No. Not to this. So, when it says he doesn't even know of any others. Okay. And there's several.

That's why I wasn't going to go there. It's not about that. You don't. So, it says. Yea, ye are my witnesses. Sayeth the Lord. My servant. I have chosen.

That ye may know. And believe me. And understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me. So, what's. So, the first question. Of course. If you want to be really literal about this.

At what point was God formed?

That's the wrong question. No, that's the context. It says before me there was no God formed. Okay. And what does it say? And after me. And after me there would be no God formed. So, there's a point of existence.

Are you saying God's not eternal? That God was formed? I'm just asking. So, you're applying.

Wait a minute. You're applying a hermeneutic. No, I'm not. Oh, my goodness. Yes, you are. You just used the Lord's name in vain. I said my goodness. Okay. So, and he can play that back. That's alright.

No, I believe that. Right? So, what it says is. It says that we, in fact. Okay, let me. Yeah, we're blabbing. Oh, we talk all the time. Okay. I'll take that. So. Hey. So. How you doing, man? Good. So, there's no God formed before him.

Right?

And God's eternal. Okay. So. So, there can be no other God besides him if no God's formed before him. Since he's eternal. Or after him. And since he's eternal, there's no God formed after. So, you can't become a God.

Nobody else can become a God. There was no other God.

Okay. That verse sinks you. Alright. So. Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made. Who? God has made what? That same Jesus whom he hath crucified. Lord and Christ. You know why?

Who made Jesus? Lord and Christ? Lord and Christ. Right. Who made him? God the Father. So, was he made after God? Yes. Does it say he was made a God? I don't know. Lord. Lord and Christ. Lord is the word for.

Lord. The New Testament used the Lord means what? No. It doesn't always mean God. No. It doesn't say it means God. But. Then, you can't say that's what it's referring to.

The normal New Testament usage of Lord is to imply that this is Jehovah.

Superiority or positional authority or various things.

That would be if I came up to him and said, hey, Lord, how are you doing? Is.

You know. That would be. Peter uses the word Lord in 1 Peter chapter 3 verse 6 referencing Sarah who called Abraham Lord. So, the word there in Greek is kurios. I know what that is. So. Okay. Okay. So, when he says he made him Lord and God, it's because Jesus was made under the law, Galatians 4. 4.

And yet.