The Trails Church Disfellowships an H-1B Heretic

Conversations That Matter

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It was like nameless, faceless accounts that were over based in India, coming after the business, writing bad reviews, and then they found my wife and they started sending her threatening messages,

00:13

I should say, extortion emails to me. And at about 3 a .m. in the morning on Sunday night, I was like,

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I couldn't, I was alone, I was scared, I was like, and my wife was freaking out, and I'm like, alright,

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I'm deleting, I'm deleting, I'm just gonna lock everything down, which is obviously ignorant and too little too late.

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Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We have with us a special guest today who has not been on the podcast before, but he is being talked about on the

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Internet because there was a story just yesterday in The Blaze. It came out.

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The title of the story is Church Joins Persecution of Texas Business Owner Who Criticized H -1B

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Visas. And I have had the privilege of talking to Daniel Keene, who is at the center of this story.

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We've actually been talking, I don't know now, maybe for a few months, just sort of back and forth about this kind of a situation.

01:20

And I'm really happy to see some coverage of this. And I'm going to let Daniel share his story since he's the focus of the article.

01:27

So welcome to the podcast, Daniel. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me, John. I think this is going to be an encouraging story.

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I was encouraged just from the standpoint that this is getting coverage and also your bravery, because it's so rare to hear of people who are in these churches or Christian institutions that are willing to go public after an ordeal like you've been through.

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And I think the purpose of that is to warn people, to let people know this is what the leadership is doing.

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And in this case, I'll let you talk about it, but it seems to me it's importing extra biblical things to discipline you, essentially, and using laws that aren't in the

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Bible but are imported from more liberal political instincts to really try to punish you and make an example of you to some extent, perhaps.

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So I want to maybe start at the beginning and just let you introduce yourself to everyone. It says you're a small business owner.

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What do you do? What led you to this particular church?

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And I'm actually blanking on the name. We've talked about it so many times. What's the name of the church? Oh, Trails.

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The Trails Church. Yeah, the Trails Church. That's it. Yeah. Some people might not recognize. So Matt Boswell is a pastor there and he has that famous song,

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His Mercy is More. You might have heard that song. But anyway, but no, please plug your business, though. Yeah, Boundaries Coffee is the name of my business.

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We've got two locations to retail, like drive through shop here, and we've got one in Prosper and another location in Little Elm.

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So just around north part of the DFW Metroplex. Very nice. So if you're in the

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DFW area and you want to support Daniel, then check those coffee places out.

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I know my wife, if we lived down there, she would be going there. She's a big coffee person and loves those little kind of hole in the wall coffee places.

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So very cool. This is your day job, but you have a ministry background.

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So maybe talk about that a little bit. Yeah, so my wife and I both were actually high school sweethearts.

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We're from here in the Metroplex, went to the University of Arkansas, and after graduating there,

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I went on staff with Crew, which was formerly Campus Crusade for Christ. And I was a supported worker, essentially sharing the gospel with international students at the

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U of A. So if you're familiar with University of Arkansas, there's a very large international student population, most of that coming from the

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Fulbright Scholarship. Senator Fulbright, back in the 50s, post -World War II, put together a massive international scholarship.

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And so the U of A presented a good opportunity to share the gospel with people who came from closed countries or otherwise would be extremely hard to reach through missionaries.

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And so we had a good opportunity to share the gospel with them there and send them back as Lord willing, as Christians in the faith, back to their country.

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But if not, at least as people who have an intellectual understanding of the gospel and potentially, hopefully, some fruit coming from that in the future.

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So, yeah, we loved it. We lived up there for nine years. We moved back to open a business here and to be closer to family.

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And when we moved back, we actually sought out the Trails Church. We came from a Nine Marks church.

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We're familiar with Matt and his music, which we loved. And we were looking for a church that preached the gospel clearly.

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And we loved the theologically rich songs. In DFW, that's kind of an anomaly.

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You've got a lot of non -denominational churches that maybe theological emphasis in their music is not a major concern.

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So we were excited. It lined up well to be at the Trails, as well as with the business where we need the business to be.

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And so we picked a place to live and joined, met with Matt beforehand, loved him, really, really loved the town.

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And then when we came down a couple of months after that, we joined the church and got involved and loved it.

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To your point, like a ministry background, I'm a Southern seminary student online and I was heavily involved in the church as a lay member, not even a deacon necessarily.

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I was leading Bible studies. I would say one of the larger community groups of the church.

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We had 16 couples. And then I was coordinating services for the welcome team, so greeting new members, getting them connected, all that stuff.

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And then running the coffee, of course. That was my job, too. Right. Yeah, that's important. So I do need to just sort of focus on this.

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I want to highlight it that you were working with international students preaching the gospel and it sounds like discipling as well so that they would go back to their countries and make a difference for the kingdom of God, which

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I so respect. It's sort of ironic, I suppose, that the charge against.

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Well, what is the actual charge? Do they have a word? Is it just racism? What's the charge that they've leveled at you?

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Yeah, so I asked for it multiple times, like in writing, just so I could give a response. Every time we left the meeting,

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I was a little confused at what exactly.

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Because on one hand, there would be this is the charge. On the other hand, we'd spend so much time focused on some other elements of the discussion.

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But officially, it's like race not loving my neighbor through like a racial animosity towards Indians, as reflected by my essentially my tone of my ex post and in general approach.

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I'm going to show that now so people understand what you're talking about. This is the post, the video that you put on X.

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OK, now that everyone's seen this video, what can you tell me about this? What were you thinking when you posted it?

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Yeah, so the post and the video was something that has been a growing conviction for me since I've moved back here to DFW, seeing the change and the effects of the immigration policies

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I've had, specifically in this region, really in this like basically five mile radius of my house.

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But yeah, the video. So what you what you saw on the video is actually there's there's a celebration that day, a

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Hindu celebration where they worship Ganesh. And so you can hear like the beating of the drums. And they've got basically they've got like a table.

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They've got a Ganesh idol on the table. And they're they're they're just drumming drums, blocking the road.

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And so it's actually my wife was was going to pick up McDonald's for my for my four year old.

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And she was like, you know, this is like this is this is crazy. This is this is these these policies are are affecting like I can't even drive down the road right now.

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And so it the post in the comment on the post was was something like typical view in my neighborhood outside Dallas.

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We have to end the H -1B visas now. I want my kids to grow up in America, not India. And that line was the main concern.

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The I want my kids to grow up in America, not India, that the elders took as as particularly concerning and that they felt like was not loving towards my neighbor over that.

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So I want to maybe take a step back here. Was there previous issues between you and the church?

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Or issues that you knew of from other people that concerned social justice or alleged accusations of racism, disciplinary issues that were similar to yours?

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Yeah, it's a good question. So the no, not necessarily. I was on great terms with the elders.

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And and for me, like this is kind of the lesson for me is in a lot of this is how ignorant

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I was of these issues. To me, I you know, what I've told the elders several times is to me,

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I chose the church on the primary issues is a Baptist church, preach the gospel, preached expositionally, sang theologically rich songs and was somewhat congregational.

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I wish it was more congregational, but but, you know, beggars can't be choosers. I was I was happy with what

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I got. And so I knew I mean, I knew that there was a left leaning elders.

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I wasn't really a concern to me at the time because I didn't

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I wanted to choose. There weren't primary issues to me necessarily. And that's been kind of my my my my complaint in all this is like,

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I don't expect anyone to have this conviction that I do about this specific policy issue or to even like be remotely as educated or have a thought about the dynamics of these of this this policy.

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I just want to be a member of the church and be kind of left alone to have my view if I if I'd like to.

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But it was it was it was them that made it a primary issue. And that was that was the concern.

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So no, there was no like there wasn't like, oh, looking back now, hindsight's obviously 2020 and some stuff has come to light.

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But no, at the time, it was not there was not, you know, any major concerns.

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I got along well with the elders and I was giving giving giving teaching opportunities and really enjoying it.

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When did you join the Trails Church? It would have been like January of 2022. OK, so this is after 2020.

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I don't know if you were aware of how they handled those issues. The only thing

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I was aware on that was that they continued to meet and they were not like the information

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I got about that when I came when I came down here was that they were they took the church continuing to gather very seriously and they weren't willing to go online or anything,

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I think, ever. And I think that's part of the ecclesiology. It sounds like, yeah, good ecclesiology on the racial stuff from 2020.

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Were you not aware or just this wasn't aware? Yeah, wasn't aware.

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Yeah. So so here's, I suppose, the question, because I think there's people in similar situations that it really does hit them between the eyes.

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And they're just like they weren't expecting it. And I do want to get into the actual issue and maybe the nuts and bolts of it.

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But I just before doing that, you know, I think it's important to take away any lessons that you might have that if you could talk to yourself back then, you know, what would you tell yourself that were maybe red flags to look out for?

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Yeah, so gosh, what a great question. There's there's a lot to take from that.

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The number one kind of lesson that I've kind of been laughing about is that like adage, the old adage, it's like you may not care about politics, but it cares about you.

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And it's like this may not be an important issue to you, but it's it's going to be forced kind of on your plate.

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And so there's that, you know, you're unfortunately you're going to be thrust into the issues of your day in God's sovereignty.

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Like he's going to there's going to be challenges you have to face. You didn't you're not going to pick them out. They're going to come to you.

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So there's that there's some red flags like in preaching. I think, you know, looking back on it, you you want a church that is preaching, addressing maybe sin directly and not necessarily addressing every cultural issue of the day for me.

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I don't I don't know how you feel about that, but but at least like naming sin.

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So so thinking back on the issues, there's a lot of like discussion about sin broadly, or maybe we use the word sin, you know, sin in the pulpit, which to me from my from growing up in an non -dominational church was a huge step up.

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But now realize that but there wasn't teeth to like the sermon in confronting and dealing with like actual sin in the pews.

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Right. It was just very like sin is this sort of like sort of out there and and and not something that's actually amidst our surroundings and amidst the people in the church.

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So do you think the church was the style of the church, the way they ran church was attempting to cater to, perhaps we'll say, the surrounding community.

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But in a way that bent the truth a little bit in order to do it or massaged the truth of the

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Bible so that it would be more palatable? I mean, yeah. So so so like Matt, he's he's definitely like a

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Tim Keller disciple on his approach politically and like dealing with and to me, like politics is basically just when we're dealing with politics in the pew, you're really just dealing with the application of like the whole counsel of God.

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To to the life of the congregants, like outside the walls of the church, right? Or something like politics is relational.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's Christian ethics sublime. Yeah. So like,

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I think that there's a, you know, in the most charitable view possible, like there's definitely a major tendency to not not take a stand on anything unless you absolutely like have to.

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Like it's it's maybe the the approach is like unless it's like unless it's in the passage, like it says it verbatim right there in the passage, like say dealing with like sexual morality or something or even in idolatry, like there's a tendency to kind of water that down of like, well, we're all idols.

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So this is something I brought up to the elders in the meetings was like, well, you know, I really just like as a Christian, as a as a father,

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I don't want my daughter like riding her bike around my neighborhood and like she's dodging idols like on the streets.

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It's just not someone I want from her for her like actual idols. Like, yeah. Yeah. Literal like literal drum beating.

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Like, you know, we're pouring milk on idols. Like, I don't want that. They're doing they're doing Hindu pagan practices on the street outside the house.

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Like that's I just wanted people to kind of. Yeah, yeah. I'm not I'm not talking about I'm not talking about medicine

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Buddha on the porch. Like, OK, you know, that's one thing. Right. I'm talking about the streets blocked.

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And there's a Ganesh sitting in the middle of the road. And and and actually with any just any reasonable out of this, that's a video

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I took. I think that's why it was effective, was it was very candid or my wife took. And, you know, but it was very candid shot.

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She was just sending it to me. She didn't know I was going to post it. There's there's videos that like the

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Indian community post of themselves. Right. So you can find all sorts of stuff of like which

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I can supply of even more public, more like where they've the yeah, the the the idolatry is not even remotely like shameful or something that needs to be like hidden in the home or whatever.

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It's it's it's it's approved and celebrated in the community. And so you'll see it on the street corner in Dallas, Texas, with, you know, the same thing, dancing and drum beating and celebrating

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Ganesh. But to your point, going back to your question, like that's something I brought up to the elders is like I just as a

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Christian, like I abhor what's evil and I want to cling to what's good. And and I don't I don't want that.

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And that's kind of where I'm coming from, because the criticism, a lot of the criticism is you're not loving your neighbor. And I'm like, well,

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I'm loving like, well, first of all, I'm loving my children. Like but I'm also loving like which neighbor are we talking about?

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Like are we talking like we're talking about the neighbor that's like being like replaced by others or, you know, what are we saying?

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So my criticism of that was in the feedback was, well, we're all idolaters in the heart. I'm like,

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OK. Yes, like we when Christ in the

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Sermon on the Mount talks about, say, for instance, like breaking the crown, thou shalt not murder. Yes, he applies the spirit of that law and that command into like anger and into your heart.

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That does not mean that like you you are guilty of sin and unworthy of hell because of that.

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But it doesn't mean you're like that's not the same as sin in the heart, bearing fruit in the hands, like leading to murder.

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Those are very different things. We don't just go, well, everyone's a murderer. So like just murder away. Right. Well, yeah, it's the irony of the whole thing is,

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I mean, obviously there's a difference there. First of all, that when you love,

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I mean, the Gospel Coalition used to have articles. It's like if you love your family too much, you love your wife a little too much.

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Right. It could be idolatry. Well, I mean, you're not blocking the streets with literal idols that are on public display.

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When when it's pointed out, you're usually ashamed of it if it's obvious to others and you're not other people aren't joining you in this practice to publicly kind of put it in the frame of view of people.

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But the bigger irony to me is that you were put in a process of discipline here.

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And like, could you not say that about any sin? Like we're all we're all just racists.

20:35

Right. And I don't even buy that. That's necessarily a sin category, because I think that's it depends what you mean by the word.

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But generally, in the way they're applying the term, it sounds like it's more of a you're against the liberal order and you want a more intact, homogeneous society that's that's more influenced by Christianity that actually is more

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American. And so these are things that build trust and they're good between people. Anyway, if you believe in that, then you're somehow sinning.

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Well, if that's I don't buy that, that's a sin. But if that's a sin, then don't we all have that in our heart?

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So why discipline you? Like, right. Why? Why shouldn't they all be disciplined? Why shouldn't everyone be right?

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If you're going to just flatline everything, we should just all be disciplined. But obviously, there's a hierarchy of of sin here because you are targeted.

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And I want to explore that a little. Like, what was the first step here? You just posted the video and got a text.

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How did this all develop? Yeah, the way it unfolded. So I posted the video.

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I think it was like Saturday, maybe Saturday evening and Sunday morning.

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It was like going viral. And I was getting I started getting like I'm sitting in church and like I'm getting actually serving.

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And I was getting like, you know, the death threats and emails because I got doxxed at some point that night.

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Are you anonymous? No, no. But like my business, I should say my business, like my information, my email, my phone number, all that stuff was leaked.

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Right. I mean, I had 300 followers and like, I'm not a public figure. So I wasn't exactly like locked down.

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You could pretty easily find my LinkedIn and and go from there. So that was my mistake,

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I should say. And I used to be critical of people who are anonymous online, like and and, you know,

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I'm not I'm not I'm not going to go anonymous or anything. But now I realize maybe maybe it's not totally out of just pure cowardice or something.

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So but yeah, it unfolded like Saturday afternoon. It kept getting kind of worse and worse.

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Had a couple of people like I reached out to and they kind of counseled me on it. I didn't want to delete the post. And because it was having it was having like the effect.

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I wanted attention to the issue. Like it's real. A real policy has real effects on on on my life, on my children, on my family, on my friends.

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And so I was I was like, I'll take I'll take the arrows. It'll be fine. I want that. I want the attention on the issue.

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And and then it was about Sunday night. That's when they started attacking the business. So people aren't familiar with the story.

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Like there was like a basically Indian bot attack. It was it was like nameless, faceless accounts that were over based in India, coming after the business, writing bad reviews,

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Yelp reviews, Google reviews, sending messages, all that stuff. And then they found my wife and they started sending her like, you know, threatening messages or should say extortion emails to me.

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And about 3 a .m. in the morning on Sunday night, I was like, I couldn't I was I was alone. I was

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I was scared. I was like and my wife was freaking out and I'm like, all right, I'm deleting it. I'm deleting.

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I'm just going to lock everything down, which is obviously ignorant and too little too late. And so then in the morning, about mid -afternoon,

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I received. Yeah, I just received a text from like from Matt or one of the elders. And they asked if I could get on a call in a few hours.

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And I said, yes, we got on that call. And yeah, we were calling to see if you were

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OK, right? All these threats and they wanted to to encourage you. No, that's that's what you would hope.

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I would be sorely let down. Oh, man. So, yeah, the call was essentially like you you've you've sinned against your neighbor.

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We've received an email saying that you use racially charged language online. And I was

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I was locked. And so I let the like one of the elders requested to follow me. I let him in. I was like, you know, like I don't have anything to hide.

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And yeah, they they. The accusation was racism in the heart, like on the post, the tone of the post, particularly the combination with the video and the statement of I want my kids to grow up in America, not

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India. And I mean, I just I told him, like God is giving me a weird, maybe a weird, stubborn backbone on these things, because I know that I'm not going to recant on that post.

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I don't think I send. And I know that even on that statement,

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I want my kids to grow up in America, not India. I'm like, in irony, they agree. Everyone agrees.

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Like we're all in the same boat. We want to live here. Even the Indian immigrants. No one has a problem with that statement.

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It was the comedy. They felt like the tone of the post. So they would affirm. They kept affirming like we affirmed the you're fine with the policy that you want to end

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H1B visas. You want to oppose even the legal immigration. They would also spend they spent an hour plus criticizing that view.

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But in the end, it was technically that's fine. It's how you express that view and the the amount of people that saw that expression.

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That was that's a little unclear. And maybe that's how they communicated. So they criticized the the post because they agree with the

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H1B policy, or at least they don't like opposition to it. But then in the end, they came around to your view or said it was.

26:23

No, they yeah. On one hand, they would say that you can have this view.

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We don't agree with you. And they would spend an hour debating me on the issue or saying you should just welcome everybody.

26:38

Just welcome everybody. Matt Boswell included. Yeah. And mostly there's there's two other elders.

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I kind of knew I was in trouble. Actually, the two elders that were brought in, I knew I had heard a little bit of like stories.

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I knew they were the most left leaning elders we had. And so I knew and they weren't my friends.

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Like there are other elders that like I would consider friends or like maybe people who

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I would think would view me in the most charitable light. And they weren't on the call. And so that was kind of a red flag to me.

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I'm like, OK. Did they come to help at any point in any of this? No. One of them took a phone call once.

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He was out of town most of the time. I wouldn't call him like a conservative or like a right leaning person, but at least like somebody

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I've had dinner with and lunch with a couple of times. And he took my call. He didn't return a call after that.

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I texted him once. He didn't respond. Like he just showed up at the next meeting. They would not communicate with me except for like official verbal communication, whether by phone or or in the meetings, like in the physical meetings at the church.

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They would only text to schedule schedule a meeting, which was my concern.

27:55

To summarize this, and I want to keep going through the details, but meeting one, which sounds like that was a few hours.

28:04

It was a long call. Hour and a half hour. Forty five. Yeah. And how many calls were there in the course?

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So there's two calls. You got to call Monday about an hour and a half, a call Wednesday about an hour and a half.

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Then important to the story. Charlie was killed like Charlie Kirk was shot a couple hours after that call hung up and then a meeting scheduled on Friday night for Sunday afternoon.

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That's when my wife showed up. That was another two hours. I thought everything was done. And then the next

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Sunday was the you need to find another church. But you need to go to a different church. OK, so to summarize the issue here, then, and I think this is important because, look,

28:46

I can, you know, if you were saying we all these people who are different should be killed, right?

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Or if you were saying, I, I hate living with these people and I want them all thrown in prison.

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Or I mean, we could go on and on, right? With different scenarios that would actually probably fit the definition of.

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Maybe not loving your neighbor, of course, they're doing crimes, then maybe they do need to go to prison. But but what you were witnessing wasn't criminal under the laws that we have.

29:24

I don't think it was maybe blocking traffic is, but it's certainly against God's mind. They're doing they're doing something evil.

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And it's opposing that would seem to me to be in line with what biblical prophets did.

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If you even got out of the car and said what you're doing is wrong, that would be something akin to what biblical prophets did.

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That's Elijah, right? So this is the thing I suppose that I'm a little surprised at.

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And I think maybe other people reading the story are having the same surprise that there's no commendation for this, because what you're complaining about is the idolatry of Hindu people.

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And obviously, it's a completely different culture. You have different language and just different ways of living.

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But, you know, at the end of the day, they're doing something that's against your not just Christian sensibilities, but against what you believe to be right before God.

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And and this they twist into you are somehow just not loving them.

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I just find it staggering a little bit. It's a head scratcher to to go that direction, unless you're operating on a very woke left type of paradigm, which it sounds like that's what's going on.

30:43

They want multiculturalism. They want some kind of like social pluralism out in public. And if you don't affirm that,

30:50

I mean, that's what it sounds like to me. Am I wrong? Yeah. Yeah. No, you're not wrong at all. Yeah, they there's a lot to that.

31:01

Yeah, I don't. That was kind of why I was not willing to recant. I deleted the post. The post is down.

31:08

But I wasn't willing to recant on the post because of that conviction.

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Now, again, I affirmed to them, I don't expect people to have this conviction that I've developed over a few years of living here and kind of dealing with the repercussions of these policies, watching the

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Hindu temple be built and in another mosque and another mosque and another mosque in country town,

31:34

Texas. I mean, like you're losing your home. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And and I don't.

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So like, I'm not my conviction with them is like, I don't I don't expect. I'm not mad at you for not like vocalizing this necessarily.

31:47

I just want to be like, I don't want to be. I don't want to be charged with sin for saying this publicly.

31:54

I don't think I'm not to your point. Like, I think I'm actually, I would say I am loving them. I'm definitely loving the other members of the church who have voiced to me like frustration and pain and suffering because of the policies, even just on an economic level.

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And so I think it would be, you know, to me, I'm like, I'm driven by I told them, like, I'm driven by a love of like literally naming members of the church who have been negatively hit by this, these policies.

32:21

I'm driven by an affection for them. And, you know, and you can argue like, obviously, an affection for the for the for the

32:28

Hindu neighbors who are, you know, to your point, are worshiping an idol and need to be called to repentance and to faith in Christ.

32:38

And yeah, I mean, I guess you could argue like I could go up there physically and do that, too. That's fine.

32:44

I do. I do have gospel. Actually, I work out with before this gym that kicked me out,

32:49

I was at another gym and I was actually one of the only Christians at the entire gym. And I had

32:55

I had lunches with other Hindus and shared the gospel with one in particular frequently.

33:02

And like, yeah, it was driven from a love, not

33:07

I mean, in some fresh, I would say, I'll be honest with you, some frustration of the negative effects that it's having on people around me.

33:14

Yeah, well, as far as I'm concerned, you're a patriot. You're a Christian who cares about his family and cares about his friends who are being negatively impacted.

33:24

The fact that your leaders in the church can't see this. I mean, it's just sad.

33:31

It's just sad. It's a prominent church to some extent. Yeah. So this process unfolds.

33:39

They pick this extra biblical charge of not loving your neighbor and applying it to this situation inappropriately.

33:49

And then where does because the Bible, the Matthew 18 process is basically a private confrontation followed by two or more.

34:00

And then it goes to the congregation. And then they consider you a Gentile tax gatherer, which is a euphemism for essentially you're outside the fold, not just of the local church.

34:10

You are outside the fold of Christ. You need to be evangelized, essentially. Is that what happened to you?

34:17

Or did they just say, we don't want you here anymore. Leave. Yes. So in the second vote, the second phone call after I was kind of pretty much immediately pulled from all my leadership positions and stuff, which

34:31

I was pretty disappointed about. But at the end of the second phone call, I asked him directly.

34:36

I said, am I on the path to church discipline? And what

34:41

I'm saying with that is, to your point, am I on the path to removal and hand it over to Satan?

34:50

Is that how you're viewing this? And the response was, this is church discipline.

34:56

This is church discipline. Uh, if you're asking, if you're being removed from the table,

35:01

I like if you can't take communion on Sunday. No, that's not the case. But if you continue in this, yes.

35:09

And that was, I mean, I was, there was silence after that because that I've, I've had,

35:16

I know people have been disciplined by the church for heinous sins, um, uh, for sexual morality, for, you know, uh, uh, adultery, unrepentant adultery or whatever, drunken, even unrepentant drunkenness and stuff.

35:29

You took the post down. So, so at this point, is it because you're belligerent in their minds?

35:35

Like you're, you're not recanting. Yeah. Because I'm not willing to confess that I'm a racist, which

35:41

I I've offered, I offered, you know, to post clarity online. Like, if this is a matter of like, people don't understand, don't understand my view, maybe it's being misconstrued.

35:53

I'll offer, I offer the clarity I'll post. I will, I'm offering it to you here. And in fact, I said, I'd love to, in that meeting, at the end of that meeting,

36:00

I said, I would love to offer like a written response to you to, to lay out the nuances of my views and how this is not racial animosity.

36:08

This is a policy that, uh, I, I, uh, there's a policy conviction

36:14

I have, uh, on this specific issue in the specific town is, you know, on this specific topic.

36:20

And, um, I actually went to write that on Friday. So that, that phone call ended, that ended with the like, yes, if you continue.

36:28

And though they like, they recently, I think they sent me an email saying that they did not, uh, they kind of counter that.

36:35

I forget how exactly they say it, but, um, but that was a direct quote from Matt. But, um,

36:42

I went to write the, on Friday, I went to write down a response and just give clarity about everything.

36:47

And I'm like, I don't, I'm still confused exactly what the charges, like, I don't even know what to address actually.

36:53

It's just racism, which I kept, you know, in the meeting, I'm like, just use racial animosity or like hatred of someone on the basis of like some immutable characteristic, like even just racism.

37:04

I don't. And I've offered that, uh, and I'm like, I don't know what to do because I have friends.

37:10

I literally, I offered, I actually said, can I bring, I had, I had a couple of friends, and a surgeon at my gym.

37:16

And I said, can I, can they like account for like my, like their

37:21

Indians can like, can they give character witness like that? I don't hate Indians.

37:27

Um, and they're like, not, they're not interested in that. They didn't want that. I offered for the, for the, for, for written a response.

37:34

And so I go to sit down and write it and Matt's Matt. So Charlie dies right after that meeting, like an hour after, and, um, had a huge effect on me.

37:46

Actually. I loved, I loved, uh, Charlie to me was emblematic of like a great, you know, public, uh, public, uh, discourse and like on, on working in terms of the political rights.

37:57

Um, and it's, it's the fruit of his, his life, uh, was, was pretty spectacular. And, um, as a 30 year old,

38:04

I'm like, right. You know, he's my age, uh, actually, uh, he was 31 and, um, it had a pretty resounding like, uh, effect for me and for my wife who was, you know,

38:17

I think at one point she said to me like, like you, you agree with Charlie on everything.

38:23

Like if, if he's like, if he's a concern, if he's, if he, you know, they're willing to shoot Charlie, um, you know, they, they, they hate you too.

38:30

Like, and that's, that's not, I'm not, I'm not okay with that. Uh, and we kind of felt an affirmation of like, man, the public witness of Charlie, his, his,

38:38

I would consider him a martyr, uh, for the faith, like just publicly, uh, sharing the gospel and, and being, uh, being hated for the, uh, the, uh, applying the whole council of God to, to the public sphere.

38:48

And, and, uh, and, and the, the visceral reaction that came from that, uh, confronting sin openly and publicly.

38:56

And anyway, so that was a fortitude, uh, give me some fortitude. And then Friday went to, went to write a response. And I got a text from Matt, uh, asking to meet on Sunday, which was like a huge inconvenience for us.

39:08

I'm like, we got two kids. My wife is eight, eight and a half months pregnant. I really don't think she needs to come to this meeting.

39:14

Like, you know, cause you just watch the kids. Um, I don't know what it has to do with her. Um, and, and in that text,

39:20

I said, you know, can you provide, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm working on the response. Like, can you provide for me in writing?

39:26

Like what exactly the sin is I'm being accused of? I think it's this, but I'm a little confused based on these comments. Uh, no, it was a response.

39:33

And I said, I feel very strongly, Matt. Like, please, like, can you give me it in writing? So I know exactly what to address, like with, with my response and what

39:42

I'm being asked to like, like what the repentance is you're asking for from me. Um, again, we'll talk about in the meeting.

39:48

I'm like, okay, fine. Um, so we go to the meeting, that's two hours. It's seven, seven elders.

39:54

I told my wife going into it, it was seven elders in the staff. I told my wife going into it.

40:00

I said, the only reason you're coming is because they're going to try to emotionally peel you off and like, get you to try and win you over on the emotional argument to, uh, to convince me to change my mind.

40:13

And, uh, she was like, I got you. It'll be fine. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say anything.

40:18

You know, I support you. She's amazing. Amazing woman. Um, and, uh, yeah, so we sat there and, and that was part of the challenge was like, even in the meeting, like it's, it's seven elders, uh, popping questions off, you know, one question, a response to them and another elder, another question and a response, another elder, another question.

40:37

So there's really no like meat and continuity to the discussion. They, they brought up two,

40:42

I think two posts from my ex account that they felt like were problematic that just needed like quick clarification.

40:49

They were not saying what they even thought they were saying. They just were being read in the worst possible light.

40:54

And I, I offered, I was like, I'll just delete them. Like, I don't, I don't feel strongly about any of that stuff. Uh, one of them was about the diversity to your point.

41:01

Uh, it was like, you know, I, uh, I think that the comment was something like, um, this is by, this is the most, the one of the spend the most time on was it's amazing what a little diversity, uh, can do to, uh, to, uh, like, uh, tear down society or something.

41:17

And I was like, well, I, I'm responding to a post, actually an article about, uh, like I think an academic paper in the

41:23

Bronx dealing with like immigrants being put into a neighborhood and the social decay that came from that.

41:29

And I'm like, well, I'll delete that. No problem. Like, that's not saying what you think I'm saying. I'm not saying ethnic diversity necessarily. I'm saying just like, there's a specific conditions in a situation that were, yeah,

41:38

I got it. Yeah. Anyways, no, no big deal. So yeah, two hours of that, uh, we had that meeting left, left basically saying,

41:46

Hey, you're like, Oh, I understand. You guys don't want me in the leadership positions. That's fine. Uh, I just want to be a member, you know, kind of leave me alone a little bit.

41:54

I wanted to be a member after all that. My wife is like, Hey, that's a little disingenuous.

41:59

You say that. And I'm like, I just wanted to be left alone. Like I wanted, I wanted the, I wanted the discipline to stop.

42:06

Like I wanted the process to be over. You know what I mean? And you wanted the possibility of being a member there still, you wanted that door still open.

42:16

I wanted it to be in my, I wanted my own decision about my continuation. I mean, this is like our life, right?

42:22

Like we spend, this is three years of our life at the church. These are all of our friends. We don't get it.

42:28

Like, you know, we don't want to just pack up and go. It's not, it's not a small thing for us to leave the church.

42:33

It's a, it's a, it's a tragedy for us. Absolute tragedy. And no matter how much we disagree with the elders,

42:39

I was actually, I actually really truly was willing to sit and disagree with them or have disagreements with them, sit under them and, but be with my friends basically.

42:51

Anyway, so, so that ended. And then it was a week later or about midway through that week.

42:56

Actually a, a member sent me a clip of a podcast from a

43:04

King's hall podcast, which I don't listen to King's hall ever. I don't have a problem necessarily, but I don't, not like a

43:09

King's hall listener. I'm more of a, of a, you listener actually. But yeah.

43:17

Yeah. Well, you asked me, you reached out to me and asked me, you sent me the video and you're like, is there anything wrong with this?

43:22

And I don't remember what I said, but I basically know. Yeah. I wanted,

43:28

I wanted desperately like just clear perspective on the issue. I mean, I had people who said like, you know, you're you you've sand in this and I'm like, well,

43:37

I don't really, I don't really, not to be like harsh, but I don't really respect, I don't think you've thought through this to the degree where I can, like,

43:45

I trust that you like have a really level head view on this. And so that was why I reached out to you.

43:50

Yeah. I was like, well, John's like, I think John's like got a great, you know, disposition and, and level headed and has thought through these issues and shares kind of my convictions on some stuff.

44:01

And so that's why I reached out to you is I just want, if you told me, Hey dude, I think it was not, I think it was a nasty post and I think you should take it down.

44:08

I probably, I honestly would have said, okay, cool.

44:13

Like I I'll, I'll maybe I've gone too far or something. I've gone off the rails. So the only thing

44:19

I can think is if there was a situation, like if you were trying to reach a community and you posted something like that and it was then used against you.

44:31

So it was, it became kind of a barrier, even though what you're saying is true and you have the right motivation. I could see someone reaching out to say on a scale of wisdom and foolishness, this is, this is not a wise thing to do.

44:46

Why don't you delete it so that you will gain more of a hearing or something like that?

44:51

I mean, that's, and I'm stretching myself to try to even like get in that mindset. Cause I I'm very much like in agreement that even you even see in the old

45:01

Testament, the policies to try to integrate those who are strangers and aliens, or at least make a separation.

45:10

You don't want your land overrun. That's kind of like what happens in Samaria and it's not good.

45:17

It's not, it's a judgment when that kind of thing happens, when the foreigner rules over you. And so it,

45:25

I think what you said about loving your neighbors is absolutely true. You are trying to actually obey in a small way, perhaps with the video, not knowing it would go viral, but you're trying to obey that command to love your neighbor by seeking to, to raise awareness.

45:42

And if it would get to someone who's a civil magistrate who has some kind of authority over this issue, maybe they could change the policy.

45:49

That's what I hear you saying. And that's what I think is a standard and very rational, normal Christian response to seeing your society and your home decay in front of you.

46:02

I mean, this is your home. You can't really overstate that. It's put on a smaller level. If people just came in your home, it's not that you, and you kick them out or you don't even have the authority to do that in this.

46:12

But if you just said like it, we're over. Yeah. It's time for you to go home.

46:18

I love you, but you, you, you need to go back to your home or if there's too many of you,

46:24

I can't hold this many in my house. Right. Like, is that somehow sinful? Is that showing animus or, or you don't use that exact,

46:32

I use that exact example. Um, did you really? And they didn't. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, you know, this is like, we're, we're called obviously show hospitality, hospitality, especially to those at household faith.

46:42

Like, let's okay. So I bring someone over for dinner. Like, first off, say, say 10 com or the example

46:47

I use is like, say they're there for, they're for, they're for like five hours at like some point. I'm like, well, you know, it's time for you, time for you to go home.

46:55

You start pulling out the idols. Let's do a, let's do a ceremony right here in your house. It was like, uh, I mean, no, not hospitable apparently.

47:05

So it was, it was funny to your point, John, uh, so in the middle, like in the middle of all this, so Charlie, Charlie dies on Friday to the week, a week goes by.

47:16

So that's the last, the second, the third meeting is what I mentioned with my wife and, and at the church for a couple hours on the

47:23

Friday, I think it was that Friday. Yeah, it was, there's a, I think it was that Friday.

47:29

That's when the Trump administration actually did change some policies in regards to H1B visa. And it looked like for a second that it was basically a nuclear, you know, it, it ruined it, uh, it was basically untenable.

47:43

Um, and yeah, it's so expensive that it wouldn't work.

47:49

It effectively did what it should do, you know? Um, right. And, uh, I had a friend actually, who's like involved with the administration, reach out to me and say,

47:58

Hey, like you really moved the needle on this. And, and funny enough, that was one of the first criticisms

48:04

I had. Right. So I sit down in the meeting and Matt and these other guys, uh, there's, there's other people not to pick on that.

48:12

So, but, uh, the criticism is like, do you really think like, is this worth it? Is this really going to have an effect on things?

48:19

I was like, well, I don't, I don't really, that's not really in my calculus. Like, and to your point, yeah. If I was an elder, like if I was a pastor, maybe

48:27

I would, I wouldn't necessarily delve into that discussion just because I'm like, I don't know, maybe it's just not, there's not, there's not a lot of prudence there or something, but I'm just a member of the church.

48:38

Um, he's, he's, he's bearing the brunt of this, but yeah, that was the main criticism. And so, yeah, I, I, uh,

48:44

I thought that was hilarious actually that, um, I, I received that feedback. And so I, I did gloat a little bit on X, uh, but yeah,

48:53

I would, yeah. I mean, who would have thought you'd count with 300 followers and I mean this, so, um, what inspired you to go public with all of this?

49:02

That's kind of a rare thing because I've had people even reach out to me in the past about Matt telling me he's woke and I'm all,

49:10

I'm like, well, you gotta give me some publicly available information or you gotta make a stink. And it's very rare for someone to do that or maybe they don't know how, but you somehow have, there's a story on the blaze.

49:20

So, so walk me through that. What was your, uh, so right off the bat with the attacks on the business that was of interest to several like newspapers and the, and the surrounding area, including the blaze.

49:32

I got connected with the, the author, Sebastian, uh, great guy. He reached out to me pretty early on and he wanted to write about, uh, like a foreign attacks on an

49:43

American business for speaking up against like the, the, like the, uh, the immigration policy, like dealt like four foreign entities, uh, affecting and delving into like an

49:55

American policy decision discussion. Right. And so he did a great job with that. That was, that was awesome.

50:00

That started the conversation and, uh, and from there, yeah, the, the, the church

50:06

I told, so I talked to Sebastian when I was talking to him, I said, you know, I mentioned that like I was having a hard time with my church and he said, he asked me if he could write about it.

50:15

And I was like, not, no, uh, not at the moment, uh, for sure. Not while I'm a member of the church and not while anything's going on.

50:22

Uh, because I do, and I, and I did have a, uh, I told the elders, I have a strong concern for the unity of the body.

50:30

And I don't know where this is going. I want to, this needs to be dealt with and Lord willing, it would just all be resolved peacefully.

50:36

And it'd be like, no big deal, move on. And, um, when it seemed like it was over with that and it wasn't going to lead to like, uh, to telling me that I was,

50:47

I need to go to another church in the last meeting, uh, that everything was on hold. There was no, there's no article that's going to be posted or anything.

50:54

Uh, that wasn't, you know, for the, for anyone to, to delve into, uh, it was only after the last meeting, which was the

51:02

Wednesday night, uh, uh, uh, actually the Wednesday night before my son was born.

51:09

Uh, so my third son was born the 6th AM the next morning. Um, it was only after that meeting that I was like, okay, like,

51:18

I feel, I feel like I am the guy to do this on behalf of other people.

51:24

I I'm, I'm willing to take that. I have, I have the conviction. I've worked through this. I've worked through Christian ethics.

51:30

I've, I've, I've, I've, uh, I was in the meetings. Like, I, I think

51:36

I, I think I handled this truly like appropriately and like, and, and, and God honoring, like,

51:41

I don't feel like I send in any, any capacity. And, uh, in the end, the, uh, yeah,

51:48

I felt like I was, if anybody was going to help move the needle for the next guy, or at least make it, uh, uh, a heavier, uh, cost to, uh, even like rebuke someone or put them through anything.

52:03

Like I was put through for the sake of something that the Bible, like God's word doesn't really speak to, if anything, it speaks in my favor.

52:14

Um, and, and, and then you've got the neglect of like, obviously like the kind of the weightier matters of the law you've got, you've got the 10 commandments, you know, that are, we've got, we've got sin in the church, uh, you know, that, and, and in their words, the elders words, this is the, they've never, they have not spent, um, this is the thing.

52:32

This is something they've spent the most time on of any issue in the church. And I was like, well, that's concerning. Like there's other issues.

52:39

There's other issues in the church. Uh, we got, you know, like any church does, but we have, we have sin and that needs to be dealt with.

52:46

Um, not, not, we don't, we have too much, too much on our hands to be creating sin, like creating sins, uh, or applying sin of the, like in the world's eyes to the, to the body.

52:57

Um, so yeah, so I reached out to Sebastian and he, he, he was super faithful to the story.

53:02

Like he, I didn't, I really did not want to. Uh, I mean, as we, frankly, like he held back on a lot of like some of the more, uh, um, critical elements of facts of the case.

53:18

Uh, we, we, I think we painted, I think like we, I didn't participate at all in writing the article, obviously. Uh, Sebastian, I think painted the,

53:24

I painted by my, uh, interview, uh, the, the, the elders in the best possible light of the facts.

53:33

Um, I think he did a good job. It was faithful to do that. And of course, now the accusation is like, I'm selling division and I've caught,

53:40

I've caused so much harm to the church. And I'm like, well, we never really got to the point. It was at that Sunday night when your wife was in the meeting where they asked you to find another church.

53:49

No. So that Sunday night. So then it's, and then Wednesday night, uh, actually the following week, uh, after I posted the,

53:57

I posted a question. Uh, so things kind of seemed resolved. Then I mentioned before, and I got,

54:02

I probably got to sidetracked, but a member sent me a, a King's hall podcast clip that post it directly.

54:09

If like, it was on the H one B visa issue and it had a quote, had a line in there that said something like, you know, what would get you in more trouble at your church?

54:18

Like saying something that was like perceived as racist or maybe like heterodoxy on like, say the

54:24

Trinity. And, you know, if you, if you err on the Trinity, you know, always a working progress, like let's work with them, you know, all these things, right.

54:32

On these primary issues. Um, but if he touches anything that's deemed as racist, if he's perceived by, uh, as racist by the world, then he's, this is, this is like, we need to get rid of him.

54:45

Like right now, you know, this is like, uh, we need, and actually the quote was, we need to have a meeting with the elders and their wives, uh, which is, it was just, it was literally my case and, and I wanted to like, you know,

54:58

I was done. I was in, in, in, from my understanding, I was kind of out of the, like the, the weeds on the, um, the disciplinary issue, but I was not, and I wasn't willing to say,

55:08

Hey, my elders did this to me, like, you know, whatever the deal was. Cause I was still a member of the church, but I did want to present to the elders, like what

55:16

I feel like is the underlying issue of, of, of the at hand, which was to your point, we are putting emphasis, emphasis, and we treat heavily the sins of like the world.

55:30

Um, and where there's tons of Christian liberty, I think, in terms of the application of God's word, but where there's clarity about, uh, like, uh, uh, clear commands of God and objective sins that are occurring.

55:44

We, we think that's, that's not a big deal and we just need to like work with people and we would never like send them through discipline.

55:50

Respectable sins. Yeah. So, uh, what position did you have in the church?

55:55

Cause I'm trying to figure out why they decided to spend more time on this than other issues. Uh, so no official position.

56:02

I led a community group. Uh, I was one of maybe, maybe like 12 community group leaders, but, but, uh, a larger community group,

56:09

I coordinated the services as far as like, uh, with the welcome team.

56:15

So hospitality stuff. And then, yeah, it was, uh, it was one of four, like, you know, uh, of the guys that did that.

56:23

Uh, I read scripture every now and then, and I would say it was, I was probably one of the more involved lay members at the church.

56:30

Maybe there's a couple people, uh, who also would kind of be, uh, and then led, you know, led

56:36

Bible studies and all that stuff. So I was, I was involved. You're on a ministry path though, right?

56:42

Yeah, it was, I, I had expressed to the elders, like, I want to be a pastor. I want to be an elder. I'd love to be a lay elder of a church.

56:49

Um, I kind of realized that was never going to happen. I fully expected that if that, if I, if that was a discussion for me at this church,

56:56

I was going to tell them, I don't think you want me to be a, to be a pastor. I think we,

57:02

I think you don't understand how, like the, the disagreement that I'm going to have, uh, as far as like, uh, some of these issues.

57:11

You know, I just was willing to like, I don't, I don't think you, like, cause again, you know, to my point, uh, to, to their point,

57:20

I guess in the meetings, I wasn't bringing like political discussions constantly into the pews and into my community group and all these things.

57:27

Right. Like I respected the elders enough to like where they weren't, you know, uh, can have conviction on the things they didn't have conviction on.

57:34

I wasn't willing to like make the church have convictions on. I was, I was willing to kind of put aside a lot of political issues for, for the sake of just like, uh, unity of the body and stuff.

57:46

Now I look back on that and I obviously have learned my lesson, but, um, I think you're like a lot of people who just,

57:52

I mean, normal, average, decent, everyday guys. I don't mean average in a bad sense. Like you're, you're above average and like your bravery and so forth.

57:59

But I mean, you're just like, uh, wanting to more or less be left alone and live your life and run your business and pursue ministry.

58:07

And it's sort of like a moment comes where, uh, and you, and you had it with just your community where it's like,

58:14

I've lost my neighborhood. I've, I've just lost, or I'm in the process of losing and people who normally don't get that politically animated, become politically animated because it's a natural instinct to protect your own, you feel violated.

58:28

Um, and I would feel very violated if I drove through my neighborhood and I saw a display like that,

58:34

I think, and not having seen that before, wanting to prevent that from coming to my neighborhood, it would be a sort of dystopian.

58:42

I'd want probably comfort and direction from my pastor and how best to challenge that.

58:48

Not, it would be very discouraging to have what happened to you happen. Um, so the, the story ends with a good ending kind of, right?

58:56

So, um, even though you get kicked out of your gym and I don't know if you've had other like altercations in public of people recognizing you,

59:05

I'm assuming not, but, uh. Only positively. No, only positively. Yeah. Have you like, have you had a good place to land?

59:13

Are you out of another church now? Uh, do you have another gym? Like. So unfortunately, no.

59:19

So like the, uh, the way that it kind of resolved or the way it kind of culminated was that that last meeting brought into the, both the elders, um, and was told, uh, was told that I'm not, you know, obviously not submitting to the elders.

59:32

I need to go to another church. Uh, we need to protect the flock. You need to go, uh, you're not welcome, you know, in as many different ways you can say you leave, uh, leave.

59:44

So there was no, I, I, I really wanted to, uh, so technically our bylaws require like, or like a vote, uh, a vote of the elders is actually would be disciplined.

59:54

Like the, the removal, uh, you actually don't bring them in front of the church, which is unfortunate. I think as a congregationalist, like you need to bring them up to the church and you need to vote for them, but whatever.

01:00:04

Um, as Paul lays out in first Corinthians, uh, dealing with the man who sleeps with his father's wife. Um, but, um, the, so there wasn't necessarily a vote there.

01:00:14

I should have kind of called for it. Um, I was pretty nervous, uh, pretty scared as, as, as you're like a toot in my horn of like how brave I am.

01:00:23

I'm like, oh man, I was like sweating. I got seven elders there questioning you. I mean, I think any of us would feel intimidated by that.

01:00:30

Very, very intimidated. Um, but yeah, I mean, I expressed them like, if you're telling me to leave the church,

01:00:35

I will, I will do that. I'll leave the church. So, um, I went home, I told my wife, uh, she wanted to talk about it.

01:00:43

She goes into labor as we're talking about it, which is wild. Uh, never, never experienced anything like that.

01:00:50

Um, our son's born at 6 00 AM in the morning, which is a delight. It was amazing. Um, and what

01:00:57

I, what we wanted to do with the church was we wanted to just remain on the rolls, not given over like to the world, like not, not, not released into the world.

01:01:04

We want it to be released to the hands of another church as our covenant requires. Um, we were just on the, we're on the lookout for another church, but also we just had a baby.

01:01:12

So we missed that Sunday and, uh, it's going to take some time and finding a church that would, would receive us.

01:01:17

Um, and, um, we, so, so we hadn't found a church and then the, the elders, uh, made public, they met at the

01:01:29

Sunday night service. They made public comments about, about our situation. They named us and said that we were not members anymore.

01:01:37

Um, and it was, it was, and so I emailed real quickly to Matt. I said, Hey, just want to clarify, like we didn't ask to be removed as members.

01:01:44

Um, yet we wanted to, we want to remain as members until we find another body. Um, it was a miscommunication, a little bit like my wife was asking about like getting, getting us pulled off of planning center.

01:01:56

It's like an app, it just, we were just getting these updates and stuff about it. We didn't want it. We don't want that anymore, but we didn't want to be, we still want to be members.

01:02:03

So I asked if we could just remain as members until then no response. And then, uh, no response was given.

01:02:10

Uh, this is like the third outstanding email at this point where they haven't responded to anything I've asked. And then at that point

01:02:16

I was like, well, we're not members anymore. Uh, Sebastian had written an article. I said, Sebastian, it's okay to go ahead and publish it.

01:02:22

Uh, and then of course the, uh, accusations that I'm sowing division come flying. Is that what they're doing now?

01:02:29

Is that, cause that was just a few days ago. I mean, are, are they in real time? I mean, I'm, I'm assuming this podcast drops, they're going to possibly watch this and be upset and yeah,

01:02:39

I don't know. I just asked him to remember our sins. They are many, but his mercy is true.

01:02:45

Great, great music. I mean, I love, I do love Matt. I, just to be clear, like I love

01:02:51

Matt, I forgive him. I just think we've done that song at my church too. So yeah, I just,

01:02:56

I just think they've, I think that they were concerned. They're clearly their concern was like the public image and it was not the wellbeing of me or my family, especially my wife.

01:03:07

That's the thing that I'm actually like a little frustrated about is they kind of, they've put out a couple, like they, they read the, they read the statement

01:03:15

Sunday night about how they've like counseled us. And I'm like, dude, you haven't canceled, you haven't counseled my wife at all.

01:03:21

Like to say counseling is crazy. My wife was totally thrown off to the, you know, I've received a ton of support.

01:03:27

I guys reached out to me and they're like, you know, like yourself, you're like, Hey, like, you know, thanks for being courageous. My wife is just like, she just lost all of our friends.

01:03:36

She's like nursing a baby and she's just being left, you know, off to the side, which is extremely, you know, disappointing and sad.

01:03:43

And then being asked to come into the last meeting. And I'm like, she's, she's due on Friday. You know, we have a meeting.

01:03:48

They want me to, they want her to come in on a meeting on Wednesday. I'm like, she's not coming. I'm not going to have her come. She's not, she's not subject to any of this.

01:03:55

That's just stress. We've got to find a babysitter. It's not going to work. And they were adamant on her coming. And I was just like, she's not crazy.

01:04:02

She's not coming. Yeah. And she went into labor, you know, if you're an hour later, so. It's so crazy to me, the level of seriousness that they're treating it.

01:04:14

So, I mean, has there been like an official statement from the elders publicly available? Or is it just more like, is it behind the scenes?

01:04:22

They're just saying things about you guys. I mean, what's the opposition? Yeah. So the next day, the next day after that last meeting, they came to my community group and they secretly, no one said anything.

01:04:35

It was obviously supposed to be quiet. They kind of gave their side of the story. Um, the, but that was fine.

01:04:42

I was like, okay, that's not really public. Uh, but they, on Sunday, this Sunday, October 5th, they made a public, they read a public statement like to the, to the membership, to the, to the church, uh, that was there.

01:04:54

Anyone who came to the service or Sunday night, they heard it. Um, and I have that, they emailed that to me.

01:05:00

And then they've also sent me another letter after the articles posted. Um, but, uh, but yeah,

01:05:08

I mean, and I can provide all that. Yeah. They are, they accuse it. Yeah. So we'll send it to me. We'll put links for people who want to look at it in the info section for this video.

01:05:17

Uh, just summarize maybe, are they, what are they saying? You're, you're slandering them or like, have you represented them in their minds or.

01:05:24

They're adamant that like, we didn't remove you. Uh, expulsion is not true.

01:05:30

And I'm like, and my response was, this is weird. He told me to go to another church. Like I know, and I, it was very clear to me, even the last meeting, what they're trying to do is they want the effect.

01:05:40

They want, they want the end result. Daniel's gone. Uh, we don't want to go through, like, we don't want to like officially do this.

01:05:47

We just want to like, we want, we want to get it done. And, um, I don't know how much more official it would be.

01:05:53

I guess they'd have like literally raise their hand or something. But, um, the elders were there. They told me to go to another church, all elders, except for one.

01:06:02

And, uh, not a member. Yeah. I'm not a member anymore. Yeah. I remember. Okay. So they did remove you.

01:06:09

Yeah. They would say, they would say, so just to be clear, they would say, because my wife asked to be like removed from the planning center thing, which we clarified, like,

01:06:17

Hey, that's not, we were not saying that we were talking about like the notifications. Um, but they never responded.

01:06:25

There should be no problem reinstating you then. Yeah. So, so we asked to be reinstated, like, just to be clear, like if you've removed us, like just reinstate us, like, you know, we want, we don't want to be left to the world.

01:06:36

Like we want to move to another church. And, uh, you know, they, they didn't respond until the articles posted.

01:06:44

And then they say, obviously we're not going to do that. It's like, okay, I don't know. So the article itself doesn't say that I was exposed or like, you know, there's an expulsion.

01:06:53

It actually just says that they brought me and they formally asked me to leave, which is the most generous way you could possibly frame that.

01:07:00

Um, so it's, it's entirely perfectly accurate. People understand when you're brought in in front of all the elders and you're asked to leave the church that you're not welcome there anymore.

01:07:10

Right? Yeah. That's a pretty good indication. So, um, you, you haven't found another church yet, but have you found another gym at least?

01:07:18

I have not told them about my issues. Yeah. We won't say where that is.

01:07:24

Keep that quiet. I'm going to work out in peace. Yes. Uh, I think so.

01:07:30

And your business, is it doing okay? I mean, despite the bad reviews and everything, are you still able to make it?

01:07:36

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's doing fine. Uh, yeah. It's doing good. Good, good, good. Okay. So the prayer then out there for those listening,

01:07:43

I think is that you and your wife and your new baby, how many children do you have now?

01:07:49

Three, three. You're your third baby. Wow. So that you would find, uh, and be connected to a good church that can, um, uh, disciple you and shepherd you and do the things.

01:08:00

It sounds like that weren't happening, uh, at least in the final stages, uh, at, at this particular church at the trails.

01:08:07

And I'm really sorry you went through that. That's really hard. Uh, I do respect your bravery and your willingness to warn others, not just about the church, but about this, this type of thing, because this is happening all over the place.

01:08:20

I mean, I've obviously tracked some of this myself, and I think your attitude is outstanding.

01:08:25

I mean, you're doing this because, uh, not because you're building a platform. You're not grandstanding.

01:08:31

You don't really don't have any, anything to gain. You have everything to lose, but you want to protect others.

01:08:38

And, uh, that's a really noble thing. So, um, yeah, Daniel, thanks for your bravery.

01:08:43

Thanks for being willing to talk about this and let us know if there's anything else that we can do to help. Yeah. Thanks, John.

01:08:50

I appreciate it. My pleasure. Is there anywhere that you want to send anyone in our final moment here?

01:08:55

Uh, uh, website. I don't know if you have a gift, give, send, go or, or I've got nothing. Twitter account.

01:09:01

No. Yeah. Just my Twitter account. I guess if you, if you want to update, I'll probably, you know, if there's like a public statement from the elders,

01:09:07

I'll just respond publicly. What's the, uh, handle for people? DJ keen one,

01:09:14

K E N E, Daniel keen K E N E. Okay. DJ keen one. All right. Well, thanks,