September 8, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Hurricane Katrina, Divine Judgment, and the Sovereignty of God

And welcome to the dividing line just got information that the mp3s and CDs of the debate with John Dominic Croson On the historical liability of the Gospels have been posted on our website we can't post CDs on a website as you probably know, but you can now order these CDs if you are mp3 challenged and If you are not in p3 challenged You will be able to order them even as we speak and so you can go to ailment org which is the only way you could be listening to us right now anyway, and Download the mp3s of the debate and let the fun begin and that also means of course that we are making some progress toward having the DVDs available as well.

They aren't available yet but we will of course be letting everybody know when they are available and Just keep an eye on the right-hand side of the blog the ad column there you will see when they are listed and They will become available at that time.

Well, it was an odd Situation to be in the the beauties of Alaska and Yet because of the wonders of satellite to be able to watch CNN which they didn't have Fox so all you got was the the leftist spin on everything from the CNN, but Anyway to to watch what was going on in in New Orleans and in all along the Gulf Coast I mean I saw one Fly over shot that just looked like a a tornado and it may have been the problem was the tornado was You know ten miles wide.

It was just Absolutely, unbelievable. I mean just matchsticks everything turned to matchsticks the power of the storm was truly truly incredible and so it was very odd to be out there and to to see the contrast between those two things, but It has truly been Extremely troubling to me once again, and we shouldn't be surprised as I was extremely troubled after 9-eleven and Have remained that way and so I'm I'm hardly in a position to be surprised that Our society has shown absolutely no progress toward having a biblical understanding of the wrath of God and the judgment of God.

I Spent some time on Sunday afternoon on the ship speaking about this during our worship time and The fact the matter is most of us, and I'm I'm saying most of us us listening right now. The the Christians says I mean I I know there are very few non-christians who tune into this webcast.

That's for certain we don't Think in a biblical fashion and in fact to be honest with you. We we tend to be embarrassed by what the Bible says Not only about the wrath of God because you know that we can get away with on that one because we can talk about the wrath of God in the context of Spiritual things and and things like that, but we we really let's face it are embarrassed By what the Bible teaches about God's control over the natural realm.

We have allowed naturalism and humanism naturalist materialism just so infect us that that we have actually learned to change our Vocabulary to change our language so that we don't have to speak like the Bible speaks.

We really have. You know the Bible says in Psalm 1357 he causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth. Who makes lightnings to the rain who brings forth the wind from his treasuries and. What we've done is we've learned to look at that and we've learned to go.

Well, that's just parable. That's just poetry. That's a pre scientific culture using nature and talking about nature in such a fashion as to. We don't need to worry about that now what we do is we look at that and we look at the poetry and we derive from that poetry.

Something that would Would help us to you know something we can fit into our our modern setting. But it doesn't really mean that he does that all that stuff about him controlling the waves and nature and droughts and floods.

And all that stuff. Let's face it there's just not a lot of Christians anymore who believe that functionally. But isn't it interesting in Psalm 135? That's verse 7. Verse 8 says he smote the firstborn of Egypt both a man and beast.

He sent signs and wonders in your midst. Oh Egypt upon Pharaoh and all his servants. He smote many nations and slew mighty kings. Then Sihon king of the Amorites and all king of Bashan all the kingdoms of Canaan.

What's that all about? That's about history. That's about real people who actually lived and you can go and and you can. For many of these people you can go and find Materials you can find their names carved in rocks.

Because they actually lived it took place in history. How do you keep those two? How can you divide those two? We do functionally don't we we seem to do so and. And so when something happens, I was sent in fact someone in channel right now sent me this in the mail.

It's from DeRoy Murdoch Scripps Howard News Service Writing from New York or else appeared in the East Valley Tribune on the 5th of September of this year when Louisiana governor Kathleen Babineau Blanco.

Well, they really typeset that oddly. Babineau takes up an entire line why they do that. Anyways requested a day of prayer amid Hurricane Katrina's devastation. I wondered why bother? Other than as a pallet palliative for the thousands in distress this exercise struck me as futile.

I do not believe anyone heard those prayers nor answered them if he did. God in my opinion is not living up to his advertising in a year that has witnessed the aftermath of the South Asian tsunami. Approximately 225 ,000 deaths Katerina 118 confirmed dead and rising and Wednesday's Baghdad bridge stampede some 953 Shiite religious pilgrims dead.

It has become impossible to reconcile current events with the notion of omnipotent omniscient magnanimous deity. The Almighty appears to be either an unaware powerless and or misanthropic absentee landlord or no one whatsoever.

Would an all-powerful God Stand by helplessly as Katrina sliced into America's bait belly like a Florida sized circular saw. Would an all-knowing God shrug while Katrina crafted something akin to a watery Hieronymus Bosch painting.

Would an all-loving God reply whatever is Katrina spread destruction inland from the sea like Sherman's March in reverse. The question why would God permit such anguish is nothing new. But the predictable reply of believers and listen to this folks listen to this the Predictable reply of believers is an adequate as ever God gives us free will to choose between good and evil.

They say you see why theology is important. So why not flatten fast and loose Las Vegas rather than the Gulf Coast essentially the Bible belt with beach blankets. Why not chase and earthlings by giving Bernard Evers Charles Manson and Kim Jong eel?

Simultaneous coronaries rather than whacking a retired double amputee not seen since she and her wheelchair vanished as 140 mile-per-hour winds lash, New Orleans. How do you respond folks the guy's right in the sense that probably the Christianity he's Encountered is so afraid of theology so unwilling to say what the Bible says that.

How can he respond any differently? Libertarianism and free will ism really doesn't have many answers at this point. Does it oh? Believe me. I know but people don't like the answers the Bible gives. They don't likes they don't like Romans chapter 1.

Did you notice that this particular individual Doesn't have any problem. Bernard Evers Charles Manson King Kim Jong eel. God can God kill them right now. Well mr.. Mr.. Murdoch. You're no less guilty than they are.

Not before a holy God. You're not so. Are you saying that? That that double amputee was also sinless. Or is that double amputee if an unbeliever has that person not been extended life? Undeserved. Did God?

Take a vacation. Did God know where Katrina was going and what Katrina was going to do. All these folks who run off to libertarianism and and Open theism and stuff. They're just afraid of what it means.

I mean at least an open theist is Being consistent. They've gotten rid of an omniscient God. God had no control over this God there wasn't anything God could do. He's he's as surprised as everybody else he he's right now probably rethinking His His creative efforts as to why he put us in a in an atmosphere where this kind of thing could happen.

I'm not even commenting about the uttering complete insane people who are actually blaming people like the president for creating hurricanes. I'm sorry, but that kind of person is completely lost all levels of rationality.

Ignoring that. Then. Did God know. You're stuck with one of two two possibilities here if God knew. When did he come to know it? Does he just have a little bit better weather predicting software than we've developed so far and and so after Katrina went over, Florida.

He he went. Oh, oh no look. Oh, man. We've got problems. When did he know Christian theologians down to the centuries that affirmed the complete For knowledge of God not using that term in the verbal sense.

But the idea that God knows what is going to take place in the future, and he knows perfectly. What does that mean. Well? There's two views and you know what I remember the the Bible answer and broadcast coming up two years ago this December and Remember how I tried and tried and tried and tried and tried to get Everybody on the program to deal with Genesis 50 and Isaiah 10 and Acts 4.

Because they specifically and clearly present to us the sovereignty of God over human events where you have sinful actions on the part of man and and Pure actions the part of God in the same action. Remember remember that.

You see we don't argue about these things because they are just simply fun to argue about and you want to win a debate. That's not that's not the reason in any way shape or form. We defend these truths, and we're concerned about these truths because they have meaning they have application and here's.

Here's where they apply. When did God know. If you are one of those folks who wants to sit back and say I just don't just don't know about this Calvinism stuff. You know I just uh. That's not what the preacher who preached to me believed.

Let me ask you a question when God created this world. If you believe that he knew what was going to take place in time. Then he knew this was going to take place. He knew Katrina was going to happen now.

You can come up with one of two ways of understanding this then. You can try to find some freewill explanation which makes no sense to me at all. But if you go that direction then you have to believe that God's knowledge of this event was passive.

It was taken in it was not a part of a decree. There's so many people a that just runs screaming from the idea that God has a purpose in This world that he's accomplishing something. And so there's no decree for these folks.

If there's no decree then there is no purpose. For the events that take place in time God passively creates. He he rolls the cosmic dice he passively takes in knowledge of what takes place. And he goes hey look I get to win at the end worship me, but there's no purpose for what takes place.

A tsunami wipes out hundreds of thousands of people. Katrina kills thousands. Maybe we don't know yet. Impacts all of us. No purpose. Don't talk to me about wrath. Don't talk to me about punishment. You can't do it in that system.

Because you have no purpose for those things. But if you have a decree. See many people I just I can't believe it a god that would do things like that. So you believe you want to believe in a God that would create?

Roll the cosmic dice allow for all sorts of purposeless evil and somehow that's better Than believing God has a purpose in what he does. And then in fact yes indeed. Not just a purpose to bless but a purpose To punish sin.

There is this passage in Romans 1 about the wrath of God being Revealed all the time and folks. We're not just talking about hurricanes here. I had a Had a heart-to-heart with my daughter yesterday, and she was telling me about the current generation and How I don't understand them and she's probably right how they talk how they act how they behave how they think and I at one point said my goodness if what you're telling me is true.

We're doomed. And she just shook her head and said yeah, no kidding. That's no less the judgment of God upon a sinful nation than Katrina's. We just we just try to close our eyes that kind of stuff. Sing a happy song.

Whistle a joyful tune don't worry be happy. God's judgment is all around us if we will but open our eyes to see it if we will allow our eyes to be biblically informed. The sins of this nation are piled to the heavens.

No nation before has had the blessings this nation has had. Never no nation before this nation has had the same accessibility to God's truth the material blessings the blessings of peace and prosperity for generation after generation.

No, no, no nation before us has had so much access to know what God's truth is and yet Corruption exists at every level. No man's word is his bond. Sexual depravity of every form is everywhere. The legislature of one of the largest states in the Union just passed same-sex marriage.

It's gonna be vetoed thankfully, but it'll go through eventually. We all know these folks do not give up. Even the very first institution that God himself ever established among mankind. The people of this nation are willing to pervert it.

We murder Unborn children to fulfill our sexual lusts and Avoid the results of that activity. We steal we're dishonest. We hate parents. Remember those are listed right along with murder when Paul starts talking about sin.

We have no excuses and Yet we sit around saying God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. And Eventually it has to be just like what happened when the people of Israel kept crying out the temple the temple.

I'm gonna destroy the temple. Quit talking about the temple. Your sacrifices disgust me. This nation Deserves the wrath of God every nation does and So why on earth am I seeing people constantly and they're all acting in the same way.

Oh You owe me this and you owe me that. I Don't hear anybody saying let's call for repentance. Let's call for national repentance. Let's don't you see people. God has revealed his law and we are constantly Trampling on it by the way, we behave and this is what happens.

You don't hear that because well If You weren't preaching it the weekend before Katrina in your church. You're not going to be preaching at the weekend afterwards. Know what? I mean if it's not a settled part of what you believe on a regular basis.

It's not going to be a part of how you respond when the judgment comes is it? No, it's not what we see. In the world around us is the law of God being applied the law of God. That God has built into his creation and he's he's put it into our consciences.

We know if we were really to sit back and think about it that God is just to bring judgment, but boy. You're not gonna be on the air very long if you talk about that, right? Certainly not now. Does that mean that the Gulf Coast?

Was more sinful than Las Vegas. No. No, I've said many times San Francisco's just slide off into the ocean if we were going to be doing on that basis not saying that that I mean certainly we've all noticed the Southern decadence parade and and The events at Mardi Gras stuff like that and you know, you know some friends down New Orleans I said, you know, that's not our city that that's that's what the media picks up.

But that's really not what our our people are like, okay, but the fact the matter is Sodom and Gomorrah may have had you know, some nice folks in at some point, but they weren't there at the end were they?

The city itself suffered even lots wife received punishment and eventually the godly have to do something one way or the other God's judgment will come and When God's judgment comes if there's anything we've learned from that, you know, the 39 books that most people don't really read anymore the 39 books that don't really inform us as to how God Actually acts in this world stuff like that that first part of the book that just gives it extra weight.

You know, but we don't really look at a whole lot that's um that part of the book Tells us about the fact that when God brings judgment. Went when the Babylonians or the Assyrians came into some Israelite or Judean town.

As they were sweeping through Murdering everything in the way. They didn't stop. Are you a godly Israelite or an ungodly Israel? Did you did you worship false gods or did you not know everybody suffered together?

Everybody suffered together and though a a remnant was saved they weren't saved in comfort new. Mm-hmm. And so it is concerned me greatly that there is such a hesitation on the part of so many to say Yes.

This is an example of the wrath of God and unless we all repent we shall all likewise perish. That's just so old-school. You're so far behind the times. Well, what other message do you have? Why are you ashamed of what Jesus said.

I don't get it, you know, we always pray for our nation and Since I normally lead the pastoral prayers when I'm at the services that Phoenix Perform Baptist Church. Anybody from there or who has listened to those sermons?

Knows That I have all often prayed along the lines of Lord. We know that our nation is Deserving of your wrath and that you would be just and righteous To bring that wrath to bear and in fact, we know that you are but we pray for mercy in the form of repentance.

Not just hold withhold your wrath until our generation gets past and then you can wail on our children and our grandchildren. That's not what we're saying. But the blessing we ask from God is repentance, but we also know that Repentance normally comes in the form of judgment.

It's judgment that brings repentance. That's how God normally does it but you know, what really truly concerns me is Some of the scariest. Scariest stuff I see in the Bible is when you get the book of Revelation and Plagues are coming upon people.

God's wrath, I mean the the form of the judgment is So clearly supernatural. So clearly supernatural and yet what do men do do they repent? If you want if you want perfect a perfect illustration of the doctrine of total depravity.

Look at what happens when the these plagues come upon men and then you have this commentary. Yet despite all this they did not repent. They did not repent. Instead they called upon upon the mountains to to fall upon them and to hide them from the wrath of God.

But they would not repent. That's what happens when God's Spirit is not active in the heart of man. That's what happens when man is left to himself that demonstrates the utter foolishness of Arminianism I've got oh just blast them enough.

They'll repent no until Until he takes out the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh they're going to act like people who have hearts of stone and So people can look at our nation and they can see The abortion clinics and they can see the strip clubs and they can see the people Who are willing to marry homosexuals they can look at all of that and when judgment comes when destruction on an incredible scale Comes do they see God's hand or are they like are they like mr. Murdoch who?

Evidently doesn't even begin to understand the concept of sin and the holiness of God people don't see it. That's part of the judgment isn't Part of judgment the taking away of sight. Taking away of hearing let him who has ears to hear eyes to see the final stages of judgment are the removal of even the recognition of the judgment.

So an amazing thing. It's a frightening thing and so When you Hear people talking about this subject over the course of the next number of weeks. You hear people reaching out, you know, we've Been doing our part.

We've been trying to help folks. We you know, I appreciate a comment that was made by somebody. They're a little bit amazed at how many Christians are giving to non non churches. You know you give to a church and you're giving to somebody who's got boots on the ground.

They know who's who? Well We reach out we try to help but we don't do it by saying oh what a purposeless tragedy. No, you have a message God punishes sin. You can't get away with this constant spitting in God's face.

He's not gonna allow it. Eventually Remember God is not mocked and all the way, you know, I I think mr. Murdoch was mocking God. What do you think? What do you think? Sounds like to me. Well, that's that's not the easiest way to get the program started.

I know see for many people you'd say see you just destroyed your entire program because you know, you've been. You you haven't even been nice to your listeners. Because see if I wanted to if I wanted to Make it easy on you.

If I wanted to pander to you. Because I was gonna have a spot about you know. Giving us money or something. It really helps when you don't do a bunch of that stuff because then you can say what you need to say.

But if I was gonna do that, then I would have presented this in such a way as to give you an out. But I didn't I I you know, we all are Facing judgment here. We filled up your gas tank recently. Oh real judgment.

Yeah. Well, you know when it starts in impacting what you can do and where you can go and what your food costs and and. You know, there's tough times ahead. There's tough times ahead where our priority is going to be.

So yeah, this is uncomfortable for everybody. I if I had been trying to pander this stuff. Then I would have found a way to let you all out of that and we could have been just been talking about everybody out there see everybody out there.

But that's really not how you do it. So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we're gonna take a break and I don't know why anyone would want to call in right now, but That's the phone number if you're a brave and daring soul eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one we'll be right back.

Justification, Calvinism, and the Authority of Scripture

Today many stop strong and true. What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book. Chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called Extreme Calvinism defines what the Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen, but free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same-sex Controversy.

James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy. Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen org how the pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

Debates, Catholicism, and the Meaning of Baptism

And welcome back to the dividing line yes two dividing lines in a row two days in a row but of course that was due to the fact that got in early on Tuesday from the debate and the crews and You've just tuned into the program since the beginning.

I Would like to remind you all that the mp3s of the debate on the historicity of the Gospels Specifically in regards to the claims of the Jesus seminar and dr. John Dominic Crossan recorded weekend for last in Seattle are now available at a omen org and you can order the CDs as well if you don't do the mp3 download thing and As well the DVDs will be coming in the not too distant future.

We certainly hope that obviously is a a little bit more Challenging a Topic to address about a week away, or so. We'll see how all of that all that goes. I Am going to be posting a blog article coming up.

Well, hopefully later today or this evening. Maybe tomorrow morning. I don't know. But I finally got hold of the book review written on the Roman Catholic controversy. From you know this is a 1996 book, and it was just reviewed by dr. Geisler's Christian apologetics journal, and it was reviewed by Ralph McKenzie now Ralph McKenzie was dr. Geisler's Co-author on his book on Catholicism, which may be why my book got reviewed nine years after it came out there might be other reasons like the powers freedom, but Ralph McKenzie, and I have spoken a number of times I Remember speaking to him in 1995 in fact before my book came out at the CBA convention about their book and about my feelings about their utilization of Jimmy Akin as someone to Basically run their materials by and the viewpoint taken by the book on a number of issues regarding debates I had done so on and so forth and One of the things that was was mentioned was the fact that This is one of the saddest to me saddest paragraphs in the review, it's the second paragraph John H. Armstrong who is director of Reformation revival ministries and has spoken in a number of conferences including promise keepers writes the forward I'm not sure exactly what that had to do anything.

But anyways Armstrong has informed me that his opinion of the Catholic Church has changed and that he would not right now. What he did then due to interaction with Evangelical scholars including Harold OJ Brown Timothy George Thomas Oden and John Woodbridge.

He now views the Catholic Church as a true church. I'll be at one with serious errors in other words evidently the Gospels no longer the key issue there and It's interesting when simply reviewing my book at one point.

When I talk about the essentials of the gospel McKenzie says concerning justification white states of Christ perfect righteousness is imputed credited to the believer on the basis of faith Evangelicals to understand justification to be imputed put to our account.

However, as Alistair McGrath points out this concept was a Protestant one and unknown by Augusta and the church fathers prior to the Reformation sound familiar, of course mine was a biblical presentation and McKenzie doesn't interact with that but Truly amazing thing to to read this stuff.

I'm gonna be writing a response, but one of the things he he concludes Basically, and I've we've got a bunch of lines lit up, but I only have one on my screen. So I'm looking here. Okay. He concludes by saying something along the lines of James why is dedicated Christian.

I believe he would be more effective if you would avoid having food fights with triumphalistic tridentine Catholic apologists. Well, mr. McKenzie, those are the folks that are stealing people out of your church while you're not looking and I was pondering that particular statement.

I went home and I looked through my mail and I had received a a Fundraising letter from the coming home network. Right now we're helping almost 440 Protestant clergy who are on their journey to Rome. Please read this important letter concerning health consider helping us help more Protestant clergy convert to the Catholic faith.

You may be their only hope. What would mr. McKenzie say to that. What would he think about these these Roman Catholics who are so intent upon converting Protestant clergymen, why would you do that? If Rome is a true church, but just has some serious error I'll quote some from that letter in the blog article when I get around to getting finished and getting it up.

You just Don't know where the lines are anymore. Sometimes, you know, you just You just don't know. Well lots phone calls and some are on topic some are not. We have one here. I'm gonna I'm not going in order here.

I'm going on the order of of the topic itself and We'll try to get to everybody we got a few minutes left here, let's talk with Scott up in Washington again. Hi Scott. Hey James. Good to talk to you again.

Yes, sir.

Hey, I kind of off-topic for just a sec. Um, I suppose then since since he's ever known known that concept. He must not exist.

That would be somewhat temporally anachronistic In reality, but I I hear your points and of course, you know, I I find that kind of simplistic statement to be Not helpful and I'm talking about you. I'm talking about his simplistic statement here to be really not helpful at whatsoever especially in light of the fact that I Was presenting a biblical presentation of justification there which he would say he would agree with but that's where these folks really start getting very mushy as to What is the ultimate authority and that's why you have to end up going back to solo scriptura and things like that.

And that's where we run into our quote-unquote reformed Catholics who are running around sowing confusion and things like that.

But anyways, yes your original your original point my original part of talking about the hurricane and. To my other friends ago. They're solidly reformed and another guy I haven't quite pegged him but I think he's pretty much in our minion and We both my my mother reformed one of my other reformed friends and I said the odd and that that it was his purpose you know in his judgment against sin and You know, he it the thing that amazed me about his response was that well.

What about all of the in it's about all the yeah, all the all the churches that lost their buildings and I said Well doesn't judgment start. We're gonna sit here and blame the homosexual community in New Orleans first.

I'm gonna blame the church in New Orleans first. Well, you know, like I said You know, I don't know about blaming the church in New Orleans. I think every church You know has reason to examine itself.

We all need to be constantly reforming. But the fact the matter is this nation as a whole. We we close our eyes. We we simply do not do not pay attention because it's so pervasive around us to the sin.

I mean when you look at the Even destroy the description of lot when it says he was a righteous man says his soul was tortured by the unrighteousness of the people Around him. Let's face it. We found ways of hiding ourselves from the unrighteousness that is all around us.

There are no innocent people when it talks about innocent people. No, there are no innocent people that that's that's why since so many Evangelicals have become in essence Pelagians where there's no original sin now.

You've got innocent people and stuff like that. You see again the importance of sound Theology in those particular those particular contexts. That's that's you know, where we have to be very very careful about that.

So yeah it all comes back to whether you believe everything the Bible teaches about God's purposes and his judgment upon sin or whether you don't and Since we don't concern ourselves with theology. We don't have a leg to stand on in Answering questions and we so we have to go with with worldly responses and as that article I read from the obvious non-believer.

Our worldly responses really sound very hollow. They really sound very hollow. Completely they're inconsistent. Oh, it's about free. Well, you know, it's oh, please give me give me a break.

Anyway, yeah, and I totally agree with you and I wasn't trying to blame that church in particular. When when we see these tragedies of the people of God. We should be introspective first before we start blaming the finger over at the pagan.

Well, we should look at ourselves.

Well, but at the same time we also should be the ones who see it. I think one of the the ways in which judgment in general When it comes upon the world the first people who should recognize it for what it is Are the people that are carrying around the book that describes it and we're the very ones that are running away from that.

We're the very ones that are embarrassed by that. We won't we won't identify it for what it is. And so we should be the ones the the judgment beginning with us. We should be the ones who see it, but we're we're the ones who are avoiding.