February 20, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Dawain Atkinson, John Crotts, Kofi Adu-Boahen, and Austin Huggins

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, Champaign County, Illinois, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming to ironsharpensironradio .com.

My name is Eric Nielsen, and I'm sitting in today for Chris Arnzen. Today is day six of our series of interviews from the recent G3 conference, G3 2020, and today we have not one, not two, not three, but four interviews, so we're going to hit the ground running.

Our first interview will be with DeWayne Atkinson from The Bar Podcast and The Bar Podcast Network. That will be followed by an interview with Pastor John Kratz of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

And then we'll have our annual visit from Kofi Adu-Bwahin of Grace Community Church of the Rogue Valley in Medford, Oregon. And finally, we'll round out the show with Pastor Austin Huggins of Christ Evangelical Christian Fellowship in Milton, Florida.

There's a lot of ground to cover today, so let's get started.

The Bar Podcast, Reformed Identity, and G3 Conference Encounters

Here I am once again at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, at the Georgia International Convention Center, and I am thrilled to have back on the program for an on-site interview DeWayne Atkinson, founder of The Bar Podcast.

And there are two things you should know right away. The Bar Podcast has nothing to do with alcohol consumption, and the acronym BAR does not stand for Black and Reformed, even though my guest DeWayne Atkinson is both of those.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm not at the bar, though. You said both. What do you mean? You said the bar don't stand for alcohol. I don't have alcohol, because I can't be both. I can either be...

No, what I mean is you're both black and reformed.

Oh, okay.

Even though the bar doesn't stand, the acronym does not stand for black and reformed.

Got it.

It is biblical and reformed.

Awesome.

Because, obviously, your average white dude like me is going to automatically think that if a black brother is reformed, his ministry has to automatically mean something predominantly about his blackness.

It happens a lot.

But anyway, brother, it's great to have you back on the program, and why don't you tell our listeners something about The Bar who are unfamiliar with you.

Awesome. Well, first, thank you for having me back. Definitely a privilege and an honor. For those that don't know about The Bar, The Bar Podcast is pretty much a 30-minute really casual conversation with guests.

I do guests every week. Every Tuesday, we have a new guest. A lot like Iron, Sharp, and Zion, we really try to seek out unique personalities and gifts to the body of Christ and just bring you a really laid-back conversation every week.

And you like to ask questions of your guests that normally you might not even hear asked during a Christian interview that don't even necessarily have anything to do with the church or the faith, just the common things that people might enjoy in life that we are all given liberty to enjoy that don't necessarily have anything directly connected to theology or anything.

Right, right. Because that's a conversation you rarely hear. A lot of times we see those guys on platforms, we're very formal in interviews, so I like to kind of play on the more human side. Any time you can get Lincoln Duncan talking about Motown, or you can get Al Mohler talking about bass fishing, that's something you just won't normally hear.

So being here at the G3 Conference, which I know that you share my enthusiasm over this, it's a monumental event. What can you share with our listeners about some of the folks you've met and perhaps experiences that you've enjoyed while at the 2020 G3 Conference?

So first of all, man, G3 to me is like a class reunion slash family reunion.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

It really feels like home, it really feels like a place where you see all the friends you see online, you finally get to see them back in person. So that's the number one thing I love about G3. Also being able to, for me, being able to not only connect with people that are listening to the show, but also introduce people to the show.

Because a lot of people come, the first thing I ask them is, do you listen to podcasts? They're like, yeah, well have you heard of us? Or no, well here's my card. So it's an opportunity to do that. And probably one of my favorite moments so far, I had a young lady come, a young white lady come up to the table and say that she's been listening to the show since the beginning.

And like you said, just thinking, because I'm a black reformed guy, not necessarily thinking about race or anything, but just to know that my show is reaching those different neighborhoods, different limits that it probably wouldn't normally reach.

Reformed Theology in the Black Church and the Gospel as the Answer to Racism

Now because of the fact that you are reformed, and I'm sure you would even admit in the black community and even in the black Christian community, that is a very small minority. I mean, it's even a minority amongst white Christians today, not historically, but today it certainly is.

But have you had any negative feedback from your black brothers and sisters, or even just black folks from the community, whether they're believers or not, from what you're doing?

Sure. So not really negative feedback. Here's why. A lot of people don't know about reformed theology. They have no idea what it is. A lot of people from my neighborhood, they're wearing bar gear, have no idea what reformed stands for or mean.

And even Christians...

They're wearing it, they don't even know?

Because I'm a likable person. They want to support me. And so they're wearing it, not even knowing what it means, what it is. And so I find that in the black community, especially in a lot of churches, they believe in a lot of sound teaching, like Trinity and just understanding the sovereignty of God.

It's just never been put into place theologically. They never been explained, like there's a doctrine that does this, or you believe this for a reason. One of the reasons why I was so intrigued by reformed theology, because it explained the very thing that I believe.

I always believed it because of the church. I was like, oh, you know, we sang this song, you know, Blessed Trinity. I didn't know, you know, that it was the actual adoption of a triune God. So a lot of black Christians believe in the sovereignty of God, believe in the Trinity, believe in, you know, a lot of times the doctrines of grace, but they just don't know to label it that.

And so I rarely get pushed back either because they have no idea or they believe it anyway. And I was like, well, you know, I just never knew what it was.

Have you seen folks, no matter what color they are, come from out of either non-reformed or even aberrant or false religion into the reformed faith because of the bar or because of any contact with you?

Sure. So I've actually talked to, you know, via inbox, people that found the podcast and whatever episode it may have been that exposed them to, you know, reformed theology. And then that, because I always say, you know, we're kind of like the gateway, you know, it's very informal, very frontline.

So they will hear my podcast and then that'll lead them to, you know, an author that they may mention or they'll follow that person up. And that was part of their journey of coming out of, you know, especially charismatic because I have a lot of charismatic friends because that was my background.

So a few people that were connected to me that way heard a podcast and was able to follow that train using the podcast to get out of, I guess, the charismatic ideology.

And you actually have an entire network. It's not just your program. Yeah. Tell us about some of the other programs on there.

Sure. So probably the most popular one, and they're actually surpassing the bar, would be Just Thinking with Daryl and Virgil. They do...

Daryl Bernard Haverson.

Yeah.

And Virgil Walker.

Virgil Omaha Walker. And so they do like a, I guess you could say they handle current events and they deal with a lot of social justice issues from a biblical worldview. Very rich in content. So they are, you know, the Just Thinking podcast.

We also have Pastor Discussion. John Hawkins and one of his associate pastors do a weekly show, talk about just life as a pastor. Then we also have Guys with Bibles, three guys that do like a biblical study throughout the Bible.

Then we also have Truth and Fire, the podcast. A lot of people recognize the Truth and Fire host. She actually is on the American Gospel documentary. The only black lady on there, Candace. She's the host of the Truth and Fire podcast, which is also on the Bar Podcast Network.

Mark Dever, Rosaria Butterfield, and the Priority of Evangelism

Cool. Now, why don't you tell us about some of the most fascinating encounters you've had in the podcast world through the bar. Some of the things that have the most lasting impact on your mind and memory that you cherish the most, et cetera.

Gotcha. So, you know, a lot of people ask that question, like, you know, as far as what episode or what show, because I, you know, interview a lot of people. And so always, number one on my list is always the time I interviewed Mark Dever.

And Mark, he pretty much felt like a punch in the gut. I have a ex-employee that I had was agnostic, and I was asking Mark for, you know, some tips on how to, you know, how to evangelize to this guy.

And so Mark made a statement on the podcast. He said, you know, he kind of said it in a prayer. He said, I pray that you care just as much about your employees soul as you do this podcast. And that hit me hard because I really cared about the podcast, you know.

And so that was very humbling, very, you know, made me, you know, readjust and just, you know, remind myself that the priority isn't the podcast. The priority is helping, you know, win souls of Christ.

So that was big. Number two was Rosaria Butterfield. She was on the show, and she had just wrote the book, The Gospel Has a Housekeeper. And she

Wow, you've interviewed her on that book before. I have.

Oh, okay.

I've been wanting to, and there have always been some kind of unfortunate circumstance that made our schedules not match up.

Well, you know, that's rare that I get it before you, just FYI. So I had her on the show, and she was talking about the book. And she literally was talking about, you know, opening your house, letting your house be, you know.

And me, I am a security, you know, concealed weapon, you know, and I'm like, grr, like, I'm going to let somebody in my house. And she said, you know, if it wasn't for somebody letting her in their house, she would still be, you know, a lesbian pretty much.

And that was like, poof.

Yeah, her giving her testimony on my show a couple of years ago, that was definitely one of my fondest memories of an interview as well. One of those really remarkable transformation stories of a self-professing leftist and lesbian who actually has become a Christian and a transformed human, now heterosexual, and in a marriage with a pastor and so on.

So just a really phenomenal and amazing story.

Yes, sir.

The Gospel Alone Is the Answer to Social Justice Confusion

One of the most controversial issues that, unfortunately, as you are fully aware, that is dividing brothers and sisters is the social gospel, or I should say the social justice issue. And it's interesting that I have had men on my program who only nine years ago, I've had Thabiti Anyabwile, I've had Anthony Bradley on my show, and just nine years ago they seemed to be saying very different things than they are saying today.

And what is your take on what is going on with that issue?

I think we talked about this last time I was on the show. My take on the issue, man, those guys, their theme is more than the gospel. My theme is, it's the gospel. That is the answer. Racism is a sin.

Sin is a gospel issue. I don't think, or I know we won't see the reconciliation of sin in this lifetime. That will come when Christ returns. So just like adultery, just like any other sin in the world, there's nothing we can do on this side that will cure it besides preach the gospel and allow God to change hearts.

That's the only thing that fix that. And it don't matter if it's, like I said, if it's racism, it don't matter if it's adultery, it don't matter if it's fornication, whatever that sin is, because it is a sin.

Only thing, only cure, only answer is the gospel.

Amen. And the thing that's tragic is that it seems, I will give the benefit of the doubt to many of these folks involved in that movement, that it's unconscious, but many of them have clearly attempted to fight racism with racism, with their own form of racism, and some of them would even claim that they cannot rightly be accused of racism, which just for the record, when Anthony Bradley was on my show nine years ago, he laughed at the notion that a black person could not be racist, and he mocked the idea.

Wow. So, but what do you think are, from your own experience, what you have witnessed around you, what are the most pressing issues that have created conflict between the church and the world that have most predominantly manifested themselves in your own surroundings in the 21st century?

That is a complex question. I don't know, you know, so many things come to mind. You know, I think about, well, within the church, I think about the social justice issue, you know, dividing, you know, brothers and sisters, but as far as the church in the world, I think really that's when you get into the political side, you know, with the left, you know, and the conservative, and, you know, just the whole world wanting to go left, wanting to be liberal, wanting that, you know, and then the church, you know, trying to find that line or, you know, the world drawing the line for them and then trying to be on the right side of that line.

So I think that's probably the real issue. And talking to James White, he'll make you nervous because he'll make you feel like that, you know, the government is going to shut down religion and we got to scan our face to go to church.

So that's also, you know, maybe on the horizon, man. I had him on the show, well, I interviewed with him yesterday and he just, he was talking about, you know, all the third world countries, how they're dealing with that.

And so, I mean, that has to be on the list as well.

Yeah. Well, sometimes when I speak to James White, he has the same effect on me as Paul Washer does where I start to feel depressed for a while. But that should come with self-examination.

True. Right, right.

But both, thankfully, masterfully direct us to the loving arms of a merciful Savior.

Correct.

While giving us the bad news and then giving us that good news to follow up.

That's right.

Podcast Ministry, Network Standards, and Contact Information

Well, you are obviously in the podcast business, you're in the podcast ministry. What kind of counsel can you give to Christians listening who, perhaps they're a pastor, perhaps they're just a learned individual, they feel that they perhaps have gifts that would lend themselves to starting a podcast.

What kind of advice can you give to them about things like that?

Yeah, now that's my passion. You tapped into what I'm really passionate about. My advice to those folks, man, is the Nike slogan, just do it. Podcast is the future. We live in a Netflix society. Everybody wants things on demand.

Podcast is radio on demand. If you're interested in any shape, form, or fashion, I say do it. You literally can start a podcast today with just a smartphone and be on iTunes, Google Play, all over the world with just a phone.

No microphone. Me and you, we're speaking on some pretty high-tech devices right now. But you literally can jump on a podcast in a matter of minutes with just your phone. My encouragement would be to just do it.

Don't overthink. Don't over-manuscript. I have people that give me a whole thesis of, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. No. If you feel called to that, especially now, because there's no NBC, there's no ABC, there's nobody restricted who can start a podcast.

If you feel called to do it or if that's something you want to do, my advice is to do it. Reach out to me. I love helping people start. I'm telling you, that's my passion. You see, I'm lighting up right now because I love helping people start podcasts because I think it's the one media that is free.

There's ways to do it that is free and that also is open to everybody.

If someone, perhaps they are already familiar or becoming familiar through this interview with The Bar and your network, and they say, wow, I'd like to be a part of this network that Dwayne Atkinson is talking about, what kind of information can you give them?

What are you looking for in somebody who has a podcast or wants to start one?

Sure. So, because my name is on it, I'm very, very, very, very, very picky about who I allow on the network. It is a very strenuous investigation, but you always reach out to me through the podcast website, thebarpodcast .com.

There's a comment section where you can send me a message and then myself, my team, we will evaluate. We'll look at it. We won't ruin your social or anything, but we'll really get into it and just make sure that the context is, make sure what you're talking about isn't already duplicated on our network, of course, as well as make sure what you're saying lines up with the same things that we're saying.

Will you have like a mission statement or something that they have to be in agreement with?

So, I'm actually developing one. I'm developing one. I'm using the rest of the people on the team to do that, but yeah, that's definitely, that will be something.

What would prohibit somebody from being on your network?

Probably their stance on social justice, of course. You know, definitely, you know, the content, like I'm particularly about, like I said, about what I put my name on, so it has to be either someone with a good, the content has to be good.

They have to be talking about something. They have to have a niche that fit within our network. So, you know, if you don't have those pieces, then, you know, that wouldn't be a good fit.

Well tell our listeners again how they can get in contact with you.

Yeah, so if you just go to the bar podcast .com and there's a little contact us tab and you can message me right there. I'm the only person that check it and I definitely will respond. Well, Darryl, Darryl, almost, I'm not as smart, not as smart, close, you're getting close though.

Dwayne, it's always a pleasure to have you on Iron Sharpens on Radio. It's always a pleasure seeing you at the G3 conference and I hope I continue to see you here and other places that the Lord may open up opportunities for fellowship and God bless you and the bar.

Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You know, I always say you're the legend, man, so I really appreciate it.

Well, I am honored to know that you had told me at one time that I was at least a part of the motivation for you entering into the podcast realm.

Yes, sir. Thank you.

All right. Thank you.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. My name is Eric Nielsen, I'm sitting in for Chris Arnson, and we're listening to interviews from the recent G3 Conference. This next interview is with Pastor John Kratz of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

Chris Arnson again on site at the G3 Conference at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, and this is the final day of the G3 Conference, and I have with me for another interview, as I have in the past not only had this guest on for a live telephone interview for the two-hour program on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but I've also had on-site interviews with him here at the G3 Conference.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor John Kratz of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

Thank you very much, Chris, it's an honor to be with you.

You are also the pastor of my most recently former pastor, Mark Rimaldi, his parents Dale and John Rimaldi are members of your congregation.

That's right, that's right.

And well, tell us about, tell our listeners about Faith Bible Church of Sharpsburg, Georgia. For those of my listeners who have not yet heard you.

Yes, so we're, I've been serving there for about 24 years, and it's just a strongly evangelical reformed church, we're part of FIRE, the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals, and usually known for preaching expositionally through books of the Bible, but just a high view of God, and just a sweet congregation.

Another distinctive that in God's providence, we've been able to have a counseling ministry through our church to the community. Here in the South, everybody sort of thinks that they're Christians, I often make the joke that as a Southern pastor, my job is to get people lost, you know, so that they can become real Christians, but because of that, biblical counseling is very strategic.

Many people obviously have problems, and so they come, they're happy to come to a church to try to receive help from the Bible, and we offer this for free to the community, and so we're very, very grateful to have seen people come to Christ, and marriages put back together, and things like that, just using the scriptures as we seek to minister to the community.

Graciousness, Cage-Stage Calvinism, and the Call to Speak the Truth in Love

Now, you're a prolific writer, can you please list the books that you've written?

Yeah, thanks. So, most recently I've written Graciousness with Reformation Heritage books, sort of trying to be the cure for cage-stage Calvinism, you know, we all get very zealous for the truth, and my aim in this book is to say, how can we be gracious and maintain our passion for truth?

So, speaking the truth in love. And I've been privileged over the years to have written the John Newton bite-sized biography in that series that came out, and Upsetting the World, which is an exposition of Acts chapter 17.

The book that I've written that maybe has done the best is just a little small booklet Mighty Men, The Starter's Guide to Leading Your Family, and then I've done Craftsman on the Book of Proverbs, and Loving the Church, both with Shepherd Press, and then with Martha Peace, Tying the Knot Tighter, kind of little marriage reminders and application questions, so, it's been a great blessing to have written over the years and see the Lord use those in different ways as people get a hold of it and read.

You know, Jim Eliff?

Oh, yeah.

Jim, he said, you know, if you write small books, they get read. They're not as impressive, but they actually get read, and so...

Yeah, that sounds like something Jim would say.

Yes, yes, so I resonate with that.

Please extend to him my greetings. It's been a long time since I've spoken with him. Yeah. Dear brother, you mentioned before cage-stage Calvinism.

Right.

And I think that there are occasions when that cage-stage may erupt in many of us. I don't know if it ever erupts in you. You seem like a very gracious and humble type of a brother, but there is an attitude that people can develop, perhaps a defense mechanism, because Calvinism, Reformed theology, the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace are a, today, in the 21st century, a minority on the Christian landscape.

Right.

A growing minority, sometimes growing in very good and healthy ways, and sometimes the resurgence of Calvinism has, I think, gone in wrong directions.

Right.

But we can, at least I know I can, and I know people that I, brothers that I know can, have that cage-stage or that anger return when we constantly see the beliefs that we cherish misrepresented, caricatured, maligned.

It's especially infuriating when you hear what we believe attacked with complete ignorance.

Right.

When you know that many people who oppose what you believe have never read the actual champions of this theology. They've only read the polemic books against it by those who already hate this theology.

So what counsel can you give to those of us who may either be remaining in a cage-stage far longer than we should, or when we see that ugly side of our personalities rear its head, and actually we begin to contradict the very things that we believe, because obviously the Doctrines of Grace are intended to humble us to the dust.

That's right. Yeah, so usually when we think of cage-stage Calvinism, we think of people that are brand new to the Doctrines of Grace who maybe have never heard it before, and they get so excited. That's how I was.

I was very much like that. I actually came to the Doctrines of Grace working in a Christian bookstore in Chesapeake, Virginia, Norfolk, Virginia Beach. That's where I grew up. And one of my co-workers was a Calvinist.

And this is back in the 80s, long before kind of the resurgence of Reformed theology. So it was very unusual. But when no other customers were in the store, he would take me to the Bible section, say, what do you think about this in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 about predestination and God's sovereignty?

And like the good, weak evangelical I was, I just stuck my fingers in my ears and yelled John 3 .16 and ran the other way. But slowly the Word did the work. And, I mean, I had never seen that. I didn't even know this was in the Bible.

How did this get here? Because I sort of had the typical Baptist experience where you just kind of know the stories from Sunday school, but really you've never read through the letters or put it together theologically.

So what took me months or however long to come to clarity, I expected everybody around me ought to know these things and understand it in just a week or two, right? So I thought that the Bible was like a club that I could use to just knock people over the head with and get them to understand as well.

So as you say, though, the more you learn the glory of these truths and see God's sovereignty and realize that this isn't about me at all and what took me so long, God is going to be patient with others as well and bring them along.

Over the years, he helped me to become more gracious and kind in the way that I dealt with others. So that's a little different than what you were saying. You were saying, you know, later on, though, we still see these truths we love misrepresented and people reacting instead of responding.

And how do we respond in graciousness then as well? Well, I mean, I think the doctrines themselves ought to help us and as we kind of reflect upon the patience of the Lord with us and the grace of the Lord with us, I think how many things are we still learning that the Lord has been so kind to bring us along and to get us where we need to go?

That's the way he wants us to treat others as well. So we treat others out of the grace that we've received. So I think back to reading some of Jerry Bridge's books where he talked about preaching the gospel to ourselves every day, reminding ourselves that this is all the grace of God.

We are what we are by the grace of God. That's going to help me as I interact with others to be gracious to them as well. Praise God. We also know, let me just say one more thing that came to mind. We also know it is not our intensity that is going to win the day with others.

It's the work of the Lord helping them to see and appreciate it. That's going to help them to see the truths that we love as well. So in other words, my intensity or anger is not going to be a winsome presentation of these things.

What I need to do is sort of like what these guys at the Christian bookstore did to me. Just give the truth in a kind way, clear way, answer questions, and let the word do the work. Let the Lord do the work through the word of helping people see that the universe is not circling around them, but we are all.

Around God. He's the center of everything. Well, I ask of you to now conclude our interview perhaps with some counsel for Christians as we face the remainder of 2020 and we see a nation very hostile towards those of opposing views.

We have a nation that is very hostile towards the Christian faith, even those that many in the political arena who claim some form of allegiance to Jesus Christ, whether in their Roman Catholic religion or other religions that they may be a part of, they still in essence hate the Jesus Christ of scripture and everything that he stands for in his inerrant word.

Some counsel there, how can we as ambassadors of Christ who are supposed to be a light to the world face this situation in our country with dignity, with humility, with poise, and with grace?

Yes. Well, I think a couple of thoughts come to mind. One, in the book of Revelation while that there are many difficulties in interpretation, the great thing we all agree on is that Jesus wins. We're on the winning team.

So it doesn't matter how bad the game looks in the third quarter. If we know that we are going to win, we can't lose. That's very encouraging. The things that make people panic and freak out in life and in politics never make God panic.