Jehovah's Witness Internet Apologists and the Ego Eimi Statements

Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast the Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence your host is dr.

James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed to Baptist Church if you'd like to talk with dr.

white you can call now by dialing 5080 960 that's five zero eight zero nine sixty and now with today's topic here's

James white the internet has turned so many people into self -published authors you go onto the internet today and you can find pretty much anything written by almost anybody and you can throw it out there with the equal opportunity of people seeing what you've written along with what everybody else has written and if I spent all my time simply looking up let alone responding to all of the articles and websites that are out there that attempt to respond to books that I've written things

I've said here on this radio program or in debates I would do nothing else the rest of my life but simply get up each morning start early and go to bed late and I'd still never get caught up the sad part of that is that many people think that as a result of that if you don't respond to everything that everybody says that means you can't that isn't the case in fact

I've I've learned that really you don't have to spend your life responding to everybody you just keep being consistent you keep just keep preaching the word and you let the truth speak for itself that is the best way to handle situations like that but a number of months ago now

I believe I mentioned the fact that there is an unusual thing going on and that is we now have apologists for the watchtower

Bible and track society who dwell in cyberspace they dwell in the

Internet on webpages email groups news groups internet relay chat channels

America online you name it and that's where they are not just Jehovah's Witnesses there are

Mormon apologists like that I can't help but chuckle about one fairly new convert to the

Mormon Church who sent me a email about the second email he sent me had a picture that he had downloaded from the

Phoenix Reformed website www .prbc .org he had taken the picture of our church and put it into a graphics program and drew the universal negation symbol over it and then he emailed it to me from AOL something about the

Reformed Baptist cult so there's all sorts of interesting folks out there so that you've got your Mormon apologists and obviously enough

Roman Catholic apologists to start a whole new inquisition they're all out there and they're all very very busily putting together their webpages and so on and so forth but it's interesting to me that the

Jehovah's Witness apologists are out there and the reason for that is as I mentioned a couple of months ago the watchtower

Bible and track society historically has discouraged all of its people with the possible exception of a few of the inner circle that live and work at Bethel headquarters and are involved in writing for the watchtower and awake magazines and so on so forth but has always encouraged all of its people to avoid interaction with what they call opposing literature they might refer to it as apostate literature which would technically be something written by someone who is a former

Jehovah's Witness but likewise to avoid that literature that is written by representatives of apostate

Christendom Babylon etc etc well it's hard to be an apologist if you don't know what the people you are debating and trying to defend your position against are saying so obviously to be a watchtower apologist is to in essence have to by nature go against the historical position of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and expose yourself to this information and that's exactly what is going on and I mentioned to you that we have been watching fairly closely what is going to happen in regards to these watchtower apologists a couple of years ago there was a statement in the watchtower about avoiding unnecessary exposure through the

Internet to various sundry viewpoints and arguments and that kind of thing it's not that the governing body doesn't know the

Internet is there but it's quite possible they've come to the conclusion there's nothing they can do about it that before long everybody's going to be hooked up and everybody's going to be using this as a major means of communication and commerce and if that is in fact the case then how do they handle exposure to the facts of their own history and the facts of their own as I would put it false teachings well these new watchtower apologists as I said are out there and they do read our books for example my book the forgotten

Trinity has already been quote -unquote reviewed or responded to by various and sundry of these cyber apologists and they read our websites and they are aware of problems in the text of the

New World Translation and are very busy in attempting to come up with ways of defending the watchtower society against the criticisms of those outside well why do

I bring this up again well we are currently in the process of inviting certain individuals to engage in a web -based dialogue and debate

I just this morning sent out email invitations and I'm considering the possibility of another person to add to the list but I sent out some email invitations just this morning to individuals to engage in a web -based debate or dialogue and this is in essence what we are desiring to do and I'm going to let you all in on it and maybe you all can be in on it at the very beginning and follow it all the way through to the end both those of you who listen to our live broadcast here on KP XQ 1360 a .m.

we gotta get that number down right now 1360 a .m. and we also need to recognize that there are others listening by the

Internet and all over the world in fact a very jolly old England as we know in places like that so everyone can sort of be involved in this right from the start what our plan is is to present four texts of scripture the ones

I have suggested as soon as you hear them will you'll figure out what this is all about John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 and Romans chapter 8 verses 28 through 31

Romans chapter 9 verses 10 through 24 and Ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 through 11 now if you're familiar with those passages you know that those are the classical passages in the

New Testament that teach the sovereignty of God and predestination election well I thought it would be extremely useful and extremely enlightening to have a web -based debate where I and one of Jehovah's Witnesses and possibly a member of the

LDS Church and an Armenian evangelical would all present our exegesis our interpretation our presentation of the meaning of each of those passages in a certain space we'd only have a certain amount of time or not time but space number of words to give our exegesis of each particular passage of scripture then in the second part after each of the participants had posted sent in their particular presentations in the second part we would then critique the other three so for example on my part

I would then critique the exegesis of the Jehovah's Witness or the exegesis of the

Mormon or the Armenian evangelical and they would do the same thing with all other all the other individuals and then we would finish the debate with a defense of our exegesis against the criticisms that have been levied against our position by the other three participants now obviously the the overriding desire that I have in attempting to arrange something like this on the web and discussing it with you today is to bring up the issue of how we do the exegesis of the text how do we interpret scripture if you listen to the

Bible Answer Man broadcast you hear all the time the art and science of biblical interpretation I can't even say it quite as fast but it is exegesis it is the leading out of the meaning of the text from the text which is the opposite of exegesis which is where you read into the text a meaning that you want it to say and then you just insert that in there and make the words mean whatever you want to make the words mean exegesis is allowing the text to speak for itself exegesis is making the text say what you needed to say well in two of the three groups that I'm talking about having this discussion with and initially this came up during a chat in one of our well in our worldwide chat channel where I was invited by someone to to debate in Arminian on these particular passages and and I said well that's why we try it this way and then the thought crossed my mind hey we have for quite some time wanted to do a written debate with a

Jehovah's Witness on the doctrine of salvation why not invite for example a

Gregory Stafford who is an author and who has written the book Jehovah's Witnesses defended why don't we invite him to engage in this and to provide exegesis and and I've contacted some

LDS people as well to see if someone might be willing to do that and the whole point is this gives everyone an opportunity to see who is consistent in regards to their exegesis hopefully if it works out as I would like to see it work out what will happen is the individual who accesses these web pages will be able to see exactly the impact of having an overriding authority outside of Scripture upon your interpretation of Scripture with the

Jehovah's Witness and with the Mormon there are external authorities that make exegesis based upon the absolute and highest authority the text utterly impossible it is simply impossible if you're one of Jehovah's Witnesses or if you're a member of the

LDS Church to allow the Bible to speak for itself why because there is a higher ultimate authority for an example for the

Jehovah's Witness it's the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and the interpretive interpretive body of of doctrine that they have passed down over the years with the

Mormon of course it is the Prophet and the Apostles in the Book of Mormon the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price and what those teach become functionally superior to what is taught in Scripture and so by bringing everyone together and having everyone provide this exegesis

I'm hoping that we will be able to get an insight into my assertion the assertion that I made throughout the nine or ten weeks

I've forgotten how many weeks now it was that we addressed dr. Norman Geisler's chosen but free but during the period of that discussion of that book my assertion that the reason that I am a

Reformed theologian that I am an individual who comes from the Reformed perspective is because of the consistency of the biblical text that the

Bible itself because it is the Anustos because it is God -breathed is consistent with itself and if you apply the same rules all the time not just some of the time but all the time then the teaching and the presentation of those scriptures is very very clear now that's someone in the future in regards to letting you know we will let you know exactly what's going on with that I'll let you know here on the program and and if I'm not on we'll have rich peers tell you hopefully maybe even by next week

I'll have something arranged in regards to when you might be able to see the first presentations being posted and how you can access them and things like that we'll let you know how that's going but today

I'd like to give you an example that's related to that and if you have the opportunity of taking your

Bibles and if not if you're driving around maybe scribbling a few notes just don't run into that guy in front of you it's

Saturday and a lot of folks on there on the road that probably shouldn't be on the road right now actually they don't go out any time the rest of the week so be careful while you're driving but maybe you can scribble a few notes down and turn with me to the

Gospel of John and here I would like to address specifically the presentation that the

Gospel of John gives to us of some of the names of specifically in this case the use of the phrase ago

I me the Greek phrase ago I me means I am and it can be used in an absolute sense where you're just simply saying

I am or it can be used in a sense where the predicate is assumed from the context

I am he I am Jesus of Nazareth I am the one whom you are seeking whatever it might be in the

Gospel of John this phrase occurs over and over again in very specific and very important contexts and the reason

I'd like to present this to you is first of all so that you can be blessed by what is found right in the text of Scripture itself it is a beautiful truth that you may have heard maybe mentioned briefly when someone was preaching on John chapter 8 verse 58 when

Jesus says before Abraham was I am that's ago I me and you may have heard someone mention that this is a reference to the deity of Christ is very obvious the

Jews took it that way because in John 8 59 they picked up stones to stone him but you you may have just heard a couple of these things in passing and recognize that well there's something going on here but there's much more to it and there's a lot that we can look at in the

Gospel of John as we will hear in a moment looking at all the passages that bring out this particular presentation but specifically starting next week after I get an opportunity to explain these things this week actually won't be next week to be a week after that I'm going to respond on the air to an attempted rebuttal an attempted rebuttal provided by one of the

Jehovah's Witness cyber apologists by the name of Rick Stamp now

Mr. Stamp and another fellow by the name of Martin smart our colleagues of Mr.

Stafford and they like to for example come into our chat room and log the chats they have and then put the log of the chats up on their own web pages filled with interesting side comments and so on so forth which you know

I guess if that's something you want to spend your time doing that's okay but they have a website and when

I get around to responding to the response I'll I'll give you the web page as long as it's the same one that I still have here but they make an attempt to find a way around the presentation that I have made both in our website and in my book the

Forgotten Trinity in regards to the evidence for the deity of Christ that can be gleaned from John's use of this phrase ago

I mean I am and so if you'll look in your scriptures I like to start not with John 858 which is where most people start but I like to start with what takes place in the garden the night of Jesus's betrayal there in the garden after the prayers recorded for us by the synoptic

Gospels we have an incident that takes place that only John records for us in its fullness that immediately should be the first thing we note as we're making notes here only

John tells us about this why is that important well I would assert to you that only

John reveals to us this use in the part of the Lord Jesus of this phrase ago

I mean about himself and so John's recording this for us and John is also the one who is record for us all the other references that Jesus uses of ago

I mean places like John 858 and 824 and things like that so John records for us what happens and you may be familiar with the passage you may have memorized it but beginning at the first verse of John chapter 18 when

Jesus had spoken these words he went forth with his disciples over the ravine of the Kidron where there was a garden in which he entered with his disciples now

Judas also who was betraying him knew the place for Jesus had often met there with his disciples

Judas then having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the

Pharisees came there with lanterns and torches and weapons so Jesus knowing all things that were coming upon him went forth and said to them whom do you seek they answered him

Jesus the Nazarene he said to them I am he that is the

Greek phrase ago I mean and Judas also who was betraying him was standing with them so when he said to them

I am he ago I me they drew back and fell to the ground therefore he again asked them whom do you seek and they said

Jesus the Nazarene Jesus answered I told you that I am he ago I me so if you seek me let these go their way to fulfill the word which he spoke of those whom you have given me

I lost not one and the narrative goes on from there here in the garden after having already laid a foundation as we will see we have

I think one of the clearest references to the divine nature the divine name that is communicated to us by ago

I mean when Jesus comes forth and answers the question asks the question whom do you seek and he said they say

Jesus the Nazarene he says them ago I mean out John then interrupts the narrative to make sure that we recognize that Judas who was betraying him was standing with them and then he he repeats in verse 6 the phrase ago

I mean so when he said to them I am he they drew back and fell to the ground he even repeats the phrase to make sure that we haven't lost the context that when he said ago

I me here these officers these Roman soldiers if and there's some debate as to whether these were

Roman soldiers or whether the new American standards going a little bit too far to put in the word Roman cohort but most feel that there were

Roman soldiers involved in all of this here you have the very officers and shall we call them policemen these are the tough guys these aren't the the weak at heart these aren't the individuals who would be frightened walking across the darkened valley these are the big guys and when

Jesus says ago I me they draw back and fall to the ground now let me ask you a question why well historically

Christians have understood that when Jesus made this self -identification when he uses these words of himself that this was a supernatural event that it was the glory of his person and it was the power of the name that caused these men to fall back upon the ground now how did you hope his witnesses respond to this well they say what happened here is because this man is so morally pure and because he is so brave that here these

Roman soldiers are so shocked that he would simply say I am the one you're seeking that they draw back and fall to the ground now

I guess that would mean that it would probably be a fairly common thing for police officers when they're serving summons and serving various and sundry things here in our own day and age when they they go to someone's door and they say we are seeking such -and -such a person if that person will just stand there and say

I am he that you should see police officers falling on the ground fairly regularly

I personally have not ever seen that but that would be the logical outcome obviously something is going on in John chapter 18 that is related to this phrase ago

I mean and we can see where this is coming from when we look at the previous passages in the

Gospel of John where this term was used the one that is the most famous of course as I've already mentioned to you is

John chapter 8 verse 58 here at the end of an incredible chapter a chapter that starts off with people but quote -unquote believing in Jesus and by the end of that chapter they are getting ready to stone him because he dared he dared to speak to them about the fact that they remain under bondage unless they are in him that he and he alone can give them freedom there was one thing for them to call themselves disciples when there wasn't anything really to being a disciple but when

Jesus started emphasizing who he really was and who they really were they turn from being disciples to being ones who are ready at the end of the chapter to pick up stones to stone him but I won't start preaching on that particular issue right now during the course of this chapter

Jesus when he gets to the end is focusing upon himself upon who he is and the

Jews begin pressing him for a fuller identification of who he is and he talks about how

Abraham had seen his day and had rejoiced and the Jews are like what are you talking about you're a nutcase you're not even 50 years old and and and what's what are you talking about Abraham for and it is in that context that Jesus says to them truly truly

I say to you before Abraham was born I am before Abraham was born a go

I mean now you may have heard about this passage because the fact that the

New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses say it says I have been I have been

I have been before Abraham was well that's so as to avoid the fact that when you hear

Jesus simply saying I am in this passage it's obviously being taken in an absolute sense he's not saying before Abraham was born

I am Jesus doesn't make any sense he's saying I am before Abraham was born in fact you can go back to the 90th

Psalm and find the exact same kind of contrast between something that's created and the eternal

God there in the Greek Septuagint so they translate I have been I guess in the hopes that people will not leap to the conclusion that Jesus is here using the same title that God himself used in Exodus 314 when at the burning bush

Moses is speaking to Jehovah God and Jehovah identifies himself as I am that I I am that I am a go

I me ha own I am the being in the Greek Septuagint I am that I am

I will be what I will be is another way of translating that be that as it may they don't want people to make that leap and in fact when you look at most study

Bibles and maybe you have a study Bible there maybe you can look at it most study Bibles will have a direct reference right back to Exodus 314 well

I do believe that Jesus is identifying himself here as a true deity there's no question about that the

Jews understood it that way in verse 59 they picked up stones to stone him but the connection between a go

I me I am and Exodus 314 requires a little more work than just simply going oh

John 858 please cross reference exodus 314 and if you're talking with Jehovah's Witnesses I would suggest that you might not want to immediately make that connection there is the connection is there there's just one step you need to make before you get there and given that Jehovah's Witnesses frequently spend large amounts of time in preparing to witness to you they may well know some ways of objecting to your position that you haven't heard of yet so I would be very careful that when you make assertions to anyone doesn't matter what religious group they are that we'd be very careful to be accurate in what it is that we're saying

Jesus said is in John 858 before Abraham was born

I am he also in another passage in John 1319 said these words from now on I'm telling you before it comes to pass so that when it does occur you may believe that a go

I me this particular passage means a lot to me because I remember very clearly the night that I realized what was going on in this passage

I was it was back in the early days of computers it was back in the 80s and it was late at night one night the wife had already gone to bed and I was writing a letter to an individual who was talking about becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I had that super high -powered compact portable 256

K of RAM about a 8 inch green screen that I think has has permanently damaged my sight still and to 360

K floppy drives the thing was a lightning bolt it was fast but back then that was you know that was just the way things were 4 .77

megahertz actually I didn't I thought that thing had turbo up to 8 megahertz no I didn't it was just 4 .77

megahertz indeed it was a fast unit anyways I was writing a letter and I remember looking at this passage in John 1319 in the

Greek and I looked at it and I looked at and I said I've seen this someplace before but I couldn't figure out where and then

I dragged out the Greek Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament and there in Isaiah 43 10 the very passage that Jehovah's Witnesses used to drive their name

I find the exact same phraseology used by Jehovah of himself in predicting future events that Jesus uses of himself in predicting future events in John chapter 13 verse 19

I'll never forget that night was an incredible experience to see that connection and to realize especially given the

Lord Jesus's firm knowledge of the book of Isaiah there's no way that this could have be this could be a mistake on his part he knows that he was applying the very language used of Jehovah to himself here and speaking to his disciples in John 13 well we need to take a break and when we come back

I will be inviting your phone calls this afternoon at 602 -274 -1360 you need to mark that down don't call the other number

I don't know who has it now but they don't want to have it for a while I'm sure 602 -274 -1360 is the number if you'd like to get involved in the conversation we'll be right back and welcome back to the dividing line my name is

James White it's about 27 minutes before the hour and we are discussing the issue of John chapter 8 and Jesus's use of the phrase a go

I me I was mentioning that I remember the evening very clearly when I saw the connection between John 13 19 and Isaiah chapter 43 verse 10 and in fact that is the connection that needs to be made that makes the the bridge firm shall we say between Jesus's use in John 8 58

John 13 19 John 18 5 -6 and one of the passage will look at here in a moment and the divine name in the

Old Testament the closest and most logical connection between John's usage of a go

I me and the Old Testament is to be found in the septuagint rendering of a particular Hebrew phrase the

Hebrew phrases on a who and these are this phrase is normally found in the writings of Isaiah the subject and translate this translates this phrase on a who as a go

I me in Isaiah 41 for 43 10 which as I said is the passage used by Jehovah's Witnesses to drive their name and Isaiah 46 for in each of these instances the phrase on a who appears at the end of the clause and is so rendered or punctuated in the septuagint just as it is in the seven examples in John the phrase ago

I me appears as the translation of a few other phrases in Isaiah as well and they are significant to this discussion it translates the

Hebrew Anokhi Anokhi who as a go I me in 43 25 and 51 12 once 52 6 it translates another phrase as a go

I me I'll toss and once in 45 18 it is for I am

Yahweh this last passage is very provocative and that it is in the context of creation and act described to Jesus by John in John chapter 1 verse 3 and other

New Testament writers as well Colossians 1 16 through 17 Hebrews chapter 1 verses 2 through 3 so there is a direct connection to the use of this phrase in the very

Bible that the readers of John would be reading we need to think about that you see

John's writing to people who wouldn't be sitting there with Hebrew scrolls in their hands the

Old Testament scriptures they would be reading would be the Greek septuagint and so they're sitting there reading through Isaiah and over and over again they see this phrase ago

I me ago I me ago I me and it's used as a name for Jehovah God and so all of a sudden you come to John's gospel a gospel it starts off with talking about the deity of Christ how he's eternally been

God in John chapter 1 verse 1 and it's going to close the confession that Jesus Christ is my

Lord and my God in John chapter 20 and it has all these references all through to these divine prerogatives and activities of the

Lord Jesus Christ and and it would make an absolute mishmash of the gospel of John to try to turn

Jesus into Michael the Archangel and fit the words that he speaks in the gospel of John into the mouth of an angel which is what

Jehovah's Witnesses have to do so through all of this in the gospel of John all these references the deity of Christ all of a sudden you have this use of this phrase in very important and specific context that anyone reading the

Greek Old Testament would go have seen that someplace before I've seen these contexts before I've seen this usage before and it was always about Jehovah God obviously there is something that is going on there now why is this important well keep this in mind one of the first times that Jesus uses this phrase of himself is in John 8 24 therefore

I said to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that a go

I me you will die in your sins well think about that here

Jesus is standing talking to Jews that are no farther away from him than a few feet and obviously he's not saying well unless you believe that I exist as a human being because they believe that he's not saying well unless you believe that I'm a prophet because they wouldn't have minded that in fact he probably wouldn't have they probably wouldn't have had a problem if you just come out and said

I'm the Messiah and then fulfilled their ideas what the Messiah was to be but Jesus says unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins a non -divine

Jesus cannot save you a Jesus that is less than the

Jesus presented to us in Scripture cannot save you and remember the writer of the

Gospel of John communicated to us in John chapter 12 verses 39 through 41 his clear belief that passages from the

Old Testament specifically about Jehovah about Yahweh are fulfilled in Jesus Christ in John chapter 12 verses 39 through 41 we're told that what

I the one who Isaiah saw in Isaiah chapter 6 who was Jehovah sitting upon his throne that's

Jesus that's what John tells us very very clearly John identifies the deity of Christ as being central to what it means to believe in him to believe in a

Jesus who is a mere creature is not to have salvation 602 274 1360 602 274 1360 is the phone number we have some callers online let's talk with Randy and Apache Junction hi

Randy hi how you doing James doing pretty good my question is what Messianic passages in the

Old Testament refer to Jesus as the covenant name of I am Jehovah well specifically

I just went through the passages that use the name ago I me and I'm not sure if you picked up on on any of those

I could repeat some of them really quickly for it I'm like no I did but I mean

I know that but I mean that is actually talking about Christ in the

Old Testament that's Messianic well and using the name Jehovah yes well when you ask a question like that normally the

Messiah you wouldn't expect that in a Messianic passage talking about him in his

Messianic office that you would refer to him as Jehovah there for example in Isaiah 53 where the suffering servant is presented there

Jehovah lays the sins of his people upon the Messiah so there the name

Jehovah is used of the father rather than of the son the places that you see this the applications that are made are more in the passages refer to Jesus as creator or as Lord and the one

I just mentioned in Isaiah chapter 6 the one who is seen upon the throne lofty and lifted up is

Jesus according to John and John 1239 through 41 the writer to the

Hebrews says in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 that Jehovah God described in Psalm 102 25 through 27 is in reference to the

Sun in regards to his creating all things and to the fact that he does not grow old and that while everything else will pass away he does not change so in regards to Christ as creator and Christ as as one worthy of the worship of men there you have two of the clearest passages

I can think of and there's all sorts of others but that identify him in that way but when the Messiah is referred to the

Messiah is referred to as the one sent forth from Jehovah God and so I don't know that there is

I don't know exactly how to respond your question regards to a messianic passage because that normally differentiates between the father and the son and it is

Jehovah who's sending the Messiah forth now there is I'm not sure if you have the

Forgotten Trinity but there is an entire listing in the

Forgotten Trinity in the back I'm right here it's on pages 214 to 215 where you have

Old Testament passages that speak of Yahweh that are applied to Jesus in the new but as I'm looking down the list right here most of them are in the context of creation and there are some though that are in the sense of salvation for example in Matthew 121

Jesus will save his people from their sins but in Psalm 130 verse 8 Isaiah 35 forward is

God who will save his people and so forth those being in the context of Jehovah so possibly there would be something along those lines would be able to help you as well okay it doesn't make much sense though if to not say that Christ isn't

Jehovah if if he is the creator of all things I mean because I know that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God created him first right but yet it says that all things seen and unseen were created by him well you know how to get you know how to get around that right they mistranslate that passage they insert the word other so that it doesn't say that he created all things says he created all other things see what you can do when you can just edit the text of scripture you can get around anything but interestingly enough they didn't do that at John 1 3 where it says that all things made by him but that's because they then attempt to say well what he's referring to there is life not all things though I think that's a misinterpretation of the text as well but one thing you learn in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses there's always a way around something if you don't mind using different standards to get around different points

I think they've told me before that they they use they they translate it in Aramaic and that's how they

Aramaic you mean yeah I mean no the the Watchtower Society as claims anyways to have translated the

New Testament from the Westcott and Hort Greek text of 1881 and they use a standard

Hebrew text as well so no they really don't lean on any Aramaic defenses there are others who do things like that but the official position anyways the society is they don't do that all right all right thank you very much okay thanks a lot

Randy thanks for calling 602 -274 -1360 602 -274 -1360 yes those are new numbers write them down and tattoo them upon your brain so that you can participate with us here on the dividing line 602 -274 -1360 we're gonna take a break and be right back and welcome back to the dividing line we're taking your phone calls at 602 274 1360 on the deity of Christ Jesus's identification of himself with the phrase ago

I me I am and let's go to Jennifer in Tempe hello Jennifer hi are you referring to Jesus as Yahweh mm -hmm yes certainly are

Jesus the name Yahweh is the name of God in the Old Testament it is used of God as his personal identification and the

New Testament writers refer to passages in the Old Testament that were about Yahweh and they refer them to the father and they refer them to the son and the spirit of the

Old Testament the spirit of Yahweh in the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit of God in the New Testament so the one name

Yahweh is used of father son and Holy Spirit most definitely most definitely that's one of the evidences of the deity of Christ is the fact that this name is used of him in a specific sense not just in a generic sense but in a specific sense referring to the unique characteristics of Yahweh God in the

Old Testament for example the one I mentioned was the quotation of Psalm 102 verses 25 to 27 which refers to Jehovah God and how he created all things and that he did so and he does not change everything else passes away but he does not well there's only one being that that can be described of and that's

Jehovah God well the writer of the Hebrews quotes that very same passage in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 but he quotes it of Jesus so who did the writer of the

Hebrews think Jesus was well he identifies him as Yahweh most definitely okay okay thank you

Jennifer and let's go to Steve in Phoenix hello Steve hello James how are you doing

I'm doing pretty well I am I've got some nice ladies from the

Jehovah's Witnesses visiting me now on about a weekly basis they dropped off the should you believe in the

Trinity pamphlet to me last week when I wasn't here and you know they make some pretty compelling arguments

I I'm just reading through the Bible for the first time I'm not through the Gospels yet so I don't really feel prepared to have these discussions because one thing

I do know about Jehovah's Witnesses is they are well well -studied yes and they you know they're they're good at what they do but I'm just kind of curious on on some of these how you respond to a few of these because you know a couple these

I read through I said you know they've got a pretty good argument there and I don't really have anything to refute it with some of the things

I'm trying to find them in a pamphlet and I don't see them right here but the idea that Jesus being seated at the right hand of the

Father and then when people were you know saw Jesus after he ascended that he was separate from God separate from the

Father you see the vast majority of the Trinity pamphlet is aimed at a straw man and the reason it is so very powerful and has been so successful in confusing people is that very few

Christians understand the doctrine the Trinity well enough to recognize a straw man argument when they see it and that is the

Trinity booklet is based upon the assumption of Unitarianism and what the Trinity booklet proves is that Jesus is not the father well the doctrine the

Trinity specifically says Jesus is not the father so proving that point may make you look good but if you recognize the doctrine the

Trinity does not teach that Jesus is the father then you're not really proving a whole lot and I address this very fully in the

Forgotten Trinity I think you'd find it to be a useful work to work through because it very much addresses all the arguments that the

Trinity pamphlet puts forward but in essence when they refer for example to Jesus referring to the father of course the doctrine the

Trinity says there is one true God that exists in three persons the father the son and the Holy Spirit the father is not the son the son is not the spirit the spirit is not the father they are divine person to share that one being that is

God but the Watchtower Society automatically assumes never bothers to prove but assumes that God is one in both being and person and hence they have to turn

Jesus into a mere creature they have to have Jesus saying things like as Michael the

Archangel come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden I will give you rest ever heard an angel say that can you imagine what it is to be a

Jehovah's Witness and to believe that Matthew 28 19 and 20 says that we are to be baptized in the name singular of Jehovah God Michael the

Archangel and an impersonal active force that's what they're saying so really if you're aware of the fact that the doctrine the

Trinity says that the second person of the Trinity the son entered into human flesh and hence voluntarily not by force but voluntarily entered into human flesh to die as the sacrifice for God's people that when you understand that the vast majority of the arguments that are put forward

John 14 28 or many others that only prove that Jesus is not the father you see you recognize they're not arguments actually against the doctrine the

Trinity they would be arguments against one this Pentecostal ism they'd be arguments against the modalist who might want to try to turn

Jesus into the father turn Jesus into two persons or something like that but they are not arguments against the doctrine the

Trinity and I'd really highly recommend that that if you're studying with the witnesses of two things

I hope that the elders in your church are aware of that and can give you aid and assistance and secondly

I hope you'll pick up the forgotten Trinity and compare the consistency of the exegesis between the two and especially note the outrageously horrific claims about the early church fathers found in the

Trinity pamphlet my next question is how do you respond to that idea that this was not even this was not accepted or taught until the third or fourth century and they tie it to Constantine which you know some other things but there is a typically respond to that well biblically or historically historically that is completely and totally fraudulent and that section in that Trinity pamphlet has been refuted and shown to be so outrageously ridiculous that it's just unbelievable

I included in the forgotten Trinity for example you will not see cited in that pamphlet the early church father

Ignatius who wrote before almost any of the people they did site and yet Ignatius himself referred to Jesus Christ as his

God 14 times in the extant writings that we have from him but they never mentioned him they don't even pass and listen to this in his writing to his letters to the

Ephesians this is from around 107 okay we're talking right after the Apostles here there is one physician of flesh and of spirit generate and ingenerate

God and man true life and death both from Mary and from God first passable and then impassable

Jesus Christ our Lord in reference to Jesus Christ talk about a high Christology he says to polycarp await the one who is above every season the eternal the invisible the one who for our sake became visible the untouched the impassable who for our sake suffered who endured in every way for our sake they don't even bother to mention that in a few years later they did try to address

Ignatius and what they did is they skipped every single reference the deity of Christ and quoted only from the pseudo

Ignatius epistles that everyone recognizes Ignatius didn't write we're talking about a cult here folks that will use information in any way notice they never cite

Melito of Sardis who who is writing toward the end of that century that has an again this is in the book an entire section in his

Paschal Sermon on the deity of Christ and calls him God and so on so forth and even the writers they cite they don't cite the passages that identify

Jesus as Jehovah Justin Martyr for example identifying Jesus as Jehovah they don't cite those passages so there are entire destructions of that horrible little section but again when you only have a little section when you have a little pamphlet and they don't have to interact with folks they don't have to interact with someone such as myself or or apologist who've written a new subject they're just feeding their own people that type of information then they can do with the facts as they will and cite the stuff they like and not worry about the stuff they don't so make sure like I said don't don't go it alone make sure that you avail yourself of the the resources that are there you can get hold of our office if you need more information and we're on the website and and also pick up the book

I think it'd be really helpful to you I would like to I mean I I don't object to speaking these people I you know

I only wish that the people that believed as you know as we do I guess you'd call it were as you know as diligent as these folks are well they are the gospel that they know it's a shame that all that energy is spent and in what

I what I would say is this completely false but you're exactly right I agree with you a thousand percent they very often put us to shame but you must remember they do so as part of a works salvation system they're proving their worthiness to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and to watch the

Jehovah's organization and we should truly I think have a feeling of pity for those who have been so deceived and so taking captive that they are out of this very hour going door -to -door and so very few of us are prepared to really talk with them hey thanks for thanks calling in we're out of time

Steve and make sure to get a hold of us if you need some assistance from us that's goes for everybody we're out of time we hope you'll join us again next week here on the dividing line the dividing line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega Ministries you can contact us at 602 -973 -0318 or you can write us at P .O.

Box 37106 Phoenix Arizona 85069 we are easy to find on the world wide web at www .aomin

.org that's www .aomin .org you can also find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks on our website join us again next