Vines/McDowell Dialogue, Encouraging Podcast, Calls on Today’s Jumbo Edition of the Dividing Line

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00:36

And greetings welcome to the dividing line got a lot to get to today if we're gonna be able to open the phones at all so I need to Jump right into it.

00:45

And that's what most people want me to do Anyways, we get a few people complain about I'm less than the first few minutes because it's just it's just you talking about whatever

00:54

So we'll just skip past all of that human stuff Just get to the just you know,

01:02

I don't want much to think we're you know, human beings or something. We're just bots anyways, so Yeah, the uninteresting human interest stuff.

01:10

Yeah for some people We won't get into who has said that in the past. But anyway had the opportunity yesterday and I mentioned on Twitter or Facebook or both?

01:21

I don't remember but mentioned Finally having had the opportunity to actually watch mainly listen to but watch there wasn't a whole lot to watch

01:32

The exchange between Sean McDowell and Matthew Vines now, of course

01:39

Most of some of you may remember We did a

01:44

Five hour I think five hour response to Matthew Vines what about 2012?

01:50

Maybe it's been been quite some time When his initial video about our long hour and ten minute long video sort of went viral

01:57

We did a very full response to it Matthew Vines then founded the

02:04

Reformation Project which its its fundamental purpose is to change the theology of the Christian Church it is that that's that's

02:10

That's what they want to do. They want to They're a part their perspective is that just as the church has been wrong on Geocentrism which his argument wouldn't work with Bob's and Genesis folks.

02:24

But anyway, that would be an interesting debate and That's sure. I want to necessarily watch that one, but Just as the church has been wrong on scientific things or something in the past That the church is wrong on The issue of homosexuality.

02:41

Well the whole LGBT even you know when when homosexuals throw in Polyamory Which he doesn't he talks about He talks about monogamy

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Why I don't know because the only meaningful concept the only reason that you have two is the gender binary the created gender binary of male and female

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Which is under such? horrific attack In Western society today.

03:16

It's it's evil to believe that's a good thing in our society today, but The idea of bisexual

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Just by itself Cannot be fit into a meaningful monogamous

03:35

Covenantal concept Homosexuality can't either when you really understand what a covenant is and the necessary Aspects of what a biblical covenant would be and transgender is

03:51

In fact, I saw a new word today. What was that word? Oh, where was that?

04:00

It was I think I guess I heard it on. Oh, yeah, I heard it on the briefing

04:09

It was trans and Maseo Trans something it's hating of transgenders.

04:16

It was it was the Harvard Christian group that's on probation until they change their theology basically and Harvard founded to proclaim the glory of Jesus Christ now in you know doing everything it can to banish the name of Jesus Christ from its

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From its buildings which were built all by people who believed in Jesus Christ. But anyway The utter secularization and the totalitarian nature of secularization just the two go together cannot allow for freedom

04:49

Liberty expression of other opinions anything like that Secularism is totalitarianism in its in its total essence.

04:57

Anyway So vines presents this stuff and and It doesn't flow together in the sense that The arguments for homosexuality are different for transgenderism, which is different for bisexuality, which is you know, the whole nine yards let alone all the

05:17

Questioning and everything else that goes into those various terms. But anyway We had responded fully to his arguments at that time and He was aware of that because our video had been watched many times as well.

05:32

So he was certainly aware of it So when he mentioned he was gonna be writing a book He had actually said on Twitter that once the book came out he would be

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He would want to do a debate with me and once the book came out That was last thing he wanted to do and has yet to do so Though our challenge has been has been out there for quite some time

05:51

We would love to do two -man myself and Michael Brown versus Himself and maybe dr.

05:58

Brownson if you'd like to have him along. I did find it interesting that in vines's book he

06:06

Shifted the emphasis from the arguments that he had initially used In the talk that he had given in Kansas over to Brownson's material

06:17

But in this dialogue with McDowell It was a mixture of stuff

06:22

Some of his old stuff which we had refuted long ago comes back Which isn't really in which isn't really consistent with some of Brownson's stuff

06:30

There's just a lot of confusion and it does seem to me I haven't been spending much time over the past couple of years since his book came out

06:39

Focusing much on listening to Matthew vines, especially when he went now. I'm not gonna do that debate But It seems to me that the the range of argumentation that he'll draw from depends on what audience he's talking to and So he'll craft is and I don't mean that necessarily in the sense that obviously when

07:01

I'm teaching the young people I'm gonna use different vocabulary than what I'm teaching in a seminary It's at the actual arguments you use

07:08

I've said many many times This was the truth at the beginning of this century when

07:14

Jeff Neal and I wrote the same -sex controversy The large amount of literature available from the pro -homosexual side at that time, which was nothing compared to today even at that time was an incoherent self -contradictory mass of stuff

07:31

Most of the books would use Numerous arguments that contradicted other arguments in it as long as it was an argument for homosexuality or more reality and better better Better way to put it as long as there's argument against traditional

07:44

Christian teaching on sexuality Use it doesn't matter if you're contradicting yourself use it and that seems to still be the case with the pro -homosexual

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Side and why shouldn't it be? They have the media They have the social conversation, it's not because they won it's because the other side utilizes

08:10

Totalitarianism suppression of speech the Hawaiian Yards. That's that's just what the left is is all about.

08:16

So anyway, I Once you get into the Q &A part at the end of the dialogue, there were a couple places where I was

08:27

Not on board with some of the things that Sean McDowell said but especially his opening and then the the cross -examination

08:37

Spot -on. I mean really I was extremely impressed He Recognized in only 20 minutes

08:48

There was no way to cover What the other side calls the clobber passages stuff like that.

08:54

He Was presuppositional. I think it's Sean McDowell. He was presuppositional in the sense that He very wisely chose to go directly at Matthew Vine's primary initial argument in his book and then give a devastating

09:17

Jesus based response and Just do that he didn't he didn't go to Leviticus he didn't go to Genesis he didn't go to Romans 1.

09:30

He didn't go to first Corinthians 6 didn't go to first Timothy 1 he Very wisely

09:36

I thought given the context Laid out vines central argument and then blew it out of the water and Then in the

09:49

Q &A he dominated the Q &A section and he would not allow vines to drag him off subject and Openly said you're twisting the scriptures.

10:02

You're reading things in you're twisting the scriptures. That's not what it says he was very straightforward and I really appreciated that there are just a couple things during the

10:11

Q &A I would not have answered in the same way as he did but other than that it was

10:16

I was just a mending all the way through it and So I was

10:22

I noticed that Michael Brown had had had complimented Sean McDowell well

10:27

Michael tends to be complimentary toward a lot of folks and so now I know exactly why he was Complimentary to a lot of folks it it was a great presentation.

10:35

It was very focused It's a good addition to the materials that are that are

10:42

Available out there. I did want to play just a section and briefly respond to one of the elements of vines his presentation now now once again and If you go back and we have a lot of new people if you go back in the archives look up terms like vines homosexuality

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Gushy GU sh ee dr. David gushy Look up some of the really long series as we've done many many hours series as we have

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Really gone in -depth on this subject. We really really have we don't do it all the time

11:19

I don't know that anyone can survive Listening to something like this.

11:26

It's a it's a it's a difficult topic. It really really is but We have many times addressed the fact that in amongst those who

11:45

Try to present the idea that Homosexual lifestyle gay marriage transgenderism this this revisionist perspective is actually respectably

11:57

Christian will speak of covenantal monogamous

12:03

Loving relationships. That's how they just sort of just completely dismiss. Well Genesis 1819.

12:08

That's irrelevant because that's just gang rape and we're talking about covenantal loving monogamous relationships, there's no there's no parallel here same and Then they will admit and Matthew Vines admits in this dialogue, there's nothing in the

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Bible That says anything positive about gay marriages. There is nothing in the

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Bible that even hints at such an attitude. I Wish it had been pointed out because this is something

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I have pointed out many times before If Jesus is truly

12:42

God Then when Jesus uttered the words that he uttered in Matthew chapter 19

12:48

From Matthew Vines perspective. He would have to have known that there are people standing in front who were closeted but themselves naturally and God ordained homosexuals and So how could

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Jesus, you know, the idea is well, you know that the church hasn't

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Let's leave the okay. The church has done dumb things in the past. This is Jesus We're talking about you telling me that that Jesus said words

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That were hurtful to your people Weren't your people around back then if they're if it's this if this is a natural thing they were

13:28

So Jesus had the opportunity to set them free at that point didn't do it Hmm that didn't come up that didn't come up but this idea of this

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Covenantal monogamous relationship nothing is scripture about this It is a total violation of the concept of what a

13:49

Christian covenant or any type of covenant biblically Would be you cannot covenant with another man who is not an eights air connecto to you eights air connecto is a term in Genesis 126 a helpmate suitable of Of the same but opposite of one another there is a fundamental

14:13

Proper relationship that exists between male and female

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There is a complementarity That exists between male and female and it's a part of the created order

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It's a part of the created order. You can't get around it and it does not exist with a mirror image

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There is something wrong with the idea of trying to create in a mirror image

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Your complimentary person. It's not biblical. It's not a part of the Christian worldview. It will never be a part of Christian worldview

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You can try to force it in there, but it will always be foreign It'll always be foreign so you have that and then you have this form of argumentation

14:56

I'm just sort of starting almost probably in the middle of a sentence here, but let's just catch some of it and And we'll we'll go from there things and how we felt about things that's a pretty subjective grounding to Decide our opinions based on in our beliefs based on but I do think that experience plays a role sometimes in leading us back to the biblical text to look at it more closely and As Sean talked about Jesus says in the

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Sermon on the Mount He's talking about false prophets and false teachers and I think that the principle the offers is applicable to teachings as well that a

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Good tree will bear good fruit and a bad tree will bear bad fruit And I don't think it's as subjective as a person's, you know, just somebody

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Is having a hard go with something. I think we can look to biblical definitions of what is good fruit Yes, it is obedience, but I also think it's think now.

15:47

Let me explain something. Sean had short -circuited him here He had taken this argument and he had said

15:54

Matthew is wrong. He's twisting what Jesus said here when Jesus talks about good fruit.

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He's not talking about good feelings Because the argument that Vines uses is well look if Christian teaching causes people to commit suicide or to leave the church or to have hard feelings toward the church

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Then that's not good fruit. And therefore the church's position can't be true Now there are so many logical problems there that it's that it's astounding.

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I Mean there are many thieves Who over the centuries have been angry with the church because the church said stealing other people's property is wrong

16:37

Well, where is the wrong there? It's in the thief not in the church there are many people who have left the church because they committed adultery because they

16:49

Love having sex with lots of women not unnatural desires, but in a natural excessive desire and so they committed adultery they commit fornication and Then blame the church for quote -unquote rejecting them the reality is the front all of the promises in Scripture for people who are in Christ are for repentant individuals

17:19

Repentant individuals once you take the position that you can determine what aspects of God's revelation you're going to believe and What you're not going to believe based upon your own personal experience the whole concept of repentance goes out the window

17:36

You can't repent you can only make God repent or the church repent You Become the standard it becomes subjective.

17:45

And so Sean had already taken that out and So you hear him say there?

17:51

Well, yeah, it is it is obedience because Sean has said hey the point here is false prophets are going to be recognized in that they're going to be disobedient to God's law and They're gonna lead you into disobedience.

18:03

There is a standard here and the good fruit is this and the bad fruits that and that Destroys vines entire argument so You know when you get to go first, but the other guy has the argument you're going after it's almost unfair

18:24

I mean, you know, but he took advantage of it and When you when you take out the other guy's primary argument from the start then this is vines trying to sort of repair that and You'll you'll see how it goes.

18:39

It's like what we find in Galatians monogamous committed same -sex relationships

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And those were not the result that I was seeing of the rejection that people experienced at the hands of the church

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At the hands of the church the church that's being faithful to the revelation that has been given to That church are we frozen up there?

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Okay, I'm just looking up there and and Matthew's just oh That's a that's okay.

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Just we just we just got rich daydreaming Evidently, he just wandered off into the into the

19:25

NaNa land, you know, it's a Matthew is not in sync. Oh I'm not sure why

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Matthew's on sync. I'm just just I'm not either. Oh, you're not either. Okay, I got you anyway

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So what he wants to do is and again, this is a Common Exegetical error, this is

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I think this is why Matthew won't debate Against those of us who've known his positions and know

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Brownson's positions and do exegesis is because his exegesis is Indefensible and and that came up in the cross -examination with Sean Sean pushed him on and and Matthew folded up I mean, he could not provide any meaningful exegetical basis for what he was saying.

20:14

It was it was very very well done I'm not I don't know. I I Wonder if if Matthew expected

20:19

Sean to be quite as strong as he was, but that's I have no idea I don't know Sean McDowell never talked to him Don't know anything about him, but he did a great job on this anyway

20:31

He wants to just go well since it's fruit in Matthew 7 and it's fruit over in Galatians 5

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But Sean took him to Galatians 5 and said hey look at everything That that Paul says in Galatians and in Galatians 5 in particular and you're not gonna get the idea

20:47

That when he talks about goodness and meekness and self to I mean self -control from Paul's perspective

20:57

Homosexuality is out of that category I mean there is no way

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For you to honestly look in a camera and say yes, I think of Paul. We're sitting here today that he would say that our

21:12

Monogamous Covenantal faithful relationships are described by the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 because Paul's entire category is provided by God's law and So the idea that you can have a covenantally faithful Slanderer Doesn't fit let alone the fact that Paul specifically refers to to the arson a coy tie and again

21:41

You you the revisionists have lots and lots of excuses to try to get around the meaning of these words, but a

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When you can allow the New Testament or the Bible as a whole to speak consistently, there's just no way around these things

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There's no way around these things But this is how you hear it being being argued. And so the idea that is being presented is we can't

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Hold to a biblical perspective Because those

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Who are impacted by it? Will claim to be hurt by it And of course the only meaningful response that is to say if it is truly the biblical perspective if it is truly

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God's truth from Scripture then Those who are violating his standards are the ones who are being destroyed by their non -repentance to blame

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God's truth For hard feelings or you know when people say there's he quotes the number

22:55

These people are eight point four times more likely to commit suicide

23:02

Well, I've said before I would love for somebody to do a study What's the percentage of suicide amongst pedophiles who are identified and captured or at least identified

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And Immediately, you're not allowed to say that while you're comparing. No, I'm saying here is what is identified as an

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Unnatural disordered Desire amongst mankind.

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Here's two different versions of it. It's not the same desire but with different objects and If you apply the logic that we're hearing from this side the result is that the church should embrace our

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LGBTQ p Pedophile brothers and sisters, right? because if they're hurt by they're being rejected by the church and The only the only reason that they would have a higher suicide rate is the church's fault

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Not that there might be anything in this behavior or in these disordered desires that actually represents something fundamentally wrong in the person

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Fundamentally disordered in the person no other generation prior to ours

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Would have ever struggled to understand this It's it's only our day Every generation up to now and of course our generation now this younger generation just simply goes well

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That's because no one back then had any heart They they didn't they didn't have any compassion.

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That's baloney the the reality is that Compassion without morality ethics and a meaningful worldview

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Becomes sticky sentimentality that will destroy any culture It'll destroy it it's the end of any meaningful cultural advancement and experience

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But This type of an argument appeals to those who make decisions based upon emotion

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Rather than rational thought having a formed worldview This emotes but when it's examined and Anymore, I mean just look at our just look at our university campuses.

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You're not even allowed to examine The thought behind the arguments behind this kind of thing

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You're not even allowed to examine it And there's a reason for it that the left knows they cannot survive

25:55

They cannot survive if their arguments are actually examined So I would highly recommend that if you know

26:01

If you want to catch it's called what does the Bible say about a homeless homosexuality Sean McDowell and Matthew Vines in conversation?

26:08

It was while it was a conversation. It was much closer to a debate than most conversations end up being and I think you would find it to be very very useful.

26:20

And so I highly recommend it highly recommend it to you next thing

26:27

Need to talk to Those of you we know and and you know, if you're if you're recording this to try to find, you know

26:36

Me making a hand sign that you can identify as demonic or whatever else it might be

26:43

You know using it for whatever purposes we're not talking to you talking about talking to our brothers and sisters who tune in Because they're blessed and because they support what we're doing

26:55

Need to come to you again because we have a major trip coming up and It is a missions trip.

27:04

It is a trip. We will be doing debates We're going to we're certainly going to arrange a debate

27:12

In London with Peter D. Williams on Roman Catholicism. Once again, we're going to be down in South Africa I'm going to be doing my best to do as I've been requested to do and In fact, we're building the whole thing around In fact,

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I haven't heard back from him from yesterday. But anyway, we're building the whole thing around Going to Zambia and teaching for Votie Balcombe there at the

27:41

African Bible College and so then we're once we get that nailed down then we'll figure out on which side of it we can do stuff in Johannesburg Pachis room and then going and coming

27:58

Would really like to try to work this one out to where we One of those two is

28:03

London one of those two would be up in Scotland. I would love to see Nick Needham.

28:09

I haven't written to Nick yet. But hey Nick, can we work something out? I'd love to get to Inverness Glasgow I'd love to see

28:18

Jim Handyside again if he'd even see me It's been so long But try to arrange

28:25

I've always wanted to get a debate arranged up in the in the Glasgow area There's a lot of there's a very strong Islamic presence up there.

28:32

So I'd love to try to Arrange something up there, but obviously we're once again talking about nearly three weeks

28:43

While I'm down in the the Joburg area You know, it's it's wonderful we've been down there enough times now that It's almost not like traveling because when you have

29:01

Tremendous friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord You know part of part of the part of what gets people sick and stuff is the stress they're under And traveling can be incredibly stressful.

29:16

There's no choice about it But When I'm in South Africa most of the time

29:23

I'm with Rudolph and And Rudolph is is one of my Timothy's around the world you might say dear brother, you know, it's like being with family it is being with family and There is a family that I stay with in the

29:40

Johannesburg area and it's sort of like oh, hey James rooms ready You know dinners at such -and -so, you know guy laundry to do, you know

29:48

It's just sort of like you're just been away from home for a while and you're back again and you pet the bunny for a while they've got a little pet bunny and and You know,

29:58

I'm gonna go for a run now. And I I know all the all the paths around the neighborhood

30:04

I know I know where the things to jump over to not trip and fall while running in the dark Are I've done it so many times so That really helps tremendously it really really really does and London man,

30:18

I'll tell you It's It's just an incredible place. It's it's neat to be at and we've got good friends there

30:26

We've got you know The last time I was there Spoke at a church gonna try to you know, try to work with them again and and you know, we've got stuff going on So anyways

30:37

Yeah, it's a long time to be away and I've always said I sort of have a

30:42

About a two week, you know sort of like when you buy a carton of milk after about two weeks

30:47

You're not really sure you want to be drinking that anymore But I'm getting better at this so we can we can push it back a little bit longer so Anyway, it's expensive

31:04

You all have always been there to make it possible for us to to do this again

31:10

We're talking about a number of of possibilities as some really cool debates and dialogues and and teaching opportunities in South Africa Zambia and in the

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United Kingdom and We're looking at May. So we've only got about two months To come up with the funds to make this happen.

31:29

It is expensive Especially staying in London Even with some folks that have helped us out in the past finding the good good places to stay

31:40

It's still you know hotels in London our hotels in London and transportation and and and of course flight tickets are the other primary things, but So we don't do much in the way of fundraising.

31:55

We're not we're not big fundraisers along those lines, but we let people know and I think a lot of folks like to Help support something like this

32:08

Because when the debates come out the videos come out a lot of folks are like I helped make that happen I had

32:14

I had something to do with that and I I think that's that's pretty cool. So anyway The If you go to the website, there's a a link for the travel fund

32:28

Somewhere It's under the donation section there's a travel fund there and If you want to help us get

32:38

Pretty much halfway around the world because when you go that far south, I'm not sure how you know exactly how that It's only nine hours.

32:45

I think it's nine hours Depends the time of year obviously because here in Phoenix, we don't play with our clocks, but by May I think it's yeah

32:52

It's nine hours. I think to Joburg So that's not quite halfway around the world that direction, but it certainly is down there because May will be

33:02

Going into the winter Down down there, which it's best time to go No, no two ways about it so We'll let you know more about as we as we get stuff firmed up It's gonna take a lot of work to get this this trip put together

33:19

But we'll let you know more about it's a firmed up But we need we need your assistance in getting there. So I needed to let you let you know about about that Appreciate Someone sent me

33:33

Dr. Kruger's new book Christian at the crossroads, even though I I did

33:43

Humorously ribbed him about the fact that I didn't have it and he still didn't send it to me

33:50

Someone else did thank you very very much and I just happened I was doing something I think I was transferring a file or something

33:57

And so I had it in here and so I started looking Through it and I ran across this section

34:03

We've talked about this before but it's sort of neat to read it from somebody else and make a quick application And then we've got one of the things to cover one other thing to cover and then we'll look at opening phones

34:15

Looking at under the chapter called our alternative pathways in other words some of the earlier movements

34:23

Evianites so on so forth under the early Protonostics number two Basilides Basilides listen to this.

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This is page 126 for those of you that might want to be getting this again it's called a Christian at the crossroads Michael J Kruger if you

34:39

Watched or listened to The session that dr. Kruger and I did at g3 last month and we were talking primarily about canonization stuff, but He mentioned his new book on the second century church and and I'm not sure if it's technically out yet, but I I think it is anyway

35:01

You can order it and I would highly recommend it Basilides Irenaeus provides our earliest reference to Basilides a

35:09

Gnostic teacher from Alexandria who taught from the reign of Hadrian 117 138 into the reign of Antonius Pius 138 to 161

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While it is unlikely that he was the very first Gnostic as Eusebius suggest

35:21

He is one of the earliest Gnostic teachers We know about the later followers of Basilides claimed.

35:27

He received his teachings from Glaucus an interpreter of the Apostle Peter However, this claim is almost certainly an imitation of the earlier tradition that Mark was an interpreter of the

35:38

Apostle Peter Basilides offers his own complex version of the familiar

35:43

Gnostic Creation myth with myriads of emanations from the true God even suggesting there were 365 creator angels

35:53

But Basilides is perhaps best known for his Christological views while agreeing with his fellow

35:59

Gnostics that Jesus did not suffer physically Basilides offered his own twist on the crucifixion event

36:05

He taught at least according to Irenaeus that Jesus switched places with the person who carried his cross

36:13

Simon of Cyrene transforming himself to look like Simon and transforming

36:18

Simon to look like him thus the Romans crucified the wrong man while Jesus escaped laughing at them a

36:27

Very similar shape -shifting view of Jesus shows up in well the Nag Hammadi text the second treatise of the great

36:34

Seth now When you hear that and you know, we've done we've read a number of these

36:43

Gnostic works on the program and For some reason it still bothers me that people like when

36:50

I read weird Gnostic stuff, but Says something about our audience, but Yeah, I know

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I know but it's just the way that I I intone it I guess but And can't help but chuckling at a few points, but anyway

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We've we've looked at a number of these things and when you listen to that Somebody else took his place made to look like him

37:22

Huh, this is this is sometime in the second century about the middle of the second century and This is coming from a

37:31

Gnostic perspective. So it's coming from someone who for example Doesn't believe in a creator

37:38

God believes the creator God of the Old Testament is a demi -urge an evil deity these are individuals who are

37:50

They believe that that which is spiritual is good they're called dualists They believe that which is spiritual is good and that which is physical is evil

37:59

So in other words, they have a worldview utterly unlike any of the prophets Moses Abraham just total disconnect there.

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They they they don't view those individuals as really having any type of spiritual authority and Certainly those writings don't have any spiritual authority either and yet they come up with this substitution theory the crucifixion and the reason being obviously

38:27

The Jesus doesn't have a physical body to be crucified in the first place and So if somebody was crucified and the evidence of that There there wasn't any question of it

38:37

It was overwhelming So you had to come up with another explanation of it Jesus couldn't have been crucified and so somebody else was crucified in this place.

38:45

Where do we hear a similar story about? Oh, I don't know maybe 400 years later or so 350 400 years later.

38:56

Oh the Quran Yeah, and isn't it interesting that the

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Quran? Uncritically as far as I can tell utilizes all sorts of sources including

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Gnostic sources as if it's all a part of the in Jill The author of the

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Quran shows no Familiarity whatsoever with any

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Meaningful canonical knowledge as to what is and what is not the canon of the

39:32

New Testament? so What's interesting to note? Is that the author of the

39:37

Quran knows much more about? non -canonical mythological stories from centuries after Jesus than it ever shows evidence of knowing anything about Paul or Hebrews or anything else like that and Yet this is supposed to be the continuation of what

39:57

God Yahweh who then becomes known as Allah has revealed because it says the

40:05

Toronto in Jill were nuts all they were sent down and Modern Muslims like to say well, that's not the

40:12

New Testament you have well When the Quran addresses the Christians of their day and says go read your your in Jill There's only one in Jill that they have

40:21

And my Muslim friends have never come up with anything else. Oh, well, we've got the Abianites. No, you don't you know You know what they believed

40:27

That I mean, it's it's next to impossible to figure out what these people believed. There's so little evidence

40:34

So it is fascinating That these concepts end up being mirrored in in the

40:43

Quran and I think it says a lot and that says a lot I'd like to Arrange a debate

40:52

In London and I've got someone in mind and I'm going to contact Who's been rather voracious in his criticism of me.

41:01

So it's like okay, let's let's go toe -to -toe Did the

41:07

Quran utilize external a Historical erroneous sources in its representation of the past I Say it did so we'll see we'll see okay, one other thing before we go to the to our callers

41:29

I I've hesitated a little bit To even mention this for fear of seeming self -serving, but I was thinking about this morning

41:42

I was listening to a part of it again this morning on a little 5k I did and I decided given what has happened since this was

41:54

Put out it doesn't really matter whether I talk about it or not. It's not going to really change anything one way or the other

42:02

But When I went up to Salt Lake I mentioned as I was driving up I I listened to that Unhinged polemics report that that attacked me

42:18

And it was I think within a day or two of that That I Was directed to a

42:32

Podcast that had been posted by Todd and Aaron Harding X in a helo the

42:40

X in a helo podcast I Began listening to it while driving into Salt Lake to go to the

42:51

Taco time downtown That we used to go to way back in the 80s, which

42:57

DL Culliver identified as taco time bomb yeah, it fulfilled that for me this year too, so It may have been just because I ate at the one in Nephi and then the next day, you know too much of a good thing

43:13

You know So anyway, I did come home with nine bottles of taco time taco sauce

43:22

This trip so I won't run out beef, but I'm going back in July. So I'll actually be able to re resupply things in in July what but No, I decided not to okay.

43:35

All right didn't want it didn't want to ruin things. Okay, anyway so I was listening to it while I was eating and and And driving around Salt Lake and stuff and You know,

43:46

I mentioned on Twitter and Facebook briefly that I really really appreciated it. It was very encouraging it was really at the time

43:57

I didn't say too much about it because I Knew if I did that would result in all sorts of nastiness for everybody who was associated with it

44:08

I mean, that's just the way things are in the net these days with certain people Then I find out a couple days later that the nastiness was there anyways

44:17

And so I didn't really accomplish anything by just only saying, you know a few words of thanks but I really it really did mean a lot to me and Not only the fact that there were people who would write in there were a number of written

44:32

Testimonies and and it is sort of nice. This is the 35th anniversary of the of the founding of Alvin Omega ministries

44:37

We've been around for a little while I noticed that by the way today is Jeff Durbin's birthday.

44:43

So that means we were founded when he was five Because he's he's 40 the big 4 -0 today.

44:49

Happy birthday, Jeff but you were just a little one when we started doing this kind of stuff and So it was it was sort of cool for you know on our

45:04

I've said we ought to do something like we did for 30 where we had this email address that people could send something in that Where they wrote about?

45:11

You know how the ministry has helped them and stuff like that and we still haven't done anything. So anyway, we still got a little time

45:20

But what the Hardings did was they they invited people to write in and Or send in an audio thing, which one person did

45:30

And then they had a guest on and I really appreciated The fact that pastor

45:37

Tom Buck actually joined them because I knew That Tom was going through a pretty

45:45

Challenging time when he did this so for him to take the time to go on this program When he had a bunch of other stuff going on that that No one would have blamed him if he had begged off on this believe me if they knew the situation they would not have for a second blamed him for begging off, but he didn't and It was again a lot of people sort of think well if you do this for a living then you just must have gator skin and Now we're all human beings, you know and yeah

46:25

You do this for 35 years and the the list is long of people down through the past three and a half decades who've done their best to take us down and Yeah, you do

46:41

If I can't handle this better now that I could five years in then there's probably something wrong with me

46:47

But doesn't change the fact that it can wear on you And especially it's one thing when it's opposition from people outside the faith in these days

46:59

The real wearing part is that it's from opposition from people who claim to be within the faith.

47:05

That's That's that's the real real essence. And so I've always known that our supporters the people who appreciate

47:13

What we do and how we do it They don't tend to be the loudest Bell ringing screaming screeching type people they tend to be the quiet consistent type folks and so that means you're gonna hear the critics much more loudly than you're gonna hear the supporters and But I know that but that's still intellectually it doesn't

47:37

It's still not the same thing. So what I want to do is is

47:43

I'd like to play and I wish there was It seems weird to have the camera on me while we're listening to somebody else but You know, maybe you've got a beautiful Sight Ocean view or so,

47:59

I don't know or just the red thing. I don't I don't know but I'm gonna play a couple minutes

48:06

And I'm gonna play it a little bit fast one point two again just a couple minutes from The Comments that Tom Buck provided because I thought this was really encouraging when he talked about the impact

48:27

That the book that I wrote in 1996 The Roman Catholic controversy had in his ministry in a church there in in Florida so let's let's listen to that and then one other thing and then we'll

48:43

Before I start the second one, we'll open the phones and and go from there. So let's let's listen to Pastor Tom Buck from Lindale, Texas So when

48:51

I would interact with Roman Catholic, I would basically attack them on all the ways that I had been misinformed about what they believe or exaggeration of what they believe

49:04

For example that they just believe you're saved by work I began to really not be able to have much of an impact at all with The Roman Catholic that I was engaging with and my desire was to see them come to Christ, right?

49:17

But they weren't coming to Christ. They weren't in fact they weren't even wanting to have conversations with him because they said

49:22

I was misrepresenting them and They and I just rather than trying to listen to them.

49:29

I just continued to use the rhetoric and the Argumentation that I had believed it was the reality of what

49:39

Roman Catholics believe So I came across Dr. White book regarding from Catholicism and began to read and to understand what

49:48

Roman Catholics actually believe And one of the biggest impacts that dr. White made on my life as a pastor was to help me to understand that if I am going to engage

49:59

Others whether be Mormons or whoever and in this case Roman Catholic that I need to be rightly represented and that even in even in my

50:10

Interactions with them regarding things that they were incorrect on or heretical. Yeah, then

50:16

I needed to be fair -minded that there was plenty to deal with of what they truly believe wrongly then to misrepresent them and to say things about them that are

50:30

Unhelpful in your attempt to try to get them to come to Christ. You just immediately alienate them because you're

50:36

Attacking them and insulting them and not respecting them enough to represent what they truly believe now we expect them to do that about But we're paying them the same favor as if Because someone is a heretic if you will, of course

50:52

Not trying to say this specifically about every Roman Catholic but if someone is heretical in their doctrine that they don't deserve to be treated like a

51:00

Human being who has been created in the image of God. And so I read his book And I began to understand how to engage them rather than attacking

51:11

It was because of dr. White's ministry in that church in Florida We had it was around 60 % of our conversions after I we started begin

51:21

You know maybe that direction understand how to engage Roman Catholics over around 60 % of our conversions were

51:26

Roman Catholic And one of the great yeah, it was that's a high percentage But there were a lot of people in that area that were

51:34

Roman Catholic, I remember one guy in particular Jim's his first name his last name began with a

51:39

P. So I'm not gonna Say what his full name is online with without having asked his permission But he was a

51:45

I work a worker of my wife and he called us born -again. He would make that a boarding He would constantly make fun of my wife and one day my wife just said to him said

51:56

Jim My belief in God my faith how I live is very dear to me and the one thing

52:03

I don't appreciate making fun of it But she continued to love him Continued to interact with him.

52:09

He stopped doing that but his wife Got brain cancer.

52:15

We when that happened, you know who Jim reached out to I'm betting you or your wife.

52:21

I reached out to my wife. He didn't know me yet. Okay your wife Who did he want praying for his life

52:27

He wanted my wife Frank long story short. Jim started coming on Wednesday night Bible studies occurred He had never been exposed to the

52:34

Bible before just teaching the Bible He finally became a Christian. I mean, you know how to happen You know He approached me and I was teaching a passage where of Mary's other children and it recalls this head explode

52:43

Because he can't have other children long story short through the process of this. He became a believer

52:49

It was really funny because whenever any of his Roman Catholic family would come over he'd say wait a minute I want to show you

52:54

Mary had children. They've been lying to us He came to the

53:01

Lord his wife came to the Lord he initially died of brain cancer It was just a wonderful blessing who

53:07

I did his wife's funeral That's one story of Roman Catholic family another one was we had a lady who was a nun who would visit her sister who was a member of her and She would come and she hated it because that be at first when she'd hear me preach, but eventually

53:23

Through hearing the word preach and interacting with her and I address where we tell That's what would make her angry

53:30

When it was appropriate in the past and she became a believer and I and we baptized her she moved down became a believer

53:35

We baptized her a former nun in her church. Awesome. I was gonna say side note. I know some southern

53:41

There you go there was just the reality of that The book had that kind of an impact allowed for individuals to come to the

53:54

Lord and then the the reality that The impact of needing to be consistent accurate, etc, etc.

54:07

Very very important Then later on the program they read a number of of things and Then Kofi formerly of London formerly of Milwaukee.

54:26

I Hope Kofi visits Milwaukee. Just I would love to get a message from Kofi in Milwaukee at some point

54:34

That would be that would be really cool but He sent in a audio

54:44

Testimony something along those lines and I just wanted to thank you for that and and also play that real quickly.

54:51

Also again, this is a little quick Because most Londoners don't speak this quickly But here's here's what

54:58

Kofi had to say. Hey, it's Neil O 'Cost. Kofi Edwin from Medford, Oregon here so I hear that you're putting together a little show to encourage our

55:05

Beloved friend and brother. Dr. James R. White. And so I thought I would share something of a personal story that I don't know

55:11

Dr. White probably doesn't want this being out there. But hey the story involves me so I'll share it In 2013,

55:17

I tragically lost my brother in an accident He was 15 years old and you know, that was one of the most difficult periods

55:24

I've ever been through my entire life Um, I had experienced a loss of friends and people close to me but I'd never experienced grief in my immediate family before and so, you know, it was a tough road to walk on and I'll never forget that one of the first people who reached out to me when that happened was dr

55:38

White he reached out to me on Twitter and reminded me that as a believer I had never been more loved in that moment than I Was maybe tempted to forget in a moment like that He reminded me of the love of God shown to me on the cross of Jesus Christ and that that Love was being extended to me even in the moment of my most bitter grief

55:58

About a week or so later. I looked into the pro -sepulchrian chat channel and dr

56:03

White was in there at the same time Reached out to me in a private message I'm not gonna repeat what he said But he had some very comforting things to say

56:10

Took my address and very kindly out of his own time and money sent me a copy of his book on grieving

56:17

That book proved invaluable to me in helping me with my own grief I gave that book to my mother who I left that with when

56:23

I moved over here back in April It's hard for me on a personal level to hear people slander dr.

56:29

White and call them all manner of names when dr White basically did for me what very few people did at that time, which was simply remind me of the truth

56:37

Reach out to me as his brother in Christ and From a few thousand miles away at that point put an arm around me and let me know that it was gonna be okay

56:45

That's the dr. James why I know and I wanted to share that story as an encouragement to him.

56:50

Thank you so much doc I appreciate that and that's an encouragement to those of us who have followed his ministry I've been blessed by it that despite the continual negative comments of those on the internet who

57:00

Feel that they have the self -appointed role of the Holy Spirit and feel that they need to set us all straight on every possible issue In all honesty, there are some things which are much more important than proving yourself to be right in every sort of internet squabble

57:13

And I think dr. White has been an excellent model of that. So thanks so much doc really appreciate it

57:18

Well, we we appreciate all of that the effort that went into it everything that was said by everybody who wrote in or sent things in and again, like I said, we we know that those who

57:33

Support us are are by far the majority. They just don't yell and scream as loud

57:42

When that podcast came out, however The response to it from The the people who were rebuked by it

57:53

Was pretty amazing and unfortunately, we we mistakenly put it up during the call.

57:58

I just wanted to have it ready So Some of you in Twitter are going what in the world's that?

58:04

I'm sorry. I needed to give the background to it, which is my understanding is that this comes from That bastion of internet childishness and immaturity known as the pulpit bunker

58:22

But up at the top you have Tim Hurd who is the Bible thumping wingnut That Posted Rich's own

58:31

Tweet I would like to thank Todd and Aaron Harding for doing this program still wiping tears away and If you notice

58:41

Len Pettis who used to be of Bible thumping wingnut and I've heard is coming back, I don't know

58:48

Notice what he posts in response to what we've heard about people being saved

58:54

Edified Roman Catholics being saved, etc, etc. That's what Len Pettis thinks of of that So there you have the essence of the pulpit bunker it is the as I said the very center of internet childishness

59:16

There you go, so Yes, well first of all my apologies for misunderstanding and putting that up but during the show, but I Meant every word of what

59:29

I said there and it was so much I didn't say that I couldn't say I was just thankful that I was here alone when

59:34

I'm listening to that program Yeah, because it did touch me deeply. Yeah, and We don't get to hear things like that very often

59:42

No I get to hear it more often than you do Because I get to go out you you were sitting here and to answering the phone calls from the

59:49

Bible thumping wing the people like The constant barrage that we have been under for over a year now it does take its toll and we are human we are we have despite what some would like to think we have feelings and When you are, you know, when you use the term slander in reference to what some people do

01:00:16

It's It's one thing when it's out there and you're seeing it being done to someone else

01:00:22

It is altogether different when it's coming your way and it's coming your way with both barrels.

01:00:28

Oh, yeah, and I all I can do is thank Tottener and it was very sweet and and and everybody that that was it was very very very kind very very encouraging and So we wanted to say thanks for that.

01:00:43

We had said thanks briefly, but The brevity of my thanks is partly because I was sitting there going oh

01:00:50

Man, I know it's gonna happen if we even mention it, you know, it's but that happened anyways

01:00:56

You know, there's nothing nothing you can do about you. Just you just do what you can do. Okay phone calls for half an hour so we get close to the bottom bottom the hour we just Wrap them up from there.

01:01:09

I guess I do need this. I was but Just throw this away I I can't do this via hand signals we were trying that it didn't work so All right.

01:01:20

Let's go to the phone calls and Talk with Mike in California.

01:01:25

Hi Mike Hey, dr. White want to thank you you and rich I mean those encouragements were great and and and you've really blessed a lot of people through you guys ministry.

01:01:36

So thank you for that Thank you yeah, and So my question is actually

01:01:41

I know you're not an expert in biblical Hebrew at least that's not your you know focus but do you have any

01:01:50

Idea like where I can start Looking into study to study in biblical Hebrew. I really have no idea and I'm a layman

01:01:59

Got a family with four kids Don't have a lot of time to get into it, but I do want to get into it well

01:02:05

You know normally I'm asked more about learning a biblical

01:02:11

Greek and I think it's pretty much parallel answer here

01:02:16

I know a few people who have managed to utilize there's great resources today

01:02:24

Zondervan has for Greek the mounts series where you have the textbook the workbook

01:02:32

Lectures computer programs the whole nine yards and yeah, I forget the name it starts the

01:02:38

P As I recall of the author of the parallel For biblical

01:02:45

Hebrew, I think it starts the P but Zondervan has a biblical

01:02:50

Hebrew textbook Workbook stuff like that. I don't know if that individual has

01:02:58

Recorded the lectures that would go with that because that really is helpful

01:03:03

But those are the best those are the best things that you can use if you're going to make the attempt on your own

01:03:11

I'll just be Absolutely straight up honest with you of all of all the people who over the past.

01:03:18

I don't know 25 years Have asked me about this. I I know of one

01:03:25

Who took my advice Got the materials was disciplined did it?

01:03:32

I think he wasn't didn't have kids yet sort of probably helped But he did it and tested out of biblical

01:03:38

Greek at the master's seminary, which means you have to really be good at it Yeah, and hence was able to do two master's degrees in the time

01:03:46

It normally takes to do one and so I know of one person like that mainly because most of us

01:03:53

Really need a class structure we need the the regularity of the quizzes and the ability to ask the professor questions and it's just unless we sort of Have natural capacity and ability in language

01:04:11

Which mainly sort of ends when you're about 15? It can be

01:04:17

Very very very very challenging and the other thing, you know when

01:04:22

I've had people when I was teaching Greek at a local seminary here I'd have people contact me before the class started

01:04:30

What can I be doing beforehand to help increase the opportunities that I'm gonna survive this because in seminary

01:04:37

You have 15 weeks to do the entire the entire course

01:04:44

So in seminary you basically get taught to hate the languages not to love the languages because you do them way way too fast

01:04:49

But yeah, it's Van Pelt. Thank you someone in channel. It's Van Pelt. I knew there was a P in there But thank you.

01:04:55

Yeah, Van Pelt biblical Hebrew grammar and my answer always was that most of the people who fail in Learning the biblical languages, but I was speaking of Greek specifically, but it would be true of Hebrew as well

01:05:11

Is because they're trying to learn two languages at the same time. They're trying to learn the biblical language and English and so Reviewing biblical grammar.

01:05:21

I'm sorry English grammar These days a lot of people aren't even taught it you sadly, most people can get through the public education system with a minimal knowledge of the

01:05:32

English language and So if you're trying to figure out what a participle is in English at the same time

01:05:38

You're trying to memorize participial forms in Greek or the same thing with the mem performative in in Hebrew It's no wonder it can become extremely extremely difficult and and people people suffer.

01:05:53

The other thing to remember is It's not difficult to learn the Greek alphabet

01:06:00

But the Hebrew alphabet is is very mystifying to people. It takes a lot longer for most people

01:06:06

I do know people who have found Hebrew to be easier than Greek because linguistically Hebrew is easier than Greek but It is a

01:06:15

Semitic language. And so the parallels to English are almost non -existent.

01:06:21

There's almost no Vocabulary crossover anything like that and the thing that gets you eventually if you're doing it really quickly

01:06:27

Which you wouldn't necessarily be doing but but it still wears on anybody is that most of the vocabulary learning in Hebrew is

01:06:34

Triliteral there's three letters to it. So, you know, your your Greek words would be all sorts of different numbers of letters long long words short words

01:06:42

It says et cetera, et cetera, but in in Hebrew when you're talking verbs It's always three letters and after a while.

01:06:50

They just all start looking the same, you know I mean until you can start actually reading and and and because that's where you really start learning languages reading it if you're just trying to Memorize vocabulary and all the verbs are just three letters and a lot of the nouns are too

01:07:04

It's just like But for me, I took

01:07:09

Hebrew toward the end of my seminary experience right when I had two young kids and I think that you know had an impact so I don't want to make it sound like it's absolutely impossible

01:07:22

But it is really challenging and and 99 out of 100 don't make it so I'm just just unless you can, you know, the obviously the best thing to do is to is to find

01:07:35

You know a class locally even even if it were a class that met only once a week you know, maybe talk your wife into letting you have that amount of time, but Yeah, structure really helps.

01:07:48

Okay. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Okay. God bless. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

01:07:58

David in Chicago. Hi David Hey, how you doing Dr. White? Yeah, we met down in St.

01:08:04

Charles a couple years ago as the ex -Mormon that showed you my Resignation letter.

01:08:10

Oh, okay. Yes. Uh -huh. Yeah, so I had a question Concerned as an ex -Mormon now How about Jesus in the

01:08:16

Garden of Gethsemane? And I see some of the commentaries concerning his suffering there and how they and I've heard them actually comment that I've heard some

01:08:25

Christian commentators say that at the Garden of Gethsemane That the father places on the son or infuses him with all this sin the the sin of whether it's be the elect or the whole world depending on who you're listening to and he takes that to the cross and Completes the suffering there.

01:08:44

It's sort of akin to the Mormon view Just wanted your commentary on this to clarify it in my mind coming from I yourself as a study so well under with the

01:08:58

Mormon theology Well, I I've not encountered that in in conservative circles.

01:09:04

It's certainly in more mystical Interpretation or more liberal quote -unquote mainline.

01:09:12

I hate that term mainline mainline doesn't mean anything anymore It's it's the mainline over the cliffs. So We need some other term but the the dying

01:09:22

Former mainline denominations, you'll you'll get that kind of stuff where you're looking for some new way of looking at things but the reality is when you look at the discussion in the

01:09:34

New Testament And you look at the the great burden that Jesus is under As described by Luke and Matthew and his prayers and the repetition of the prayers and let this cup pass from me

01:09:48

This is not fear on Jesus as part of death by any stretch the imagination

01:09:54

It is in reference to his becoming Sin in behalf of his people, but nobody

01:10:01

I would think that somebody in the New Testament if in fact there was some

01:10:10

Salvific sin -bearing taking place in the garden itself that somewhere in Romans somewhere in Galatians or if in the final analysis, it would have to appear somewhere in Hebrews, which just addresses so many of the sacrificial aspects of Our Lord's intercessory work and so on so forth, but nobody says a word about it

01:10:36

So to try to read into The the prayers of of the

01:10:45

Lord and the the the entered literally inter Trinitarian yet incarnational

01:10:54

Insights that can be gathered from the Garden of Gethsemane There's there's nothing there that you know,

01:11:01

Jesus doesn't get up and say don't worry about guys. It's all it's it is finished No, it wasn't finished It was about to begin as far as the actual act of the self -giving and so while it is appropriate to say that the son

01:11:17

Demonstrates his utter submission to the father and his dedication to his task as the

01:11:22

Redeemer In what takes place in the Garden of Gethsemane? That's not the giving of the life

01:11:29

That may be the the final You know Jesus said earlier it is necessary that I go but when he said it's necessary I go nowhere does it say anything and suffer in a garden it is necessary I go and be betrayed in the hands of men and be crucified and rise again the third day

01:11:47

There's the there's a salvific acts. So even in Jesus's own teaching that's not there so there's there's much to be learned about the submission of the

01:11:56

Son to the will of the Father and and Everything else that goes goes with that, but there's nothing there that says this is where You know the union of the elect with the

01:12:08

Christ takes place or all of that is is pure speculative theology and Unfortunately, there is a lot of that stuff out there

01:12:16

Thank you. Dr. White. I appreciate your conversation with Sean McRae yourself have taught me quite well the the

01:12:22

Trinity coming out of Mormonism and I pray for your ministry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. God bless you.

01:12:27

Thank you Well, you know Remember all those trips up to Salt Lake City member member eating in Kanab And So we're only taking two more you think they think they're gonna take up the rest of time

01:12:47

Well, you know, what a see what a see if you know I was gonna give the number again, but you know, we'll we'll we'll see

01:12:56

Because this next one looks really weird. So Let's talk to Kurt Kurt in South Carolina Proportional atonement what on earth is that?

01:13:06

Yeah So this might be in the category of how many angels I'm out of a pen

01:13:12

Mm -hmm, and I realized that scripture warned us against main speculation

01:13:18

So I I obviously don't want to go there if that's the case but when it comes to Defending Penal substitutionary atonement or even particular redemption

01:13:31

Depending on the answer to this question that there are certain arguments that you can or can't use so basically, the test question would be hypothetically if There had been one more elect person in the world

01:13:48

Would Jesus have had to suffer more? I'm not sure what you mean by suffer more

01:13:55

You mean it's it's longer more intensely

01:14:02

What what does that mean? For a second longer a little more pain

01:14:12

That would be kind of the critique that you can see in In dr.

01:14:19

Brown's bait with Brian's on right He brings up that sort of mockery

01:14:27

Yeah, well Brian's on That's a that's a whole nother the whole other universe there but I Would have to answer no in the sense that it was the nature of the life that was given not the length of the self -giving or Anything along those lines,

01:14:50

I mean, you know, we we affirm the absolute sufficiency of the death of Christ to Redeem all mankind if all mankind had been joined in the will of the

01:15:05

Father with the Son so it's it's the nature of The God it's the nature of the life that is given which is the nature of the life of the

01:15:13

God man that gives it the efficacy the idea of Trying to sort of Apply a a well proportional amount of saying, you know

01:15:26

Coming up with a unit of suffering over a unit of time type thing is what brings forgiveness

01:15:33

It's it's the it's the nature of the life that's given not anything else that I think is really in view in in the

01:15:41

New Testament, so I My answer would be no because it doesn't address the issue of of who

01:15:49

Christ was and the perfection of his of the giving of the life of the God man, so I I would

01:15:56

I would hesitate to Get into the idea of assigning Amounts and things like that Right.

01:16:04

Okay That does make a lot of sense How Because it's also comes up when it comes to forming doctrinal statements

01:16:15

First of all, I was looking at one just this morning And the whole doctrinal statement is not

01:16:24

Particularly well worded, but here's one sentence God treated Jesus as if he had personally committed every sin committed by every person

01:16:33

Who would ever repent and believe the gospel? Well In you know for me personally,

01:16:43

I I always try to as a As a

01:16:48

Trinitarian apologist, I wish we would Especially we're talking about inner

01:16:54

Trinitarian activities Differentiate between father son and spirit more clearly. I mean,

01:16:59

I I know what is being referred to there That is the father treated Jesus in this way

01:17:04

But a lot of people that don't think that way get confused And end up subordinating and almost denying the deity of Christ because they use that terminology

01:17:13

That's that's not really relevant to your question But I I would prefer saying that the father treated the son as the perfect substitute

01:17:21

Who can bear all the punishment that is due to all of God's elect?

01:17:28

so Any of the the sins of the elect? Are born by the

01:17:34

Sun But again, it's it's not a matter of amount It's a matter of the quality and kind of the life that is given that is what avails for the sins of the elect

01:17:49

So, you know because if you don't go that direction then you have to go well Jesus didn't suffer long enough the cross should have lasted for 3 ,000 years or you know, whatever

01:17:59

That's not the issue the the issue is the gracious Self -giving of the life of the

01:18:05

God -man That's what avails before the judgment of God. I don't think you need to put the all the

01:18:14

Numerical categories or this is really where us Westerners Tend to I think sometimes wander off the reservation a little bit

01:18:23

Because we are reading a book that was written by Easterners not

01:18:28

Westerners primarily and This is one area where I think sometimes our our focus upon Spreadsheets and stuff like that can sometimes

01:18:43

Bring us into asking questions that I think the original New Testament writers would have been going Why are you interested in that again?

01:18:51

You know that that type of a type of thing I'm not sure they really would have understood some of the categories that we bring into it

01:18:57

Yeah Well, thank you. That's very helpful. Okay. All right. Thanks. Thanks Morning, I woke up and thanked

01:19:04

God for you and rich and ministry and Asking God to give you wisdom and strength for the different controversies you deal with.

01:19:13

Okay. I appreciate that Kurt All right. God bless all right, let's

01:19:18

Let's go to so State College PA is that is that the home of the

01:19:25

Nittany Lions? Yeah, it is. Okay. All right. I I lived in Pennsylvania for six years, but I was young so I really wasn't into Camp Hill and Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania in the suburbs of Harrisburg.

01:19:43

It's Mechanicsburg isn't that far from where I am where I live I go to school and State College, but I live just like a like half an hour away.

01:19:51

Okay, Lancaster direction or No, the other other way, okay.

01:19:57

All right. Yeah, I Mentioned this once before to people but I I went I went back to Pennsylvania in 1993 so I had been gone.

01:20:08

We left in 74 So I've been gone for 19 years and of course I left and I was 11 so I had never driven

01:20:14

Obviously in Pennsylvania and I'm in a rental car and I drove into Harrisburg and I wanted to find my old schools and my old houses and my old church where I was baptized and 19 years later after leaving 11 years of age.

01:20:27

I never made a wrong turn. I I could drive I went everywhere first shot remember where everything was including the

01:20:37

McDonald's That I almost grew up in At that point it's amazing

01:20:42

I'm as healthy as I am at my age given how many McDonald's cheeseburgers I've consumed over my life

01:20:47

But not nearly as many over the past number of years But yeah, it was fascinating and I got there the year before they tore down my first elementary school and rebuilt another one

01:20:55

So at least I got to see it before it before it disappeared. So that was fun. Anyways, that's not why you called

01:21:02

No, no, I actually I'm calling because I have I was in a discussion with one of my

01:21:08

Muslim friend and we were discussing the just some passages in the

01:21:13

New Testament and One of the questions that he asked me was how can the

01:21:19

New Testament? How can we say that the New Testament is reliable if we don't really know? What language the original authors were speaking compared to the fact that they were writing it in Greek?

01:21:30

His main argument was that well if the New Testament is written in Greek But if the people like let's say

01:21:36

Jesus or the other Apostles spoke mainly Aramaic or Hebrew? How do we know that things weren't changed in between that and I thought

01:21:44

I would maybe ask you that well a couple things The especially the major doctrinal portions of the

01:21:50

New Testament the didactic portions the epistolary literature, etc, etc basically anything outside of Matthew Mark Luke John and Acts Is written by Greek speakers for Greek speakers

01:22:03

And so there's there's just if you're writing to the church at Ephesus the the language They all have in common is

01:22:09

Koine Greek. So it was written in Greek and and so there's no question about any of that Even when you get into Acts Clearly, it's written by a very educated

01:22:20

Greek speaker named Luke But then you have the issue of yeah But when

01:22:25

Peter is preaching to the Jews at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, he's not doing that in Koine Greek then again

01:22:33

He was speaking supernaturally and people of all different languages were understanding him So that's that raises a whole nother issue, but it is common for Muslims to go

01:22:41

Well, you know Jesus would have been speaking Aramaic and this is all written in Greek. So who's to know?

01:22:46

well I always find that a little bit odd on the part of Muslims because Muslims do believe in an absolute concept of literally mp3 style dictation inspiration, so They don't even believe that Muhammad needed to understand what he was saying

01:23:05

There's not a bit of Muhammad in the Quran So there's stuff that would be in the

01:23:11

Quran that Muhammad never would have even understood. So they're not They are supernaturalists when it comes to the

01:23:20

Quran But then when it comes to the New Testament all of a sudden they become naturalists again It's it's a it's a strange double standard that they have at that particular point and if yeah

01:23:29

Yeah, and a lot of your debates I don't remember with what his name is, but I've noticed that inconsistency or at least things like that Oh, yeah it is it is a

01:23:40

Regular part of dealing with Muslims that they will use one standard with the Quran and completely different stare for the New Testament It's not that there aren't

01:23:46

Christians that return the favor I try not to as best I can But yeah, we do need to sort of hold their feet to the fire at that point.

01:23:55

But if we believe What this you have to sort of look this at this as an opportunity

01:24:03

Because what this can allow you to do is to say well, let me let me explain to you the difference between your understanding of inspiration and ours

01:24:13

Because they'll listen to Paul saying something like I not the Lord say this and say see

01:24:18

Paul was denying his own his own inspiration Etc, etc When in point of fact, he was simply referring to the fact that he knew of Jesus's teaching about divorce

01:24:27

And now he was giving something that Jesus hadn't given but didn't mean it was uninspired or anything But it is an opportunity to explain the difference

01:24:35

We don't believe that God simply takes people over and turns him into mp3 recorders the language of Paul the language of John the language of Luke very very different from one another men spoke from God as they were carried along by the

01:24:52

Holy Spirit But it didn't destroy their personalities their experiences their history as the

01:24:57

Psalter itself Demonstrates God can use men in all sorts of different situations to communicate to us as well and to give a scripture and Jesus Then affirmed that as scripture.

01:25:09

So if they believe Jesus is a prophet, they're sort of stuck saying well, you know He was wrong about the salt or whatever else it might be.

01:25:15

So I would take that as an opportunity to explain what inspiration really is because I think we have a much higher view of inspiration than Islam does

01:25:24

I think a an mp3 style dictation theory of inspiration is significantly less

01:25:32

Than the idea of men Speaking as they're carried along by the

01:25:37

Holy Spirit So that God uses Peter to communicate his message through Peter and he uses

01:25:43

Paul and he uses James and they use different words and they have different experiences and backgrounds and yet what comes of all of that is exactly what

01:25:52

God wants us to have and it's so much richer and fuller than if it's just simply a monotone one voice

01:25:58

No differences in experience type type situation and so I just use it as an opening to to explain that and to say

01:26:07

Isn't God big enough to use a number of different men? Because that that's one of the big issues is the Quran is has one author from their perspective well a law but still one author in as far as a human intermediary is concerned and we have

01:26:23

Multiple and in some cases we don't know who the author is in regards to Hebrews They just find that in impossible to understand because they take later standards

01:26:32

It's not chains and stuff like that and read it back into the New Testament context

01:26:38

So yeah That's that's that's the direction. I would go is to is to try to say hey, you know what?

01:26:45

We actually have a much higher view and if and you don't have as a

01:26:50

Muslim have a consistent reason to Reject the supernatural ism. That's the very foundation of our beliefs

01:26:57

Sure. Sure. Yeah, I think that I think I'll probably do that next time. I get a chance to talk to him.

01:27:02

I mean Hopefully I can meet him soon. Okay, we're we go to the same University. So I'll probably see him sometime.

01:27:08

No good Alright, we'll stay warm back there Yeah, yeah, it's we've actually had some warm days lately.

01:27:14

But yeah, I'll do my best. Okay. Thanks a lot Nate. All right God bless. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right one last call real quick here.

01:27:21

Let's finish off with Brian in Tennessee. Hi Brian Hello, Dr. White Yes, sir,

01:27:28

I'm doing good Good. Oh I'm outside. I'm outside working here.

01:27:34

Oh, okay. I very rarely I'm able to call live.

01:27:40

So I kind of decided to take advantage of the opportunity. I don't really have a question I just wanted to encourage you you're

01:27:48

The ministry has been really helpful to me really Encouraged me and built up me in the faith.

01:27:56

I was raised in the faith, but really It's helped me in a lot of ways. Okay, and for one thing specific the

01:28:05

I Think you have probably done more than anyone else to make John chapter 6 my favorite chapter in the

01:28:11

Bible In a lot of ways and also,

01:28:17

I Spent a lot of time in Zambia. I live live there for about eight years

01:28:22

Oh, really? My parents were missionaries there. Oh, and so I'm really excited actually and I married a

01:28:28

Zambian. Oh Well, you know, do you know where the African Bible College is

01:28:34

I do I've never been there But I do know I've Been mostly lived in Lusaka.

01:28:42

So I know Okay, I know well, I've never been there before so it's gonna be it's gonna be new new for me

01:28:50

I'm a little scared of the food to be honest with you I'm not a big adventurous eater type person.

01:28:56

Oh So, you know, I'm gonna be looking for the golden arches or something, but I don't think

01:29:02

I'm gonna find them So Well, I know that they have subway there,

01:29:07

I don't know if you like subway I love subway I love subway there There's somebody will save me Subway does breakfast too.

01:29:15

So The people are very friendly,

01:29:24

I'm sure you'll be well cared for Yes, I'm sure those regards and I I really I'm actually working on getting my wife to be she's still over there oh my so I'm I got married last year and It's taking a while.

01:29:38

But anyway, I'm Hoping if possible that I may actually plan a trip to visit there and may actually see you

01:29:45

I'm hoping it'll work out. Well, there you go. I'm supposed to be there somewhere around the 23rd of May. So there you go

01:29:52

All right. Well, thank you Brian. I appreciate that and I hope the Stuff works out with your wife that she's able to join you very soon

01:29:59

Well, thank you and I just wanted to say that if you are able to go The people in Zambia need the same thing everyone else does and that's

01:30:07

God's Word. I'm I'll do my best. I appreciate it All right. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Brian For those of you who only joined us

01:30:20

He was referring to the fact that we are trying to get funding for our trip in May that will include

01:30:27

Right now London Johannesburg Zambia the African Bible College with Vodie Balcombe and then on the way back

01:30:36

Hopefully up into Scotland on the way back We are playing the debates and things that go along with that and nearly three weeks in length

01:30:45

But we need your help to be able to make it make it all happen So there's a travel link in the donation page on the website a omen org if you can help us

01:30:57

To sort of get around about halfway around the world and back again. It's good. The back part is good

01:31:03

There's a lot of people who would like to see me go only halfway and then stay there We realize that but the second half would be nice to come back

01:31:11

I've got grandkids here that would like to see me once in a while other than on FaceTime So that's what we're referring to there.