Joseph Spurgeon on Postmillennialism

And then you can look at the enemies that have been put under the feet of Jesus, like the early persecutions, Judaism and Rome, nobody even remotely would have thought of or heard of Jefferson, Indiana or New York in the time of Christ or in the apostles, what Paul was doing.

And yet here you and I are talking to people that are sitting in other podunk places about the good news of Jesus. If that isn't the victory of the gospel, then what is?

Introduction to the Conversation and the Guest

Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I'm your host, John Harris. And we have a special guest today we've had on the podcast before, Pastor Joseph Spurgeon. He is the host of the Patriarchy Podcast and the pastor at Sovereign King Church in Jeffersonville,.

Indiana.

And he is going to talk to us today about post-millennialism. As many of you know, we are in a mini series on eschatology. We've done dispensational, pre-millennialism, we've done, what did we do yesterday, amillennialism.

And now we're going to talk a little bit about post-millennialism, try to understand that. And I'll give some of the objections, at least I've heard to it and hear what Joseph has to say. And hopefully this will help you as you're speaking to Christians who have different perspectives.

We'll also, Lord willing, get into a little bit of what this means practically, if it does mean something practically, because a lot of post-millennialists think this is, in my experience, at least the key to living the Christian life.

Maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but that, you know, you need to have post-millennialism in order to do things in the social and governmental sphere. So we'll examine that and also maybe church-Israel connection and that kind of thing.

So with that, welcome back, Pastor Joseph Spurgeon. Thank you.

Hey, good to be back on your show.

Yeah.

It's good to be here.

Yeah. Yeah.

How are things going for you?

They're going pretty good, man. The Lord's blessed us at church and in our family and just a lot of good work to do.

Yeah.

I've seen you put out a lot of content lately on your podcast. I see you posted on Facebook. So I know that you're pretty busy. I mean, every pastor I know is pretty busy, but with all the kids you have and everything, it's a sacrifice of time to come on a podcast like this and talk about this issue.

So we really appreciate it. And maybe we'll just start here since I think maybe being a little autobiographical is helpful for people. Where did you come from on your eschatology journey? Because most people seem to have been raised with something that they aren't anymore.

I don't know if that's the case for you, but I know you were a Baptist at one time. So I'm assuming you were probably dispensational pre-millennial.

Yeah, I would not drink Munster Energy drinks because they might be the mark of the beast.

There you go.

So you're like fundamentalist type.

Yeah.

I grew up in a Baptist home. My dad's a pastor. He's kind of John MacArthur type Baptist, but not as a stodgy or stuffy. But Calvinistic and very dispensational. And I grew up that way. We would watch Jack Van Impey.

You know who that is?

Yeah, I do. I think he's a prosperity guy, but maybe not. I thought he was.

No, Jack Van Impey was the dispensational guy.

Like everything.

Okay, he's on TBN though.

He might have been on TBN, I think. I just remember watching him. I mean, he was all about the end times. And that dude had just the dial of verse in his mind all the time. Like he was constantly able to just quote scripture left and right, often to such a dazzling effect that you had no way to figure out what he said actually right or not.

So I remember like in 1999, for example, the year 2000 coming on and just thinking this has got to be it. This is going to be the time. And he would talk about the European union and, you know, the rebuilding of the temple and had all these verses dealing with Russia.

And every few years, you know, there would be a new, new something that means it's right upon us. And so he was constantly analyzing the news for signs of left behind stuff. So I've also read all those books, was very much into all that.

That put a bad taste in your mouth.

Well, you know, I, I don't look back upon it like negatively, completely negatively. I mean, I grew up in a Christian home. I love, my dad loves Jesus and I love Jesus and I'm thankful, you know? I think dispensationalism is wrong and I kind of went through the cage stage.

I would say that it was wrong and would talk about it a lot. That's like 20 some years ago to me. I don't quite think about it. It just doesn't take up a lot of space in my mind anymore. And I even went through a cage stage of eschatology, my current view, and even now I feel a little bit more settled and a little bit more settled in the sense of this is a difficult topic, eschatology.

And I don't, I don't think that it's meaningless. I do think it has implications for how we live, but I also don't think it's the key. Like you brought that up earlier. Is this the key to how you live as a Christian?

I don't, I don't think so. I mean, I think in one sense, yes, the, the, the hope of the future resurrection of Christ return, that is key that like that, but that's what we all share. But the, the specifics, how we get there, not quite.

I asked you about your, I guess, journey to just because I think a lot of people have gone through that. Most postmill guys, I will put it this way. The most enthusiastic postmill guys that I've met were former dispensationalists.

The ones who were raised in it tend to be like more so, but the ones who made a conversion as it were, I remember one guy told me this is cause I, I've been thinking about these issues for, you know, at least like 17 years probably.

And one of the first guys who kind of got cage stage postmill friend of mine, he said, look, John, you gotta look, you gotta look at this as a worldview. This isn't just an eschatology flavor. This transforms everything you think the way you approach every subject will be different once you, and he was a dispensationalist, but then, uh, he was, it was actually at John MacArthur's church.

We were both attending at the time, uh, cause I was living in California and he's like, you know, you, you reject this stuff that MacArthur's teaching. It's gonna, it's like a whole new world. So I know that's not obviously every postmortem guy, but there is this stereotype.

Um, and so it sounds like you had that phase kind of, and then every time you discover.

A truth, cause I believe this is to be true.

I'm calling it right.

But every time you discover a new truth, you go through that phase where it unlocks everything because that is how truth works. It interacts. It's not there. There's very little isolated truths, if you will, that don't matter.

And those that are that we don't fight about, right? Like it's the things that do interconnect. So I, you know, at, uh, at times it can appear as if dispensationalism is a completely different religion at times than post-millennialism like, uh, our efforts, what we expect to happen, obviously how we view Israel and, and, you know, there are the hyper dispensationalist, the kind of the old school, very old school in which like it, it, it does start to, you know, veer from what Christianity is when you have a view that Jews can be saved apart from Christ or with bringing back the old Testament sacrifices, like, uh, that's, that's heresy.

So.

In a memorial sense, right. That's how I, I mean, I've never heard one say that there'll be actual sacrifices that are efficacious, but maybe there are some, I don't know.

Yeah.

But there's this, you know, I grew up in the, kind of the, the extreme version. My dad was not the extreme, but just surrounded by it.

Right.

So, right. And so I've heard all those things. So you start to find out, wait, wait a second, something's not right here. In fact, interestingly enough, I was running from God's called a ministry in my life and kind of running from God, kind of angry at God and, um, God used a RUF minister who brought up the fact that, well, you know, that Israel in the middle East is not the exactly the Israel in the Bible is that God's chosen people is not the, and even though I'm running from God, like those were fighting words, cause that was like an attack, like my background a little bit.

Wow.

And so I debated and I wanted to fight. And then that's where I, he, he mentioned something about John Calvin. And so I went and read Calvin's institutes and that's how it became a Calvinist. And that's really how it was like, Oh, wait a second, this guy actually knew what he was talking about.

And he started making sense. He gave me, he, believe it or not, Gary DeMar's book, uh, in times of madness. And this is before Gary DeMar.

Now Gary DeMar's kind of mad, right now he joined that madness. He joined the madness.

But before then, this was, you know, 20 some years ago before that was even on the table and it was helpful. And um, and so I went through that and I kind of came, okay, I'm not dispensationalist. You know, I, I'm not pre-millennial.

I don't know what I am. So I was in seminary and that's when, uh, I really started to study more and became convinced of the post-millennial position.

Defining Postmillennialism and Its Variants

So let's talk about that a little, cause I want to understand. And I, I, it sounds like Calvin himself was instrumental in this. Was Calvin himself a post-millennial guy or was he on millennial?

What was he?

This is going to be, this is, this is hotly debated. So, um, I think we, we need to define post-mill maybe a little bit because there's a spectrum to it as well. So there is the Puritan kind of view in which their view of post-millennial is that the millennial reign hasn't quite started yet.

It's it's in the future that there is some golden age still to come in the future. And then there are the more like my, my self position, which is more akin to all millennialism, but has a different outlook on how that the, the church age will grow.

So in other words, sometimes some people call it optimistic on millennialism. And there's, there's very slight differences maybe between me and that. But, uh, when, in that case, most modern post-millennial star is that, and I think John Calvin was that, I think he, he had hope and looked forward to all the nations, um, repenting and coming into the kingdom.

I, I, I think he believed that at the end, the Jews as a people would be engrafted back in, not through anything else other than the preaching of the gospel and the, and the, uh, the Holy spirit's work in salvation, the same way we experienced it.

And so I, I think my position is Calvin's and, um, and I think it's Matthew Henry's and many in the church. So really the difference between my position and like a non-millennial is maybe what we expect during this, this, this church age, like, so I'm more optimistic and, and some people might say, well, that's just a matter of your personality.

Cause I'm also an optimistic type person, but I haven't always been, I think actually what's made me optimistic is being is, is the Bible and understanding God's word and having faith for it. So, uh, that puts me slightly different than the Puritans.

I think they were still looking for something way in the future though. And one sense I am too. So there's not a whole lot of difference there either. So I don't know if that clarifies or confuses.

Gospel, Sanctification, and the Cultural Mandate

Well, no, I think it helps. Um, I, so we want to understand, and I think sometimes, you know, as the early church, especially, uh, was figuring doctrine out, they would do it in light of an objection, right?

Usually a heresy. And I think that in the last few podcasts I've done on this subject, that's been a helpful way to progress the conversation. So maybe I'll just, uh, throw a few things at you that will help define it further that are objections that I hear today to post-millennialism.

And, um, one of them is that there, there's a corruption of the gospel. So this is, it's an interesting thing because I hear some post-millennial guys say pre-millennial or dispensational, especially pre-millennials are, uh, heretical they'll just even shorthand to say the dispensational heresy, which I think is, um, just my opinion is that that is, uh, imprudent.

You need to identify exactly what you're talking. If you're saying there's two different salvations, yes, you're talking about heresy, but most dispensationalists don't believe. So, you know, that's my, but with post-millennialism, I see the same kind of, uh, straw manning where, where guys, mostly pre-millennialists will say, well, you are fusing the gospel with the work of the church or the.

Uh, cultural mandate. You're saying that Christians need to go out there and take over government schools, arts, all these institutional things, and then, uh, they're going to usher in this golden age.

And that's, um, and sometimes this is fused with, and I actually have heard post-millennial guys fuse this, but maybe they're more careless when they do this, but saying that that's the gospel of the kingdom or fusing it with the gospel.

And, and, and so it sounds like what is being said when I hear that is, Hey, you pre-millennialist, you are millennialist guys. You're not number one, you're not doing kingdom work. And number two, you, you might even have the gospel wrong because.

Uh, we're doing, uh, we're actually ushering in the gospel of the kingdom, whereas you guys are sitting on your hands. So maybe address that a little flesh that out what's wrong with that straw, man.

Yeah.

Um, I think there's, so every straw man is able to take a little truth. And so, um, post-millennialist, myself included, I think have a view of the gospel that, that, that is more than just personal salvation for an individual.

So that the good news is the news of Christ's reign over the earth and that he is restoring, um, all of creation. And I think everybody can agree to that. The answer is when that is going to happen. But, um, our view is that the mission of the church is making disciples, which includes their personal salvation, but also their sanctification and that, that impacts all areas of life.

And so often these debates, I think, um, are differences of emphasis on manners of justification versus sanctification versus, so, uh, we are not saved by any works where we're not justified by our works were justified by the finished work of Christ on the cross, but Jesus saves us and then he, we're declared righteous by God's decree, but God's declaring us righteous.

We receive that through faith, but then we work that out. We become what God declared us to be. And post-millennialism is the view of sanctification on a broader level than just the individual. It is on family units and on the, the national level or societal level.

And that as Christ is reigning throughout history, he is putting his enemies under his feet, which includes bad theologies, bad ideologies, false teaching the, the idols of the nations. And, um, as that happens, the gospel makes more inroads in individuals and in their lives and how that's carried out.

And that has an impact all around us. And so we might argue, and I've heard post-millennialists argue that dispensationalism and others can truncate the gospel because they make it to be, and this is probably a straw man, so forgive me, but they make it seem to be a fire insurance, if you will.

It's a matter of getting down to hell, but there's not a matter of what we do now. And I think post-millennialism is okay. What do we do now? And I think you look at the promises throughout scripture from the very beginning, like when Adam and Eve failed, that the promise given to the serpent was the, the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent.

And I don't think that was merely limited to personal salvation or an individual salvation. I think that has to do with like defeating the works of the in, in this world as well. So we love the song joy to the world and you know, the verse as far as the curse is found.

And, and so I would argue that's a post-millennial Christmas.

We're all post-millennialists on Christmas. Let's explore this just a little bit. Cause this, this sort of goes into. Uh, some of the things that I've critiqued in liberation theology, right? Because liberation theology, um, obviously from a leftward angle.

So I'm not imposing any of that on you at all, but they will say that the gospel of the kingdom is this, uh, fully fleshed out social program that we need to be advocating. And, uh, there's an element of works in this and they'll say, you're not being true to the gospel, or you have a half gospel or a partial gospel if you are not on board with the social program.

And I have, uh, in my work said, Hey, look, this sounds a lot like the Galatian heresy. This sounds like you're saying you're not circumcised. You need to do something. And Paul's whole point, obviously in Galatians is that, uh, it's the work of Christ, that's the gospel.

The good news is that Christ has done something. It is not that, uh, we can add to that or, you know, and maybe that's in the context of justification, but we can't justify ourselves. Um, obviously the, the term gospel can be used for the gospels, these accounts of Jesus, right?

There's, there's different ways the term can be used, but Paul seems pretty, uh, rigid on like, this is theologically the gospel is this good news of what Christ has done. And I don't see a conflict in when Jesus talks about like the gospel of the kingdom.

I don't take it as like, I, this is the, the gospel that is attached to the kingdom. I don't, I know I've never taken that as like the kingdom is the gospel, if you know what I mean. Um, and I don't know if that's what you're saying.

So maybe you could weigh in on, is there a law gospel distinction in post-millennialism is how do you grapple with question?

Yes.

Yeah.

There, there has to be because we don't believe that we are saved by law keeping and justified by that. But so the gospel can be spoken of in a broad sense. Like you just said, what the, the gospels themselves are called the gospels and they tell the whole story of Christ teaching and all that.

Yes.

And then there's the, the narrow sense in which we often talk, which is Christ died for our sins. And I have to believe I have to, I must repent and believe and have faith. But, uh, I think the gospel also can be spoken more broadly as well as what is the results of Christ work.

And, and so when you say the gospel of the kingdom, I don't know if it's, I don't know if I would agree with it's attached to the kingdom, rather it's the good news of the kingdom. It's the good news that Jesus is King.

And that, that has implications for everywhere. Like the fact that he's King is good news because it means rebels like me can be forgiven of my sins by faith in him. It's also good news that he's King because he's placing his enemies under his feet.

Like one of the aspects of the gospel is that those who don't repent, God will destroy. And that's good news. It's good news. Not necessarily for them, but for God's people that it's good, right? It's good that God's going to get rid of the wicked.

I was just talking with a young man today at my church. She was just reading some books. Uh, uh, I think it was that he's reading, um, the sword and the scimitar and he's just very, he's struggling with anger, anger at like, it seems like the wicked always seem to thrive.

And I think one of the good news of the gospel is that that's not true. Is that, yes, they seem to thrive, but you know, Psalm 37, Psalm 73, they have their day coming. You know, when the apostles preached the gospel, they were preaching that Jesus, that they basically, if you would read acts two, what was it like, uh, this Jesus, you guys killed, and by the way, God made him King and now he reigns over the whole universe and they're cut to the heart because it's like, Oh, we just, we just killed the King.

We just, we, we, we offended him. And what do we have to do? Repent and believe so that it's not that they have to do works, but now that they are safe, they're brought into his kingdom and they begin living out their faith and that's part of the work of.

The church is what do we do now that we're saved? We're making disciples who obey all of God's commandments. I think the real problem with the kind of liberation theology and the liberation movement is they twist all that.

It, um, it's also the problem of progressivism. So if you think about how liberalism or progressivism came about in our country's history, it really is a twisting of post-millennial hope that the Puritans and the church had in the 1800s.

What happened was the, there was, uh, this great hope that the church through its obedience to God would bring about good social order and, and push back many of the problems. But then you have German higher criticism coming in and suddenly he starts eating at the very root of what the truths of who Jesus is.

And that's right. And it takes away the historical truths of Christianity. And all they were left with was social improvement. All they're left with is that, and, and that became what the gospel was all about.

Like you look at Methodist, Methodist, even liberal Methodists still do a lot of good things, you know, like socially good, not all the time, but, you know, I think we can say, I've given blood, for example, to red cross and it's often done at a Methodist church.

And you go and you donate and it's like, they're really involved in that because they've, they've held on to some kernel, some truth, but they've, in many cases, objected and I'm talking about the liberal Methodists when I talk about Methodist here, but they've, they've gotten, they've gotten rid of the truths that undergird it.

So I'm not arguing to do that. I'm also not arguing the twisted, the, our obedience and the, the, the way that this impacts the culture is through our being sanctified and through our obedience to God's law.

I think that's different than liberation theology. Maybe you're my, no more. You can correct me.

Well, I, you know, I don't want to correct you. I think you're right that, uh, there I've always seen a distinction. Like if you read, um, like Joe boot, I think is a post-millennial guy. Right. And I've, I've looked at what he said about the gospel of the kingdom.

And then what, uh, someone like, um, who's Jim Wallace at Sojourner says, and I, and I could, they're saying similar things, but they also diverge because, uh, Jim Wallace is like the left. We'll start saying things like, I think Jim Wallace has said this.

Uh, Eric Mason says it's actually in woke church. He says, Hey, we, we Christians can learn how to do the gospel or how to be gospel Christians, um, gospel centeredness, right? And the gospel is so watered down that term, but they'll say, we can learn that from unbelievers, the anti-apartheid, uh, regime in South Africa can teach us the gospel.

Eric Mason says, or the denazification program in Germany can teach us the gospel and you're like, but there's no spirit of God in any of that. So, and that's not what you're saying at all. Um, and I think that's a big difference, but, uh, but one thing I, and I would like to ask you this, and maybe this gets in the nature of the kingdom.

Cause Jesus, I know. Um, I think I just pulled up the reference. It gets Luke 17, Luke 17 21. He says that, um, the kingdom of God is within the hearts of those who believe. And, uh, the nature of the kingdom becomes a big issue with all of this as well.

What is the kingdom? Is, is it a spiritual, which amillennialists like to focus on that? I think a lot more, I get the sense. And that it's a spiritual kingdom that's here. Uh, and it's really among the church, it's the believers and the spirit of God, um, in their hearts.

That's, that's what the kingdom is. And maybe with a view that it will one day manifest, but that's not for our, us to work toward. Right. And the post-millennialists seem to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that they want to work towards this kingdom, uh, in the here and now, or they think maybe it is now or it's impending or maybe flush that out.

The Nature of the Kingdom and Its Growth in History

Yeah.

So I, um, I do believe that the kingdom is, uh, uh, ultimately spiritual. Like Jesus says, you can't look at it and say, here it is. There it is. Here it is. Like, it's not a, it's not, we can't mistake it with the nations of this earth or even cultural progress.

So much. I see, I see that as implications of the kingdom and, and almost necessary implications. But, uh, so I would agree that in one sense, it's, it's in the heart of spiritual, uh, our, I'm Westminster confession, which says that the church is actually the kingdom of, of Christ, that the visible church is the visible manifestation of it.

And so the, the, the fullness of this kingdom, um, is, will not be manifested until Christ returns. But, uh, I know that there are some, and I've been in some circles that post-millennials would disagree.

And they would argue that the kingdom is not just the church. It's, it's more expansive. And I think there's some truth to the fact that it, what they're trying to get at is that Christ reigns over more than just the church.

So I'm not one kingdom. So if somebody like Joe boot is more one kingdom, I'm classical to kingdom. I fit, I'm fitting more with, I believe the reformed understanding that Christ reigns over the whole world and, and particularly mediatorially, uh, over his church, so that even the reign over all the nations is for the good of his.

Church.

Christian Ethics, Common Grace, and Kingdom Language

So let me ask you this, um, can you then, and I think I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it. So can you have an institution? Let's say that is part of the kingdom or reflecting the kingdom that doesn't have any Christians in it.

So let me give you an example. Uh, and this is from the left more, but like, uh, let's say a prison system, right? Like it's reformed now there's policies, uh, policies that were supposedly, let's say abusive and cause disparities are done away with.

And now we have good policies. Uh, let's say that, let's say they're more, it's more just, I don't know. This is a bad example. Actually, now that I think about it, cause if you're more theonomic, especially prisons, aren't the best example to use, you don't want them anyway, right?

But all right, let's, let's use a different, let's say a banking system or something that's more just without usury or something. It's it conforms more to a biblical standard is, can you have a bank that's, um, reflecting good wise laws, but there's no Christians.

There's no spirit of God in the, in the employees who work it would, how do you categorize that kind of a thing? Does that mean the God, if this is the kingdom, this is the gospel, or do you say, well, there's no spirit there.

There can't be.

Yeah.

That's a, I feel like this is almost tangentially related to can a nation be Christian or can a family be Christian and that kind of probably.

Probably.

So this is one of the arguments I. So again, because I believe the church is the kingdom, uh, in one sense. And I also think that the whole world is God's kingdom and another sense. And so it depends what sense you're meaning.

If you're meaning in a sense of like, we're longing for working for the growth of the kingdom, when it sees, you know, we pray your kingdom come. Like, I don't think that I would call that bank, the kingdom of God, I would call it, it's under the reign of God.

And if it's doing good things, well, hallelujah. Praise God.

So I should probably should have phrased it this way. Like, where do you categorize Christian ethics? Is that, can you have Christian ethics? Cause you didn't have unbelievers do wise things and behave in ways that obviously it's not the good that pleases God in a spiritual sense, but they're reflecting an instinct that God has given them to provide for their children or something like that.

Uh, we're both appreciative of some of the good things Trump has done. For example, that, uh, we would say conform more to let a biblical standard than what Kamala Harris would have done. Where's the category for that in, in the post-millennial kind of kingdom framework is, is Trump advancing the kingdom?

Is it maybe, I don't know. I don't know if, if I could explain it better, but, uh, I know what you mean.

And I think, I feel like you had to interview another post-millennial. So some of this, you might get completely different answers.

Okay.

I want your answer, but my, you want, my answer is we don't actually advance the kingdom. God does. Christ does. He uses us. We're instruments in that. And we do that work. And in that sense, we can say we are, you know, we do advance the kingdom and my church's, um, uh, vision and mission.

We, we, we, we say that we are a confessing church, a proclaiming church and a constructing church. That is, we're building, we're building the kingdom. And that includes through all the discipleship and all this stuff.

I think you can say that, but I would not say that Trump is advancing the kingdom. I could say that God is using president Trump to advance his kingdom. And I think that's true. I think he, I can, you can, I think you can, and you should say that, that God used Joe Biden to advance his kingdom.

Like God, Jesus is reigning over every part of this world. There's not a, uh, a stray molecule anywhere that is outside of his control. And he's doing it all to advance his kingdom and to advance his people on and what's good for his people.

And so in that sense, you could say it, but in the sense of, I think what you're trying to get at is just people doing good things. Does that in itself count as kingdom work? And I don't think so.

Yeah.

That, and that's good to hear.

Yeah.

So it sounds like if you use the gospel more broadly, the way you're using it, you're not confusing justification here. I mean, this is what I want to make clarify for everyone. You're still saying, no, it's all of Christ.

There's no works. You part, you can't participate. You don't have a truncated gospel, uh, in the, in the justification sense, at least, um, if it's faith in Jesus Christ and him alone. So, but I, I think the, the, the issue that I'm trying to get at is like, um, if the fruit of the gospel are these good things, then they must stem from, or the, I want to phrase it the way that you would phrase it, the fruit of justification.

If the fruit of justification and the effect of the kingdom is all these good results and these results are things like law keeping, right? This is where law enters the equation, but it's on the other end.

It's not for salvation. It's a, it's the fruit of, of a salvation in people's hearts. Uh, and that's part of the kingdom. That's what I hear you saying is that you have, um, that, that works are not the root of your salvation.

It's Christ's work, but then you have this fruit. And sometimes that will also be called part of the gospel. I'm a little uncomfortable with that, but okay. That's, that's, this is part of the good news.

Cause this is good fruit that's coming. Um, and when something else that happens, that's good, if it's not driven by the spirit of God, and if it's not the fruit of the gospel or the church, then I'm trying to figure out where to put that, where I put.

That, I still put that as fruit of the gospel in the sense of it's the fruit of Christ ring, Christ is reigning in heaven right now, putting all his enemies under his feet. And so when anything happens, this is the fruit of that, like the, uh, uh, Jesus, uh, obviously the, the eternal son of God reigned throughout all of time, but there's, there is a difference in his coming and that now the divinity is united with man.

That is, there's a, uh, in heaven right now, which is amazing to think about. There is a human, fully human, also fully divine, but a human reigning over the whole universe. Like he's sitting on a throne and he's putting his enemies under his feet.

And so when things happen, uh, in, and, and the, um, there's progress even culturally or those things, those are all the results of God's work. And I think he does it all for the good of his church. So I think I would also agree with you that when, when we are engaged in doing that work, which we should be, it's the fruit of what God has done in us.

So I just, I'm trying to say that, that Christ is the one doing all of this. And I believe that the promise is that his glory will go from C to C. Like it'll cover the earth, the gospel. That is the good news of Christ reign, which is that sinners can be set free from their sin.

And I believe that that means many, many, many, many, many people coming whole nations, even repenting. And I believe that's all the promises of scripture and that's what Jesus is working out now.