August 12, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “Unconditional Election, Thomas Cranmer, & the Reformed Church of England”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 12th day of August, 2020, and I say without fear of flattery or exaggeration that I am interviewing today one of my favorite guests, somebody who's grown very near and dear to me as a friend and someone who

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I pray that I have many years of fellowship awaiting us, he and his wife, his lovely wife

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Maureen. I'm speaking of Roger Salter, who is rector of St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and we are going to be addressing today,

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Unconditional Election and the Little -Known Fact that Anglican Martyr Thomas Cranmer Structured the

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Reformed Church of England on Divine Predestination, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Roger Salter.

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Well, as always, Chris, it's an immense, immense pleasure to be with you, and I'm always grateful for your hospitality, kindness, and patience.

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Well, I just love having you on and look forward to many, many more interviews, as many as the

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Lord will permit, and before we go into our subject at hand, tell us about St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Well, we are a

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Reformed Anglican Church. You could describe us not in overestimating the value of the man, but we are

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Cranmerian in our liturgy and our theology, which means that we're countercultural, first of all, and we're not in line with sort of mainstream

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Christianity, in a way. We're not saying that in any sense of being distinctive or superior.

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We just realize that for many folk, the old -fashioned gospel and the constitutional theological position of Anglicanism is something that's quite alien to modern minds now, but we're a small group now, and we actually share our building with a congregation of Reformed Baptists.

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Yes, sir. Yeah, there's very little between us, and it's lovely to have the fellowship, and we feel as if, in a sense, we're one brotherhood.

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Amen. Well, if anybody wants more information on St. Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham, you can go to STM, which stands for St.

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Matthew's, stmanglican .weebly .com, stmanglican .weebly,

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w -e -e -b -e -l -y .com, you can also go to rogersalter .com, that's rogersalter .com,

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and his last name is spelt without the P, as many of you might have immediately thought of spelling it because of the

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Old Testament hymn book that we have there in the

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Scriptures, known as the Psalter, and we are just so thrilled to have

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Roger back, as I was saying, and in fact, I think that our listeners should also know about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Birmingham, the aforementioned

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Reformed Baptist Church that shares a building with St.

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Matthew's in Birmingham. Todd Wilson is the pastor, and their website is gracecovenantbaptist .org,

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gracecovenantbaptist .org, I figured I'd throw that out there. And we have discussed on this program, since I happen to be a

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Calvinist, anybody who knows me or knows the program, that is probably one of the first things they think of, is the fact that I am a die -hard, dyed -in -the -wool, thoroughgoing, unapologetic, unabashed, five -point

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Calvinist, and I have brought up the subject and have interviewed on this program guests who have dealt with and focused on the subject of unconditional election before, but I think this is specifically the first time we've addressed it from a unique perspective, and that is the history of the

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Anglican Church, and even more specifically from the viewpoint of the great hero of the

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English Reformation that unfortunately is very rarely discussed outside of Anglicanism, and even more specifically outside of Reformed Anglicanism.

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I'm speaking of Thomas Cranmer, somebody that should be viewed as a hero not merely by Anglicans, but on anyone who loves the gospel of the

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Reformation, whether you are an Anglican, a Reformed Baptist, a

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Presbyterian, a Congregationalist, a Dutch Reformed Christian, or whatever branch of the

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Reformation you claim to be an heir from, people should get to know more about Thomas Cranmer, and after this show's over,

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I strongly urge you to go to the Iron Sherpa's Iron website and click on past shows, podcasts, and then in the search engine type in Cranmer, C -R -A -N as in Nebraska, M as in Mary, E -R,

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Cranmer, the N goes before the M just like Cranberry, the

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N goes before the B in Cranberry, but that might enable you to remember how to spell it because I have frequently misspelled

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Cranmer, putting the M first by mistake, the M as in Mary first by mistake, but he is a fascinating figure from church history.

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Before we go into the more specific role of Cranmer and the structuring of the

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Reformed Church of England and the Book of Common Prayer that you are going to be deriving some of your information from today, please, if you could, define unconditional election for our listeners, especially for the sake of those who are outside of our theological circles and may not be completely familiar with the term, or they may completely misunderstand it because they've been told slanderous things about it that don't even resemble the truth of history or scripture.

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Well, of course, I'd like to think of election, predestination, however, for ordination, however it is signified as electing love.

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The idea being that all those whom God saves and brings to himself have been chosen in Christ before creation.

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I know that there's no, well, I won't go into the nature of time and eternity, but it does mean that before we were born, before we existed, we were already favorably considered in the mind of God as those who are his chosen ones, his elect, and that means that through his gospel, the general call of the gospel, another call, an effectual call, reaches the heart and mind of those who hear, who are among Christ's chosen ones, the ones the father gave to him and promised to him as a consequence of his redemptive work.

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The elect are already secure in the divine intention to express electing love to them when it's

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God's time of choosing through the means that he selects. It means that we have this,

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I think of it more in a pastoral sense and certainly not a speculative sense, it means that we were in the mind of God from all eternity, cherished, desired, and it was

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God's intent to draw us to himself through his son and to prepare us through a life of trial and suffering and labor for an affinity with God so that we are compatible with his nature, made holy, and can dwell with him everlastingly.

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So this election proceeds any response from us. It gives us the capacity to respond to the invitation of Christ.

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It promises us a new heart, a new will, a new mind that makes the desire of Christ genuine within us.

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And so we are called to faith which brings us into a real and actual union with the

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Savior. So we're chosen in Christ, we are associated with him from all eternity in the purpose of God, in time we are called, throughout our life on earth we are preserved, and when our life comes to its conclusion as whatever time

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God has allotted to us, we are secure in that eternal love forever and ever without end.

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Amen. And one of the reasons why we who are

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Reformed and Calvinists use the term unconditional election is because of the one of the very reasons that you mentioned in your description that this divine election, this predestination occurs before any thought, action, response from the human, whereas those who are outside of the

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Reformed faith who believe nonetheless in the inerrancy of Scripture, they have anywhere from an expertise to a cursory knowledge of the

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Scripture or somewhere in between, they know that election and predestination are in the

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Bible, they know that this is something that is taught there, but they according to us obviously are incorrect in the way that they exegete those passages, but they believe for the most part that God elects people by the condition or because of the condition that those who he knows will in the future have faith in him and believe in him and follow him, and so it is one of those situations where they believe

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God is looking through the corridors of time and since most outside the

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Reformed faith, with the exception of some heretics that believe in what is known as open theism, they believe that God knows all things in the future and it is on the basis of that knowledge that he chooses some and bypasses others, but we who are

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Reformed believe that the Bible does not teach that at all and that would mean that men were electing

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God and not the other way around. Does that make sense what I just said, Roger? Absolutely, Chris.

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It's not due to anything whatsoever, any qualification or potential within the elect ones.

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It's nothing to do with our personality or anything that we happen to be.

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It is, in fact, we're in solidarity with a sinful world and the election separates us from that world and calls us out, so it is a love that from our point of view has no cause.

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The cause is in the mind of God and there's nothing in us that attracts him and there's no possibility of merit or desert on our part.

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It is purely the choice of God in his own sovereign will to call out certain people for himself and therefore,

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Chris is using the right term, it is unconditional, it is free, it is sovereign, but it is beautiful because it is the wonderful expression of divine mercy and compassion in his

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Son, Jesus Christ. Well, I'm going to give out our email address for the sake of those who are listening who would like to send in a question to Roger Salter about anything in regard to the

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Anglican Church. We will broaden the spectrum of the subject matter on which we welcome you to join us in the conversation, but we would be especially pleased if you were to send in questions specifically on the doctrine of unconditional election and how it ties in with the history of the

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Anglican Church and specifically with Archbishop Thomas Cranmer, who was the

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Archbishop under the reign of King Henry VIII, although, and I believe

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I may have asked you this before, but I think it bears repeating, the world -renowned

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Anglican scholar who is a Thomas Cranmer scholar, Ashley Null, who is teaching in Berlin.

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I have interviewed him a number of times, and that would include discussions on Cranmer, since he has actually written on Cranmer, but he said that it is clearly evident from history that although Cranmer was

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King Henry VIII's Archbishop, he did not view Henry as a regenerate

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Christian until his deathbed, when he asked Henry if he believed in justification by faith alone to squeeze his hand, and Henry did, and Cranmer embraced that as a reason to have confidence and hope that Henry finally had his eyes opened by the sovereign grace of God and became a born -again believer before departing this earth.

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So, would you share that account as being valid? Absolutely, Chris, I think it's a wonderful story, and it affects me deeply, and I can add to that by John Woodgift, who was

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Queen Elizabeth's chaplain when he was Archbishop of Canterbury. The same thing occurred with him when

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Elizabeth was dying, and she too had lost the power of speech, and Woodgift said to her, my lady, if you are trusting in the blood -shedding alone, the shed blood of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, squeeze my hand, and she did. So, that kind of thing happened twice, and I think it's a beautiful link between the father, the king, and Elizabeth, his daughter, the great

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Protestant queen. Delightful stories. And it's also interesting, fascinating to me, that Cranmer, before his act of cowardice when

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Rome ascended into power again after the death of King Henry VIII, where Cranmer denied the faith, but later, thankfully, he recanted his recantation, and bravely marched to his own execution, and told the executioner to thrust his hand into the flames first, the very hand that signed his recantation of Reformed theology, which he did initially as an act of cowardice.

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But it's interesting that before that, Cranmer was so dedicated to the truth that he very boldly structured the

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Church of England, and clearly taught, and including in his 39 articles of religion, made it clear that he believed in the

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Reformed faith, and believed that that is the biblical faith, and believed that should be the faith of Anglicanism, even though Henry was, for all intents and purposes, a

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Roman Catholic in his theology at the time, other than his denial of the primacy of the

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Pope, obviously, because that was the key area of his departure from Rome, was that he wanted no one above him in authority.

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Am I explaining things correctly here? Yes, and I think there were a number of conversations between Cranmer and Henry over the matter of election, which is quite interesting.

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And when he was craving, in a sense, cowardly, who wouldn't be facing, you know, the stake, the fire of, you know, that was going to take your life,

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I think the fact that he recounted, and then recounted again, made his confession at the stake immensely more powerful, and as if he hadn't, you know, withdrawn his, he didn't mean to withdraw.

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He'd been, for months, under the pressure of punishing the prisoners and harsh prison conditions.

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He'd seen his colleagues burnt at the stake. They really weakened him terribly, and that was intentional, because they knew if they could conquer

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Cranmer's will, they could do a great deal to impede the progress of the

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English Reformation. Well, we have a listener question, and I think that he really asked some excellent questions that I would have asked myself to begin our specific questioning on Cranmer's views on predestination.

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We have Donald, Donald from Jacksonville, North Carolina, and he has a somewhat humorous, but even,

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I would say, a very true sentiment that he signs off his email with that I would say a hearty amen to.

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He says, make Reformed theology great again. Then he adds something that would be near and dear to your heart as an

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Anglican, make old prayer book churchmanship great again, and then he has, make Anglican cathedral tradition music great again.

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Yes, yes, and I think I have an idea as to who Don is. Well, I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I gave his full name,

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Donald Philip Veitch, and I may be mispronouncing his last name. Absolutely, we attended a nationally known lecture here together in Birmingham a couple of years ago.

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Oh, wow. It's lovely to hear from Don. Most encouraging and refreshing.

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Well, he opens up by asking, looking for Dr. Cranmer's explicit views on predestination.

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Yes. Could I have permission from you, Chris, if we tackle this throughout the course of this interview, not all in one go, but if I divide the article 17 on predestination and election from the confession at the back of the prayer book.

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Sure. If I could read each paragraph. Oh, yeah, definitely. And comment on it. I mean,

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I don't want to in any way steer things away from what you might have in mind.

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No, you are by far more of an expert, especially since I'm not an expert at all on this subject, so I believe that you should take the reins here.

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And obviously, our Anglican listeners are going to be most interested in the connection to the prayer book.

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And in fact, perhaps you could even, before citing it from the prayer book, explain exactly what prayer book churchmanship is.

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Why is the prayer book so important to you? And I know that it even has caused division from those that shared

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Anglican roots and so on. But if you could. I mean, the articles especially are now regarded as museum pieces by the majority of contemporary

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Anglicans, but it was intended to be a confession of faith. And I think

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I might be right in saying that it was the first written Protestant confession of faith.

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And from that emerged the Irish confession under Archbishop Usher.

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And the Irish confession was the template, for the

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Westminster confession. But Dermot McCulloch is the other great expert on Cranmer as a historian.

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He makes it obvious he doesn't agree with Cranmer, but he is very honest in declaring the kind of man and the kind of faith that Cranmer had.

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And in a book of essays, All Things Made New, he has said this on page 276 about Cranmer.

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His theology was structured by predestination, a theological concept which

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Anglicanism has on the whole decided to treat with caution. And so he would have been shocked by the idea of a via media between Roman Protestantism.

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He was somebody who was thoroughly reformed, a correspondent with Calvin, and like Calvin, equally committed to the doctrine of predestination.

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And maybe that bears a little bit of clarification or explanation. Yes. The via media or via media, depending upon where you live, how to pronounce that, the middle way.

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Some would say that's specifically talking about an effort to appease polar opposites within Anglicanism, both those on the

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Romish side and those on the evangelical side. And others would have said that the more correct way to view the via or via media is between Lutheranism and Calvinism.

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But you are specifically addressing the middle way approach by many

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Anglicans when it comes to the extreme differences on the

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Romish or Oxford movement side and the evangelical side. Yes, that's the popular misconception.

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And it's certainly totally alien to where Cranmer would have been. But can

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I just read two or three little quotes from the Ahmaud Collection on Cranmer?

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Yes, of course. Okay. While you're looking it up,

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I'm going to repeat our email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. By the way,

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Donald, our listener who sent in the question from North Carolina, has corrected me in my pronunciation.

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His last name is pronounced Veatch. I'm ready,

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Chris. Okay, go ahead. He's talking about, you know, radicals and conservatives, etc.,

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within the Church of England. And I'll just read the crucial quote from this large paragraph.

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This may be a cause of embarrassment to later commentators who do not wish to see

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Cranmer as he was. But Thomas Cranmer, theologian without the doctrine of predestination, is

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Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark. So that's pretty straightforward.

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Amen. Yeah. And then going back to some earlier pages, uh, here we are.

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Complimenting his exposition of the mature Augustine was also the proposition which had been present in Cranmer's arguments with Henry VIII in 1538, predestination.

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In the end, in the 1540s, Cranmer could make the marginal comment on his excerpts from Augustine that no one of the predestined can perish, and no one not predestined can be saved.

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Again, in a comment soon afterwards, any tie between human merit and source of human fate is cut.

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God gives grace, not because we deserve it, but because he wishes to. The pen's small, so it's a bit difficult for me to read it clearly,

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Chris. But there we are. There are two quotes from McDermott on the predestinationism of Cranmer, and I don't need to read any more,

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I think, to make it clear that that's where he stood. And later on in the book, it's said that he was one with Calvin in that doctrine of predestination.

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They wrote to each other, they were in cordial relationship via correspondence.

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So our church, and I'll say it, is Calvinistic by constitution.

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Calvinism in the broadest sense, not just following Calvin, but all those who were exponents of sovereign grace.

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And so Cranmer is somebody who has strong convictions theologically, but he was very cautious.

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He pondered things for a great deal of time. People thought he was slow, if not a bit dull.

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But when he came to a conclusion, he stuck to it. And in that way, he's a very good guide for Anglican theology, even though during the time of the rise of Anglo -Catholicism, the knowledge of Cranmer was suppressed deliberately.

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Hooker was elevated to being the great founder and organizer of Anglicanism, but he was

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Calvinistic too, and that's often denied by people who look to Hooker. He was as Calvinistic as Cranmer and Calvin, just a little more cautious and guarded in the way he expressed his conviction.

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But if I read the first paragraph, if there's time, Chris, of the article on predestination and election, that might arouse some comments or questions from people, but it's very scriptural, and it's commended very highly by Archbishop Ryle as what he thinks is the wisest way of expressing this doctrine.

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So it says, predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby before the foundations of the world were laid, he hath constantly decreed by his counsel, secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honor.

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Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose, by his

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Spirit, working in due season. They through grace obey the calling, they be justified freely, they be made sons of God by adoption, they be made like the image of his only begotten

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Son, Jesus Christ, they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

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First paragraph. In fact, we have to go to our first break right now, and we'll pick up right where you left off.

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If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, we still have a couple of questions from Donald in Jacksonville, North Carolina, that I'd like to read to you.

31:44

They're so good that I didn't want to skip any of them. But if any of you would like to join

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Donald on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

31:57

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

32:02

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back with more of Roger Salter, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

40:22

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

40:27

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

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God's design and once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

40:44

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.

40:53

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

41:00

God like the psalmist did. May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

41:07

Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Armstead, your host of Winetrope and Zion Radio and we have as our guest today for the full program

41:17

Reverend Roger Salter, Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

41:24

We are addressing the theme unconditional election and the little known fact that Anglican martyr

41:30

Thomas Cranmer structured the Reformed Church of England on divine predestination. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

41:39

chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you have a question for Roger on this or a broader spectrum of issues involving

41:50

Anglicanism, Calvinism, etc. and our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

41:59

Always give us a first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

42:04

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own pastor over what we are discussing or you yourself are a pastor or a rector of a church and you disagree with majority in your own congregation or your fellow elders or your bishop or however that would work.

42:26

We understand that you would not want to draw attention to your identity so you may feel free to remain anonymous but if it's a general question please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

42:36

Before I return to a couple of more of Donald Veitch's questions.

42:43

Donald Veitch from Jacksonville North Carolina who's written some excellent questions here that are very pertinent to the discussion since he is an

42:54

Anglican also. If you could let our listeners know because a lot of Anglican buzzwords, buzz phrases, vocabulary is totally foreign to those outside of Anglicanism.

43:13

So exactly what is the prayer book and why do many Anglicans get so passionate over which prayer book you use?

43:24

Well it's a big question Chris. I want to go back to a memory

43:31

I have of being in London in the National Portrait Gallery a couple of years ago and there's a huge portrait of Thomas Cranmer and he's sitting by a table and there are two books on that table and one is the

43:49

New Testament and the other is a writing of Saint Augustine. And if you look at Saint Augustine and the legion of people who followed

44:03

Augustine's teaching on the doctrine of grace prior to the Reformation and then the

44:08

Reformation itself was the resurgence of pure Augustinianism, you will find that the whole of that prayer book is fashioned on the basis of electing love, the sovereign love and mercy of God which means that we have total reliance upon him, total trust in him, an immense gratitude to him and our prayer book cultivates a deep love for God when we consider his free mercy.

44:41

We don't think of election so much as in the negative, what's happening to those who are non -elect, we realize that if there was no election at all none of us would come to Christ because of our evil nature and our will captive to sin and under the dominion of Satan it is the nature of man to hate

45:02

God and Christ. So if there were not an election we must work on the basis of grace, the love of God which is gracious towards us and causes us by inclining our will, by bending our will to desire the

45:20

Lord Jesus Christ in all his beauty and holiness and mercy and so all of this comes through in the content of the liturgy in our prayer book, especially our colleagues, the special prayer for each

45:34

Sunday they are all showing our total reliance upon God, then delineating those features of God's character that cause us to call upon this wonderful and merciful

45:49

God and then that affirmation of what God has promised he will give to those who seek him.

45:56

The whole of the liturgy has that leaning, that color, that it is emphasizing our total dependence upon the mercy of a sovereign

46:09

God who has invited us to call upon him for mercy. We have no claim upon him whatsoever, no room for negotiation but he has given us the grounds and even if I can put it this way the arguments to present to him as to why his mercy will be bestowed upon us, we are utterly utterly reliant upon his grace.

46:34

Everything in the liturgy presses home that wonderful truth, that fundamental truth and then we have what is called the ordinal, how ministers are ordained to the service of the gospel and what their calling is and the warrant they have for fulfilling it which is to preach the word of God as it is and to counter everything that runs in opposition to the word of God.

47:01

The fundamental call of the Anglican minister is to preach the word of God and then finally we have our confession of faith, the 39 articles.

47:12

These are our constitutional documents, they're all bound together in one volume which for convenience we call the book of common prayer but they're all anchored in the doctrines of scripture.

47:25

We could say to narrow the definition down a bit, they're all thoroughly

47:31

Pauline which is not to exclude all the other contributors to sacred writ and they are all affirmations of what

47:40

Augustine stood for in his time. Somebody said it was

47:49

Paul who wrote these doctrines and Augustine who heard them and he conserved them and presented them to the church, preserved them so that the people of God could follow the doctor of grace as Augustine is known in his loyalty to these truths and the immense comfort they bring.

48:15

It's a pastoral doctrine not something for speculation because it can only be discerned in Christ and our relationship with him.

48:24

We are chosen in Christ not because we come to him but because he has come to us at the bidding of the father, called us to himself.

48:35

He thanks the father for giving us to him and now he bestows redemption upon us day after day as he brings us nearer to our eternal dwelling with the lord.

48:47

So these are the three parts of the book of common prayer. They are very biblical.

48:53

The worship is usually, and I couldn't say what percentage, I'll say 80 percent because that would be modest, it is scripture adapted to public worship.

49:04

And do the origins would also find their root in Cranmer as well? And of course

49:09

I know that you believe that there are biblical roots in this in regard to the teaching but as far as the human roots of the book of common prayer?

49:20

Did you say Jews? Oh I said Cranmer. Yes. Is Cranmer the author of the original book of common prayer?

49:29

No, he took a lot of the prayers from the monastic services from, you know, those times prior to the reformation, adapted them to act exactly fit the gospel and the word of God.

49:46

These are the heritage that great and godly people have left to us and Cranmer has adapted it and reshaped it but he also had great skills in the theology.

49:56

But he compiled it. Yes, he compiled it. And why is there such passion in regard to which book of common prayer, which year, which revision people use?

50:10

There seems to be sharp disagreement among Anglicans in this regard. Yes, some of the revisions dilute the doctrines of grace, the teaching of scripture.

50:23

They, I think, evacuate the liturgy of the strong biblical content of Cranmer.

50:33

When you read Cranmer, it is strong, it is biblical, it is stirring, it is encouraging.

50:40

It captures the heart because it's true and, sorry, something's just come up on my phone.

50:48

It distracted me. But the love for the prayer book is, again, not some form of bibliolatry, but because it confirms so much with scripture and is a companion and a guide and a pastoral source of comfort and strength, resistance to temptation, inducements to holiness.

51:12

Now, which prayer book do you use as far as the year? If you were to ask somebody, which prayer book does your

51:20

Anglican congregation use, what would bring a smile to your face in regard to the answer? Well, you know, after years, when

51:28

I didn't like 1662, when I was at college, I hated going to chapel when we were doing

51:34

Cranmer. And I always liked the alternative service book, the 1980 modern version at the time.

51:41

Over the years, and particularly as one continues to do what every ordained Anglican is meant to do is to go through the service of morning prayer every morning,

51:52

I have grown so accustomed and so wedded to Cranmer because of the strength and truth of his liturgy.

52:00

So that's my favorite. But I realize that in these days, people need an introduction, if they want it, to liturgical worship.

52:10

And we use the prayer book, Preservation Society's contemporary version of 1662.

52:18

We have to go to our midway break right now. And if you want to just pick up where you left off, that'd be fine when we return. And if you'd like to ask

52:25

Roger Salter a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

52:31

Please be patient with us as this is our longer than normal break in the middle of the program, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

52:39

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break so that they can air their public service announcements and other things in the middle of the show, which is a requirement of the

52:48

FCC to localize this show to Lake City, Florida. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Roger Salter after this station break.

52:56

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01:12:22

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Roger Salter, the rector of St.

01:12:29

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. And before we return to our discussion with Roger on unconditional election and the little -known fact that Anglican martyr

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Thomas Cranmer structured the Reformed Church of England on divine predestination, before we return to that interview, we just have some important announcements to make.

01:12:52

First of all, I hope that you, if you are able to get to Scranton, Pennsylvania on the 28th and 29th of August, Friday and Saturday, the 28th and 29th of August, I hope that you will join me at the

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High Point Baptist Church, which is in Larksville, Pennsylvania, a suburb of Scranton.

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I hope that you will join me there for the conference being conducted by ACBC, which stands for the

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Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. This is a conference that is being led by Dale Johnson, the executive director of ACBC.

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And I am looking forward to manning an exhibitor's booth there for Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

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So I hope that you attend and that you greet me at the booth if you are there. The theme of the conference is the basics of biblical counseling.

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And the lectures that Dale Johnson will be giving include such subjects as the need for biblical counseling, the definition and goal of biblical counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a biblical counselor, secular and integration theories, and what makes biblical counseling biblical.

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There will also be a Q &A session with the audience. So you will be able to have your own voices heard and your own questions answered.

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And by the way, I had a really wonderful time interviewing Dale Johnson yesterday on this program.

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So if you go to the archive after this show is over at irontrumpandzionradio .com, you can go to the podcast past shows section.

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If you type in the search engine there, Dale Johnson, D -A -L -E,

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Johnson, that interview will come up. I really highly recommend it. So I hope you join me

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Friday night and Saturday all day until 5 p .m. That's Friday, August 28th and Saturday, August 29th at the

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High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania.

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And if you want more details on this event, there are two websites you can go to.

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First is biblicalcounseling .com forward slash scranton -pa -training.

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That's biblicalcounseling .com forward slash s -c -r -a -n -t -o -n -p -a -training.

01:15:48

And you can also go to High Point Baptist Church's website, which is the venue for this event, highpointbaptist .church,

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highpointbaptist .church. Also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, we need your support financially in an urgent way.

01:16:07

We lost our two largest financial supporters. I'm hoping it's just temporary, but we don't know that for certain.

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click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing so.

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So, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Roger Salter, the rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

01:20:01

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com and today we are addressing

01:20:06

Unconditional Election and its role in church history of the Church of England and I just want to give a shout out to those listening to this program via live streaming on the

01:20:21

Twis House Facebook page. I don't know if I'm mispronouncing that name,

01:20:27

Twis House or Tweese House, T -W -I -S -S -E House, but all of you are listening.

01:20:33

My greetings to you. I hope you are being blessed by the program and Roger, if you want to pick up where you left off, that's fine, but we can continue on how important the doctrine of Unconditional Election is, the doctrine of divine predestination is to the history of Anglicanism and I'll ask one more for now, perhaps

01:20:57

I'll return to Donald Veitch's questions from Jacksonville, North Carolina, but he's written so many that I want to give others an opportunity to have their questions asked, but if we have time later

01:21:10

I'll return to some of Donald's questions, but I do want to ask one more question by him because I think it is a matter of great controversy in the body of Christ and even among Reformed Christians.

01:21:24

Donald asks, did Dr. Ashley Knoll actively affirm, and I think he probably meant does

01:21:32

Dr. Ashley Knoll actively affirm, because he's still with us as far as I know, does

01:21:38

Dr. Ashley Knoll actively affirm that Cramner affirmed double predestination?

01:21:45

I happen to be an unabashed, unwaveringly proud, if you will, believer in double predestination, but not necessarily the caricature or slanderously false version of it that people have conjured up in their minds or developed by reading the writings of enemies of Calvinism who misunderstand what double predestination means, but does

01:22:12

Ashley Knoll affirm that Cramner affirmed double predestination? Hello, Chris.

01:22:20

I don't really know where Ashley stands on that particular issue. Well, how about your understanding of Cramner?

01:22:28

Did he believe in double predestination? I think inevitably you have to in some form.

01:22:34

Yeah, I know. If there's an election, a choice of people out of the mass of humanity, then it's obviously there's a passing by of others.

01:22:47

It's how you define it. Many have wrongly equated double predestination with equal ultimacy, where God is actively intervening on both sides of the spectrum, whereas if he did not intervene, we as Reformed Christians believe he must actively intervene to regenerate those who are lost in their sin and formed from the same lump of clay that the reprobate and the pagans are.

01:23:23

He needs to miraculously and actively intervene in their lives and change their hearts, whereas those who are lost, he does not need to do that, hereby a denial of equal ultimacy.

01:23:34

He does not need to do anything but leave people in their damned condition that they already find themselves in from the moment of their conception.

01:23:43

So would I be right in that way of kind of distinguishing the true and false understanding? Yes, I think we have to say obviously

01:23:52

God is not the author of evil or sin. That is a product of fallen humanity under the inspiration of the evil one who dominates those who are not reborn.

01:24:07

God restrains much of that evil. He adapts evil to his own purposes.

01:24:14

That's how ingenious he is. He can bring so much good out of that which is ill -intended or disastrous.

01:24:22

I think here in Handley I have Jim Packer's little volume,

01:24:28

Concise Theology. I think for me, gosh

01:24:36

I'm not going to give a personal anecdote because I'm almost tempted to. You can feel free to.

01:24:44

Well ever so quickly Chris, when I came to a knowledge of the doctrines of grace it was through reading

01:24:52

Robert Murray McShane and after that reading George Whitefield.

01:24:59

And the two ministers I'm thinking of are no longer alive and they lived in another continent.

01:25:07

I remember once we were going to visit a couple. The errand was a matter of church discipline.

01:25:17

It was an illicit relationship and I was sitting in the back of the car and I heard these two ministers say, it looks as though this pair are reprobates.

01:25:31

And I was horrified at that suggestion because as Jim Packer says, those who are not chosen for salvation through Christ are faceless.

01:25:43

And he says we should view all persons we meet as possibly being numbered among the elect.

01:25:51

That is why I say I think, and this is not to tone down predestination at all,

01:25:57

I have worked my way through things like superlapsarianism and infralapsarianism and speculated on election.

01:26:06

I think you can only speak safely about it in terms of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

01:26:13

And it is looking to him in which you find the encouragement of your own election.

01:26:21

Nothing to do with us, nothing to do with philosophy or science or any form of human speculation.

01:26:29

You only understand election in the light of Christ. And as Calvin says,

01:26:35

Jesus is in his face that we see our election because you know within yourself that your confidence is placed in him and your love is directed towards him.

01:26:52

And as Sproul said, no unregenerate person can genuinely or honestly express any love towards the

01:27:04

Lord Jesus. I think speaking about reprobation in very positive terms can be very harsh, very dismissive, very dangerous.

01:27:17

It has to be a fact because if they are elect, they are a non -elect.

01:27:22

But I'll read this little portion from Jim Packer in his concise theology. Reprobation is the name given to God's eternal decision regarding those sinners whom he has not chosen for life.

01:27:38

His decision is in essence a decision not to change them. The elect are destined to be changed but to leave them to sin as in their hearts they already want to do.

01:27:51

In one sense, if I'm not misunderstood, election means that everyone gets what they want.

01:27:57

Sinners don't want Christ. They don't want God. They want their sin and that's what they're left to.

01:28:03

That's their preference. That is the nature of their of the desire of their hearts.

01:28:09

And believers get what they want because they're given a new heart, a desire for Christ, a love for him.

01:28:16

So he says this is what they want to do to sin and finally to judge them as they deserve for what they have done.

01:28:26

And so when in particular instances God gives them over to their sins, removes restraints on their doing the disobedient things they desire, this itself is the beginning of judgment.

01:28:40

It is called hardening and it inevitably leads to greater guilt. I think to speak of to even begin to speculate as to whether anybody living is reprobate is contrary to the grace of the doctrine of electing love.

01:29:01

You know I think of Spurgeon's expression, Lord save the elect and save more.

01:29:08

We're not to speculate about numbers or arithmetic in this matter. It is purely grace of God given to us undeservedly through the merits of Christ.

01:29:20

The sovereign choice of God and the non -elect are simply left to themselves.

01:29:27

I do not think that God raises any impediment to men coming to him because they've got enough impediments in themselves.

01:29:36

So election doesn't hinder anyone from coming to the Lord. It ensures that some do.

01:29:44

I have strangely enough a Methodist who is very strong on election, the great

01:29:50

English Old Testament scholar Norman Snaith, and he says the gospel goes out to all.

01:29:57

That is an act of grace. The gospel is a sincere invitation to trust in God for salvation.

01:30:04

By nature no one will positively answer that invitation. And so God says, and this is speaking in human terms, all right

01:30:15

I'll send out a second wave of grace and this will ensure that those

01:30:20

I have called and chosen from eternity will respond. And that's an effectual call.

01:30:26

I very much fear what can happen in causing discouragement, even mental illness in people who hear the gospel, sensitive people, people with inferiority complexes or illnesses or some sort of, you know, mental flaw will easily, under the influence of the evil one, conclude that they're non -elect.

01:30:54

And the whole point of election is to say God has chosen people, you come to Christ and you will be saved.

01:31:03

And as J .C. Ryle says, and I quickly flip the page, because it is a real problem.

01:31:11

I know there's reprobation, I know there are people who are left to their own devices, but that's what they want.

01:31:18

But Ryle says the Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not elect, but because they neglect the great salvation and because they will not repent and believe.

01:31:32

It's by their own will that they consign themselves to abandonment and perdition.

01:31:38

That's me making this comment. The last judgment will abundantly prove that it's not the want of God's election so much as laziness, the love of sin, unbelief, and unwillingness to come to Christ.

01:31:53

And that is what ruins the souls of those who are lost. There is no way in which we can attribute anything cruel or unkind or sinful or unjust to the merciful

01:32:08

God. And I think sometimes our speculation about election is attached just to a little bit of pride and moral superiority which characterize the

01:32:20

Pharisee's attitude to election. We are somehow different and better than others.

01:32:27

Election is an encouragement to people. I would say that if God left me to myself

01:32:32

I would be doomed forever. But he wouldn't let me pursue my own free will towards damnation or sin or gratification in sin.

01:32:43

He put a barrier in my way. He put fear into my heart. He put delight in the

01:32:49

Savior into my mind as I grew more accustomed to thinking about him and more deeply acquainted with him.

01:32:56

Yes it is God who stops us in our tracks and claims us for himself. But the others are left to themselves.

01:33:04

That is God's decision. It's a very definite decision but no one should use it as an excuse or a reason for not coming to Christ and trusting in him.

01:33:16

We are called to look upon him just as Israel looked to the brazen serpent on the pole.

01:33:22

Just look up in our need with our poisonous nature that the venom that the evil one has implanted in our hearts by his deceit of our first parents and with that awareness of our lostness our sinfulness turn to the one who takes upon himself our evil and bears the consequences of it and delivers and liberates our hearts for the knowledge and joy in God.

01:33:50

So I'm not in any way disagreeing with double predestination in a certain sense.

01:33:56

It's logically unavoidable. But I don't think we put a lot of emphasis on it just as the

01:34:03

Bible doesn't. The Bible stresses our sinfulness and wickedness in history.

01:34:09

Our persistence in sinfulness and our bearing the consequences of that false and fatal choice to just muddle along in our own ridiculous lostness blindness wickedness.

01:34:27

We do have an anonymous listener and this is a good opportunity to remind our listeners if you intend to remain anonymous or desire to remain anonymous please put anonymous either in the subject line or in the very first word of your email or both.

01:34:49

This individual has in the very last word after signing off anonymous but I most of the time do not read the questions that are submitted to me until I get them and I read them live on the air for the first time.

01:35:06

I usually don't have a chance to look them over first. So thankfully for this person

01:35:11

I was able to read it before I read it on the air

01:35:17

I should say. But this anonymous listener says is it too simple to ask if election corresponds to our first birth in that as uncooperative in that birth as we were that also is being born again are we as unable?

01:35:38

So I've heard that analogy before. That I think is perhaps even more specifically addressing regeneration or the rebirth but it is still pertinent to election because we are not involved in our election in any way shape or form other than being the subject of God's election the ones being elected we don't participate in that.

01:36:08

We don't. I mean regeneration being born from above is a sovereign act of God.

01:36:15

We don't cooperate within it at all just as that person says we don't collaborate with our parents in our first birth.

01:36:23

It is something that God does. It is um I'm trying to think of the term and it won't come to me

01:36:30

Chris but it's solely God's work. It's instant. Monergism I think you're probably thinking of.

01:36:37

Sorry? Monergism. Thank you absolutely. I mean there's no doubt about the new birth being that.

01:36:45

That's why and I'll say the name I thought Billy Graham's gospel car to be born again was misnamed because we don't make ourselves born again.

01:36:55

We don't even desire it. We don't even know what the kingdom of God is before we're regenerate as John says in chapter three of his gospel.

01:37:04

It is purely a work of God and uh you know

01:37:10

I think that concern over this matter concern over predestination as Luther said is a good sign.

01:37:18

It's not proof that we're born again but it is proof that the Holy Spirit is convicting us of something in the area of divine truth and so um yes being born again is entirely of God's choice the spirit's operation.

01:37:36

We receive new birth. We don't in any way make a contribution to it.

01:37:42

By the way Anonymous and also Donald from Jacksonville North Carolina you have both won by virtue of being first -time questioners you both won a new free

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New American Standard Bible so please give me your full mailing addresses and we'll have cvbbs .com

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com will ship a copy of the

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New American Standard Bible to each of you as long as you provide me with your full mailing address.

01:38:20

Let's see here we have another listener. We have

01:38:26

Bruce in Hoover Alabama. Yes hello

01:38:31

Bruce. Oh so you know Bruce. I do know Bruce. And uh

01:38:36

Bruce asks now uh this is another question that I had a chance to to glimpse at before reading it.

01:38:45

I think it's this would take a very long time to answer this question but he says is there clear delineation between Christian denominations on unconditional election in other words which denominations claim to believe it and which denominations state that they do not.

01:39:04

I would say and I have a feeling you would agree with me that sadly and tragically although this was not the case historically the vast majority of Protestantism and Evangelicalism today rejects uh reform theology and specifically unconditional election in varying degrees.

01:39:24

Some believe that it's a curiosity that's that should be left to the the closed libraries and studies of intellectuals sitting there in their leather chairs drinking snifters of brandy and smoking cigars or others believe it's something that makes them foam at the mouth and spit fire because they hate the this teaching so much.

01:39:51

But would you agree that as I believe from my own experience uh that the vast majority of those that identify as Christian today reject unconditional election and Calvinism although there are it's on the rise it is in the rise not only in a good form but also in a bad form and a non -historical form but um uh at one time

01:40:17

Protestantism was dominated by it but it seems that we are a tiny minority would you agree with that?

01:40:24

I would think so on the whole uh Chris um it's it's a tragic situation

01:40:31

I think there are some believers who have heard caricatured versions of election and have concerns about that and probably in their heart of hearts actually function as if they do they rely utterly on God and on Christ what they have heard are distorted presentations of election because as we say election stops no one from coming to Christ what stops them is their own obduracy their own sinfulness

01:41:03

I've got something here that bears on this particular issue from Leon Morris in fact could you could you read a quote from Leon when we return from our final break because we've got to go to the final yes don't forget about uh that quote and we're going to our final break if you'd like to join us our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:41:23

don't go away we'll be right back with more of Roger Salter after these messages from our sponsors Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

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Do you not, brother? Absolutely. Absolutely, Chris. And just don't forget that, folks.

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Solid -Ground -Books .com. You were about to quote Leon Morris, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, just ever so quickly.

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It's a reference to the elect, the New Testament scholar. He says, the idea of being chosen points to God's saving act.

01:55:07

Men do not elect or choose themselves. There is, in the essential meaning of the words, the thought of divine initiative.

01:55:15

Unless God chooses to intervene and make some men his own, none will ever be saved.

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There is a tendency in some recent writing to minimize the significance of election.

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It is not surprising that in a man -centered age, some writers put their emphasis on what men may be expected to do.

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The term may be retained, but its meaning torches out of all recognition.

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It must be insisted upon that the gospels speak of an election in which God, not man, is sovereign.

01:55:51

Amen. By the way, just for matters of clarification, since the folks at either

01:55:58

Twiss or Tweese House have joined us today by live streaming this interview on their

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Facebook page, the 17th century preacher from the Church of England, William Twiss, is it

01:56:11

Twiss or Tweese? I would say Twiss. Twiss, okay. Me.

01:56:17

I'm sorry? That's my pronunciation. I've never heard him referred to apart from reading about him.

01:56:26

Okay. Well, I want to make sure that you have now about two minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air.

01:56:36

Ever so quickly then, I'll do it rapidly. Press the second paragraph of the 17th article,

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The Consolation of Election, as the godly consideration of predestination and our election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the

01:56:58

Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members, and this is a bit

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I love, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God.

01:57:22

Praise God. Well, Roger, if you could please hold on the line after we go off the air, because I definitely want to have you back again very soon.

01:57:32

I want to schedule another interview with you, and I have a feeling that many of our listeners are echoing my sentiments here, and would love to have you back.

01:57:44

I just want to remind our listeners that if you want to find out more about Roger and his ministry at St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, you can go to stmanglican .weebly

01:58:00

.com. That's STM, which stands for St. Matthew's. stmanglican .weebly

01:58:08

.com. You can also go to rogerssalter .com

01:58:14

as well, and I just want to thank you for being such a superb, informed guest, and I want to thank everybody who listened today, and I hope that you all remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

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Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.