October 23, 2008

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife.

And good afternoon good evening, whatever time it is where you are It's actually closer to evening than normal for me. I am NOT in the studios in Phoenix I'm not sure. I'm really gonna mention where I am right now actually, but this is the first dividing line We've attempted to do via Skype.

Yes, indeed. That's what we're doing Today, we have done dividing lines in the past over the phone. I didn't enjoy them very much But we we have done them and that was back when we were paying big bucks to A radio station for one hour's worth of time So we figured better do it and I don't know that we've done much in the way of remote dividing lines since We went to the webcast format and we did that quite some time ago actually, so This is definitely a first but from what we have tested today now remember Testing electronic equipment is not the same thing as using electronic equipment.

That's been my experience. You can test things a lot and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to actually work but we tested My ability to continue to play sound files here over the connection and It worked.

So I have some sound files a queued up. We will continue looking at the Madrid debate and Lord willing we can take your phone calls, too. We have one online and there are others at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I'm actually gonna have to remember that now.

Since I only have that little cheat sheet Taped up on the wall, but how many times have I said that who knows but we will take your phone calls as well. So Thanks for being with us today on the program.

And if you do end up hearing anything odd in the background just ignore it. Because I really can't control my environment completely here Where I am at least 2 ,000 miles away from where I normally am so it is amazing what?

Technology allows us to do these days. But I was sent by by the inimitable T quid Some some clips and so I would like to play a couple of them for you Lord willing they will work for us and This is a very recent clip from Tim Staples and since it's directly relevant to The topic and relevant to something that I Read this morning on Steve Ray's blog.

I thought it all sort of fit together rather well here is Something that's a Steve Ray posted this morning. And again, it illustrates to me. Anyway, the fact that These guys just don't have any interest in Interacting with criticisms their position they as long as the people they want To keep confused want to keep convicts convinced of their positions are convinced of their positions.

Then the rest of it. Hey, I don't have to worry about it I don't need to interact with the Protestants are saying we just don't really care. So here was a Article well just a paragraph that appeared on Steve Ray's blog this morning quoting Tim Staples.

And it says quote based on the Bible alone. How can you conclude there should be 27 books in the New Testament and each of these books is inspired and infallible as an example? There were some among the early Christians who did not believe Hebrews even today.

We'd not know for sure who wrote it second Peter said Hermas and letter of Clement of the Corinthians should be included in the canon. I stopped for just a moment. Isn't it odd? That Patrick Madrid can be so certain that Matthew wrote Matthew, but the Roman Catholic Church has never told us who wrote Hebrews and.

If.

The Pope came out today and said I hereby decree that Apollo's wrote Hebrews. How many Roman Catholic scholars? teaching and especially less than conservative institutions would actually believe that Apollo's wrote Hebrews.

I Have to wonder I continue with the quote if you look at third John for example. It never mentions the name of Jesus Christ and seems to be a quick note written by the elder where he says he had much To write but I would rather not write with pen and ink.

I hope to see you soon. We'll talk together face to face. Some asked the question why this should would be considered part of the canon when it explicitly says the elder did not want to include It and what he really wanted to communicate.

And who is this elder anyway using the Bible alone? Why should I believe he was inspired and infallible. And so here's the Circular canon argument from Rome once again. We can don't question us. We have the ability we have the power.

Wasn't our cartoon that had something like that. We have the power I forget but anyway. And so he's gonna repeat part of that. But here is let's see if we can figure out what tradition is. Thanks to Tim Staples.

What is tradition? Now remember let's let's listen and Let's see if we can figure out whether Tim Staples holds to pardon pardon or whether he holds to the material sufficiency view of Scripture. That is does he he believe like many of the Men at the Council of Trent that God's tradition.

God's revelation I'm sorry is found partly in the written traditions and partly in the oral traditions. Or does he believe in? Material sufficiency. Does he wander into the area where issues like the canon become a part of revelation itself?

So that tradition itself becomes inspired like Madrid did or will he do what Madrid does and flip-flop back and forth? Use the one when it's convenient any other when it's convenient. Let's see if we can figure out what's Tim Staples Actually believes.

My question focuses on church tradition.

And especially in you know in 2nd Thessalonians 2 15. Get hold to the traditions that you were taught. Either word of mouth or by letter. Do we know regarding the ones that were taught? Now exactly what those were.

In other words traditions that weren't captured in Scripture.

Sure.

What do you mean the same as they are today? That's that's the question.

Asking what is tradition and you can't get straight answers out of these folks. Well, they'd be the same as every day. Well, does that mean tradition has never changed? So that would mean that all the traditions that were delivered were delivered at that time so everything about the Marian dogmas and and all that stuff that was all delivered and Everybody at Thessalonica knew everything there was to know.

About the bodily assumption of Mary. Well, that wouldn't work because she wasn't dead yet. Hmm. How'd that work? Okay.

Proclamation of the gospel and more of what Jesus Revealed was being revealed at this awfully 50. It may have been 53 55. Until 95 or so, you know, everything hadn't been communicated. It was being communicated by the Apostles.

Thousand years. The select were purple. You know whether means which had been written by and the magisterium of the church would tell you. Whether or not this was static Union asked in the tradition written down now if that's true.

Let's just let's just go with this argument. All right, let's let's go with Tim's argument here. If if that's true then and tradition does not change Then all those things that I keep challenging these men to demonstrate from Scripture Demonstrate or from history if they want however, they want to do it.

Demonstrate that these things were being taught at that time and He's gonna the things he lists. Like hypostatic Union and Trinity and things like this are our traditions. You know, I it's it's Difficult to nail these guys down and find out exactly how their system works.

And of course once you get them to commit to something Somebody else could come along and say no. No, no, it's this way because the whole idea of this Unanimous monolith of belief that is Roman Catholicism just doesn't exist.

You know, you know the truth after this letter was written. Yes. Yes, many believe likely before Matthew Mark. Or I'm asking, you know, what are the tradition? Like how does he know when he's married now that before we get this amazing statement.

They're the same ones we have now notice what he has not mentioned. Notice what I have not heard. I have not heard anything about such things as the bodily assumption of Mary the immaculate conception Papal infallibility the very dogmas that Rome admits are Utterly dependent upon tradition are the very ones That he is not mentioning here and they are the ones that are the issues.

It's not the Trinity. It's not deity of Christ. I can demonstrate those things from Scripture. I don't need Roman tradition anyway shape or form to do such things. But it's these other things that have been added to the text.

They've been added to divine revelation that are the issue. Those are the things you should be focusing on. Now immediately again never heard the when do you get married argument before but let's let's run with it for the fun of it.

This kind of radical skepticism is is very useful in in making a person question solo scriptura. But it's a it's a bait-and-switch tactic. There's there's no substance to it because he can't tell you that either.

I mean he can say well We'll we'll give you XY is the answer that doesn't make it something the Apostles taught because Tim Staples says it. Doesn't mean that that's what the Apostles taught in the first place there's all sorts of things that the Bible doesn't give you some exact chronological answer on and To say oh, well you need it.

Therefore you need our tradition. Is the the perfect recipe for being sucked right into every kind of cult and ism there is out there and so to say well We have this tradition. Are you seriously telling me?

Is Tim Staples seriously suggesting the Apostles are running around talking about altars and priests. Performing sacramental marriages and this somehow is is how we're supposed to figure this out. And this was this was apostolic teaching this is long before the the entire concept of the priesthood even developed.

Again absolutely amazing only meant to convince those who want to be.

Convinced it's a little of Scripture the Trinity as I said. Hypostatic units. That now did you hear that?

Canon and Trinity are traditions. Now if they're divine truths then the canon somehow is allegedly delivered by the Apostles which which Apostle Delivered that that it did an Apostle deliver the canon in Thessalonica.

He knows that's not possible. He just mentioned that's not possible. He just said that if you put Thessalonica that the the Thessalonian epistles Around 52 and push revelation all the way back to say 98 He's talking about a 45-year difference so the only way That's the canon could be a part of this tradition Passed on by an Apostle would be if John did it.

Well, where did John do this? Can you tell us where John did this? Can you dogmatically define for us where John did this? No, of course not. All he's gonna say is well You know the church reflects this later on blah blah blah blah blah the gap Between the claimed origin of the tradition and the first evidence of alleged tradition is large indeed.

Well with Roman tradition you don't have any Christian faith at all that's that's the problem there.

So.

There's there's the argument put forward by Tim Staples an amazing Argument indeed before we take our first call. I didn't want to play a short one here. We have a another discussion but a little bit more reserved discussion of the veneration of Saints debate by Patrick Madrid.

Now I Would like to think that mr. Madrid would you know, I know that if Patrick Madrid Played our debate and went through it point by point I would listen and I would I would want I would contact him.

I would want to be involved in. And obviously if he had the phones wide open I'd call in and I'd want to address issues things like that. Of course, they don't do that when we do it. That is I think a rather telling thing personally, but anyway.

And you remember that mr. Madrid identified the This particular debate as the painfully obviously debate where It was made so painfully obvious how a bad the Protestant position is. Well, here's some comments he made on that particular debate.

Just recently. Second is the debate I did with a Protestant.

Several years back now. It's called the great debate on on the communion of Saints Mary in the communion of Saints. And it was held in front of an audience of close to a thousand people and it was a very vigorous debate on the question of can the Saints in heaven pray for us and do they pray for us and Can they hear us and all the other things.

And I approached it from a scriptural standpoint. So if you're interested in hearing that debate and kind of hearing how these clear biblical principles can become confused and even distorted as Unfortunately, many many Protestant preachers out there do then get a hold of that debate that is available at Patrick Madrid.

Comments called the great debate.

Now having gone through that debate and demonstrated the bankruptcy of Patrick Madrid's attempted use of scripture and Every time we went into a text we demonstrate in the debate. I didn't have to do it after the debate.

But we just highlighted it. Just how badly he handles the text. It is sometimes difficult to listen to that and go. What what were you listening to sir? That's that's what I would like to know. What what were you?

Hearing that that you could think that. That people are gonna hear the same thing you did. But hey, you know what? I'm glad he makes it available. I really am. Because I can trust the Spirit of God to open people's eyes and you know people say well.

You know you do the same thing and there are people who become Catholics. Yeah, you know, I was mentioning just last evening at dinner with Someone who actually would be on the cruise with us in in February.

I was well, I was talking with Gary DeMar. And we were talking about people becoming Roman Catholics and.

I.

Mentioned the fact that it does not surprise me at all When people who are a part of churches that are very shallow and surface level. There's not an emphasis upon the gospel. There's very shallow worship shallow preaching.

When when unregenerate people people who are just playing at the religion game Hear the claims of Rome they can be very attractive because they are attractive to the natural man. The natural man wants a system where he can control the grace of God.

And that is in essence exactly what the sacramental system is it is a man-made mechanism whereby you have this big reservoir of grace and man by what he does controls The very grace of God that that is very appealing to the natural man.

It truly is and it does not surprise me. I Have said many times for on this program when you discuss matters of truth You will rile up you will stir up The hearts and minds of the unregenerate who are amongst your your own your own numbers.

They are amongst those describing first John that had gone out from them because they were not truly of them and You're gonna see people converted. Well, what's worse to be a hypocrite in a true church?

Or to to finally just go and enter into a false church, which is worse for the soul. I don't think either one is better than the other. In fact, it might be better just to be a full-blown Person in a false church rather than a hypocrite the true church.

You're just adding up for your you know piling up for yourself judgment I would suppose but in any case doesn't surprise me at all but on the flip side when he distributes those tapes my of course belief is that the Spirit of God opens the hearts of men and when the Spirit of God is working upon someone's heart and And They hear the truth of God.

They are going to respond to that truth of God and that truly is a wonderful thing and so I'm thankful that he's making it available and you know if the Lord wants to Continue to leave him in a position of thinking that that he won that thing.

Well, that's up to the Lord. I pray of course that Patrick would come to know the truth that he would be Convicted of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and would would embrace it now. This is going to be the first time we've ever attempted to do this.

So Let's let's try it. Let's go ahead and take our first caller and see if we can talk with Johnny Johnny. Are you there Johnny? Are you there? I Cannot hear Johnny.

Do do do do do do.

Anything at all from Johnny, all right doesn't look like phone calls are gonna work quite right. We didn't get a chance to test that part. So that might have something to do with it, but One last shot for Johnny here I'm not getting any feedback.

I Can hear something. What is that? Is that you Johnny? No can't hear anything at all. All right, well we'll let the folks back in Phoenix see if they can figure that out and we will continue on and If they give me the word that they figured out what was going on great.

If not, we'll just have to do it this way. All right going back to the Patrick Madrid debate. We are getting toward the end if I would quit playing other clips. Well, we Would get to the get to the end, but let's pick up right where we left off last time.

Separate source of information. It's mr. Madrid. And so I want to turn around mr. Madrid and say mr. Madrid I challenge you to demonstrate on the basis of Scripture That what is in your supposed traditions is what is referred to in places like second Thessalonians 2 15 or second Timothy 2 2.

That is a challenge that I have laid before many a Roman Catholic Apologist and have not received an answer to it is the assumption that underlies the position. And that assumption must be addressed. The simple fact matter is we see in the second Thessalonians 2 15 that the tradition he speaks of there is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And you can't tell me that's not contained in the page of the scripture. And hence you show me a tradition sir an apostolic tradition. That is binding upon Christians that has not found the pages of New Testament.

Show us that apostolic tradition that we are told we must follow we must accept and then we can move from there.

Which again? He's gonna say well, I don't have to because I believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture. And and we just go back and forth and back and forth because he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

He wants to try to defend Roman authority on issues such as the Marian dogmas and all these other things developed way way way down the line while at the same time making it sound like He is actually defending a biblical position.

You know, okay, Mr. White, I'd be happy to take up on your challenge and here it is. This Canon of the New Testament is part of apostolic tradition. Okay. Now, there we go.

Now we've mentioned this before but this is where he really lays it out there. Here is where Patrick Madrid says that the canon is an apostolic tradition. Now remember, he's the one who's quoted second Thessalonians 2 15 and yet does he think revelation had been written at that point.

As Tim Staples mentions there is no. There's a very large scholarly consensus That there are a number of books left to be written after a second Thessalonians including like the Gospels. So how can the canon have been an apostolic tradition that Paul delivered to the Thessalonians?

How does that work? Please explain? How that is a possibility.

It's not found in Scripture and it is binding. You believe in a closed Canon. You believe that if we add to the Word of God, we are committing a sin. You would believe that the Mormons are wrong for adding the Book of Mormon to the Word of God.

You believe that revelation ceased at the death of the last Apostle? Now the canon of Scripture is something that I promised to hold you to which you have not yet Addressed. At least you haven't given us an answer.

That is one Apostolic tradition that is binding. Mr. White. And it's not found in Scripture. It's a divine revelation and it's binding on the consciences of Christians.

Okay, so it is divine revelation according to Patrick Madrid. It is divine revelation Which the Roman Catholic Church is not dogmatized until April of 1546. So no one knew this divine revelation Before.

Well, let's see after the time of the writing. Let's let's say that Tim Staples is correct and we're looking at about 52 for the writing of First Thessalonians, so people are gonna have to wait just under 1 ,500.

Years.

To have certain knowledge of this aspect of divine revelation. In fact, I would ask if you if you don't Know the canon of Scripture in that sense from the Roman Catholic perspective if they say we have to have divine certainty.

Could someone please explain to me how anyone?

The.

Defended the Trinity or the deity of Christ or any of these things before 1546. They didn't know what Scripture was or Did not. What an amazing thing?

For that kind of assertion to be made who as you would say hear the voice of their Savior and recognize it. There it is. How do you answer that? Well, it's quite easy. First of all an Apostolic tradition must exist since the time of the Apostles.

But mr. Madrid has been telling us that we had to wait to the end of the 4th century before we knew what can't Scripture. Was how'd that happen? Remember apostolic traditions in 2nd Thessalonians 2 15 or what already delivered?

So your timings all off. Furthermore, mr. Madrid the Apostles did not believe that the apocryphal was inspired scripture. So you see me you're going against what you call a binding Apostolic tradition and so I say no you have not accomplished this.

I challenge a Roman Catholic. Show me where the Thessalonians were taught the bodily assumption of Mary. Trace it through history. Show me where the Thessalonians were taught these doctrines that Roman Catholicism has defined on the basis of tradition.

Show me where they believed in the authority of the Bishop of Rome as the infallible Vicar of Christ. The early church did not believe that. They had no idea of that doctrine and yet Paul says these traditions were all ready delivered.

Where are they? No, they were not already delivered. Rome has made them up over time. Yes.

Yes, right, right. Okay. Okay. Now at this point Patrick begged for a potty break. Which is fine. I I didn't mind that at all. I imagine we were both drinking a lot of water at that time because as I mentioned it was a very very warm evening.

So we took a break and we're gonna come back we come back. We're gonna try Johnny one more time and then start into the closing statements. But first we're gonna take our break here on the dividing line.

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Get your copy in the bookstore at al min or and welcome back to the dividing line on a Thursday evening.

It's actually dark here now. The Sun went down while we were doing the first half of the program and. So it is a little bit unusual for me. It's getting earlier and earlier. My body says it's 430 and outside.

It says it's 630. So That's an interesting way of doing things. Anyway, we're gonna go ahead and try to get Johnny on one more time. Let's see if we can talk to Johnny. Hello, Johnny.

Hello, Johnny I.

Hear something now. Hello. Hey, there he is. How you doing? I'm doing good.

Good. Hi. I I have actually a couple of questions and the first one may actually be a foolish question. So bear with me on this one. I was listening to you last Tuesday's not this Tuesday, but I'm sorry the last Thursday's dividing line and One of the things that you were that you were putting on from the Madrid debate on social tourism.

He kept harping on the cannon question and then something hit me. Just it just kind of dawned on me and I said to myself, you know, I remember I'm pretty sure you listen to the debate between dr. Greg Bonson and R .C. Sproul on apologetic method.

Oh.

Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, okay.

Well.

I remember in debate and and the reason why I bring that up is because R .C. Sproul as we know is Classical evidentialist in this apologetic approach and one of the things I remember him saying is that in in philosophy There is no such thing as philosophical certainty and and of course a lot of this philosophy goes back to the the natural theology of Thomas Aquinas or at least something along those lines and being that the Roman Catholic Church basically holds at least somewhat of a similar view of apologetic method in in that regard that would mean that According to this point of view there is no such thing as philosophical certainty.

If this is the case I Mean, and maybe I'm wrong here. Aren't they in essence asking the Protestant to give them? Philosophical certainty on the cannon when they don't even believe that philosophical certainty exists.

Well, if you're asking if they are being consistent in demanding of us what they themselves cannot provide. Yes, of course. Now, of course, there are different there are even differing viewpoints within Roman Catholicism on issues like that.

And of course, we need to recognize that Apologists on both sides of the spectrum tend to be among the more conservative individuals. But my recollection is that Madrid himself Would identify himself as being quite Thomistic.

And so I would assume that he would have. Now, of course at that point, I need to point something out they they might make a differentiation in regards to the church's authority being able to provide a kind of Epistemological certainty that goes beyond that which is provided by philosophy.

So you'd find it. Yeah.

What I'm talking about is from from the standpoint of see they're asking us to do that with the cannon.

Okay.

But if if our grounds for accepting the cannon are insufficient for them Then can't we turn it around on them and saying okay? Give me philosophical certainty that the Roman Catholic Church was the church that was established by Jesus Christ.

Not not this. I mean, I remember when you asked that question that Patrick Madrid I think he said something about well Can I if can I show that the Roman Catholic Church was established by Jesus and therefore that's the church I'm talking about philosophical certainty that Peter and Paul and all these guys were actually teaching the same things that are being taught today.

If if they can't give us that philosophical certainty in that regard Then I don't think they should have the right to ask us for that philosophical certainty when it comes to the cannon. I.

Would I would agree with you? You'll have to find the next place that Patrick's speaking out your direction and explain that.

Okay. Now, here's the second question that I have it I'm sure you probably know about this. But I just kind of it kind of got this in the mail because I'm on Robertson Genesis email. I mean a mailing list.

And.

Interesting stuff in the mail, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was actually pretty interesting because they're they're asking for donations, of course. But he said that according to this news release I guess they just got that they removed a sentence from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the sentence says Quote.

Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid For them and according to this letter the CAI has fought and they have finally removed this Sentence from the CCC and so I'm asking you what what what do you think would be the ramifications of something like this?

Well, first of all, I've not heard anything about it at all. Secondly the idea that Robertson Genesis and his very small band would actually be able to convince the.

The.

Magisterium the Roman Catholic Church to remove something about the Jews from the Universal Catholic Catechism strikes me as well. Highly unlikely. Let's put it that way so I can't comment on that because I wouldn't even have time to pull up the Current edition online and that doesn't even necessarily tell me anything if they haven't updated it so I would be interested in finding out from somebody whether there has been a Change there, but in light of even what I played last week and Tim Staples mentioning the close relationship between Jacob Neusner and Ratzinger and Hence the the church saying, you know in liturgical music and so on and so forth that they can't use the term Yahweh anymore that goes against everything that Rome is doing right now, so I Don't I don't know.

More more in a liturgical level. I'm speaking. I mean, you're absolutely right. We I guess this needs to be looked into because I don't have the latest Catechism myself. I have the older one, but I just find it because this is a feel a very Significant theological sentence about the Jewish.

I mean it almost sounds sensational. Obviously Rome is not dispensational, but it almost it's kind of Jewish friendly in this sense and for this to be removed I think it would know the.

Maybe the paradigm or something along those lines. Well, it would it would depend a little bit.

If.

If it's a matter of where the sentence is being placed what some materials are, you know. Just just removing it from one place if there have been changes made elsewhere, you know. That's why I would have to look at it to know what what's really it's about.

I I don't I don't have any information on it at all. So that's first time I've heard of anything about it. Okay, thanks for thanks for patiently hanging on so we get you on the air. All right. Thank you.

All right. Of course, I'll go the scary is posting stuff in channel about various things like that, but that's from 2002 so Yeah, I I've not heard anything about that I've not seen anything like that pop up on any of my RSS feeds or anything like that.

So That would be news to me. It might be significant, but that would be that would be news to me. Well Let's take a look at maybe Finishing off at least my portion of the debate here. I believe I had the last statement and It's been a little while since I listened to this particular portion of it.