Cultish: Looking Into YWAM (Youth With A Mission) - Part 4

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Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the king of the Colts My name's Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here.

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I'm here with Andrew up in Harriman, Utah. Good to have you back, man Yes, thank you, brother.

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Good to be back and doing the last Episode on our two -part why wham series so total of four episodes

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This would be number four excited to be to be back here today and continue our conversation with dairy, right?

00:24

Awesome They're good to have you back, man Yeah, give me back y 'all. It's fun time Awesome man, so I appreciate you jumping back on here.

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And so the initial episode we did with you We're kind of just giving a broad overview kind of giving your perspective as a whole regarding a lot of the issues surrounding why wham?

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So I think what we would like to do in this next episode to kind of really talk about the aspect the topic of spiritual abuse because when it comes to the conversation behind Why people wanted us to discuss?

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Why wham and youth with a mission was the topic of spiritual abuse? In fact, that's the neat there's even

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Facebook groups with that exact title and it's a very emotional topic as well

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To people who've experienced that and I get that I mean I've had great mission trips where like I came to the

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Lord on a mission trip back when I was a young man and then I have what I would describe as the mission trip from hell where There were just issues where there were

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Staff members who are not good people and things happened where there were people that were hurt

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In many ways, I would just call it spiritual abuse and I'll keep it vague but um you know and I felt a large amount of responsibility given that I was a leader and I didn't really see this person for who he was and I Remember coming back from that trip completely just jaded and in a funk for like six months

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So I I kind of get you know A lot of aspects of just you know, people coming back and feeling jaded as well, too

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But yeah, let's just jump into it. So maybe just get from your perspective Why do you think just as a whole even separate from why

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I am just for you someone who's in ministry like what? Why do you think dealing with the issue of spiritual abuse is important?

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Um, just kind of give your perspective on that. I'm sure that's a passion topic of you as well, too Oh, absolutely, man

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It's if Christ is your everything right? Like that's your whole life You know what?

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I mean like no matter if you're in full -time ministry like if Like full -time ministry is being a Christian like if you're a

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Christian you're in full -time ministry and there's some people get paid to do it Like pastors, but all of our jobs is to to love the

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Lord full -time you know what I mean and to show other people his love full -time and if that's truly like Everything to you like you've you've surrendered your finances to him.

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You've surrendered your relationships like he's given you those things, but you've given them back to him and you've surrendered it all to him like When someone comes in in a position of authority and abuses that like they're abusing everything to you

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You know what? I mean, especially when someone's young in their faith and then they trust someone to come over them and that person mishandles the power and the authority that they've been given and Hurts this person like that is a big deal

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You know what? I mean, like if Christ is at the center and someone has misread misrepresented him, right?

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Like they've taken his name in vain by misrepresenting him like the children of Israel weren't supposed to do Yeah like that that causes huge implications for the person being abused like their view of God is now going to be altered until The Lord heals them of that because this person was supposed to be someone that was

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Stewarding their authority and leading them and sharpening them towards God and they did the exact opposite That's a huge deal and it affects every aspect of our life truly

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I think and it's something that the church is starting to take more More seriously and that I hope

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YOM is all as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think I just to echo what you're saying I think you're totally right. Jesus does care.

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I mean, it's in Matthew 18 6 where he says but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin

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It would be better for him to have a great Millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of this people

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Yeah, people hear about these problems and being made in the image of God It tugs on people's heartstrings and there should be justice that occurs and there should be these things

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It should be brought to light and be talked about right like like you said to be a Christian is almost to expose It is to expose the dark places.

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It shouldn't talked about. I think I think that's great dairy. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely For you yourself night.

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I appreciate that explanation. Is there example is that still I mean is there aspects where you can relate to that?

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personally in regards to having someone you look up to or kind of the whole aspect of a spiritual abuse and you know,

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We're looking at the broad perspective of its surrounding YOM But what about you personally because I don't know just kind of hearing you get that was a great description

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It sounds to me. Is there part of that that hits close to home in regards to any aspect of your experience?

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And if so, could you share that with us? Yeah, I've I've been through Not a ton of spiritual abuse, but not none at the same time

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Mostly outside of YOM like for the more like extreme versions I had a therapist that was pretty spiritually abusive and he was a pastor and a therapist and he tried to like take a therapist hat off and put his pastor hat on like at different times and I don't get into the details just never like It's just not important, but there was some spiritual abuse in that relationship and I think as YOM has a lot of young leaders people are learning on the fly a lot of times and so I've experienced like Little bits here and there of like very minor

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I don't even know if you call it spiritual abuse just like someone growing and you have to have a Confrontation with them and be like hey like this you saying this made me feel this kind of way

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I don't think you represented Christ. Well, and you know the person repenting and saying I'm sorry for doing that Like I'm gonna try to to look like Christ better in this way going forward.

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I've had little things like that happen Nothing nothing very extreme. I've heard a lot more and Secondhand about people who've been through a lot more spiritual abuse in the church and in YOM So yeah,

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I haven't experienced a ton Definitely have experienced some that could have been a little derailing But the

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Lord's brought me through healing and I just go back to the scripture and remind myself. Yeah, he is So when you look at these is the conversation

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I appreciate you sharing that man Is when you just when you look at this the Conversation and again, we're both

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Andrew and I kind of still looking at this with outsiders perspectives Just trying trying to look at the big picture here

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Do you see areas when in regards to the conversation surrounding YOM and spiritual abuse has taken happening again?

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depending on on the on the particular base are there Areas in which YOM understands that this is a problem or is doing something to address it or even for yourself personally is there?

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Are there times where YOM has owned what has happened in particular cases

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But are there also areas where you would say they could do a better job of when there's people coming out

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You know being very public about what happened to them You know say it's with their particular leader of a particular base and this issue wasn't addressed

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Are there areas we think they could do a lot better job of owning it? I think I talked about this before the break, you know

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There's some people that we've spoken about one of the difficulties was is that they just they couldn't really get any level of closure with their experience with youth of the mission just because They couldn't really get it really any acknowledgments or ownership over What happened or how this leader fell short?

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I would love to hear your perspective on that Yeah, um, I do know of a base.

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I have a lot of friends at this base and 10 years ago about 10 years maybe 15 years ago It was just wasn't very healthy right like a lot of the leadership wasn't in a great place it just was the culture of the base at the time wasn't very honoring and stuff like that and a lot of not awesome stuff happened and It created a lot of abuse and a lot of the students and in one particular student and I don't know a lot of the details exactly around it because I was 15 10 years ago but From the stories that I've heard

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Everybody after like that I was said and done all of the staff and all of the leadership reached out to the students that were there at that time and Sent them like personal messages and personal phone calls and we're like hey

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Like we did a terrible job like looking back and like at the time you were here We're really sorry for what we did and if there's anything we can do to make it up to you

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Like we would love to bring any kind of reconciliation that we can And so I think that base just from hearing those stories handled it really well all of the staff that were involved publicly repented and Individually repented to the people that were involved

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Doesn't happen every time like that. You know, I think that's a good example of how a base would handle abuse happening

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I'm sure there's lots of times where someone has been abused spiritually and it's been swept under the rug or the person has so much

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Pride they don't want to admit What they've done either. Mm -hmm. I have

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I have experienced times where Someone I do know semi personally I wasn't involved in the situation, but they had too much pride to admit their their shortcomings and they were like, oh from staff because they weren't they weren't willing to repent and and actually like change

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Okay. No, I appreciate that. Let me ask you this too. And I mentioned this is something we shared with Josh Hey, they get their perspective again.

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This is just one. This is just one students former students vantage point And in again, it all depends on the particular base, but this is somebody who talked about this is a negative experience with intercession

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I'll just paraphrase it And this is someone who said Take a look here.

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It said. Oh, yeah after the lecture Delineated the steps of intercession. This is the lecture intercession after a five -minute break

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We regrouped in the lecture room at our first try to talk about intercession and exactly what occurred is still hazy in my mind

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But I will try and explain it the best that I can I found a seat near the front and sat clutching the blue card that they had

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They had handed out that listed the magic formula for unlocking the secrets of God I bowed my head closed my eyes in the midst of the chorus of yes

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Lords And thank you Jesus as I heard Jack our director begin to pray after a few moments He prayed Lord.

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We asked the Holy Spirit that would would reveal any confessed sin He continued in a soft voice and I believe that he mentioned various sins

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I can't recall exactly what he said. I had focused my thoughts on God But in the background I heard

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Jack encouraging speak it out speak it out Next thing I knew someone was sobbing loudly saying

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Oh Lord, please forgive me and again Jack instructed speak it out And eventually the sobbing girl confessed that she had been sleeping with her boyfriend before she left home for Hawaii She prayed for a few minutes and and then several others offered prayer on her behalf

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Her confession was soon followed by those who felt convicted about sins Committed to their arrival at DTS They went on for several hours people crying and pleading out for forgiveness and Jack advising to speak it out

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We finally broke for lunch at one o 'clock And so he kind of goes on you could read in the document, but he just kind of elaborates

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This was something that was long drawn -out Exhausting probably like a lot of social pressures, especially if you're an environment

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We've had other people who would talk about this or have messaged us where someone You're almost sort of forced to do something like if you don't follow if you don't fall over or if you don't speak in tongues

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Like something is wrong with you, right? So this is something that again just from an outsider's perspective

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I look at this this could be an example and media would be red flags and issues of spiritual abuse

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In this particular instance, and this is something that you would see probably shared in one of those groups

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But for you like as someone who's on why when staff when you hear an example just like this

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Like how would you what do we do with something like this? Experiences like actively on the base or if someone came up to you and said this is what happened

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And I'm kind of shooken up by this. I don't know what to do here Like how do we deal with someone who's having this experience?

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So the person felt pressured to yeah Yeah, and that that's what's indicating if you read the full context of it

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This is just this is a transcript of just one of the many videos we found But this transcript is probably one of just countless examples of what people have shared about their experiences at a particular basis

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So right just trying to do a kind of kind of diagnose like how do we actually deal with the issue here?

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How do we're trying to live in the solution here? Yeah, I've I've heard of that happening before.

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I think I just had a friend actually last week. Tell me that Her I think it was her sister was coming out of a church that publicly did that and if you wouldn't

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Publicly confess your sins every Sunday, you would be like excommunicated from the church and was just like a very fundamentalist church

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I don't know where that would be and I've never heard of that really before and maybe kind of culty

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But yeah If I would say if I was in that situation like leadership needs to be addressed if that's happening like that's probably someone who's in charge of intercession at that point who's directing this kind of a thing and just like I said how

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There's and while I'm like a flat table like a plane of leadership where everybody is sort of on the same level with different positions

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I think the leadership needs to get together and be like hey like this We're hearing from students that this caused abuse in their lives

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Like we could see it on their faces while they were worshiping that this was traumatizing to them that like you're forcing them to go through this like Reliving these things that maybe they don't want to relive or even that they don't feel

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Were sins and you're maybe even influencing them to confess something they haven't done right like if that was really the

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The lens that it was being seen through. Yeah, I think that there are There are times where the

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Lord brings repentance publicly and that can happen, right? It's biblical, but it doesn't seem like this was necessarily an instance of that It seems like through his testimony like it was being coerced a little bit.

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It was from the Spirit It was being coerced then leadership needs to be addressed and be like hey you got to let

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God do what he wants to do and you cannot course something like that to happen in like a public time and have an actual

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Confrontation with the person who is leading that time. Yeah a leadership standpoint. Mm -hmm Yeah, how does how does it work like being cross denominational in a sense?

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Do are people fully aware of the principles of intercession right like before they actually engage in it?

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Like you know before they enter D DTS or or pay X amount. I want you to get in Do they have the ability to opt out of that?

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Yeah, they even count upon if they even can while they're here, right if we we obviously have to worship together and so There are different worship sessions that will look differently and different worship leaders that will lead differently.

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For example a couple years ago We had I'm a guy who really loved hymns and we would just sing hymns like old -school hymns when he would lead worship

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And that was his like expression of worship and a lot of people really loved it. I really loved it We have different worship leaders.

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They're very much more charismatic and have times of spontaneity there's worship leaders that are normal and are just kind of like middle -of -the -road like Non -denominational worship leaders that are just kind of like we sing a song and we sing the next song with the next song and then it's

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Over kind of thing. You know what I mean? Is the answer question at all? Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, so before they enter DTS essentially are they told this is something that may be expected of you like or you know, because it can be very very

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Awkward for someone if they don't expect that coming I mean I'm sure a lot of people may now because they probably watch a lot of videos and why women stuff like that But but all of a sudden people are confessing these sins to one another and they and they're being told that if you confess them

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You're more open to hearing from God and things of that nature So people may feel pressured then to explain some of the secret sins that they've hold

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Oh, I got so dear, you know, you see what I'm saying? Like yeah, but what you're saying is people can actually opt out of actually engaging in the intercession

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Is there other things that they can do? So our intercession times look completely different every single time

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The steps of intercession will talk about maybe once every three months We'll go over them and it's very vague like like we'll just go over them like briefly like we'll say praise and give praise and thanks to the

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Lord and then in your heart confess your sins to the Lord and if you want to You can confess to someone around you if you want if like the

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Lord promised you to do that Right just normal things that you would do when it comes to like praying and I think this example

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But this person gave is an example of where I was taken too far, right? But everybody I think if you're a

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Christian you do intercession, right? You pray to the Lord that he would stop persecution in the

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Middle East. I certainly pray for all the time, right? That's an active Christian practice And so I wouldn't say that it would be surprising to come to while I may know that we do that We list online that we have worship and intercession times

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We have those times posted on most of our websites to Like tell the community to come and pray with us for the nation's

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We have like the exact List of like our intercession steps listed out there as well.

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So people can learn how we do intercession I don't think any of those steps are unbiblical either You also don't have to do them like I don't repeat

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This is like a mantra every time I worship or every time I do intercession I remember like when I wake up in the morning

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I confess my sins to the Lord and I like clean my heart for that day And I ask him to come and do it with me and to give me strength and and all those kind of things, right?

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Like I prepare myself for the day and that's sort of what this is If someone hasn't prepared themselves for the day hasn't gotten right with the

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Lord If they're distracted by something this helps sort of Center you and be like Ready to pray to the

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Lord, I guess that's like what this does But yeah, it by no means do we say them every time we do intercession? Not that it would be bad if we did but it's not like a forced or course thing at any base that I've been to But it

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I there's obviously testimonies of where it has been in the past. So I validate that those have happened as well

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Are there maybe when you when you go when you talk about the different teachings on intercession? I mean are you mentioned to about avoiding coercion, which is very very important And that's honestly that's one of the biggest things when you actually look at actual

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Cult -like behavior when you act for example If you ever read up on the story of Jim Jones, like all of his healing services and all that he did

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I mean he was a master of coercion Yeah, but I think all of us are capable of that because I think a lot of times

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You know We you want to have this giant transcendent spiritual experience and it's like oh you just want to force yourself to like experience this

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Yeah are there talks in the Y1 base about things you can do at least from your perspective of Like how here steps to make sure that this is authentic versus something that is coerced

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Okay, it's good It's one thing that cuts for you to kind of talk about it sort of from your perspective But I think as a whole is that something that is sort of encouraged or kind of emphasized in?

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Y1 Yeah, I think it definitely is at our base it we have people who believe so many different things and are like kind of so far apart on the spectrum that How do

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I explain this like we it doesn't happen as often there just has never really been any feeling of coercion in worship or coercion in In intercession we've had other people from the community that our pastors

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Come and speak or come and lead prayer times or worship times where it has felt coerced and we have like discussed those in staff

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Meetings afterwards and been like and talked to the base like publicly and like the next worship time I'm like, hey, like that wasn't awesome at all

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Like this person was very manipulative and we cut it off right and they're never coming back You know what? I mean But we haven't really had a lot of that in the particular base that I've been a part of So I don't think

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I can really speak to that very well. Okay What about? another thing too when you look at the idea of like confession and one of the things that talks about The principles of intercession and this is one things

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Andrew hit you had pulled up But it talked about it says make sure that your heart it like that gives different steps I think step two was make sure yeah make sure your heart is clean before God by having giving the

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Holy Spirit time to convict that there should be any any unconfessed sins and Talking about one making sure you do that personally, but also, you know cross

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Confessing, you know confessing to each other and there's a biblical basis for that But I think there's also dangers too because confession is a good thing

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But there also are boundaries in regards to who you can test who you confess to for example there's just certain things that You know men should not be confessing to women about certain things vice versa.

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There's dangers that come with that There's also issues to like, you know, our pastor He has a we have a policy to hear when we whenever we counsel someone if there's a for example of a pastor's counseling woman

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There's always a second person in the room. There's always a witness to them They're just there's just boundaries that go in place but are there talks in regards to these aspects of confession as far as like boundaries as far as who you confess to because Especially being you know young and excited and you kind of want to hear the voice of God you're kind of caught up in the moment are there areas of Opportunity to improve or areas where that you've fallen short of that or what's the overall view of that?

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I think when I look at the pulse of the conversation behind issues with why women even why this comes the conversations of spiritual abuse is

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There's just everyone wants to confess to everyone And this is just from hearing multiple different sort of stories and vantage points

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What are some area give us your thoughts in that or like what some areas that why what do you think? Why am I was doing right?

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What are areas that why women could either you'd say own or improve upon when it comes to that? Yeah, because why

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I'm is so young. I've experienced it be very much of like a Like Free -flowing kind of a thing right like when we do the second step of intercession, it's always

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If you would like to confess like to the person next to you, you can do that, right? But it's never like a you can get up and share in front of everybody now.

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There are times where someone I've only ever experienced this being self prompted or prompted by the

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Holy Spirit Someone is prompted and they say I need to stand up and confess this Publicly in front of my community and usually it's because It's not something they've done to one individual person, which they need to take care between that person and themselves

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But it's because it's something like an action They've done towards a community and the Holy Spirit is asking them to confess to everybody.

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They've done this I've never really experienced that pressure I think that's like the main thing of like a pressure to confess

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To be able to enter to intercession like even a doorway to get there, right? I've never experienced that I'm sure it's happened places.

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I'm sure people have felt to that pressure Almost every time we do the intercession steps, though It's always a you can confess to the

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Lord if the Lord prompts you and bring something up in your heart and you want to You can confess to the person that you feel comfortable confessing to Yeah Do you think though when it comes to that whole aspect of you know?

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Confessing to each other and sort of this confession preparing your heart And again

23:01

Steve Hassan in his book when he talks about in his book combating cult mind control He does talk about undue influence where it's not like it's like no one's setting out to all of a sudden

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We're not going to coerce these particular people but if all of a sudden, you know, there's say there's 70 % in the room that are just sort of maybe 70 % like actually have stuff they want to confess

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They're in an environment just because you almost have expectations. You're going to use for the mission on a mission trip

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You want to be part of the movement of God the spirits in the house and the spirits moving where There's like the 30 % who are just sort of there and they're like, well,

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I think I'm okay But maybe there is something I want to do Like do you think there's dangers and sort of having that undue influence where maybe they just in order to fit in?

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Not to say that the 70 % are trying to manipulate the other trying to coerce them Yeah I don't know

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Do you think there's any aspect of the environment that could be unhealthy where? The other people are just trying to sort of fit in Like not like is it not that it's malicious, but it's just a byproduct of the environment or their area

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What are your thoughts on that? We are we are group oriented people like just as human beings.

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We are Relational right and we often follow the path in a lot of instances

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I don't know how that would be fixed though You know if if a group of if a group of 70 out of 100 people are all confessing their sins

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I'm gonna tell you from a psychological standpoint a sociological standpoint other people that don't need to confess sins are gonna

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Search their heart and think is there something I can confess like I want to be a part of this You know what? I mean just to be a part of the group

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But I think that is much more if if truly there is no manipulation going on and if truly there is no

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Like pressure that's happening to confess to be holy or to enter into something as like a gateway if that isn't happening

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Then I don't see a necessary problem with the structure itself and in wanting people to clean their heart before the

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Lord It couldn't go to a bad place. Absolutely But if you have two options of you could do it in a healthy way or you could not do it at all

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I don't see the taking away of the healthy way of doing it just to not do it at all So we make sure people aren't abused is a good option when the

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Bible asks us to clean our hearts before the Lord You know what? I mean? Okay, so I don't I don't see a necessary like a clear example to myself there could be one

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I bet I just not thinking of where We can make that system better I think as long as it's very

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Voluntary and it's very you do this before the Lord you let the Holy Spirit convict you let scripture convict you and if you want

25:35

To voluntarily share with an individual or the group you can as long as it's done voluntarily. I think it's a good practice to do

25:41

Okay, I appreciate that. So another question I would have to Usually what

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I see is well to just in the overall conversation like why is this at our desk? Where do the issues of the

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Y1 base? Like what's the pulse of the people to who are having, you know, the quote -unquote spiritual abuse, you know

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And obviously we want to take that seriously and anyone who's ever experienced that when my heart goes out to them We get message all the time for different groups around You know around the world who've had been you know, people who are cult survivors who've been through a lot of those different different experiences

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I When it comes to you know, the decentralization you still have a lot of You look at like the people who get the leaders a lot of times the issue when it comes to the

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Y1 bases when I Would like that where's the where's the spiritual abuse coming from? It tends to be the leader of that base, right?

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What I've seen a lot of times is that someone from the time they go on They go they do their

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DTS There they are a student and then they become staffed to actually becoming a

26:43

Y1 base leader a lot of times It's a very short amount of time from what I've seen just different people's testimonies and then not only that but it's but it's just them all of a sudden being put in charge of the

26:54

Y being put in charge of the base and Then I think though if you when you put someone at a young age you think of the wisdom that Paul said in 1st

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Timothy 5 where it says do not be hasty in the laying of hands. Do not do not be hasty in the laying of hands that Spiritual leadership is not just it's not just something that's systematized.

27:14

It's not you can make a Jimmy John's franchise Yeah, and so but I think if you take that someone who's young you put them into leadership over a base

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But you also take a lot of what's talked about in Lauren Cunningham's book hearing the voice of God I think there can be a dangerous

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Combination and this is just me kind of giving my perspective off the fly and Andrew you can give your thoughts as well, too is that You could see there could be

27:41

I could see a dangerous combination between Someone who's young who's put an authority in a

27:46

Y1 base, but also Hearing the voice of God where they could say well I'm hearing the voice of God and kind of using that as their authority because that goes to be truly honest.

27:56

I feel like experience In regards to hearing the voice of God that's what's emphasized in Lauren Cunningham's book versus Scripture and I think overall as a whole when

28:08

I look at Lauren Cunningham's book. I think he had a lot of great ideas with how he wanted

28:13

Y1 to go But then there's a lot of vision, but then it's like okay. This is the actual infrastructure

28:19

So yeah all that being said what do we do? What are your perspectives on that on the aspect of leadership or Y1 basis or are there dangers are there dangers that you could see

28:28

In regards to the areas of accountability in that regard versus yeah over emphasizing hearing the voice of God Yeah, first off on the last point you made for Lauren's book.

28:37

It is a very narrative driven book So I don't think at all I don't think at all it's supposed to encompass like the system or even systematize though the ways or communicate that system of the ways

28:46

We do our leadership and stuff and from the stories in that book things have changed a lot like 2003 2013 a lot of our organizational structures have changed we can talk about all that But that's why

28:59

I want to say on the book is very narrative For young leaders becoming bait like actual base leaders.

29:05

I have almost never seen that all of the base leaders I know are usually elders and And Usually have been in YOM for over 10 years

29:18

It's not the case every time I think a better example to use because I do think this is the problem a better example to use would be like DTS leaders or school leaders or Like outreach leaders right like these are people that Maybe have done

29:37

YOM. They did a six -month school, right? Maybe they did two to six month schools they've been in it for a year and Now they're on staff and now they're put in a position where they're in charge of ten people going on an outreach, right?

29:49

I would say that is a situation that can be abused much easier Because there are less requirements for it there are tons of requirements when it comes to being an actual base leader and being over like being in charge of Like the property and all the financial stuff and all all those kind of things there are many many more like checks and balances when it comes to that position and you couldn't just like vote somebody into that position like there's a lot of like Okay's that have to go with like the board and different bases and stuff when it comes to some being a base leader but I have seen people that are immature and not ready to be leaders when it comes to either discipling somebody or Leading a team whether they weren't ready mentally or they didn't have the confidence or They weren't just mature enough spiritually yet to do it

30:41

Yeah, I haven't seen it often but it definitely has happened and I have seen certain staff that are that way

30:47

Two different things I think about this. I think sometimes it is for the lack of staff that this happens

30:54

There's only three staff available. You have a school of 20 people coming in You need all three staff to staff the school and sometimes they get put in that position and it's not good and it's an error in judgment on the person that's the leader or the group of people that are leaders that are putting that person in that situation it's bad for the leader because They are gonna be put in a situation.

31:15

They don't know how to handle and they're gonna by default do things that are bad But it's it's bad for the students that are there as well

31:22

I think the other reason that this can be problematic is that Or the real like reason that this can happen is just a lapse in judgment on Certain staffs parts relating to the story that you said like I'm sure there was some

31:36

Staff or group of staff that picked the person that was abusive that went on your mission The mission from hell that you talked about.

31:44

Mm -hmm And that that leader wasn't who he seemed to be right he either purposefully or subconsciously

31:53

Was somebody like portrayed himself to be somebody he wasn't and that can happen on my own basis to like we can think

31:58

Someone can tell us a story about their past and things they've been through and it can seem like they're talking to talking to walk in the walk and they're the spiritual they have a spiritual level of maturity that is expected of a leader and they're ready to lead a team and they get into those instances and they abuse their power and they weren't

32:15

Who they seemed to be and that can be either a lapse in judgment on a leader putting them in that position

32:20

Um, or it can be that they were just really good at hiding it in the first place, you know So we do we do as a leadership have group meetings about who should be in what position and who should be given um like levels of authority and what leaders should go where and we try to do our best and we try to Get as much wisdom from as many people as we can

32:40

But people slip through the cracks all the time and they create spiritual abuse a spiritual abuse and it does happen

32:46

So so what um, what what is the emphasis? Exactly like how big is the emphasis on hearing the voice of god and how is that used in making decisions in everyday?

32:57

life inside of ywam with between one another like what what is the purpose of it like for for just like a

33:02

I have the bible which is a hundred which is the voice of god, right? Like a hundred percent accurate a hundred percent of the time

33:09

But i'd say people's thinking they're hearing the voice of god, maybe accurate maybe 10 15 percent of the time

33:14

So i'm trying to figure out what what what exactly is this? This emphasis how is it used in the way people interact with one another and how do you think that?

33:23

Might be a catalyst for some people to get spiritually hurt and then somehow Um use it to justify

33:29

Deconstructing from the christian faith in general. Yeah a lot of questions there. Um, yeah, there's a few of them.

33:34

I'm, sorry Yeah, yeah going back to even what I forgot to talk about before where it comes to like, um

33:40

Young leaders being put in positions of power and then using the voice of god to abuse people, right?

33:45

Um, i'm sure that that has happened i've heard testimonies of that happen Um, and in that case the person needs to be held accountable for what they're doing, right?

33:54

I think whether that's an if no one of the staff that are there holding accountable There's a huge problem with the staff like not holding that person accountable because they're supposed to do that If pastors in the community don't hold that person accountable, which they should that's the problem

34:06

And then if finally like wylam as a whole doesn't come in and remove that person then that's a big deal as well um

34:12

I think it does happen Now to your question of where what like kind of role does um

34:18

The voice of god have in our everyday lives um I think it changes person to person based off of how much that person believes they can hear from god or does hear from god um, most all the decisions we make like major decisions say we want to uh, like on a uh

34:35

A macro scale like we want to buy a property Like we're going to get together as a group of leadership and we're going to listen to the lord and um

34:42

And read scripture to try to see what would be the wisest decision on what property to buy We look at our finances and we listen to the lord and say do you have any leadings god for where we should go?

34:52

What kind of ministry we should do and where we want to buy this property, right? it goes down from from that big of a decision down to sometimes we'll be going to do evangelism down, um somewhere and We'll feel like the lord speaks to one of the staff and they say hey

35:08

I think we could go do evangelism over here instead This is where the lord's leaving us. And so we'll go to evangelism there Um, so I think it's to me

35:16

It's a normal part of being a christian Definitely can be used to abuse if you say

35:22

I am the leader. I am in charge This is what the lord is saying. You have to do this.

35:27

That's dangerous, right? And anybody is free to say no, that's not what the lord is doing

35:33

You don't get to say that for all of us I don't think that's what the lord is doing and so i'm not going to do it

35:38

Anybody has the freedom student or staff to say i'm not comfortable with this. I don't think it's from the lord

35:43

I'm not going to do it. I don't think you're hearing from god Everybody's got the ability to do that and they're not going to get kicked out of a school

35:49

Or kicked off staff for doing that, right? We may have like a deeper conversation because someone could be wrong or someone could be right

35:56

We'll have a deeper conversation about that. Um So to summarize I think it's healthy. It can be abused and has been abused in the past and those should be addressed by leadership

36:06

What are some what are from your perspective, what are some ways that ywam can can better uh

36:11

Deal with those issues too. I mean getting you obviously acknowledge there have been instances in the past of that. Oh, yeah What's how how does like how how do you from your perspective someone who's on the inside and actively on staff right now?

36:22

Look, what can ywam do from your perspective? Yeah, um, I think Showing people where actual authority lies is so important and it's something we do do

36:33

But I think it's something that could be emphasized even more Like christ has the ultimate authority and he is our head.

36:38

He is the leader. There is no staff that is above christ There is no staff whose word is above christ

36:44

And everybody agrees that like christ is our example of what a leader should be and he is our actual leader

36:49

Right god is our leader. And so when it comes to like hearing the voice of god I am not

36:56

Um, I am not responsible to this staff for what the lord is saying. I am responsible to god

37:01

God is my leader. God is the person that i am responsible and accountable to for everything And so I follow god.

37:07

I don't follow you necessarily now god has put this leader in a position of authority So I want to honor god and the authority that he's given this leader and follow him

37:15

But ultimately god is my authority and I follow what his word says right and everybody on Our base and the base that i've been to I think knows that but I think a re -emphasis of that more often would be very healthy especially for students to know

37:29

This person is in a like a position of power over you just to directly say that because they know it

37:36

But that christ is your ultimate authority over you, right? so if this person says something or tries to do something or tries to make you do something that is outside of the bible or is outside of um

37:47

Of your conviction you need to let them know that you need to let their staff know that because christ is your ultimate authority Not this person and I think that would bring like a safeguard to someone trying to manipulate someone

37:56

When they say god told me this you should do this for this reason, right? Okay No, that's good. Just one one thing just last thing before you jump on the next topic when it comes to the issue of authority

38:05

Hebrews 13 17 says obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as they will

38:12

Give an account let them do this with joy and not with groaning as they would have no advantage over you so the new testament just They just there's always assumed continuity within the new testament.

38:22

It always assumes that there's going you there's Leaders that you should be under but specifically This isn't talking about leaders in a ywam base is talking about leaders in the local church um, are you think ywam as a whole should do could do a better job as far as making sure that There's a local church that they not that they're just part they're partnering with that They're submitting themselves under the authority of biblically qualified elders

38:48

Because I think that's any because anytime from my perspective all the times i've been in ministry Like I could my pastors probably have a whole

38:55

Collateral damage list of people who've decided they've been called into ministry But trying to operate outside of being under the role of shepherds and biblically qualified elders

39:04

And that just leads to a train wreck. I mean are there areas in which ywm could get better at that?

39:09

What are your thoughts on that? um the bases that I've been a part of for the most long period of time have done a really good job at that and Almost every day or almost at every meeting we have we have someone like that from the community here um

39:25

I do think that there are probably bases that could do a much better job at doing that because it is within the structure

39:31

Um, and the format of what a base does you're supposed to have those things and that that influence from the community

39:36

Um do certain bases do it better than others? I think so Um the bases that i've been a part of I think do a good job of implementing that kind of authority.

39:45

Um, But i'm sure that there are bases that don't do a good job. Okay Andrew, do you have any thoughts on that before we jump on to the next topic or are you good?

39:53

I'm good. Okay Good. Um, so next question I had is just uh really in regards to one of our pat one of the reasons for me to why this is a passion topic is that really

40:02

Right now the conversations surrounding the quote -unquote deconstruction the ex -evangelical movement

40:08

I mean, this has been a big issue by just not too long ago, uh, john cooper, uh from skillet

40:14

He was very uh vocal and uh up front kind of talking about his issues with deconstruction and there are even people who had

40:23

Uh who have deconstructed kind of very popular notable figures people like derek webb Uh, he was part of the group caben's call was kind of there's controversies surrounding that uh people like our friend elisa chillers has done a lot on that topic, but Specifically when it comes to why wham and a lot of people in those groups people who'll be listening to this episode

40:42

A lot of them are utilizing the abuses in why wham as Their catalyst to deconstruct now ultimately, uh from a christian perspective, you know, that is apostasy

40:54

Uh, it's a banning price and this is the parable of the terrors when they come across trials and tribulation ultimately

41:00

Right when they stand before a holy anyone who's deconstructed and I and I love these people who've done that I care

41:05

I care for all of you if you're listening in That if you stand when you die and you stand before a holy god, you're not going to be able to utilize.

41:12

Uh, well I had this happen at why wham therefore that gave me the reason to reject you like that's not going to suffice on the day of judgment

41:20

However, I think the church as a whole and ministries as a whole when abuse happens though There is a responsibility that we have

41:29

As christian as the church when stuff goes wrong that we have to own it We have to address it and it has to fix it and that's one of the things too um

41:37

When you look at romans 2 verse 24 and when paul's talking about kind of really making his case against those who have the law

41:43

But I feel like this really hits home where it says as it is written God's name is blaspheme among the gentiles because of you in all reality, there are a lot of people who are utilizing kind of using their experiences as as why wham to Shake their fists in many ways blaspheme god.

42:01

Uh now and like how do we from your perspective and your passion about apologetics? Like how do we address the issue of deconstruction?

42:08

But especially in relation to why wham I'd like to hear your thoughts on that man Yeah, um super passionate about it.

42:16

Um, me and my best friend started a podcast about two and a half years ago Simply just addressing this topic.

42:21

It's called the things you don't hear in church podcast and we did it because most of our friends growing up had had some kind of emotional experience something that had happened to them and that feeling brought along intellectual questions that They saw as enough evidence to deconstruct their faith and leave christianity, right?

42:41

Not to say that everybody that deconstructs leaves christianity. It's a complicated term, but Um for sure in this instance, we're talking about people who are apostates leave the faith, right?

42:51

Um Yeah, I think if we were going to look into why wham and why this happens and why wham

42:58

I would need like specific examples I think it's a huge thing in our culture right now. There's so much

43:03

Misinformation, especially on tiktok where it's most popular With like all the hashtags and deconstruction and exegesis and evangelical and stuff like that.

43:10

There's so much misinformation um going around that it's hard for Apologists to even keep up and get out like the correct information out there because it's honestly not as popular like people love outrage and they love people they love things being like Revealed and exposed right?

43:27

And so a lot of this thing where someone could post something They're like, I know why the bible isn't right or why it's not infallible for this and this reason, right?

43:36

These are brand new. No one's ever thought of before that goes viral, right? And someone responding to that is going to get like 10 000 views

43:42

You know what? I mean like nothing compared to the millions that the other one got So I think it's very trendy right now to have that going on on tiktok and stuff like that.

43:50

Um Definitely something we as a church need to be training people in and responding to um in a good way but would you want to give me some examples when it comes to why wham of how

44:01

Um people are deconstructing from whylam are you talking about like their experience that they had of abuse and whylam or They just went to dts and then they left and all of a sudden they're deconstructing because i've got different answers

44:12

Well, it just all gives give one specific example and it really depends on like what do you actually do?

44:18

with this situation um for like for me, so just and i'll transparently personally, I mean some people might have been a little bit sad what

44:24

I about what I said previously about You know your your what you experience is not going to be excused before holy god on the day of judgment

44:31

That's true But I can tell you for me for myself personally as a man who's 40 years old and grew i'm growing up in the evangelical church you name the deconstruction any so many of the deconstruction stories that are out there and that shared oh,

44:47

I saw this this and this happened like I I I can identify with that like almost every every tangible point of A lot of these stories and I don't want this to be all about me

44:57

But a lot of these stories that people give as a recent deconstruct like I have that i've experienced that i've had

45:03

You know i've had people that you know that i'm still in ministry now where we hurt each other We had a falling out for two years where I was really hurt by them um, i've seen you know tremendous amount of hypocrisy, uh in churches i've seen people who were uh, unfairly, uh shamed because of what they did and people who were

45:21

Uh sort of thrown under the bus because it made the brand look bad Rather than actually like dealing with them as broken people

45:27

I've seen that like I could have I could take my story everything from my family of origin to what i've been through Oh, I have ever

45:35

I would have every reason in the world to deconstruct Like that's but I was what do you choose to do with that?

45:41

Like what's my catalyst for? We don't like what's my orthodoxy for suffering? Like god has had all those things happen to me to work it out for my good

45:47

But um, yeah a lot of people uh one specifically one and if you have thoughts one it was it was a podcast

45:53

I listened to And it was a group that went to china And this guy had a lot of he was a leader and he had a lot of expectations about um

46:04

You know how how is going to run and there's stuff that was mismanaged where they thought they're going to be this one place for Three months they end up having to be there for six months

46:11

And then there's times where they had to really scrap and scavenge for food and it was something It was like a really stressful environment, but they they used the aspects of mismanagement um

46:22

And they just use it as a point to kind of just being bitter about the whole experience And they came back and they were just very upset very

46:31

Disenfranchised and there's been times. Otherwise that example they gave you to someone who's in that confessional That sort of situation of that sort of forced coerced confession not to say that that person, uh that person specifically, uh

46:44

Deconstructed but there are a lot of people that use an experience like that If you listen to a lot of the negative ywam podcast that utilize that and say oh, this is the reason why

46:54

This is what was an abuse of it. This is who god is and I want nothing to do with that um, or or even like even the trauma of Having to you know go back after being there for six months of the dts and not knowing how to associate in the normal world

47:11

Yeah, they don't really have an orthodoxy for suffering or how to handle that until they just walk away jaded Those would just be some examples andrew.

47:17

Do you have any examples as well, too? Uh, not not necessarily.

47:23

I think you covered pretty much the examples I was thinking of that last one was the one I was just thinking of is the whole jaded and then going into deconstruction

47:30

Yeah, um, I think it would be interesting too while you're while you're going over what jerry asked uh to kind of explain in terms as well if if possible like Idolatry and deconstructing right like people's uh

47:44

Expectations or placing something in front of god that isn't god And then those things failing and then they're deconstructing from something that wasn't even god to begin with is yeah

47:53

It's kind of helpful as well. But yeah, go go into it. Derry. Yeah, I was definitely gonna mention that for sure

47:59

Um before I talk about that though, give me an example of ywam. I think a lot of people

48:05

Come into their dts and it's Like their parents sent them there. They didn't really have like an awesome relationship with the lord

48:11

But their parents sent them to their dts their life gets changed, right? They read the bible for the first time maybe and they start to realize these things are true, right?

48:20

And then they're like wow, like this is awesome. Like I have a relationship with god. I'm reading my bible i'm praying um, and then a leader abuses them on outreach like um is too authoritarian

48:32

Or authoritarian at all right or an extreme like sexually assaults somebody right?

48:37

Um, like those things have happened and um Now your only view of like where you first met god

48:45

And you're such still such a young believer is now tainted and you just associate that with this abuse

48:50

That can be something that's very hard for someone to start to try to disassociate Christianity with this abuse that happened to them because they came in the same place

48:59

Right not saying that christianity only exists in y -o -a -m, but it's where this person experienced it, right?

49:05

Yeah, and so it can be very hard for this person emotionally to separate those two experiences And say okay.

49:11

I love god and i'm going to like go after him. Um and not always think about like This abuse that has happened to them

49:18

It can happen where someone can separate those two things happens all the time Someone continues to have a relationship with god and moves past the abuse and gets healing, right?

49:26

Um, but definitely can happen and does happen and has happened in y -o -a -m, right? um when it comes to what you were saying,

49:33

I loved your point on we can make idols of things and We can put people in positions of leadership

49:40

Even if they're not portraying themselves that way as idols in our lives to where when they mess up We're like is this all real even like this was the person

49:48

I had held on the highest pedestal of like sinlessness or Even if it's not viewed as sinlessness as like a the man or the woman of god and I looked up to them and they were

49:59

My example and if they failed if they don't believe in this anymore, or if they deconstructed or if they abused me

50:06

They're not good. Like yeah, this none of this must be real, right? And yeah, I I think that's totally true for my own self when

50:13

I had that psychologist. Um, my counselor, uh, spiritually abused me yeah, um,

50:18

I If my Relationship with god wasn't in such a good place

50:23

I didn't know Who I was serving if I didn't have a personal relationship with my savior if I hadn't read the bible before If I was young in my faith, that would be my representation that pastor would be my representation of God to me, you know what

50:35

I mean? If I hadn't formulated and I wasn't actually worshiping the one true god like that That might have been a conflation that I would have made in my mind and it might have been a much harder thing for me

50:44

To get over but because I knew who I was worshiping because I understood who god is and I had a relationship with him

50:50

It was easier for me to separate. This is somebody who is a christian who did a bad thing and didn't represent christ well

50:56

And i'm over here and that i'm still a christian and i'm separating those two things from happening but I could only do that because I was

51:03

More of a mature christian and it's much harder for someone who's a newer christian to do something like that No, I would and I would agree with you too, especially uh when it comes to the issue of spiritual abuse, you know

51:14

We had someone on brielle decker who was one of the former wives of warren jeffs Um and and her growing up in her environment.

51:22

She saw you know, warren jeffs as the prophet of god And you talk about someone who leaves the flds but you you grow up your idea of god is this prophet who's basically saying he's in touch with him and he is

51:34

And it's god's will for you to have sex with him when he's when you're under age Like there's a lot of unthinking that has to go on and I and I get that too

51:42

In fact, um, you know, I think one of the other issues that was brought up. There was one example that had someone had given um somewhere in one of the message threads there is a apparently at one of the bases there is a case of Sexual assault and there's a failure to report it to the police now given

51:58

You know, you always want to take you know A matter must be established by two three lined, you know The matter must be established by two to three lines of testimony and witness

52:04

But the reality is you know, if that indeed did happen, there's two issues there if it wasn't reported to the police There's major issues there with any ministry where as soon as a crime is actually committed

52:14

That needs to be taken then becomes issue where you have to report that to the authorities when that doesn't happen there are a lot of churches get themselves in trouble, but Then all of a sudden someone's going to experience god on the on the outskirts, but then this happens

52:29

They don't know what to do with that and their view of god. It gets distorted. And so I think there's a level where As serious as these issues are we need to also look at the people who've experienced spiritual abuse, you know with both ownership but also a level of compassion and understanding that You know if this indeed happened like this wasn't god to begin with but I think that's that's something that's very very

52:51

Important, especially in this discussion Yeah, and being even clearer like with y -o -a -m like if an abuse happens at y -o -a -m

53:04

Sorry, yeah If an abuse is happening in y -o -a -m then all of a sudden you you run across the problem of not only were they abused in y -o -a -m, but now they go back to Probably go back to their original culture where they didn't have the same kind of community and they've got to find a community to come around themselves um to be able to have a healthy relationship with christ and so It's it's even more of a hard process to go through where you can feel alone

53:29

After you've already been abused by leaving the community that you're in in y -o -a -m So it's even even a further step of complicating the issue

53:36

When it comes to that person being sexually assaulted That's a failure by the base 100 and they need to be held accountable.

53:41

Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, I guess you've got uh, how much more time do you have? five minutes five minutes

53:49

I figure i'll figure out that time So I think this is sort of the question that we ended on our series with haley and alex

53:54

Um, so when it came to the whole issue surrounding deconstruction and also a popular podcast that came out

54:00

A couple months back was the rise and fall of mars hill. Um, definitely I think we did a podcast kind of critiquing it.

54:07

I think i'll call i'll be fair and call balls and strikes I think there's things they got right I think there's areas which they definitely Kind of went down the avenue progressed the christianity that we took issue with in that episode

54:16

But I think one of the things they brought up correctly When it came to the whole issue surrounding mars hill church and when it fell is that you know with all

54:25

The good that was going on Uh that you know people's lives are being changed people are being saved people being baptized, you know

54:32

The community is changing where you know people all around the world being down are downloading our podcasts being blessed by it

54:38

There was that there is this level of collateral damage that was continuing to accrue

54:43

And there's sort of this attitude. Well, look at all the good that god's doing All the good that god is doing the show must go on but they they kind of raised the question at what point?

54:53

Can you justify? um All this collateral damage at the expense of quote -unquote what god is dealing and at least

55:00

Haley and alex's perspective by the time they'll you would have heard it by the time this podcast dropped

55:05

I'll just tell you just since you're here is that they kind of said that why they said why we have a best case scenario

55:12

Needs to like take a breather like and just to kind of look at itself critique itself internally

55:17

Just pump the brinks for a little bit Put it on hold So I guess the question would be because I don't think as a cultist we're not the end -all solution here like We want to be able to create a conversation that can be constructive

55:31

But kind of given given the fact that even cultish is sort of something i'm not cold But why we kind of came to our desk here at cold just for us to take a look at it like Given the context of spiritual abuse and why it's sort of become like a topic for us to deal with Like what do you think?

55:46

Ywam should do I mean there's some people who kind of see like Oh, they want to go down in flames or the people they'd say. Oh, they need to take a break internally

55:52

But yeah for someone who's on staff like what do you think ywam needs to do? Like what if they're at the crossroads, what should ywam do?

56:00

Yeah. Yeah a great question. I don't think you could ever do Like too much self -reflection and too much self -evaluation for if you're doing things, right, right

56:10

So I think if the culture is coming up and if your students are coming up and saying these things are happening

56:15

Then you gotta listen and you gotta address them and see if there's validity to it And you gotta look at your structures and you gotta evaluate and see if we're doing something wrong, right?

56:24

I personally don't think there's a systematic problem within ywam. Other people could definitely disagree with me and that's totally fine

56:31

Um, I think ywam is very serious about this and we have a lot of people who often talk about it Us as staff talk about it all the time.

56:39

Um, because we we love the lord. We don't want people to get hurt, right? We're all like serious christians who come from a lot of different backgrounds and we don't want people to be abused

56:46

Um, and in all my conversations, I haven't seen a systematic problem I've seen individuals abusing power.

56:53

Um, and then that power being taken away from them and I don't Um, I don't see more checks and balances that we can put into place when it comes to different ways of stopping that spiritual abuse now

57:05

I'm sure there are some bases where they do need to implement checks and balances that should already be implemented

57:11

And that's where you see a lot of people falling through the cracks and being abused in my opinion. Okay When it comes to Spiritual abuse on the whole though.

57:21

I think it's just an issue that the church deals with I think ywam definitely deals with it the church deals with it.

57:27

Um, and I think you would be hard pressed to Statistically show me that there isn't

57:35

The same amount of spiritual abuse within ywam that there is in just the church as a whole, right? And now that's not to say that i'm invalidating anybody's experience people are abused people do need to be held accountable for their abuse and this exists within the church and within ywam and Things need to systematically be addressed if there are problems within churches and within ywam

57:57

Needs to be addressed needs to happen. Um, I don't see a large gap in that abuse

58:05

Just being natural within fallen human beings Um between church and ywam there could be one if there's a study done i'll totally recant my statement but that's been my experience that There seems to be the same level of abuse within the church as within ywam and we need to address it the same way

58:22

Okay That's a great. I appreciate that man That's a great answer and I I really appreciate you coming on to kind of give your perspective advantage point

58:30

I'm sure this is going to be i'm really looking forward to the feedback from this conversation. Uh, just real quickly

58:35

I'm going to do you a favor. I'm going to give you a shout out What's the name of the podcast if people want to find out more about you? What's the name of the podcast where they can kind of find out more about you?

58:43

Yeah, we're everywhere. We're on spotify all the places that you could be on it's called Things you don't hear in church podcast or tydhc

58:52

Um or tydhc media on youtube. Um, but things you don't hear in church everywhere else.

58:57

We're on tiktok. We have a big instagram Big instagram for for our size.

59:03

We do reels all that kind of stuff. Yeah, check us out. Excellent All right. Well, thanks for coming on here

59:08

Now i'm going to let you uh get about your busy day and if you guys really enjoyed this episode so much Absolutely, man.

59:13

Absolutely. It was absolute pleasure So if you guys enjoyed this episode, uh, we don't even need to ask you Uh, go to the comment section let us know what you thought about our conversation with dairy who is an active uh

59:24

Staff member at ywam and we definitely appreciate you giving your vantage point and perspective And as always a program like this cannot continue without your support.

59:31

So if you want to support coldest help more Content like this happen go to the cultist show .com

59:37

go to the donate tab. You can donate one time more monthly So all that being said we'll talk to you guys next time on cultist where you enter into the kingdom of the cults