Responding to Rome Including a Review of Indulgentiarum Doctrina

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00:32

And greetings and welcome to the divine I should have closed that door. I didn't close that door watch this This is you wanna know how live we are

00:42

Not only that not only do I have to close the door for that but The hard drive on a certain piece of equipment in another room needs to be replaced and There's a guy who works on here.

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It knows about that, but he hasn't done it for like months and And so it everyone's false just starts beeping beeping beeping.

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It's really annoying and it's beeping so I'd have to close the door Anyways, I won't mention who it is because I'm supposed to be nice to him

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Anyway, we're throwing a quick program in here very very quick Because I was looking at my travel

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I started it's a nine -day trip, which is barely a trip for me these days I think May is 33 days.

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So yeah nine -day trip Up to Salt Lake City and back via Cedar City I'll be speaking at Southern Utah University twice

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Wednesday and Thursday of this week and then Saturday is the debate in Salt Lake City. I'll be preaching twice on Sunday and Then on Monday, I'll be a just a nobody attending the celebration of 25 years of ministry in Salt Lake City for Jason Wallace who also

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Seems to like to rent sports cars to do his

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You know that the people who used to drive around or ride around and do circuit preaching were named mainly the

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Methodists But this is a Presbyterian Doing the circuit riding driving thing.

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Anyways, that'll be on Monday in Salt Lake City 25 years of ministry.

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He's a youngin, you know, we're we're doing 40. He's doing 25 Hey, you know, but many of you have benefited from the cooperation between us and and Jason Wallace up in Salt Lake City, Utah and We used to do a lot more debates

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Until the last one we did No, I don't mean I don't mean the what

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I don't mean the the radiator fluid what We used to do a lot of Mormon debates in Salt Lake City and and Then we debated

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Dr. Potter and You know what when the guy walked in the room

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I I went hmm With a no war in Iraq thing on his backpack and earrings

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I And it that was a very very interesting debate and of course

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Dennis Potter is now Kelly Potter Mm -hmm.

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Yeah. Yeah So, yeah that was Yeah, that was that was really really

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That was a thing It's a thing and It was after that debate

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That I had a guy I don't know who it was a guy came up to me I remember what side the it's really weird I could see the room was over on this side of the stage

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This guy comes up to me and he says I've attended all the debates you all have put on up here And he says

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I want to ask you to please stop debating Mormons up here I'm like what and he's like We don't have anyone who can debate you doesn't make you right, but we don't have anyone who can debate you and So we would

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I just think the right thing to do is you stop debating words, I guess he got to somebody

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Because that was pretty much it for the Mormon debates in Salt Lake City for a long long time and Especially once you had

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Kelly Potter Sort of like yeah, okay. That's how things go. So that's what's coming up this this this weekend

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It's a little bit of weather coming through it doesn't look like more than an inch at most two inches of snow

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At any point in time and You know, I 15 and stuff should be fine.

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I should be okay I'm hoping but it'll be you know It's it's it's

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Utah and it's the end of March beginning of April though I'd I I'm not sure

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I could even hear rich if he did answer, but I Don't think we ever got snowed on.

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In fact, we normally had really nice weather for almost every general we dodged all sorts of stuff because the old saying was when the

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Saints meet the heavens weep and yet I Don't remember

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We may have had a few rain showers, but I don't remember any snow. For example, I remember a couple times

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It was pretty nippy But then other times it was really nice and warm. So I Don't know

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There was one in early April that yeah, put your airplane piece in Yes, there was one in early

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April where we really got surprised and it was just freezing We had to run across the street to the mall and buy tickets.

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Yep. Yep. Remember this? Yeah, I did. Yep. You're right Yep, that's true. That's you're right.

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We had to run over when there was still a mall there. There isn't anymore But I don't know how they did that by the way.

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I mean that was a big mall I mean it was it was huge and And it's gone. Um, I wonder

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I wonder if the earthquake had anything to do with that. Hmm. Hmm interesting Anyway, yeah,

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I think yeah, I do remember that now I do remember now that there was one time that we got caught

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But We normally had really good weather So anyways, that's what's coming up and I will be on the first leg of my journey north

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Of course back when we were young we did that in one shot and I will do it in three shots now that I'm older and wiser and and Do not want to cause my guardian angel any more

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Heart attacks than I already have when I was younger doing stupid stuff like that. So that's where we're going

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So that's why we threw it in here today Was I'm a little concerned that I won't have time.

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I might still have time and it all just sort of depends on how big Yeah, right how big a response, you know, maybe there's maybe something

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I say today who knows We'll have some type of response and we need to respond to it and we'll do something then.

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We'll see We'll see the the we haven't even started. We haven't gotten the bed out yet. So there's no there's no

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Studio in the new unit yet, but I did get a new light So we can we can do it. We will be doing program from up there

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Don't worry, but it'll just be at the kitchen table as it has always been except it's a different kitchen table

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And just quick reminder we are still letting you know of our need to Be able to to do the studio to finish paying off the unit

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And things like that. And so if you go to donate at a omen org, there's a let's go to a min dire or there's a

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Donate thing. There's a pull down menu and there's a the bottom one is the Traveling studio fund

08:23

Razor and we still are hoping will I believe have some things to Make available to people in the future

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To help with that Fundraising as well. So keep that in in mind. I said on the last program

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That I'm still This book is sort of to me the obscurity of scripture by Casey chalk

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It's it's it reminds me of how often you see on Twitter someone saying making a comment.

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They said the quiet part out loud and it's true The obscurity of scripture

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It still surprises me I mean, okay the old -style

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Roman Catholics the Pre -vatican to the

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Papal syllabus of errors Roman Catholics would have spoken this way clearly sure the obscurity of scripture.

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Yeah, you bet You can't you that's it's too dangerous for you to read that stuff by yourself. You know, you need the church but one of the

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Tricks of The modern Roman Catholic apologetics movement is to use our language

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You know, for example Nobody Utilize the kind of vocabulary language

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Before Scott Hahn that Scott Hahn uses, you know, Scott Hahn has has tried to transport so much

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Presbyterianism Straight across that there are Roman Catholics that that go. Yeah, they're really not.

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Yeah But there's there was really a concerted effort early on by Catholic answers to utilize language that would

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Emphasize similarities shall we say and now we have the obscurity of scripture and I made the comment on The last program that there were some problems

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With the book and I I don't know if Casey I don't get the feeling that Casey Chalk is gonna care one way or the other but I did want to respond to The places where I was mentioned in the book.

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There was no interaction with any of my arguments just really bland references

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So here's here's first of them. This is Kindle edition. I didn't bother to look to see if it actually because most the time you probably have the same

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Experience I do Most of the time. Yeah, it's not gonna it's not gonna match up. Yeah, the

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Kindle says page 171 of 363 There's nothing on page 171 in the actual print book

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So And there's no index. Wow, that's interesting

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There is no index at all in This book so looking up where this would be

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I could find it, but I'm not overly Concerned about one or the other so and in the

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Kindle edition its page page 171 Quote other times the allegation can be a bit more pointed exchanging the first person plural we

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For the third person plural they and even the second person you for example Reform pastor

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Sam Storms observes that some people hold erroneous interpretations of Bible knowingly out of fear of some negative

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Consequence or to justify their own sin personal prejudice lack of education laziness or some other factor reformed historian

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DG Hart in turn has labeled Catholics has

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In turn has labeled Catholics of being intentionally elusive and jesuitical in their interpretations of the

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Bible I don't think that was written correctly Could be a typo in the Kindle edition Even more directly popular reformed apologist.

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Well, well used to be popular popular apologist James White has accused those who reject

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Protestant interpretations of Scripture in favor of Catholic ones of being ignorant of Scripture and even quote traitors to the gospel and quote

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I I read that and I went

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Hmm There are all sorts of Protestant interpretations of Scripture that I disagree with all the time so that that's not really my language and I wouldn't speak of Protestant interpretations and in favor of Catholic ones as if there's just all bunches of which there are because Rome Wants to on the one side say you can't understand

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Scripture without our guidance and then on the other hand say No, it could mean this it could mean that well, you don't know there's never been an infallible interpretation given and blah blah blah blah

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Which is part of a very frustrating thing So I thought this is strange.

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And so I I clicked on the on the Link, it's footnote number 36

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And it says there's there's two James White and then the article is

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Jason Stellman's unmitigated disaster Alvin Omega Ministries, October 4th, 2014 and Then it says see

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James White response to Jason Stellman Alvin Omega Ministries, July 25th 2012 So there's two blog articles that are referenced the first one if you click on it doesn't come up and that's because and I found out just today that in I Don't know how you do this copying it over but a dash

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Was missed in the first reference. So if mr. Chalk does happen to be informed of this

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It's Jason dash Stellman's dash Unmitigated dash disaster that the one before unmitigated has been lost.

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So the link doesn't work So again, I haven't checked the printed edition to see if it has the same problem

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Well, what's interesting is it says see James White response to Jason Stellman July 25th 2012, that's not me

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Click on it. It's Turretinfan Turretinfan is the one that wrote the

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July 25th 2012 article. So that wasn't me and I don't think the word traitor appeared in there instead

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That appears in the first article which is actually from two years later, this is

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The conversion takes place in 2012, I guess and in 2014 evidently

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I was in Ukraine and If that sounds odd to you given what's going on there

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I used to go there all the time Before the war started and I did find

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The term traitor But here's You know look it up yourself

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Here here's here's the context and this is sometimes this is what Makes me sometimes go.

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Why do people put stuff like this in books? I Don't I think people are gonna check it out anyway

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Uh Stellman had written The last two years have brought me almost nothing but loss most of my fellow alumni and former professors at Westminster Seminary No longer speak to me to which

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I responded excuse me, but aside from seeking to bring you to repentance, why should they and Given your utter collapse in a

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Roman solipsism so that you can read indulge NTRM doctrina one of the most offensive sub -christian apostolic documents ever produced and Respond with well if there is a papacy then it follows

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Why should anyone invest the effort? Now remember for those of you

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This was right before the country started falling apart and the division started taking place and Right as safe spaces started to pop up and all the weirdness that we're now dealing with and back then

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You could talk to people directly and as everyone knew who was reading this article

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Jason Stellman had come to this office Had walked right behind that camera there right through that door and sat in that office right over there

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And I had been very straightforward with him We had discussed solis cratoria, but then

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I had been very straightforward with him. I'd said you're a Presbyterian minister you hope you have Professed to hold the

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Westminster confession of faith you have preached that your sins are forgiven

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And that the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to you that's how you have peace with God and that's what you've told other people and that's what you've preached at funerals and everything else and You are telling me that this drivel that you've got about what what happened after the last

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Apostles died is sufficient to cause you To abandon all of that to deny the gospel of grace and to climb on to the penitential treadmill

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Where you're you're always going but you never get there Because the reason for the uncertainty the state of grace lies in just this that no one could know is certain today fulfilled all the conditions

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Which are necessary for achieving justification according to Ludwig Ott. That's a quotation. I think it was probably straight -up accurate

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Um, so I was straightforward with him and I said hey and by the way if you cross the

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Tiber you need to go all the way Don't do any of this liberal liberal stuff

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If you're gonna become Roman Catholic, then you need to do the Mary stuff you go all the way so I've been very very straightforward with him and I Would hope that he would admit that that was the case.

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I haven't heard of I haven't heard of A whisper About Jason Stellman in many many years.

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I have no earthly idea what he's up to. I don't know if the drunken expastors podcast is

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Still a thing or not Let's hope it isn't but it might be anyway

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So there was a background to all this conversation then he wrote so Jason Stellman wrote

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I Am denied entrance into the church I planted where my family still attends on Sundays.

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God bless him. That's my commentary. I Wasn't even allowed to attend the Christmas Eve service last year and just sit and sing the hymns

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To most of my old Calvinistic friends. I am simply a traitor to the gospel.

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So who wrote traitor to the gospel? Jason Stellman did and So I'm responding to his language and I say

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Of course, how else could it be? apostasy has consequences you abandon your vows deny the gospel of grace embrace the papal system and Promote it by your speeches and writings and think you will be welcome in the church.

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You almost single -handedly crippled Your very presence would be divisive troubling and distracting even if you didn't say a word

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But can't you see it your presence given your positive profession of Rome's teachings would be a breach of the fellowship of the church

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Your final sentence truly explains it all you are a traitor to the gospel Jason. I warned you of that in my office

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I made it clear remember You actually believe that to be true apostasy has consequences

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You are surprised that we find you someone who needs to repent and abandon your error

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That the church you had been entrusted with leading would rather not have a shepherd turned wolf wandering amongst the sheep

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Is that really all that difficult to understand? So You know,

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I I just get the feeling that chalk all chalk knows about anything we've done on solo scriptura is not that Who knows how many debates we've done with Roman Catholics on the topic?

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But just That article didn't even get the other articles author right? says right there on the website

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Turretin fan, by the way, but We're not we're not talking about Solo scriptura here.

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I mean, okay. It's one of the many things but that's not what you're talking about. He's the one who's complaining that to most of my old

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Calvinistic friends, I am simply a traitor to the gospel and I'm explaining. Well, why would that be?

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You you were once a a minister. I mean this would be like being well, anyway, the point is

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I was using his language and So I don't understand why in the context of even more directly popular foreign apologist

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James White has accused Those that's a plural. This is an individual person Who reject

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Protestant interpretation of scripture and faithful Catholic ones of being ignorant scripture and even traitors to the gospel That would only be relevant to a ordained minister who once professed

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Fidelity to the gospel and then threw it all away Which is what

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Jason Stelman did so that was like Okay, that's a little bit weird

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You know a couple problems with the citations and it's somebody else That actually ends up being cited here.

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And then the only other reference is Found Page 329 of 363 again, who knows whether that's even close and this is under Objection number nine

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No magisterial consensus on what counts as magisterial or tradition and I'm quoting from the book now

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Finally many Protestants object that there is no consensus among Catholics regarding what counts as authoritative magisterial teaching or authoritative tradition well, obviously if it's been dogmatized

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But normally this objection is That the claim of tradition is this wonderfully nebulous thing

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And so I can I can debate gerrymatitics and I can quote from Tertullian and he can go from Tertullian and what he quotes from the

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Tertullian is supportive tradition and what I quote from Tertullian isn't supportive tradition and He can just dismiss

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My citations, but I allegedly have to accept the authority of his Or anything in early church fathers because we'll cite we'll cite

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Popes Against later Popes. It's not part of tradition. So you've got this really really nebulous

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Concept of tradition and when you ask well, what is the oral tradition passed on from the

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Apostles? Well That only comes to light When the church is led to make clear dogmatic definitions and so Evidently the last time that there was a real need to know something of this body of tradition

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Handed on by the Apostles to the church was in the defining of the bodily assumption of Mary.

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I don't know about you, but there's There's a bunch of topics these days that if there was some kind of Apostolic tradition

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Be really nice to know What Apostles said it how was this passed down to us?

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How long has this been known? You know, there's lots and lots of stuff going on in the world today. And instead we're getting

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Francis's liberation theology. You really think liberation theology came from the Apostles? Nope, I don't

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I Think most of you probably recognize you wouldn't want to be put in a position of trying to prove that Anyway So I go back to reading him

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Addressing the former evangelical scholars Norman Geiser and Ralph McKenzie Rhetorically argue if an infallible teaching magisterium is needed to overcome the conflicting interpretations of Scripture Why is it that even these supposedly fallible?

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Decisive Decisive declarations of the magisterium are also subject to conflicting interpretations The two authors claim that these opposing interpretations which are not universally accepted among Catholics Demonstrate the indecisive nature of supposedly infallible pronouncements.

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They also say somewhat similar regarding tradition quote Apostolic tradition is nebulous as has often been pointed out never has the

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Roman Catholic Church given a complete and exhaustive list of the contents Of oral tradition. It is not dared to do so because this oral tradition is such a nebulous entity

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That is to say even if all extra biblical revelation Definitely exists somewhere in some tradition as Catholics claimed which ones these are has nowhere been declared that's end of the quotation from Geiser and McKenzie and then

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Similar arguments can be found in other contemporary critiques of Catholicism Including Roman but not

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Catholic by Collins and Walls and the writings of Protestant apologist James White and that's it well

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Yeah Yeah, I've It's a it's a valid.

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It's a valid point. It's it's valid. There's not really No, we could interact with what his argument is here, but that's that's all it says that that's all they're all that's all there is for me, so and It as I was looking this up.

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I Couldn't help But Notice once again, and it's been a long long long long long time

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Since I have mentioned this at all, but first of all

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It is it is interesting I I Saw something on Twitter Where someone was saying something about purgatory and Credo magazine it rang a faint little bell and then as I was looking for this the bell started became a gong and I found an article that I wrote for credo.

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I think in 2013 so it's Been about a decade ago

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Where I was asked to respond to walls and his Protestant version of purgatory and so I did

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I've still got it and I Can't help but go

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Back then I was not asked to address the subject from the position of the great tradition

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Because it's sort of hard Not to it's sort of hard to argue against the idea

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That purgatory is a part of the great tradition isn't it and In fact, let me just comment here.

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I'll come back to this because I do want to address indulgent your own doctrina But I was just thinking this morning.

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I was seeing some stuff From my you know, I'm hearing a lot about how my fellow

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Baptists in Various seminaries not all but in various seminaries are doing what they can to try to insulate their students from me

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Telling people I believe things I don't believe and they know it's come on guys, you know You know it in your heart of hearts but telling telling students

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I believe things I don't believe and and just just trying to minimize whatever impact

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I might have because the fact matter is What we've been teaching for years and years and years here would be an impediment

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To anyone who is seeking to change the trajectory of a seminary away from one that is very biblicist in a historically knowledgeable and reformed fashion to well a

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Perspective that I may get to later on. I'm not sure a perspective that 20 years ago we were engaging fairly regularly with When there was a a brief renaissance of a reformed

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Catholicism Reformed Catholicism, this was after the federal vision stuff and We we went

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Fork and tong at that for quite some time as well, and it never goes away there is

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I'm thinking of a a certain bearded reformed

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Baptist seminary student on Twitter that has become just Enraptured with Thomas and I noticed recently his avatar has changed to a a

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Not a I might be a I don't know But a drawing of his face

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Wearing the clothes that you will normally see in an Eastern Orthodox icon

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This is a reformed Baptist and I certainly noticed it

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I'm sitting there going Yeah, okay

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We're seeing this this kind of stuff and I let me just let me say it again infant baptism

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Is the great tradition? Will anyone argue that?

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I mean I can argue that that means the great tradition doesn't go back to the Apostles because There's that big old gap and then there's the development and there's the delay of baptism.

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There's all that Church history stuff that you got to get into back there in the primitive period

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But once you get the great great tradition It's it's pedo -baptist and it's it's it's pedo -baptist for reasons that believing

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Presbyterians could not embrace either And so If you're a

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Baptist and you try to Do the great tradition thing? You're not a pedo -baptist because you're holding the great tradition up to a standard.

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What was that? What was that? Standard I oh, it's oh the Bible Yeah It makes you a biblicist because you're you're testing the great tradition by by the

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Bible And if you do it there, well Why wouldn't you do it in other places?

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I? Mean you want to try to be consistent. So you're gonna say we're not going to be biblicists in Theology proper, but we will be biblicists in ecclesiology

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Sacramentology soteriology will be biblicists and everything else, but we won't be biblicists here

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Yeah, you know that's not gonna work it's it's just and so I just chuckle every time

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I hear see these guys playing games pretending And it's like if you're gonna be consistent, you're not gonna remain where you are

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You're just not so anyway Indulgentiarum doctrina, sorry

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I Haven't talked about for a long long time and and what's obvious to me is

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The vast majority of my reformed brethren have never read indulgentiarum doctrina It's spelled as it sounds if you know

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Latin look it up. You can pull it right off the Website it's 1967.

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So it's a post -vatican to Apostolic Constitution, and I don't know how much of it

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Francis would actually believe he he proclaimed a

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Bunch of indulgences just last year as I recall but He may just view that as some type of pietistic practice too, but if you actually read it

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And I'm going to have to zoom in on it here Zoom zoom in I'm having to learn how to use all that stuff on computer to make the font bigger

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It's so small anymore I'll be a 640 by 40 resolution before Christmas anyway

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I May read you some sections from angel indulgentiarum doctrina Sins must be expiated this may be done on this earth

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Through the sorrows miseries and trials of this life and above all through death Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments

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The reasons for their imposition are that souls need to be purified? Okay There's a there's a huge and this is why the debate with Peter Stravinsky's was so pivotal and why it was it made a clearer delineation between the gospel of grace and The Roman Catholic gospel then had been made in the debates.

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We'd done on justification by faith How we are perfected how our sins are forgiven

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What expiation means? How expiation is different from propitiation?

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The meaning of the imputed righteousness of Christ, it's all It really comes into focus

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When you look at the doctrine of indulgences We continue on the doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away

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Punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed

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They often are in fact in Purgatory the soul souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are

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Cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt. So this is where you you get different kinds of sins

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Expiation penance The whole sacramental system that developed over a long period of time a very very long period of time it was not really until the 13th 14th century where you finally get all this stuff coming into its primarily its modern form, so Cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt this is in the

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Latin tongue What's known as satis Pacio? The suffering of atonement.

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I've met a lot of Roman Catholics. I will admit Who were unfamiliar with the terminology

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You should be familiar with it Satis Pacio suffering of atonement the document goes on to refer to the

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Saints who have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others

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And the sins of others so here then this is how indulgent yarn doctrina

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Defines the thesaurus meritorium the treasury of the church treasury of merit. Here's the here's the definition

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On the contrary the treasury of the church is the infinite value Which can never be exhausted which

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Christ merits have before God this treasury includes as well The prayers and good works the

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Blessed Virgin Mary They are truly immense unfathomable and even pristine in their value

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Before God in the treasury to are the prayers and good works of all the

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Saints all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and Carried out the mission the

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Father entrusted to them in This way they attain their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the mystical body, so Here you have this thesaurus meritorium the

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Treasury of Merit and It has the excess merits of Christ because as one of the

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Pope said Christ only needed to shed a single drop of blood To propitiate the wrath of God, but since he shed his blood copiously there is this

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Excess merit that comes into existence, but it's not just the merit of Christ It's the immense and unfathomable and even pristine

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Prayers and good works the Blessed Virgin Mary who because she was immaculately conceived

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Did not have the burden of sin and therefore Would be able to commit all sorts of good deeds in a complete state of purity but then all the

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Saints When you die as a saint, which means you have more good works than you have

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Temporal punishments to be purged That excess merit

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That you possess is also placed into the Treasury of Merit and this is where the merit and comes from That an indulgence is a it's a transfer from the

41:15

Treasury of Merit to your own account and That's how These Saints attain their own salvation at the same time

41:25

Cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the mystical body So that's

41:34

That's how this what this works so Indulgence arm doctrina goes on quoting from the papal bull of Boniface the eighth

41:46

For God's only begotten Son has won a treasure for the militant church and has entrusted it to blessed

41:52

Peter The key bearer of heaven and to his successors who are Christ's Vicar's on earth so they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation so here you see all these different threads of development over time coming together so you have

42:09

A blessed Peter the key bearer of heaven key bearer of heaven

42:18

Yeah, I remember that in Scripture. But anyway And to his successors us today which would include

42:26

Pope Boniface the eighth as he's claiming Who are Christ's Vicar's on earth?

42:32

representatives Christ on earth So that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation and for the building of st.

42:39

Peter's Basilica Yes, because that's how it got built By charging money for it which

42:47

Trent Technically sort of stopped sort of in a way so The document continues on and says in addition we ought not to forget that when they try to gain indulgences the faithful submit with docility to the lawful pastors of the church

43:08

Above all they acknowledge the authority of the successor of blessed Peter the key bearer of heaven

43:16

Okay, it continues on to say the beneficial institution of indulgences

43:22

Therefore does its part in bringing it about that the church might be presented to Christ without spot or wrinkle but holy and without blemish excellently united with Christ in the supernatural bond of charity and I thought that's what

43:35

Christ accomplished by his spirit But yes, it is

43:41

Christ doing it by his spirit, but it's through indulgences Which of course no

43:47

Apostle ever even dreamed of But that's what happens when you deny solo scriptura and you embrace tradition

44:06

The document even cites Ephesians 5 27 and Which reads that he might present to himself the church and all her glory having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing

44:15

But that she would be holy and blameless Unfortunately as I commented, this is actually

44:20

I'm reading from the Roman Catholic controversy Unfortunately, the infallible church seems to have missed the context this passage provided by the preceding verses husbands

44:28

Love your wives Just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her

44:33

Having cleansed her by the washing of the water with the word Not by purgatory not by satis facio

44:39

Not by a mixed merit of Christ Mary and the Saints Washing the water with the word and so There you have very clearly

44:53

Just just the massive distinction between the Roman understanding of grace and the biblical understanding of grace

45:07

So it continues on in Fact ingrained indulgence the church used its power as minister of Christ's redemption

45:17

And not only praise it intervenes with its authority dispenses the faithful Provided they have the right dispositions the treasury of satisfaction which

45:27

Christ and the Saints won for the remission of temporal punishments Moreover the religious practice indulgences arouses again confidence and hope that we can be

45:36

Slow down here moreover the religious practice of indulgences arouses again confidence and hope

45:44

That we can be fully reconciled with the Father really

45:51

That's what an indulgence does walk through a special door

45:57

That's only opened up once every few years get an indulgence and that's going to increase your hope and confidence

46:05

That you can be fully reconciled to the Father. Do you see now? Why I say to Roman Catholics All the time, are you the blessed man?

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Are you the blessed man of Romans 4a to whom the Lord will not impute sin?

46:27

Because and So you read Thomas Aquinas he doesn't get it

46:33

He doesn't see it He's talking about different kinds of sin completely misses it all these people.

46:40

Oh, what a wonderful exegesis. I missed it

46:46

Are you the blessed man? Because Paul's argument is every single believer is the blessed man.

46:55

That's how you are in Christ. That's how you have peace That's how that's what the gospel is and if you're not the blessed man, you don't have peace of God an indulgence will not

47:13

Provide confidence and hope that you can be fully reconciled the Father That's what the cross did an indulgence is a distraction from any detraction from The finished work of Christ.

47:28

No question about it. No question Back to indulge in TRM doctrine.

47:35

I wasn't gonna do all this but why not? We've done it. So we're gonna do

47:41

To gain indulgences the work prescribed must be done. But that is not all The faithful must have the dispositions that are necessary These are they must love

47:52

God hate sin trust in Christ's merits and Believe firmly in the great help they obtain from the communion of Saints So those are dispositions you must have

48:08

You must love God, but that's not enough. You must hate sin, but that's not you must trust in Christ's merits, but that's not

48:14

You must believe firmly in the great help they obtain from the communion of Saints. What do you mean the communion of Saints?

48:22

Well that that's how this the Saints are helping to save their brethren is by that excess merit goes into treasury merit now it's good a plenary indulgence applicable only to the dead this is again indulgent

48:37

TRM doctrina a plenary indulgence applicable only the dead can be gained in all churches and public oratories and in semi public oratories by those who have the right to use them on November 2nd on November 2nd a plenary indulgence a

48:56

Withdrawal of grace merit from the Treasury of Merit November 2nd. Hope you make it

49:07

Supported by these truths Holy Mother Church again recommends the practice of indulgences to the faithful the church recommends

49:13

It's faithful not to abandon or neglect the holy traditions of those who have gone before this is indulgent

49:19

TRM doctrina This is post -vatican too. And that's what I said to Jason Solomon You have to believe this

49:27

You can't go halfway you have to believe this stuff and That's why

49:36

I have I say to any person who has claimed to be reformed who then

49:45

Cast their eyes across the Tiber River Starts looking to beautiful buildings

49:52

Marble statues the great tradition and I go this is the great tradition and it's stinks if you can read that document and not be revolted by its denial of the finished work of Christ and the

50:15

Perfection of his righteousness. It's part of the great tradition.

50:24

How do you how do you judge it? Well, that's 1967 the great tradition.

50:30

What are the great traditions stuff? How do you know who gets to judge who gets to judge?

50:38

Who gets to say well on these things here, right? Okay the soteriology

50:44

I mean the material principle of the Reformation was soteriological

50:53

But to substantiate the material sola fide says to substantiate the material very quickly

51:02

Thanks to Johan Eck Luther had to deal and Zwingli Zwingli was already dealing with it as well had to deal with the formal principle the foundational principle because If you believe this

51:22

Then you have no way of going well, that's wrong because of This because what what this is arguing is that this is

51:38

Dangerously unclear and will lead you astray and there's all sorts of pre -vatican 2 quotes

51:47

That I could dig up for you on the danger of the personal interpretation of scripture

51:54

So you can't judge the great tradition based upon this. So How I Need something else.

52:03

Oh, it must be the magisterium of the church, which again right now

52:08

I just Go How are you making this argument right now with Francis?

52:17

How are you doing this? because Anybody who has done almost and well, this is one of the main reasons it's one of the main reasons

52:29

These neo -thomas they may be reading Thomas now They're not reading modern Roman Catholic stuff.

52:35

They're not reading Bellarmine they're not They're not dealing with Kinds of tradition and Newman and all the stuff that got us to where we are today.

52:49

They'll do that once Once they decide to go that direction, but They're not reading this stuff.

52:58

I Wonder how many of these neo -thomas have ever read indulge in charm doctrine. I would just ask you

53:07

My Reform Baptist brethren. Have you read indulge in charm doctrine?

53:15

Show me the formal principle you use by which to evaluate Indulge in charm doctrine and I will show you and I will and I will turn a mirror on you going assist

53:32

Because you it's so it's the only way you can do it Right, so we can do it

53:39

I Way you can do it consistently now, you might be sitting there going well

53:46

You know, I would see here's here's where you're stuck. It's where you stuck because if you want to sit there and go well,

53:55

I Wouldn't allow for the great tradition to go that far if you let it go to the 13th century you're you're gonna be stuck and You know, you have to let it go at least to Thomas right and if it and if it

54:17

If it stopped with Thomas why on what principle what what specific objective?

54:25

Standard you have to say I'm gonna buy the great tradition through Thomas and then

54:35

Is it was the Reformation why would the Reformation be the stopping point

54:42

Because the Reformation rejected so much why would that be the stopping point if you could try to say the great the the

54:53

Reformation was a continuation of the best of the great tradition again by Heard this phrase somewhere before I Don't think

55:03

I've made up this phrase, but by what standard by what standard do you make that decision?

55:16

See I? Since I start with this start here, okay

55:23

Then I can and this is what I've always done and It's all it's what

55:29

I'm gonna keep doing for as long as the Lord allows me to and that's why I am persona non grata in places that I used to be well loved and accepted is

55:41

I start here and that allowed me to You know read

55:46

Augustine and go That's oh, that's good, that's good, and then you turn the page you go yeah clinker

55:55

Clinker Because I do that with modern writers too Because I have a consistent standard because it's unchanging and it happens to be the honest awesome

56:06

God breathed Which does not mean wife giving but that's another issue

56:13

And That's what I've been teaching all along and that's always made me dangerous to anybody who had their own agenda and as long as all of us were heading down the same path and our agenda was let's get the truth out there then

56:33

All good And then all of a sudden you change directions and now it's all good strange how that works so anyway

56:48

One other thing I do need to get to and I should have gotten to it before this But I I wanted to sort of finish that up There is this complete shift of topic here and most people say

57:00

I just wrap it up. It's been an hour I can't Because there's something really

57:11

Amazingly I don't want to use the term frightening God's in control

57:18

But it is I think one of the clearest Examples of the fact that the culture of death is in full control in Western culture and They have decided no more hiding no more going slow.

57:35

This is our shot. We're going to do it now Minnesota California Washington State all of them and let me see here if I have in California this is a b665 a b665

58:06

This was an article from Chris Bray But I've seen it from a number of other sources

58:12

He says I wrote about a b665 last month warning parents that its passage would mean your children can vanish into mental health care facilities

58:23

Residential shelter services is the term being used without your consent This Scott wiener is a part of it if Scott wiener is a part of it.

58:39

It is evil Scott wiener is Without a question one of the most evil men in the

58:48

United States today, I've seen a number of I don't have all of them here, but I saw a number of the

58:58

Photocopies So there's three different bills, but they're all going the same direction and fundamentally

59:08

What these bills now are they gonna pass right now probably not

59:14

If would they end up at the Supreme Court they most certainly would But you just need to understand the

59:23

Supreme Court is It was never meant to be functioning the way it's mentioning functioning right now first of all and secondly one death and everything changes and Nobody lives forever and these bills

59:45

Would give to the state the right to remove your children from your home

59:54

If it was found that you are not providing to them the appropriate gender care so if your 13 year old daughter behind your back gets access to tick -tock and YouTube and The groomers and they're everywhere

01:00:27

And Take advantage of teen angst and Imbalanced hormones

01:00:34

To convince her that she's actually a boy and you don't go along and You don't take her in to have her breasts cut off and Have her body mutilated and to make her a life long

01:00:55

Unhealthy Dying patient because that's what this stuff is It doesn't matter if you're doing it to the boy if you're doing it to the girl you inject

01:01:04

Lupron into somebody you are Fundamentally Damaging for the rest of their life, which will be a much shorter life

01:01:14

Their health their well -being their future everything. It's gone It's gone

01:01:21

Transitioning is a lie out of hell and Anybody with the slightest knowledge of the medical field knows it and The only people defending are the people who are making millions and millions and billions of dollars

01:01:36

But you know what? It's not the money. That's some of it is it's not so much the money It's the promotion of the culture of death

01:01:44

Just think just think of Of how exciting it is to those who love death to get teenagers to destroy their capacity to procreate

01:02:05

Before they do it. Oh, it's wonderful emasculate that boy

01:02:12

Destroy that that girl Make sure she can never have children make sure he can never

01:02:19

Father children culture of death and the leftists

01:02:27

Who worship in the altar of the culture of death in California? Well, we know that that's

01:02:33

Sacramento. I mean Can you imagine a greater coven of?

01:02:44

of Death What what was what was it in Riddick Death eaters, is that what it's called?

01:02:53

Forget what it was. Anyway, you expect this coming out of California, Washington State Minnesota man was born in Minnesota But it's trying to compete with the others

01:03:07

Can we become? absolutely you know Can we just move our our allegiance to China because that's where all these people are going anyway anyway

01:03:20

These three states have bills being proposed right now It would grant to the state the right to come in and take your children and Mutilate their bodies.

01:03:39

Um, I know what

01:03:44

I'm gonna do as a grandfather if the state comes after my grandkids You see what's going on in in France We are

01:03:58

The the difference between here and France is that we're still armed and the

01:04:07

French aren't so they're throwing rocks and making up Molotov cocktails and using

01:04:18

Umbrellas If you've seen the the jack -booted thugs running into the crowds, you know beating people and they're hiding behind umbrellas umbrellas

01:04:27

Don't really work real well Really don't But when and people say but but but judges would never allow that where the judge is coming from Have you looked at our

01:04:45

Ivy League schools? Have you looked at our law schools today? What are they being taught the culture of death

01:04:54

The culture of death Will these be passed right now,

01:05:04

I don't know Anything's possible these days. I don't trust. I don't trust elections.

01:05:11

I don't trust any of that stuff anymore Are they unconstitutional, of course?

01:05:18

Does it matter? No They don't care Does the the state?

01:05:26

If there's anything that the state detests its restraint upon its own power Which is what the

01:05:32

Constitution was designed to do initially but as Long as you have a large enough minority

01:05:40

Within a nation that wants to subvert the laws that nation those laws will be subverted and they are look at our southern border

01:05:49

That's against the law what's happening? But it's happening because the people in charge are traitors

01:05:58

So can this type of stuff be passed soon? Certainly would seem to be a tremendous possibility.

01:06:13

I There's only one answer because I mean this this Once the state can do this

01:06:20

We are we are making the Soviets look like amateurs.

01:06:29

So what happens then? Well the United States is a little bit of a different context a

01:06:38

Lot more complicated a lot more complicated, you know,

01:06:43

I was thinking as well today in light of the school shooting First of all, we haven't we learned yet to wait till the facts come out

01:06:55

There's obviously all sorts of I mean a 28 year old woman. Maybe she identified as a guy

01:07:04

Well, they then count it as a male If they go on this this woman's social media and find out that she identified as a man

01:07:11

Well, they'd actually change that. Oh, this wasn't an exception, but all sorts of details that clearly, you know

01:07:23

But why is it always schools because it's the culture of death. It's a it's it's it's a demonic

01:07:34

Satanic love of death Abortion transgenderism all of it.

01:07:40

It's a love of death. We see it all around us, but the secular mind

01:07:49

Cannot make the cannot make connections and I don't see a lot of Christians making the connections either

01:07:57

We may read it, but if we don't allow it

01:08:04

To form our worldview We won't get it. We won't get it.

01:08:10

That's what it is All right. I had a bunch of other stuff queued up here. I was gonna get to Corey Allen Byram.

01:08:17

I'll get to him eventually But I've gone over enough.

01:08:25

So please pray for the debate this weekend and The presentations we're doing

01:08:33

I'll actually be addressing stuff relevant to Bart Ehrman and the reliability of scripture and stuff in Southern Utah very heavily conservative

01:08:42

Mormon area and then The Easter pageant the

01:08:50

Mormon Church starts next week here in Mesa, I'm Really sad. I'm gonna miss almost all of it.

01:08:56

I Hopefully get an opportunity to be out there. I'm not gonna say which night Because then the

01:09:01

King James only People show up But pray for Apologia, especially as we will have all sorts of people we've spent the past two

01:09:14

Sunday sermons on the subject There's been two training seminars, there's been a lot of Preparation and so we get a lot of folks out there.

01:09:24

So just pray for the opportunity for Conversations, I just I just remember I think it was last year might have been the year before but I think it was last year

01:09:35

Yeah, it was last year I was in Cedar City again same weekend and I have a picture of my one of my granddaughters

01:09:44

Clementine talking to a LDS cop at the at the pageant and I just it just freaked me out

01:09:55

Because I have a picture of me talking to an LDS cop in Mesa on the same corner and I was

01:10:05

What was it 12 years? I Was like 12 or 13 years older than she is now

01:10:12

And I'm just like Wow Circle of life it continues on it really really does and I so clearly remember somewhere out there and The conversation she had and a special conversation we had with a guy named steel

01:10:31

I think was his steel wasn't iron It was still some reason iron segment But, you know those those trips out to Mesa they meant a lot to my kids that was that was a real

01:10:44

And now they're you know Summer's kids are out there doing the same thing and it's

01:10:50

It's pretty fantastic. It really is. So that'll be the week after Easter which is

01:10:56

No week after general conference. Sorry week before going up to Easter which is late this year into April That always messed us up when we were going up to Salt Lake and stuff like that as to how we were gonna cover everything but But that's that's coming up next week.

01:11:14

So pray for that And we appreciate all the support that you all give us.