Calling Down Holy Fire, Judging Teachers, and Open Q&A

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport.

No, it is not Andrew Rappaport. It is Drew from Matter of Theology, from the

Dead Guy Reader Society, which Chris and I have not done an episode of Matter of Theology or Dead Guy Reader Society in quite a long time.

We should probably at some point get back on there. Either way,

Andrew is off tonight. He's out preaching and doing a whole bunch of stuff, you know, striving for eternity stuff.

So you're here with me, and it's been quite a while since I've actually been here. I think it's been maybe a month since I've hosted, since I've joined

Andrew on the podcast. But right now

I'm here, and you get to enjoy tonight's show. Apologetics Live is a podcast ministry of Striving for Eternity.

So if you want to check out past shows, of course, you can go catch them on any podcast catcher.

You can catch them on YouTube. But you can also go to strivingforeternity .com, the

Christian podcast community. You can check out previous shows. You can also check out all the other podcasts that are hosted on the

Christian podcast community. Lots of good shows, Christian shows on there that will challenge you, that will edify you, but also that will present

Christ to you. And ultimately, that is what we want to do. And I see

Jesse coming in here saying, my post mill brother, what's going on?

That's right. I am the only post mill on the show, but it's fun.

I get ragged for it, but it comes with the territory when you surround yourself with a bunch of dispy premills.

So when you make friends with them, I think they kind of want you around just so that they can poke fun at you.

But feel free to send in some questions if you want. We're going to talk about some things tonight, calling down holy fire, especially in worship, kind of the songs that are sung where you're calling down fire from heaven.

We're going to be talking about judging teachers. Are you allowed to judge your pastor, to judge what he says?

Are you allowed to critique him, his teaching? We're going to jump into that tonight, but some things before we get started, and I may be joined by a guest.

Chris may join me. Wish Aaron Brewster could be here, but of course he can't. He messaged and said that he wasn't going to be able to be on, which is a shame because I always think he's the best part of the show.

But I may be joined by Chris a little later. Not planning for tonight to be a very long night.

I am super tired, so we're going to try to put on a good show for you, talk about some of these things, and of course bring

Scripture in to see what Scripture has to say about these. But before we get into that, let's just talk about some things that are going on.

It's an election year. Things are getting kind of crazy in the political sphere.

We see Kamala Harris. We see her new running mate,

Tim Walz. Those two together are by far the most radical, leftist, and progressive candidates that I think we have ever seen.

I think it was January of 2023, Tim Walz signed a bill in Minnesota where he's governor so that you can kill babies up until the point of birth.

And I think it even goes farther than that, that you can kill a born baby if it was a failed abortion.

This is evil on another level. These are people that glory in their desire to kill babies.

They shout it. They celebrate it. The most evil of things that we see, they celebrate.

And then of course you've got Tim Walz who has touted himself as a commander, master sergeant in the

National Guard, where he actually abandoned his unit, retired before he ever went to combat, before he was ever deployed.

And now that's coming to light in light of Trump's running mate, J .D.

Vance, who actually served in the Marine Corps and served overseas, served in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

We're seeing some of the craziest things, and people on the left don't care.

They don't care. They don't care that this person's a liar. They don't care that this person wants to kill babies.

They just don't care. They want to turn America into a communist country.

And I see Humble Clay here says, pray for America. Absolutely. We should pray for our country.

We should also be praying for our leaders. We should be praying for Joe Biden.

I mean, the guy has had dementia for a while.

We've known it. The left has covered it up. Kamala Harris was involved in covering it up.

And so Joe Biden with his dementia, we should still pray for him. We should pray for his salvation.

We should pray for Kamala Harris and her wickedness. We should pray for Tim Walz. We should also pray for Trump.

If you've watched this show where we've been on and talked about Trump, you know that we don't believe

Trump is a Christian, even though he touts himself as one. So we would say pray for Trump.

Pray for J .D. Vance. Pray for those in Congress, in your local Congress. We need to pray for our leaders because prayer is powerful.

Maybe we should do a show on prayer. We've done ones in the past, but prayer is powerful. Bring your pleas for our country before the

Lord. So pray for America. You're right on,

Humble Clay. Let's see. Jesse says, stolen valor. Absolutely. Absolutely.

That's what it is, stolen valor. He's claiming to be something that he's not and claiming to do something that he never did.

And if you're on Twitter, people on Twitter, servicemen, veterans are calling him out.

They're saying he has stolen valor. So just absolute wickedness going on on the left.

Crazy things. They just say things and they don't think they can be fact checked. They don't think we're going to find these things out.

I mean, come on. Google magic, right? We can look up all of their – we can look up the service record.

We can look up Kamala Harris' record. We know these things, what she did as a district attorney, as an attorney general.

We know what she did as a senator. These things are not hidden, and yet they want to act as though they never happened.

Rob says, tampon Tim. Yeah, this is another form of evil that Walls engaged in where in Minnesota he put tampons in boys' bathrooms.

Boys' bathrooms. I mean, he turned

Minnesota into a sanctuary state for children who wanted to castrate themselves and have gender -changing operations, just mutilate their bodies.

And if you don't agree with it, the state can come in and take your child from you. Absolute, absolute wickedness.

So we will see, and one of the things that's interesting is if you look at the 2020 election,

Biden versus Trump, you saw that Biden really didn't campaign. He campaigned as a guy who either didn't want to win or that knew he was going to win.

What do we see with Kamala? We don't really see her campaigning. We see her traveling around doing some speeches, but she won't talk to the media.

She won't answer any questions unless she has pre -made statements ready from a teleprompter.

She's not really campaigning. So she's either campaigning like someone who doesn't want to win or someone who knows she's going to win, which

I think this election, we knew it last time that there was voter fraud.

And I think this election, if Kamala gets elected, I mean, it's undeniable voter fraud, voter fraud.

Let's see what Raf says. That's why the so -called debate is a joke.

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to see Trump debate Kamala Harris.

Now, I hate political debates. I just don't like them.

They usually get out of control, but a lot was revealed in the debate with Trump and Biden.

And I think that having the mute buttons was very good, but a debate with Kamala and Trump, I think would be golden.

Let's see what Bill says. Bill says Rappaport in slick 2024. I'm for it.

I'm all for it. I'm all for it. I'm here for it. But in other news, some things that we also want to be in prayer for is we do want to be in prayer for Brother David Miller's family and friends.

David Miller passed away yesterday,

I believe it was. If you have not heard of David Miller, I would say go

Google his sermons. They are remarkable. I mean, the man has

Scripture memorized, and when he speaks, you can just feel the

Holy Spirit present and edifying you to turn to Christ and lift Christ and magnify

Christ. We are sad that we won't get to hear him speak at any more conferences like G3, anything like that, but we also rejoice in the fact that we know he is now in the arms of Christ.

That we can say with confidence he heard those words, well done, good and faithful servant, and now he is no longer bound to his wheelchair.

He is now in glory, and that is one of the things that we can rejoice in.

And moving on, in other news, I have started a business.

Now that's part of some of the reason why I haven't been here. I started a business, but I've also had some family stuff going on.

It's like, let's do things on Thursdays. And so I go, okay, we'll do that.

I can't do the podcast. All right. But I've started a business as well. It's a fragrance business called

Timeless Fragrances where I'm making men's fragrances. Women's line is coming next year.

But I work for a fragrance manufacturer and getting into that, it really made me go,

I think I can do this. Because I learned how to, in that I've been learning how to make the fragrances, make colognes and things like that, air fresheners, room sprays.

And so I decided, I think I can do this.

I've created fragrances for other people. Some of my customers, my clients, I've created things for them.

And so why not create it for myself? And the great thing is the owner is really on board with that.

You coming in, also starting your own business because in going through the process of starting your business, you actually get to help some of those customers that you get who are new business owners.

And you can help them walk through the process of starting their own business. So that's one of the things that I've done.

Rob says, diesel smelling cologne. That's a good one.

We do actually have gasoline fragrances and diesel fragrances in our library, but they're more, the idea is more high end, a little more class, fine gentlemen, fine fragrances.

The tagline of the company is reclaiming gentlemen status. They're a little more high end and I've sent samples out to people already.

Jason Cave says it smells good too. It really does. The first fragrance that I've put together and we will be launching hopefully in about a month or so, working on a website right now.

But I'm doing it all myself. So that's part of the learning curve and learning the process and especially being able to help my customers down the line.

Some people have gotten the fragrance already in terms of a sample.

So if you want a sample, guys, if you want a sample, hit me up. Domestic only. We don't ship overseas.

We don't do Canada and Mexico. So only in the US. If you want a sample, hit me up.

Give me your address. I'll send you one. I think you'll enjoy it. Got a lot more fragrances that are going to be coming out.

Two more before the end of the year. And then next year, dropping several others.

Burning bush smell. That's it. Burning bush smell. We're going to call that one holy ground. That's right.

Burning bush smell. Holy ground. I love it. But let's start moving into.

Oh wait, hold on. Melissa sent a comment here. She said to the chat who died. I pulled your comment out of the chat so I could mention it again.

David Miller. David Miller was a preacher and you've probably seen him speaking for G3 conferences and the like.

He passed away yesterday. And so we just want to be in prayer for his family and for his friends that are going through that.

They're mourning, but at the same time they are rejoicing because what a life to be celebrated.

Someone who was disabled but found his joy in the Lord and then teaching about the

Lord and preaching about the Lord. So now moving on.

Let's get into some of the discussion tonight. If you have any questions, please send them in the chat.

Facebook and of course YouTube. The idea of calling down fire from heaven.

Now, I was in the charismatic movement for a little while. I was in the vineyard movement and you see a lot of these prayers.

You see a lot of these songs that are written, right? Bethel has them. Jesus culture, which is connected to Bethel Hill song.

This idea of calling fire from heaven. Oh, hold on.

Whoa. He came in at the perfect time. My boy.

I haven't spoken to him in a while. So I don't know if you caught the beginning, but talked a little bit about some of the evils with Kamala and Tim Waltz and how we need to pray for our country, but also mentioned the passing of David Miller.

So if you want to speak anything into that. Yeah, man. So the only thing I'll say to that is, and you echoed it,

I was listening for a few minutes and we would just be praying for his family.

Pray for G3, for Josh and Carrie Bice. They were very close with David. And if you've never heard

David preach, make it a point to go listen to any of his sermons you can find.

All of them, if you can. Incredible preacher, incredible example of someone who lived out

Ecclesiastes 7 .14, look up the verse, who took what the hand that the

Lord had chosen sovereignly, providentially get to give him and redeemed that for the glory of God, for the good of the gospel of God and of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And it was incredible, not only to hear him preach, like if you heard him preach, you would swear he has a

Bible open. He has a manuscript and all the things that you and I have talked about and do when we have the opportunity.

Everything we teach everyone else to have. You would swear that that's what he does, but when you see him preach, it's quite a different,

I shudder to use the word experience because what you're talking about tonight, there are a lot of churches who engage in that, who call it a worship experience.

And I'm like, stop, but it is quite the experience. And it was always whenever I was at G3 and that's how

I got introduced to him. Whenever I heard him preach and then saw him preach, it was always an admonishment to me and always convicting because it's like, okay, if this man can get up there and preach like that and quote scripture verbatim from memory.

Not just one passage, not just five passages, but like sections of scripture and do so faithfully.

So just an incredible homecoming for him. And I'm sure that will be celebrated at his celebration of life or memorial service, however they do that.

But he is an incredible man. So be praying for them, praying for G3, praying for, you know,

I'm praying for you if you benefited from him and that news hits you hard. And then

I'll start with that. And then very, very quickly, maybe, you know, so this week for at the recording, at the time of the recording of this episode,

I had two days where I had to drive into Atlanta and both Drew and I live outside of Atlanta a good bit.

So I'm roughly on a good day, 45 minutes to an hour from downtown.

And on a bad day, it's two hours, which Tuesday was a bad day. So it was two hours. So I didn't,

I kind of have also been stepping back from social media and just focusing on family, focusing on work.

And I had no idea that the Borders are there, picked

Mr. Waltz as a running mate until late last night.

And then I was familiar with him.

And the reason that I was familiar with him, not because he's a socialist, but he is, not because he signed into law a bill in Minnesota that allows for abortion to take place right up until the moment of birth.

And that if a child survives an abortion attempt to allow that child to die and then sell off the child's organs and body for research, despicable man, let's just an evil man.

All of those things aside, I think what got me and if anybody on here has been following me lately, like you see,

I've really, the patriot in me has really gotten dialed up. And it's only because I just got finished with work that I'm not wearing my

American flag hat, which I can always put it on. But the concept and the thought of being an everyday patriot and what that means, and we can talk more about that if you want to anytime.

But this man was in the National Guard and to further his political career and to further his popularity, he has committed what's called stolen ballot.

He's a quitter. He bailed before he was deployed because he didn't want to be deployed because he's a coward.

Anyone, man or woman, who steals valor away from the men and women who have served our country with honor, integrity, especially to those who were wounded and especially to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to protect the freedoms that we so richly enjoy, is one of the lowest human beings and one of the lowest things that anyone can do.

He's not a patriot, ladies and gentlemen. He's a coward and he's a despicable and evil man.

And it's not surprising that Kamala Harris would pick him because it just furthers the agenda. So I'll say this and then we can hop off of that or we can we can keep talking about it.

Typically, I'm a little quieter with who I'm voting for. Typically, I'm a little quieter with as far as some of the political stuff.

But after what happened 25, 26 days ago when the assassination attempts on former

President Trump happened, when Corey Comfortory, who was a retired fire chief believer in the

Lord Jesus Christ, sheltered his wife and daughter and lost his life. I am unapologetically and unashamedly voting for Donald Trump.

And I'm not one of those people where I'm like, I'm not going to bind your conscience and I don't I'm not going to tell you what to do.

No, I'm going to tell you, like. Based upon who and what is at stake in this election, there is only one choice.

Now, that's not true. You can write in someone. You can vote for someone else. But we are living in a time where a vote for anyone else other than Donald Trump and which, by the way,

I'm not a Trump fanboy. OK, I disagree with him on a lot. But anything other than a vote for Trump is a vote for Waltz, Harris abortion up until the day of birth and beyond.

How do you like paying for groceries right now? How do you like paying for gas right now? So. Tim Waltz, I mean, it just it doesn't surprise me, but this is this this election is

I know I'm just kind of sent it this this election. There's never been more at stake. And this is one of the most important.

This is the most important election that I can remember in my lifetime. And I'm 42 years old. Right. You know, people said that about 2016.

I didn't really think that in 2016. People said that about 2020. I kind of saw the writing on the wall. But this one, bro.

Yeah. So, yeah, we kind of we kind of I kind of mentioned that I kind of mentioned that earlier before you came on that.

You know, when when you looked at the election of 2020, we know that the election was stolen.

Right. We know that voter fraud took place. Like, yes, we know the evidence is there.

But. If the same thing happens this election.

Like if Kamala gets elected, it's like it's it's undeniable that voter fraud has taken place.

Yeah. I mean, it's because and I and here's my thing.

Right. I'm not a Trump fan, never been a Trump fan. I didn't trust him in 2016.

But when I saw a lot of the things that he did once he got elected president. Yes. There were things that benefited the country, the economy.

Right. And so I'm one of those guys that's like, I'm not going to bind your conscience because I don't want my conscience to be bound.

And so before before the assassination attempt, before everything that we've seen just in the last month, maybe two months,

I would I would have been a little more border on the line. OK, I probably write someone in.

The problem is, right. You don't have a lot of good candidates to even write in from a

Christian perspective. Well, that's the thing. The two party system is broken. Like it's it's it is.

And I mean, like I said, I disagree with Trump and Vance that, you know, this on their stance as far as abortion goes.

100 percent. I 100 percent disagree. I am I am an abolitionist.

However, I'm not going to vilify. I'm not going to. I'm not going to vilify other believers because I believe that's against what we see in scripture for for for being pro life.

Now, obviously, it depends on how you define that. That that that needs a deeper conversation. But there's so much there's so much more at stake.

I recently listened to the Sean Ryan show. I listened to listen to him. He's a former

Navy SEAL and has an incredible podcast and interviews and incredible guests. And he recently interviewed

Captain Brad Geary, who was the commanding officer for Bud's for the longest time.

Well, he he he's he's right now the scapegoat because there was a candidate who was going through Bud's, who ended up using steroids and testosterone from Pakistan and some stuff like that.

And who died shortly after hell week because his heart was 63 percent larger than it should have been.

And the reason for that, the reason for that was one, the covid vaccine and two, the illegal drugs he was taking.

But but one of the things that one of the reasons that he decided to go on the Sean Ryan show and talk about that is because he's concerned about these woke ideologies that have bled over into special operations, not just the military.

Yeah, OK. Yeah, we know the military, but but naval special operations. I mean, these are the folks that right now when when our country is not necessarily at war, these are the folks that are executing the operations overseas that keep us from that.

And it's the woke ideology and everything else that came in there, the covid, all the covid stuff, the covid restrictions, the vaccine, et cetera, so on and so forth.

Like he's like, I'm just one of the things he says in there is I'm just I'm concerned with where things are headed.

And that's that's what we don't understand is we can't just and I've seen some other believers, men

I love, and I'm saying that there are some people I'm thinking of right now who are have recently within the last month said,

I'm not voting for Donald Trump and you shouldn't either. Why? Because of his stance on abortion. I disagree.

I disagree. There is so that is that is a huge issue. And I align with all of my abolitionist brothers and sisters out there in so many ways.

But goodness gracious. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, this because this election is important because,

I mean, if it goes the wrong way, it could be the last election.

Right. I mean, James White talked about that in 2020 because I don't think he voted for Trump in 2016.

He said he was voting for Trump in 2020 because it could be the last one.

And we see that, especially with these socialists and putting up the socialist platform and even the communist platform.

Right. Darryl is all over that on Twitter. Yeah, if y 'all aren't following Darryl right now, seriously, whoa, that dude is coming with some truth bombs that we all need.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I got to put this comment up from Sean. He says, wow. So me and Sean actually go way back, way, way back, way, way, way back.

But I also got to put this up from Brad. He says, missing the Matter of Theology podcast, bro.

I mentioned that at the beginning of the show that we haven't done one in a while. You know, it's getting close to almost a year, dude.

Yeah, I know. And you know what's funny about that, man, is I don't know about you.

And this is kind of cool. People get to people get to experience this right now because Drew and I've been running hard just personally, like in our own with wrestling with stuff and things, life events and surgery for me.

And then you guys having another baby and like, there's just so much going on.

But I finally, I was telling Alex, man, Alex Rodriguez, my boy, I was like,

I think I'm getting to the point to where I'm like, yeah, I miss doing that.

We might need to dial that one back up.

I mean, and even now, right. So right now my office is basically under construction.

Okay. So while we had family living here till they got a place, they just moved out.

So now my mom bought my desk. She bought the hutch that kind of that you would see behind me when

I was in my office. And so now my whole thing is under construction. So I need a new desk. I need a place to put all the books that are on the floor now.

So it's under construction. But and then once that happens, right, I'll have an office again and then

I'll have a place to be able to put all my new business stuff, which is what

I was mentioning before you came in the new business. And so the crazy thing is for people who are listening,

Chris was one of the people I would have loved to send my fragrance to, but I can't.

He can't have any fragrances. Everything in their house and stuff has to be unscented. So it's like,

I would love your feedback on it. And when I saw the post, I was like,

I used to love me some smell good. But no, man, there's no way.

Yeah, I was. And it's strong, too. That's the thing. It's strong. So it, dude, wouldn't work.

Just wouldn't work. Well, see, and, you know, our brother, Virgil Walker, let me just tell for all the all the boys out there.

And for you, man, it's like Virgil, you need to reach out to him. If you haven't reached out to Virgil because he is a fragrance connoisseur of sorts.

And so he's the one, he's the one that taught me, like, see, you don't just wear one.

You, you layer, you layer the fragrances. And so that's what he'll do depending on the season, depending on the weather, depending on what he's wearing.

Like he'll, he'll, I was like, dude, I had no idea it was that detailed. That's the thing

I'm starting to come out with. So some of my fragrances I'm making are already layered.

So you get a lot of different notes in a fragrance. But to what

Virgil does, I'm seeing more and more is that people, men and women who are into fragrance, they will have different layers that they add to them.

Because sometimes it's just, you have one dominant note and you don't get the others. And so you kind of add to those, add those notes in there.

Oh, I sent one to, I sent one to Melissa Owens. She says, my hubby is looking forward to his sample,

Drew. I think we are supposed to get it this weekend. Awesome. Cool. Awesome.

Can't wait. So, yeah, let's, let's move on to the topic tonight.

Calling down fire from heaven. That's okay. You needed to come in. You need to have your own opening.

Right. Kind of catch up. Yeah. But the idea of calling fire down from heaven.

And so I mentioned this right before you came on. It's, it's, we see this in charismatic

Pentecostal churches, this idea of singing, calling down fire from heaven, praying, praying fire from heaven.

And I, what really shows is the ignorance that people have in the scriptures because they don't understand fire from heaven.

And I mean, humble clay made a post earlier that I grabbed. He said, call down fire.

You're going to get burned. Absolutely. And that's one of the things that they don't understand. So Chris, let me just ask you, let me ask between you and me, right?

Just you and me. Okay. Just us. Just us. No one else. Okay. Is, is it smart to be calling down fire from heaven?

Now I've got some song lyrics we can go through, but is it smart to be calling down fire from heaven?

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But why? But why?

Isn't God an all consuming fire? Fire is a good thing, right? Hebrews 12, 29, where our

God is a consuming, a consuming fire. So calling down fire from heaven, a number one at best shows an immature, not understood concept of the character and the nature of our

God. If, if, if, you know, and people will throw out those verses for our

God is a consuming fire and then to turn right around and to call fire down from heaven. It's, it's, it's like,

I just want to look at them and go, Hey, Hey, come here. Do you understand what you're asking?

Do you understand what, what you're asking? Everywhere in scripture, with the exception of acts, but we're probably going to get into that.

Fire, fire is used as a judgment. And so, and I say that,

I say that knowing that I used to lead worship and I used to lead the song fire fall down by Hillsong United.

Yeah. Yeah. I've played that song quite a few times. So, so I, I don't say that from an arrogant or looking down my nose at people kind of place.

I say that from a place of going. Nope. I used to, I used to be one of those people who would hear this song and because it, it,

I love them, the melodic roles of the song and, and, and even like some of the, some of the lyrics.

And, and so I'm going to, I'm going to sing it. I'm going to sing it. So, but, but yeah, no, it's, it's definitely not.

So my wife needs my help with something. So I'll be right back. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. I'm just getting into some scripture real quick, but let me put

Chris in the backstage here so that I can bring scripture out.

Melissa makes a good point here with this comment. She says, wouldn't calling down fire from heaven is like asking

God for his wrath? Exactly. That's exactly what we're, what we're going to be discussing.

The idea of calling down fire, God uses fire to display his judgment.

So when you call down fire, you're actually calling for his judgment.

So let me just bring up some verses real quick. Let me, let me go start in maybe

Isaiah. Let's look at Isaiah 26, verse 11, where the prophet

Isaiah says, let me take that off. There we go. Oh Lord, your hand is lifted up yet.

They do not see it. They see your zeal for the people and are put to shame.

Indeed, your fire will devour your enemies. So there we see fire used as judgment.

I think Chris is back. I'm back. There we go. Welcome back. Thank you, buddy.

Just, I don't know if you heard, just went to Isaiah 26. Cool.

Read Isaiah 26, 11. Right now, moving into Isaiah 66, looking at verse 15 and 16.

For behold, the Lord will come in fire and his chariots, like the whirlwind, to render his anger with fury and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For the Lord will execute judgment by fire and by his sword on all flesh.

And those slain by the Lord will be many. So we see

God using fire as judgment. So is that something that we want to call down?

No. I don't quite think it is. So let's look, I mean, look at some of these lyrics,

Chris. Well, let me, let me, I mean, there are some out there who would say, there were some out there who would say, well, well,

Drew, that's Old Testament. Okay. That's not New Testament.

So I would gladly appoint us to the book of Hebrews. Yes, yes.

Hebrews 10, 27, which I believe Hebrews 10, 27 references Isaiah 26, 11. But in this section, in this section, we see

God's word say this. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

Now what this section is talking about is the willful practice and commission of sin in one's life.

After repentance, initial repentance and faith has taken place as far as it being confessed.

This is one of the evidences that the book of John or first John tells us to, to examine ourselves, right?

To, to say that, and first John also echoes this, that no one who sins, no one who willfully practices sin seeks it out without any sort of biblical repentance whatsoever.

This, this is what this is talking about. So verse 27, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire, which will consume the adversaries.

So here we see another example and I can keep going all throughout Hebrews 11, Hebrews 12. Yep. Yep.

So it's going to save it. Yes, sir. Yeah, man. So it's, um, it's, you see a clear examples throughout scripture that, that fire, um, specifically the fire that comes from heaven is one that is reserved for, for, for judgment.

It's also reserved for testing, you know, so which testing is a form of judgment.

And we see that all throughout the scriptures as far as, uh, I believe it's second Corinthians. Um, when it talks about the works that we do perform, um, that, that when they are tested by fire, those that will, yep, yep.

Specifically by fire. Those that will stand the test of time are, are those who, uh, whose works are done according to the scriptures that overflow from a place of repentance and faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ. That's right. That's right. Now look at, because there's, there's a verse that people run to in order to justify fire.

It's not Acts. I know you're thinking Acts, but it's not Acts, but listen, and I'm, but I'm going to go here after I read these lyrics.

Okay. This song. Okay. It says, uh, it's called send the rain and it's by the

Rochester's send the rain, send the rain.

Okay. Here's how it opens right now. First we got, we've got problems with just this first opening verse.

Okay. I'm tired of just the same old thing of tradition wearing out your name problem.

What do you mean tradition wearing out your name? Because one of the, you know what the problem

I see with the Pentecostal and charismatic movements is they're holding on to a tradition that didn't exist before 1900.

You know, but they continue. I'm tired of man -made worship hour.

I'm tired. Hold on. Our worship today in churches is nothing but man made man centered man glorifying worship hour.

Keep going. Uh, I'm tired of a song without any praise.

And yet you sing Hill song, Bethel and elevation where worshiping you is out of place.

I'm tired of religious formality. You know what that says?

That says I I'm tired of the regulative principle. I'm tired of scripture. Well, but here's how many times is it?

I, I, I, I am. I'm tired. It's not about you.

Yeah. Don't worry. We're going to get into the weirs in a minute. Oh, cool. But then here's here's the chorus, right?

Send the rain, send the fire, send the wind, send the

Holy Ghost in power, send the rain. Oh, it's theologically brilliant.

Right. So deep. I need to sit down and contemplate life.

Um, Melissa Owens just said, I'm tired of this song. LOL. Hey, I feel you, sister.

I feel you. But, uh, hold on. Let's get into the weirs. Okay, good.

We're ready for revival, Lord. You're not going to get it singing this song.

Cause who are you worshiping? Ultimately me and what I want yourself. We're ready to walk through that door.

We're ready. Oh Lord. Let it pour. We're ready. Lord. We're ready.

Lord. Enough is enough. We're ready to, we're ready.

Oh, fill us up. We're ready. Oh Lord. That is a. And then of course you go back to send the rain, send the fire, send the wind, send the

Holy Ghost in power, send the rain. Uh, and then it just repeats the, uh, uh, the first verse and then the course is again, but this is right.

This song, when people who are completely ignorant of God's word and of God himself, of who he is, they sing this and they, they fall deep emotionally into it because they're thinking they think they're singing something that is worship and that is praise.

And they don't realize they're calling down judgment upon themselves because not only are they calling down fire, but they're worshiping themselves and what they want rather than what

God wants. Man, you know, Oh goodness gracious alive.

Um, I, I chuckle, but the reason

I chuckle is because it's heartbreaking. It's just how inept and how sad it is.

And we've all been there. We, to those listening to this podcast, you, you and I, at one point we're in the shallow end of the pool, as some people would say, we were at new believers.

We were, um, uh, and, and some of us still are very immature when it comes to, um, our immature, undriven, not unmotivated, undisciplined when it comes to our pursuit of Christ through his word.

Right. Um, so, so let me just give people a little bit of a background on me.

And this is, this is not, I want to be careful here because I don't want it to sound like I'm tooting my own horn because that is not at all what

I, what I want to do. So when the Lord saved me, um, the Lord saved me in 2000.

That was, that was when I remember having my eyes open to my need for Christ, understanding the gospel and, and, and repenting and placing my, my faith and trust and confessing

Christ as Lord for the very first time, October 31st, 2000. I'm one of those people who go, you know, I look back and I see the

Lord drawing me before that. Um, and, and, and, but, but who knows in that time period when actual regeneration took place.

Right. But it was a couple of years later that I was really, I was, I was charismatic.

I was, I was begging the Lord to show me a sign, to speak to me. And I wanted to hear from him audibly, but it wasn't until I dug into his word and, and truly sought after him through his word that I was able to go, okay.

Like, I know what I want to do. I want, I want to learn how to play guitar. I want to learn how to lead music. I don't want to sing. I don't know how to sing.

Like I, I'm not tone deaf. I know that. And I love music. I know that. Like, but I have no idea how to do any of this.

And so by God's grace and through the opening of doors, I was able to do that. And so that, that, that started the journey of doing that for 20 years.

And, um, but one of the things that I would do, and you know, this, because we did it, we did it for the longest time.

We're not really just about a year. So, um, but it felt like longer in a good way. And, um, but man, you know, the process that I would go through with these songs.

Like the first thing I do is I read the lyrics of the song. Like I wouldn't even with these songs right here.

Like I wouldn't even get past the first verse and chorus. And I go, Nope. Right.

Why? Because there's nothing about Christ in there. There's nothing about the gospel in there.

There's nothing about confession of sin. There's nothing about, um, asking and praying that the

Lord would, would make you holy and can conform you more and more into his image. It's very me focused.

It's very emotional. It's very, it's very, I'm tired of this and I'm tired of that. And so this is what

I want. And this is what I'm calling for. Like that is such, um, um, those songs are written by people with absolutely no self or situational awareness whatsoever.

None, because you have no idea the God who you say you're singing to is the

God you're singing to when you're singing songs like that is yourself. And it's a little

G God that will be consumed by fire, that will be consumed and tested in judgment.

Absolutely. And so, so you, you know, brothers and sisters, I say all that.

We say all that to say, like, if your church is singing songs like this at minimum, it,

I would say not a minimum. I would say what this does, what this should do is make you go, okay.

I need to talk to the leaders of this church now, now, because that's a problem.

The God that they are worshiping is not the God of scripture. And so when

I, when I, when I, when I listen to stuff like that, I think of first John four beloved do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

Because many false prophets have gone, not will go, have gone out into the world.

And John keeps going by this, you know, the spirit of God, every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

And every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. The spirit, this is the spirit of the antichrist of which you have heard that it is coming.

And now it is already in the world. So test the spirits, test the spirits with these songs.

And if this is what you're hearing brothers and sisters, then, then, then.

We talk more about these self -centered songs, right? Yeah.

So they're, they're all focused on stuff, but they're also very theologically inaccurate anti -Bible really.

And so listen to this other song. Okay. Because I just pulled this one up because of what you, what you were saying, because this is another song that I've heard sung.

And if you follow me on Facebook, you've probably seen me post about, at least in reference to this without naming it.

It's called adoption song by Brandon Lake. Listen to these lyrics. I renounce the lie that I don't measure up.

That's not a lie. You don't measure up. I'm out.

I don't listen. We got a problem in the first line. I don't listen to Brandon Lake on purpose. And whenever I see any of my friends,

I mean, any of my friends that post something about a Brandon Lake song, I'm like, Sal, just, can you read that again?

I renounce the lie that I don't measure up. You want me to read the next one too?

I guess. I renounce the lie that I'm unworthy of your love.

We haven't even gotten into the, into the chorus yet. I mean, the first two lines are incredibly unbiblical.

So, okay, let me hang on. So my question, there may be people out there listening to this in the chat right now.

I don't know much about Brandon Lake other than who he's associated with and I have heard a few snippets of songs and I'm like, nope, bye.

Right. Is he, is he writing this from a standpoint of you're already a believer?

So, and the reason I'm asking this question is I'm, I'm, I'm attempting. I'm attempting to agree.

I mean, the, sure. The, the, the title of the song is adoption song.

So it's from the standpoint of being adopted. But at the same time, you can't say that it's a lie that I don't measure up because I don't.

But what, you know what they never, what he never gets into? He never gets into why

I do measure up, which is because of Christ, not me, because I'm clothed in Christ. He didn't, he doesn't get to why

I'm now worthy of love. It's because I'm in Christ because God looks at me and he sees

Christ. He doesn't see me. He sees Christ. Right. And so he doesn't mention any of those things, but instead it's all about me.

Right. So listen to these words. I am adopted. I am beloved. It's my inheritance.

I'm a child of God. So when the liar starts mouthing off, I'll sing in confidence, my adoption song.

There's nothing about Christ in there and what he did so that you can be loved, so that you can be adopted.

These first two stanzas make absolutely no sense to an unbeliever, except me.

I see you're still trying to think of a way to be gracious. I am. I'm, you know, something the

Lord has been really working on me and, and you guys can be praying for me. If you ever see me step out, please keep me accountable with it.

Like, you know, Paul says in first Corinthians 13, when it comes to the bond of love and to love hopes in all things.

Right. And, and so I'm, I'm, I'm trying, I'm trying to do that.

And I get, I get what he's trying to do.

But it's so incredibly unbiblical and not loving to write a song with words like this, that when you're talking about adoption, you and I did a whole episode.

Didn't we on adoption? Adoption. The wonderful doctrine of adoption. And in fact, like I recently,

I was in Illinois for, for work and had the chance to talk about Alex earlier, but he asked me to preach on Sunday night.

And I took my notes from that episode and just reworked it a little bit and turn it into a sermon, the wonderful doctrine of adoption.

And so when you take something that large, like when

I say large, I mean, that's the point of the gospel is the glory of God.

And the adoption of those unworthy of those, not enough of those who have, as Romans says, and that's my thing.

I turned to Romans three. I'm like, has he not read Romans? Right. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

I mean, just pick up your Bible and read Romans three through five. Like, I mean, there is none righteous, not even one.

There's none who understands. None who seeks God. I love how, how

Dr. Lawson puts, I love how Dr. Lawson puts those verse, those, those chapters.

He says, that's Paul's, Paul as a lawyer, that's Paul's indictment on the human race.

And he must indict us there because as he continues, he unfolds all the doctrines of Christ.

Exactly. And then you, and then you like Romans five, isn't as beautiful without what

Paul writes in Romans three. Like, listen to these words against the backdrop of what

Paul just laid out in that indictment. And thank you for saying that. Therefore, like after all of this, after he, he, he unloads that indictment.

He talks about the righteousness of God through faith. He talks about Abraham and David's faith counted as righteousness towards them because of their faith.

But then listen to Romans five against that backdrop. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ. Through whom we have also, we also, we have obtained our introduction by faith into the grace in which we stand.

And we boast in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also boast in our afflictions, knowing that affliction brings about perseverance and perseverance, proven character and proven character.

Hope and hope does not put to shame because the love of God has, has, has been given, has been poured out within our hearts through the

Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still weak, not enough.

At the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man, though perhaps for a good man, someone would dare even to die.

But God, there's that phrase, but God demonstrates his own love towards us.

And that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Understanding that you are not enough. Understanding that you don't measure up is one of the things that makes the fact

Christ died for you. So wonderful, so beautiful.

And should, should make your heart start pounding in your chest as you remember those things.

You don't need to be coddled and told you are enough. You are worthy.

No, you're not. That's the beauty of it. You're not worthy. Yet Christ still died for you.

You're not worthy of the inheritance that is Christ. It's not just heaven. It's Christ.

That's who we get. And if you need Brandon Lake or anyone else to write a song for you to stroke your ego and pass you on the back and make you feel better, brethren, sister,

I would implore you to search the scriptures and beg God to assure you that you understand the gospel.

I don't know where Drew went. He said, I'm done. I'm out. Peace. But wow. Listen, a song like that is it's not loving.

It's not loving to tell someone those things. So I don't know where Drew went.

So I'm going to read through some chats and we'll keep going because I know he has some other things. He'll probably hop back in here in a minute unless he won't.

And then you guys are stuck with me and that's not good for you because I don't have control over the chat. So anyway, here we go.

Oh, OK. I'm a bond servant, said one for Jesus.

Alibaba has a shirt that says you are not. Yeah, you are not enough on one side.

On the other part, it says, and that's OK because of Jesus. Yes. Amen.

I like Alibaba. By the way, I really I really appreciate her and her boldness in which she approaches and how she approaches her job.

And then Melissa Owens said the gospel is not a pep talk. Nope. Nope.

If you're given a pep talk or a TED talk, that's not the gospel. That's not.

Not at all. And then bond server for Jesus said me too. And Elisa Childers.

Yeah. Yep. You know, she was in the if you don't know. Mrs. Childers.

She was I can't remember which what group it was in, but she was in the contemporary Christian music world for for a long time.

So. So she came out of that. So, yeah. Zoe girl.

Thank you. OK, yeah, she was she was a part of Zoe girl. Oh, my gosh.

That makes me remember back to those to those years. To those years, those early 2000s, mid 2000s, the contemporary

Christian scene and contemporary Christian music culture. Thank you. And, you know, third day jars of clay.

Speaking of jars of clay, Dan Hassel team, which jars of clay. Hey, welcome back, buddy.

In the live feed. I'm really happy. No, I didn't. It didn't. No, we were talking about. OK, so the plug for the

Internet, which is over there are rather all the way in the other room, got knocked out of the wall.

Oh, nice. So you lost Internet. No, we were just. So I went through that and then I was talking about reading some comments about Ali Bestucky shirt.

You are not enough and that's OK. Right. I was just talking about how much I liked Ali Bestucky and then Elisa Childers, who was a part of Zoe girl.

And I was just talking about the contemporary Christian music scene in the early 2000s, mid 2000s and like 30, a jars of clay.

But then jars of clay, jars of clay is a good example, which, by the way, third day. Let me say that real quick. I've met

Mac Powell a couple of times. He's a good dude. Listen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he lives right where Kennesaw Marietta meet.

Yeah. Right. Right. Before you get to Bear Parkway. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he did a lot of stuff with.

Oh, what's his name? Daniel Basta. Mm hmm. Yeah. You mean why

Basta thinks he's Bob Dylan? Sorry. Anyway. See that. That's me. Not hoping at all. Things like that.

I hear that. That's that's the flesh coming out because I think if you don't know, by the way,

Daniel Basta, who we're talking about, which I've got some more comments here that I want to talk about with music. I haven't talked music in a while.

And Daniel Basta, though, he's the guy who wrote the song like a lion. Never heard like a lion.

It's the our God's not dead. The guy never has to work anymore in his life. No, he doesn't. He's living on the inside, roaring like a lion.

And again, I can play and sing that song without. I mean, it's muscle memory. I've done it so much.

Funny story about that. A good friend of mine who passed away some years back,

John Michael Ritchie. John Michael was my drummer. Love the

Lord, big John Piper fan. And I will never forget. I don't

I'll never forget doing it. I can't remember this exact setting. Either was a Lord's Day morning. It was a

Sunday morning or it was a camp that we were leading music for. And we were laughing backstage because John Michael was a crack up.

That dude was a cut up like to play pranks. But J .M. was a worshiper. He'd be back there playing the drums, eyes closed, singing his heart out and was a pro at those drums.

So love that dude. Miss that dude. But he goes, he goes,

I bet you won't say. Our God's not dead.

Nietzsche was wrong. He's living on the inside, roaring like a lion. And the last chorus of the song,

I did it. And I turned around and looked at him and he goes, oh, I'll never forget that.

And that was that was that was a lot of fun. So, yeah, I remember I didn't really know

John Michael Ritchie because he was in at North at NCC.

When I graduated, he was like in middle school. So I didn't really know him. He was like an eighth grader.

That's when I met him. That's when I met him. And we played drums and he played drums for me a bunch, a bunch.

And then he went ended up going to Liberty University and playing on their their worship team and worship band.

In fact, there were like three or four guys from the church we were part of that went to Liberty and did that. And a few of them are still doing it.

Good friend of mine. The Lord's really got a hold of he and his wife, Brandon and Chelsea Sharp. They live in the greater

Nashville area. And he's a worship pastor to church there and doing amazing stuff. But but, yeah, we played all the songs.

We didn't play a lot of Bethel. We played it was Hillsong, Tomlin and a little bit of Elevation. Well, at that time,

I think because you think what made this Daniel Basha song big was when David Crowder recovered.

And then at that time, the passion was huge. Yeah, yeah. They were really huge because they had just opened 515 in Atlanta.

So what's that? So someone said to let me let me pause here real quick. I'm talking about songs like somebody said, like Bonser Melissa.

I think her name is Melissa Bonser for Jesus. And so she said she said she likes

Mercy. Mercy Me did have some good songs. And I can only imagine got overplayed. But I remember that came out.

That was one of my favorites. So Newsboys, DC Talk.

Yeah. Yeah, we could go there. We could go there. And Tate from DC Talk is yeah, he's he's the lead singer for Newsboys.

Toby Mac still doing his thing kind of his after his son died. He kind of he kind of backed away from stuff.

And Kevin from DC Talk went way left. I mean, took a left turn big time from a progressive standpoint.

But that was what I was getting into is like the reason that we test the spirits is because the lead singer for Jars of Clay, Dan Hasseltine is a gay affirming pastor now.

Right. Right. And so he he apostatized some years back. He was he was one of the ones who walked away for a little while.

And now he's come back and is embracing all of these ideologies that are anti -scripture. And to your point earlier, they're anti -Christ.

They're anti -God. So they are they're not confessing Jesus Christ, as John says in first John four.

And that is the Jesus Christ of scripture, not the Jesus Christ of our imagination, not the Jesus Christ of our emotions, not the

Jesus Christ of our whims and our needs and our wants. It's the Christ of scripture that we test those things against.

That's right. So now we took a detour into worship.

Right. Yeah. And so we kind of and both of us having played together and then, of course, having, you know, played for a long time, we can talk about worship just forever.

We could. But we've talked about it. Yeah. So but kind of bringing it back to kind of this calling down fire.

From heaven. One of the verses, because I mentioned there's a verse people go to where they try to justify this.

Is in Luke. Luke chapter three. Looking at verse 16.

I know where you're going. And it's John the Baptist and he's and John answered and said to them, as for me,

I baptize you with water. But one is coming who is mightier than I.

And I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals. He will baptize you with the

Holy Spirit and fire. And so they stop there. They always stop there.

They need to keep reading. They need to keep reading. They need to keep reading. And so they stop there and they say, see, see. We're going to get baptized by the

Holy Spirit with fire. That's not what he's saying. No, no.

Because if we read the next verse, and I had to explain this to someone. If you read verse 17, his winnowing fork, meaning

Christ, his winnowing fork is in his hand to thoroughly clear the threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn.

But he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. So what do we see when we read these verses and we understand them in context?

It's not that the Holy Spirit's coming to baptize you in fire. It's that the

Holy, when Jesus comes, he will baptize with the Holy Spirit and he will baptize with fire.

They're two separate things. The believers have the

Holy Spirit because he says those who are the wheat in verse 17 are going to be gathered into the barn.

But those who are the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire.

So he's talking about salvation or blessing in one. And then he's talking about judgment with the other.

Yep. Thoughts, Chris? No, it all goes back to the root of this.

It's all the same problem. And that problem is biblical illiteracy. And that problem, the root of that problem is layered.

And the reason I say that is because, number one, it's your personal responsibility as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and to know the

God you profess to love. We've talked about this before. Like if you are married or considering marriage and in a relationship where you're getting to know someone, how can you truly love someone if you don't know them?

So you've got to study the scriptures. You have to be understanding that when you study the scriptures, the scriptures study you.

And we've said this multiple times and so have others. It's been well said that there aren't a lot of original thoughts out there, but scripture is both a mirror and a window.

It's a window first because it gives us a glimpse into who the Lord Jesus Christ is, who God is.

And then it's a mirror because it lets us know who we are in response to who he is. And of course, that is a very high level of way of saying that.

But you have to study the scriptures. And you can't proof text with just one passage.

You can't proof text an idea and a thought with just, oh, you see, Luke 3 .16 says that. Well, just keep reading.

Just read verse 17 and then continue to study the

Bible. Martin Lloyd -Jones would say it like this. I'm paraphrasing. He would say that if there's something that you're trying to prove with scripture and you can only prove it or show it in only one place in scripture, he would always say start over.

It doesn't mean that you're not right. That's not what that means. It just means start over. Thomas Watson has a diamond cuts a diamond.

So the scripture interprets itself. Scripture interprets scripture. So if you think that, oh,

I'm supposed to be baptized with fire. No, you need to start over.

You need to go and study how fire is used in scripture. Where do we see examples of fire and what is the purpose of that?

Not just the New Testament, Andy Stanley. But, but the whole of scripture.

So what you got. That's right. That's it. You want to move on to our next topic?

Send it. All right. So we've covered don't call down fire from heaven.

All you're doing is displaying your ignorance and you know, we don't want you to do that.

Come on. Come on. I truly don't want fire to be called down from heaven and continue.

Don't do it. I mean, look at, look at, look at Sodom and Gomorrah, dude. An entire city was destroyed.

And then. When Lot's wife turned to look back, she turned to look back at the sin she was leaving.

And I forgot who it was. Leonard Ravenhill, maybe he was taught.

He was talking about this. She turned to look back, longing for the former life that she had that was about to be destroyed.

Right. Because why else would you look back at the destruction you're leaving? Right. When God calls you out of something, why look back at, at all the, and long for all the thing, all the, the filthiness you once had.

Right. Right. Right. Well, bro. I mean, think about this too. One more thing on fire. Is. And what made me think about this is

Sodom and Gomorrah. Like, understand that. When the

Lord Jesus Christ is pronouncing woes in the scriptures. I'm thinking of specifically

Matthew 11. And this is right before the, you know, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I'll give you rest.

But specifically in Matthew 11, starting in verse 20, he says, then he began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles were done because they did not repent.

Whoa. To you. Corison. Whoa. To you, Bethsaida. For the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, which occurred in you.

For if the miracle, excuse me, that occurred in Tyre and Sidon, which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Nevertheless, I say to you, it will be more. Tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you and Capernaum.

Will you be exalted to heaven? Will you descend to Hades? For if the miracles had occurred in Sodom, which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.

Nevertheless, I say to you that it will be more tolerable in the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.

And the reason I wanted to bring this up is, is because we live in a country and in a time where the

Lord has shown immense, immeasurable restraining grace.

Now he's removing that as we are seeing, and this is a larger conversation, but I just wanted to point this out because of the whole fire thing.

How is Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed with fire raining down from heaven accurately, biblically, biblically, unlike that song that you read earlier.

But, but understand that, that another reason, another problem as far as biblical illiteracy is what we see coming from the majority, not all, but the majority of pulpits across this country.

And they have not churches, churches, people, the people who profess

Christ have not repented. And they're the ones calling down fire from heaven. So understand that the

Lord's going to answer that prayer. Christ has, has laid that out for us.

So just be aware that if you're in, again, and this kind of moves us, this kind of connects into what we're going to talk about next.

But like, if you're in a church where this is taking place, like understand that the judgment's coming.

Yup. Now I start a question that Melissa asked, but I want to save that kind of to the end.

So Melissa, we're going to get to your question because I think it's a good question. But now let's kind of, let's kind of shift gears a little bit, right?

So we've talked about calling down fire from heaven. Don't do that. And then don't sing stupid songs.

All right. Don't do that either. But here's another thing.

Yeah. Hashtag don't sing stupid songs. So when we point those things out, right?

Because you mentioned earlier when you hear the songs being sung, right?

You should go to your leadership, the leadership of the church, right? Now, some people have done that and then they get, they get talked down to for criticizing.

Criticizing the leaders who pick the songs or you listen to a sermon and you critique the sermon, you judge the sermon.

And so Chris, should we be judging the pastor or the leaders in the church by their preaching, maybe how they live?

Because here's one of the things I heard. I heard, I heard this last week.

No, maybe the week before last, right? On this Wednesday night, that always gives me a headache.

It was said that this person has gotten criticism, but then they related themselves to John and John got criticism.

And so they viewed it as a form of persecution and the enemy attacking them.

Tell me you have a high view of yourself without telling me you have a high view of yourself.

So should we be listening to a sermon and then judging that sermon?

And do we have the right to critique a pastor if he says something false?

Yes. Yes, I agree. We do. But then we do that.

Go ahead. Well, real quick. Then we do that. And then someone always comes back with Matthew seven.

Don't judge. Right. You're not judge so that you will not be judged. Keep reading. What are you talking about?

I don't need to keep reading. It says it right there. Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

I don't need to read anymore. That's the word of God. Do you believe it? Do you believe it? That's what the word of God says. Do you?

I believe what's in this Bible. Do you believe it? That's what it says. It says, do not judge. You're such a

Pharisee. Right. I mean, that's how people handle this. And that's how we do that.

We used to comment about reckless love real quick. So we don't forget to talk about it. Hold on.

Okay. Start. Thank you. Okay. But yeah, let me let me keep reading.

Okay. To your point. Let me keep reading. Okay. Matthew seven. Do not judge so that you will not be judged for in the way you judge, you will be judged.

And by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, let me take the speck out of your eye.

And behold, the log is in your own eye. You hypocrite. First, because hold on, let me get into that.

Let me just say, because some people will hang out there too. They'll ignore the other part, but then they'll hang out in the speck and the log and the eye and they'll go and they'll go.

You're worried about a speck, but you got a log in your own eye. They don't understand.

Jesus is actually giving instruction. Um, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

He's not telling you, don't point out the speck. He's saying first, make sure you're right.

Make sure that you don't have a sin in your, the sin that you're about to talk to, or the error you're about to talk to.

Make sure you're not a hypocrite and committing the same thing. First, make sure your eyes are clear of all logs, because when they're clear, now you can see clearly to help your brother with the speck that's in his.

Correct. Correct. Um, yes, very, very important.

So if you, and so using the example, right, of what we were just talking about, uh, concerning songs or concerning calling fire down or concerning something like that.

Like if, if you, if you are calling someone out for playing those songs or listening to those songs or promoting those songs, yet you have someone maybe that you like to listen to that you're promoting.

Like there's an, there's an example of that. Or if there's some sort of glaring sin in your life, like deal with that before you deal with, with what's going on in your brother's eyes.

Very important. And then you could keep going in Matthew. You go down to verse 15, beware of the false prophets that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

You will know them by their fruits. What does that mean?

It's just like you are examining, you are using John's words from first John four, which is why

I read that earlier. Cause I knew we were going to go here. Test the spirits. Test them against the backdrop of scripture.

Test them against the backdrop of, of, of what you see very clearly black and white in the scriptures.

It doesn't mean that you are condemning someone if they get up there and they teach something that's, that's, that's wrong or, or, or off unless it's just blatant outright heresy.

And then, you know, you don't want to condemn. No, there's a difference between condemnation and, and judgment and examination.

We are absolutely called to judge and examine. We are called to judge and examine our own lives and the fruit that, that, that is coming from our own lives.

But then we are also called, also called to be Bereans. You know, the noble Bereans, they were counted as noble.

Why? Because they tested everything against the backdrop of God's word. And so Paul came in,

Paul came in, he preached, the Bereans took the scriptures and said, let's see if what

Paul is saying matches up with the scriptures. And lo and behold, it did. What'd they do? They judged

Paul's preaching according to the scriptures. And now that is such an evil thing for people to do today.

You just, you know, you can't do that. No, you can't do that. But, but, but, but the reason that we do that and the reason that I, that I've done that, that you've done that in churches that we've been a part of.

And unfortunately, when, when, when I've confronted, I won't speak for you, but I know I could.

Like when I'm, I confronted a pastor that I was on staff at a church years ago.

From, you know, taking Jude out of context or sitting everyone down because there were people, there were people in the church that were doing this and they were testing the spirits and they were seeing things that didn't line up with scripture.

And so they would come with their Bibles and say, Hey pastor, like, Hey elders, like we're seeing this, it doesn't line up with scripture.

And so what this guy did is he had all the men who were leaders in the church come around on a Saturday and have a kumbaya session and wanted everyone to look up and share one, one passage of scripture that dealt with unity.

Unity, because, because all people were doing for the most part, there were some who were trying to create dissension.

They were asking questions. They were doing what they were supposed to be doing. And that threatened the pastor and that threatened the elders because the elders at the time, they were just yes men.

I'm not trying to gossip or talk bad about anyone. I'm just saying they were yes men. And at that meeting, at that very meeting, one of the elders said, well, we just need to do everything that the pastor says.

He's the CEO. No, he's not. He's the lead slave. He's not the

CEO. And so people went around and when it came to me, I said, I said, well, I said, there are multiple passages of scripture that we could go to.

I said, but here's the thing. Here's, here's what I want to leave us with. And, and whether you guys like it or not, I just,

I'm going to, I'm going to speak the truth is we can't just say that we're unified. We have to talk about what we're unified around.

And if we're not unified around the unadulterated word of God, then I don't want to be a part of it.

That was the beginning of the end for me at that church. So, so it seems like we kind of have a habit of doing that and then people get all up in arms.

But you know what though? It's only happened twice. It's happened twice to me. And once was that one and you know about the other one.

And so, so, but it's important. Hey, one time we got a shout out, at least, at least reference, not by name, but on a

Sunday morning. You know? Yes, yes, we have. So, but it's important.

It's important that, that yes, we are called to judge and examine now. And, and we've seen some, some great examples of that in our time.

Right. Of, of if you're going to do it, here's how you do it. Like, and I would venture to say that one of the, one of the people who has done it well throughout his tenure is

John MacArthur. And, and he would hear things or see things that were affecting people at Grace Community Church.

And, and, and, and the church at large, the church universal, and he would address those things. And the, the, the gospel according to Jesus was one of the first, first times he really did that.

When he saw the seeker oriented churches who believe that you could make Christ your savior first and then eventually make him

Lord. And of course that, that got deemed the Lordship controversy. That got, you know, he got, he got labeled as a, as a

Pharisee. He got labeled as one who people would say he believes in works -based salvation.

People still today, that book was written in the seventies, 1970s.

And today in 2024, he still, there are people who still say that he preaches a works -based salvation.

And that is, that could not be further from the truth. Right. But he, he, he saw what people were teaching and he called them out.

They didn't like it. And he said, no, this teaching that this person said publicly, this, this is how it differentiates from what scripture teaches.

And of course he got labeled. So anyway, go ahead. Yeah. Well, you know, there's, there's two places in scripture in particular that give the qualifications for a pastor.

First Timothy three and Titus one. Yes, sir. I have, I'm open to that. I'm open to Timothy.

I was going to go there next. Yeah. And so when we look at these qualifications, what are we supposed to be doing?

We are supposed to be measuring our pastor according to these qualifications.

And if he, but we, it's not just a one -time thing. It's a continual thing because the pastor always needs to be within these guidelines, within these character traits.

He always needs to display these. Why? Because once he quits displaying these character traits, he's no longer qualified to be pastor.

Now he may not be disqualified to where he can't be a pastor anymore, but maybe step down.

Right. Maybe he needs to go under some discipleship. Maybe he needs to step aside, but he could, depending on whatever it is, be restored.

But when we look at, I mean, we see in, in Timothy, right? Preach sound doctrine.

We go over to Titus chapter one, verse nine. One of the calls for an elder is to hold fast to the faithful word, which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able to exhort in sound doctrine, but also refute those who contradict it.

So if I meet these qualifications, one of my jobs is to refute what contradicts sound doctrine.

That's actually a holy thing. So if there's a pastor that's teaching something wrong, it is actually a holy thing for me to go to him with sound doctrine and say, this is what scripture says.

What you said was false. What you said could lead people astray. And he should appreciate that.

And he should appreciate that. And, but here's, you know what, you know what they, what, what they always respond with?

Well, that's your opinion. That's your opinion. That's how you interpret it.

Or, and you and I have heard this, or what have you guys done? You don't know what it takes to go to church.

Yeah. You're not a pastor. I mean, but here's, here's crazy thing.

Let me just, it's crazy thing about these passages, right? Timothy, Titus. Now we call these pastoral epistles, epistles, because they're written to pastors and they're written for pastors.

But they're not just for pastors. No. Because it's not only the pastor that needs to meet these qualifications.

It's everyone. Yeah. Right. So hold on. Let me, let me, let me just go back to, to first Timothy chapter three, right?

Is it just the pastor who should be above reproach or should everyone be above reproach? Every Christian, everyone who names the name of Christ, should they be above reproach?

Yes. They should seek to be above reproach. Should every husband be the husband of one wife?

Yes, because we're not Mormon. Like, absolutely. Like, I mean, should every, everyone who names the name of Christ be temperate, be prudent, be respectful, hospitable.

Now they may not be able to teach. Okay. But should we be addicted to wine?

No, because addicted to wine is a drunkard. Right. You know, my position about drinking, but.

Yes, I do. It's neither here nor there. But should we be gentle? Should we be peaceable, free from the love of money?

Hey, this isn't just the first place this shows up here. Christ even says. Yeah. That the love of money is the.

Root of all evil. Root of all evil. Right. So it's not just the pastor that must meet these qualifications.

Every believer should seek to meet these qualifications. But it's more important that your pastor meet these because he's the man who is called of God to stand before God's people to proclaim

God's word to God's people. He's been charged. He's been charged with that.

So he must be above reproach when we say above reproach. Right. He must teach this as it is laid out, not inserting his own things, not saying, man,

I get my messages from dreams. That's so stupid. Like, don't get your messages from dreams.

How about get it from the word? Like, well, does your dream have something special that this word doesn't have?

No. It's probably something dumb anyway. So just preach this, which isn't. Yeah. Well.

Continue. No, no, no. Don't apologize, man. You're good. Send it. Why? What's why?

Why do we do that? Well, like, you know, Paul continues in second Timothy.

After after the apostle Paul's writing to his young son, the faith talking about the the treasure that's been entrusted, the treasure of the gospel.

And after after exhorting him to remember Christ and all he does. You know, first, our second

Timothy two is a trustworthy saying for if we die to him, we also live with him. If we endure, we will also reign. If we deny him, he will deny us.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful. But he cannot. He cannot deny himself. And so then we get to the section.

Second, Timothy says, remind him of these things, solemnly charging them in the presence of God, not the dispute about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

But verse 15 to be diligent. Diligent, disciplined.

That matters to present yourself approved to who approved to the seeker.

When I say the seeker, I mean the unbeliever approved to society, approved to the political ideologies, no approved to God.

That's what a workman, a craftsman, a pro. Who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And why is this so important? Flip over to second Timothy four. Again, you see that word charge.

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead.

There's more fire again. And by his appearing in his kingdom, preach the word.

Be ready in season and out of season. Reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and teaching. Why is it so important that pastors stick to that?

Why is it so important, Drew, to your point that we as believers stick to that? Again, this is written to elders, to those who would shepherd, but it's very applicable to the rest of us who aren't in those roles.

Are you diligent to present yourself approved to God as a craftsman or craftswoman, if you will?

I'm going to be careful there. You're not called to preach. Don't take it that way. But where you don't need to be ashamed because why?

You're accurately handling. You're rightly dividing the scriptures in your own personal study. You're rightly applying the scriptures in your own personal walk and examining your life against the backdrop of scripture.

Do you understand that this charge, right? This charge to be about the ministry of the word of God in your own life is important.

Understanding that God in Christ Jesus is the one who judges the living and the dead by his appearing in his kingdom.

That you and I and anybody listening to this, we need to be ready in season and out of season to apply the word of God to everything we think, say, do and desire.

Why is that so important? Why is it important that we hold our pastors accountable? Why is it important that we hold ourselves accountable?

Back up one chapter, 2 Timothy 3. But know this, that in the last days, which

I truly believe, I truly believe. We don't know how long the last days will last per se, but I believe we're there.

We're experiencing this stuff now. Difficult times will come. Men and women will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy.

Unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips without self -control, without gentleness, without consideration, without love for good, treacherous, reckless, conceited.

Lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, but having denied its power.

Keep away from such men as these. Why is it important, brothers and sisters, that we expect?

We expect and then we inspect what we expect. We expect our pastors and leaders to adhere to these things.

Because we're to look to them as they, we're to imitate them as they imitate Christ. We have to understand that they've been given the charge and the call of God to shepherd as the under shepherd to the chief shepherd, our souls.

And we'll be held accountable for them. We hold them to this standard.

And if you're listening to this instead of watching it, I'm holding up my Bible to this standard. But we also have to hold ourselves to this standard as well.

And we have to, if we're going to hold someone to that standard, that we do so in accordance with the scripture. We do so in love.

We do so with gentleness and consideration. We do so, as I mentioned it earlier, first Corinthians 13, hoping in all things, not just assuming the worst.

There's a difference between assuming the worst and discerning the worst. We, if we assume the worst, we assume without having all the information.

But if we're discerning the worst, it's because we have our eyes open. We've compared it against the backdrop of scripture. It is very wrong.

It is anti -Christ. It is anti -biblical, is anti -God. And so the worst has happened. There's a difference between the two.

So I got to put this comment up from Jesse. He says, enter post -meal brother. Come on.

I know what he's wanting me to get into. I did too. That's why I was like. It's a different topic for a different day.

Yeah. But I see. I do see what you're saying. And those are the same kind of pastors that will say, well, you shouldn't call anyone out by name.

You shouldn't – you always got to go to them privately. And okay, except let's read – you were in 2

Timothy 2. Let's look at 2 Timothy 2. I think that's exactly where I was going. Verse 16.

But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

Right? So you have people, two men, who are speaking falsely. And guess what?

Paul calls them out publicly. Right. By name. Yeah. John does the same thing.

He sure does. So it's not an unbiblical or an unkind or an ungracious or whatever to call someone who's teaching falsely out by name.

Correct. It's not. It's not.

It can be done. It should be done. It just – it needs to be done in accordance with Scripture.

And, of course, you'll have people all the time saying Matthew 18, Matthew 18, Matthew 18. Right, right.

Yeah, don't be a turd about it. Like, yes, I said turd. You know, do it according to the

Scripture. Again, right, right, above reproach. Do it – it's very clearly laid out how it should be done.

And everybody's like, Matthew 18, you need to follow that. Well, no. No, you don't unless it's something – unless it's a church discipline issue.

Again, this is a biblical literacy versus illiteracy issue. You are not required.

If you are not part of the same church, you are not required to stick to Matthew 18 now unless it's in the church and it deals with a discipline issue now.

That doesn't mean that it's not a good idea to do that. It doesn't mean that it may not be a good idea to approach them privately before doing it publicly.

And, bro, on a matter of theology, every time you and I did that, like, bro, before we called out anything – We didn't name names. I sent them a message.

But even still, when we were talking about other people, like, we didn't name names. You only knew who we were talking about if you were there.

You were there with us. Other than that, you didn't know. You reached out to us privately and said, who are you guys talking about? I'll tell you.

I don't care. But it's a good idea to stick to Matthew 18, but you're not required to, especially if it's something that's public.

And I like what Paul did here, and I think this is important to point out. He said, with Hymenides and Philetus, he said, they've gone astray from the truth.

So there's the accusation. They've gone astray from the truth. Then it gets more granular with it.

Oh, man, there's a cat stuck in my garage. Because they were teaching. Yes. So from the truth, saying that the resurrection had already taken place, and they upset.

Why? Why is this important? Because they upset the faith of some. Yeah. Right? When you have people like Andy Stanley, when you have people like Brandon Lake, when you have people like Corey Asprey, crying out loud, who are putting this content out there, and they're trying to stamp the name of Christ on this when it's completely anti -Christ and completely anti -Scripture.

That upsets the faith of some. That fires me up. That fires me up.

Because it shouldn't be that way. And that goes into a whole other conversation in the fact that there are too many unqualified, unqualified people leading music in churches.

The person leading the music in the church should be a pastor, an elder, and be held to those qualification standards.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I concur. So what have we gotten so far out of tonight's show?

A whole lot. Don't call down fire from heaven. Don't sing stupid songs.

Well, I got to say what Melissa said. Oh, I got to find it. Oh, she said, we're not

Mormon, and we don't sing stupid songs. Amen. We could have just said that.

Okay, good night. Yeah, exactly. And it is okay to critique, to judge your pastor's preaching, or even the songs that you sing in church.

Why? Because we must have a standard that we hold to. And if we're not holding to this standard, then all you're doing is playing church, not being the church.

So we have to have a measuring stick, a measuring rod, that we can take what's said.

A measuring sword. A measuring sword. When the pastor gets up, and he says, thus says the

Lord. We have to be able to go, did the Lord say that? Right?

Thus says the Lord through my dream. Thus says the Lord through indigestion of pizza.

Thus says the Lord in whatever. Okay, did he say that?

And I need that quote from John Owen about private revelation.

If private revelation disagrees with Scripture, then it's false. If it agrees with Scripture, it's unnecessary.

Why? What does he mean? He means, if my private revelation, if I get a private revelation from God, if I say

I hear from God outside of the Word, and it doesn't agree with Scripture, then it wasn't the

Lord who spoke to me. But, if what I heard does agree with Scripture, then that Word was unnecessary because it's taught in Scripture, and I don't need to hear from the

Lord outside of His Word. So to quote our friend, Justin Peters, if you want to hear the

Lord speak, read your Bible. If you want to hear Him speak audibly, read it out loud. That's it.

That's it. All comes back to frameworks, man. What's your framework?

And I'll piggyback on what Melissa just said, and I just responded to her in the chat, but she said the fountain of orthology.

I was going to pull it up, but I'm glad you're bringing it up. Yeah, the fountain of our theology must come from the Scriptures. I had the opportunity back in 2020,

I think it was, to do the G3 Expository Preaching Workshop, and Dr. Tom Buck, I love him.

Oh yeah, wait, hold on. Let me tell a story about this. Let me tell a story about this real quick. Because at that time, my wife and I were in the hospital because our son was being born.

Lawson was being born. Yeah. And so she was still in labor. She hadn't delivered yet. So I'm sitting there and I'm just writing and I'm reading, and I get this text from Chris.

And he says, Hey man, I'm at the expository workshop. I talked to Dr. Buck. He says, if you want to come down, we can get you in and you can do the expository workshop.

And I'm like, bro, we're sitting in the hospital. I'm having a baby.

I can't do it right now. Otherwise I would. But I just thought it was funny.

I was like, bro, I'm having a baby right now. Yeah. So that was, gosh, that was four years ago. That'll be four years.

I think it's coming up. Almost four years ago. No, it'll be five years in January.

In January it'll be five years. You're right. You're right. You're right. So I just remember going, sitting there and Tom dropped.

We started talking about frameworks and the importance of frameworks in the scriptures and how we approach it.

And this changed me and continues to, to this day.

There's not a day that goes by that I don't stop and sit back and go,

OK, let me make sure my framework lens is clear.

And then I'm gathering my framework from what God's word teaches and not trying to read my framework into what

God's word says. And even even those of us in our circle, in our camp, like we have to be very, very careful that we're not allowing.

We're not allowing anything to affect that, that we are truly gleaning our frameworks in the way that we view

God, ourselves in the world. The lens at which we view that has to be through the scriptures.

And I know that may sound simple, but when you really start digging into the things that you believe, the things that you, the theological positions you hold to your life practically, when you really drill down and ask the

Lord to search you, to pray those those those prayers we find in the

Psalms and apply them to you and in making sure that your frameworks and the things that you believe come from and you're not pulling, pulling from or you're not reading into what you're pulling from.

And it's very easy to do, even even in our camps, especially I would even say, especially in our camps.

So we just got to be very, very careful to make sure that what we do flows from and we're not we're not trying to pour in to what the

Bible teaches. Yeah, that's a good word. All right, let's get to some of these comments.

Some of these go back to what we were talking about, about worship, which is a topic that you and I talk a lot about.

A lot of experience in that area between the two of us. First, I want to bring this quote from Ross.

He's quoting Ephesians and Colossians.

He says, no fabric of the church being built in teaching and admonishing one another with all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing with gratefulness in the hearts to God.

Ephesians 2, 11 through 22, Colossians 3, 15, 16.

And then he says he adds this to God. Right.

So we were talking about songs that we were singing that were about us. And this is the thing with worship, because I've said this to these people who sing these songs directly to these people.

I've said it to them. I know exactly what you're going to say. Worship is vertical.

Yes, it is us singing to God. Worship is not horizontal.

It's not us singing to one another about one another. Well, I would offer one.

Sorry, go ahead. Well, I was going to say it's vertical singing about God. But in the horizontal, we bless one another through our singing to God.

So there's a ministry that there's a ministry that takes place between those who are worshiping when we sing vertically to God.

Yes. So a couple of things about that. The only thing I would say is that our worship is vertical to God, not just when we're singing to God.

Worship is vertical to God, and it is everything we think, say, do and desire. Life is worship.

Everything we do is an act of worship. And so it is directed towards him, but it absolutely applies horizontally.

So, yes, I agree. And those verses out of especially the one out of Colossians is one that I've referred back to often.

And I've also referred back to it from a practical standpoint in this. And I've said this multiple times and even done this in churches that I've had the opportunity to be a part of.

And in fact, the last time you and I led music together, I had them turn the lights up. Because how can you teach and admonish one another as you're singing these psalms, hymns and spiritual songs to God if you can't see each other?

Right. We have senses for a reason. We have hearing for a reason.

We have eyesight for a reason. We take in information. You'll hear me say constantly, watch your diet.

And that's not just what you eat, but what you consume, what you listen to, what you put before your eyes. That affects what and how you worship.

So turn the lights up for crying out loud. One of the things that we...

I remember John MacArthur in Strange Fire Conference says, get white light bulbs.

Yeah. Like I remember at a church I was in, one of the things that I wanted to do,

I wanted to do weekly. I didn't want to do any more. I didn't want the stadium seating anymore. I didn't want the rows.

I wanted... Because we were a small enough church and we're in a big enough room to where we could put everybody in a circle or a horseshoe.

And the people playing the instruments are in this side of the horseshoe and everybody else is here.

So you can see each other. And turn the lights up. Turn the lights up. So you can see one another.

Like that's super, super important. Worship. Worship on the

Lord's day, yes, is directed to God. But again, like Paul lays it out, and I'm glad Ross put that in Ephesians and Colossians, that there is something happens, that something happens to us corporately when we're doing that together.

As we're singing God's word together. So, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Let's address this one before we address the reckless love, because I know reckless love gets both of us heated.

So Melissa asks, should we be praying imprecatory Psalms? I thought we were supposed to pray for our enemies.

This is a good question. It's a good question. When we see... Here's a story

I like to bring up when someone mentions imprecatory Psalms. Some of you may know

Rusty Thomas. If you don't, Rusty Thomas was the former president of OSA, Operation Save America.

Now it is Jason Storms, and he leads with Pastor Darren Stid, who has been on this show.

Rusty Thomas is a big, big voice in the abolition movement.

He's been fighting against abortion for many, many years. And he is actually on an

FBI watch list because of his stance on abortion. He was asked several years ago, when

Obama was first elected, to go with a group of pastors to the White House.

And what they did, they went every year whenever there was a new president, and they took him a plaque that just said, hey, we're praying for you to meet with the president and just let him know, hey, we're praying for you.

Well, this particular plaque had something else very interesting on it.

It didn't just say, we're praying for you. It said, you are God's man raised up for this time, and if you lead

God's way, we are praying these types of prayers for you. But if you don't, if you reject

God's call and how he has called you to lead, we're praying imprecatory psalms for you.

So it's this idea of either you follow God in the position that he has put you in, and we are praying prayers of blessing and continuance on you, or you're rejecting, you're coming against God, being an active enemy of God.

In that case, we are praying imprecatory psalms against you. So it's really a determination of, and one of the things we should be praying for, let me say this, we should be praying for with our enemies is their salvation.

But while we're praying for their salvation, we also don't want them to be active enemies of God, deceiving others, coming against the church.

Therefore, we have imprecatory psalms that we can pray against our enemies in order to, the goal is to stifle them.

But also, even in that, what's the goal of putting someone outside of the church in church discipline?

It's turning them over to Satan so that their soul may be saved. Sometimes that's what you have to do.

You have to come against your enemy in a way, and I would say imprecatory psalms is a way of coming against your enemy that can change them and change their heart and bring them into the kingdom.

So it kind of works two ways. It's this one of coming against them because they have come against the

Lord. They have come against His church, but it's also a way of breaking them down so that they may be saved.

It's kind of twofold there. What do you want to add? More often than not, we don't know how to pray for our enemies, and so I think the imprecatory psalms give us a good map to stick to.

The other thing I would add to that is, yeah, when you say, when you have, you know, Scripture tells us to pray for our leaders and pray for them often.

And so, you know, there are times that those prayers will change. And I would say first to echo what you said, first, foremost, and often, we pray for their salvation.

We pray that the Lord would save them, soften their heart, that He would regenerate them, that the bright light of the gospel of God and the

Lord Jesus Christ will be shown into their lives, that He will remove that veil that is covering the eyes of their heart to see, understand, and accept and confess

Christ as Lord. But if not, then absolutely, you pray those imprecatory psalms over them 100%.

Yeah, I agree. Cool. Now let's get to the final comment.

I did that at my old church, and I got called out. This is where we're talking about having conversations with leaders.

Yeah. Yep. And I got called out for it in a sermon the next

Sunday. It was over reckless love. So Melissa, hold on Melissa.

Did they call you out by name? Yeah. Did they call you out by name from the pulpit?

Did they say Melissa Owens did this? I got to see this answer.

She's a sad, unloving, unloving, ununifying, ungrateful.

Right? You don't understand. God's love is reckless, that He just recklessly came after you, not concerned about Himself.

That song is the bane of my existence. And you want to come against that?

Someone had actually beat you and I to it in talking about that song.

You're talking about your brother -in -law? Yes. Yeah, he beat us to it, going to the pastor, saying, we don't need to sing this song.

And they didn't, right? Not only did they not, hold on, she answered, she said, not by name.

They said it was a disgruntled female. That would have been even funnier.

Disgraceful female. How dare you? A disgruntled female that approached them.

That's good. Wow. But yeah, so the church we were at, they didn't just stop that song.

They actually quit Bethel, but they still brought in some Hillsong Elevation.

And then when we got called out from the pulpit, it was, why do you got to talk about the songs we sing?

As if it couldn't be more obvious who you were talking about. Because those songs are attached to ministries that people are going to go follow.

And those ministries preach falsely about God. They preach falsely about Christ. And so when you attach that song to your church and sing it in there, and then you point those people in that direction, they're going to go after it.

Now you're leading them astray. You're pointing them in the direction of the wolves and saying, go there.

That's not what you want to do. Yeah. So I have a note saved in my phone.

Well, it's on my iCloud account. And the title of this note is why

I won't play Reckless Love. And this came up 2018.

Because it leads to reckless worship. Yeah. And all

I have in this note, by the way, is a direct quote from the writer of the song.

His name is Corey Asbury. And I have called him out on all social media platforms before and gotten a very snide and snarky response.

But that's him. So this is a direct quote. He says this, quote,

When I use the phrase, the reckless love of God, I'm not saying that God himself is reckless.

Pause. Yes, you are. As a reminder, if you've listened to Matter of Theology, you've heard this.

If you've listened to us talk about this before in Apologetics Live, you've heard this. You cannot divorce what

God does with who he is. You cannot divorce his actions from his attributes.

He is love. He is wrath. He is just. He is caring. He like these are the things he is.

He is an unquenchable fire. Right. It's and so you can't divorce the two.

Back to Corey Asbury. So in and of itself, you're saying when you are saying the reckless love of God, you are calling

God reckless. And that's what he doesn't understand, because anyway, dunce cap award.

Anyway, the quote continues. I am, however, saying that the way he loves in as many regards is quite so.

What I mean is this. He is utterly unconcerned with the consequences of his actions with regards to his own safety, comfort and well -being.

His love isn't crafty or slick. It's not cunning or shrewd. In fact, all things considered, it's quite childlike.

And might I even suggest sometimes downright ridiculous. OK, I'm a pause again.

He's utterly unconcerned. With the consequences of his action in regards to his own safety.

Well, OK, no, he's not concerned about his safety because he is God. But but he's he's not unconcerned with the consequences of his actions.

God's number one concern is God's glory. Make no mistake. God's number one concern is not you.

That just obvious that he doesn't read the Bible because because everywhere all throughout from cover to cover, you see

God. What God does is for his glory. And he will have his glory.

Amen. And so Corey continues his love and I quote, bankrupted heaven for you.

His love doesn't consider that who's at the center of that. Yeah. Listen to this one.

His love doesn't consider himself first. His love isn't selfish or self -serving.

He doesn't wonder what he'll gain or lose by putting himself out there. He simply gives himself away.

Listen to this. On the off chance on the off chance that always stuck with me, that one of us might look back at him and offer ourselves in return.

Period. Close quote. Yeah. That is one of the most blasphemous, heretical, anti -Christ, anti -Bible statements

I have ever read in my entire existence.

He would have been better if he just didn't issue a statement at all. Nope. Just because all he did was make it worse.

And here's how dangerous this is. It's this song is written. And for those of you who are musicians out there, you understand what

I'm about to say when I say this. It's written in a six, eight timeframe. So it's, it's very, it get,

I'm moving right now in six, eight. Like it's very, it gets you moving.

It's meant to, to, to hit a chord in you emotionally. And the melody of the song is absolutely beautiful.

If you just heard the instrumental for this song, I'd be like, man, put some lyrics behind that and you get a winner.

The problem is, is the lyrics that are behind it are written. You know, someone said earlier in the chat that we can't judge motives.

Like I would, I would disagree. Sometimes you can. Sometimes the actions are so blatant and outright, just awful.

Like with Corey Asprey in the song that you can absolutely see what he was trying to do. When you read the lyrics, not just the chorus of the song, but the verses, he was trying to pander to Calvinist a little bit.

When, when, and, and, and using very specific chosen words like chosen words, you know, like that.

And, and, but this song is written this, let me put it this way.

I'm going to, I'm going to make a very, very bold statement. This song is Satan's favorite worship song because it completely blasphemes the name of Christ and the name of God.

And you've got millions of people weekly listening to and singing the song.

Yep. Upsetting the faith of some. Right.

That's why I get so fired up. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Well, man, what an interesting show we had tonight.

Yeah. Let's see, we talked about some politics.

We talked about, uh, calling fire from heaven. We talked about worship. We talked about judging pastors, imprecatory

Psalms, back to worship. Uh, we've covered a lot of things tonight. Yep.

We've covered a lot. Uh, you, you were going to say, yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say, Kathy, don't listen to it.

She says, I've never heard the song. I don't, I don't listen to random Christian music. Okay.

Yeah. Don't, um, you're good. We're we're let us ministry minister to you right now.

Don't go listen to the song. No. Okay. It's unbiblical. No, you don't need to listen to it.

Instead, read your Bible, read about what God says about his own love and how he loves in the way that he loves.

Yeah. Do that instead. You'll be much more edified. Amen. Um, well, all right.

Well, Oh, I didn't mention the sponsors tonight. Okay. So if you need a pillow, go get a, my pillow. If you need some coffee, get some squirrely

Joe's coffee. If you need a Bible program, get some logos in your life. Okay.

Um, I think I covered it all. All right. You know, it's funny because every time I get on here and I say,

I'm not planning on doing a long show, we go like the full, we go over the full two hours.

I know. Right. So weird. I'm just going to stop saying that now because maybe then

I'll actually keep it in an hour. I think there was one time we did that. There was one time we only went like 90 minutes instead of the full one 20.

Maybe. I don't know. It might've been the time you were in the hospital. I don't know. Doing a show from the hospital bed.

I don't know. I totally did. That's dedication right there. Which is really funny. Cause if you think about when we first started matter of theology and we had shorter episodes and then they progressively got longer and longer and longer.

They sure did. So that's pretty funny. The, the growth in podcasting.

What's that? Uh, Melissa says it's my fault. I talk too much. No. Yes. Some great questions.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Don't ever, I know she's kind of joking, but don't ever feel that way.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't apologize for that. I mean, if you didn't talk, we wouldn't have any comments to put up here.

Right. Which means other people need to engage, you know? So anyways,

Chris, I'm tired. Me too. You're probably tired. We need to get out of here. Yeah. I got work tomorrow.

You got work tomorrow. Our listeners got work tomorrow. So, you know, all right, we're just going to go to bed.

All right. We'll see you next week. I don't know what the plan is for next week. Um, I don't know if Andrew's going to be back.

I don't know if I'm going to have to do a show again by myself. Cause right now I got nothing planned. Nothing planned. I don't know.

Well, there's a ton of talk. We're going to find out. Yeah. There's a ton to talk about. Yeah. So we'll see you possibly next week.

I don't know. But until then, hope you enjoyed the show. We'll see you later. Button.