1689 LBCF Chapter 3 Bible Study

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Got eyes that are just wonder. All right, please pray for us. Thank you, Christine We Learn as the days go by and We thank you for the growth
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Lord Amen, thanks,
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Christine well last week I hope everybody remembers what we covered last week for Bible study last week was on chapter 2
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We got all the way through chapter 2 Yes, we did
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We powered through the last paragraph but Rick did a great job going through that.
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I know I walked away very edified last week Is there anything that we would like to make mention of on chapter 2 that you guys can remember?
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Anything that would be beneficial for tonight's Discussion on chapter 3 that you'd like to talk about.
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Yeah, so paragraph 3 was We ran that down very quickly. Just talking about how our
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God is a triune God that there is only one being who is God There's not three
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Almighty's but one Almighty, but the Father is Almighty. The Son is Almighty the the spirits
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Almighty so each one of those Persons of the Trinity the three persons are co -equal co -eternal but yet they're distinct in recognizing them as Persons and so you would read in the text that they each have a will they can speak
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Things along those lines, but they all claim that they're that they're that one and only
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Yahweh that one and only God and all throughout the consensus all throughout the Bible is that there's
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Not three gods. There's not two gods. There's not ten gods. There's not a hundred gods, but there's one
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God and so the Logical conclusion is is if you have three persons personal
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Beings is not the right word, but personal Persons, it's just it's it's it's hard to know nine personalities
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It's so hard to even use English to try to describe it But you have these three persons that all claim that one title
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Well that one title is that one being in three persons Father Son and Holy Spirit so that's what this this pair this final paragraph here lays out for us, which
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Means that paragraph 1 paragraph 2 how God is self -existent that God has all life and glory
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That he is unchangeable that each one of these persons in paragraph 3 also
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Consists of those things so each one of the persons is unchangeable each one of the persons is eternal
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Each one of the persons is all good each one of the persons is just all the attributes that we would see in the prior
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Paragraphs exist in the three persons of the Trinity. Do you remember any of that discussion that we had it was really short
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It was right at the end of the Yes Yep, yep, so that Athanasian Creed and I seen
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Yeah Gotcha copy copy that You in nature of God's creation us
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We need God We we every society that ever that I've ever in town
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Nick finds a God find something Beyond them.
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They reach out to something. Yeah, and Thankfully our God is real.
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Our God is not a statue or God is An emblem of some sort of life.
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Our God is a real living soul And That's something that We we have to hold dearly because it is unique.
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There isn't anything else. Yeah Yeah Immediately like what you're saying in my mind takes me to Romans chapter 2 that we all can't everybody knows that there's a that there is a
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God because We can see the creation outside we know there's a creator but because our minds are so darkened and evil in its nature
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We change the image of God into that of an image of a four -footed beast or like a man or like whatever
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Winged beast outside. We seek idols to replace an actual relationship with God, right?
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And so but that that is true every Every being Needs God to exist right every in him his life and all life exists in him that way because he sustains us upholds us
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It's whether or not we have we're in relationship with God or we're against God in relationship
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Everyone reaches out or yeah Thankfully we have a real
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Look it isn't selling medicine or anything. Yeah, real. Yep Amen to that.
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Thank you, Don. I appreciate you talking about that. I Think we're gonna cover a little bit more of that here in paragraph 1 of chapter 3 here in just a moment, too
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Especially one of the very first references that we have is going to be Isaiah chapter 46, which is talking about the comparison of God Comparing that to the false gods of Babylon.
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So I'm thankful that you went there immediately Don so we can go into that here just shortly So chapter 3
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Okay, chapter 3 is a wonderful Chapter in this 1689 in the
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Westminster in the Savoy Declaration. They're all very similar and what's worded in here something that I thought was good in a
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I Have a book here that is on this book of this confession So it's a book written about a book that is written in a summation of another book.
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It's great Lots of books, but this is just a modern exposition of the 1689. It's by Sam Walder, and he's one of my favorite preachers something that he takes note of is just for the the quick outline of these paragraphs that we're gonna look over is paragraph 1 and 2
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Talk about God's decreeing of all things that it's meticulous in its way that it's everything from the dust to galaxies everything from time to hairs on our head
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God is sovereign over all those things and so it's Universality is in paragraph 1 and its unconditionality is in paragraph 2
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I think that this is kind of good to keep in the back of our minds when we look over this and then paragraph 3 to 7 would just take note of the distinguishing of the selectivity in paragraph 3
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The unchanging Specificity in paragraph 4. I think we're gonna see this when we read through this the positive election of those predestined in paragraph 5 and 6 and Also, it's prudent handling in Verse or paragraph 7 and so before we even read today paragraph 1
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I do want to read with us paragraph 7 just at the beginning Because this is always helpful for me whenever we talk about any of these things and the reason
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I like to talk about this first Is that the book of Job that we are going through and I'll make mention of this several times as we go through the book
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Of Job. Job, the whole reason God answers Job out of a whirlwind Right is because his friends have wrongly described who
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God is and so God is rebuking them in those Those chapters and so when we talk about anything about God We want to be accurate in our handling of those things and God's predestination has sovereignty
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God's decree here in chapter 3 is Something that a lot of people can come to wrong conclusions with it dangerous conclusions with it and so paragraph 7 says this the doctrine which is referring to the doctrine of Predestination sovereignty
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God's decree the doctrine of the high mystery of Predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care
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So that those heeding the will of God revealed in his word and obeying him may be assured of their eternal
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Election by the certainty of their effectual call in this way The doctrine will give reason for praise reverence and admiration of God as well as humility
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Diligence and rich comfort to all those who sincerely obey the gospel and so God's sovereignty
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According to that paragraph how these people wrote this down is that it's supposed to be a comfort to us But it's something that we have to handle very very carefully because it can be taken in long directions
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And so today even if we do look at analogies on how these things work
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Which I like analogies they can be very helpful But when it comes to mysteries in the in the in the Gospels when
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I refer to mysteries I mean like Jesus being born of a virgin right or the inspired
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Bible There's things that I don't know exactly how those things took place scientifically like Don would know about Adams Or about the sea or about any of those things, right?
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There's these things that are Mysterious to us in the Bible, but there's still truths in the
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Bible that we are to declare and so sometimes it's just helpful to not tell an analogy and we just simply state the truth as Fact because it is fact according to God's Word and we let the cards lay on the table where they ought to lay so Let's look at paragraph one.
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Would anyone like to volunteer to read paragraph one for us tonight? Okay.
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Thanks, buddy Well really and unchangeably yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin has fellowship with This decree does not violate the will of the teacher or take away
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The free working or contingency of second causes on the contrary. These are established by God's decree
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In this decree God's wisdom is this book is displayed in directing all things and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated
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Thank you very much I appreciate you reading that something that I want to make note of that this confession uses and employs in its language of causes is
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Turn with me to the very next page in chapter 5 paragraph 2 So we from listening to what
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Patti just said we heard the word said second dairy causes or second causes in paragraph 2 we would read of chapter 5 divine province this is all things come to pass unchangeably and certainly in relation to the foreknowledge and Decree, that's what we're reading right now in decree of God.
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Who is the first cause thus nothing happens by chance But nothing happens to anyone by chance or outside of God's providence yet by the same providence
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God arranges all things to occur according to the nature of second causes either necessarily freely or in response to other causes so this is where We could employ analogy after an analogy and it might sound good to us it might not and I might attempt to try to employ an analogy for us here in a moment, but What how would you guys define that word cause
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If somebody came up to you on the streets or tonight at Bible study and said what does cause mean?
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What is the definition of cause? Okay, so bringing about something.
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That's what you're the first part of that said, okay The act of bringing about something.
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Yeah. Yeah outside pressures outside Obstacles Something not mainstream that causes a deflection or Misdirection.
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Yeah It's it's challenging to sometimes define words, right?
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It's very challenging right because sometimes like What is cold mean? Well cold is when it's cold out, right?
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Like it's hard to like define something without using that original word, right? and so when we talk about cause
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I think to bring about is actually a pretty accurate definition right to to bring about the action of bringing something into Whatever your end result was that's what kind of cause that picture of cause means for us
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And so the first thing that I would like you to take notice of Let's go ahead and read from Isaiah chapter 46
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Verse 10 just the first scriptural reference on here and as you're turning there I want you to be thinking through something
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Isaiah chapter 46 and what I want us to be thinking through right now is
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What takes place? first in the order of events an
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Event that takes place like us coming to Bible study tonight.
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Let's say that's the event we talked about Did us coming to Bible study take place first?
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Or did God's predestination for knowledge of us coming to Bible study tonight take place first Which one what's that B?
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Okay, we had an answer B. Would everybody conclude that's the right answer. I Would say so right right
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God existed before us God has all knowledge. He has predestined all things.
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We're gonna see that here in this text however We have to realize
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That we still came here to Bible study, right? We still walked in through these doors. We still all opened up our
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Bibles We all opened up the 1689 tonight in this way We brought about something right?
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So God first was the one to bring about something by predestinating it to take place
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We are secondary in that that we were the second causes. We were the second ones to bring this about Now did anyone in here have a gun forced the back of their head as she walked in the back of the door?
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Blink three times if you need help The point of this is is that We ought to not look at God's predestination.
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This is where analogies are bad, right? We can't create an analogy or a picture of God That makes it seem like he's holding a gun to the back of our head making us do what we don't want to be doing
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Right typically unless you're in a married situation, right? Typically you do whatever you want to do and things happen according to how you wanted it to happen, right?
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Okay, and that way we're free right but it's still according to God's first causes predestination this is where it's a great high mystery, but that's the truth that we have to we have to come to the conclusion with and Instead of looking at God is holding the gun to the back of our heads what
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I would rather say that the better thing to look at is is shaping clay according to what when you shape a pot a piece of clay or Whatever the whatever you want to look at this is in the
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Bible So I'm okay with using this as an analogy, right? If you have a pot and you want to shape it to an image that's in your mind you have the authority over that clay to do with it as you would will right and so in that way the
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Father God has Shapen all things according to what he wants right according to his will and so that's what we would see in the first cause
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The second cause is the actual clay coming together and being molded in that sense So Isaiah chapter 46, this is the first scriptural reference and this will go back to what
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Don started us out with saying tonight But Isaiah chapter 46 verse 10 would anybody like to volunteer
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Jonathan? Would you please like to volunteer to read that for us? Thank you
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Say my purpose will be established and I will accomplish Amen so all things that are taking place
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The end before the beginning is all according to God's pleasure It's all what he wants to take place, right?
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and so when we take this still shot and I talk about this a lot and often and I try to help reason with people through These things if you take a pause at a moment
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You can look at something and think that you're looking at it objectively and say that this looks wrong
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How could this take place right and there is wrong and hardship and sin that does take place in the world but if you were to take it a really a 2020 view you get to the end of this story that we're all in today and you were to look back at it
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Not just the still shot you would say this is a glorious picture that was bringing about something, right?
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It was for God's glory that these things are taking place. And so I would encourage you. Yes mourn be sad fine fine
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See the hardship that's in front of you in the still shot, but don't stop there realize that there's a greater picture
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That's unfolding out in the midst of things But Isaiah chapter 46 what you just read there that that verse what's really unique about this text
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And I think I've mentioned this as well from this chapter In Isaiah chapter 46
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God is talking about prophesying through the prophet Isaiah about a future day of captivity
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When the people of Babylon are going to sinfully Take away
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God's people from their nation sinfully build up idols Sinfully have people worship them so on and so forth and yet what
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God is saying is I know that that's going to take place I'm prophesying to you that those things are gonna take place and not only that But they're gonna take place because I am better than those false idols those false idols just sit there
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But yet I'm the God that has caused these things to take place I'm the God that has predestined these events to happen.
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And so again you step back and you say wow, that is a Miraculous a marvelous picture of in its totality
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After we would then see the Israelites being released from captivity where they were justly needing to go to For those 70 years that are prophesied in the book of Jeremiah, so on and so forth
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All these things are creating a beautiful picture But what separates God from false gods in Isaiah 46 is
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God's sovereignty God uses his sovereignty God just talks about his sovereignty.
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God talks about his decree as that which is separating him from false idols false gods
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How many of us in here could name? Religions name false teachers name false thinkings that try to remove
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God's sovereignty from him and Would honestly in my opinion be elevating a false idol like the idols of Babylon Above God's stature according to how he described himself as being superior to them
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Is there any religions that do that I can tell you right now that Mormonism is one of them right that they're they're
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Golden cow that they love to talk about besides families can be together forever is
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Free agency right free agency and it's almost this thinking that God knows all possibilities, but doesn't know which one you will choose
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Right, so he's not all -knowing at the end of the day, right? He knows all possibilities and this confession actually talks about God knowing all
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Possibilities, but he knows for certain what the actuality of what's going to take place because it's according to his foreknowledge
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We'll talk about that paragraph. Maybe today maybe next week There's several false religions that do this.
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There's false either So I would even say that there's falsities within Christianity This is an area that Christians often disagree upon but provisionism is one of them
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I would say What are some more Rick that you can think of off the top of your head
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Yeah Plagianism semi -plagianism, there's a whole bunch of different names, but they're all the same
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They're very very similar and I would say that it's typically done out of good merit, right?
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It's it's this idea that we need to defend the character of God and how could we think that God?
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Predestines bad things to take place and so it's usually starting from that Point, but I think
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I think the error in that and I think Rick has talked about this Is that we need to place God in a class of his own right as Carl said last week.
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He's totally unknowable not unknowable, but Uncomprehensible, right?
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He's incomprehensible So we have to put God in his own class and take the truths that scripture describe him as Put them in that class and then we have a class of ourselves right that that we're not infinite.
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We're not Omni present we're not No, we're not all these omnis that God is right
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And so we're in a different class and so we need to be able to approach this kind of stuff maybe setting our emotions a certain point at the door and Laying the cards on the table.
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Like I said place them out. This is true This is what God's Word has said and I'm not going to try to defend
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God because does God need us to defend him Not saying no as he chuckles, right
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Right, yeah, we can't manipulate him.
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Why are we going back to the question of prayer? Yeah, yeah, that's a very it's almost it's almost this superficial prosperity gospel in that sense, right like somebody that has that kind of idea might not say
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I Love it So let's look at another scriptural reference because I think
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I really love these scriptural references that it puts out for us We could read each one of them
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Let's go ahead and read Romans 9 15 We'll skip these two Ephesians 11 1 11 talks about how he predestines all things according to his own will
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So very similar to what we had in Isaiah 46 Hebrews chapter 6 verse 17 We read that text in our
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Bible studies already That God being Jesus being the better how he's actually willed for us to be inheritance
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Inherit the promises I believe is what Hebrews chapter 6 17 gets at it's not quoted exactly that way, but let's go to Romans chapter 9 verse 15
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Romans 9 verse 15 and 18 is what it has here. I'll read this one for us For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom
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I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion and then verse 18 says
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So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires
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Once again, let the cars lay on the table where they're at Take a pic stand back picture and realize that this is for God's glory according to his purpose
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Right, but at the end of the day, this is true God Has mercy on whom he desires for his own good pleasure for his own glory to demonstrate his own
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Worth in a relationship aspect towards them and he hardens also likewise whom he desires to heart
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If we have something Good that happens into our life He wants us in the mercy aspect.
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He wants us to praise him Good aspects of life and then when trouble hits us meaning hardens he wants us to Great question what
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I would say is No in the sense because this text is talking about salvation, right?
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And so so it's talking about Jonathan if you believe in Jesus today and if you believe in the gospel the life death burial and resurrection
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God had mercy on you because it was according to his desire But today if you came into church today, which
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I know you haven't But if you did come into church today with a hardened heart rejecting Jesus as the Messiah You were hardened according to God's desire.
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That's essentially what it's getting out in this text However, it is true that when blessings do come or hardships do come that's also according to God's pleasure it's according to God's decree in that way and How you respond ought to always be with worship towards them ought to always be with prayer towards them actually
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Speaking on prayer. There's a text. I think would be helpful to read on this topic. Let's go to James chapter 4
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I don't think this is a reference in paragraph 1. I think it's a reference somewhere else But let's go to James chapter 4 real fast.
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I think it's James chapter 4. I can't write this one down. Ah Yes, James chapter 4.
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I was right James chapter 4 verse 13 through 17
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And just think through this think through this. All right, so verse 13 come now you who say
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Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit
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Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow you are a
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Vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away Instead you ought to say this if the
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Lord wills We will live and also do this or that but as it is
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You boast in your arrogance all such boasting is evil therefore to one who knows to do what is right?
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The right thing and does not do it to him it is sin so There's a little bit of double things that are going on right here, right?
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So the person that's saying tomorrow I will go here and do this and this and this which is being rebuked in this text that still is happening to who's according to whose will
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According to this text. It's still taking place because it's happening according to God's will that that's taking place yet It's still the sin of doing that is being attributed to who?
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The person who's doing it the secondary cause the person that had that brought up in their heart the person that had that attitude
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Towards God even though it was according to God's will it's still being attributed to them as sin
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So here we would see God's sovereignty and man's responsibility very very clearly in this text
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Yet the better way the more appropriate way this same text in James is the text that we would see that The righteous prayer the prayer of a righteous man availeth much right it it does a lot in many senses
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However, it says in this text that even when we pray The way that we ought to be praying is
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Lord if this is to your will We'll do this and that tomorrow, right?
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We want to subject our understanding and recognizing God's sovereignty at all times and all things
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That doesn't mean that we can't request or praise or think it Just means that all those things gonna be
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Taken through the lens and in the scope of God's sovereignty in those things
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Savvy making sense. I was very private right away of saying that savvy, but It's it's a hard thing to comprehend.
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It's a Doctrine that I really enjoy speaking about Don you have any thoughts on this so far?
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I did tell you about God's will and province it
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I was reading this week that There's a I can't recall but Christ was speaking to His people
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Jewish people and there happened to be in the in the in the midst a lady
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Who was not Jewish and she said my daughter is very ill And he and Christ said,
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I'm sorry. I'm here for my people And she kept kept at him saying, you know
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Please for you know, even the dogs take from the table. Yep, and then if Christ said you're
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Your face has won your in other words. He He healed the daughter because of the mother's faith in him
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Yeah, not me. She was not doing so he was He was here for his people.
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Yep, and he did this because of her thing Yeah, no, that's remarkable.
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And and it what it says what it says to me is prayer
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Well, we are told Hmm squeaky wheel gets gets the oil.
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Is that what you're saying? I mean,
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I don't know. That's where yeah, I always go back on these. It's like well, yeah God's will but then you read one like that where it's
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Be persistent. Yep So it's To me it's still it is
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It is it absolutely is it falls definitely in that mystery category on how things take place
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Right Which this okay that right there is a great example though of the pitfall
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When somebody only focuses on God's sovereignty and doesn't think about anything that we have a relationship with God, right?
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I'm not saying that you don't that you do that We we would all fall into that category at certain times right but there's some theologies
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There's some that are called hyper Calvinism, right? That's something we want to stray away from and the thinking on that is well
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God's sovereign I don't need to do anything right? I can sit on my couch eat pizza. I Eat bacon you guys are like man.
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That's the type of theology. I it sounds good, right? Yep We don't need to do anything
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God's elect will be called they're gonna be saved regardless if I go out and do evangelism or not Right, which is totally counterintuitive to what
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God's Word has commanded us to do right? So we are told to pray yet We're told that it happens according to his his sovereignty his will his plan same thing with evangelism, right?
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We're told that God has elect that he calls all those that he desires to come to him yet we're also told go on to the nations and proclaim the gospel right and so Mystery category in my opinion.
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I think a lot about that with evangelism to Same exact Yep Yeah, it's it's challenging you go knocking on doors for two weeks
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Just every single day and no one's talking to you longer than two minutes and it's like, ah, man Maybe it would be easier if I just remember that God and just and you it's hard.
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It's a hard thing navigate for sure Rick we're gonna say something. I look like you were gonna say something
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And Justice and so she is persistent knocks knocks knocks knocks knocks and finally he opens the door and gives justice because you
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Yeah And so use that as an example of what we're supposed to pray to God Be persistent.
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So it's definitely them both But it's in our persistence in us like God will change the direction that he appears to be going but he's not actually like oh,
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I Planned all eternity past that doesn't do this action. But now you change my mind.
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It was no I was Head instruction, but my plan was that you would then
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Be persistent prayer, right? And I would answer that prayer and change the direction. I seemingly going genuinely respond to it, but it was still
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Ordained right and so it's still the the both it's still the both No, and so when we pray it's our heart that changes, right
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So prairie praying aligns with So it changes us so whether he answered a prayer in a way that we want to or doesn't
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The ultimately we would be okay with that. We'd get peace right his will be done, right? It's conforming us to that image of Christ, right?
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I yeah. No, I see that And we're finding seeds that to find us in the process, yeah, right we're drawn closer to him
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We participate as his means. Yep So that's that That is something that this actually even says right that that all secondary causes are still can or what does it say?
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This decree does not violate the will of the creatures or take away the free working or contingencies of second causes on the contrary
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These are established on God's decree, right? So us as the secondary causes these second causes it's still according to God's decree or not.
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So I appreciate that. Thanks And so the this is a mystery like it says, yeah
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Seven paragraph seven. It's a mystery, but we that but it is very clear that God is forwarding stuff
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But we saw the responsibility. Yep Just for our own actions. Yep, and like with evangelism we it's
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Even though we were supposed to go out. It's a relief that it's not up to how we want to do well
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But it's not man, that person would be saved if I would have been more persuasive or Clear in my speech, but now they're going to hell because right
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No, it's on God. He's the one that has a saving. Yes in charges. It's a relief to us okay,
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I did my best for the glory God and He's the one that's yeah Yeah, and I'm obedient so Which that even goes to 1st
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Corinthians chapter 3 that talks about how he he watered and I planted But it was
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God who was causing the growth. So so in the in us growing in evangelism and growing and prayer
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It's still God that's causing that the first seedling that was planted in our lives to the first root that actually
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Took that was all still according to God's desire. It was according to God's who's causing that growth, right?
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I appreciate that. All right. So would anybody like to volunteer to read paragraph 2 for tonight?
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Okay However his decree of anything is not based on foreseeing in the future or foreseeing that it would
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Okay, what does that teach Jonathan So that means that God's look in the future and see okay.
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Don is a choice he's gonna make Choose a or B and based off that that's what
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I'm gonna choose It's not like God doesn't look in the future and see the possible choices. And well, I know Donald you know
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He does but he's not he's not basing his choices for what's gonna happen
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Off of what we are choosing to do so, okay. So in the table that you gave
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John has two options Meaning God knows all things of say, okay, he knows what's gonna happen in either
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Choice, right? Yeah, so it is so God doesn't like Fast forward the tape the movie to see how it's gonna end then go back.
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Yep. That's how I planned it Like I saw how it ended up and now I'm saying that's how it's gonna be
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He doesn't base his What we're gonna do
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Just think about it philosophically for a moment, okay Would God be learning at that point if he if he had to look through the corridors of time, right?
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That's this is something that people say a lot God was looking through the corridors of time and he sees every possibility of everything that takes place and Then he thinks to himself.
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Okay, this one right here that gets the most people say that's the one I'm going to choose That would mean that God didn't know that already and God didn't choose that already and that God had to learn that information so there's there's
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Theological problems with that because then that would mean God doesn't know all things because he learned something
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So at some point in time and so on at some point in God's character He wasn't all -knowing and so that means he's then changed
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How can you have faith in a God that changes who said that he died for you on the cross? You can see how like this has a domino
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Effects. Can you have faith in Jesus Christ? Who actually does have a shifting shadow in his character who actually does change who?
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May not be the same yesterday today and tomorrow as Don said like that's the issue Yeah, so what my point of this is is if God Doesn't know all things and God had to look at something to be able to make a decision first on it
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That would mean God isn't the same yesterday today and tomorrow Which has really bad theological consequences the further down that line, right?
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So in the example of that is thief on the cross next to Jesus Can he take any assurance and Jesus telling him today?
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You'll be with me in paradise when Jesus doesn't know all things if Jesus didn't know all things.
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Could you have any faith in that? Exactly and that's okay
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Which he's outside of time because time is still has his creation in that way He does yeah
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Because Yep, that's just what
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I was about to bring up, but you said it in a more smart So, okay if God knows
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I can't be empty choices But I choose B, but God also knew The outcome of either a or B, but God knows all things.
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I knew I was going to choose B. Then why would he? focus on Outcome of a if he already knew
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I was going to choose B Mm -hmm. It's just because it's within it's within his knowledge of knowing the possibilities of things not not the actuality is what
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I would say so like example of that is oh There's a great example in Scripture of where God said that surely if you'd not done this these people would have killed you
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What text is that? Oh What is the lady's name that lies it's talked about in James chapter 2
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If she had not hid the slaves Or hid the hid the spies. Excuse me Yes, Rahab.
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There's a text with where it talks about Rahab how God says if you not done this surely they would have died
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Right, so God knew the possibility of that outcome if she had not done something
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Those spies would have been killed. So it's not saying that God God knew what the outcome was always going to be he knew that she was going to lie
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She he knew that she was going to hide those captives, but he was reassuring her and saying if you had not done this
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They would have died right so God knows possibilities, but he decrees the actualities
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It's a whole down all rabbit trail crazy stuff, right?
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It's something What's the rabbit trail that you're thinking about right now But He decreed for her to be that secondary, right
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But he he had he decreed for her to be a secondary cause and to bring about that, right?
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So I would still say that right Right Right Right, okay
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So and that that's a great thing right so is Jesus Christ the salvation through Jesus plan a or is that plan
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B I Would say that's planning. That was the plan that was That's the plan
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That was the plan First Don't get into this conversation
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Unless she's like a super theologian that would be cool then just go ahead and start talking about it
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Gotcha Rick were you gonna say something right there?
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I saw you open your mouth for a second and then Okay, so let's read paragraph 3 we've got another 10 minutes that we can discuss some of this stuff
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I'll read paragraph 3 for us it says by God's decree and for the demonstration of his glory some human beings and angels are predestined or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ to the praise of his glorious grace
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Others are left to live in their sin leading to their just condemnation to the praise of his glorious justice and if that isn't a
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Crazy enough paragraph. Let's read for two. It says these predestined so it's talking about those that were just mentioned these predestined and foreordained angels and people are
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Individually and unchangeably Designated and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or decreased interesting stuff
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Yep, the numbers gonna be the same no matter Right, it's interesting stuff
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Don I see you shaking your head a little bit thinking on that To me
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God can't create Individuals knowing that they will fail knowing that they're damned to hell.
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I Just can't accept That God creates only to destroy
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And it's just my my own mindset that says that that's the way it is
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I agree, but I'm gonna Attack on a different angle and I'm gonna be like totally wrong
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Like That God uses Destruction to like He uses destruction to like guide us to him to like the flood
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That God is the commander of hell and from chapter 3 verse 4 when it says in here or either 3 that Humans and angels are predestined like Satan.
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He knew that Satan was going to Disobey God and therefore bound him to hell so he was predestined to go to hell
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But yet God still created Satan for that purpose. Yeah It's Remarkable again, this is where we have to put
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God in his own class. Don't let's With our God -given emotions.
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We got to sometimes check it at the door when we approach this doctrine a little bit, right? One thing
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I would let's look here at Romans 9. So a text that we already read here And I want to then go back up to evangelism too because I think there's a lot of Remarkableness to think about even on this thing.
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I really I take courage in like this I read a text like that, but I sometimes walk away like thinking man.
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I need to do more evangelism, right? So Let's look at this real fast verse 18 and on in Romans 9 it so knowing well
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Let's actually back up to verse 16. So we read 15. We read 18. Let's read 16 and on it says
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So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs but on God who has mercy for the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose
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I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and in order that my name might be proclaimed through the whole earth
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So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires
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You will say to me then why does he still find fault for who resists his will what a great question that this
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The author of Romans Paul is posing for us on the contrary This is him answering himself on the contrary.
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Who are you? Oh man who answers back to God? Will the thing molded say to the molder?
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Why did you make me like this or does not the potter have authority over the clay from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for Dishonorable use and what if God wanting to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for Destruction and in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy
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Which he prepared beforehand for glory even us Whom he also called not from among the
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Jews only but from them also among them Gentiles So I think what
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Paul even does in this text for us is He puts is the Potter similar to the clay is the
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Potter similar to the pot No a potter is far superior than his creation his pot, right?
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So Paul in this text is putting God in a class That he is alone in right a
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Sadie right that this is this is a class that no one else is like it's incomprehensible right in this way but we have to walk away with saying
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God has prepared some for honor and some for Destruction and wrath because that's what
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God has described himself through Paul here in this text is doing right and so thinking on that that question on evangelism
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Vessel that was made for honor in the sense of one that has had mercy given to him unjust
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Undeserving not unjust undeserving favor of God in that way There's been several times when
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I'll be doing evangelism or something along those lines and people will say things like don't you have anything better? To be doing right and that my response always is to preach
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Christ crucified is always the best thing I can be doing Right, and so it's almost like if I am if any of us go out on the streets
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And we never see a single person get saved through our effort of evangelism, right?
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It's still the pot that has been created for honorable use that is proclaiming the
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Potter that has made them like that and Worship is being given to the Potter for that and it's being proclaimed to those that are for destruction and so if evangelism is seen in that light that it's just it's for the purpose of Proclaiming and God is the one that's doing the work.
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I can still walk away with knowing that it's okay that I will never increase God's kingdom a number more than what has been predestined to increase in that way
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That's a personal conviction that I've had. I would love to see somebody come to Christ and I've seen a few people
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I will take that back I've seen a few people but I would say that was according to God's predestined plan for them to be to come to know him in that time and I just was
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Thankful enough the vessel that was used right that pot that was used Apart from any of their own
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Fault or anything they do. How does that not make God a monster? Hmm monster?
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I Do you have an answer to that for yourself I have an answer to it But I don't know if it's the answer that you're looking for So like how
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I would look at something like Is that we have to again put
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God in his own class right that that God So we can't hold
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God culpable Because we are of such lesser being than him that it is not even right for us to Obscribe to God sin or something along those lines.
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Let's even what this confession says that he's not the author of sin He can't be accused of those things. That's what Romans 9 says that we are not able to say
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Why do you still find fault for who resists his will right? And so the answer to that is if I describe
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God as a monstrous God That's a lack of my understanding of who God is, right? Right, so that's trying you trying to boast in your own
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Pride and trying to say that you could do it better than God could do it, right? Which that shows a false idol, right?
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What did I Babylon show? Oh my gosh, we're getting really in That's great
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Just through this reading and this That's there
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I suppose Was able to reach into me to where I I can see
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God is God God's plan is God's plan and I'm just a mortal and I I have to accept
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God and what God knows Never know
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Amen I'm I'm encouraged Praise the
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Lord, that's wonderful That's so that's what brought up what
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Atheists or Apostates still do that and Unless you have a performed perspective.
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I have no answer. All you can say is agree with them. It's cool Yeah, I got this evening or then you go to know everyone's going to heaven.
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Mm -hmm, or you make God into well God is actually sovereign that No, he wants to save people.
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He can't he's not powerful enough to save people Your help. Yeah, you can't do it.
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And so Unless you have the idea of God's sovereign over everything then you lesson so With with that when someone brings up an accusation like that or you have those thoughts
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Sir, that's what the Bible teaches. Like what's the point of anything? I doesn't seem fair You have to look at it from God's perspective not for man's perspective mean a god -centered view as much as we can you
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And If Like is is
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God Well, that's why I keep going. I would go back to my Lego. Yeah, like Have Legos.
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Can I do whatever I want with my Legos? Yes, if I want thrown away and my morally evil throwing away
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No, it's my Legos We think that we are of more value to God than Legos are to us and that's not like there's
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That relate in that analogy we would be even less than dirt. Yeah, and And so we got a flip so you can't got truck your motions for a second
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To think through it from God's perspective and then you can turn it back on again
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Say even though we are less than dust And we have rebelled and shaken our fists and cursed the
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God that has made us and give us life Blesses he still chose to become one of us and died for us and it was his free choice to save some
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If he saved everybody that there'd be no choice at all. Yes. They would appreciate to save no one There'd be no choice.
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And so the only way that God could have choice to be the supreme being the source of all existence is if he had
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The final the supreme choice if he actually had a free choice to save or to not say so You see, okay.
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God loves us and then even furthermore you can realize okay Well people aren't going to hell just because God decided to actually commit sin.
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Yeah To me it still is that we're so bound by this time by this timeline
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That we're on Everything's linear. It's true to me.
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That is why we can never think like God. Yeah Right to rationalize
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God's Decisions. Yep, because we're so linear because I mean again he knows
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Who was gonna Yeah, it's gonna be saved and who's not before he created them
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Yeah, so when this says that he created some to destruction and some to To glory.
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Yep Again, we look at that on the timeline where he knew where he's standing outside time
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It's it's it's so hard to rationalize And that's like what my mind took me when
01:00:00
Don just said that that breakthrough that he was just describing like that's where My mind just takes me that I am undeserving
01:00:06
Completely undeserving of God's grace completely undeserving that he died for me I'm gonna praise him.
01:00:13
I'm gonna I'm gonna worship him for for Having myself be a part of this plan that has brought his sheep towards him, right?
01:00:22
That that deserves glory and worship More so than what my vocal cords can ascribe to him
01:00:29
And so that's I appreciate hearing something like that from Don. Well, I saw your hand up Jonathan. What were you gonna say?
01:00:36
Where you were going to say something that looked like there for a moment if We are predestined before we are created
01:00:47
Take could be taking this out of context. How do we know? Whether we're going to heaven or to hell no matter what works
01:00:57
No, don't make this in the wrong context, but from what works we do here on earth.
01:01:04
Mm -hmm How do you know? Yeah, okay. You want my my pastoral answer for you?
01:01:10
Sure. Okay. Do you know do you believe Jesus is the Christ? Okay, do you believe that he's the Son of God?
01:01:16
He lived for you I died for you and he rose again on the third day That's how you know
01:01:21
If you have faith and trust and assurance and that taking place on behalf of for you
01:01:27
Not just a merely a knowledge of those things, but that you you trust in those things taking place.
01:01:32
That's how you know Once you believe that those things Then you know what you're what you were predestined for.
01:01:42
Yep, essentially Yeah that that you are predestined to worship him for doing those things for all eternity
01:01:50
Yep So that that's where when we talk about works and fruit The the way that I would look at it is is if you're a branch that's on the vine
01:02:00
Where do you look to get your source of nourishment from the root right the vine the the the place that you?
01:02:07
Receive that nourishment is where you look towards you look towards Jesus Christ the true vine, right? If I'm another branch along that vine and I want to look at you as another branch
01:02:18
And I want to say does that look like it's a branch that's on the vine or not. Where do I look? I Look at the fruit, right?
01:02:25
That's what is an evidential thing for me to see For that it appears that you are taking place in the vine, right?
01:02:33
And so that's when you talk about fruit and works. It's to glorify
01:02:39
God and it's to walk in these things that are prepared for us before the foundations of the world to walk in But it's also an evidential thing that helps
01:02:49
If you never talked about Jesus Christ, you never prayed you never read the Bible You never went to church all these kind of things.
01:02:56
Is it true that you could be saved? Absolutely, it could be true that you are still believing in Jesus But if I was to stand back and look at you in an unbiased way,
01:03:05
I would walk away probably saying what? You're probably not saved right? And so that's where fruit really helps with us being able not judging correctly
01:03:15
But judge righteously and see is God working in this person's life. Does that make sense? Yeah That's what
01:03:25
James chapter 2 is talking about when it says faith without works is dead being alone It's just talking about faith that I can see
01:03:30
I can see as a as human to human I can see faith in your life because you're doing works for the glory of God, right?
01:03:38
As every other text in the Bible says that we were saved By faith alone in Christ alone because that's talking about God looking at us in that sense that we have faith in God it's a
01:03:49
Longer conversation. I'm getting into a rabbit trail now. Sorry guys 808 It's 808.
01:03:55
Would anybody like to volunteer to pray us out for the evening? mind if I pray I Want to pray let's pray
01:04:03
Lord God, I just thank you so much Lord just to you echo what dawn has said tonight
01:04:08
Lord that The breakthrough in the knowing that you have a plan that is according
01:04:14
To your foreknowledge that you have brought this about the work of the Spirit Lord that you've brought
01:04:19
The praise of our songs and our worship you have brought this about in our lives
01:04:24
Lord you Deserve glory and honor and praise Lord. So let us give that to you now.
01:04:30
Let us give that to you tomorrow Let us give that to you for eternity Let us be conformed into the image of Christ day by day through prayer and evangelism
01:04:41
Lord, let us do these things according to your will earnestly Petitioning for these things before you
01:04:47
Lord God we thank you for the texts that we read through tonight and just the ways that they were able to speak to each one of us
01:04:54
And Lord, I thank you just for tonight ask this in Your son's name
01:05:02
Jesus Christ. Amen. Well Brothers sisters, it was blessing to have