Should Christians Ever Pray Imprecatory Prayers?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, should

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Christians ever pray imprecatory prayers? Now, this is a funny topic,

01:45

Tim, because, you know, I mean, not even, maybe even a year and a half ago,

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I'm not even sure that I knew what an imprecatory prayer even was.

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I had never even heard of them before, which was, you know, mostly my own fault if I had just read through the

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Bible and really taken my Bible study seriously. I probably would have figured out what they were.

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I mean, I think part of it is I knew there were, you know, in the Old Testament especially, there were certain parts of the

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Old Testament that seemed to be very, like, very, you know, at times, you know, graphic, obviously, but then also the

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Israelites often called on God to basically judge all of their enemies, right?

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And so I knew that was there, but then I didn't know that it had, like, its own category, basically, its own, like, title that we can call these things by.

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And so I learned that they had a name when

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I was in college, when I was going to school. And, you know, it was just something that I think it really, they really fascinated me because here we were learning about something as we were going through our

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Old Testament. It was probably Old Testament survey that we were going through this. And, you know, our professor brought up imprecatory prayers.

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And, you know, for about a day, maybe a day and a half, we had discussions about what do we do with this part of the

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Bible? And I just found it so interesting because I had never even heard people talk about this kind of stuff before.

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And the very few times that I did hear people, hear Christians talking about imprecatory type prayers, especially, like, in the

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Psalms, it was mostly just trying to not have to explain them or what their purpose was and just trying to get out of that.

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And, you know, not necessarily always apologize, but just try and not have to talk about it, basically, because it's icky or, you know, whatever the reasoning was.

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And so I'm interested to have this conversation. They sound mean, right? Yeah, they do.

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I mean, some of them, they sound pretty mean, huh? But it is an interesting conversation that I'm looking forward to having tonight because I think this probably is one of the aspects of the

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Old Testament that it seems like a lot of times it's just mostly skipped over entirely and you just hope no one brings it up, right?

04:30

Yeah, basically. Yeah, most people don't want to deal with the reality of the kind of prayers that are in the

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Psalms, but then not only in the Psalms. Jesus also is known for making some imprecatory prayers, and you see them throughout the

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New Testament, too. So the primary example is in the Psalms, but then most people don't really pay attention that well to a lot of the

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New Testament stuff. But then, yeah, when push comes to shove, most people are going to lean on the love your enemies kind of passages and not really have a great explanation for how to harmonize these things.

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Yeah. So in having this conversation and trying to answer the question, should

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Christians ever pray imprecatory prayers, it'd probably be good to start off, you know, for the people who were, like, past Harrison, you know,

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Harrison two years ago who didn't even know what an imprecatory prayer was, why don't we just start with defining what even is an imprecatory prayer?

05:27

Yeah, well, that's a forgivable error because it is kind of a word that isn't found in the

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Bible so far as I can see. And so just not knowing that term does not make you, you know, guilty of some sort of scandalous sin along those lines.

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But then a good example of this might be Psalm 109, and it's a little bit long, but I think it may be helpful just to read it and get a feel for what an imprecatory prayer sounds like.

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But then when you're thinking about imprecatory prayers in general, they're just prayers that are going to invoke judgment or calamity on a person.

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So Psalm 109 to the choir master, Psalm of David. So he's basically just starting out with the sins of others against him, right?

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They encircle me with words of hate, attack me without cause. In return for my love, they accuse me, but I give myself to prayer.

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So they reward me evil for good and hatred for my love. He says, appoint a wicked man against him.

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So this is where the imprecatory part comes in. So he's explained the situation. Here's the imprecatory part. And it kind of goes on and on.

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Appoint a wicked man against me. Let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he has tried, let him come forth guilty.

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Let his prayer be counted as sin. May his days be few. May another take his office.

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May his children be followless, and his wife a widow. May his children wander about and beg, seeking food from the ruins they inhabit.

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May the creditor seize all that he has. May strangers plunder the fruits of his toil.

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Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor any pity to his followless children. May his posterity be cut off.

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May his name be blotted out in the second generation. May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the

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Lord, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the

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Lord continually, so his sins. Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

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For he did not remember to show kindness, but pursued the poor and the needy and the brokenhearted to put them to death.

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He loved to curse. Let curses come upon him. He did not delight in blessing. May it be far from him.

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He clothed himself with cursing as a coat. May it soak his body like water, like oil into his bones.

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May it be like a garment that he wraps around him, like a belt that he puts on every day. May this be the reward of my accusers from the

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Lord, of those who speak evil against my life. But you, O my God, deal on my behalf for your name's sake, because of your steadfast love is good.

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Deliver me. For I am poor and needy, and my heart is stricken within me. I am gone like a shadow at evening.

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I am shaken off like a locust. My knees are weak through fasting. My body has become gaunt with no fat.

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I am an object of scorn to my accusers when they see me. They wag their heads. Help me, O Lord, my

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God. Save me according to your steadfast love. Let them know that this is your hand. You, O Lord, have done it.

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Let them curse, but you will bless. They arise and are put to shame, but your servant will be glad.

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May my accusers be clothed with dishonor. May they be wrapped in their own shame as a cloak.

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With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord. I will praise him in the midst of the throne. For he stands at the right hand of the needy one to save him from those who condemn his soul to death.

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So there's an example. That's funny. There's probably like three or four different places in there that I thought it was going to stop.

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And then he just kept going, man. He kept going. So that sounds pretty mean to pray.

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It's very detailed and specific. Yeah, it was oddly specific.

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I mean, this was a premeditated prayer. It was a premeditated prayer, man.

09:28

That's right. He had it mapped out. He did. So you've given us a basic definition of an imprecatory prayer.

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You've read an example of one. Give us that definition one more time, Tim. Yeah, an imprecatory prayer essentially is just a prayer that invokes judgment or calamity or curses upon one's enemy, essentially.

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So that's what it is. So what is the purpose of a prayer like that?

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I'm sure there's probably a lot of people that are confused when they come across these kinds of passages to think that the

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God they've read about in the New Testament is the same God who's saying, hey, pray prayers like this.

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If you understand what the Psalms are, these are songs that they're singing.

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The Israelites are singing in worship to God. So the one that you read, it almost sounds like a diss track in some ways.

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And they're supposed to be singing that to the Lord. So what is the purpose of praying prayers like that?

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And even singing them in a corporate gathering together? Well, maybe it's helpful to point out that this isn't just an

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Old Testament phenomenon. So as you're thinking about what is the purpose behind these things, there's obviously different kinds of passages.

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Most notably, you're going to find psalms like that in the Old Testament. And that's where most people are familiar with this concept.

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So in Precatory Prayers or in Precatory Psalms, most people are familiar with it at that level. So you have those kind of passages.

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And then you have in the New Testament, you have Jesus who basically is saying, love your enemies.

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So you have all the love your enemy passages. Do good to those who persecute you in spite of who use you.

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If your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing, he will cause a fire upon his head. So you have those kind of passages.

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You have Jesus saying, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. So you have the love your enemies passages.

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And then you seem to have these praying judgment upon your enemies kind of passages. And then you're trying to figure out some way to harmonize them.

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And your question is, why are they there? But then before I give an answer to that, you might want to think about just how often these kind of things actually show up.

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So for instance, like in Matthew 23, 13, Jesus says, I mean, that's a prayer that's pronouncing judgment on the scribes and the

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Pharisees with some pretty harsh language. And so Jesus is known for that. Of Judas, Jesus essentially says, woe to that man.

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It would be better that he had never been born. So Jesus commonly pronounces woe upon different false teachers or those who are seeking to betray him in that way.

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First Corinthians 16, 12. If any man doesn't love the Lord Jesus, let him be anathema.

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Essentially, that's Paul, so let him be accursed. Galatians, you might think about Galatians.

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If we or an angel from heaven preached any other gospel to you than what you've heard preached, let him be accursed essentially.

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Paul talks about in Galatians 5 at the end that he wishes that those who the

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Judaizers would essentially be emasculated for troubling them. 2

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Timothy 4, 14. Paul talks about Alexander the coppersmith. He says, And then

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I'm sure that you're familiar with Revelation where the saints in Revelation are saying,

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Essentially, they're murderers, the one who beheaded them.

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Part of this is when you think about this category of imprecatory prayers, there's different realities that a person has to hold in their head all at once.

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There's different lines of thought in the Christian life. If you press one line of thought in one direction too far, you're going to get some problems.

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If you press it another way, you're going to get other problems. The idea, though, is that Christians should love justice.

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There's this concept of justice needs to be done, and Christians are to love justice.

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Part of the purpose of the imprecatory prayers is not just about vengeance in the raw, if that makes sense.

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It's not just about personal vindictiveness that a person is praying.

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It's not just like, someone did me wrong, therefore I'm mad at them.

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I want them to be punished because I personally am sinfully angry at them and can't seem to get over it.

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It's not about that. What it's about is it's about God's purposes being done in the world. One of the things that we read, and it may have been easy to pass over when we were reading it in Psalm 109, but essentially it said,

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Psalm 109 .21, But you, O God my Lord, deal on my behalf.

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Now notice what he says. He says, Deal on my behalf for your name's sake, because your steadfast love is good.

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Deliver me. David essentially is the king, and he's

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God's representative, and when his enemies are triumphing over him and accusing him, they're messing with God's plan in a very significant way there.

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So when David is saying, Lord, deal with your accusers for your name's sake, he's not saying deal with my accusers for my name's sake.

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He's saying deal with my accusers for your name's sake, meaning you had purposes in setting me up as king, and if my enemies triumph over me, then that's going to call into question your promises towards me and your protection of your people and your plan for your people.

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And so a lot of these imprecatory prayers are not meant to be just personal acts of vindictiveness. What they are is they're about God's priorities and God's kingdom come and his will be done.

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And so when Paul is looking at the Galatians being troubled by the Judaizers, and he's saying

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I wish they were emasculated, he's not saying I'm just so personally mad at them for them being mean to me.

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He's looking at them and he's saying, Lord, deal with them for your name's sake, because I love the people they're harming, and I care about them, and I want them to be protected from this, and I want them to believe the true gospel and to believe what's right.

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So the purpose of these are about justice being done, about God being vindicated, about his character being vindicated, and about his purposes advancing in the world, if that makes sense.

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Yeah, so it's not like a, hey,

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I'm praying this to try and convince God to get back at this person for me, right?

17:17

Right. It's kind of like, as you were explaining that, I was thinking of this song, maybe you've heard it before,

17:24

Tim, by Outkast. I think it's called Roses, and it's a very vulgar song.

17:33

I won't admit it then, no. I can't remember if I listened to some rap back in the day playing basketball, but I don't know.

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Well, and this song, if I remember right, the premise of the song is basically he's singing about a girl who's just kind of crazy and self -absorbed and only cares about herself and thinks she's all that.

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And part of the song, he basically has this whole section where he describes a very detailed,

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I hope she's driving on her way to the club and putting on her makeup on, looking in the mirror, and then she swerves off into a ditch and crashes.

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And he says it all in this really fast, it's not to the beat of the song, it's not to any rhythm that he's done.

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It's really not even to a rhythm. He's just saying it all as fast as he can, trying to cram in as many details and many bad things that happen to her as possible, and that's supposed to be what makes it funny.

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So he's saying this obviously terrible thing about someone that he's wanting to happen to them.

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And the reason it's terrible is because he's wanting to be vindicated, basically.

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And so you're saying, I guess you could say in a sense he is praying an imprecatory prayer there, but he's praying it selfishly for his own gain.

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And what you're saying is, hey, no, we're supposed to do the opposite of what Outkast did in their song, right? That we need to, you know, like when they're praying these prayers, they're praying it as like a, you know, vindicate yourself,

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Lord. And that's the main, you know, if you get anything from this, the main distinction that is to be made is that when people think about imprecatory prayers, the only context they have for thinking about this kind of thing is some kind of self -centered, selfish, you know, just petty vengeance kind of thing.

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So they picture like a petty tyrant who basically just, you know, someone hurt their feelings or did something mean to him.

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And then, you know, as you're reading through David's list of things, like you're tempted to view it in that way as if he's just some petty tyrant, right?

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And everyone's being mean to him and, you know, abusing him. And then he's just praying that, you know, that God do these extreme, exorbitant things to them in response.

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And like that's just not the way to read what's actually happening. So, you know, as you're reading through the

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Bible, one of the things to realize is that God wants us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us and despitefully use us.

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And so there's like a, there's a personal victim, like personal like vendetta kind of category that I think most people, that's the only experience they have in life is some sort of personal vendetta kind of category.

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And then, you know, when like moving a little bit beyond that, then we also seem to have a category for like a very fierce kind of protectiveness towards our loved ones and towards our family members too, right?

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Like meaning, so if someone does something wrong to like one of my kids, then

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I'm justified in being kind of an out of control maniac and taking vengeance in my own hand and doing whatever

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I need to do in order to fix that. And so there's like a personal vendetta, and then there's like a vendetta on behalf of another person kind of thing that people understand.

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But then there is a very real God -centered element to this that I think most people are unfamiliar with, okay?

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So God has priorities in the world, and like God's the one who, like if you think about it through the lens of offense, as a

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Christian, as you grow in the Christian life, like God's really the only one who's able to take like completely justified personal offense that is righteous for him to have, okay?

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Right, yeah, because he's perfect, he hasn't wronged anyone. Right, yeah, so like when we think about this, in some sense this is like a discussion about anger, okay?

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So there's different categories of anger in the Bible. You have sinful anger in the Bible, and you have righteous anger in the

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Bible. And if you can get your mind around these two categories of sinful anger and righteous anger, then it puts you in a good position to understand the difference between like imprecatory prayers done right and imprecatory prayers done wrong, okay?

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So like try to think through these categories. So like the difference between sinful anger and righteous anger is all about like, like if you want to think about what anger is in a simple way, anger is

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I want what I want when I want it, that's what anger is. But then you have to ask yourself like what's the difference between these two things?

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And sinful anger is all about my kingdom come, my will be done on earth as it, or you know, on heaven as I want it to be done on earth, whereas righteous anger is about God's kingdom come,

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God's will be done, you know, on earth as it is in heaven. So like it's just kind of the reverse of that.

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So most of us, we only have this category for sinful, like sinful, self -centered, petty, selfish anger, right?

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You did something I don't like. I want you to be punished because, you know, basically don't nobody do me like that, right?

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Yeah. That's sinful anger, right? That's sinful anger. But then like the difference between sinful anger and righteous anger is righteous anger is all about God's priorities.

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Righteous anger is all about God, like the offenses that God should be dishonored and that I love

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God so much and like my love for him pales in comparison to my love for any human being.

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And so in that way, like I should love other people as I love myself, right? But I should love

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God way more than I love anyone else, okay? Now, if you have like a person who has set themselves in opposition towards God's plans and is hostile to everything that God is carrying out, there should be a holy kind of hatred for that person that can coexist, right?

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Like so they can coexist alongside a genuine compassion for them, but based on what they're doing, what they're doing fundamentally is wrong.

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It needs to be stopped. And like God needs to be honored. It's just like you would have a holy anger towards someone who is abusing your wife, right?

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So like we have a category for like that. Like if someone is doing something wrong to your wife, someone is doing something wrong to one of your kids, we know how to respond in a jealous way, but like you magnify that by a million.

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That's how you should respond when someone is dishonoring the Lord. And so you have to have some sort of like category for righteous anger in this discussion in that I want

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God's priorities to be done. I mean, you know, you should think about like as you're looking at all these false prophets and all these false teachers that are out there that are deceiving people, you know, and basically binding on them heavy burdens.

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And, you know, imagine yourself, you know, in the time of the Reformation with Martin Luther nailing his 95, you know, thesis on the, you know, the

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Wittenberg Chapel and all that. Like there's a, you have a system that's set up where these individuals are fleecing these people and telling them in order to get favor with God, you have to buy it through indulgences.

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Like there should be this like, like a absolute hatred for that kind of act.

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And, you know, it's very appropriate in that kind of context to be praying, God, like vindicate your name, protect your people.

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And, you know, stop your enemies. Okay. And so at that point, it's like, like Peter, Peter and axe.

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Who was it that sold their house? And then a nice fire. Yeah.

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Nice. It's a fire. He, you know, he says, Mayor silver perish with you. Or no,

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I'm sorry. That's not, that's not a nice fire. That's Simon, the magician.

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He, he thinks he can, he thinks he can purchase the gift that they're, that they're, you know,

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I think they're healing people. And he wants, he wants to receive that gift as well. And he asks them how much money it would cost.

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And Peter's response is, you know, Mayor silver Paris with you because you thought you could purchase the gift of God with, with, with wealth or whatever, something like that.

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So, so it's very, you know, like he's, he's adamant, you know,

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Peter's very clearly adamantly defending the way to salvation, which is not, it has nothing to do with, you know, money, obviously.

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So that's just an example of what you're talking about. Right. Yeah. So I think if you get your mind around these categories of sinful anger versus righteous anger, it puts you in a right position to understand, like, what is the purpose of these imprecatory prayers and why are people praying them?

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And so there's a way to pray it in a very vindictive and self -centered way. And then there's a way to pray these kinds of things in a way that's very focused on God's priorities.

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It's not, it's not about vengeance, like personal vengeance. It's about God's priorities, God's will being done in the world.

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And you wanting God to be honored and glorified and vindicated more than you want anything else.

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And that priority supersedes everything else in that way. Right. So in light of that, you know, if the point is to say an imprecatory prayer is not something that's supposed to be vindictive, you know, for my sake, at least, you know,

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I was thinking of, I was thinking, I'm pretty sure there's some, there's various passages throughout the

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Bible that are basically, you know, they're either imprecatory prayers or there's, you know, there's some form of people calling out, wishing for justice and wishing for God to avenge them.

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Right. And so, so I just, I just looked it up real quick because I couldn't remember any, any specific passages off the top of my head.

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And, you know, I've found Revelation chapter six, verse 10 that says, let's see.

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And they cried out with a loud voice saying, how long, oh Lord, holy and true.

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Will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?

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So you have that kind of example where they're very clearly calling for God to, you know, judge them, to kill them, but for, to avenge their blood.

28:38

Right. So, so how does that fit in with the, with what you were saying about imprecatory prayers being like not, you know, not something that's vindictive on your, for your, for your sake?

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Yeah, I think when you're thinking about the idea of an imprecatory prayer, I mean, like fundamentally there's this

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God centered element to it, but then there is the reality that judgment and vengeance is committed to God.

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And so what, like we are ultimately longing for the day when vengeance ultimately will be carried out.

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Okay. So, so Christians are not like categorically against the idea of vengeance, like in, you know, in an eschatological sense.

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Like we, like we know that there's going to be an eschatological judgment and we live, we live life in the, like with the knowledge of the reality that like we're coming to a day where, you know, all the people who like persecuted us and despitefully used us, like there's, there's a day coming where their mouths are going to be stopped.

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And so we have different postures towards them. So you have a posture where you want them to turn to Christ.

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That's a very clear kind of posture that you're going to have towards other people. Meaning like if you're a person who's been forgiven much and you see that God's forgiven you like a debt that you can never pay and like, there's nothing you can do to earn it.

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And that you once were just like these people who are spitting, like you were the same person that, you know, is being like, that is persecuting you, right?

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You were them. So that was you. So there's a sense in which like grace and humility and desire for mercy wants them to come to repentance.

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And so you have a certain posture that like, and I think that should be the primary posture that you have towards people in this life in particular is a posture that says,

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I want you to come to penance. That's what I want. Okay. That's what I want personally for you.

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But then there is a, there is a eschatological component to this. That's a bit different than all that.

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Okay. So meaning like, we know that all of God's enemies are not going to repent.

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Okay. Right. Like, so they're not all going to come to the Lord. There is. So part of this is like a hell discussion.

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Okay. So we know that hell exists. We know that hell is real. And we know that like, there, you know, any number of people, you see this in running a podcast or anything like that, or having any kind of public ministry out there being involved in church.

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You see that there's many people who slander you and who say evil things about you and say wicked things about you.

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And part of the, you know, the comfort that a Christian can have is you can have comfort in knowledge that, you know, at the last day, you're going to be vindicated to have been in the right.

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Okay. So you're not just like, it's not just like, it's not just that justice is like completely and totally irrelevant to you whatsoever.

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Right. So it's not that you just want like out of control mercy with no justice. What you want, if you have a, you have, you know, one foot in one direction, one foot in another direction.

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And so in the eschatological sense, like there will be a day coming where everything will be set right.

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And you as a Christian will be shown to have been in the right for following God. And so there will be a vindication of you in that sense, like in the last day where it will be shown that what, you know, everything that you suffered unjustly will be, will be put on full display in that way.

32:23

And so we like, so part of our posture is it's not just, so what I'm trying to say is it's not just this, like I want right now, you know, anytime anyone is mean to me,

32:34

I have a personal vindictive kind of posture towards them that says you do something mean to me.

32:39

I want you to go to hell. Right. That's not, that's not the kind of posture we should have, but like in the final analysis, we do know, and we are waiting for the day when all of that will be proven.

32:52

Like we're, we're all that will be sorted out. Right. Where justice will be done, where God will be vindicated.

32:59

Not only will God be vindicated, but we will be shown in the last analysis to have been in the right.

33:05

Okay. So it's not just like, I want to suffer unjustly. So signing up for the

33:11

Christian life is not just me signing up to basically be persecuted my whole entire life and suffer for it without a word and nothing ever come of it.

33:22

Right. So like we are long, so you have to have some concept of like justice in the final analysis being done.

33:30

And that's going to involve you being shown to be in the right. And those who, you know, cut your head off being showed to be in the wrong that you can at the same time long for them to be a

33:43

Saul. Right. You get what I'm saying? Like you can long for your persecutors to be a

33:48

Saul, but then you can also long for, if they're not a Saul for justice to be shown in the end for God to be vindicated and for everything to be wrapped up.

33:58

Does that make sense? Yeah. So if I understand you correctly, based off that passage in revelation, essentially what's being stated there is a desire to see what

34:13

God has already promised. He's going to do carry it out. That's right. Right. So he promised that, you know, obviously we believe that hell is a real place, that anyone outside of Christ will be damned to hell for all eternity.

34:31

And God has promised that he will send everyone there who is outside of Christ, who has not put their faith and trust in him and repented of their sins.

34:41

And so in revelation, what they're doing is they're just crying out for God to fulfill that promise.

34:47

Fulfill his promises and to, you know, have justice be done in the final analysis. And so what we're not to do is we're not to take vengeance in our own hand in this life and have a vindictive kind of posture.

34:58

So that's what I'm trying to talk about. We're not supposed to have some sort of vindictive posture where I'm going to make justice happen here and now.

35:06

What you do is you give that over to God. And so you have a concern. I want justice to be done. OK. Sure.

35:12

I want justice to be done. But I'm giving that over to God. And now one of the means that God uses in this life to carry that out is the government who bears the sword.

35:21

So the government is God's deacon of vengeance in this life. But then the government is not going to get it all cleaned up in this life.

35:28

You're waiting for an eschatological time where that's going to all be done. And so it's carried out perfectly. Yeah. And that's what we want.

35:34

Like we want to we want justice to be done. So we want a posture that says we want justice to be done. But then we also want to show mercy to our enemies, too.

35:43

And we want our mercy. I want our enemies to have the same mercy that we've received.

35:48

OK. But we also know that God has a plan not to save everyone. OK. And so you have to make your peace with the reality that judgment is coming.

35:58

And that's a good thing. And that God will be glorified in that. And everything will be shown to be in the right there.

36:06

OK. So are you saying, you know, and with the title question, should

36:12

Christians ever pray in purgatory prayers? What is your answer to that? I think. Yeah. I mean, obviously, the psalmist does and Jesus does and Paul does.

36:20

And so I think whatever you say, you have to start out with Jesus wasn't contradicting himself.

36:26

OK. And he says to love it, love our enemies and do good to those who persecute. I went, you know,

36:31

Paul was talking about doing good to those who like your enemy, hunger is feeding me, thirst, give him drink and all that.

36:37

And so Jesus and Paul are not contradicting what Jesus was saying. And there.

36:44

So the purgatory Psalms exist. You know, we have examples in the New Testament of this kind of thing. So I think you start with the basic assumption that there must be something in there that's right.

36:54

OK. And then it's your job to try to figure out, well, how do I harmonize the examples you see in the

36:59

Old Testament and New Testament with both Jesus and Paul's teaching on doing good to those who persecute you and despitefully use you, all the kind of passages that come from that.

37:10

So I think, yes, you need some place for imprecatory prayers. And I mean, it's not really that conceptually hard to imagine how this can happen.

37:19

So anytime this discussion comes up, I just ask people to think of Hitler. OK. Just think of Hitler. Yeah. What would you be praying if you're in the allied army towards Hitler?

37:31

OK. Now, like the super spiritual kind of person is just going to say, oh, yeah, I pray that God will save Hitler. Right. Well, and that's fine.

37:38

That's fair enough. And I think that's a perfectly fine thing to say. Pray, save Hitler. Cause him to repent.

37:44

But, you know, he's killed a lot of people. OK. Yeah. And like the issue is that there's more people involved in this equation than just Hitler.

37:52

OK. And this is what people don't understand about imprecatory prayers. There's more people involved than just a one on one personal dispute between one person and another.

38:03

OK. So there's a lot of other people. So like, what is the loving thing to be praying for all of Hitler's victims? That's what you have to ask.

38:09

OK. And so the loving thing that be praying for Hitler's victim is that victims is

38:14

Lord, like stop Hitler. Right. Right. Like by any means.

38:20

Right. And it may look like everything that David prayed in Psalm 109. So. But I mean, it may be that level of, you know, may he be carpet bombed.

38:31

You know, maybe I don't remember you reading Psalm 109.

38:37

Yeah. Maybe he'd be waterboarded and carpet bombed. And, you know, for your name's sake. Oh, Lord.

38:45

And drawn in quarters and, you know, be left unrecognizable with nothing to bear, you know, at the end.

38:53

But no, I mean, so, you know, I think you have to act like there's more people involved in these kind of equations than just one.

38:59

And that's where, like, if you try to just turn it into like just me versus one person kind of scenario, that's where, like, things can get a little bit like there's just more to it than that.

39:11

OK. Now, I'm not saying that, you know, if Hitler was the one who sent me to the gas chamber, you know,

39:18

I would be praying with the, you know, Saints of Revelation at that point. How long ago, Lord? Holy and true. Until you avenge our blood.

39:25

You know. Right. But so there's a place for like, hey, you need to deal with that. That was wrong. That was unjust.

39:31

And asking the Lord to fix it all and longing for justice to be done. So it's not just suffering, you know, just irrational kind of suffering with no desire for justice at all.

39:45

But like, you know, when you're thinking about these kind of equations, you do have to think there's more people in this than just Hitler.

39:51

You know, you got all the Jewish people you're praying for. You have all your soldiers you're praying for.

39:57

You know, you're not praying like if you just, you know, pray like in some very simplistic kind of way, you know,

40:04

Lord, give Hitler a good night's sleep and help him not to get, you know, cold and, you know, help him to feel well rested and to be sharp thinker and, you know, help his battle plans to go smoothly.

40:17

Like, I mean, you could do that. But then like the thing is like whatever's happened there is profoundly immoral.

40:23

Okay. And that's not that's not the kind of thing that Jesus is talking about. Okay. So what you're not praying is you're not like.

40:31

So the Lord's Prayer is instructive at this point. You have to think about how Lord's Prayer actually works. The Lord's Prayer is fundamentally like your kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

40:41

Okay. And so what you're not praying in those moments when like towards an evil person like you're praying that they be found like like you're playing the only kind of blessings you're praying for them is the kind of blessings that are going to be found in conjunction with this your kingdom come your will be done prayer.

41:03

Does that make sense? Yeah. So you're not praying for them blessings that are going to be found in opposition to the

41:09

Lord's Prayer. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not going to be praying the let

41:16

Hitler's battle plans go, you know, smoothly. Right.

41:21

Because like he's doing awful things. He's doing. Yeah. So that's that's the opposite of, you know, your kingdom come your will be done yet on earth as it is.

41:30

Right. So that what he's doing dishonors God's will. Okay. And a lot of people don't understand like this as it relates to prayer in general.

41:37

We can be very sentimental about prayer. I can very sappy about prayer. And so anytime anyone that like if you have a church member and they have a loved one who is going through a rough time, everyone just asked you to pray that everything is going to be fixed for them.

41:50

Okay, and it's just like but wait a minute. Like what like they're a drug addict. Okay, I'm not praying that they're just going to find a job with apart from repentance or something like that or right.

42:01

I'm not going to just pray that they get cleaned up apart from repentance apart from like they like like the issue is like you like you can just pray like like disconnected like blessings on a person.

42:14

But at the end of the day, I mean what that ends up sounding like is, you know, my my son is sleeping around, you know, pray that he doesn't get a venereal disease with all the prostitutes.

42:23

He's going to visit or something like that. It's like well, no, that's like a completely inappropriate prayer a blessing right to be praying on them.

42:31

So like what you need to like the issue is you're not like you should never be praying Lord help this sinner like have a better time at sinning in an easier time at sinning.

42:44

Okay, like that's not where you're praying like you're not like you're not doing that. So now there's a the opposite of that is just kind of a prayer for justice unmitigated.

42:57

Okay, right like particularly because it's motivated by sinful anger on your part that has taken it all personally.

43:05

Okay. Okay, like in that way, it's just like, you know, you walk you're walking down the street and someone, you know, bumps you on the shoulder and then you turn around you say, you know,

43:16

Lord may his house be childless forever and I'll help him to a completely measured response not an overreaction in any way.

43:26

Break his you know, break his teeth out of his mouth and you know, cause him to you know, slowly spit out the you know, spit out the fragments of his teeth into his food, you know, like bro.

43:39

I just bumped into you man. I'm sorry. So like the thing is like there's different like there's a like that would be just the personal vindictive

43:49

Vendetta kind of prayer and then on the other end, it's just like blessings with no check on them, right?

43:56

Like no, I mean, it's just blessings with no check. It's like man just you know, help Hitler get a good night's sleep and you know, fell refreshed and you know, it's just like, all right, this is not like neither one of the like both of those prayers are equally wrong in different directions.

44:12

Okay. Uh -huh. Yeah. So what should be like the thing that holds it all together is is the

44:17

Lord's prayer, right? Your kingdom come your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. And in that way, you may say something like like Lord, you know, save Hitler.

44:28

All right, cause justice to be done. And if you don't want to save him stop him.

44:35

Okay, save him or stop him. Stop him through saving him and bringing him to trial.

44:41

Yeah, right. Like stop him that way through like him surrendering and repenting of what he's done and maybe he can perhaps find mercy before he dies and be saved, you know, or you know, like Lord just if if he if it is not your will to save him stop him, right?

44:59

And so then you're praying that big list of things that David is praying at that point and you may get pretty creative with it at that point, right?

45:06

Yeah. Well, I was going to ask like, I mean, are we supposed to be that specific or, you know, are we supposed to go the revelation route?

45:14

That's kind of more just general, you know, avenge our blood. I think so the specificity is meant to teach certain things.

45:24

And so it's like a teaching moment there. So the point the point of the specificity is not simply just to get it all out of your system or something.

45:36

All right. It's not a gift for your spirit kind of thing. No, it's not. It's not.

45:41

That's not the point. Like the point is just like it's not the outcast. You know, I hope she's on her way to the club putting on her makeup.

45:53

Just get it all out of your system. Go as descriptive as you know. I mean, it's teaching theology is teaching about the things that matter most in life, you know, and a lot of it is, you know, particularly in the context of the

46:03

Psalms. It's just playing off of the Abrahamic blessing, essentially. So, you know, I'll bless those who bless you.

46:08

And those who dishonor you, I will curse. Right. And so a lot of this is just playing off that kind of language.

46:14

And it's just teaching about the things that matter most in life. And it's teaching about how justice works, like in the defined divine economy, as far as those things go.

46:24

And, you know, God will set everything right. He often does it in this life and he will do it in the next. Okay.

46:30

And so, you know, part of this is just longing for God's purposes to be realized. His kingdom come as will be done.

46:36

You know, longing for him to be vindicated. You know, longing for his plans to go out.

46:42

You know, love for neighbors. Right. Love for neighbors. Love for loved ones.

46:47

And people who are being deceived, you know, and abused by people who are throwing them in gas chambers and things like that.

46:56

And then there is there is also like a very real personal element of like, like,

47:03

I think you can you can look like it is heavy to have individuals who slander you and misrepresent you and say evil things about you.

47:15

And, you know, all those things that the Bible says, like, bless those who do right. Those who persecute you and despitefully use you, you know, don't be deceived.

47:23

Right. I didn't come to bring peace, but they bring a sword. A man's enemies will be those of his own household.

47:28

Those things are hard. You know, when God raises evil against you from your own house and you have loved ones, you have family members who set themselves in opposition towards you and slander you and gossip about you and, you know, just set themselves out like just absolute kind of hatred for you that is intent upon destroying you.

47:47

But there is some comfort in the knowledge that one day you will be shown to be in the right.

47:55

That your faith in God and your faith in his word was not misplaced and that you weren't a fool.

48:01

And that, you know, people have this like, like, like that's hard.

48:06

Like all that. And what I'm trying to say is all that stuff is hard and it's hard to bear in this life.

48:11

And if you just thought that, you know, it just like that's just part of it and you're just going to have to deal with it and nothing's ever happened from it, then that could be kind of a profoundly discouraging thought to think that I signed up for the

48:27

Christian life and, you know, it was just bad news in this life and bad news in the next. Right? Right.

48:34

Yeah. Now, I mean, that's why, yeah, that's why Paul says, you know, if we're wrong about all this, then we're, we're to be pitied.

48:41

Yeah. We're of all men must be pity. Because like, there's no like, man, so we got, we signed up for bad news here and bad news later.

48:48

Right. But that's not the way it works. Like there is some comfort in knowing that all those times that individuals misrepresented you and spoke falsely against you and slandered you and, you know, did evil, vindictive, hateful things against you and tried to get you to lose your job and tried to get you to, like tried to destroy your church and try to, you know, these kinds of things.

49:09

I mean, those will be set right one day. And there is some comfort knowledge that that'll happen.

49:15

Now, if in this life, if in this life, one of those people could come to repentance and you could reconcile it now, you should desire that.

49:26

Right. You should desire that. And so that's what this is what Jesus is saying, right?

49:31

You should, you should realize that you've sinned against Jesus a debt you can never pay in a million years.

49:38

Right. And you should want your brother to be forgiven and ready to forgive him, too.

49:44

But if he hardens his heart and that's going to be him all the way down, all the way to the end of this life and all the next, justice will be done.

49:51

Right. And you will not you will be shown to have been right. And that's a comforting thought, too. Right.

49:58

Yeah. That reminds me of, you know, talking about, hey, we should we should want people to be reconciled because we are like them.

50:06

I mean, that just I guess maybe it's Titus that says something similar to that, you know, basically, for we were once like them hating and and being hated.

50:17

Right. Right. Where Paul is saying there's nothing there's no difference in between the saved person and the not saved person in terms of what they have done.

50:32

Right. Sure. The difference comes in what God has done to the believer, regenerated them to new life, given them faith, brought them to repentance.

50:43

Filled them with the Holy Spirit. And so all of that work is what makes us able to to, you know, do anything that we do in faith, trying to worship and honor

50:55

God. And there's nothing that we brought to the table that made us better than anyone else.

51:02

And so. So from that aspect, that makes it very easy to say that makes it very easy to say, well, hey,

51:10

I can't. I can't just totally, you know, completely condemn a person and not desire to see them saved at all, because I was literally the exact same thing.

51:21

And, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of people who who were who were doing the exact same things

51:27

I was doing before I was a Christian, you know, and they're still doing them now without having repented.

51:33

And and I don't I don't have any sort of like, well, I'm better than them because blah, blah, blah, whatever.

51:40

Right. Right. And and so I think that is an important point to make. I do have one more question before before we wrap things up.

51:48

And that, you know, one thing that I've been thinking about as we've been talking through all this as we see, you know,

51:54

I think it's clear at this point that you see biblical examples of imprecatory prayers all throughout the

52:02

Bible, throughout the Old Testament, throughout the New Testament. You know, the prophets, they do it.

52:08

The the psalmists do it. Jesus does it. The apostles do it.

52:15

You know, you see it everywhere. If you're if you're paying attention, you see it. You see it everywhere in the

52:20

Bible. One argument that I think people might bring up,

52:28

I don't know how I don't know how popular this argument is. I don't know if it is even a popular argument.

52:35

But I was thinking about this as we were talking about, you know, where do we see imprecatory imprecatory prayers throughout

52:42

Scripture? Someone might come along and say, OK, look,

52:48

I get it. The prophets did it. The psalmists did it. The apostles did it.

52:53

Jesus did it. But here's the thing. So like the prophets are speaking for God, right?

53:03

You know, the psalmists, I mean, they're writing they're writing the songs. They're inspired by the

53:08

Holy Spirit. Jesus is, you know, God, obviously. So, you know, that seems like,

53:15

OK, yeah, that makes sense. He's God. He's allowed to do that. The apostles are the are the ones who were first given the

53:21

Holy Spirit. They were the ones who are directly under Jesus. And they were inspired by the

53:26

Holy Spirit in their writings. Or, you know, at least some of them were.

53:33

And and even the martyrs who were who were dead already. In Revelation, the martyrs in Revelation, they're dead.

53:42

They were killed for the name of Christ. They're calling out for their blood to be avenged. All of this is scripture that we're reading, right?

53:49

So so what when we're looking at those things would lead us to say,

53:55

OK, this is something that we need to carry on. You know, it could.

54:00

Well, how would you respond to someone who says like, look, that's people who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, either that or, you know,

54:08

Jesus is God, obviously. So so they're allowed to do it. They're allowed to pray things like that.

54:16

But then we're not because, you know, we're not we're not speaking for God in any kind of way.

54:23

You know, they're just they're just they're praying. Those prayers are allowed to do that.

54:29

We're not. What is your response to that? I mean, the Saints in Revelation is the easiest place to go with that.

54:35

Like trying to answer that kind of question. I mean, depending on your interpretive scheme for the Book of Revelation, you have different ways of expressing like how that makes sense.

54:46

OK, so like if you have a futurist scheme of the Book of Revelation, then that those things are going to be you.

54:52

OK, right. OK, so in that scheme. Right.

54:59

Then they're going to be you. Now, if you have some like an idealist interpretation of the Book of Revelation, then like these are principles that.

55:06

So this is Revelation is written to the church. Right. Tell the church, you know, and that like those saints represent the church.

55:13

So if they represent the church and that should be representing you. So in that way, I think there's no like in there's, you know,

55:20

I'm not going to go through all the interpretive schemes of Revelation. But you don't want to you don't want to break that down.

55:26

Fifty minutes. You have a preterist. You have a preterist interpretation of that. Then those were, you know, the saints at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.

55:35

OK, saying the same thing. So, you know, so, you know, before the destruction of Jerusalem and all that.

55:41

So, you know, the point that was just to say, depending like depending on like that's the easiest place to go to answer that.

55:47

Sure. Rejection. I think the hardest one would be I think if you're looking for like the hardest, you know, the the most difficult way to harmonize it may be

56:00

Romans 12 14. OK, so that would be the most. Seemingly obvious barrier to the kind of discussion we're having.

56:09

So, you know, Romans 12 14 says bless those who persecute you and do not curse them. So bless those who persecute you.

56:17

Bless and do not curse them. Rejoice to those who rejoice. Reap with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another.

56:22

Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Verse 17. Repay no one evil for evil, but get thought to do what is honorable on the side of all.

56:31

If it's possible, as much as it depends on you, live peacefully with all people. And then, beloved, never avenge yourself, but leave it to the wrath of God for his written vengeance is mine.

56:41

I will repay, says the Lord. To the contrary, if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink.

56:47

For by so doing you'll reap burning coals upon his head. Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

56:53

So I think in that passage you have the first statement, bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse.

56:58

You could read that in such a way as to say never pray for justice, right? And that's essentially what you'd have to be doing if you're praying, like that the imprecatory prayers are, if you're saying imprecatory prayers are off limits, you're basically reading that in a very specific way to say that prayers for justice are inappropriate and wrong.

57:19

But really what you need to do is just read that in the context of what it's saying. And there's so much in there, like to say, hey, you don't repay evil for evil.

57:27

Right? You don't repay evil for evil. Don't avenge yourself. So we're talking about like don't be your own personal avenger, right?

57:36

Leave it to God and government's going to take care of that. And to the contrary, if your enemy hungers, feed him.

57:42

If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing you're going to reap holes of fire on his head. Don't be overcome by evil, overcome with evil by good.

57:48

So as far as it depends on you, you shouldn't be like personally seeking their active harm in that way.

57:58

So you have a personal offense towards you, like in that kind of context, personal offense towards me.

58:04

Like I'm not going to be like, like you, you elbowed me on the street. You know, I'm not going to be praying a thousand curses upon your head.

58:11

You know, I'm just going to try to do good to you. Okay. Again, I'm gonna try to overcome evil with good in that way.

58:18

Now that doesn't mean that I, you know, ultimately in the final analysis, we're not praying for judgment.

58:23

That doesn't mean that like, if like you're torturing me for months and months and months,

58:28

I can't pray that God would stop you, you know? Okay. But, you know, as my own personal posture towards you,

58:34

I'm going to try to seek to do good to you and try to win you over that way. And if my efforts are unsuccessful, I am going to pray

58:40

God, like, you know, solve this. Okay. Fix it. You know, so. May their womb be barren and their houses burnt down and, you know, their flocks and cattle raided and their crops fail.

58:58

Yep. All that. Yeah. All of that. Okay. All right. Well, that makes sense. I think that's a good place for us to stop.

59:07

And hopefully for you guys, this has been a challenging conversation to hear about imprecatory prayers.

59:15

Whether you're the person who's like me a few years ago who didn't even know what an imprecatory prayer was before this conversation, or you're someone who knows what they were and you didn't really know what we should do, how we should understand these various passages throughout scripture, or even the person who already did know what to do with these.

59:36

Hopefully this has been a conversation that encourages you. Number one, like we say so often to, you know, not apologize for what the

59:45

Bible says. Everything that the Bible says is, you know, it's inspired by God and we don't need to apologize for those things.

59:52

But then number two, it does give us, it does give us a little more insight into how

59:58

God wants us to pray. And so, you know, obviously we don't need to neglect prayers for people to come to repentance or, you know, prayers, you know, for loved ones that, you know, they be healed if that's

01:00:14

God's will or whatever else or sanctified or, you know, have joy in the midst of trials.

01:00:20

But then we also need to be praying, hey, you know, God, please bring about justice.

01:00:25

We should be a people who long for justice and to see God's will done, just like Jesus prayed in the

01:00:32

Lord's Prayer to him, like you mentioned. So hopefully this has been an encouraging conversation. It's a lot of fun to be able to have these and talk about these and, and encourage you guys through this.

01:00:44

And so we love being able to do this and getting to interact with you all the time. And so it's something that we really enjoy doing.

01:00:51

And obviously we enjoy talking about theology as well. And we're glad that there's so many of you out there who like to talk about these things and who like to hear about these things and ask us questions and whatnot.

01:01:02

And we're glad that, you know, it, it seems like God is using, using the podcast in that way to encourage a lot of you guys.

01:01:12

So we love hearing about how you will have been encouraged by the things we're talking about. And until we have the next episode, we'll see you then.

01:01:21

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion. We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media.

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Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback, and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at BibleBashedPodcast at gmail .com

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and consider supporting us through Patreon. If you would like to be Bible Bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free biblical counseling, which you can take advantage of by emailing us.

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Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.