Should A Husband Help His Lazy Wife Do The Dishes?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, should a husband help his lazy wife do the dishes?

Now, I know right off the bat that this is going to be one of those questions that I'm sure there's probably a handful of people that are just ripping their hair out when they hear a question like that asked, and really

I'm not so sure that it should be as offensive as some people might make it out to be, because I think in our society, we're all used to interacting with lazy people in one way or another, whether it's our job or maybe friends that we have or family members, and yet it kind of seems like for whatever reason, when it comes to talking about wives, that's totally off -limits.

You can never really say something like that. Husbands, I think it's like... It's easy.

It rolls off the tongue to talk about lazy husbands. I mean, every sitcom ever is predicated on a lazy husband, the idiot husband who can't ever get anything right, but then when it comes to women, you're just simply not allowed to say these things, and not only are you not allowed to say these things, the question is kind of presupposing something that really our society is rebelling against, right?

And that idea is that women should even be the ones doing the dishes in the first place.

Who's to say it shouldn't be the man taking care of the dishes in the house?

I mean, women got to work too, right? So Tim, before we get to that title question, talking about what should a husband do if his wife isn't taking care of the dishes,

I wanted to just start by asking, why are we coming to the conclusion, why are we assuming that women are even supposed to be the one to do the dishes in the first place?

Where are we getting that from? Yeah, I mean, you might as well say that women should be the one making the sandwiches.

You hateful bigot. No, it's essentially, yeah, it is a question that, by and large, you're not really allowed to ask, or you're not really allowed to ask the question, should a husband help his lazy wife do the dishes?

I mean, the obviously implied answer is, yes, of course he should do it. Not only should he do it, should he excel at it, right?

But then even more than that, what is offensive is the idea that there are husband and wife roles, and that those roles might include anything that might be considered domestic.

So that's kind of the problem. So one of the things that's happened is that, as a result of feminism, there's a lot of people who basically think that they're complementarian, so to speak.

So like the complementarian movement has taken off in evangelicalism, and it is the standard state of affairs.

But then one of the things that's happened is that complementarianism has kind of become basically co -opted by a lot of feminist kind of assumptions, and so there really isn't much difference between your complementarians and your garden -variety feminists at this point, for the most part.

So one of the things that has gone is the notion that there are actually husband and wife roles. So when you think about husband and wife roles, there's a lot of people who might call themselves complementarians, but then they believe that, essentially, the only role that there might be is that the husband, in some sense, is a leader.

And then there's a lot of caveats to that, provided that he is leading in a way that his wife approves of. Right, right.

Leading like Christ, meaning totally submitting to the will of the wife at every turn.

Yeah, what woman wouldn't want to follow a husband who loves her like Christ, loves the church, and gave himself up for her?

So then, essentially, if there is any failure at the level of submission, it's all the guy's fault anyways.

The idea, though, is that for many complementarians, they've accepted the idea that the husband should be a leader and the wife should, in some sense, submit, provided that the husband's not asking her to do anything that she doesn't like or approve of, or ask her permission first before telling her to do things.

There you go, adding all those caveats. But basically, on paper, they agree that the husband is a leader and the wife is a follower.

In execution, for most, it doesn't really work itself out that way very much.

But on paper, they agree at that point. But then, basically, the problem is that beyond that, any notion of male -female roles is just totally out the door.

They basically have chucked every single role. Marriage is essentially just an opposite -sex, bestie relationship of two equal partners, one of which may, once in 10 years, have to make a tie -breaking vote kind of thing.

But then, for the most part, we don't have any roles that we understand.

So you think about male -female roles. It's just a subject that has lost any content, and there really isn't any such thing as male -female roles anymore.

And then one of those male -female roles is the idea of a woman being a homemaker, being domestic, and that actually having content to it.

And so part of it is that we've lost the idea that there are such a thing as male -female roles, and then that's why it becomes offensive.

So rephrase the question you're asking. I was just asking, where are we getting this idea that women are supposed to be the ones doing the dishes in the first place?

Yeah, that would be a role that would be located in the women. Yeah, I think you can look to Proverbs 31 or Titus 2 -4, and there's a lot of things that are being said in Proverbs 31.

It might be helpful just to kind of read it. I know that this is a passage that most women hate.

They hate the Mother's Day sermons where they're going to read Proverbs 31 and all be shamed at this monstrously unrealistic picture of a woman and all that.

But Proverbs 31 -10 says, And like some wife who can find it, she is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and she will have no lack of gain.

She does him good and not harm all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax and works with willing hands.

She is like the ships of the merchants. She brings her food from afar. So notice she brings her food from afar.

She's like a merchant ship. Notice how many times it talks about food and things like that. It is a woman's job to make the sandwiches.

It's right there. She's like the ships of a merchant. She brings her food from afar.

Notice verse 15. She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household and portions for her maidens and guests.

You've just reduced a woman to a cook. But she rises while it is yet night to provide food for her household.

She considers a field. She buys it with the fruit of her hand. She plants a vineyard. She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does not go out at night. She puts her hands to the distaff and her hands hold the spindle.

So notice food and clothing kind of responsibilities. She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy.

She's not afraid of snow for her household. For all her household is clothed in scarlet. She makes bed coverings for herself.

Her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known in the gates. When he sits among the elders of the land, she makes linen garments and sells them.

She delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and dignity are her clothing. She laughs at the time to come.

She opens her mouth with wisdom and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. Notice verse 27.

She looks well to the ways of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children will rise up, call her blessed, and her husband also.

He praises her. Many women have done exceedingly, but you surpass them all. Charm is deceitful. Beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the

Lord will be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands and let her works praise her in the gates. Notice all that is very domestic.

It's a very domestic kind of life. It's the kind of thing when you think about it. This woman in Proverbs 31, the excellent wife, is doing far more than the standard homemaker in America today.

It's not even comparable. It's a joke. Meaning this woman is not only looking to the ways of her household and her lamp does not go out at night.

Not only is she working with one hand. Not only is she taking care of the domestic stuff. She's doing much more than that.

Most young women today aren't even able to take care of the basics. I would consider laundry and dishes just to be the basics.

But then Titus 2 .4 basically says something very similar. It's kind of a shorter summary of that. Titus 2 .4

says the older women are to train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self -controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

That working at home phrase many translated as keepers at home or being domestic essentially.

But it's basically a compound word. It's the word for house, which is

Oikos. And then the word for work, which is, you know, Argos. And so you put it together and you get

Oik, Oik, Oik, goose, or something like that.

Okay. But it's essentially pertaining to carrying out household responsibilities, busy at home, carrying out household duties of women.

It's basically just a word that means domestic and, you know, the domestic duties are somewhat obvious, you know, cooking and cleaning and laundry and dishes.

And that's just bare minimum stuff, you know? So like the part, part of the thing is that's just the basics, like doing the laundry, doing the dishes.

Like that's just like, that's not even talking about deep cleaning and, you know, stuff. That's just, that's just, you know, clean the floor, you know, vacuum, dishes, laundry.

That's just, if you're doing that, you've basically done the bare minimum. Don't expect to be patted on the back, you know, kind of thing.

That's just, you know, and particularly when you're living in a time like now where it's easy as it ever has been to do the big three, you know, the food, well,

I would say the four, you know, cooking, you know, cleaning dishes, laundry, you know, that's, it's just like, that's just scrap, you know, scraping the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.

Like the bare minimum, basically. Yeah. I mean, it is not, you know, that if there's anything that it means to be a keeper at a home, it means doing cooking and cleaning and doing the dishes and doing the laundry.

And that's just very naturally coming from passages like Proverbs 31 and Titus 2. Yeah. And, and I guess,

I don't know if I'm kind of getting ahead of, ahead of the conversation here, but you know, just hearing Proverbs 31, one of the things that, you know,

I was at least picking up on, but I think probably most people would probably hear when someone's reading that chapter is there's a lot of, there's a lot of like, you know, getting up early, right.

And, and preparing food. And the lamp does not go out at night. Yeah. Like, like implying that the person, the, the wife is like, is working long hours.

She's a hard worker and she's, you know, girded her arms with strength. She's, you know, she's not just like perpetually weak and, you know, unable to do anything and take care of, you know, the basics.

She's a hard worker. She's the first to get up and last go to bed. That's the

Proverbs 31 woman. Right. And, and, you know, you kind of, it makes sense.

Why? Because, you know, there's no like old Navy to go buy your clothes from.

Right. There's no, there's no McDonald's to go, to go get, you know, breakfast or dinner or lunch or whatever.

No vacuum cleaner, no dishwasher. No washing machines, you know, you've got to, you've got to go down to the river and wash all the clothes by hand.

Right. And not get eaten by a crocodile in the process. Yeah. Offend off the wild animals in the process.

Right. And, and then you're, you're going and you're, and you're selling like the garments that, that you've made in the town square.

Right. So not only are you making garments for your family, you're making more than enough, right. You can actually sell them, you know, right.

And, and they're even like, it's not just like make the, you know, the bare, the bare minimum in terms of quality, they were talking about, you know, making sheets of fine purple and stuff, which would have been like the like luxury color basically.

Right. Right. And, and so, so there's a lot of like, it is, it is actually a really high standard.

And honestly the standard that set in Proverbs 31, this is pretty shameful to say, but I don't even think most men would, would satisfy like in terms of work, just pure work ethic.

I don't think they would satisfy the standards that are being set there. Right. Even, even people, even a lot of people who do claim to be complimentary.

And I don't know that they would necessarily meet that standard. So that should tell us something number one about society in general, but then number two, definitely about the way that we view women and, and what they do around the house.

The heart, the hard part with this conversation is just the fact that honestly, there's just going to be so many people who just don't even agree with the, with the simple point that Proverbs 31 is what, is what a wife should actually look like, like someone who works at home, you know?

Yeah. I mean, there's no way to persuade them. They just have a reading comprehension problem, which is, you know, more rooted in pride and just a rejection of God's word.

And then the way they excuse it is like, we're men talking about this. So how dare we, you know? And so. Yeah. We don't have ovaries.

How can we talk about what. Yeah. But the problem, the problem though, is that, you know, it's in the Bible and you know,

Paul talks about it and Jesus talks about it. So I think, I think we're all right, you know? Yeah. I think we're pretty safe there.

Yeah. You know, Paul instructed the older women, trained the other younger women to be domestic. So I think we can say,

Hey, maybe they should be domestic, you know? And maybe that means something, you know, maybe that means something more than just, you know, shuffle off all your domestic responsibilities to your husband.

Right. Now, like I'm saying, I don't, I don't think really most, most women or even most men honestly meet that standard in terms of work ethic.

I think a lot, I think a lot of blue color guys, like, um, what's a little bit different is like, if you,

I mean, I've worked some very physically demanding jobs, like, and you know, what, what the difference there is.

I think the idea, like the woman's work is never done. Like there, like, like a lot of the domestic stuff is, is not like backbreaking stuff that, um, in the same way that it's going to require, like, it does require strength, but it doesn't require the kind of strength to, you know, deliver appliance, 400 pound appliances into houses, you know, all day long and pouring concrete or something.

And so a lot of like, you know, like you have to think about the nature of the work. So like, you know, with a lot of like man jobs that require man strength and everything else, you, you can't, you know, you, you literally can't work.

Yeah. You, you know, I, I've worked jobs that were long hours, you know, very physically intensive.

And like, by the end of it, it's like, you're done. You know what I mean? Like you're like, so I, you know, there's one appliance delivery job where I got up at, you know, four in the morning every day.

And I worked sometimes till six at night delivering appliances all day long. And when I was done, I was done, you know?

And there's, and I would say that I worked harder than the proper 31 woman worked for sure.

You know what I mean? Like for sure. It may not have been as long hours, but then it like, she wouldn't have been able to do what

I did. Right. So, but then, you know, I think a lot of, and that's not like, not every guy is doing that kind of thing, but that's just to try to say that I don't know that like a, like it is, it's not as physically demanding of a job, but it does require a person to be in reasonable shape and to, to be a good homemaker, you know, and to do a lot of, but not like in the kind of shape you need to be in to lift a 400 pound refrigerator.

But then I think for the vast majority of men, they are working desk jobs that are a lot easier and lazier and everything else.

And so there's, they're not coming home, just having spent it all at work with nothing left.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's more, probably more what I had in mind, especially like younger generations that, yeah, they do get to have more of that, like desk, the desk, the desk job, you know, type situations where certainly there's a, there's a sense in which like mentally, you know, it can be pretty exhausting, right.

Depending, depending on what the job is. But then, you know, I think I just,

I just know a lot of people who are roughly my age or younger who, you know, they'll, they'll work for a little bit and then play for a really long time, you know, it's extremely disproportionate.

Yeah. The standard, you know, American is spending eight hours a day being entertained. So that's guys and girls like, and that's part of like part of the issue with, you know, why the rise of, you know, so many lazy women, homemakers chuckle.

I mean, it's true. But the rise of that is in large part due to like entertainment addiction, but then the guys are just as addicted.

So it's, it's a problem that goes both ways, you know, but then what's happening though, is

I think, well, we can talk about that, but, but part of it is like, yeah, it is a problem across genders that we expect eight hours of entertainment a day as normal.

And, and we're, you know, accomplishing far less like in most employers, you know, they, they,

I mean, they don't expect you to work very hard and for very long, you know, in most jobs.

So it's true. Right now for the, for the wife who's struggling to keep up with something like the dishes, for example, it's probably not uncommon for a wife to come to her husband and say,

Hey, I need your help with the dishes. I'm, I'm pretty far behind. I need you to do this thing for me.

Yeah. You know, to, to like help me. Right. Yeah. What, what's the response that the husband should, that the husband should give?

It just depends on what you're looking at. You know, it depends on what kind of situation you found yourself in. So, you know, like, what are we talking about?

Like, are we talking about like the situation where like you're newly wed and your wife has spent all day long on her phone and the house looks exactly the same and there, nothing has been done all day long.

And, you know, there's dishes that have been piled in the sink for three days and, you know, there are laundry piles of laundry, you know, that are laying all over the house, you know, that you can't tell whether or not they're clean or dirty.

Right. Like, are you talking about that? You're talking about like that kind of scenario with like one kid, right.

Who's six months old. Like, you know, what are we talking about? Are we talking about like the homemaker who has, you know, five, six, seven kids or whatever is homeschooling and has dishes and everything else.

And like, you know, does two loads of dishes a day and, and you know, two loads of laundry a day or what are we talking about?

Right. And so, and that's part of the problem is you can't even have this kind of discussion because instantaneously what people's mind go to is the, the worst case scenario, the, the, the most like.

Favorable for the, for the life. Yeah. So one of the things that's happened is like, you know, you have a, like, you know, grandmothers, like you think about the standard young woman today's grandmother or great grandmother, maybe even at this point, like they were really hard workers and, and they were more, more characteristic of a

Proverbs 31 woman than, you know, the current crop is in a lot of ways. Right. And so, but then like a lot of young women today, really, they don't have the first clue about what it means to be a homemaker and they've never been taught to be a homemaker.

And basically, you know, part, part of the thing that's happening is that you, you, you, you essentially have different types of women.

Right. And so a lot of like a lot of the women who are hard workers, they do want to go more of the career route.

And that's where they're like, they've learned discipline. They've learned all that. And they're taking that out. They, their natural assumption is they want to make something of himself.

They go career route. But then what happens in a lot of like circles like ours, where you have churches that are being advocate churches that are advocating for, you know, young people to get married and quit, you know, farting around being single and all that.

So get married. Like there's a pressure to get married. And then once you start like encouraging people to have kids, so, you know, like we said, you know, or couples who refuse to have kids basically selfish jerks, once you start encouraging them to do that, then, you know, what happens is like most young couples, they start out with the dink assumptions, double income, no kids.

And finally they get married, they have kids. And then it's like the wife decides to be a homemaker, but she's never learned how to make a home is the problem.

And then like, you know, they start out. And like, and everyone around her, a lot of times, like old friends and stuff that aren't

Christian, right. None of them are going to be the ones encouraging her in that.

Yeah. I mean, you have all the mommy blogs out there that are essentially showing the pictures of the house being an absolute disaster zone and, you know, and then the women doing their inspirational quotes, you know, don't let anyone judge you for your sloth and the home and you are enough, you know, and slight queen and all that.

And it's okay. Brace your glorious ruin and all that. But like the thing is, so like what's happening is you have so many young women who basically haven't learned the first thing about homemaking.

And then you have guys who basically think, okay, well, I want her to stay at home. I want her to have babies.

I want her to be domestic. She's never learned how to do anything like that. So he thinks it's a victory that she's not going to work.

Right. Like in the secular workforce. But then part of the problem is that she never put any thought to what it actually means to be a homemaker or very little thought into doing that.

And so then, you know, what scenario you're in, right? Like that's the question. So should she, she's so behind and everything else.

Like, well, what scenario am I talking about? And you can't assume that every single scenario is the same.

It gets, they're just not, they're not the same. Okay. So I've known plenty of men who essentially like they go to work every day, their work, their 40 hours.

And I would say that most men like in the standard relationships with, you know, who are the breadwinners and the wife is a homemaker.

I would say that most men are working much longer and much harder than women right now. It's so unbalanced the other way, like by and large, it's like so out of proportion, like, like women aren't even working five hours a day.

Even women with like young kids are not even working hardly five hours a day. It's like, they're not doing anything.

Right. And, but then they're calling it all work. But then what they're doing is they're sitting on the couch all day, looking at their phone while the kids are just fending for themselves, you know?

And so they're just distractively entertaining themselves all day long. But then like, but then, you know, instantaneously they get all the accolades and all the praise of their grandmother.

Right. You know, woman's work has never done. And you, you know, you get to go to work and all that. But my work is nonstop. It's like, you're not actually working very hard.

You know, I go, I go to work every day I come home and everything stays the same. That's what the guys are saying.

Right. So everything stays the same. And it's just like, well, you don't know what my day is like, but then the problem is like, you know, the woman can go grocery shopping on Saturday.

Right. And the guy stays home with the kid and somehow he can manage to, you know, do all the dishes, do all the laundry, clean the whole entire house.

And it only takes them like an hour and a half, you know? So, but then they're, you know, basically being told, they're being told that like, it's impossible.

And it's like, it's not impossible. It literally only took me an hour and a half to do everything that you haven't done for the past two months.

Right. And so, but then you're telling me it's impossible. You're telling me it's impossible. At some point, it's just like, you're gaslighting me.

Like I don't believe you. Right. So like the issue then is like, well, what scenario are you in? And like, you know what, like that's kind of part of the question is like, what scenario are you in?

Are you in the scenario where you've like, I'm looking at your internet history and it's been eight hours of entertainment all day long.

And now you didn't touch the dishes and you're asking me to do it. Or, you know, are you in the situation where you've literally, you know, been working all day and and you're unable to keep up because you, you know, it takes a lot of work to legitimately homeschool.

It takes a lot of work to, you know, raise, you know, multiple kids.

Like what, which one are we in? And that depends on how you answer it. So I guess, um, is the insinuation there then?

Well, if it's, if it's option a, you know, the, the one who has been on their phone all day or is watching, you know,

Netflix or TV or whatever all day, then is the assumption then that the answer would be no, you don't help.

I would say the answer is no. In general, you don't help. No. In general. Okay. That admits exceptions, but no, in general, like is the appropriate response.

Like, and that's like scandalous. But then let me see if I can give you an analogy to show you why it's not, um, as ridiculous as you may think.

Okay. Okay. Like, you know, just imagine that you are living in a time, you know, uh, where, you know, you, you have, you know, successfully dug your cave out of, uh, dug a hole in the mountain and you're living in your cave and everything else.

Right. And all that. And, um, you know, just, just imagine, you know, just imagine for a second, let's roll the clock back.

Okay. All right. So now think about it this way. Like, now let's say that, um, like, let's say that, you know, you're fighting off a saber tooth tiger trying to protect your wife.

Right. And let's say that you successfully do it, but then it does get a good swipe on you.

You get your spear in the thing. It's dead. Right. Uh, you killed it, but then you're laying on there.

You're bleeding a little bit, you know, and then the, the dire wolf comes up right now.

Imagine that your wife is standing over you with a club and like screaming at the wolf and swinging it in a girly way, but like enough to where the wolf is like scared off by it.

Right. Okay. You got this narrow in your mind. Yeah. You got the saber tooth tiger swiped you, but you killed it.

Now there's the dire wolf and, uh, your wife standing over you swinging the club like a girl at it.

Yeah. And let's say that like, she like just screaming at it. And the wolf is just like, I don't want any of this crazy mess and just runs off.

Okay. And so like, you know, as a man, wouldn't you be kind of proud of your wife for, you know, being willing to go out with you like that, you know, like being, you know, being stepping up, you know, doing stuff and abnormal protecting you.

Wouldn't you think, man, that was a good woman right there. Right. Uh, yeah. Yeah. She didn't let me get eaten by the wolf, you know?

Okay. But imagine this every day. Okay. Uh huh. And what, what happens then if like constantly she's protecting you from danger and constantly she's the one who has all the courage and she's the one who's, you know, basically it's like, that wasn't like that one story that you told like at family reunions.

Right. Like that was like, that was every week that's happening. That like some, like at some point it's just like, man, what an incompetent dude, you know?

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, all right. I guess, I guess you just need to let your wife wear the pants.

Yeah. I mean, at some point it like is totally emasculating. If she's constantly saving you from all the dangers that exist.

Right. Like at some point it's just like, well, are you a, are you the protector or her? And so like, no, like, you know, most guys would cringe if like every, everyone would kind of chuckle and smile and congratulate her if she does it that one time.

Right. Right. But then if that's like the story weekend and week out and like, that's like every day, it's just like at some point it's just like, what's going on here?

You know, like, dude, you need to like figure out what you're doing in life. Right. Like you need to figure, like something has happened, something has been mixed up.

Right. And so part of the issue there is that like related to the role of protection, a husband has the role of being the protector of his family.

The Bible says that, you know, husbands love your wife as Christ of the church and gave himself up for her. Husbands are physically stronger and they're supposed to give honor to the weaker vessel.

They're the ones who need to be the protector. And if your wife is someone constantly protecting you at some point, everyone around you just starts to cringe and starts to feel weird inside.

Right. Like, but then they, we all like the, the story that's out of the blue. We don't like the stories that are just like,

Oh, this is happening all the time. You know, poor, poor girl. That's a little, that's a little embarrassing.

That's a little embarrassing. That's how you feel now. But part of the problem. You're getting, you're getting swiped by the saber tooth tiger every time.

Right. Right. Right. At some point it's just like, what's going on here? You know, like you fainted when the goat came, you know, you know what made, you know, it would make that whole scenario a lot easier.

Was that just get the AR 15 out? There you go. Saber tooth can't get you.

500 meters away or something. Yeah. Yeah. With the explosive rounds, they can decapitate.

No way. No, but like, you imagine that kind of scenario, that's like the way it should work. But then like now that's the way it works with all the roles.

Okay. So like every role is like that. Now the problem is that we don't want to apply that anymore to domestic roles.

Okay. That same logic. But then like in a past generation, what would happen is like, you know, if a man kind of tried to come in the kitchen and do, do, do anything, you would have a woman who would like, be like waving her broom at him and saying, get out of here and don't take my job from me because that would demean me.

Right. Right. So that's the kind of response that our grandmothers would have. Get out of here. Like you're insulting me in the same way that if a woman is trying to protect a man, like he's going to feel insulted.

Unless it's that one rare campfire story, you get what I mean? And so he left his

AR 15 unloaded, got swiped by the Saber tooth. Yeah. Due to no fault in his own, but it's like the once in a life kind of story kind of thing.

But then like, so, so the issue though is just to say that like a woman does have a job to be domestic.

And if you're the one constantly coming in, like we're being told that the, you know, the key to a woman's heart is to take her job from her.

But when you take her job from her, you're dehumanizing her. Like God has put us on the earth in order to work.

Like this is God's gift to man is the things that we're called to do. And if you embrace it, you can find great fulfillment in saying that's my job and I'm going to die to do my job.

Like, you know, in the same way that like a man going to war, like says it's my duty to go to war and I, no one's going to take that from me.

And, you know, least of all my wife is going to take that from me because that's how I'm made. And that's my job.

And, you know, I would lose all masculinity by letting her do this for me.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So in the same kind of way, like there, there are obviously scenarios where a woman, like a man can step in and do the same kind of thing and it be good, but it shouldn't be on a regular basis.

It shouldn't be like, that shouldn't like the more that it's happening, like the, like the more that you're taking away someone's dignity, like that's the point.

So it's like, you know, your wife is sick for a few days and you like, and legitimately sick, not like,

Hey, I feel bad. Like I've felt bad for the past, you know, eight years or something like that every day and fuss about it.

No, like actually legitimately like go, I would go to a doctor if we trusted them anymore, which we shouldn't know.

Kind of sick. You know, like if you're like legitimately doctor's excuse like kind of sick or something medically is wrong with you and you're, you know, you're out,

I would think any like that would be the equivalent of like the man, like the woman protecting the man from the wolf.

Right. It's like, yeah, you, you do whatever it takes in that kind of scenario, but then by and large, that's not the way life works.

Yeah. I mean, that's, that shouldn't be, if that's an everyday thing, what happens is like you are infantilizing your wife and you're, and like the more that you do that, you're making yourself a woman in her eyes and she won't even, you know, essentially respect you because you're just a woman to her.

Right. Right. So essentially in safe, legal and rare, safe, legal and rare.

So like nine 99 % of the time the answer should probably, or I don't know if 99 is the number, a very high, you know, percent of the time, percentage of the time it should, the answer should just be no, that's your job.

I mean, I'm not going to do that for you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it just depends on where you're at. I mean, I think, you know, when you're single, when you just get married and let's say that the man is a breadwinner and a woman is a homemaker and you don't have any kids, there is no reason why a man should ever do the dishes ever, you know, unless she's definitely sick or, you know, like there's just literally no reason.

I mean, you literally have to do the dishes once every two or three days. And if you have a system set up, you know, like you just, you load it as you go, wait till it fills up.

You do it. You're doing dishes once every three days. There is no reason like why a man should ever do that.

It's not loving to do that. It's demeaning. It's demoralizing. And, you know, you're just, you're, you're enabling a woman to be absolutely and totally lazy.

I mean, homemaking is as easy as it ever was throughout the history of the world with all the modern technology that we're doing right now.

There is no reason to do that, you know, at all, like, except for, Hey, it's your birthday and I'm going to, you know, give you a day off kind of thing.

You know, it's mother's day. I'm going to give you a day off kind of thing, but you know, this isn't going to be a week off and a month off and a year off, you know?

Right. You know, so like, just depends on where you're at. I mean, even if you add one kid to the mix, that's as easy as it ever gets having one kid, like, you know, there, you know,

I, yeah. All right. Hey, you know, you just got home from pregnancy for the first couple of weeks. It's like, help out, you know, but after that move on, you know, this is like, you know, this is this, there's no reason for it, you know?

And, you know, I think once you get to, you know, I think once you're getting, I think that there were like simple things that, you know, you could do that are thoughtful, but like, let's say that a wife is on top of it, you know, she has a system set up, you know, she gets up every morning, you know, or every morning every three days and unloads it depending on what stage of life you're in and then you fill it up.

Right. I think, you know, I think you could, I think you could, you know, you don't have to be a slob.

I mean, you can take your, your cup that you just used and put it in the dishwasher and that kind of thing that's waiting to be, you know, uh, washed.

Does that make sense? Yeah. You know, she's just cooked a big meal for you. I think after the meal's over with, there's no problem with getting up and, you know, taking your plate and putting it in a dishwasher or something like that.

But by and large, like, like if, if you're talking about like a person piling up dishes in a sink with no plan and no structure and just letting them pile up until at some point where they feel like doing it, if that's what you're talking about, there's no reason for that.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, doesn't that kind of like, all right, so, you know, as your family, as you get older, your family grows, we're assuming, you know, we have a couple who, um, is committed to, you know, the complimentary and view of the man being the provider and the woman being the homemaker and they're, they're trying to fulfill, um, almost said the great commission.

Um, there, you talked about that this morning. Um, that's why it's on my mind, but they're, they're trying to fill the earth and subdue it, right?

They're trying to have children. Um, as you get older, your family grows, your family grows.

Doesn't it seem like at a certain point, the, the family becomes large enough that if you are to maintain that same level of expectation, then aren't you kind of saying like, all right, basically, you know, wife, you're never going to have any days off and or even like time off because there's so many responsibilities that you've got to take care of.

Is that, I mean, can't you kind of get to that like critical mass sort of point?

No, no. I mean, I, the older your children get, you teach your kids to do it.

Okay. I mean, so part of being a mother is not just to like shoulder the whole domestic responsibility.

I mean, you have a little kid, you have kids who are making messes, right? And like at some point you have to figure out how to train them to be like productive members of society and not just a useless waste of space.

You're right. So you think about it that way. I mean, they're like, the Bible talks about kids as arrows in the hands of a lawyer, right?

Meaning they have hands like in, in like they have, they're designed to work too. And so you teach your kids how to do work, right?

So, you know, I mean, our kids know how to do the dishes. Like there's no reason for me to do the dishes.

You know what I'm saying? Like we have kids who now can do the dishes and yeah, but like you teach them how to do it, you know?

And yeah, that means it's going to take three times as long, you know, for a while. And it's like, yeah, but then you have hands, you have an extra set of hands, you have an extra set of feet, you know?

So like, you know, there's not, at some point it's just like, there's no, it's like, well,

I just, the principle of it is I just want you to do my job for me. You know, it's just like, well, huh?

Like you're not doing my job for me. Right. So now part of the issue is that like what's happening in most situations, the reason why it's weird is essentially that well,

I'll get there in a minute, but like, just to answer your question, you're never having a day off, you know, like we can, we can prepare.

I mean, ladies can prepare for things and like, you know, if you like, I'm not, you know, personally a

Sabbatarian, but you know, if you wanted to take a Sabbatarian perspective of it, one of the things you could do is just cook extra meals on Saturday, you know, have all your dishes well planned.

And, you know, literally all you're doing at that point is just, you have a house that's mostly maintained. It's, it's not just a disaster zone.

And, and then like it's maintained, you have, you can, I mean, we have like ovens and everything else.

Like you can put things in an oven and not have much work to do. And, you know, you can have, you can go into Sunday.

If you wanted having an empty dishwasher, I can absolutely empty a dishwasher cause you planned well. And then, you know, throw your meals in the freezer, even use paper plates.

If you want to gas, you know, like, you know, and paper napkins and paper forks, you know, and just like, yeah.

So today's going to be a day off. Right. So all we're doing is throwing these freezer meals I prepared in there and, you know, it's not going to be a big cleaning day.

It's not going to be a big work day. I mean, those things are possible. It's just a matter of like the issue though is, are you preparing well?

Right. Right. So what's happening in a lot of cases, you don't, you don't have like a disciplined homemaker who has any structures in place in order to handle even the basics.

Right. And so then it just, it gets harder and harder and harder. And if you, if, I mean, if you can't with one kid, figure out how to do the dishes once every three days and do the laundry once every three days, like you can't handle anything like that is as easy as life gets for anyone.

You are essentially royalty, right? Like you have, like you're essentially royalty at that point.

Like that. It's just like who has that kind of freedom in their life. And so, but then if you learn to plan well, like, you know, everything doesn't pile up.

If you learn to get good routines where you clean up as you go, you learn to, you know, have good routines.

I mean, that's something that my dad was constantly talking to us about. You know, I, we were a little bit too stubborn to learn it, you know, as well as we should have, but it was too simple.

But I mean, you learn how to clean up as you go, you know, you teach your kids not just, you know, throw all the toys on the floor in a room and then move to the next room and throw all the toys on the floor in the next room, then move to the next room.

And, you know, you teach them that now you clean up as you go. Don't just make messes, you know, and everything else.

And so I think part of it is due to like, just you can plan to have breaks if you want to, if you have a goal.

And you do have kids. And part of the goal, I mean, the part of the thing with kids is teaching them, like what are they going to do? Just sit around and be entertained all day long.

Like what are they here for? You know, like, you know, so like put them to work, man.

Yeah. You know, that's interesting. I remember a while back, I was reading about the

Amish of all people. And one of the things that I found interesting in the way that they at least, you know, raised their, their children is, and I think

I've said this before on the podcast, but they, they basically have like a lot higher standards for their children than, than we do.

Right. I mean, and pretty, and normal American society, my experience has kind of been that even like, you know, 16 to 18 year olds are pretty much like, you cannot count on them for anything.

They're pretty much still like, they're just big babies. You get what

I'm saying? Like they can't take care of the most basic responsibilities. And I mean, you know, I'm not any better.

I was that way and a lot of, and a lot of aspects of my life when I was that age too.

So, you know, I'm kind of condemning myself when I say that, but what the, what

I found very interesting about the way the Amish raise their children is, you know,

I think starting around four years old, they get, they get their four year olds to start helping with the infants and the, you know, the newborns.

And, and I don't know. Well, I know, you know, 16 year olds that I would never trust to take care of an infant.

And, and I think what that says is, and just in terms of, you know, you brought up the whole like raising up your kids to be helpful around the house and to do work around the house.

I think what that says is that we probably have just set the bar far, far, far too low when it comes to putting responsibility on children.

I mean, one of the things that we try to do at our house is be very diligent about making sure that our daughter knows how to clean up after herself.

And so we have to like, I mean, you, at this point, you know, she's not even two yet. And so you have to coach her up on every aspect of it.

But then and, and, and, you know, like half the time, it doesn't really get cleaned the way that you want it to be clean.

Right. Like as a final product, but then the expectation is like, all right, we're going to put this work in on the front end.

And then, you know, in a few more years, she'll know how to do all these things and we'll just tell her to do it and, and she'll do it, you know, now, obviously there's still children.

And so it's not always that simple. They don't always want to listen. And I get that, but you know, they're going to listen a lot more often.

Do what now? It just takes so much longer. So do I really want to like, you know, spend the 30 minutes doing something where I can just pick it up and it'll, you know, take no time for me.

But then that's, I do think trying to train your kids to do that, it bears fruit over time. And then your life gets substantially easier over time, the more that you put them to work.

And that's part of the role. I mean, that's part of the role of the homemaker is the keeper at home to be domestic is to teach, you know, is to use your kids for that kind of stuff.

And, and so, you know, I think that's, um, that's, uh, part of, a point that's missing in the discussion as if it's just a husband and wife forever, you know, now what's happening though, is in a lot of couples, it's just like, like what's happening is that you don't have a lot of men who have taken on the role of being a provider fully.

So you have a lot of men who basically start off marriage, looking to their wife to share the role of provider and then like turn around to fair play.

It's like, at that point, it's just like, well, you expect me to work a full -time job too, because you don't make enough money.

And then like, I'm supposed to work this full -time job and do all the house stuff. And it's like, well, what are you doing?

Just sitting around playing video games all day long. Like what, like what, you know, at that point that's perfectly reasonable.

But I mean, I think, um, I don't think that's a reasonable, um, situation to find yourself.

And I think it's just, yeah, you're not ready to be married unless you're ready to fully provide for your family and, you know, wife, whatever job you take, you know, you need to realize that your first job is the home job.

And so you don't want to overload yourself and, you know, you don't want to, you know, work yourself so hard that you can't fulfill the basic first job.

Right. And then if you're working so much that you expect your husband to share the load there, quit working, you know, and just do that.

Right. Um, right. And so, but anyways, yeah. Now is it like offensive to, um, you know, basically say like,

Hey, the dishes are for women. Women need to take care of the dishes.

Like, isn't that kind of chauvinistic, you know, that's the, that's the term that, well, to be fair,

I haven't really heard. I mean, I haven't really heard that term in a long time, but, uh, chauvinistic, but, um, you know, isn't that kind of like the, like, you're just a sexist.

If you say that women need to take care of are the ones that need to take care of the dishes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but probably,

I mean, you know, that's essentially the accusation that's being made. And I would just say, yeah, probably.

Yeah, sure. I guess if that's what you think, um, um, I mean, I just, I don't really care about those words anymore.

So I think the point though is, I mean, it is funny. It's funny to have that kind of reaction to, you know, like, you know, if you expect your wife to, you know, go make you a sandwich or something like that to do the dishes or to do the laundry, it's like, am

I, is this all I am to you? I'm just, uh, you know, I'm just a dishwasher or, you know, it's all

I am is just a cook, you know, and how dare you reduce me to this? And, and like, but the problem is it's that kind of logic doesn't really work on the other side.

So when you think about how it works with a man, it's like, like a woman has a reasonable expectation that a man, like most women have a reasonable expectation that men should go to work.

I can't, I don't know any women who have, like if you're the kind of man who's depressed all day long or refuses to go get a job, you would have no shortage of pastors who would basically, you know, scream at you and holler at you and pour cold water on you and probably kick you.

You know, maybe we're not allowed to do that anymore because of threat of litigation, but that would be the kind of thing that would happen at least 15 years ago.

It's like, man, what in the world are you doing? Get up and go to work. Right. And the Bible says a man who doesn't provide for his own household, he's abandoned the faith.

He's worse than an unbeliever. So we have little like to no tolerance for the kind of man who basically doesn't provide for his household.

Like we know that like something big has gone wrong there. And, you know, if a man were to look at a woman and she were just in, like he doesn't want to go to work again, he wants to call in sick.

And she's like, you better go to work because we're going to lose the house, honey. And if he were to look at her and say, how dare you reduce me to just a laborer, right?

Like that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. That is so stupid, less embarrassing. Like that's just like, like what in the world?

Like no one would take that guy's side. And in fact, everyone would say like, that guy must be like mentally handicapped or something like that.

Right. Like there's something wrong with his brain if he thinks that that makes any kind of sense. But then like in the opposite, that one of the things that's happened is that you like, that makes sense for, you know, a woman in a way that's just equally scandalous.

So if a man doesn't provide for his household, he's a man of faith. He's worse than unbeliever. Notice how all the, you know, woman rises early to provide food for her household in Proverbs 31.

The issue is like, if she doesn't provide for her own household in the ways that she's called to, the same thing applies to her.

She's a worthless woman who is worse than an unbeliever. But the problem is there's no one who's willing to say it on the opposite end.

Okay. So no one's willing to say it like no one's willing to call it what it is. It's like you like fundamentally have rejected your reason for existence.

You fundamentally rejected your reason to be alive in a way that like you, you're showing little, no evidence that there's a spirit of God at work inside of you.

If you are able so quickly just to throw aside your job like that. So like now, like, you know, to the world that obviously sounds sexist.

And it obviously sounds chauvinist and everything else because we bought the lie that men and women are interchangeable parts and essentially the same.

And that's where the ginger stuff comes from. But the point is that we've called been called to work.

And if a man refuses to take on his job, everyone will call him on it. I mean, most people call them.

I mean, there are the liberals out there who will, you know, let them whine and fuss and be a, you know, effeminate woman who's just laying on his feigning couch, you know, to stress and everything else.

But for the most part in conservative circles, no one lets a man get away from it, get away with it. And there's a,

I have seen, I have seen some, some men who, you know, essentially say,

Hey, look, I stay home and I take care of the house so that my wife can go and work. Yeah.

But everyone, you know, every normal red bellied American male instantaneously cringes when they say that, you know, it's just like,

Ooh, you know, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and for good reason, you know, God, God's called women to that work because he's equipped them to that work.

And that's the difference between like patriarchy and complimentary. And at that point is that like, like those jobs, those roles are tied to ontology.

They're tied to being, they're tied to a creational makeup and, and like for the, the, you know, there's, it's, it's, they're not just arbitrary jobs.

You know, a woman's going to be much better equipped to be a homemaker than a man is. It's no comparison.

Yeah. But no, the thing is, is it sexist and that's how people respond. It's like, yeah, you respond that way because you, you know, constantly telling women that they're strong and courageous and powerful and, and everyone knows they're not, you know?

And, and so you just like the point, part of the problem though, is that you demean women when you do that.

Like when you take away their job, you demean them, you, you infantilize them and it really is a soft bigotry of low expectations.

You know, it should, it, it should not be that like a man works a full -time job only to come home and do all the things that his wife has spent too lazy to do all day long.

And there's a lot of situations where that's happening and it's a shame. Now that's not saying like the problem, the problem is not all on the women's end of things.

The problem is that like the men basically are letting them get away with it and enabling them to do it.

And so, and they're, they're so afraid of their wife that they're not willing to hold them responsible for the obvious, you know?

So, I mean, if you're the kind of guy in that scenario and you know, every day you come home, it's just like those same piles of clothes are all over the house and the same sink full of dishes has just gotten bigger.

And your wife is just telling you about how stressful her day was. Like the part of the problem is that you don't, you're not man enough to face her anger and call it what it is, right?

Like you're not. And like, and that's your fault. Because you get what you subsidize and you know, you're, you're too much of a, you know, a wimp to be a leader.

So, so men need to step up and quit enabling, you know, a lot of their wives to be, you know, worthless, you know, but then like what they think, like the part of the problem is the lie is like, you think that like, well, if you help her that make her love you more, but all that does is make her more miserable, more depressed and despise you.

So it's just, it doesn't work that way. Okay. So you mentioned, you mentioned basically facing the woman's wrath, right?

By confronting them are, are you basically saying like, Hey, at that point, if someone is not taking care of their job as a homemaker and there's no like reasonable expect,

I mean explanation for it, meaning like they're definitely ill or, you know, some, something along those lines, are you basically saying like,

Hey, you need to confront and just say like, Hey, look, you're being lazy. Is that like the response that needs to happen?

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I just, you just, you need the same response you need to the guy.

So whatever the, whatever the response is to the guy who refuses to go to work, who's calling in sick, you know, about to lose his job.

Like whatever the response is appropriate for the man in that scenario is a response is the same response that's appropriate to the woman in that scenario.

And so like, that's the point. And now like immediately, like the part of the problem is, it's just like, you know, immediately it's like, you're a man, you don't understand.

And like, you don't know what it's like to be a homemaker. And like the, the issues, like the thing, the thing that makes homemaking hard, particularly when you only have like when you have no kids or one or two kids.

Okay. The things that make them hard are not the job itself. Like that is the job itself is not hard, but makes it hard is like, like the mental stuff.

Right. So it makes it hard is like the isolation. Like you feel isolated, like you have a lot of free time.

Like, so the more free time that you do have the less, like, you know, there's a person who's going to find something to do because they want to be productive.

And then there's kind of person who's just kind of waste time. And so like, there's a lot of temptations that come with the job and like in the early years.

So, so now that we have microwaves and now that we have dishwashers, and now that we have washing machines and dryers, like it's gotten easier, but then women are underperforming is the point.

They're not doing what their grandmothers did. And so now you have all the time on your hand. There's like the isolation. There's like more time to think.

There's more time to feel lonely. There's like less to do. And, and so like the issue is, it's like, if you are a man, you like step in and you take it all away.

Like all you're doing is you're creating a monster is what you're doing, you know? So what you need to do is you need to like take a step back, you know?

And that's counterintuitive. It's like, well, if it's all a mess, like, you know, you're like, she's just going to get mad. It's like, well, you need to be man enough to face her wrath, man, you know?

And so, and what you need to do is the same thing that she should do to you if you're not going to work is to call her on it.

And you can't, you know, be gas lit into pretending like, you know, reality is not reality.

Okay. So, I mean, I know plenty of guys in that kind of scenario who, you know, basically, you know, week in and week out their wife or they're doing nothing.

You know, I know, you know, I know a guy whose wife basically spent all day long watching

TV shows and, and he knew it because he could look at the history and she's spending all day long watching

TV shows. And it's just like, she's telling him, Oh, you don't know what it's like. And it's just like, you know, the kid is crying nonstop and everything else.

But then, you know, if, if you're reasonably informed as to what life with a baby is like,

I mean, they sleep all the time for the first few months. Yeah. They literally sleep all the time, man.

And it's just like, I, you know, it's like, I, I have a brain, I know what's going on, you know, like, that's like, you know, but he's being told that it can't happen.

But yes, no, he needs to, you need to confront them. You need to confront them about it. And you need to like, you need to draw a line in the sand and it's something you might even want to, you know, talk to the pastors about.

It's a church discipline kind of thing. Don't just let it go on and on and on. Like if, if the Bible says a man who doesn't provide for his own household is abandoned the faith and worse than an unbeliever.

If a wife refuses to do her job, she's abandoned the faith and worse than an unbeliever. This is like, this is significant.

You know, now most people like they instantaneously, you're talking about church planning someone for not doing the dishes.

It's like, what is she doing in her life right now? Like what is she doing?

Right. So like doing the dishes, doing the laundry that is bare minimum, like something that like, if you can't figure out how to do a meal plan to cook with all the modern convenience we have, you can't figure out how to prepare three meals a day, do the dishes and do the clothes and keep on top of that with zero to one kids.

Like there is something significantly wrong that's happening there. That is not a hard job.

Okay. Now it's a very valuable job. I'm not demeaning the job. It's a very, very valuable job, but you should be doing a lot more than that.

That's the point. And there's a lot more that you could do to help your family than that. And like, we've set the bar so low to where it's reasonable and normal to like, not keep on top of the laundry because, you know, maybe when you have seven kids, it gets hard to do it if you're doing it all by yourself and not making them, teaching them how to do it.

Right. It's like, yeah, at a certain point it gets hard, but then you should have trained your kids to help at that point to where they're sharing the load.

But like, if you're talking about zero to one kids, two kids, even like do it like, this is not, this is not hard.

Like, you know, like it's not hard to do, like the bare basics is dishes and clothes.

Right. Right. Right. And so, you know, at a certain point it's just like, I do think if you're a guy in that kind of scenario, you know, it is the kind of thing where you say,

Hey, I want you to fill out. Like if, if, if you think that I have no idea what your day is like, then please tell it to me.

You know? And one thing that like happens in counseling is that sometimes I get people to fill out like a 15 minute, you know, a breakdown of their schedule for the day.

You know, if they're having time management kind of issues and that's the kind of thing a husband might do to his wife is just to say, all right, like I, you saying

I don't understand, I want to understand. So give me information so I can understand. So fill this out, you know, fill out the sheet every 15 minutes as an experiment, let's do it for a couple of days.

Give me the information I need to understand what we're talking about so that I can better understand what your day is like and fill it out, you know, for me.

And, you know, I guarantee that 40 hours of work is not going to be on there. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, you should be talking to them and treating them like a human being who's a moral agent responsible for God and actually confronting.

And if you don't do it, it just gets worse. You know, it's not going to get any easier. The more kids you have, it's just going to get worse and worse and worse.

Right. And you're kind of wasting like a lot of their formative years if you're not trying to capitalize on teaching them, you know, the value of, of, um, cleaning up after themselves and, and knowing how to do laundry and dishes and whatever else.

Right. Yeah. And I mean, you know, over and over again, you read through like this, um, you read through the book of Ecclesiastes and it's going to, it's going to tell you that, you know,

God's gift to the sense of man is their work. And if a woman is not doing her work, she is going to be depressed and probably turning to medication and feeling miserable all the time.

And, and it's no shock wise that's happening. It's because she's lazy. Okay. It's the real housewives experience, man.

Um, okay. Well, um, that's just about all the questions that I've got for you,

Tim. Is there anything that, um, you wanted to say that maybe we, you felt like we didn't cover, like you had a little bit more to say or, or anything like that?

Yeah, sure. I mean, I, I do think, um, you know, I, I do think, um, part of the issue here is that most, like most couples are starting out with a double income, no kids kind of expectations.

And so then what happens is you have some expectation that man is not, you know, fully taken on this job of being a provider.

And then they're both going to share that role. And then they're both going to share the domestic stuff. And I would just say that that's a horrible way to start out marriage, but you want to start out marriage doing is to, you know, be at a point where you can provide for two plus one kids.

Right. So you start off marriage, being ready to provide for three people. Should God bless your efforts at intimacy and get, you know, baby going.

Um, I start off that way and, you know, have it very clear that this is a role.

This is not something that you made up and have a very strong expectation that like, you're not like 95 % of the time, you're not taking, you're not touching this.

Right. And like, you shouldn't ask like, and in fact, if you are asking, that's a failure, like, that's just like, this is not, we're not in that stage of life where you should be asking me to take care of this job when we are just the two of us.

Right. So now you don't go out of your way to make a bunch of messes for her, you don't learn to clean up after yourself.

Don't be a slob. Don't just mess up every room that you go in and say, I'm not touching it. It's your job. Right. So like, that would be a distortion of what

I'm saying, but like go into marriage with an expectation. I have my job, you have your job and 95 % of the time we're going to do our jobs and we're not going to look to each other and we're not going to make part of our marriage, like being this like demand, you take my job if you love me.

Right. Yeah. And so like for the man, it's like, I, I have my jobs.

I'm a protector. I'm a provider. I'm a leader. I'm, you know, I'm sanctifier in our home. I'm not like, like, these are my jobs that I've been given.

And like, I, um, I'm called to love you like Christ loves the church. Like I, I'm called to sacrifice and lay down my life for you.

And like, like I'm, I'm going to do my job and you're going to do your job. And we're like, you know, just like divorce is not an option.

Like in the vocabulary, like what should be the case is that couples are starting out saying like you doing my job is not an option.

It's mine. Okay. Yeah. And that goes both ways. The husband is saying, you're not going to be a provider. I'm going to be a provider.

That's my job and you have a job and you do your job. I do my job. And we're not even gonna talk about that.

Right. Yeah. Like if I get knocked out by the saber tooth tiger, okay. You pull out the club, baby.

And you know, if nothing else, we get eaten together. Okay. You know, but you know, that's fine.

But like, that's, that's the extreme. You don't argue from the extreme to the norm and like the vast majority of situations like that should just be, it's a husband's job to admire his wife when she's doing her job as a wife job to admire her husband when he's doing his and quit trying to share a load and just make that normal, make that just, that's how we're going to do it.

Okay. And so take pride in it. Take pride in your job. Right. Yeah. And so then like, there's obviously more to like being a husband than just like, you know, being a provider.

So, I mean, there is the kind of guy who basically is like, yeah, I'm not touching the dishes. That's woman's work and I'm not doing the clothes that's woman's work.

You know, as he just makes a mess everywhere he goes and you know, does his job. And like, you know, she has, you know, she is hardworking and he's, you know,

I think it's, I think it's ridiculous if you're making your wife work a full time job and then making her do all the domestic stuff with high expectations like that's on you.

You're dumb. Yeah. Right. Go get a job. You're a hypocrite. You're a hypocrite. Yeah. Yeah.

That's not like, that's not smart. That's not biblical. That's not faithful. Make her like, you know, have the expectation that she's going to fully devote herself to her primary job and anything else is extra, you know?

And that may mean working like a little part time job for a little bit, you know, at the very beginning. You know, and it may mean just not, you know, just for the sake of learning how to do these things, but maybe your mother never taught you how to do right.

It may be that you start off marriage saying, I'm going to, I don't want to work and I'm not, don't ask me to because I want to learn how to make meal meal plan.

I want to learn how to get on a good cleaning schedule. I want to learn how to do, I want to devote myself to like this job that I'm going to be called to for most of my life.

Right. And I want to do it well. And I think any guy would be crazy if he didn't just say, go for it.

Right. Right. And so I think there's a lot of guys who are more than happy to say, well, like you provide just as much as I'm providing because, you know,

I didn't make a lot of good decisions in my life and everything else. And now we're stuck with them all. And then, you know, you go do all that women's stuff and I'm going to just sit around on my butt.

And it's just like, well, I get the grief then. But the point is just to say, make it, you know, take on, everyone needs to take on their roles and treat them like there's something you guard, you know, treat them like the old, you know, grandmothers do where they're waving their husbands out with the broom kind of thing.

Right. This is my job. You don't dehumanize me by telling me I'm unnecessary.

Right. This is why I'm here. And I, like, I take a good kind of pride in, you know, that, and that's why

I'm here. And instead of just like developing resentment for each other, what would happen is you would like this deep, you know, resentment that doesn't go away.

What you do is you basically learn to praise each other for the role that God's designed them to do.

And women are going to be better homemakers than men, you know, 99 % of the time if they devote themselves to it. So, right.

Like, but if they fight it, then, you know, it can get real bad. Right. Yeah. I think that's a, um, like a pretty good, a pretty encouraging thing to hear, especially right there at the end, basically saying,

Hey, you know, husbands, Hey, wives, you really should be getting to a place where you say,

I take pride in the role that God has given me. Right. And that's funny in the, in the month of the worst kind of pride ever, here's a good kind of, here's a good kind of pride to, you know, pursue and that's joy and, uh, finding joy and contentment role that God has, has made you for.

Yeah. Uh, all, all of these things. And, and for men that's to be, you know, providers is to be leaders is to be protectors, um, is to be teachers, uh, all of those things.

And then for women, you know, um, it's to be, uh, uh, you know, homemakers, right.

And, and they're meant to be, women are meant to be teachers too. Um, they're, we've talked about that some, they need to be training up the children to, uh, you know, be able to take care of themselves and they need to be, you know, even discipling the children spiritually when, when the husband's not there.

Right. And so there's a lot, um, there's a lot that could, that has been said and probably even more that we could say, but I think that's a good place to end on is to really challenge those of you listening to say, do you really take that sort of pride and the role that God has given you?

Are you in the last thing? I mean, the last thing I would just comment on that too, is that if you're in that situation, it'll get worse before it gets better.

Uh, you know, it actually, it will, I mean, if you let it go and you let it go and you let it go, it'll get worse before it gets better.

And, you know, most men don't want to go there because they think my wife will never want to have sex with me again.

Right. If I go, I mean, that's essentially the thing that's held over the head, but the problem is that they probably don't want to have sex with you very often anyways.

Right. And so like, I mean, that's the point, like they don't, you know, and like you do and like you, you know, you doing their job for, for them, isn't going to help that.

It just makes it worse. You know, all you're doing is turning them into a, like a depressed, lazy, irresponsible person who feels worthless all the time.

And then you have to deal with what comes from all that, the depression, the laziness, the, you know, the constant unhappiness, the constant frustration and bitterness and everything else.

And so the issue is be a man, face it, face the anger and say, you know, I'm not,

I'm like, here's the thing. If you don't cook for me, I'm not going to eat like that's the way it's going to work.

Right. Like I won't, you know, like you don't cook for me. I'm not going to eat like a, you don't do the clothes.

They're not getting done. You don't do the dishes. They're not doing, they're not getting done. I'm just going to wear dirty clothes then to work.

And if I lose my job, I lose my job. You know, like that's the way it's going to work and draw a line in the sand.

And it's just like, well, she'll, you know, I'll be sleeping downstairs. It's like, no, I won't be sleeping downstairs.

If she wants to sleep downstairs, she can. Right. Okay. I mean, I never understand like the kind of guy who's like,

I'll be sleeping in a dog house tonight. It's like, no, that's your bed, man. You sleep there. And if they're mad at you and refuse to be reconciled, they can go sleep wherever they want, you know?

Like, and so like the point is just face it, like face that. And it'll get worse before it gets better, but it'll get a lot better, you know,

Lord willing in a lot of situations, you know, and that's where you step in and get your pastors to help too.

Right. And so, so I guess that's where we'll leave you guys. I guess men that are listening, you know, if you find yourself in this sort of situation or, or you know someone who does,

I would encourage you to, you know, pursue joy and contentment in your own, in your own role, and then teach your wife to find joy and contentment and the role that she's been created for.

And the same goes for women. You know if you, if you find that you're, you're not happy with the role that God has made you for, which is partly to be a homemaker, then, then that's an area that you have to say, all right,

I'm, you know, I'm living in rebellion to what God has commanded.

I need to repent of that and pursue obedience and, and find joy and pray and ask

God to give me a heart that is thankful for what he has created me to do.

So, so hopefully that's helpful for you guys. We want to thank you all for listening and supporting the podcast.

And our prayer is that this, you know, does equip you guys for the works of ministry in your own lives, you know, applying it for yourselves, but then also being able to take the things that you hear from us and use them in your own ministry and, and your own, you know, areas of discipleship with the people that are in your life.

And so we thank you guys again and we look forward to having you on the next one. We'll see you next time.