September 19, 2016 Show with Lynn K. Wilder on “7 Reasons Why We Left Mormonism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live-streaming. This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on this 19th day of September 2016.

The Wilders’ Background and the Topic of Leaving Mormonism

I'm really excited about today's program. We have one guest returning and we have another guest on for the very first time and they happen to be husband and wife and I'm speaking of Michael and dr. Lynn Kay Wilder.

They are co-founders of ex-mormon Christians United for Jesus they are co-authors of the book seven reasons we left Mormonism, which is our topic for today and It is my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron Lynn.

I'm welcome you back. Welcoming you back in Michael. I am welcoming you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron.

Well good to be here. Thank you so much for you know. It's just doing is trying to define what the Mormons actually teach and what is biblical Christianity actually teach and you compare the difference and you want to be a Mormon that then you cannot.

That's where you have to draw.

A line in the sand. Yes truth matters and truth should matter to everyone and We should not allow political correctness to cloud our thinking because correcting somebody in serious error is a very high act of love and Graciousness.

Obviously there are people who do that unlovingly. They do that with a spirit of hate and bigotry. They may do that out of their own arrogance and pride but that does not necessitate those Horrible qualities in order for correcting someone to be accomplished.

And it can be accomplished with the utmost of dignity and Charity and respect. And I know that that's what we will be hearing today on iron sharpens iron from our guests. We've already had as I mentioned as a guest dr. Lynn Kay Wilder on the program.

She spoke about her newest book unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the Mormon Church. She is a former tenured faculty member at Brigham Young University and A mentor to hundreds of students and she is the producer of more than 50 scholarly publications and the author of four books.

Today we have joining us for the first time her husband Michael and rather than Repeating the information twice by having me read it. And you tell our listeners Why don't you Michael just tell our listeners a bit about yourself before we go into the seven reasons why you two left?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Well, I'm just a humble Christian so LDS for over 30 years and do our cousin at BYU. I held other leadership positions and so forth and I I am only stating this not to vote in Mormonism. We really do not understand you on the other church and in multiple bishoprics in Indiana.

I'm all served in Indiana on the high council, which is a regional area. Congregations of the LDS Church are defined as awards. Okay? The area that I was in is called the Indianapolis, Indiana North Stake and that took Part of Indianapolis car Muncie, Indiana and so forth.

And so it's a pretty good area. So I served on that for like nine years. I would speak I would represent my wife and I also in there bringing people doing ordinances with people for their the again my wife priest and So in the LDS Church to do things in the LDS Church.

You have to have you know to serve with her in training and.

Last time when we had Lynn on she gave us a very detailed description of her conversion to Christianity from Mormonism after already being a tenured professor at BYU one of the most prestigious of the Latter-day Saint colleges and universities and institutions and To just recall some of that She came to Christianity eventually by God using your own son Micah Who who was the first convert I believe in the family to Christianity.

When did you Michael come into the mix as far as God? Touching your heart making you realize wait a minute. I am in the wrong religion.

Well.

It's something that just doesn't happen overnight and You know my you know when my son came home from his mission earlier my third son Micah and You know, he basically stated, you know, Jesus is enough philosophy I still love.

My son assumed that he was incorrect in his understanding of the of the doctrine of the LDS Church and a Bible. So the thing that he told me and and my dear wife was the fact that Just be open and what you read and take away.

And since we were convert. You know I could do that easier because I can reflect back to when I was a young man before I was taught everything in Mormonism. So I promised him that I would do life did it going to make sure that the family stays together.

So kind of thinking well, I already know this. I've been reading this for many many years. Really nothing new here that I will learn. I've been all these leadership positions. I've done this I've done this, I've studied the Book of Mormon, I've studied Doctrine and Covenants, I've taught Seminary.

When he wants you to know something he will let you know it you will open up your eyes. And so he points at reading one night.

And.

My calling is to redeem the dead committee. Okay, there's abstraction in the LDS Church called people to get their temple recommend everything in the LDS Church Revolve people you've got to get to the temple if you're going to get live with how many places, you know I grew, you know deep and so forth a prodigal son, which is you know, you know that's that's interesting and as I read on through here and then I get into 18 and even though I have read where he's going to read this from King James version Two men went up and the other I'll read in another version and I get eyes of all I was reading this I remember how many times church meeting you have you break you have the women that go into what they call Relief Society you have the young men and for the young men's group of women and so forth and then you have Elders and then you have high priest and and the us old folks who were in leadership position.

Well, and there we would talk and discuss and we would have a lesson in Indiana and all thought I'm not like that. You know, we have more knowledge. We think given the fullness of the gospel. And all of a sudden that service more knowledge at a once a month Mormonism you in a year and we're tithing for the whole sunny and Teaching this then just the record this guy's also not just he's kind of really hitting the point here that He's talking to God and again when he's praying to God He's praying to himself.

He says So, you know, this is all rolling in my head very very very quickly. Then I'm reading on and it says eyes into heaven, but he's not in God Center and when you read that in In fact when you go to the stand before that he has a right to be there.

And this year's request to be worthy to enter this with you saying in my current pocket at that point I'm reading it. I've got a piece of paper in my pocket. That's a temple recommend just given to me was on a new state.

They're okay. So we've got this pension I'm doing all the right thing and then Christ says he in better position than the guy who's up to you to make you stand before God and Once you understand God started I agree with that.

They have this problem when he does that he started my journey Opening up the scriptures and as the more I Mormon teaching journey you make this walk. You realize you have to come to a point and a decision and in God.

And.

Well the.

Providentially my mother Made it clear to me on her deathbed That she believed in the true gospel of Jesus Christ by referring to that same text in Luke 18 The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector that that was used by God to open your eyes.

My mom was a lifelong very dedicated Roman Catholic and.

When.

She was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and was we were told that she had six months to live. I Being a born-again believer and evangelical Protestant and had concerns About if she was trusting in anything, but Christ and his finished work on the cross Shoot.

My mother was always a very godly woman and put me to shame even when I was a born-again Christian in regard to her humility her her sacrificial Behavior her selflessness and I could go on and on about my mother.

And.

Therefore it was always Somewhat awkward for me to evangelize her because in many ways she was far superior to me in manners of life. But I had to ask her on her on her deathbed. I said mom You know Your children don't have anything to complain about you.

We can't even think of one thing to complain about you. You've had a life filled with wonderful deeds and works. You are a very religious woman. Do you think any of that is helping you? Achieve heaven and she said no.

And I said, why is that? And she said well that would be like That religious leader who went into the temple and when he prayed He bragged about all the wonderful things he did and he bragged about all the horrible things He did not do and there was a tax collector in that temple who beat his breast bowed his head and said Lord be merciful to me a sinner and Jesus said it was That tax collector that was saved and I'm like that tax collector Chris I know that there's nothing in me That would enable me to enter heaven that it's all because Jesus died for me I almost fell off my chair when she said that because this was not coached you know, my mother was not a voracious reader of the Bible as most Roman Catholics are not and even Roman Catholic apologists will tell you this That most Roman Catholics hardly ever pick up the Bible and because that was the way especially the older Catholics that's the way they were instructed you leave that stuff up to the priest so he could teach you what really is meant to be Understood in the Bible.

You don't really need to do this on your own. In fact, you probably shouldn't now, of course. There are a lot of changes in the way that the Roman Catholic Church presents these things Since Vatican II and in our modern age, but the the facts are that they still have a dogma that teaches a works righteousness.

But anyway, I just wanted to bring that up because it was a remarkable similarity and you two were from different entirely different religions and My my it was just a blessing from the Lord to hear my mom say those things.

You know a lot of people it's not just the Mormons. You have the Jehovah Witness. Have you know independent Baptist churches and you have this and you have all these little groups that can become kind of legalistic.

They just kind of say this lady came after me and she actually had some tears in her eyes. She's holding this book and says, you know I and I never understood and this book has changed me to realize it's not the cat.

It is Jesus alone that saves me and that's you know, that's a great great Understanding. As you well know you you have to put along into a congregation. It's okay to say you're Baptist or Methodist, but you must be a Christian first.

Okay, that's the key thing and as my son always says in his presentation It's not about the name that all names. No, you can have a congregation that way, you know. If if I have to become a Baptist to be saved There's a Mormon to be truly saved which is what the Mormons teach you have to become a Mormon.

You have to be baptized actually be able to live in the present huge problem because this contradicts air contradicts everything in the old.

Mormon Public Relations, Truth Claims, and the First Break

Yeah, we're gonna be going into seven reasons why what you said is true In a moment, but it is interesting that there has been a radical change in Public relations in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as I believe I may have shared with your Wife during our last interview or perhaps it was another guest but not long ago here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I encountered a group of young Mormons walking down the street and I knew right away they were Mormons because of their white shirts black ties and the badges on their pockets and I called over to them asked them if they were Mormons.

They Confirmed that they were and we had a brief chat and It was an entirely different Public relations pitch that I received from them. That I read then I received in the 1980s in my living room when a couple of Mormon missionaries Came to my home at my request after I called a toll-free number on TV to get a book of Mormon and I was a new Christian and I basically just wanted to evangelize them but These young Mormons that I just recently encountered The first thing out of their mouths to me were you probably heard we think that we're the only true religion, but that's not true we're just another group of Christians just like you and I remember thinking to myself my that's a very Foreign approach to what I've ever heard from a Mormon before and I basically Replied to them that this I hope you know that this what you're saying right now is a very novel thing in your church's history That that to say such a thing was never uttered by Mormons until probably the last handful of years.

I mean This is either a change in teaching or it's actually demonstrating that they're more concerned Over winning you over than your eternal soul, isn't this?

That their public relations Faith using Christian words, but I say meaning this is Doctrine and Covenants the only truth on the face of the pure truth utterly Reliable they're in right now. Is that they're pure truth and utterly reliable.

We do believe. It also says in the Book of Mormon, you know The Twelve Apostles South States heard that Protestants is something called the trinity. It's very interesting. Some of those Mormon criticisms of early Christianity are.

We're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own our Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

If it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, we will grant your request and We would love to hear from Mormons. Especially I can understand if some Mormons want to remain anonymous. You may do so I'm eager to hear from you.

If you Write a question or comment that is reasonably short I will read it without editing. So I won't wanna I don't want to give anyone in the impression that I am changing the words of somebody If they are writing in.

There is just a concern for brevity that however but we would love to hear from Mormons if there are any out there listening who would like to Challenge anything that our guests are saying or perhaps you just have a question or comment.

And our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're gonna be right back with Michael and dr. Lynn Kay Wilder after these messages from our sponsors.

So, please don't go. I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio. And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and occasional guest on Chris's show. Think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta my new hometown.

It is going to be a bang-up conference called the g3 Conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Baucom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference.

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Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. Our guests today are Michael and dr. Lynn Kay Wilder Co-founder of ex-mormon Christians United for Jesus and we are discussing their books.

Seven reasons. We left Mormonism if you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name. City and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, but we will respect your privacy if you care to remain anonymous. We already have a whole bunch of listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered. But before I go there, I do want to at least start on some of these seven reasons why you left the Mormon Church before we run out of time and Let me start with number one.

God is progressing and so are you. The real Christ isn't there if you could start there. That's weird because I'm looking at your list on your website unveiling Mormonism. Calm. Well, you could start with whatever you want.

I'll just say number one number two and you read what you have in front of you.

The Book of Mormon, the JST, and the Bible’s Unchanging Truth

The pearl of Egyptian which is a language that doesn't exist by Joseph Smith. From some ancient papyri the Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of supposed revelations from Jesus himself to the Mormon prophets and then the Bible is kind of an add-on.

When my son again on his his Mormon mission and Challenged his parents to read the New Testament you know that I actually went to the book of Mormon first because I knew it was most correct book on the face of the Earth and looked for those kind of in the entire book of plagiarized copy of the attitude and I remember thinking Jesus I'm going to have to go to the New Testament, but it was really iffy and so being a researcher I started actually only looking at the words of Jesus and then the words of his apostles.

Eventually kind of trusting the rest of stuff. So let me read for you. What's the book? Okay through the hands of the great and abominable church. That would be the Catholic Church. There are many plain and precious things that are taken away from the Bible.

Which is the book of the Lamb of God and because of these things which are taken out of the gospel of the Lamb and exceedingly many those are the Christians who.

Stumble yay. In so much that Satan in the articles of faith. It states that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as for Mormon to be the Word of God. You know, I'd like to go to things we believe and all this stuff.

I have never ever seen. Translated correctly. You know, I've never seen the King James Version. Is this an amazing piece of work. But with everything that we've found out with the NIV also with you become a new believer.

Coming to creation in Christ. They mean the same thing, but it's a different.

This is in the end sign a few years ago about Jesus Christ, which I already third me by. Unlike the Bobby is so tampered with the decks. You know that I now have seen ancient three doctors of copying the Jews were Immaculate at the scroll.

I think we only had a. Here we have one. Yes, in fact.

One of the great enemies of the inerrancy of Scripture these days Bart Ehrman Who was a professing Christian for years and he became an agnostic and he seeks to plant seeds of distrust in the minds of many Christians and others about the Trustworthiness of the scriptures.

He is a textual critic and he even agreed when my friend. Dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries debated him. He agreed that there is more manuscript evidence For the New Testament than there is for any other Ancient work that we have available today that that goes back that far in history.

But what. 300 plus fulfilled prophecies and Jesus more than 25. Well, I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to read an audience question here and there in between your different reasons for.

Leaving Mormonism, so let me read one of the questions that we have received from Steve from Dayton, Ohio. He says I'm active-duty military and work with and live around many Mormons. Given that Mormons often attempt to align themselves with evangelical Christianity and they often disregard Objections raised regarding the teachings of their early leaders like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young a living prophet trumps a dead one.

How specifically would you begin an evangelism conversation with a Mormon neighbor? Very good question.

Yeah, excellent. You can tear down Mission 14. I mean there are many of kind of skeletons in the historical closet our ministry to tear down. Mormons say we point Mormons to the living Orchid a Christian teaching.

Bible teachings and Mormon teachings are not just different. They're contradictory in the most major of Instances things like you've got a different God and he teaches a different way to be saved. Those are just major differences.

Yeah, they you know the one thing that Mormons because they come out of legalistic system and they just can't believe that Salvation and when we speak of salvation and exaltation So we don't get confused because Mormons will use those Terminologies confuse people so a Mormon will look at you and say yes, I believe they get in their mind.

But you're going to be saved at the one of the lowest kingdom. When Mormons say that they're truly saved or they're going then you have to be exalted and to be able to do that you and You have to do good works.

You have to do your responsibilities. I mean might as well get your credit card out and Just pour it immediately. They'll say that won't work. You've got to pay 10 to the Mormon Church.

Okay, so let me kind of finish that question. We suggest in the back of the book unveiling. We give all these shocking Bible scripts. We do not recommend hitting against there. It is the living Word of God.

That is that living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword and that it does not return. Empty we have been proven, you know. Getting just. Helping Mormons be familiar with Bible verses that keeps the exact opposite of their faith literally for 30 years.

I didn't know those verses were in the Bible and when when I Read it and then God brought it. Here's an example act 1724. God does not live in temples made by. When I read that I remember saying what I worked 10 years.

I did 20 years of genealogy to save my debt, you know. Just gently and lovingly helping Mormons be familiar with scripture. That keeps the opposite of what they teach so that you can get them curious enough to get them into the Word of God.

Another huge one for me was John 1 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word. Wait a minute. Jesus wasn't God from the beginning. He worked his way to then having to come look those things up during you look up.

God takes you to something called the JST. Joseph Smith actually went through the entire Bible and fixed all the things that were wrong with it and He did his own version of the Bible called the Joseph Smith translation.

Well Mormons don't particularly use the JST but when you're reading the Bible and something doesn't make sense. It'll often refer you to the JST. So when I looked at John 1 1 and went this is not Mormon doctrine and I looked in the footnotes.

It took me to the JST. This is how Joseph Smith changed John 1 1. He rewrote the verse. He rewrote the entire first chapter of John which changes being this is this is what John 1 1 says in the JST. In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son and the gospel was with the Word and the Word Was with the Son and the Son was with God and the Son was of God.

Changes the idea that Jesus was God from the beginning.

The Unchanging God and the Problem of Continuing Revelation

Well before I go to another listener question if you could go with your next reason for leaving Mormonism.

The next reason is that the Bible to know what for people 2 ,000 years ago and will still work for people today. So Malachi 4 you oh children of Jacob are not consumed. And it says that several times in the scriptures that God does not change The Mormons though that their God Continuing the price to their Mormon prophets which again is a problem because of what the Bible says.

John Himself said yeah.

As you look into Understanding that you know, he doesn't need to change his doctrine. Year after year of the year. I and I always like to use this example. Heard a few years ago 58 talking it in 1958 as it is in 2016 and it had been a person in the 1850 or you know 1450 and so forth.

In the LDS Church, you really can't go back reading and Teachings of the past Mormon prophet of what the church is trying to do today. I mean it'd be no way I could go listen at a general conference in 1960 or 1965 or 1970 and play that today where the church would not be totally embarrassed and the gospel found in the Bible is Consistent and we do not need to add on to it as Lynn mentioned earlier in in Hebrews.

You know one one it says in pastime God then these last days He is now spoken to us through his son and we you know Jesus Christ and now we use the teaching and we don't have to modify that so Mormonism may have to say well.

You know plague me and they go through these different. You know changing same concept we're not Christian by grace well, you know kind of you know. You know, we do temple work because we want to well.

No, you do temple work because with many Mormons and they just so well. Because I want to and I would say well, then do you have to do it? And that's what it's more of missionaries in the Mormons. There's equal misleading.

Yeah, that reminds me of a.

Documentary that I actually Participated in doing voiceover work for my friend pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah created a documentary Which is found at LDS video.

LDS video and he was bringing up in this documentary through the quotes of Mormon prophets and Their current presidents or at least 20th century presidents That contradicted each other for instance the very thing that you mentioned briefly there The prohibition against blacks and the priesthood and so on.

There were quotes that were very clear from Brigham Young That anyone could find and read that were very harsh and severe and were spoken as.

As.

Declarations of revelation they weren't his opinions like the opinions of some Moronic Baptist pastor who might be in the Ku Klux Klan or something? These were the this was the voice of a prophet allegedly Saying that blacks could not enter the priesthood and so on.

And then later President Bruce R. McConkie a 20th century President one of the Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He basically Reversed that in his speech. That is heard on the documentary where he's basically telling people just don't even worry about what anybody else said.

This is what we teach now. And that's all you got to worry about is what we teach now is that's basically a summary of what he said. That's not verbatim what he said, but you can hear exactly what he said at LDS video.

But I'm not sure if he was a president, but he was one of the 12 one of the quorum of the 12 Apostles. Bruce R. McConkie. Was he a president or just an Apostle?

Okay.

You know, I mean that you know, that's basically the general authorities and Apostles per se in the LDS Church. And you know you would listen to him. And and again he wrote a book which was given to us in 1977 October 28 and It was more just you know, I mean it this is what just read and studied it.

What do you think about Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon doctrine? And if you can't find the copy you couldn't get a copy away to somebody. Because the teachings there are so contrary now to what the LDS Church is trying to teach.

But all those things that the read one about, you know.

Black.

And skin and so forth. Now, this is in the Book of Mormon and again, you know, the the.

The Book of Mormon on Race, Temple Restrictions, and Missionary Practice

And by the way, Michael, could you read that after we return from the break. Yeah, just don't leave your plate lose your place there let's read that when you return from the break break. We have to go to a break right now.

And if you'd like to join those who have Written in already With questions for our guests. Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com and by the way, I forgot to mention Steve from Dayton, Ohio.

You have won for writing in today a copy of seven reasons. We left Mormonism. So we're gonna need your full mailing address, but guess what since you're a very first time Questioner to the program. You're also gonna get a beautiful new New American Standard Bible with a gorgeous and embossed cross on the cover.

That is compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible who sponsor the iron sharpens iron program so send us your full mailing address so we can get both of those out to you and By the way, we want to thank also Our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm that's CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm.

We want to thank them for always shipping out all of the Bibles and books that our listeners win By submitting questions to our guests and they've been a faithful supporter of iron sharpens iron and we thank them For it my shout out to Todd and Patty Jennings over at CV BBS calm.

But we're gonna be right back after these messages. So please don't go away. We're gonna be returning with more on Mormonism very shortly. I Am Chris Arns and host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine My trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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