September 19, 2016 Show with Lynn K. Wilder on “7 Reasons Why We Left Mormonism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 19th day of September 2016.

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I'm really excited about today's program. We have one guest returning, and we have another guest on for the very first time, and they happen to be husband and wife.

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And I'm speaking of Michael and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder. They are co -founders of Ex -Mormon

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Christians United for Jesus. They are co -authors of the book,

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Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism, which is our topic for today. And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Lynn, I'm welcoming you back, and Michael, I am welcoming you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Well, it's good to be here. Thank you so much. It's just a pleasure to speak with people who are excited about the gospel and who want to get the good news out.

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And, you know, as the whole program stated earlier, this is not a Mormon fashion.

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What we're just doing is trying to define what does Mormons actually teach and what does

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Biblical Christianity actually teach. And you compare the difference. And if you want to be a Mormon, that's fine.

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But what I've always said is that if you want to be Mormon, then you cannot call yourself a pure Christian.

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And that's where you have to draw a line in the sand. Yes, truth matters and truth should matter to everyone.

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And we should not allow political correctness to cloud our thinking because correcting somebody in serious error is a very high act of love and graciousness.

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Obviously, there are people who do that unlovingly. They do that with a spirit of hate and bigotry.

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They may do that out of their own arrogance and pride, but that does not necessitate those horrible qualities in order for correcting someone to be accomplished.

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And it can be accomplished with the utmost of dignity and charity and respect.

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And I know that that's what we will be hearing today on Iron Sharpens Iron from our guests. We've already had, as I mentioned, as a guest,

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Dr. Lynn K. Wilder on the program. She spoke about her newest book,

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Unveiling Grace, the story of how we found our way out of the Mormon church. She is a former tenured faculty member at Brigham Young University and a mentor to hundreds of students.

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And she is the producer of more than 50 scholarly publications and the author of four books.

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Today, we have joining us for the first time her husband, Michael. And rather than repeating the information twice by having me read it and you tell our listeners, why don't you,

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Michael, just tell our listeners a bit about yourself before we go into the seven reasons why you two left the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. Well, I'm just a humble Christian, so that's it.

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Yeah, well, you know, so people to kind of understand that when we speak about Mormonism, we actually can speak with some level of authority.

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I haven't been active in this LDS for over 30 years and do our positions, you know, my wife's position at BYU.

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I held other leadership positions and so forth, I'm only stating this not to boast or to brag, but just to state the fact that we did and do understand

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Mormonism and that we were not jack Mormons and that we really do not understand what's going on.

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So, you know, my wife and I joined the LDS Church. I held multiple leadership positions.

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I've been in multiple bishoprics in Indiana and also Utah. I served in Indiana on the

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High Council, which is a regional area over a given area, usually involving about 12 congregations of the

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LDS Church or defined as wards. Okay, the area that I was in is called the

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Indianapolis, Indiana North Stake, and that took part of Indianapolis, Carmel, up through Muncie, Indiana, and so forth.

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And so it's a pretty good area. So I served on that for like nine years. I would travel to different congregations.

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I would speak. I would represent the state president and so forth. My wife and I also worked as restricted ordinance workers in the

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Chicago Temple, which means we worked in there bringing people, doing ordinances with people for their salvation, exaltation, and so forth.

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Again, my wife was a tenured professor at Brigham Young University. To serve on these positions that I had,

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I had become a high priest, and I was made a high priest at the age of 36,

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I do believe, or 38, who knows, someplace in that. But the fact is, is that everything done in the

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LDS Church is done with authority, and to do things in the LDS Church, you have to have a certain calling and position, and, you know, to serve with the bishopric is kind of like what we define as an assistant pastor.

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To serve in the high council is to do trainings of local individuals at the local level, even involving pastors or, you know, per se, or like the bishop of the local congregation of a

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Mormon ward. So we've done it all. I've taught seminary in the

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LDS Church and so forth. So that's a real quick overview. And last time when we had

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Lynn on, she gave us a very detailed description of her conversion to Christianity from Mormonism after already being a tenured professor at BYU, one of the most prestigious of the

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Latter -day Saint colleges and universities and institutions. And to just recall some of that, she came to Christianity eventually by God using your own son,

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Micah, who was the first convert, I believe, in the family to Christianity.

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When did you, Michael, come into the mix as far as God touching your heart, making you realize, wait a minute,

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I am in the wrong religion? Well, it's quite a journey, and we have to really remember that anybody who comes out of the

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LDS Church, this is a very, very hard transition, and it's something that just doesn't happen overnight.

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And when my son came home from his mission earlier, my third son,

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Micah, and he basically stated, you know, Jesus is enough philosophy.

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I was shocked, but I still love my son, and I wasn't ready to throw him away.

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But I just assumed that he was incorrect in his understanding of the doctrine of the

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LDS Church and the Bible. So the thing that he told me and my dear wife was the fact that just go back and study the

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Bible as a child. Just be open in what you read and take away everything, all the filter of Mormonism, out of your mind.

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And since we were converts, you know, I could do that easier because I can reflect back to when

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I was a young man before I was taught everything in Mormonism. So I promised him that I would do that, and my wife did it.

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But remember, I'm a high priest. I have authority in the family.

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I'm going to teach my children correct principles. I'm going to make sure that the family stays together.

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So when I started reading the Bible, I was kind of thinking, well, I already know this.

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I've been reading this for many, many years. There's really nothing new here that I will learn, because I've been in all these leadership positions.

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I've done this. I've done this. I've studied the Book of Mormon. I've studied Dr. Cone at the seminary, but I'll do it.

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And God has a funny way of doing things, you know. When He wants you to know something,

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He will let you know it. He will open up your eyes. And so I was... probably one of the key points of my conversion process is

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I was reading one night, and my calling at this point was

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I was chairperson of the Redeem the Dead Committee. Okay, there's actually a function in the

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LDS Church called that, and what that means is that I encourage people to go to the temple.

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I spoke about the temple. I taught temple classes. I, you know, encourage people to get their temple recommends and everything else.

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So everything in the LDS Church revolves around going to the temple.

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You've got to get to the temple if you're going to live with Heavenly Father. So, you know,

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I had this calling, and I'm just kind of reading through the

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Scriptures. I'm going through, you know, Luke, and, you know,

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Luke has great stuff. You know, chapter 15 talks about the parable of the sheep and so forth, the prodigal son, which is, you know, you know, that's interesting.

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And as I read on through here, through 17, and then

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I get into 18, and even though I have read this multiple times,

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God can pick a place and a time where He's going to really identify the

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Scriptures to you. And so I'm reading through 18, and I get down, and I'm going to read this from King James version, which is what

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I was reading at the time. And it starts in verse 9, and it says, and this is Christ speaking.

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It says, and He states this parable unto certain people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others.

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Okay? So Christ goes on, and He tells a story, and He says, two men went up to the temple to pray, one a

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Pharisee and the other a Republican or tax collector, if we read it in another version.

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The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank

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Thee that I am not as other men are, extortion, unjust, adulterers, or even as a republican.

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Okay? I fast twice a week, and I give tithes of all that I possess. And when

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I was reading this, I remember how many times I have sat in... In Mormonism, after you have your regular church meeting, you break off into different groups.

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You have the women that go into what they call Relief Society. You have the young men into the young men's group of women and so forth.

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And then you have elders, and then you have high priests. And us old folks who were in leadership positions would go to high priest forums, and there we would talk and discuss and we would have a lesson.

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And I remember, and this occurred in Indiana and also in Utah, how we would speak, thank

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God we are not like as other men are, as other religions. Thank God I'm not like a

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Methodist. I know so much more than a Methodist. Thank God I'm not like the Baptist or Lutheran.

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That, you know, we have more knowledge. We've been given the fullness of the gospel. And all of a sudden, that sort of going back, it just kind of flashed when

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I read that, that I started thinking how I used to boast how I'm better than other men.

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I have more knowledge. Then it goes on here, and it says that I fast twice a week.

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Well, in Mormonism, we fast at least once a month, okay? And I get tithes of all that I possess.

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And, you know, Mormonism, you have to go before a bishop at the end of the year and say, it's called a tithing settlement, that you state publicly to the bishop that you have paid your tithing for the whole year, okay?

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And that you pay it on everything. And then I go back and start studying. I've realized this now, that under Jewish law, that why this is so important when

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Christ is teaching this, that it was not a requirement of the Jews to fast twice a week.

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You know, this guy was just saying he was more righteous. His standards are a little bit higher than just the regular

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Jews. Also, in Jewish law, you did not have to pay tithes on everything you had.

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So, this guy is also posting that I pay tithing on everything that I get, not just part of it.

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So, he's kind of really hitting the point here that he's talking to God. And again, when he's praying to God, he's praying to himself.

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He says, again, thus, you know, he stood and prayed thus with himself.

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God, I thank thee. So, he's telling God, I'm sure glad I can do these higher standards.

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I, you know, you probably should even raise your standards, because I'm far above the law that you get as the average

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Jew, okay? So, you know, this is all growing in my head very, very, very quickly. Then I'm reading on, and it says, and the publican or tax collector standing far off would not mess up so much as his eyes into heaven, but he smote upon his breast, saying,

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God be merciful to me, a sinner. And when you read that back in the

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Greek thing, it means a current sinner. Not that he was a past sinner, that he's a sinner in the past, and he's a sinner now, okay?

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Now, the whole concept of this is that when you go to the temple, as the

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Pharisee was, you know, he was righteous to stand before the temple and to boast that he had the right to be there, and this publican is way far off, wouldn't even look up and say,

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I can't, I'm a sinner, I can't even be here. And we'll talk about this later on, is that when, as a

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Mormon, when you go to the temple, you have to get a temple recommend, and that's just not given to you.

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You have to go through a series of questions to prove yourself to be worthy to enter the so -called house of the

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Lord. You have to pass this test, and so we're putting up a measurement there, just like the

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Pharisee's saying, I do all these righteous things. In my current pocket at that point when

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I'm reading it, I've got a piece of paper in my pocket that the temple recommends that says,

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Brother Wilder, you are worthy to enter into the temple. Brother Wilder, you are worthy to stand before God through your own actions and your own righteousness.

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And that's a key thing to understand, that I have earned this. This wasn't just given to me,

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I have earned this through my actions in the Eldest Church to produce, to show that I am righteous enough to enter this temple.

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So then Christ goes on and He states there, okay, so we've got the sinner standing far off, and I'm a righteous man.

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I mean, I've got the temple recommend, I'm the Pharisee in this situation, I'm doing all the right things.

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And then Christ says this, and this is what pierced my heart. Christ says,

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I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

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For everyone that exalts himself shall be cut off, okay, at the base.

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And he that humbled himself shall be exalted. So if you exalt yourself, you're going to be cut down.

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And if you humble yourself, you're going to be lifted up. And I was thinking when I read that, how can this man, who's a current sinner, be in better position than the guy who's a

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Pharisee who's living the law? And God, when I'm looking at that,

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God spoke to me and said, Brother Wilder, you, you are that Pharisee.

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You pride yourself on your actions. You pride yourself on what you do to make yourself holy, to stand before God.

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And once you understand that there are no righteous acts that you can do to stand before God, but just to come through the blood of Jesus, it's a whole different concept.

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I didn't understand that at that point. I didn't understand the doctrine of grace. But God started opening up the scriptures to me here, where I read this before, and there was no problem.

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And a lot of Mormons can read this, and they say, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. There's no problem, even though they have this pride in them.

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This time, God said, this is you.

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Michael, this is you I'm talking about. And when he does that, he started my journey, because at this point, at that point,

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God took away the veil, and he started opening up the scriptures.

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And as the more I read through the Bible, the more I saw a conflict between Mormon teaching and biblical teaching.

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And as you make this journey, you make this walk, you realize you have to come to a point and a decision where, what do

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I believe? Am I going to believe the current Mormon prophet, or am I going to read the

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Bible? Can I trust the Bible? Can I trust, you know, the Mormon prophet? And God told me directly, you trust the

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Bible. And this started my journey out. Now, it wasn't immediately, because remember, I still have a lot of pride.

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You know, I wouldn't even tell anybody this, that God is working on me. And it took me a period of probably close to a year, of where God daily was just beating me up with the

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Bible. And it sounds awful to say that, but he was drawing me out, and he started with this verse here.

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And then as I went through and started reading the epistles of Paul, and I'd go back and start reading John, he'd go back and start reading

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Matthew, and so forth, then scriptures become a lie. And when they become a lie, you can't live a lie.

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That's my story. Well, providentially, my mother made it clear to me on her deathbed that she believed in the true gospel of Jesus Christ by referring to that same text in Luke 18, the parable of the

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Pharisee and the tax collector, that was used by God to open your eyes.

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My mom was a lifelong, very dedicated Roman Catholic. And when she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and we were told that she had six months to live,

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I, being a born -again believer and evangelical Protestant, had concerns about if she was trusting in anything but Christ and his finished work on the cross.

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My mother was always a very godly woman, and put me to shame, even when

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I was a born -again Christian, in regard to her humility, her sacrificial behavior, her selflessness.

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And I could go on and on about my mother. And therefore, it was always somewhat awkward for me to evangelize her, because in many ways she was far superior to me in manners of life.

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But I had to ask her on her deathbed. I said, Mom, you know, your children don't have anything to complain about you.

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We had a life filled with wonderful deeds and works. You are a very religious woman.

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Do you think any of that is helping you achieve heaven? And she said, no. And I said, why is that?

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And she said, well, that would be like that religious leader who went into the temple, and when he prayed, he bragged about all the wonderful things he did, and he bragged about all the horrible things he did not do.

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And there was a tax collector in that temple who beat his breast, bowed his head, and said,

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Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. And Jesus said it was that tax collector that was saved.

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And I'm like that tax collector, Chris. I know that there's nothing in me that would enable me to enter heaven, that it's all because Jesus died for me.

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I almost fell off my chair when she said that, because this was not coached. You know, my mother was not a voracious reader of the

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Bible as most Roman Catholics are not, and even Roman Catholic apologists will tell you this, that most

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Roman Catholics hardly ever pick up the Bible. And because that was the way, especially the older Catholics, that's the way they were instructed.

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You leave that stuff up to the priest so he could teach you what really is meant to be understood in the

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Bible. You don't really need to do this on your own. In fact, you probably shouldn't. Now, of course, there are a lot of changes in the way that the

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Roman Catholic Church presents these things since Vatican II and in our modern age, but the facts are that they still have a dogma that teaches a works righteousness.

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But anyway, I just wanted to bring that up because it was a remarkable similarity, and you two were from entirely different religions, and it was just a blessing from the

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Lord to hear my mom say those things. Yeah, well that's wonderful to hear that, but God, it's amazing how

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God can open up these verses to you. I remember just last year, we were speaking at a church, and we were selling books, and again, you know, a lot of people, there's a lot of Christians out there that get locked into legalism, and it's not just the

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Mormons. You have the Jehovah Witnesses, which are way off to begin with, but you have, you know, independent

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Baptist churches, and you have this, and you have all these little groups that can become kind of legalistic.

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They just kind of say, well, you've got to do this, this, this, or this. And I remember this lady came up to me, and she actually had some tears in her eyes, and she told me this book, and she says, you know,

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I've been a very active Roman Catholic all my life, and I never understood the doctrine of grace, and this book has changed me to realize it's not the

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Catholic Church that saves me, it is Jesus alone that saves me.

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And that's, you know, that's a great, great understanding, because when you become a

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Christian, as you well know, you have to put away the concept of belonging to a congregation.

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It's okay to say you're a Baptist or Methodist, but you must be a Christian first, okay? That's a key thing.

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And as my son always says in his presentation, it's not about the name that's above the door of a church, it's about the name above all names.

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I mean, you look at it that way, you know, you can have a congregation that will help you in your walk, but, you know, if I have to become a

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Baptist to truly be saved, there's a problem there. If I have to become a Catholic to become truly saved, there's a problem there.

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If I have to become a Mormon to be truly saved, which is what the Mormons teach, you have to become a

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Mormon, you have to be baptized with authority to actually be able to live in the presence of God, you've got a huge problem, because this contradicts everything that Christ taught in the

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New Testament. This actually contradicts everything in the Old Testament. Yeah, we're going to be going into seven reasons why what you said is true in a moment, but it is interesting that there has been a radical change in public relations in the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, as I believe I may have shared with your wife during our last interview, or perhaps it was another guest, but not long ago here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I encountered a group of young Mormons walking down the street, and I knew right away they were

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Mormons because of their white shirts, black ties, and the badges on their pockets, and I called over to them, asked them if they were

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Mormons, they confirmed that they were, and we had a brief chat, and it was an entirely different public relations pitch that I received from them than I received in the 1980s in my living room when a couple of Mormon missionaries came to my home at my request after I called a toll -free number on TV to get a book of Mormon, and I was a new

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Christian, and I basically just wanted to evangelize them, but these young Mormons that I just recently encountered, the first thing out of their mouths to me were, you probably heard we think that we're the only true religion, but that's not true.

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We're just another group of Christians just like you, and I remember thinking to myself, my, that's a very foreign approach to what

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I've ever heard from a Mormon before, and I basically replied to them that this,

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I hope you know that this, what you're saying right now is a very novel thing in your church's history, that to say such a thing was never uttered by Mormons until probably the last handful of years.

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I mean, this is either a change in teaching or it's actually demonstrating that they're more concerned over winning you over than your eternal soul, isn't this?

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Well, you know, in their scriptures, this is right from Doctrine and Covenants.

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I definitely agree that their public relations faith is sounding more

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Christian, using Christian words, but I can tell you not one of those words has the same meaning for Biblical Christians as it does for Mormons.

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This is Doctrine and Covenants 130, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with which

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I, the Lord, am well pleased, and there are other scriptures that say similar.

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So, they may say that to the outside world, but their

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LDS .org claims that their scriptures are pure truth and utterly reliable.

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So, the conundrum that they're in right now is that their pure truth and utterly reliable extra -Biblical

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Mormon scriptures often contradict the Bible, and that's one instance right there.

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They really do believe they are the one true church. It also says in the Book of Mormon, you know, that there was a great apostasy after the 12 apostles died, and then this apostate church, the

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Catholic church and the Protestant churches that rose up, took plain and precious things out of the

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Bible. They created something called the Trinity at the Council of Nicaea.

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It's very interesting. Some of those Mormon criticisms of early Christianity are very similar to what atheists say.

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Huh. Well, we're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. If it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, we will grant your request, and we would love to hear from Mormons, especially

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I can understand if some Mormons want to remain anonymous. You may do so. I'm eager to hear from you.

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If you write a question or comment that is reasonably short,

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I will read it without editing, so I don't want to give anyone the impression that I am changing the words of somebody if they are writing in.

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There is just a concern for brevity, however, but we would love to hear from Mormons if there are any out there listening who would like to challenge anything that our guests are saying, or perhaps you just have a question or comment, and our email address again is chrizarnsen at gmail .com,

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chrizarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we're going to be right back with Michael and Dr.

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Lynn K. Wilder after these messages from our sponsors, so please don't go away.

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35:56

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. Our guests today are Michael and Dr.

36:02

Lynn K. Wilder, co -founder of Ex -Mormon Christians United for Jesus, and we are discussing their book,

36:09

Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

36:16

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

36:25

USA, but we will respect your privacy if you care to remain anonymous. We already have a whole bunch of listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but before I go there,

36:36

I do want to at least start on some of these seven reasons why you left the

36:41

Mormon Church before we run out of time, and let me start with number one.

36:47

God is progressing and so are you. The real Christ isn't there.

36:54

If you could start there. Um, in my book, the first one says the

37:01

Book of Mormon is the most proactive book on the earth. That's weird because I'm looking at your list on your website, unveilingmormonism .com.

37:14

Well, you can start with whatever you want. I'll just say number one, number two, and you read what you have in front of you.

37:24

All right. Well, the first one is that the Book of Mormon is the most correct, and we have actually three extra biblical scriptures that are supposed to be perfect, and yet the

37:38

Bible is not reliable, sometimes mistranslated, they say.

37:44

The Book of Mormon is supposed to be the most correct book on the face of the earth. The Pearl of Great Pride was supposedly translated from Reformed Egyptian, which is a language that doesn't exist, by Joseph Smith from some ancient papyri.

38:02

The Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of supposed revelations from Jesus himself to the

38:09

Mormon prophets, and then the Bible is kind of an add -on, but we didn't trust it.

38:16

So literally, when my son got born again on his Mormon mission and challenged his parents to read the

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New Testament, do you know that I actually went to the Book of Mormon first, because I knew it was the most correct book on the face of the earth, and looked for those kind of red -letter words of Christ?

38:36

Because I thought, if I want to learn truth, I'm going to look for the words of Christ. In the entire

38:42

Book of Mormon, the supposedly direct words of Christ are only in one little place in 3

38:49

Nephi, and it actually is a plagiarized copy of the

38:54

Beatitudes right out of Matthew 5. And I remember thinking, wow, if I'm going to hear the words of Jesus, I'm going to have to go to the

39:05

New Testament. But of course, I was really iffy. And so being a researcher,

39:12

I would only go to the primary source. I started actually only looking at the words of Jesus, and then the words of the

39:19

Apostles. No, because that's a secondary source, and then eventually kind of trusting the rest of stuff.

39:27

But let me read for you what the Book of Mormon says about the Bible. This is very scary.

39:35

It says, "...after the book," which means the Bible, "...had gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church," that would be the

39:45

Catholic Church, "...there are many plain and precious things that are taken away from the

39:50

Bible, which is the book of the Lamb of God. And because of these things which are taken out of the gospel of the

39:58

Lamb, and exceedingly many," those are the Christians, "...do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan has great power over them."

40:09

That was what I was taught as a Mormon about the Christians. What's interesting in the

40:16

Articles of Faith, okay, so we're going to look at another, you know, scripture.

40:23

This is in their scriptures. In the Articles of Faith, it states that we believe the

40:29

Bible to be the Word of God, as far as translated correctly. We also believe the

40:34

Book of Mormon to be the Word of God, but there's no qualifier for it. And that'd be interesting, you know,

40:40

I'd like to go to different Christian church sites, and they'd say, these are the things we believe, and all this stuff.

40:49

I have never, I've looked at hundreds of I have never, ever seen a

40:54

Christian church put up on their site, we believe the Bible to be the Word of God, as far as it's translated correctly.

41:01

You know, I've never seen that. Now, it's people's interpretation that causes problems, but the

41:07

Bible itself, I mean, the King James Version is just an amazing piece of work, but with everything that we've found out, with the

41:14

NIV, also with the Ecclesiastical Version, all the other versions, their doctrine is the same.

41:20

You know, I mean, like, you can read King James, and Paul talks about, once you become a new believer, the

41:26

King James would say, I've become a new creature in Christ. Well, that kind of sounds strange, if you say that out loud.

41:33

So, you read one of the English Standard Version, it would say, you've now become a new creation in Christ. They mean the same thing, but it's just different words.

41:41

But that's got another factor here. Well, this is actually out of the

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Ensign. The Mormons get a magazine every month with kind of direction from their

41:54

General Authorities in it. This was in the Ensign a few years ago about the

41:59

Bible. It says, well, first of all, it says, Book of Mormon is the keystone of our witness of Jesus Christ, which

42:06

I thought was interesting, because the only part with Christ's words is that little part in 3rd

42:12

Nephi. Unlike the Bible, which has through generations of copies, translators and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text.

42:24

That is what they taught us. And do you know that I now have seen ancient

42:32

Jewish Torahs and been taught that if three jots or tittles are out of place, after a year's worth of copying, they throw the whole thing away.

42:47

I mean, literally, the Jews were immaculate in the way that they kept their word.

42:53

And of course, when we found the Isaiah Scroll and the Dead Sea Scroll, I think we only had a scroll from 900, and here we have one now from before Christ, so a thousand years, and they were the same.

43:10

The Bible is pretty reliable. Yes, in fact, one of the great enemies of the inerrancy of Scripture these days,

43:21

Bart Ehrman, who was a professing Christian for years, and he became an agnostic, and he seeks to plant seeds of distrust in the minds of many

43:35

Christians and others about the trustworthiness of the Scriptures.

43:40

He is a textual critic, and he even agreed when my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries debated him, he agreed that there is more manuscript evidence for the

43:53

New Testament than there is for any other ancient work that we have available today that goes back that far in history.

44:05

Now, 5800 plus Greek manuscripts alone, if you look for Syriac and Aramaic and others, you're looking at a lot of original manuscripts, so if I have 800 copies of one passage,

44:20

I can see if somebody miscopied something. You know, one of the things that occurred to me when

44:26

I came to Jesus is, it's as if this God wants people to find him.

44:32

The evidence for what he's seeking is overwhelming. The evidence for the

44:38

Bible is just overwhelming. 300 plus fulfilled prophecies in Jesus, more than 25 ,000 archaeological seeds that prove that people placed things.

44:51

Two nights ago at dinner, I had a discussion with a returned Mormon missionary, and I was trying to talk to him about zero evidence for the

45:02

Book of Mormon and all this overwhelming evidence for the Bible. Well, I think what

45:10

I'm going to do is I'm going to read an audience question here and there in between your different reasons for leaving

45:17

Mormonism. So let me read one of the questions that we have received from Steve from Dayton, Ohio.

45:25

He says, I'm active duty military and work with and live around many

45:30

Mormons. Given that Mormons often attempt to align themselves with evangelical Christianity, and they often disregard objections raised regarding the teachings of their early leaders like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, a living prophet trumps a dead one, how specifically would you begin an evangelism conversation with a

45:50

Mormon neighbor? Very good question. Yeah, excellent question.

45:57

I can tell you that you can tear down a Mormon's faith by showing them that Joseph Smith had all these polygamous wives, that he married a wife and then sent those men on missions, that he married a woman as young as 14.

46:15

I mean, there are many kinds of skeletons in the historical closet. Our ministry does not use those things to tear down Mormons' faith.

46:26

We point Mormons to the living Word of God. Both my husband, myself, our entire family read the

46:37

Bible, and the Bible itself convicted us and showed us that Christian teachings,

46:46

Bible teachings, and Mormon teachings are not just different, they're contradictory in the most major of instances.

46:55

Things like, you've got a different God and He teaches a different way to be saved.

47:01

Those are just major differences. Yeah, you know, the one thing that Mormons, because they come out of the legalistic system, and they just can't believe that salvation, and when we speak of salvation, we're going to time together salvation and exaltation so we don't get confused, because Mormons will use those terminologies to confuse people.

47:23

So, a Mormon will look at you and say, yes, I believe you are saved, but then they're thinking in their mind, but you're going to be saved at the one of the lowest kingdoms.

47:32

When Mormons say that they're truly saved, or they're going to live with Heavenly Father, okay, then you have to be exalted, and to be able to do that, you have to go to the temple, and you have to do good works, you have to do your responsibilities, you've got to pay your 10 percent tithes to the

47:50

Mormon Church. I mean, you might as well get your credit card out, and just, you know, those are things that are requirements.

47:57

Well, what if I'm in the LDS Church, and I want to say, well, I'm going to give 5 percent to the

48:03

LDS Church, and 20 percent to the poor and needy? They'll say, that won't work.

48:08

You've got to pay 10 percent to the Mormon Church. Okay, so let me kind of finish that question.

48:16

We suggest, in the back of the book, Unveiling Grace, but also in the book, we're talking about seven reasons.

48:23

We give all these doctrinal differences between Bible Scripture and Mormon Scripture.

48:29

We do not recommend hitting against their stuff, but it is the living

48:35

Word of God that is living and active and sharper than any two -edged sword, and that it does not return empty.

48:44

We have been proven, you know, God has promised us that. So, getting, just helping

48:53

Mormons be familiar with Bible verses that keeps the exact opposite of their faith.

48:59

Literally, for 30 years, I didn't know those verses were in the Bible, and when

49:04

I read it, and then God brought my attention, then all of a sudden,

49:11

I'm curious. So, here's an example, Acts 17, 24. God does not live in temples made by human hands.

49:20

When I read that, I remember saying, what? I worked in the Chicago Temple for 10 years.

49:26

I did 20 years of genealogy to save my debt. You know, just gently and lovingly helping

49:33

Mormons be familiar with Scripture that are very, that keeps the opposite of what they teach, so that you can get them curious enough to get them into the

49:43

Word of God. Another huge one for me was John 1, 1.

49:49

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And I went, wait a minute,

49:54

Jesus wasn't God from the beginning. He worked His way to Godhood, and then having to kind of, you know, look those things up.

50:05

So, if you go to Mormon Scripture, and you look up John 1, 1, there will be a footnote that takes you to something called the

50:14

JST. Joseph Smith, actually, went through the entire Bible and fixed all the things that were wrong with it, and he did his own version of the

50:25

Bible called the Joseph Smith Translation. Well, Mormons don't particularly use the

50:30

JST, but when you're reading the Bible and something doesn't make sense, it'll often refer you to the

50:38

JST. So, when I looked at John 1, 1, and went, this is not Mormon doctrine, and I looked in the footnotes that took me to the

50:46

JST, this is how Joseph Smith changed John 1, 1.

50:52

He rewrote the verse. He rewrote the entire first chapter of John, which changes the entire nature of God.

50:59

This is what John 1, 1 says in the JST. In the beginning was the

51:05

Gospel preached through the Son, and the Gospel was with the Word, and the

51:10

Word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.

51:16

That completely changes the idea that Jesus was God from the beginning. Well, before I go to another listener question, if you could go with your next reason for leaving

51:29

Mormonism. The next reason is that the

51:35

Bible is very clear that God does not change. So, God's smart enough, the

51:42

God of the Bible is smart enough to know what's true for all time, and what worked for people 2 ,000 years ago, and will still work for people today.

51:53

So, Malachi 3, 6 says, I the Lord do not change, therefore you,

51:59

O children of Jacob, are not consumed. And it says that several times in the scriptures, that God does not change.

52:07

The Mormons, though, are very pleased with the fact that their God kind of updates with the culture, and with the times, and that there's this continuing supposed revelation from Jesus Christ to their

52:22

Mormon prophets. Which, again, is a problem because of what the Bible says. The Bible says the prophets were until John, Jesus himself said that, and he's talking about John the

52:35

Baptist. So, how we have prophets today? Not needed. Yeah, as you look into understanding that, you know,

52:49

God is consistent. He doesn't need to change his doctrine year after year after year.

52:57

And I always like to use this example. There was a sermon I heard a few years ago by Bill Graham, 1958, talking about the cross, the blood on the cross.

53:10

And that sermon was as pertinent in 1958 as it is in 2016.

53:15

And it has been as pertinent in the 1850s or, you know, 1450s and so forth. In the

53:21

LDS Church, you really can't go back and look at readings and teachings of the past Mormon prophets, because they're so out of step of what the

53:32

Church is trying to do today. I mean, there'd be no way I could go listen at a general conference in 1960 or 1965 or 1970 and play that today, where the

53:43

Church would not be totally embarrassed by the concept. So, the gospel itself has to be consistent.

53:50

And the gospel found in the Bible is consistent, and we do not need to add on to it.

53:56

As Lynn mentioned earlier, in Hebrews, you know, 1 -1, it says, in past time,

54:02

God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days,

54:08

He has now spoken to us through His Son, and we, you know, Jesus Christ, and now we use the teaching, and we don't have to modify that.

54:18

So, Mormonism may have to say, well, you know, plaguing was allowed, not allowed. You know, blacks could not have the priesthood, blacks have the priesthood, and they go through these different, you know, changing things, concepts, we're not

54:31

Christians. Well, we really are Christians. Are you saved by grace? Well, you know, kind of, you know, but you're saved, but you have to add on to it.

54:40

You know, we do Temple works because we want to. Well, no, you do Temple works because you have to in a

54:46

Mormon Church. And I've talked with many Mormons, and they just say, well, I know I'm saved, but I just do the

54:53

Temple works. I go to the Temple to do that because I want to. And I would say, well, then, do you have to do that to live with Heavenly Father?

55:02

And once I would pin them down, they would say, yes, we have to do it. And that's what it takes in the Mormon Scripture. So, whatever the

55:08

Mormon missionaries are teaching today, the new videos on Mormon .org

55:15

about the Bible, that Christians and Mormons are equal, that's very misleading, because we have to go by what the

55:23

Scriptures say, what the Bible says, what the Book of Mormon says, what the Doctrine and Covenants says, and so forth.

55:28

Yeah, that reminds me of a documentary that I actually participated in doing voiceover work for.

55:36

My friend, Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah, created a documentary, which is found at lds .video.

55:49

And he was bringing up in this documentary, through the quotes of Mormon prophets and their current presidents, or at least 20th century presidents, that contradicted each other.

56:04

For instance, the very thing that you mentioned briefly there, the prohibition against blacks in the priesthood, and so on.

56:12

There were quotes that were very clear from Brigham Young that anyone could find and read that were very harsh and severe, and were spoken as declarations of revelation.

56:27

They weren't his opinions, like the opinions of some moronic

56:32

Baptist pastor who might be in the Ku Klux Klan, or something. This was the voice of a prophet, allegedly, saying that blacks could not enter the priesthood, and so on.

56:45

And then later, President Bruce R. McConkie, a 20th century president, one of the apostles of the

56:56

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, he basically reversed that in his speech that is heard on the documentary, where he's basically telling people, just don't even worry about what anybody else said.

57:12

This is what we teach now, and that's all you got to worry about is what we teach now. That's basically a summary of what he said.

57:19

That's not verbatim what he said, but you can hear exactly what he said at lds .video. I'm not sure if he was a president, but he was one of the quorum of the

57:28

Twelve Apostles, Bruce R. McConkie. Was he a president or just an apostle?

57:34

He was an apostle. He was known as the scholar of all the apostles.

57:42

When Bruce R. McConkie spoke at General Conference, everybody listened. Back in my old days, he was my favorite apostle.

57:53

If I had apostle trading cards, I just wanted to make sure I had a trading card of five or six of Bruce R.

58:01

McConkie. Basically, the General Authorities and apostles are rock stars, per se, in the

58:08

LDS Church. You would listen to him. Again, he wrote a book which was given to us at our baptism in 1977,

58:20

October 28. It was Mormon doctrine. This is what discreet study did.

58:29

Now, you would go up to these LDS missionaries, and you'd say, what do you think about Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon doctrine?

58:36

They'd go, what? I've never heard of that. It was pushed heavily, but now it's just disappeared.

58:44

It's like another apostle. That was when we were apostles, Dr. W. Campbell, the miracle of forgiveness.

58:53

You couldn't even find a copy. You couldn't even give a copy away to somebody, because the teachings there are so contrary now to what the

58:59

LDS Church is trying to teach. All those things that they taught in Mormon doctrine, in the miracle of forgiveness, are still in the

59:09

Mormon scripture. Let's just read one about the black skin and so forth.

59:16

Now, this is in the Book of Mormon. Again, the current Mormon apologist said, well, that happened a long time ago.

59:23

By the way, Michael, could you read that after we return from the break? Yeah, we'll read that. Just don't lose your place there.

59:30

Let's read that when you return from the break. We have to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join those who have written in already with questions for our guests, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

59:44

chrisarnson at gmail .com. By the way, I forgot to mention, Steve from Dayton, Ohio, you have won, for writing in today, a copy of Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism.

59:56

We're going to need your full mailing address. But guess what? Since you're a very first -time questioner to the program, you're also going to get a beautiful new

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New American Standard Bible with a gorgeous embossed cross on the cover.

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That is compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible who sponsor the

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Iron Sharpens Iron program. So send us your full mailing address so we can get both of those out to you.

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By the way, we want to thank also our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

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That's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

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We want to thank them for always shipping out all of the Bibles and books that our listeners win by submitting questions to our guests.

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They've been a faithful supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron, and we thank them for it. My shout out to Todd and Patty Jennings over at CVBBS .com.

01:01:00

But we're going to be right back after these messages, so please don't go away. We're going to be returning with more on Mormonism very shortly.

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01:05:04

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guests today for the full two hours have been and will continue to be

01:05:13

Michael and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, co -founders of Ex -Mormon Christians United for Jesus.

01:05:19

We are discussing one of their books, Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:05:29

And before you actually read from the Mormon texts about their views, at least prior to the 20th century of the

01:05:41

African -American race, I wanted to quickly read a listener's question because I don't want to steal his thunder.

01:05:48

It actually is directly related to your reading. Peter in El Sobrante, California says, there are a lot of Mormons in my area.

01:06:01

I have never seen an African -American who is a Mormon. It seems most Mormons are either white or Asian.

01:06:08

Is that true? Well, now you can explain why he hardly ever sees an

01:06:14

African -American Mormon. Not to say that they don't exist. I know that they do exist, including Gladys Knight. But if you could respond to Peter.

01:06:24

Certainly. In Utah County, where Provo is,

01:06:32

Brigham Young University is, the percentage of African -Americans is less than one -half of one percent.

01:06:44

And no, there aren't a lot of African -Americans or Africans even necessarily in the

01:06:52

Mormon Church because of these teachings. But the ones who do join are made celebrities.

01:06:59

I actually have been talking with an African -American who joined the Mormon Church a couple years ago in Seattle.

01:07:07

He knows it's not true, but you know what? He's having a really hard time getting extricated from the people and from all of the love he receives.

01:07:17

He says, if I don't show up for sacrament, I've got 15 emails and 20 texts, you know, where are you?

01:07:25

He told me last year that he had spoken in sacrament meeting eight times already that year, and then he was asked to speak in state conference.

01:07:36

So, and I know if you see those I'm a Mormon videos, they often pull out the ethnically diverse folks to make it look as if the church is very diverse.

01:07:47

But diversity is a very small percentage of the church. Among general authorities, there's never been a member of the

01:07:56

Twelve Apostles that wasn't white and also Mormon prophet. Okay, Michael, you were going to read something directly from the,

01:08:05

I can't remember which Mormon text that you were going to read from, but it was about the

01:08:11

African -American race. Yes, again, the issue is that these are still their teachings.

01:08:24

There are 26 scriptures in the Book of Mormon and in the Pearl of Great Pride that say that dark skin is a curse, and so here's part of that.

01:08:36

This is from 2 Nephi 521 in the Book of Mormon, and he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing because of their iniquity.

01:08:49

For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that means

01:08:54

God, that they had become like unto flint. Wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the

01:09:06

Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the

01:09:12

Lord God, I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto my people, save they shall repent of their iniquity, and cursed shall be the seed of him that mixes with their seed.

01:09:25

For they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done."

01:09:30

It actually says in the Book of Mormon that there was a group of evil people, the

01:09:38

Lamanites, God had turned their skin dark because they were evil, and they decided to become righteous, and when they did, it says in the

01:09:47

Book of Mormon, their skin turned from dark to white. So, those teachings are still scriptural.

01:09:55

They consider their scriptures directly from Jesus to Joseph Smith. So, that's the conundrum they're in.

01:10:03

If they don't throw out these scriptural teachings on polygamy and racism, and man can become a god, they certainly cannot be considered within the body of Christ.

01:10:17

And Peter from El Sobrante, California also asks, Why do

01:10:23

Mormons travel in pairs, and why do they ride bikes and dress up formally when they go out?

01:10:30

I think there's a lot of wisdom, actually, in traveling in pairs, but if you could respond to that. The traveling in pairs is to keep them safe, and, you know, in case somebody yells, this person raped me, you've always got a companion there as kind of a witness.

01:10:49

So, certainly it's a safety thing. They're not supposed to be away from their companion 24 -7 when they're on their mission, unless they're in the bathroom.

01:10:58

So, that's how close they stick. And the other question was about the bicycles, oh, the dress.

01:11:06

You want to answer that, Hunt? Yeah, it's just, everything in the

01:11:12

LDS Church is about reverence, and they define reverence as having a white shirt and tie on.

01:11:20

And so, when you go to an LDS meeting, you know, today, even today, you will see most of the men in white shirts and ties.

01:11:30

And, you know, when I was in a leadership position, that's the way it would always be. And sometimes,

01:11:36

I'd be in a meeting, I'd come in from, you know, work, and I may have a pink shirt on instead of a white shirt, and they used to tease me.

01:11:44

I think a lot of Baptists would tease you about that, too. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people.

01:11:50

And again, you know, it's just that, you know, Greta Wilder would come to these meetings, you need to choose the white, you know.

01:11:58

There's a saying in Mormon, it's called, choose the right. So, they would say, choose the white, which means I'm supposed to wear a white shirt.

01:12:04

But that was a standard procedure. Like, when the young men would pass sacrament meetings, they would always have to have white shirts and ties.

01:12:14

So, it's just a protocol in the LDS Church. And I think for the missionaries, it helps everyone know that those are

01:12:20

Mormon missionaries, that identifies them, you know, as Mormon missionaries. And what about the bicycle question that he had?

01:12:27

He was just wondering why they ride bicycles. It's just a quick way of getting around. Some places, they drive cars.

01:12:34

So, some places, they just walk. So, if they can maneuver around in a city and it's halfway safe, they'll ride bicycles, because they're going to be stopping, talking to people on the sidewalk.

01:12:46

They'll be going to a neighborhood, they'll park their bike, and then they'll walk the neighborhood.

01:12:53

And again, the LDS Church is all about, you know, trying to save money. So, it's cheaper to have the guys ride bikes than it is to drive cars.

01:13:02

But there will be people in a given area that have cars that will be Mormon missions, but they're special.

01:13:09

Yeah, so it has nothing to do with the Schwinn Corporation being owned by Mormons. And obviously, there are things that Mormons may be doing that are completely acceptable, and even may have a lot of wisdom behind them, strategical things, and things that don't conflict with Scripture.

01:13:28

So, we can't criticize everything they do. But thank you, Peter. And by the way, since you are also a first -time questioner to ever send a question into Iron Sharpens Iron, you're not only going to get a free copy of the book that we have been addressing,

01:13:46

Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism, but you're also getting a free beautiful New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

01:13:54

NASB. But we need your full mailing address, so please email that to us as soon as you can.

01:14:02

If you could also give us, I believe we're up to number three, the third reason you left

01:14:09

Mormonism. Okay, that one is where we originally started when you asked the first question,

01:14:16

God is progressing and so are you. And in Mormonism, everything is taught about eternal progression.

01:14:25

So, when I joined the LDS Church, the first thing I had to do was to be a

01:14:31

Teotihuacan priesthood. Then the next thing I had to do was become a Melchizedek priesthood holder.

01:14:37

Then the next thing I had to do was to take my wife to the temple to be sealed for all time and eternity.

01:14:43

The next thing was to be faithful until the very end. And you just start this progression, and they teach the concept of eternal progression.

01:14:52

So, as I progress, also God the Father is progressing, too. And has

01:14:58

God the Father always been God? No, this is a teaching from Joseph Smith that He has worked

01:15:05

Himself to Godhood. Now, Mormons don't like to talk about that, and they just say, well, we just believe in Heavenly Father.

01:15:12

But their core belief is that, you know, you have to progress. And so, you know,

01:15:19

Jesus has progressed. You know, Jesus was not always God. Jesus is a byproduct of a

01:15:25

Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. And, you know, when you start to talk about it, again, this is in their scriptures.

01:15:32

This is what's taught. Once you join the Mormon Church and you start getting into deeper doctrinal issues, you are taught that you are born as a spirit being.

01:15:44

So, in other words, before we came to the earth, we were spirit children in pre -existence, okay, of Heavenly Father and a

01:15:52

Heavenly Mother, or Mother, we really don't know. But we'll keep it simple at this point, just say

01:15:59

Mother. And so, Jesus is the firstborn of our Heavenly Parents.

01:16:05

And Satan is also born of our Heavenly Parents. And so, I am a brother of Jesus as much as I am a brother of Satan.

01:16:14

Now, these are not Christian concepts, okay? So, what it does, it puts Jesus in the mode that He is a created being.

01:16:24

So, if we don't even get into the doctrine of where did Heavenly Father come from, we do know from easily in Mormon scriptures that Jesus is a created being, and He has come here, and so forth.

01:16:35

So, nothing is created in Mormonism. Everything's always organized, even the creation itself.

01:16:41

You know, the Bible says, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Well, pure Mormon teachings in the temple says that God, or Elohim, organized, okay?

01:16:53

And He gave those instructions to Jesus to organize. Nothing's created out of nothing.

01:16:59

It's always organized. So, it's a different concept of thinking. So, Jesus is, you know, everything is, you're trying to get there.

01:17:09

So, if I would do everything correctly, then I could eventually work myself to Godhood.

01:17:16

That I would become a God and have my own world, okay, or earth, or whatever you want to call it.

01:17:23

And then, you know, I could create spirit children with my wife, and they would populate the earth, and the whole cycle starts over, and over, and over again.

01:17:32

This is the basic core belief of Mormonism. So, you're progressing.

01:17:39

Well, thank you very much for that question. And we, let's see, we have another question here from Kathleen in San Diego, California, who is also a first -time questioner on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:17:58

And, oh, she's actually, now that I'm reading this, she is going to be my guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Wednesday, the 9th of November.

01:18:10

Wednesday, the 9th of November. And I may be butchering her last name, so please forgive me.

01:18:18

Kathleen Milanakos from San Diego, California. She says, and the reason

01:18:25

I'm announcing her last name is because she is going to be a guest on the program. She says,

01:18:31

I know Lynn, and I think very highly of her. Ask her if she knows that my book is now available.

01:18:39

And it's, you can purchase it through Sandra Tanner's ministry, Utah Lighthouse Ministry.

01:18:46

That's utlm .org. And anyone who wants to know what really happened in early

01:18:52

Mormonism would be interested in this book, Secret Combinations, were condemned in the

01:19:00

Book of Mormon, but early Mormonism was a secret combination of its own. And she wants you to know that she has started a questioning

01:19:07

Mormonism group in San Diego, California, and that one gal that comes to the group was really helped to come out of Mormonism by your book,

01:19:18

Lynn. So that is not a question, but comments from Kathleen Milanakos, who will be our guest on November the 9th.

01:19:30

Wonderful. We'll be in Salt Lake tomorrow, actually, and we're speaking at a conference with Sandra, Eagle Christian Church in Eagle, Idaho.

01:19:43

Huge Mormonism conference. They're expecting perhaps thousands. Sandra Tanner will be there.

01:19:50

Bill McKeever with Mormonism Research Ministry will be there. John Wallace wrote the book starting at the finish line, and then my husband

01:20:00

Michael and myself, the Wilders, will be speaking. We named the conference

01:20:06

One Greater Than the Temple is Here, and it'll be

01:20:11

October 7th through 9th in Eagle, Idaho. Great.

01:20:17

And by the way, did I pronounce her name correctly, Milanakos? I do not know.

01:20:25

I've only seen it in writing. All right. Well, guess what, Kathleen from San Diego?

01:20:32

You are also getting a free copy of our guest's book, and since you are a very first -time submitter of a comment to Iron Sharpens Iron, you are going to be getting also a free

01:20:48

New American Standard Bible. I also need your full mailing address there in San Diego, however, so send that to us so we can get those both out to you.

01:20:59

I guess we are up to, is it number four now? The fourth reason for leaving the

01:21:05

Mormon Church? Yes. Well, yeah, before we go on, I want to do a quote by Lorenzo Snow that was done.

01:21:15

He was the prophet around the 1890s and 1900s and so forth, and he personally knew

01:21:23

Joseph Smith, and he came up with a saying, and Joseph Smith said that this was a revelation given to him, and this is the correct saying.

01:21:32

The church, the Eliotist Church, kind of doesn't talk about this, but it's every, you know, when we were in the

01:21:40

Eliotist Church, it was just a standard saying, but this is what Lorenzo Snow says. He says, as man is,

01:21:47

God once was. As God is, as man may be or man may become, and that's a huge concept, and you think, as man is,

01:21:57

God once was, okay, and as God is, man may be. Now, that's the whole concept of eternal progression, and that's what was taught by Joseph Smith very young and all the way up through even through today.

01:22:11

They teach this concept of, you know, this is why you need to go to the temple. This is why you have to be sealed in the temple, because you cannot progress without that.

01:22:21

Okay, next part. Okay, fourth reason has to do with the fact that the

01:22:29

Bible is clear. It repeats its message over and over. It says, if Jesus and Heavenly Father and the

01:22:37

Holy Ghost want people to be saved, you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, period, alone.

01:22:46

There is nothing you can do to add to the work that Jesus has already done on the cross.

01:22:53

However, in Mormonism, if you want eternal life, they call it exaltation, it must be earned.

01:23:02

You earn it, and it requires lots of work. Things like paying tithing regularly, having a

01:23:12

Mormon calling, and being, you know, reliable with your calling, believing in Joseph Smith, living a health code they call the

01:23:27

Word of Wisdom. Oh, what else, Mike? Attending church regularly, and the list just goes on and on.

01:23:36

Paying tithing is the most important one, so that's the key thing. But, you know, the whole concept is that you have to go through a series of events, okay?

01:23:49

So, in Mormonism, we have what we call general salvation that's taught this, that Mormons teach that just because we're here on the earth, which means we were somewhat righteous in the pre -existence to even get here to the earth, that through the

01:24:08

Atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind is saved to at least some kingdom, okay?

01:24:14

So, you're not cast out into outer darkness or anything like that. You are saved. You don't have to work.

01:24:20

You just are born here, and you're worthy to receive the Atonement, whether you believe in Jesus or not, okay?

01:24:28

So, on this earth, if you don't even believe in Jesus, you will go to at least one of the kingdoms, okay?

01:24:33

You could end up in the lowest kingdom, you know, first kingdom, second kingdom of heaven, okay?

01:24:39

So, the key thing is... Now, I lost my train of thought, where I was going.

01:24:48

So, we were talking about all the items that we needed, okay? So, again, when we talk about work, you know,

01:24:56

Lynn mentioned, you know, you know, we have to be baptized, okay, in the Mormon Church by people that have authority.

01:25:04

We have to be confirmed as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, okay? We have to attend our sacrament meetings weekly, okay?

01:25:13

If you're a man, you must receive the Melchizedek priesthood. You must follow, again, the

01:25:18

Word of Wisdom, which is a health code. We can't drink coffee. We can't drink tea. Now, this is an interesting concept.

01:25:25

You know, for years, all the years we were in the LDS Church, we were taught that you don't drink coffee or tea because of the caffeine.

01:25:34

When Mitt Romney was running for president, he just poked on Diet Coke. Diet Coke has lots of caffeine in it.

01:25:41

So, they asked him about that, and the Church actually put out a publication that said, through the

01:25:47

PR department, that we have never said you couldn't have caffeine. It's never been about caffeine.

01:25:54

And I know people who were denied a Temple Recommend because they would drink caffeinated drinks.

01:26:03

So, that was just a huge lie. So, then I was talking to some an ex -Mormon student, and he said, well, when

01:26:11

I went to BYU -Idaho, my bishop said, if we would drink cappuccino, which is a form of coffee, if you would drink it hot, you couldn't get a

01:26:21

Temple Recommend. But if you would have a cold cappuccino, you could get a Temple Recommend.

01:26:28

I am serious. I about fell off my chair. So, we talk about legalism, and then we start breaking it down.

01:26:36

It just doesn't make sense. You either live a health code, or you don't. So, I could do all these righteous things.

01:26:44

I could attend, you know, do everything that I'm supposed to be doing as a Mormon. I could get 20 % tithing.

01:26:50

I could give the other percent to the fast offering, and so forth. But if I went to my bishop and said, bishop,

01:26:57

I have a cup of coffee once a week, or I have a cup of coffee, you know, or a cup of tea once a week, hot tea, hot coffee, or cold tea.

01:27:09

For some reason, cold tea is not good for you, either. I could not get a Temple Recommend. So, that's a kind of crazy way that this works.

01:27:19

Now, was there any explanation on why this was viewed as a health benefit, or anything that was virtuous in the cold, rather than the hot beverages?

01:27:32

We don't know, because when the original Word of Wisdom came out in Doctrine and Covenants 89, it was not issued as a commandment, but as a guideline.

01:27:45

And for some reason, it's gotten changed to a commandment. And it used to be just about hot drinks.

01:27:52

And it used to include hot chocolate. Back in the 1800s, you didn't drink hot chocolate, hot soup, anything that was hot, you didn't drink.

01:27:59

And then, it was modified in the 1920s to just include coffee and tea. And then, they would say, well, it's about the caffeine.

01:28:06

That's the reason we do it. So, they included tea, hot or cold coffee. And then, it didn't make a difference.

01:28:13

You just didn't have coffee, period, because whether it's caffeinated or decaffeinated, it's a hot drink. So, there's good things about it.

01:28:20

But also, in the Word of Wisdom, it says you should only eat meat in times of famine, or in times of where you're trying to...you

01:28:29

don't eat meat in the time of summer, but you might eat it in the wintertime. Well, I know a lot of Mormons that will eat steak and hamburgers in the summertime without a problem.

01:28:39

But that's also in the Word of Wisdom. So, they pick and choose what they want. They're not consistent.

01:28:45

And that's the key thing about we should be consistent in what we teach and what we believe. Hey, by the way,

01:28:51

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, if you're listening, you got to send us in another question because obviously, our guests already answered your question about caffeinated beverages.

01:29:02

What you said reminded me, I worked for 15 years for a Christian radio station.

01:29:10

The physical station was in New Jersey, but it was a New York City station because of the coverage mainly being in the five boroughs of New York City.

01:29:19

And when they purchased that radio station, there was already a

01:29:28

Hasidic Jewish program on Saturday nights, or it might have been on Friday night.

01:29:36

No, it was actually on Saturday night, Saturday nights that they kept there. And they had some hilarious programs because one of them was a game show called the

01:29:48

Country Yossi Show where this Hasidic Jewish individual would change the words to famous country

01:29:55

Western songs and make them Jewish. He would put specific things in there that related to Judaism instead of like the

01:30:05

Johnny Cash song, Because You're Mine, I Walk the Line. He had a song called,

01:30:10

Cause I'm a Jew, I Do That Too. And I can remember one of the questions was in his game show, his question was,

01:30:21

Can you drink chocolate milk on the Shabbos? And somebody called in and he said,

01:30:29

Is it hot or cold? He said, It's cold.

01:30:37

He goes, Yes, you're right. You won a $50 gift certificate to Moshe's Butcher on the corner of 4th

01:30:44

Avenue. It was hilarious. But obviously the difference there was there is a

01:30:52

Jewish prohibition to cooking on the Shabbos, the Sabbath, and heating up the chocolate milk would have been in their understanding of things, a violation.

01:31:06

Obviously Christians believe that the Jewish people have taken the laws of the

01:31:13

Old Testament, many of them, out of context and that would be one of them regarding the

01:31:18

Sabbath. But anyway, we have to go to a break right now. We still have a few of you waiting anxiously to have your questions asked and answered and we will try to get to you as soon as possible.

01:31:29

But our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:31:34

If any of you care to join us, if we have time to squeeze you in, that is.

01:31:41

And we hope to hear from you and we look forward to speaking with our guests after these messages.

01:31:48

So don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225

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01:32:20

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01:33:49

Chris Arnzen here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.

01:33:55

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the

01:34:05

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01:34:35

That's G3conference .com. Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the

01:34:40

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there. Charles Hedden's version once said,

01:34:49

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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01:35:58

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01:36:11

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01:36:19

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01:37:02

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01:37:10

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, in the next half hour to come, our guests today have been

01:37:19

Michael and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, co -founders of Ex -Mormon Christians United for Jesus, and we are discussing their book,

01:37:27

Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:37:33

If you intend to write, I would advise you to do it very soon because we're running out of time.

01:37:39

And we have Seth from Randleman, North Carolina, who asks, do you believe

01:37:45

Mormons will revert back to their original dogmatic teachings, as far as engaging in evangelism?

01:37:53

And I'm assuming he's also talking about polygamy and other things like that, with the ways that the laws regarding marriage in this nation have radically changed, and marriage has even been redefined.

01:38:07

I don't even see that being, you know, something that would be mind -boggling that that would happen. He has two questions, but I'll let you approach that one first.

01:38:21

I do not know what the Mormon Church will do next. You know, as far as the polygamy issue,

01:38:32

I don't think the mainstream Mormon Church will pick up polygamy again.

01:38:39

They believe it's an eternal principle. They believe that the righteous will live it in the millennium.

01:38:45

They believe that it'll be lived in the next life for those who've kind of earned their godhood.

01:38:53

But there is a huge push in the United States also, right, and around the world for polygamy to be legal now that gay and lesbian marriages are legal.

01:39:04

I suppose it will come to be legal in the United States. You may or may not be aware, as many as 100 ,000 live polygamy currently in the

01:39:17

Intermountain West in the United States. All of that comes from Mormonism.

01:39:24

It comes from Joseph Smith's teachings on polygamy. There might be a few

01:39:29

Muslims in the U .S. now that live polygamy, but the majority of it comes right from Joseph Smith.

01:39:37

In the 1880s, when Ulysses S. Grant was president, he pushed against the

01:39:43

Mormons when this was Utah Territory and said, look, we will not practice polygamy.

01:39:48

It's against the law. And he actually marched an army out to Utah to seize the assets of the

01:39:56

Mormon Church so that they would stop practicing polygamy. The polygamists ran underground to both

01:40:02

Canada—they're still there, by the way. We were just in Nelson, Canada, and there are two polygamist towns very close to there—and they ran to Mexico.

01:40:13

The Adams Road Ministry, our kids' ministry, now has a young woman, about 20, who left the

01:40:21

LeBaron clan in Mexico and is a biblical Christian.

01:40:26

She has 33 brothers and sisters, none of whom know

01:40:31

Jesus. The fact that the LDS Church is—just, again, me speaking personally—it's a business, okay?

01:40:43

And, you know, would it be—even though the scriptures and the

01:40:48

Mormon teachings are scriptures, in Doctrine and Covenants 132, it's okay and proper to have multiple wives.

01:40:57

I would imagine if the Quorum of the Twelve and the Mormon Church were sitting around, and they would say, well, let's say the

01:41:04

United States passed a law and it's okay to practice polygamy. They would sit there with their attorneys and say, well, should we start practicing polygamy?

01:41:12

And they'd say, well, it's probably not a good marketing play, because since we draw about 85 % of our converts from Christianity—and, as far as I know,

01:41:23

Christians do not practice polygamy—it would probably not behoove the LDS Church to start practicing polygamy again.

01:41:30

Therefore, it's not going to be implemented. Now, privately, I don't know. I don't know what can go on behind closed doors, because you have, like, these different—the

01:41:40

Second Anointing in the Temple, and so forth. But as a rule, I don't think they'll go there, even though their scriptures say, and, you know, the revelation given by Joseph Smith states that you have to do it.

01:41:54

And again, as Lynn mentioned earlier, polygamy will be practiced in the Millennium, according to Mormonism, and is practiced currently in Heaven.

01:42:04

There are multiple LDS Apostles to date, live to date, in the

01:42:11

LDS Church, that are sealed to two women, at least. And if you're sealed to somebody, that means you were married to that person on the earth, and you will be married to that person in Heaven.

01:42:27

Okay? So, despite the fact that they do sealings in the Temple—and this can only happen in the Temple—that you can do sealings of a man to a woman for all time and eternity, then that's the practice of polygamy.

01:42:41

So, they're currently practicing spiritual polygamy. In fact, there's a good chance the next prophet of the

01:42:47

LDS Church—Elder Nilsen, I think—he's sealed to two women, and he will be a

01:42:54

Mormon prophet that's sealed to two women. You don't hear anybody talk about that, but that is spiritual polygamy.

01:43:01

Yeah, that doesn't mean he's currently living with two women. That means he was sealed to his first wife.

01:43:07

She died, and then he married a second wife and was sealed to her in the Temple.

01:43:12

Right, right. Again, in the LDS Church—that's my bad on that one—in the LDS Church, you do not practice polygamy physically on the earth at this time.

01:43:25

But, you know, God forbid, you know, his wife did die, and then he was re -sealed to another lady who wasn't sealed to another man.

01:43:33

So, she will be with him and his first wife in the hereafter. So, I'd be curious to ask his first wife what she thinks about that in the hereafter.

01:43:42

But, that's the practice of polygamy. It is an eternal principle. And now that I'm reading more thoroughly what

01:43:52

Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, wrote, it wasn't a second question. He was putting the first in a context, wondering if they will revert back to their original dogmatic teachings, considering how today's

01:44:09

Mormons are very similar to current evangelicals in that most want to espouse that we are all the same, a

01:44:18

Rick Warren type of approach, in that we differ only on minor doctrines only.

01:44:23

In other words, our listener is not saying that he believes that's true, that we differ only on minor doctrines, but that is according to the public relations pitch of modern -day

01:44:36

Mormons seems to be very ecumenical -like modern evangelicals. So, that's basically where he was coming from with the second part of his email here.

01:44:48

By the way, Seth, we ran out of the book that we were primarily giving away,

01:44:56

Seven Reasons We Left Mormonism, but you're actually getting a free copy of Unveiling Grace, the story of how we found our way out of the

01:45:06

Mormon church, the more updated or the latest,

01:45:12

I should say, publication that our guest Lynn Kay Wilder has written.

01:45:18

And we had one of those available still here, extra, that we will send out to you.

01:45:25

And if you already received it, because I know that Lynn had already addressed that subject on our show before, and I can't remember if you were one of the winners of that, if you already received it, we just ask of you, please give it to a

01:45:38

Mormon. And we're going to keep you on the honor system with that. If you get that, please give that copy to a

01:45:45

Mormon, if you already have one especially. And before we go to,

01:45:51

I think we're up to four, the fourth reason, I might be wrong, but you know better than me,

01:45:58

I want to just go to a mutual friend of ours in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

01:46:05

Latane has written in. Everybody loves

01:46:11

Latane. She says, a recent Christianity Today article examined whether or not traditional

01:46:20

Christianity and Mormonism are on a path to reconciling.

01:46:25

What do you think? Until their scriptures change?

01:46:31

No. The fact is, it's quite simple.

01:46:38

Mormons can become Christians when they do this. They have to denounce Joseph Smith.

01:46:44

They have to get rid of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine, Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Pride. They have to get rid of their current prophets, because according to the

01:46:51

Bible, we do not have prophets today. They have to get rid of the temple endowment, because the temple endowment requires works for salvation and exaltation.

01:47:04

So all those things will have to go away, and if they do all that, then they could probably and get rid of the concept that you have to join the

01:47:14

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints to be saved, then they will be approaching the concept of becoming a

01:47:21

Biblical Christianity. But that's a lot to happen, and that's not going to happen. They're going to keep...well,

01:47:28

God can do anything, so I shouldn't speak for God. God can do anything. What a miracle He did with the

01:47:34

Worldwide Church of God. But these are concepts that it looks like, and the

01:47:40

PR department and the Mormons you talk to are going through sounding more like Christians.

01:47:48

But the fact is that when we joined the LDS Church, their doctrine back then is the same doctrine today.

01:47:56

It hasn't changed. It's modified some in that they may be a little bit more lenient on something, but the core doctrine is the same.

01:48:05

Temple recommend questions, okay? The temple endowment, well, that keeps changing. I used to have to, you know, if I would break my covenant that I made in the temple, and I would suffer my life to be taken.

01:48:16

Well, that's been removed, because that was pretty offensive. So that's the current revelation. But the basic core of Mormonism is still the same, from 1977 as it is in 2016.

01:48:31

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, sent us in a different question since you asked...you

01:48:37

answered his previous one before he had a chance to ask it. Or before I had a chance to ask it for him,

01:48:44

I should say. He says, when Mormons go out in public, do they deceive, as the

01:48:50

Jehovah's Witnesses do, masking what they really believe? Obviously, Tyler is insinuating that there is an intentional deception going on.

01:49:01

Are Mormon missionaries and those that are going door -to -door, do you think that they are consciously deceiving people?

01:49:09

You know, I'm glad you brought us back to the Mormon missionaries, because I want to talk about those sweet little 18 -year -old boys that are given all this pressure to go out and preach a

01:49:25

Mormon gospel that they barely know at that age. You know, when my sons were on their missions, they had their legs threatened, people were throwing things at them.

01:49:40

Someone tried to run Micah over on his bike one time. Christians slammed the doors in their faces.

01:49:47

They called them all kinds of names. Do you know that the one thing that's supposed to distinguish us as Christians is that we're known by our love?

01:49:59

That the love of God is manifest through us? And so, here you have young men, not very solid in their own faith, knocking on your door, wanting to talk to you about God.

01:50:14

I see that as a wonderful opportunity to tell them who your

01:50:21

God is, how He saved you, what kind of answers you've had to prayer, amazing ways

01:50:31

He's shown up in your life, and to give them a reason to know your

01:50:36

God. Do I think they deceive? You know, honestly, my three sons who served

01:50:42

Mormon missions came home saying they felt a little bit guilty, because there were times they maybe didn't lie, but maybe didn't tell the whole truth.

01:50:54

Mormonism has something they call milk before meat, and that means you don't offer someone your teaching if you think they're not ready to accept it.

01:51:07

So, literally, investigators might ask Mormon missionaries about certain things like polygamy or racism, and they just literally won't go there.

01:51:16

They won't answer the question. They won't open those scriptures. In fact, you probably could consider it a bit of a deception that Mormons come to the door and only show the

01:51:27

Book of Mormon and use the Bible, because what they follow these days is basically out of the

01:51:35

Doctrine and Covenants, but that's later stuff, and they don't show people at the door that.

01:51:42

So, is it deception? You know what? They believe they have the truth. They believe the only way to help other people kind of accept it is in little bites, and so they'll only give you what you're ready to accept.

01:52:00

And so, if you want to call that deception, I mean, that would be their point of view, right?

01:52:08

Yeah. I can go by our own experience. You know, when we were still in the LDS Church, I remember a lot of questions we asked, and they just would not answer.

01:52:17

And so, we'll get into that later on, and we never got there. So, if you ask Mormon missionaries, is

01:52:23

God a created being, or what goes on in the

01:52:28

Temple, they're just not going to answer that stuff. You know, if I'm baptized in the

01:52:34

Mormon Church, will I get to live with Heavenly Father? Well, they won't quite answer those questions.

01:52:40

They'll say, well, you'll learn more about this later on. And these dear young missionaries, you know, guys who are 18, 19, and 20, and women who are, what, 19, 20, 21 that go out, sometimes they just don't know.

01:52:58

They have a limited knowledge, and they're just learned by, you know, been taught by what they've been taught through the

01:53:04

LDS Church. I remember I was talking to, I don't know, the Mormon missionary, and I gave him a fact, and he says, well, we don't believe that.

01:53:15

That's an absolute lie. So, I just very gently turned to their actual scriptures and handed him the scriptures and said, read this, and what does this teach tell you?

01:53:26

And his jaw just dropped. And Lent had that same experience where they don't understand.

01:53:32

I mean, you really don't understand Mormonism until you get into leadership positions later on and you start, you know, reading their scriptures and studying it.

01:53:44

Now, I did have a confrontation with a Mormon missionary. I hate to use the word confrontation, but I have to admit that I was playing a little bit dumb, so I kind of led him into a trap to see, you know.

01:53:57

That was something, my mistake, but I caught him in a lie on doctrine.

01:54:04

I asked him a point concept, and he said, no, we don't believe that.

01:54:11

And then I worked it around again and realized, then he finally says, yes, we actually do believe that.

01:54:17

So, I asked him, I said, so did you lie to me? And he actually said, yes, I did lie to you.

01:54:23

So, that's my experience. Now, that could have been one missionary out of all the 80 ,000 missionaries out there.

01:54:32

As a rule, they're very kind, loving men and women.

01:54:38

They mean well. They want to do the right thing. They think they're doing the right thing, but they're just blind.

01:54:45

As Paul stated, you know, they have a veil of blindness before their eyes, and the scriptures they read, they won't see the same thing as a

01:54:54

Christian reads, and that's why we have to be very careful in how we explain that to them, and God will eventually remove that veil.

01:55:01

Oh, well, by the way, Tyler, thanks for writing in, and we're out of our giveaways.

01:55:07

So, I can tell you, though, that on October 28th,

01:55:12

I got a little choked up when I saw that date, because that is my late wife's birthday, but on October 28th, which is a

01:55:21

Friday, we're going to have Adam's Road on the program, and they are managed by our guest's son,

01:55:29

Micah, who actually led Dr. Lynn K. Wilder to the true

01:55:35

Christ and true gospel of the Bible. So, if you make a note of that on your calendar, Tyler, we're going to be doing some giveaways then on October 28th, and if you be first online, we'll make sure that we send you something, perhaps one of their

01:55:51

CDs or something of that nature. But thanks again for writing in, Tyler, and I also have to invite our guest back, because we only got up,

01:56:02

I think, to number three, right? We actually talked about everything except the temple, pretty much, and stuff, but we're always happy to talk about anything.

01:56:13

Yeah, well, we could come back and go through four through seven, and it's funny because people say to me, you actually do a two -hour show?

01:56:22

You have guests on for two hours? Well, I run it out of time today with not even getting to seven points.

01:56:31

But if you stay on the line after we go off the air, I'd like to book you to be on our program again at some point in the near future.

01:56:38

I have my calendar open here. Thank you. Chris, can I tell you something else about October 28th?

01:56:45

Oh, yeah, sure. That is the date that Michael and I were baptized into Mormonism, the most important date in my life for 30 years.

01:56:59

Seven years ago, God gave us a granddaughter on our date on October 28th, and we consider that a redemption, one of those reconciling things that God does.

01:57:15

Well, praise God. And I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

01:57:24

I know that your website for Ex -Mormon Christians for Jesus is unveilingmormonism .com.

01:57:34

Unveilingmormonism .com. Do you have any other kind of contact information or websites that you'd care to share?

01:57:41

Certainly, the Unveiling Grace book website. We have a

01:57:46

Facebook page, Unveiling Grace Book, and certainly people are welcome to find me on Facebook, Lynn Weeding Wilder.

01:57:57

Also, my phone number and our emails are on our website,

01:58:04

Unveiling Mormonism. We talk to folks every day. This is our life now.

01:58:10

We consider ourselves servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. God is on the move with Mormons right now.

01:58:18

Many are coming to know the Lord Jesus, and in any way that we can help with that, we stand ready.

01:58:28

Well, praise God. And the website for the Unveiling Grace book is unveilinggracethebook .com.

01:58:37

And there's also a link to the Facebook page right on there.

01:58:43

And I do want to remind our listeners about Adam's Road, the

01:58:52

Adam's Road interview. Adam's Road is a musical group made up entirely of former

01:58:57

Mormons who came to faith in Jesus Christ by his grace and mercy.

01:59:03

And I know that we're going to have some of the guys from Adam's Road on the program, and I believe including

01:59:08

Micah, the manager of Adam's Road, which is, as I said earlier, the son of our guest today,

01:59:16

Michael and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder. So keep that on your calendars marked.

01:59:22

And also, as I said earlier, keep the November 9th open on your website for Kathleen Melenakos, her book that we are discussing about counterfeiting in the early

01:59:42

Mormon church that you should be finding fascinating. And I want to thank everybody who wrote in, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater