House Rule #8 Select Qualified Deacons (1 Timothy 3:8-13)

Kootenai Church

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Good morning, good to see each one of you here today. I invite you to open your

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Bibles once again to 1st Timothy. This morning we're looking again at 1st Timothy chapter 3 at what we're calling house rules for God's church and this is rule number 8, select qualified deacons.

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And there's an outline here Rick has outlined if you don't have one yet he'll serve you which is our theme for the day.

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You get your illustrations wherever you can you know Nathal so I find them wherever I can find them.

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Before we do let's commit our time to our Lord in prayer and to ask his blessing.

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Our Father we do thank you that you have gathered us here today we notice by your grace we know that it is for the purpose of worshiping you so we just thank you for that great privilege and you made that possible through Jesus Christ our

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Lord. We pray now Father that as we study your word you would be our teacher by your spirit that you would help us to be hearers of the word but also doers of the word.

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May you be glorified in it and we just ask it in Jesus mighty name Amen. Last time we looked at the qualifications for elders in 1st

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Timothy chapter 3 the first part. I'm getting a little bit of a... are you all hearing that or is that just me?

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I never know if the ringing in my ears is just the normal ringing that I always have.

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But last time we looked at the office of elder and how important that was to the church and and the priority that it is given in the

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Word of God and especially in this letter. You hear that?

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Good. It's not me. Okay I think we're there now maybe maybe not.

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The wonders of modern technology. Charles Haddon Spurgeon preached in the Metropolitan Tabernacle that massive cavernous building without any amplification apparently.

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He must have had quite a voice. He did yeah. Okay I think we're good now.

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That sounds a little bit better. But the the issue of elders we dealt with last time very very important and we saw that the basic definition in Scripture is a plurality of godly men who are charged by God with leading and feeding the church.

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So you have the imagery there of course of the shepherd and that's what their task is to shepherd the church.

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And we saw that the the motivation is internal by the Spirit of God to lead the man to want to do that and of course we went through the qualifications for that.

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What we're going to see here and the qualifications for deacons will will really be an echo of that.

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You're going to see some of the very same things and it only makes sense right that qualifications that are spiritual qualifications would be pretty much across the board.

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It's not going to be compartmentalized into vastly different kinds of qualifications and by the way these are qualifications for the most part for every single believer in Jesus Christ.

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We are all supposed to have these qualities in our lives as we grow in Christ.

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One of the observations that the students of the New Testament made is that when the church was born on Pentecost it had already in place the concept of male leadership in the church.

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Of course this would have come out of the the history of the the temple worship led by men and also as the

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Jews were dispersed throughout the the nations when they established synagogues they were led by men.

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Christ had personally chosen the twelve. We know that Judas passed off the scene as he did.

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He was replaced by Matthias in Acts chapter 1. So on the day of Pentecost when 3 ,000 people were saved the leadership of the church was in place in the person of the twelve apostles.

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They basically functioned like the elders would function later on. Ministry of the Word and so on.

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Paul of course was added later. And as the church moved out into the world in that initial missionary movement the churches were established and they needed shepherds.

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And so that apostolic generation would eventually pass off the scene and it is very clear from the

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New Testament that there is not a succession of apostles. In spite of what various systems have taught and different movements have taught through the years there are no more apostles.

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There is a succession but it's not of people it is of the truth, the Word of God, the scriptures.

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This is what we pass on down to the next generation. So early on God ordained that his church would be led by a plurality of godly men.

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And as Paul says in Titus chapter 1, who must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and to rebuke those who contradict it.

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So as we arrive at chapter 3 verses 8 through 13 the

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Apostle Paul describes the qualifications for another office in the church, an office that apparently was not known at the birth of the church, the office of deacon.

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This is another group of leaders that is critical, absolutely critical to the health and the functioning of God's church.

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On the day of Pentecost recorded next to the Twelve Apostles were the leaders of this brand new entity called the

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Body of Christ the Church. And the Jews, the Old Testament Jews, the Old Testament Jewish Christians now would have automatically assumed that the church would be led by men.

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Again because of the temple being led by men and synagogues would have had male leadership.

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But there was not an office known as deacons. So when the need arose in Acts chapter 6 there was no office in place.

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And so the need came about and the Apostles responded to that need.

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So this morning there on your notes starting with Roman numeral 1 we're going to look at the office and then the qualifications and then the rewards.

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First the office. Best place to start here I think is John chapter 13 because even though the office is not mentioned there in the upper room, the mindset is, and this is really critical to understand,

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Christ wants to establish in his disciples the mindset of servanthood.

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And of course in John chapter 13 he's gathering them in the upper room the night before his crucifixion and he gives them very very powerful audio visual and even tactile lesson when he washes their feet.

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It says in chapter 13 now before the feast of the Passover when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to to the

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Father having loved his own who were in the world he loved them to the end during supper when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot Simon's son to betray him

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Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands and that he had come from God and was going back to God rose from supper he laid aside his outer garments and taking a towel tied it around his waist this would have been the the the garb of the typical household servant to wrap a towel around their waist to serve people then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him and of course we know when he came to Simon Peter they had that interchange and then he has to later on tell them actually what he did verse 13 you call me teacher and Lord and you are right for so I am if I then your

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Lord and teacher have washed your feet you also ought to wash one another's feet for I have given you an example that you also should do just as I have done to you truly truly

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I say to you a servant and here it's the word do loss the absolute slave is not greater than his master nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him if you know these things blessed are you if you do them so there at the very beginning even before he dies on the cross he wants to instill in his disciples the mindset of service to one another and then in Philippians chapter 2 we won't turn there but later on the

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Apostle Paul has to remind the Philippians of this same attitude and you know that passage very well

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Philippians chapter 2 let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus and so then talks about the servanthood of Christ and how his death on the cross was a was a was a sacrifice that paid atonement for sins but it also becomes the model for how we are to consider ourselves in service to one another so these are two foundational passages to look at as far as the the office and how it had its actual initial beginning it starts with the mindset and then later on in Acts chapter 6 when it when the need arises we see its development this is be on your outline so if you look at Acts chapter 6 this is thought by many to be the very beginning of the office of deacons now there are those that say well it really didn't start here because it doesn't formally call this an office or it doesn't call them deacons but what we're going to see

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I think here is you do see the beginning of this office within the church itself so here you have the church it is after the day of Pentecost the disciples are preaching and teaching in synagogue and back up in chapter 5 of course they meet opposition by the religious establishment of the day and they're arrested they're charged in verse 28 of 5 it says we strictly charge you not to teach in this name yet here you have filled

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Jerusalem with your teaching and you intended to bring this man's blood upon us how did they respond they said okay we'll never going to do that again we're going home we'll see you later goodbye they didn't do that verse 29 but Peter and the

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Apostles answered we must obey God rather than men also very foundational to who we are and what we are and then he gives that great sermon there from 30 on down in chapter 5 and he really just pulls out the old

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Louisville slugger and this is some real blunt force evangelism here basically he tells these

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Jewish leaders you murdered your own Messiah that's what he tells them and then down in verse 38 and following they are again called in verse 40 and when they had called in the

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Apostles they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus and let them go and once again then they left the presence of the council rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name and what did they do every day in the temple and from house to house very important little phrase there house to house they did not cease teaching and preaching

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Jesus as the Christ now the very next verse in chapter 6 verse 1 this is a little bit of a progress report this tells you how the

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Holy Spirit responded to their obedience to the will of God to obeying God now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number okay a complaint by the

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Hellenists arose among the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution the

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Hellenists were Greek speaking converts to Christianity they were Jews who had lived outside of Jerusalem Judea and of course the commonly spoken language was

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Greek Koine Greek common Greek it was a trade language and commonly spoken by people out in those areas other countries they were saved came in and they were part of the church and there apparently was some sort of a conflict with with the feeding of these widows the

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Greek speaking widows were being neglected in the daily distribution by the way that word is the

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Iconia the very word that we get the word deacon from the word deacon is simply just a transliteration of the

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Greek word it's just brought over into our language basically untranslated and here is this word one of the one of the part in the family of those words diakonia in the distribution apparently the there was still some animosity within the church okay you remember back in chapter 2 of 1st

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Timothy where Paul talks about men leading worship that he wants them to lead worship without anger or wrath these were saved people they were in the church but there was probably still some residual animosity even between Jews and Gentiles and at least here something was going on between the the

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Hebrew speaking people and the Jewish speaking people they were making some kind of a division and some sort of a an issue had arose and these

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Hellenistic or Greek speaking widows were not being fed when the church would feed the widows and the

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Apostles then are going to respond verse 2 says and the 12 summoned the full number of the disciples and said it is not right that we should give up preaching the

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Word of God to serve tables now we have the verb form deacon name of that very same word therefore brothers pick out from among you seven men of good repute full of the

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Spirit and of wisdom whom we will appoint to this duty so here the twelve the the the

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Apostles are functioning like the elders would function later on they have oversight over the church but they are also delegating responsibility to the congregation to select these men to serve the widows and we're going to see why would the congregation be involved in that well they have to be men of good report good reputation and who would know that the congregation would know that but they delegate that to them and it says pick out from among you seven men of good repute full of the

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Spirit and of wisdom whom we will we will appoint to this duty so even though they delegated the responsibility to select some men ultimately because they had oversight over the church as elders do today they were the ones that were going to actually make the final decision as to who would serve but here's verse 4 is really important but we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry by the way also the word diakonos of the word even though there was a need arose in the church to meet this need they delegated responsibility to find people to meet that need they kept the priority of the word and prayer this priority then extends clear into the church this is one of the reasons you have elders dedicated to preaching and teaching the

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Word of God it's a priority of the church and you have the deacons who help them maintain that priority by taking care of other things even though it's a critical ministry and it's a spiritual ministry the preaching of the word and the teaching of the word is is the priority of the church verse 5 says and what they said pleased the whole gathering and they chose

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Stephen a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit and Philip and Prochorus and Nicanor and Timon and Parmenas and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch Greek names by the way pretty wise to do that these they set before the

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Apostles and they prayed and laid their hands on them and just to give you another progress report to show you how the

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Holy Spirit honored their obedience to doing this and to maintaining the priority of the preaching of the word look at verse 7 and the

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Word of God continued to increase and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith it's one of the first the first of six progress reports in the book of Acts they obeyed

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God they obeyed the leading of the Spirit they kept the priorities where they should be and yet they met the need that came up in the church and God honored that and the church continued to grow and multiply and by the way a great many priests became obedient to the faith what you're going to see is and it's really important to see is that this internal ministry within the church is a powerful evangelistic tool it may be the most powerful evangelistic tool when

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Jesus again met with his disciples in the upper room and it's back to chapter 13 a new commandment

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I give you that you love one another internal ministry just as I have loved you you also are to love one another by this all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another powerful evangelistic tool is the internal ministry the one another ministries of the church to the outside world we may not think of it that way but it is and you can clearly see it here they kept the priority of the

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Word of God in prayer and God honored that by by multiplying their numbers right there in Jerusalem even in the midst of persecution right so the origin of the office the the thinking the undergirding mindset from John 13 in the example of Christ but also in Acts chapter 6 the one another ministries of the

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New Testament is put on display well what about the purpose the purpose of course simply to serve it's very important to see the office of deacons is a service ministry and it is a ministry the duties are not stated in our passage as we'll see because it covers just a wide range of duties certainly it would have involved feeding the widows if that was part of what they did then and it would include that but the main division of labor so to speak is that the elders focus on the feeding and leading and the deacons focus on the other ministries of the church the the word is used more than 100 times in its various forms in the

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New Testament for example Matthew 4 11 the temptation of Christ after he was tempted by Satan and Satan left him it says that then the devil left him and behold angels came and ministered to him in the

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ESV that is the word deacon noon very same word family they were deacons to Christ and then in Matthew chapter 20 even before he got into the upper room the

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Lord had to give his disciples a lesson in how their minds were supposed to get right as far as service they anticipated the coming of the kingdom there was a very high level of Messianic hope and expectation in that time in that place and with those people and here they have the king right in front of them right they have the

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Messiah they know who he is and he's clearly proven to be the rightful heir to the throne of David so there's a high level of Messianic expectation they expected the kingdom to be implemented at any point in time and what did they do they started jockeying for position in the coming kingdom and two of them as you remember their mother tried to intercede for them you know how embarrassing right get your mother to go talk to Jesus and of course it says in Matthew 20 when the ten heard of it they were indignant at the two brothers you know but Jesus called that them to him and said you know that the rulers of the

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Gentiles lord it over them and they're great ones exercise authority over them it shall not be so among you but whoever would be great among you must be your servant the word is the

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Akinos deacon and whoever would be first among you must be your slave do loss so here he just interchangeably that the word deacon and slave are in the same very same context for the very same mindset even as the

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Son of Man came not to be served Diakoneo but to serve

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Diakoneo and to give his life as a ransom for many once again

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Christ the supreme example of service to those he loves and hopefully these guys

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I'm sure they were embarrassed at this teaching but here you once again have this concept of Christ being the supreme example of service and servanthood to his flock and those who follow him are to do the very same thing so the origin the mindset of course is before Acts chapter 6 but in Acts chapter 6 we really see the implementation of it

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I think there and its development is along the way when

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Acts took place depending on how you date this and different people data but let's say 30

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AD in Jerusalem in Philippians chapter 1 and we look at this last time the Apostle Paul addresses the

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Philippian Christians he probably wrote that around 60 AD about 30 years later he addresses that letter to the

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Saints in Philippi with the overseers and deacons and he uses the word for for overseer there and deacons so those two offices were in place at that point in time and so you see that over about 30 year span of time and then to our passage here in 1st

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Timothy chapter 3 probably written around 62 AD so by this time the office was well established and what

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Paul is doing here with Timothy he's going back and he's correcting what went wrong in Ephesus they understood what the what the elders should have been doing and he corrects that and now he's correcting this idea of what the deacons are supposed to be doing how they are supposed to be servants so there's the office its origin its development and its purpose is to serve and again the supreme example of that in case you're wondering is

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Christ himself and that great passage in Philippians let this mind be in you is so important to see well then we're going to see the qualifications in verses 8 through 12 in our passage here this morning and again it's going to be very similar to what we saw for for the elders and first we and no surprise his character deacons verse 8 likewise must be dignified not double -tongued not addicted too much wine not greedy for dishonest gain so his character starts out it has to be dignified it means worthy of respect and it's essentially basically a synonymous with above reproach we saw two times in the criteria for elders above reproaches mentioned we also saw it in in Titus two times above reproach doesn't mean without sin it can't be that and that nobody would qualify for anything but it means all of the accusations that are coming going to come against a man who takes a stand for the

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Word of God who is slandered and accused of all kinds of things they can't reach him and grab hold of them that's the literal understanding of that word can't be laid hold of by these accusations and then not double -tongued he must speak the truth he cannot say one thing part of the time or live one way part of the time and then speak or live another way another time he must be a man of integrity we're going to see this a little later on when we talk about how he lives and his doctrine his life and his doctrine he's got to be a man that is whole you know in math an integer is a whole number it's integral it doesn't have parts and pieces and it's so typical nowadays you hear somebody talk and they talk pretty good you know somebody even in ministry and then you find out over here they've lived a life of sin and it's found out right well how did they do that well so often these people they're not integrated in their in their life and doctrine and they make a separation and they stack up a whole bunch of religious stuff over here thinking that's going to balance out this sinful life over here and the problem is the minute this gets so far separated the thing breaks down and it collapses and when they get discovered you realize wait a minute how could this guy who's been a well -respected teacher or whatever he is in his so -called ministry well he's able to then he says separated these two things and he's never been integrated a man has to be not double -tongued he's got to live think speak the same and of course this is true for every single one of us and then not addicted to much wine not a drunkard he cannot be controlled or mastered by anything other than the

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Holy Spirit we saw this last time what a person is addicted to controls them it occupies them they're always thinking about where they're going to get the next you fill in the blank to satisfy their addiction they are not controlled or filled with the

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Holy Spirit of God and they're not greedy for dishonest gain how he relates to money and not just his own money but to other people's money as well because very often deacons are put in charge of financial issues within the church as part of their service ministry they must be able to handle the stewardship of money with integrity and then his doctrine again very important but also true for every single one of us it says that they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience okay we

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I think it was on page six of your notes you have a list of the references to the faith that are in the

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New Testament all of them aren't there but there's quite a few of them there it's talking about the content of our faith we have our subjective faith of course in Christ and those two of course are linked but what it really is talking about there is their faith the faith is the content of our faith the objective

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Word of God the Scriptures the gospel pure doctrine he's he must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience here we're back to this idea of being a whole person right if his conscience isn't clear but his doctrine is something seriously wrong you can't do you can't operate that we can't function that way his faith must be held with a clear conscience his main duty may not include teaching or preaching but there's nothing to prohibit deacons from teaching they should teach there should be lots of teachers in the church but he must be sound in his doctrine as all the rest of us should be as well and he even though he may have some teaching responsibilities it may not be the main thing he does as far as his service but whether or not he teaches he must still hold to and believe in sound or healthy doctrine and so we see then his character his doctrine and then his testing it says and let them also be tested first then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless in the life of the of a

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Christian these two things always go together you know our life and our doctrine as we're going to see and so his testing would be a part of that it doesn't say it's a formal test he doesn't give a formal test other than pure doctrine and his life and those things are always together our life our morality how we live and it's often gathered up in the little word love

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Paul often talks about your faith and love he wants to see your love as a product of your true faith or belief go back to the supreme example

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Jesus we're told in John 1 14 was full of grace and truth he wasn't a good 50 -50 mix by the way like half -calf you know it wasn't a good blend he was full of grace and full of truth like no other human being who ever lived he was fully

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God and fully man but these two parts of his person were there

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Paul says in Ephesians 4 15 we are to speak the truth in love so both those things are there

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Peter told his readers for 2nd Peter 3 18 his last words to the church grow in the grace and knowledge of our

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Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and even if you look over at chapter 4 verse 16 right there in 1st

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Timothy Paul's real concerned about Timothy's doctrine okay but he's also concerned about his life and he says keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching persist in this for by so doing you will save both yourself and your heirs and he's really concerned about his spiritual life his morality as well as his doctrine both of those have to be in place so a deacon should be tested concerning these things

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Titus was if you if you go into Titus Titus very interesting and he's on the island of Crete and Timothy of course is in Ephesus Titus is mentioned 13 times in the

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New Testament nine times in 2nd Corinthians he was a big help to the Apostle Paul in Paul's Corinthian ministry read through 2nd

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Corinthians see how often Titus is mentioned in 2nd Corinthians chapter 8 he's talking about this offering that is taken and it's going to be taken and given to people who were suffering during a time of famine and Titus has put in charge of that and Paul entrust

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Titus so Titus was a very trustworthy man he certainly would have qualified as a deacon in Paul's ministry extremely helpful to him so he is to be tested as far as these things and even the men in in Acts chapter 6 were tested according to that criteria full of the

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Holy Spirit and so on very very important and then D his wife this is probably a verse that has maybe the most interpretive issues swirling around it the

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ESV says their wives likewise must be dignified not slanderers but sober -minded faithful in all things now that word wife there here it's plural wives can also be translated as woman and how you understand that word to be being used here by Paul is going to decide usually how you whether or not you see this as the establishment of a third office in the church an office of deacon s the

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New American Standard says women the Christian Standard Bible wives and I be took it to be women some again have taken this to be a third office in the church and they'll use this passage and translate this as women so that there would be at the establishment they say of an office of deacon s's in the church they might go to Romans chapter 16 verse 1 and 2 where Paul talks about Phoebe he commends

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Phoebe and calls her a deacon and talks about how much of a servant she was to him and to others in ministry but even there he's not establishing any kind of an office and doesn't talk about her as if she's part of an office he simply is commending her for her service to him and to other people in the church the word there is supplied by the translators so the translators of the

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ESV obviously are taking this to be the wives of deacons very literally it says wives likewise dignified not slanderers sober minded faithful in all things and others argue that if it's a reference to the deacons wives why is there no reference to the qualifications for the elders wives back in chapter 3 verses 1 through 7 why are there aren't the wives of the elders mentioned in the qualifications for elders not all elders are married that could be but there's a there's also a very fundamental reason elders are in charge of oversight over the entire church which would include men and what is

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Paul done up in chapter 2 verses 11 through 15 he excludes women from that office for that very reason they are not to be have oversight or in be in charge of men have authority over men so he eliminates that right out of the starting blocks there as far as a participant in that ministry so when you have see an advertisement for a church and it says pastors you know and there's two names and it's the pastor in his wife are the pastors of that church generally speaking that arrangement is not going to be biblical because she is considered to be a co -pastor with him or a co -elder that is not scriptural according to first Timothy okay and so that's that's one of those arguments if he is addressing the wives of deacons it's not an office of oversight or ruling in that regard and his wife very well could participate with him in anything she's qualified to help him with and she should right if he's involved in feeding people mercy ministries those types of things then she more than likely would participate in that even though she is not a deacon in the church she could participate in that as well even church history into the fourth century canon 19 the

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Council of Nicaea it's the first mention of the idea of women being deacons and that's a long ways into church history but if this is a reference to the wives of the deacons one of the reasons that I take it that way the very same word is used in verse 12 let deacons each be the husband of one wife there it's singular but it's exact same word now if you're going to translate a word two different ways within an immediate context you should probably have some pretty strong warrant from the context itself and so it makes sense for him for this to be understood to be wives and not just generically women in verse 12 also the issue of the deacons management of his household comes up and I think verse 11 is simply

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Paul introducing this concept who would be the deacons most important person in his household men get it right his wife right his wife is the most important relationship in his household not his children they're important like I always tell my little my granddaughters when they were young I love children when they're properly cooked or even the parental generation there's an important principle in the scripture clear back to creation right is that the generation when they're married they become an entity they become something very special and important and that marriage that relationship is more important than the previous generation and even the subsequent generation of children they're going to pass away and the children probably will go out of the picture at some point in time the marriage is still there and God brought those two people together for that purpose and so I think what he's doing here he's simply introducing wives into the picture because they're the most important part of this man's household and so another issue is here too if he is introducing a new office in verse 11 it's a little strange just in the the narrative here to see him insert this issue of women deaconesses and then pick back up again talking about the requirements for deacons okay it's a little strange and she has a pretty short list of requirements as well so Paul probably would have talked about elders and then deacons male deacons and then deaconesses and he would have put more stress on the office but he really just sort of inserts this in here and so so I think the best thing way to understand it is he's making a reference to the deacons wives their wives likewise must be dignified not slanderous but sober -minded faithful in all things again these requirements are requirements that every single

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Christian should strive for and then again we're still in this idea of his household his wife most important part of his household but then the rest of his household it says let deacons each be the husband of one wife managing their children and their households well and here once again we have this idea he he needs to be a one -woman man we talked about this last time it's very same construction essentially a one -woman man he's talking about a man is faithful to his wife he's that he's he's not distracted by other women he does not try to pursue other relationships outside of his marriage but he focuses on his marriage as the most important relationship that he has and then managing his own household well it is it is observably true how this man manages his household so his character his doctrine his testing his wife and then his household and again

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I think I think D &E probably could be included in one one category his household most importantly is his wife in his household well then the rewards very literally this says the serving well ones are obtaining for themselves okay the serving well ones if you just read this you might think well this is talking about his rewards in heaven

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Paul says for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus the serving well ones are obtaining right now that's a present active verb there right now during this lifetime obtaining for themselves a good or high standing before their congregation and and again a good or great confidence in their personal faith in Jesus Christ the little phrase in the faith that is in Christ Jesus governs both of these statements so you could you could kind of render it this way as they serve well as deacons they gain a good standing for themselves in the faith that is in Christ Jesus and as they serve well they gain for themselves a great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus essentially he's looking at the external their reputation good standing and the internal their subjective faith they should have confidence in their faith in Jesus Christ so there's rule number eight select qualified deacons the office the qualifications and the rewards it's important that that we understand the rewards faithful service is rewarded by God and the deacon the office of deacon is critical to the to the functioning of the church and the spiritual testimony of the church it's not just a position of meeting some kind of material need

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I understand how it works oftentimes but it is a spiritual service to the church and as we saw back in Acts chapter 6 it has a powerful evangelistic impact on the world so do you have any questions about what we've seen here yeah well

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I'm I wouldn't know I mean not that I know of I the question is in the churches and historically there have been quite a few the

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Methodist Church commonly would have the deaconesses yeah the question is have there been any problems that emerge in the churches that do have a board of deaconesses not that I know of per se but then again

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I've never been involved in one that does so it's kind of I'm answering out of ignorance there there may be to me the real issue is what is prescribed in Scripture and how what does the

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Scripture establish as far as what what what are the offices of the church there was another question

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Julie absolutely oh yeah

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I probably should have mentioned that I I'm sure I leave out an awful lot also left out that one of the arguments is well he is supposed to be a lover of hospitality and certainly she's going to be involved in that so you sort of have to stand back and look at the bigger picture of what does a wife back to creation

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Eve was given to Adam to be his helpmate and so certainly all elders all anybody involved in ministry of any kind in any man who's married and a

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Christian should be depending on his wife for a lot of things to be his helper to be his encourager and so on so yeah that's a that's a good a good addition to this and let's see was there a question over here we're not going to cover all the bases in a class like this because I personally

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I wouldn't think so I think it would be outside the framework of what Scripture calls for no matter what if it's a ministry of the church the elders are in charge of it in other words they are the overseers of all those ministries now if there's a delegated ministry of some kind to to obviously there's going to be teachers and Sunday school teachers and there should be lots of women teachers in the church they're just limited from exercising oversight over men question then comes in okay how old sixth grade boys seventh grade boys at what point do they become under that framework of men and that's something the churches have to just work out probably the best answer

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I can give you on that may not be a comprehensive one but okay anything else from this there's a lot of really good tools out there and books and publications available to help us understand these these offices of the church one of the best that I've come across is a he's a pastor and an elder his name is

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Alec under stroke he's done some just exceptional work especially early on his work on elders and the he was responding really to to to the the fact that in the in the big evangelical church the office of elder just was sort of decaying as far as their biblical requirements and his work on elders and the recovery of biblical eldership in the church is really really good he also wrote a very excellent book on the

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New Testament deacon the title of the book minister of mercy minister of mercy and and one of the things that's so good about it is he stresses the fact that this is this is a ministry in the church and it's a ministry of mercy even though it's a ministry that involves maybe meeting a lot of material issues in the church listen to one section that he he talks about and I think you'll get a sense of what he sees as the priority for elders as well as what the biblical criteria is through the deacons the local church's charitable activities are effectively organized and centralized the deacons are collectors of funds distributors of relief and agents of mercy they help the poor the jobless the sick the widowed the elderly the homeless the shut -in the refugees and the disabled they counsel and guide people they visit people in their homes they relieve suffering they comfort protect and encourage people and help to meet their needs in contemporary language they are the congregation social workers their work though often hard and exasperating is most precious in God's eyes he is deeply concerned about the poor and the needy and here he quotes

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James 127 the passage that Justin Peters preached on last Sunday this is pure and undefiled religion declares

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James to visit orphans and widows in their distress he goes on to say caring for the needy is essential business in authentic Christianity yet the needy are often neglected and even despised this should not be the local church must care for its needy members and the diaconate the deacons is the official church body responsible for this task he goes on to say the deacons hold a distinct office of loving service to those who are in distress to those who are dear to God's heart and as is so admirably illustrated for us in Acts chapter 6 the deacons office is essential to the local church and our witness for Christ stress on witness for Christ their deacons have the honor of modeling for the local church and a lost world

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God's compassion kindness mercy and love when the local church compassionately cares for people's needs the world sees a visible display of Christ's love which will draw some people to the