Purgatory: 1 Corinthians 3 and Tim Staples

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon Welcome to the dividing line a debate on the dividing line today between myself and Tim Staples staff apologist for Catholic answers we are going to be discussing 1st

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Corinthians chapter 3 verses 10 through 15 and The claim that this text clearly presents the doctrine of purgatory.

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Here's how it's going to be laid out We're gonna jump right into it so that we can have some time at the end of the program for your phone calls as well 15 minutes each opening statements.

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We're going to be exegeting the text Then each was one of us will have an eight minute response

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We'll have five minutes to cross -examine each other eight minute closers and that should give us enough time to take about 19 to 20 minutes worth of phone calls at the end of the program

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Please make your question very short very succinct. It is not a time for you to preach to add to The presentations made by anyone it is a question a question has one of those little squiggly things the end called a question mark so please make sure that you get your question very very quickly and we will attempt to answer it as succinctly as Possible we will not open the phone lines

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For those questions until five o 'clock Mountain Standard Time Which would be four o 'clock in the

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Pacific and whatever it is, wherever else you are. You can figure it out from there So with that I would like to welcome to the air

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Tim Staples and thank you for joining us Tim It's great to be with you James All right

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So since we have a lot to get to and not a whole lot of time to do it in here We'll go ahead and if you'd like to begin sir

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Sure I'd like to begin by thanking you for sending me over a couple links to audio files from from your radio broadcast that really helped

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Me prepare for this dialogue. The first was a critique of an answer I gave on Catholic answers live to one of our callers who had a question about purgatory in 1st

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Corinthians 3 and that actually served As the impetus for this dialogue and the other was a section from a debate on purgatory

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You had as you know with father Peter Stravinsky. I'm going to be using these as sort of a foundation for my opening remarks focusing on the 1st

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Corinthians 3 10 to 15 as you said now, I suppose I could begin By saying from a

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Catholic and biblical perspective. This is really not difficult to see in a nutshell St.

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Paul is here giving us a vivid picture of the judgment Which is obviously after death and he tells us that at the judgment and I know we'll get some play on this

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There will be some who are already perfectly purified so that they will not experience the pains of purgatory

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But they will receive their reward immediately and there are those who will not have been perfectly sanctified

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So they will undergo a purging of all imperfections so that they can enter into the glory of heaven.

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St Paul says it like this. I'll just read verses 13 through 15 Each man's work will become manifest for the day referring to the judgment will disclose it because it will be revealed with fire and the

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Fire will test what sort of work each one has done If the work which any man is built on the foundation survived

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He will receive a reward if any man's work is burned up He will suffer loss though He himself will be saved but only as through fire now as James knows and I've said many times on Catholic answers live

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We have here depicted a place or more properly speaking a state of being

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Described that is obviously not hell because folks are being saved It's not heaven because there's imperfection being taken away

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And we know Revelation 21 27 says nothing unclean shall enter heaven

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Habakkuk 1 13 thou art of pure eyes than to behold evil and can't not look on wrong

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Now in a nutshell, this is a great definition of purgatory piece of cake

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But what I want to do here is back up and take the text apart a bit and I'll start by saying it that Listening very carefully to your critiques of what

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I said really pretty much everything I've said so far and more And examining 1st

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Corinthians 3 again I found that I agreed with you that st Paul here is basically continuing a discussion that goes back especially to verse that would be verse 5

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Where he focuses on his own and Apollo's apostolic endeavors Now you notice that st.

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Paul uses the metaphor of he and Apollo's being soon ergo He co -laborers with God in verse 9

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While the Corinthians were their cultivated field in which they worked he then switches metaphors made midstream as st

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Paul often does and moves to the image of the Corinthians being God's building in the latter parts of verse 9 then in verse 10 st

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Paul moves from considering himself and Apollo's to now focusing on himself as as he says a wise master builder who laid the foundation the

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Melian and He then mentions an indefinite another Alos who would then build on that foundation

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But then again in good Pauline fashion, he changes gears a bit again and at the end of verse 10

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He says let each man take a stuff each man

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Observe how he builds on the foundation. So now st. Paul is moving to a more universal statement

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He's no longer limiting himself to speaking just about himself Apollo's or even just ministers, but he's making a general statement

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Let each man observe how he builds on the foundation and this leads him to verse 11 where he says for no other

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Foundation can anyone lay actually he uses their days Which means no one so we could say here.

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No one is able to lay any other foundation again, though He's stressing a more universal application.

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But at any rate to quote the RSV For no other foundation.

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Can anyone lay than that which is laid Jesus Christ st Paul tells us what

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I assume we all of us as Christians agree that Jesus Christ is the foundation of all our apostolic endeavors.

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Indeed. He is the foundation of our lives Now st. Paul doesn't specifically say foundation of our lives

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But I don't think it's a stretch to say that Christ is being presented here as our foundation but at any rate it's at this point in verse 12 where st.

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Paul then says If anyone and here he uses the indefinite a

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T's if Anyone again indicating that he's making sort of a universal statement

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No longer just speaking of himself and Apollo's or even just ministers. He says if anyone

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Builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood a stubble each man's work

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Will become manifest for the day again the judgment will disclose it because it will be revealed with fire in Puri Or by fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done

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I'll call you on of course, as you know, it's the Greek word for of what sort or what kind?

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So what kind of what is he talking about? What kind of? What he's talking about is what sort of work each has done now, this is going to be important in a moment

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In fact, mr. White I noticed on your broadcast you sent to me I counted three times

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Where you claim that basically all that's happening here is the judgment reveals whether ministers of the gospel

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As you said on your broadcast whether they have proper motivations or improper motivations

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This judgment simply discovers again to quote you again the motivations of why people did things

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Now I would argue the text doesn't say this you say this in other words It doesn't say the fire test what sort of motivation people had to do works

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But it says to test what sort of works each man is done now contrary to what you claimed

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These are different kinds of works and the image of gold silver precious stones wood hands double will make that even more clear in a moment

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Now I suppose in defense of what you you said we could say improper motivation could be a subset of what st

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Paul is talking about here if we want to stretch the context a bit But what the text actually says is the fire which represents the judgment will test what sort of work each is done

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Now the church doesn't limit this to some arbitrary notion of proper motives because we let the text speak and it's proper

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Context and we understand that what sort of works would entail lots of kinds of works

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And we'll get back to the kinds of works being spoke of in a minute But I want to correct you on another point mr.

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White and something else you said during your critique of me and by the way were you claimed? I massacred this text and by the way.

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I was deeply hurt When you said that I'm kidding of course I actually got a kick out of that one and and as you know

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James I've said it often. I've always said I like James white I like your passion and your diligence even if I don't agree with you, but at any rate

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You erroneously claimed that the Catholic Church's position is that this fire represents purgatory both here in verse 12 and in verse 15 and and that's not true and You ridiculed the notion by saying well who the who are these who receive the reward without suffering loss?

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How are they in purgatory? Well the Catholic Church has never claimed the fire per se is purgatory the church has never defined

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This is such the fire here is actually the judgment as we'll see in a moment If one wants to find a location for purgatory purgatory is not a place as in you send people over there to a chamber called

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Purgatory the Catholic Church teaches purgatory is as the catechism the Catholic Church paragraph 1472 says a state

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Rooted not in some external imposition of you know by God But proceeding from the nature of sin and the effects of sin on our souls in the context of the revelation of Christ at The judgment so again if you want to find a location for purgatory

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It's found in the subjective experience of those who are being judged and imperfections are found on their souls

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These imperfections that st. Paul speaks of are in perfect Keeping with the biblical notion of for example sins that are not mortal mentioned in first John 5 or you know

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Breaking of the least commandments that Jesus talks about in Matthew 5 19 that one can commit yet remain in the kingdom of God But just so you'll know that the church does not teach and your listeners will know

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It doesn't teach as you've claimed over and over in your radio show that the fire is purgatory

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Let me quote a guy who knows a little bit about Catholicism Pope Benedict the 16th from from his encyclical letter space

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Salvi in paragraph 47. He says quote The fire which both burns and saves is

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Christ himself the judge and Savior The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgment before his gaze all falsehood melts away

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This encounter with him as it burns us transforms and freezes Allowing us to become truly ourselves all that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw pure bluster and it collapses

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Yet in the pain of this encounter when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us

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There lies salvation his gaze the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation as through fire

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But it is a blessed pain in which the holy power of his love steers through us like a flame

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Enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God Now I know you said on on your broadcast that you sent to me that we

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Catholics read into this text The fact that the fire purifies in fact you claimed on that broadcast that There's nothing in here about a purifying fire.

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In fact, let me quote you you said plainly the fire does not purify close quote

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Now I find this to be fascinating because even an evangelical scripture scholar like dr. W Harold Mayer in the expositors

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Bible commentary Who says in a commentary on these very verses that we're talking about?

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Let me quote it here He says fire in the scripture is used figuratively in two ways as a purifying agent and by the way he references

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Matthew 3 11 and Mark 9 49 as two examples of our Lord using fire as a purifying effect and As that which consumes and he gives a bunch of verses so it is fitting symbol

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It is a fitting symbol here for God's judgment as he tests the quality of the Christians work You know any

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B makes a good point there But I also want to point out what you'll find from another Protestant work and a good one called

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Kittles theological dictionary the New Testament volume 6 page 944 Here these

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Protestant scholars teach what I would argue it is impossible for any Christian to ignore

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About this text if he's serious about studying it and that is that st

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Paul is here referring to to quote Kittles. Let me quote he is referring to the idea of an eschatological refining fire and They reference here

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Malachi chapter 3 verse 2 Now if we examine Malachi chapter 3 verses 1 through 3 we discover this is a text that especially verses 1 and 2

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That's either quoted or alluded to six times in the New Testament as fulfilled in John the

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Baptist and Christ and notice what it says prophetically of our Lord it says quote And John the

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Baptist behold I send my messenger to prepare the way before me and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his

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Temple the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight behold he is coming says the Lord of hosts But who can endure the day of his coming and who can stand when he appears for he is like a refiners fire and like fuller soap he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver

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Now isn't this interesting even Protestant scholars? We have some of them have to acknowledge what it seemed to me and listening to miss

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To your radio broadcast that you sent to me You're not willing to admit and that is that st.

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Paul here uses language that indicates He's hearkening back to Malachi and as such it becomes even more obvious st.

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Paul is talking about Christ the judge in his role as purifier. He will also

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Be described in verse 16 by the way And verse 17 as the one who will destroy

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Or consume as well You know those who defile the temple of their bodies the fire of judgment can also denote destruction as dr.

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mayor pointed out in Fact st. Paul says just after finishing his description of the judgment and purgatory in verse 15.

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He says in verse 16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and God's spirit dwells in you if anyone destroys

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God's temple God will destroy him out on the personal pronoun is used here emphasizing the destruction of this person rather than Purification that's a reference to hell

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But at any rate here in verses 12 through 15, which is our focus

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We have a reference to folks being purified from these Imperfections on their way to heaven and I think

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I'm about out of time. But folks this is a textbook definition of purgatory. I Actually had about 36 seconds left.

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You wanted to add anything else? No, I think that'll do it. Okay. I'm being good. Okay All right, thank you very much mr.

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Staples Let me go ahead and and read the entirety of the text at the beginning of my time here according to the grace of God Which was given to me like a wise master builder

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I laid a foundation and other is building on it But each man must be careful how he builds on it for no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid

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Which is Jesus Christ now if any man builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood hay and straw each man's work will become evident for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire and the fire itself will

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Test the quality of each man's work if any man's work which he has built on it remains He'll receive a reward if any man's work is burned up He will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet So as through fire now the context of the preceding nine verses is really quite simple

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Paul is discussing the problems that exist in the Corinthian congregation He has used harsh words with them in the preceding verses referring to them as men of flesh and infants in Christ He refers to the strife and jealousy that exists among them

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He zeroes in on their part on their partisanship the fact that they are saying I am of this Christian leader or that Christian leader

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He reminds them that leaders are but servants of the Lord and that it was the Lord that even gave those servants the opportunity to Preach the gospel to them.

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He writes in verse 6 I planted Apollos watered but God has caused the growth God used Paul and Apollos as means

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But the growth was caused by God not by the Christian leaders themselves at this point Then Paul begins to speak of the role

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Christian leaders have in the work of the church note his words in verse 8 Now he who plants and he waters are one but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor

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For we are God's fellow workers You are God's field God's building verse 8 provides the first reference to reward misthoughts

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And it is clearly in the context of the Christian leaders who labor in the work of ministry It will be significant to note that the phrase receive reward in verse 8 is identical in terminology the same phrase in verse 14

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Since in this context, we know that the planting and watering mention goes back to Paul and Apollos the topic remains consistent

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Throughout this passage Paul then speaks of himself and Apollo says God's fellow workers that his workers owned by God not equal with him

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He uses two terms field and building but picks up only on the second God's building a fellow worker of God Works in God's building and that building is the church this then brings us to the main passage verses 10 through 15

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Give us an illustration of how weighty is to minister in the church and how God will someday Manifest the motivations of the hearts of all those who engage in that work

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Then in verses 16 through 17 Paul adds a further warning speaking of God's certain judgment upon those who do not build but instead tear down or destroy there is an obvious movement between 10 through 15 and 16 through 17 for in 10 through 15 the metaphor remains the construction of a building upon a foundation in 16 through 17 this switches to the metaphor of the temple of God already constructed

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Further in 10 through 15 the certain ones are those who are indeed building upon the foundation Even if they have less than perfect motivations or understanding the certain one in verses 16 through 17 is not building anything at all

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But is instead tearing down and ruining what has already been built This distinction is important as well as we shall see and so we enter into the text itself according the grace of God Which is given to me like a wise master builder

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I laid a foundation and another is building on it But each man must be careful how he builds on it for no man can lay a foundation of the one which is laid

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Which is Jesus Christ Paul continues the context insisting that by God's grace He has laid a foundation knowing that others would build upon that same foundation this foundation

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Of course refers to the work of ministry and building up the church that he has engaged him But there is an element of personal responsibility this part of ministry in Christ Church a man must be careful

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How he builds upon the foundation which Paul reminds us is holy the only foundation of the church is

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Jesus Christ himself the minister is to recognize that ministry in the church is a holy task and He must look well a literal rendering of the

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Greek upon how he goes about this work This leads to further expansion upon this thought in the following section verses 12 and 13

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Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood hay and straw each man's work will become evident for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire and the fire itself will

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Test the quality of each man's work The first thing to see in verse 12 is that we are still talking about the same group

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Christian Workers those under discussion build upon the foundation We will see that in verses 16 through 17

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Paul refers to a different group those who do not build but instead tear down So we have one group who build upon the one foundation, but with different quality materials

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And obviously the terms gold silver precious stones wood hay and straw are all figures of speech.

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They're all metaphors Christian leaders are not known for having an abundance of gold silver or precious stones Let alone is the building being done here a literal activity either

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These are terms referring as Paul himself puts it to the quality of each man's work some labor selflessly and in obscurity with motivations pure and honorable while others have mixed motivations tinge to a lesser or greater degree by Selfishness and vain glory during this lifetime

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We cannot necessarily know which Christian leaders even within the bounds of Orthodox teaching and practice are doing what they do with Motivations that are pleasing to God, but Paul is reminding us that such will not always be the case

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God will reward those who have labored diligently for his glory in that day when all the secrets of men's hearts will be revealed

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Paul says that each man's work will become evident for the day will show the nature of the Christians ministers work will be made plain and Clear the lack of clarity that exists during this lifetime will no longer cloud our vision at the judgment

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What a tremendously sobering thought for those who labor and building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ God who searches the hearts will reveal our true motivations on that day a

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Declaration they loci will be made about the nature of the works of all those who worked in the church

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But please note This is everyone all Saints all workers in the church will experience this judgment from the greatest

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Saints to the least in the work There is no room here for any idea of anyone bypassing this judgment

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But it remains the same judgment the judgment by fire of the works They have done the revelation of whether one's ministerial works are precious and lasting or surface level and temporary will be accomplished by fire

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Obviously fire differentiates at the most basic level between gold and wood Silver and straw precious stones and stubble the precious elements withstand the fire's presence

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Whereas the others are consumed in their entirety Given that it has already been established that gold and silver etc are figures for the quality of men's works

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So it follows inexorably that fire refers to a testing that makes its verdict as clear as the destruction of wood

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Hay and stubble by the raging flames of a fire The works that were not done to God's glory are destroyed and those works having the proper character pass through unharmed

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But please note the verb use the fire is a pocket loop to tie This is a term of revelation.

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It does not mean to purify. It does not mean to cleanse It does not mean to purge the object of the actions in this verse is always the works

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The day will manifest the character of the works the fire will reveal the nature of the works

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And so we see in verses 14 and 15 if any man's work which he is built on it remains

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He will receive a reward if any man's work is burned up. He will suffer loss, but he himself be saved yet So as through fire the context continues unbroken note the repetition of the preceding concept of building on the foundation if a man's work built upon the

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Foundation of Christ in the church remains in the presence of the judgment of God. He receives a reward a misthoss

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But in direct parallel if another workers labors are burned up. He will suffer loss now the opposite of the reception of reward is to suffer loss the

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Greek term that Paul uses Zamiyya Ohm I or Zamiyya Ohm is Translated by the vast majority of recognized translations as suffer loss and there is a reason for this

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Despite the fact that you can render the term as punish its normative meaning especially the New Testament refers to experiencing the opposite of gain that is loss and often

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What is not gained is found in the immediate context the words used for example in Philippians 3 8

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Paul says more than that I count all things to be lost in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my

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Lord for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them But rubbish that I may gain

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Christ obviously this does not mean Paul has been punished But has suffered the loss of all things the same is true in Jesus used the term in Matthew 16 26 for what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul or what will a man gain given exchange for his soul in first Corinthians 3 15

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The term is used in a context that provides a direct correlation to the term the one whose work remains

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Receives reward so the one whose work is burned up does not hence Suffer loss if you want to see further information on this you can see the theological dictionary the

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New Testament volume 2 page 8 8 8 We are reminded however that despite the seriousness of the loss of reward for the

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Christian worker We are still talking about those who have found salvation the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ Paul tells us that despite suffering loss these are saved yet So as through fire note that the text does not say that they are saved having been purified by fire

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They do so as one who has escaped from a fire in his house having lost all but saved his life as One commentary has expressed it quote the fire tests the work

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Destroying what is of poor quality imperishable a wage will be paid only for good durable work

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The man whose work will not endure the searching test of judgment will suffer a loss Like one escaping from a burning house he will be saved

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But his work and his reward will be lost This metaphor clearly teaches the responsibility of ministers the gospel who will be rewarded or punished for the manner in which they have fulfilled their ministry and Quote, I know that the commentary.

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I just read is the Roman Catholic Jerome Bible commentary Which goes on to directly state that this text does not teach the doctrine purgatory

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However, the doctrine can find quote support and quote in the text a far cry from the claim that this text clearly

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Teaches purgatory So let's summarize first The passage is about Christian workers not all the

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Christian faithful any wider application would only be secondary in nature Secondly, the passage says nothing about the purification of individuals

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Works are tested in this passage Rome teaches souls are purified from the temporal punishment of sins by suffering satis passio and purgatory

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But there is nothing about temporal punishments It's not as passio or suffering of individuals for their sins anywhere in this passage at all

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All these are extraneous to the text itself Further the insertion of the Roman concepts into the passage turns it on its head

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Remember those with works of gold silver and precious stones that is Christian workers who had godly motivations

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Appear in this passage Their works are subject to the same testing as the others if this fire is at all relevant to purgatory and certainly historically that has

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Been the understanding then are we to assume that even those with godly motives suffer? Are there no

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Saints involved in building upon the foundation modern Roman Catholics have started to move away from the term fire though this was an arguably what attracted the attention of Rome the passage in the first place and Seek to focus more upon the suffering of all of a loss so that only the second group is seen as being relevant to purgatory

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Of course, this is made possible by the constant repetition of the assertion Rome has never officially declared the meaning of this passage nor that there is fire in purgatory nor that purgatory is a place nor that We experienced time in purgatory

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Etc. Etc. Etc. The fact that one can go into history and determine with great clarity

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What was taught and believed only a few centuries ago does not seem to matter in this case Anyway, the text simply will not bear the weight that is placed upon it by Roman tradition

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Paul knew nothing of purgatory Instead this same author the

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Apostle Paul informs us of the real and only source of purification and cleansing for the

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Christian the same writer who wrote the words of first Corinthians Chapter 3 also wrote these words to Titus in chapter 2 verse 14

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Speaking of Jesus Christ It says who gave himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people for his own possession

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Zealous for good deeds. So who is it that does the purification? Is this something that we?

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somehow Contribute to through our experience of sada spacio in purgatory

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Or is it something that Jesus Christ does not simply for the alleged eternal sins?

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But instead as it says in the text for every lawless deed

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Even if one accepts the unbiblical distinction, and I believe we looked at first John 5 We would see that it's a unbiblical distinction is made there

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Even Roman Catholic exegesis recognized that John is talking there about apostasy not some kind of class of eternal sins mortal sins versus venial sins

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But even if one were to accept that The assertion of the Apostle Paul is That Christ gave himself to redeem us from every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people of his own possession either his death can purify us and make us ready for our entrance into the very presence of the

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Father or He cannot the addition of anything to that Is I think one of the key issues in regards to the gospel as it is taught by the

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Bible and by the Roman Catholic Church and so as we look at this text, these are the issues that we need to be focusing upon even if we could find places as we can in the

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Bible where the term fire is used of Purification is that how it's being used here?

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Or do we not have certain verbs that are specifically used by the Apostle Paul that have certain meanings can mr

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Staples provide us with Lexical sources that tell us that here in first Corinthians 3 remember any word is defined by its context

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Any word has a semantic domain and then when you use the word you place it in a particular context and that determines the meaning

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Of the word can we find lexical sources that say that the verbs found in this text actually refer to Purification when mr.

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Staples gave his interpretation of this text in the Catholic answers published CDs God's perfect plan purgatory and indulgences explained in the fifth

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CD when he went through first Corinthians chapter 3 very closely Eight times he used purified

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Purification or purging eight times the question will be is that found anywhere in first Corinthians chapter 3?

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That is really where the debate needs to focus. I believe today so I'm going to wrap up and it almost exact same time period that Tim did with about 30 seconds left to go there and Let folks know you're listening to a debate on the dividing line between James White and Tim Staples We're finished with the opening statements and now

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Tim will have eight minutes For a response and then I'll have eight minutes after that. So sir your time begins.

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Okay a lot to choose from here, but first of all I find it odd how

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You as well as other Protestants that I read separate So radically the works from the person and granted in verses 14 and 15

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We see if any man's work abides which he's built he will receive a reward if any man's work shall be burned

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No doubt. There is an emphasis on the works. However It's not quite as clear -cut as Mr.

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White is making it sound because it's not only the works that go through the fire of the judgment

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But he himself there are no works floating around separately from someone this betrays a very poor understanding of the human person

32:51

But most importantly it contradicts the scripture because the scripture says he himself shall be saved yet So as by fire, so he goes through the fire not just the works

33:02

I also noticed both in his critique of me before and now

33:08

He asked the question where are temporal punishments due to sin mentioned there nowhere to be found he says well again

33:16

I say this is not difficult But perhaps with this are wimpy modern Sentimental view of Jesus in popular

33:22

Christian culture is a fluffy little guy who would never cause anyone pain We need to point out what Jesus himself says in Revelation 3 19 referencing back to Proverbs 3 12

33:32

In fact, I'll start at verse 11 my son do not despise the Lord's discipline or be wary of his reproof for the

33:39

Lord reproves him whom he loves as a father the son in whom he delights in Revelation 3 18

33:45

Jesus himself says I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire There again, we have the image of Jesus as the the refiner and the refining fire in verse 19

33:56

Those whom I love I rebuke and I chase and he who overcomes verse 21 says

34:01

I will grant him descent with me on my Throne, I think it's important that we understand that we see this theme of Purifying fire throughout sacred scripture.

34:13

St. Paul is not speaking in a vacuum or writing in a vacuum here For example, and we also see clear texts of scripture that talk about how we are made holy through the discipline of the

34:25

Lord First Peter 1 6 and 7 says in this you rejoice though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials

34:32

So that the genuineness of your faith more precious than gold Which though perishable is tested by fire may redound to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ revelation being

34:44

Apocalypse a there or Hebrews chapter 12 Which references the discipline aspect of our being made holy our earthly father's disciplined us for a short time and at their pleasure

34:56

But he disciplines us for our good in order that we may share his holiness very important In order that we may share in his holiness for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant but later it yields the peaceful or peaceable fruit of righteousness to Kaios Sunnis Justification to those who have been trained by it

35:17

Verse 12 strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the

35:23

Lord The text of scripture are many and and varied first Peter 3 12 be beloved

35:30

Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you as though something strange were happening

35:36

But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings That you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed or st.

35:44

Paul himself in Romans 8 17 says we must quote suffer with him in Order that we may be glorified together with him.

35:53

I would argue that this is Clearly what is going on in 1st

35:59

Corinthians 3 at the judgment those with these? imperfections that are are mentioned here will experience the pain of the

36:07

Discovery of how holy the Lord is and how unholy they are But thanks be to God These in 1st

36:13

Corinthians 3 will be saved as the text says Because of the nature of these imperfections though they keep them from final salvation and that's important This is obvious from verse 15, which says they will be saved yet.

36:27

So as through fire They're only kept from the beatific vision

36:33

Temporarily that is what the church means by temporal punishment. These punishments are not eternal.

36:40

They're temporary Now, what about the problem specifically with sin being? mentioned here by the church

36:49

James you claim that this text has nothing to do with sin Well, I would ask your listeners to ask this question

36:56

What is it that keeps us from full communion or as my Baptist friends will say fellowship with God?

37:02

It's a sin Psalm 66 18 and a whole host of biblical texts We could fight tell us sin separate us from God and not only sin

37:10

But any defects or impurity caused by sin such as bad habits attachment to sin.

37:15

That's right There will be none of this in heaven These keep us from God and this is precisely what we see in 1st

37:21

Corinthians 3 the souls mentioned that suffer loss are those who have would pay and Stubble and I would argue on their souls because you cannot separate as mr.

37:33

White has done works from people These are imperfection that must be cleansed purified removed whatever you want to say

37:41

They must be removed why according to the text in verse 15 if any man's work is burned

37:47

He will suffer loss though. He himself will be saved yet. So as through fire

37:52

They are removed so that these individuals can receive final salvation.

37:58

That's what the text says This separation is here revealed to be temporal that is separation from that final separation

38:05

Hence the punishment from the Lord the discipline of the Lord if you want to call it that is revealed to be temporal as well

38:13

Now what about what? Mr. White mentioned about the reward of 1st Corinthians 3 14? What's the difference between the reward in verse 14 given to those who?

38:22

We assume had nothing to burn up and the salvation received in verse 15 by those who do Mr. White has said this doesn't make sense.

38:29

How can there be you know verse how can there be reward in verse 14? It's the fire mentioned in verse 13 is purgatory.

38:37

How can this be purgatory? Mr. White has said in the tape that he sent me if you have gold there

38:45

How can the gold be in purgatory now, it's obvious. Mr. White did not understand that the fire

38:51

Represents in Catholic teaching the judgment of Christ and I quoted from our Holy Father Pope Benedict the 16th

38:57

That is an official magisterial teaching that those who have no imperfections that need to be burned will go immediately to heaven

39:04

That's what the text indicates. They're not in purgatory Purgatory again is found in the subjective experience of the individuals going through the judgment not in some

39:13

Sacred cubicle over there somewhere now as far as the reward in 1st

39:18

Corinthians 3 14 The answer is simple st Paul tells us for example in Romans 2 Verses 6 and 7 that among other things the rewards for Christians who perform good works in Christ are not only salvation

39:30

He lives glory honor in corruption and eternal life as rewards for good works

39:36

It's obvious that these souls who need no purification are are receiving to use st

39:41

Paul's language a greater degree of glory In fact, we see st. Paul using multiple metaphors for degrees of glory in heaven in the same letter in 1st

39:50

Corinthians 15 41 Where he says there's one glory the Sun another the moon another the stars for star differs from star in glory

39:59

So it is with the resurrection of the dead. That's we see varying levels of reward in heaven

40:05

That's what's being referred to here in 1st Corinthians 3 the individuals Okay, Tim, that's that's that's eight minutes you have to slow you down there for a second

40:19

Okay, all right, thank you you're listening to a debate between James White and Tim Staples Let me just remind you very very quickly before I go to my section.

40:27

We will be opening the phones in approximately 20 minutes or so if please don't be calling right now.

40:34

We already have a couple folks do that but In about 20 minutes from now, you'll be able to call and get online and please once again make your questions on the topic 1st

40:46

Corinthians chapter 3 specifically and as clear and succinct as possible questions about well all sorts of other issues will only

40:56

Detract from the focus of the debate. So with that my my response My desire is to stay in this particular text

41:05

I could quote all sorts of texts From other places and then I would have to to if they're going to be relevant

41:13

Demonstrate that the topic of those texts is the same topic that Paul is addressing here and I would submit to you that mr

41:20

Staples did not demonstrate that any of the text that he quoted had anything to do with Paul's purpose and his words here instead

41:27

He's grabbing words and assuming that these words have the same meaning wherever they're found.

41:33

And that is a very common error of Isagetical interpretation the text of Scripture you simply cannot assume that just because the guy assume ace appears over here

41:42

It's being used in the same sense as the text you're examining over there And so for example, we saw

41:48

Revelation 3 and Hebrews 12, but these are talking about sufferings and purifications in this life

41:53

They have nothing to do with the idea that before you enter into the presence of God There's going to have to be a post -mortem cleansing or purification of your soul before you can experience that you're having to undergo

42:07

Satispacio to be cleansed from the temporal punishments that cling to your soul that you did not

42:12

Manage to deal with through the penances and sacraments of the church during life. And so without making that connection

42:19

I would simply submit that all of those Had nothing to do with this Some of them were not even written by Paul or at least you could say well at least the same author said this

42:27

But one that was that really struck me was the assertion that Mr.

42:33

Staples made that Romans 8 17 Is what is going on in first Corinthians 3 but Romans 8 17 is saying and if children then heirs heirs of God and join

42:44

Heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with him that we may also be glorified together with him

42:51

This is this is talking about now. This isn't talking about some post -mortem experience of purification of the soul

42:59

And and so when we come back to the text We were told that the text says verse 15 refers to sins that have to be removed before receiving final salvation

43:09

Where does it say that I even quoted the drone Bible commentary, which gave the same interpretation that I did

43:17

Let's once again focus our attention here We can find other passages in the

43:22

Bible where fire has something to do with purification But we have not heard anything from mr.

43:28

Staples where this text mentions purification He said well, there are sins that have to be burned up here.

43:34

Well, actually it's talking about Demonstrating what kind of work

43:40

Christian leaders have done what kind of work? There is a revelation an

43:46

Apocalypse that takes place at the judgment People are going to know which Christian leaders did what they did for the right reasons and which

43:54

Christian leaders were simply seeking to gain followers, that's what this text is talking about and We have yet to see how apocalypsis or the fire or the giving of a demonstration or showing what kind how any of this has anything to do with the removal of Temporal punishments of sins and the completion of a sanctification process that must take place before one enters into the very presence of God That's that would require a complete change of context.

44:25

You'd have to have a complete Modification of the context in first Corinthians 3 10 through 15 from what's come before and what comes after But as we said in our opening statement, there is no change of context

44:36

The context is very clear. We do not have to insert a tremendous amount of material in here to do this kind of thing

44:44

Now we were we were also told well These the gold silver precious stones are different levels of rewards folks.

44:53

Gold is already pure That's the whole point of saying that they built with gold there are going to be people who had absolutely pure motivations here only by the work of the

45:02

Holy Spirit, but they did and yet they their works are tested just like everyone else's and So to to I really believe twist the text to say ah

45:14

But it says that they go through the fire see they go through the fire themselves Even the drone

45:20

Bible commentary recognizes that this is a way of speaking That it's simply saying they have suffered loss and to say that they do they are saved

45:28

It's so as to fire is not some secondary statement that has nothing to do with the preceding statement

45:33

It is a statement that expands upon that and explains what it means the nature of their loss the nature of their loss is they have lost everything that they thought they were building because they did not build it properly and They are saved as a person who has escaped from a burning house

45:49

That's what it's talking about to turn that into the concept that well They themselves are being purified by this fire is again to engage in absolutely wishful

46:00

Eisegesis where else does Paul teach this where else this requires again an external authority and it is my assertion

46:08

That just as we just recently listened to mr. Staples talk about how

46:15

Luke chapter 1 has nuptial language so that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit when you have an external

46:23

Authority when you have an external dogmatic authority specifically here in the dogmatic teachings the magisterium of the

46:30

Roman Catholic Church This becomes the overriding concern in the exegesis of the text of the

46:36

Bible it is no longer What Paul would have understood his words to mean or what his original readers would have understood his words to mean now it becomes

46:45

Well Rome has said this Rome has used this text and even though I would assert and I would just simply suggest to anyone

46:54

Go pick up a book by FX Shoop Called purgatory published by tan

47:00

Read that and tell me that Roman Catholics have not for a long period of time Believed things about purgatory with papal approval

47:09

That are no longer believed. We just for example. We just were just told that a single document from Benedict the 16th

47:17

Provides us with evidently an infallible interpretation of this text where this fire becomes a judgment of Christ Well are there not all sorts of other papal pronouncements that we could look to?

47:28

That would give us completely different understandings of this how many people have thought that the promise of wearing the scapular

47:38

That Mary would descend into purgatory and release you on the Saturday after your death Had to do with time and now we're told that what they just misunderstood

47:45

But how many people lived and died on the basis of those things you see the addition of external authorities does not clarify the text

47:53

It only muddles the text and so my questions remain You can't go to other texts and say well fire means purification over here

48:01

So that means that that means it has to mean it here No you have to establish that you have to true exegesis means that you go into the text and you demonstrate that in this context as It as it rolls along That that is what is being taught and that is not what is being taught that wasn't established

48:20

In the presentation that was that was just made and so once again Focus your attention upon this does revealing the kind of works mean the same thing as making the final preparation for entrance in the presence of God by the removal of the temporal punishments of sins from the soul as Sadas Pacio is meant to be in purgatory.

48:42

That is the question of the debate today All right with that we move on to the next section.

48:49

Let me again. Let the listeners know where we are here We have so far had the first two 15 minute opening statements eight minute rebuttals now each will have five minutes for cross -examination

49:02

Tim will get to ask me questions for five minutes, and then I'll ask him questions for five minutes Then we'll have eight minutes statements at the end

49:10

I will try to be as succinct and concise there to maybe open up a little more time for callers if we can and Then we will start taking phone calls.

49:18

So that means in approximately Ten minutes We will open up the phone lines for your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

49:27

It's eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one. So five minutes

49:32

Tim. Go ahead first and in the audio that you sent to me you said that you have developed your understanding of And and your ability to defend the divinity of Christ by demonstrating

49:50

Christ being referred to as Yahweh And you've done that by listening to the other side and and so forth.

49:58

Is that correct? You've developed your understanding to where you're a more effective presenter of the divinity of Christ I think what you're referring to very quickly was my statement that in listening to Greg Stafford's Attacks upon the identification of Jesus Yahweh that greatly increased the

50:16

Solid nature of the arguments that I presented presented in the forgotten Trinity is that that's what you're referring to. Yes.

50:21

Yes Yes, so you've gotten better in your presentation Well, it's no different in the church over 2 ,000 years and thousands of minds

50:31

And some of the greatest minds that have ever been on the planet Would you agree that it would be reasonable to say that there can be development of doctrine?

50:40

With over 2 ,000 years never an essential change But a development and understanding since you've had it in your own life

50:47

Are we reasonable are we talking about the general concept of the Newman's that development hypothesis?

50:53

Are we talking about the definition of the doctrine of purgatory and then its development?

50:59

Since say the Council of Constance what I'm saying, isn't it reasonable that the church can grow in the way that she presents?

51:07

Doctrine there's no essential change that has occurred in the nature of purgatory But our understanding and our and the manner in which we explicate it can develop.

51:17

Are you saying that that's unreasonable? Well, I would say that the change that has taken place is not a development.

51:24

It is a mutation There is a difference between a change in mutation One is is a better way of expressing a truth

51:30

The other is a is having one said X and now saying not X or not

51:35

X but Y is Yeah, can you prove that? Well, if you're if you're asked asking about changes in the teaching of the doctrine purgatory

51:43

Yeah, I think that it's it is beyond question that until yes beyond question but until recent times when a person stood before the relics in the castle church in Wittenberg in 1510 and Was told that they would receive an indulgence of a certain number of months

52:04

For saying a certain number of our fathers while standing in front of a feather that was supposed to be from Gabriel's wing that person believed that that was a temporal concept and The church used the money he paid to go see it to build st

52:18

Peter's and so I would say that on a historical level it can be easily

52:24

Demonstrated that for hundreds of years the concept of indulgences and time in purgatory was one of the primary motivating factors in all sorts of Religious devotion shall we say?

52:37

even even if What you're saying was true. This is not a change in the teaching of the church

52:45

Where has the church changed essentially in her teaching that well,

52:50

I'm not sure what this has to do with purgatory but but Tim one of our biggest questions always of you guys is how come you get to determine what

52:59

Is and is not teaching when I quote a Pope? Well, you know, that's not that wasn't a conciliar document that wasn't there's our other thing

53:07

But then someone else can quote a Pope and all of a sudden that's an incredible thing I'm sorry quoted a

53:12

Pope you haven't quoted. I am of course I am of course referring to many previous encounters that I've had with yourself and other folks the

53:19

Catholic answers But okay, you're asking on to another question because you're you're not giving me any real

53:26

Change in teaching because in fact, mr. White there hasn't been an essential change in teaching.

53:32

We're talking about Changes in emphasis in the way that we present the truth of purgatory, but let me ask you another question

53:40

Can you tell me where? Improper motivations are found in first Corinthians 3 you said this is what's being judged here

53:48

Yeah, I presented this my opening statement again Paul is saying let each man look well to how he builds upon the foundation

53:57

For a judgment is going to be made showing what kind of works he did

54:02

That what kind ha poi on tells us that we're talking here about an examination of what kinds of works now

54:11

We're obviously not thinking here that we're talking about people who were destroying the church

54:17

They were actually building upon the foundation. That's why I made the distinction between verses 16 and 17

54:23

But what else can ha poi on mean and the revelation of what it means what kinds of works they did then what?

54:29

Motivations they had whether they were seeking to glorify Christ whether they did so for the right reasons as Paul and Apollos are doing or Not so good reasons as we see throughout first Corinthians where we have all sorts of people that are causing problems

54:43

That's okay a great example of Isaac Jesus, okay Excuse me

54:50

Tim Tim your time is up. It's my turn. Okay. That was five minutes So I get to ask five minutes and we will

54:57

We have someone else watching me to make sure and anyone can listen to this tape We're being very very careful on the time.

55:03

Okay, you said in your You said in your presentation On purgatory quote all scholars agree this text is dealing with the judgment of mankind after death and quote

55:14

Is it not true that many scholars restrict this text the judgment of the works of Christian leaders not to the general judgment of all?

55:20

mankind Can you ask that again? You said in your presentation all scholars agree that this text is dealing with the judgment of mankind after death

55:29

Is it not true that many scholars restrict this text the judgment of the works of Christian leaders not to the judge general judgment of all mankind

55:37

Yes, if yeah, there are scholars that that would limit that Yeah, okay in your interpretation of this text on the fifth

55:43

CD of your purgatory set you used a term purify or purification or purging Eight times could you please give us which

55:50

Greek terms in first Corinthians chapter 3 should be translated here as purifying and what? Lexical sources give this as the meaning

55:57

No, I I didn't give you lexical sources. What I did is is gave you an example from for example

56:05

Kittles Greek theological dictionary of the New Testament, which you also quoted where you have scholars and these are

56:13

Protestant scholars who acknowledge that This text refers back to Malachi chapter 3 verses 1 through 3

56:22

Where Jesus is clearly revealed to be in a prophetic sense The one who will purify at the judgment the people of God Okay, so we have an antecedent in the

56:35

Old Testament That's being referred back to and I and I quoted a Protestant scholar to to show that which verb however in First Corinthians chapter 3 means to purify that wasn't my my argument

56:47

James There is no verb that means to purify there doesn't have to be okay. What what in the

56:53

New Testament? What is the verb for purification? I don't know. Tell me katharidzo.

56:59

Is it used in in first Corinthians chapter 3? I I already answered that. Okay, not to my knowledge.

57:05

It's not okay You said in your presentation quote Catholics and Protestants also agree that some of the works

57:11

Mentioned here in first Corinthians 3 are being burned up and some are being purified in quote

57:17

Wouldn't you agree that where do Protestants agree? And if you want to just talk about German liberal Protestants, I guess that's okay

57:23

But where do Protestants agree with such a reading of the text and where does the text ever use such language?

57:28

How does showing what kind of work something is equate to being purified from temporal punishments of sin?

57:36

Great because as I was going to say before my time ran out when it talks about kind of work

57:43

Sins are a kind of work you limit kind of works to Motivations but the word motivation is nowhere to be found in here

57:54

And again, I'll grant you that that could be a subset of what we're talking about But kind of works includes sins and and when you further

58:05

Consider that the language being used here not a verb for purifying but the metaphor of fog fire which is used for purification in the

58:15

New Testament as Well as in the Old Testament as Protestant scholars. I only quoted two of them from Kittles Greek theological dictionary and Dr.

58:27

Mayer in the expositors Bible commentary Yes, but dr. Mayer actually says so is a fitting symbol here for God's judgment

58:34

But he does not say anything about purification in the quotation that you provided at least as you quoted it in in that I missed something.

58:42

Yes, you missed that. Dr. Mayer said that fire is a Is used in in two senses in Scripture one as purifying and the other as consuming

58:55

And he's specifically referencing 1st Corinthians chapter 3 Thus I and I agree with him you may not agree with him but this is a

59:04

Protestant scholar who acknowledges that fire is in fact used and it's it's certainly it used for Purification and when you consider that you have these kinds of works that are being burned up These people are going through fire.

59:19

Not just the works, but them it is entirely Entirely reasonable to conclude that these works are being purified are the people

59:29

Destroyed are the people in this text ever the direct object of the action of fire They go through fire

59:36

But it says yet so as through fire even the drone biblical commentary recognizes that that what that what that means

59:42

So is that the only text you believe that they are that fire is the direct object of a purifying of them?

59:48

That's the one text that you did you use? Yes Through in fact, I would Back up here.

59:54

They all Go through the fire both both Those who have no works that burn up and those who do they all go through the fire of judgment

01:00:02

The fire is symbolic of judgment. However, okay, Tim those who if I could finish but you're gonna have eight minutes

01:00:10

You're next up anyways, so no reason to hold off the callers folks are already calling

01:00:15

At eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one very quickly

01:00:22

To keep everyone knowing where we're going right now. Mr. Staples will have eight minutes to conclude his thoughts

01:00:27

I will have eight minutes to conclude mine I will try to be as concise as I can and then we will start taking your phone calls

01:00:34

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one Tim you have eight minutes Well, I boy it this thing goes by way too fast but I do appreciate you having me on and I think

01:00:47

This this time has been fruitful and but I guess if I could toss out a few final thoughts

01:00:53

First I think everyone listening to me needs to realize something You've been listening to a man in James White who

01:01:00

I respect greatly as a man and as one who is very fervent in his beliefs and I want to be clear on that but you're also listening to a man who can keep a straight face and say that St.

01:01:09

James taught justification by faith alone Even though st. James says you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

01:01:16

Which is a fascinating way to approach scripture to say the least But when it comes to we poor

01:01:21

Catholics exegeting first Corinthians 3 We can't say this refers to the judgment of Christ as a fulfillment of or at least a reference back to Malachi 3 1 2 3

01:01:31

Which prophetically speaks of Christ as a judge who will quote sit as a refiner and purifier of silver?

01:01:37

And he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver Even though Protestant scholars as I mentioned as well as Catholic do see an obvious reference here back to Malachi But we can't say there's any purification going on here in spite of this

01:01:53

Even though the text refers to certain kinds of works as I mentioned some of which need to be burned up and some which don't

01:02:01

And these works according to mr. White have nothing to do with imperfections on the souls of these individuals

01:02:07

So but what we see is that these works are so radically attached to these individuals that not only the works

01:02:14

But these individuals themselves Must go through the fire of judgment or as mr.

01:02:20

White said as through fire why because we're not talking it's we're talking about a metaphor of judgment

01:02:26

It's not real fire. Their souls are not being lit on fire But as through fire they suffer loss in order to finally be saved

01:02:35

And even though there are certain kinds of works represented here that are clearly keeping these individuals from final salvation

01:02:41

They're keeping these folks from heaven until they are removed Through fire and even though we know it's on 66 18 and a host of scriptures reveal

01:02:51

That it is sin and the effects of sin that keep us from full fellowship with God We can't say sin is involved here folks.

01:02:59

The bottom line is that is bogus Sin and the effects of sin are being described quite effectively here for those who have eyes to see now

01:03:08

Then I also have to say that I do see hope here. Hope I say because mr.

01:03:15

White clearly did not understand the Catholic position on this text when he claims

01:03:21

That you know, how can this be purgatory since you have gold there? How can gold be in purgatory?

01:03:26

It was obvious. He didn't understand that the fire represents judgment the judgment of Christ in Catholic magisterial teaching as I have quoted and those who have no imperfections that need to be burned up go to heaven immediately

01:03:39

They're not in purgatory again Purgatory is found in the subjective experience of the individuals going through the judgment not in some sacred cubicle over there with purgatory on the door also

01:03:51

Mr. White has claimed, you know, what is the reward spoken of here in 1st Corinthians 3 14 that the individuals receive that have

01:03:59

Nothing to burn up. It can't be salvation because they're all going to receive that right? Well, the answer is simple

01:04:05

St Paul tells us in Romans 2 6 and 7 as I said before that among other things the rewards for Christians who perform good works

01:04:13

In Christ are glory honor in corruption and eternal life It's obvious that these souls who need no purification are receiving to use st

01:04:22

Paul's language a great a greater degree of glory and remember this we see st

01:04:28

Paul using multiple metaphors for degrees of glory and heaven in the same letter of 1st Corinthians 15 41 remember there's one glory of the

01:04:36

Sun another of the moon another of the stars For star differs from star in glory.

01:04:42

So it is with the resurrection of the dead How much more clear can it be that folks will receive different levels of reward?

01:04:49

I did not say that the gold Silver and wood. Hey and stubborn stubble represent different levels of reward

01:04:57

They do not they represent different kinds of works At any rate the individuals who have their their works burned up suffer loss.

01:05:07

What loss do they suffer? They suffer the loss of the degree of glory. They would have had if they did not have these imperfections we also have to say that they suffer greatly because they would have a much more profound sense than we do of the nature of These imperfections or sins that are keeping them back from experiencing heaven or the beatific vision

01:05:26

That's the very root of their suffering as our Holy Father has pointed out However, this suffering according to the text is temporal and they are purified.

01:05:36

Yes Purified these imperfections are removed and though the verb purify isn't used there.

01:05:42

That's what is happening These imperfections are being removed by the refiners fire and they are finally saved the bottom line here

01:05:51

Is that I believe mr. White has failed to show how I have massacred the scriptures

01:05:57

But really who cares about Tim Staples? Anyway, what matters here is truth. Mr White's attempts to show the teaching of the

01:06:05

Catholic Church is an error have failed but there is good news as I said before Mr.

01:06:10

White obviously did not understand the Catholic position on this and in other important ways

01:06:16

But mr. White is at least open to the dialogue and for that I am most grateful to you

01:06:22

James Scripture says rebuke a wise man and he will love thee consider yourself rebuked

01:06:27

But I only do so out of great charity toward you and all of your listeners and for those of you listening

01:06:33

Check out our website at Catholic answers at Catholic comm you can email me there as well

01:06:38

But I would finally exhort all of us not to follow as st Paul says in 1st Timothy 4 7 godless and silly myths and quite frankly, you're going to get a lot of silly myths with mr

01:06:50

White with all due respect Train yourself in godliness for while bodily training is of some value

01:06:56

Godliness is of value in every way as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come

01:07:02

This saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance for to this end We toil and strive because we have our hopes set on the

01:07:08

Living God and I will leave you at least in this section with one of my favorite verses of the Old Testament Syrac 428 which says fight for the truth unto the death and God will fight for you, please folks

01:07:20

Don't fight for the opinions of James White or John Calvin or any other fallible man giving nothing but fallible opinions fight for truth

01:07:28

And folks when it comes to truth We have the fullness of it in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ in AD 33 and presently presided over by Benedict the 16th where we have proclaimed one

01:07:42

Lord one faith and one baptism for 2 ,000 years and I hope to hear from some of you soon not only on the phone lines right now

01:07:51

But also via email. God bless you All right. Thank you very much My eight -minute closing statement,

01:07:58

I believe do we have one line left open or we full up right now? We have I'm sorry. Well, okay. All right, so we'll get get to this as quickly as we can all right, first I would like to point out that the citation of W Harold Mayer, he specifically says as Tim himself cites it

01:08:16

Is used figuratively in two ways as a purifying agent in Matthew 3 11 and Mark 9 49 and as that which consumes

01:08:23

So as a fitting symbol here for God's judgment notice the purifying agent, which of course is mr

01:08:28

Staples whole position is the position that dr Mayer doesn't give for first Corinthians chapter 3 as he cites it

01:08:34

I would encourage folks to Get past the rhetoric that we just heard the silly myths

01:08:41

Mr. White doesn't understand the Catholic position when Tim is giving a position that he knows there are many

01:08:46

Catholic scholars who would agree with me Today against him on this on this matter He he probably would disagree for example

01:08:54

With Richard McBrien when he said quote there is for all practical purposes. No biblical basis for the

01:08:59

Doctrine of Purgatory That is not to say there is no basis at all of the doctrine But only that there is no clear biblical basis for it

01:09:05

He would simply dismiss those folks you have to do some homework for yourself But I hope you look past the rhetoric and the rah -rah going on there.

01:09:13

The only thing we were missing to recreate the 1996 debate we had was the Roman Catholic in the audience that yelled out purgant of Eucharist and Then everybody starts clapping as if somehow yelling out the word

01:09:25

Eucharist is an argument in a debate That doesn't actually help us at all

01:09:32

We we just heard that well, you know You got to be careful Mr.

01:09:37

White there thinks that James believed in justification by faith. I've never seen mr. Staples respond to the 24 pages of exegesis

01:09:44

I've provided of James chapter 2 in the God who justifies and I honestly don't believe that he would be capable of interacting with it

01:09:50

Though I would challenge him to do so be glad to debate him on that subject But remember I did mention and you can go back to the archives

01:09:57

It was just last week that mr. Staples answered a question Catholic answers live Where he defended as a biblical concept the idea that Mary is the spouse of the

01:10:06

Holy Spirit now, there is nothing Farther from history tradition and scripture than that concept nothing whatsoever

01:10:12

No one in the early church had any concept of anything like that. And yet mr. Staples has presented that soberly as Being something you can actually trace

01:10:22

Through Episcopal of the Book of Judges, even though Episcopal never appears in the Book of Judges in the Greek Septuagint But be that as it may

01:10:28

I would encourage you to look past that rhetoric and realize that mr Staples has failed to show us any purification in this text

01:10:35

He's gone to all sorts of other texts But he has not been able to demonstrate that any of those texts can be drawn back to first Corinthians chapter 3 that overthrows the immediate

01:10:44

Context mr. Staples has failed to provide any Contextually based connection between any of those other texts he is cited most of which had to do with suffering in this life

01:10:53

Especially Romans 8 17 which in the very next verse says it's talking about suffering in this life.

01:10:58

Mr Staples has failed to show us where the actions of fire in this text are Purifying he's asserted it but he hasn't been able to show us where the actual words mean that he's assumed it based upon his

01:11:11

External authorities. Mr. Staples has failed to show us that Paul has moved his discussion to the cleansing of sins before entrance into God's Presence he has not been able to show us sins or anything like that in this particular text

01:11:25

Now some of you Roman Catholics were sort of wondering Wow, this guy doesn't understand anything about what

01:11:31

Roman Catholics believe when when he talks about purgatory and What is that based upon?

01:11:37

Well, that's based upon saying well, you know, it's a this this particular word means that the the encounter with Christ in judgment

01:11:43

I would like to ask and maybe one of the callers will ask to has that been infallibly defined by the church as the infallible meaning of this text and if it hasn't then how can

01:11:53

I be faulted for Not quote -unquote understanding that or for going with so many statements such as those of Ludwig Ah the cleansing fire purgatorium is a place and state of temporal penal purification

01:12:04

Fundamentals of Catholic dogma who's right Tim Staples or Ludwig God How about Nicholas Patrick Wiseman Cardinal Archbishop Westminster, we see it the father's the church of call it a purging fire a place of expiation or purgation

01:12:17

The idea is precisely the name almost the same There's so many of these things that read

01:12:23

FX troops book purgatory Legas book the birth of purgatory Read these things for yourself and you will be able to see that it is not a matter of misrepresenting the

01:12:32

Roman Catholic perspective There has been change You want if you want to call change development Well, I guess that's how you get from the first 500 years the

01:12:40

Christian Church knowing nothing about the concept of the bodily assumption Of Mary to dogma. I call that not development.

01:12:46

I call that perversion and mutation They are not the same things The fact the matter is the context is clear and the meaning the words are clear

01:12:55

What is going on in first Corinthians chapter 3 as a demonstration of the people who built upon that foundation and why they did?

01:13:03

those with gold silver and precious stones their works are tested in the exact same way as the works of anyone else and Every Roman Catholic who has ever turned to first Corinthians chapter 3 and I hear them call

01:13:18

Catholic answers all the time And they see the word fire. They immediately connect it with purgatory I guess they don't understand it just as badly as I didn't understand it or maybe they've been taught differently

01:13:27

I'll leave that up to you to determine But the fact the matter is that this text is not talking about how sins are purged there's nothing about temporal punishments

01:13:35

There is nothing about penances These are extra biblical concepts that have no place in Paul's presentation in this text and so I simply ask

01:13:45

Those in listening audience take the time to go to the text yourself and ask yourself the question did

01:13:51

Paul and those to whom he was writing have a Context to be able to understand this text as it's been presented

01:14:00

Not only by Tim Staples, but look at how other Roman Catholics presented Did they have the context to understand that if they did not then you cannot embrace this interpretation as being?

01:14:12

Exegesis you have to recognize it for what it is. It is Eisegesis well, I still have two minutes left there, but I'm gonna go ahead and and wrap up because I want to allow the callers to participate

01:14:26

As soon as you hear someone hang up That would be the time to call and we will process calls as quickly as we possibly can

01:14:34

If you're getting a busy signal just hang up and try again But like I said the best time would be when someone hangs up Hopefully Tim you'll be able to hear the callers very clearly if you cannot please let us know

01:14:44

We'll try to make an adjustment and let's begin with Roger. Hi Roger How are you?

01:14:52

Speak up a little bit. Go ahead with your question. My question is do you think that these verses could be referring to?

01:14:59

Believers being cast in the outer darkness during the Millennium and Because they weren't they were believers, but they weren't

01:15:09

They didn't have good enough works to make it into the inner circle thing. Okay, Roger Thank you for that phone call and my answer would be no

01:15:18

There's nothing about a Millennium here or anything about outer darkness whatsoever. Did you want to comment on that at all?

01:15:25

No, I would I would have to agree with you on that I would just emphasize that verse 15 clearly says but he himself shall be saved

01:15:34

So they're clearly not being cast into outer darkness outer darkness So the left behind series isn't one of your favorite series to read.

01:15:43

No. Okay. All right, just just checking Just trying to find some some common ground there.

01:15:48

Okay, let's All right. Let's talk with Greg. Hi Greg Hello for mr.

01:15:55

Staples in as much as The Bible says that our sins are you know, we're dealt with on the cross in the body of Christ Cleansed by the blood of Christ.

01:16:07

Yes that this that this was done perfectly and forever And that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sins how then is there any sin left to be dealt with and Secondly, how is it that the blood of Christ was sufficient to cleanse a believer from the mortal sins that he?

01:16:27

Committed before he came to Christ yet. Somehow these Meet the venial sins are still left over.

01:16:33

Mm -hmm. Okay. Thank you. That's a great question I think the key is you have to understand the difference between the objective sacrifice of Christ which is infinite

01:16:46

Perfect. He is the propitiation for our sins and not only our sins But the sins of the whole world is first John 2 verses 1 and 2 tell us however the subjective application of that sacrifice is what we're talking about as the

01:17:01

Council of Trent declared November 25th 1551 when it talks about and it but by the way, this is quoted in the

01:17:08

Catechism paragraph 1460 under the heading of satisfaction that when we talk about making satisfaction suffering for our sins and such we become like Jesus who made satisfaction for our sins and From whom is all our sufficiency?

01:17:24

We also have a most sure pledge that if we suffer with him We shall also be glorified with them as Romans 8 17 says for this

01:17:32

Satisfaction which we offer in payment for our sins is not so much ours That it is not also done through Christ Jesus for we can do nothing of ourselves as of ourselves

01:17:43

With his cooperation we can do everything in him who strengthens us So this this is we have nothing to boast.

01:17:50

All our boasting is in Christ. Okay, the Catechism of Trent So this is not about adding to what

01:17:56

Christ did but it's about applying what Christ did in our lives objectively Okay.

01:18:01

Well, my comment would be as I'm as I note in Titus chapter 2 verse 14 He redeemed us from every lawless deed

01:18:07

There is no distinction made in that which Christ redeemed us from and the book of Hebrews makes a very strong argument

01:18:13

That is by one sacrifice. He has perfected forever not made perfection available that we then through sacraments apply it to ourselves but he has perfected forever those that are being sanctified that is why

01:18:25

I am the blessed man of Romans chapter 4 verse 6 when justice

01:18:31

David also speaks the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have all been forgiven whose sins have been covered

01:18:39

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. There is a fundamental difference This goes to the difference between Roman Catholicism and what

01:18:47

I believe in regards to the biblical gospel and it would be a very very good subject for a future debate

01:18:55

Let's once once he asked you and I didn't ask for a comeback on yours So let's just do one one response.

01:19:00

You took it a long way away from what he asked. I think you did But so let's just go out with Jason here

01:19:07

Jason go ahead This is for Mr. Staples Did the idolaters and second

01:19:13

Maccabees that were being prayed for die in mortal sin? If so, can you please explain how this is possible in light of?

01:19:22

the Roman Catholic position Namely that if you die in mortal sin You will not enter purgatory

01:19:29

Thank you, and it's a good question. And the answer is no they did not die in mortal sin, which is obvious because or at least

01:19:39

The the people in Maccabees believed they did not because they believed they could still Make what today, you know

01:19:45

Orthodox Jews Jews called the mourners could dish for their loved ones praying for their purification

01:19:50

So they they were had amulets on their bodies and whatnot, which would be kind of akin to You know something like carrying a rabbit's foot or being superstitious baseball players and so forth while while it's

01:20:05

Sinful to trust in anything other than God. We don't believe that this was

01:20:11

It appears from the text that this was not mortal sin, but I would add this even if it was mortal sin

01:20:19

We Are not the judge of that and we pray for everyone So if somebody dies, you know,

01:20:25

I I don't make a judgment. Oh, I think he died in mortal sin I pray for him and so there's really no contradiction even if it was

01:20:34

You know mortal sin when a family member or a loved one dies We as a practice always pray for them as did the

01:20:42

Orthodox Jews who went before us I don't believe there's any reason to believe that the Jews held to a mortal and Eternal distinction that is fundamental to this very question.

01:20:53

It is very clear that There it is very clear that they were idolaters and that is why

01:20:58

God struck them down God doesn't strike people down for carrying a rabbit's foot. It's very clear. They were idolaters I don't know what else could be a mortal sin, but I'd alter in the

01:21:06

Old Testament but I honestly think that that text is is Being torn way out of its context to be applied to this situation in any way shape or form.

01:21:15

Let's go to Michael Yes, sir Michael And Okay, thank you very much

01:21:59

Michael it would you like me to go first you get the last shot on this one I'll be real. I'll be real brief.

01:22:04

I I Agree, I did not miss that I specifically made that as a part of me opening statement that we have the exact same terminology being used in verses 8 and 14 and that I would agree that this is at the final judgment the day of verse 13 for the day will show it.

01:22:22

I do believe Hey Mera there is clearly the day of the Lord It is the day of judgment. So I I would agree with the with the callers a statement that point

01:22:30

I hoped that I had made that point but evidently given that he thought I'd missed it I didn't make it clear enough. So I apologize your comments

01:22:36

Yeah, I would say that And on the literal level that st.

01:22:43

Paul is talking about the day of judgment But we can also by illusion

01:22:50

Refer to this text not only to the final judgment But also to the particular judgment that each one of us will face at the moment that we die

01:23:00

And so you receive a reward Long before the final judgment in other words as soon as you die as we see in Luke 16, you know when

01:23:09

Jesus talks about the The rich man and Lazarus when they die immediately They go one to paradise and the other to hell

01:23:19

There so so I think this text can apply to either the final judgment or the particular judgment

01:23:26

Already now we go to John John your question, please James, this is

01:23:31

John Saul's. I'm a fellow apologist with Tim. I've enjoyed the debate James You've you've pointed out that you can't find purification in these verses

01:23:39

But the Greek for suffer loss that hasn't come up and I think as you know, that's referred to punishment

01:23:45

Zemiah Oh, in fact, I can cite a number of verses in the New Testament where Zemiah was used as eternal punishment

01:23:51

You can go to Matthew 16 26 Mark 8 36 and Luke 9 25 So if we have an individual here who has died and who is being punished post -mortem, but it's still saved

01:24:02

Where is that person James? Okay. Thank you very much. I actually did specifically address that I'm not sure how my opening statement got lost

01:24:10

But I specifically addressed Zemiah Oh and its forms and its uses in the New Testament I specifically made an argument that the range of Zemiah Oh has to be

01:24:19

Translated based upon the context which is found based upon its semantic domain and I demonstrated that given that it's used in contrast to Misthos that that is why is translated as suffer loss not as punishment and then gave further references to that So, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, but I did make that very statement in my opening statement

01:24:40

Tim some I appreciate the caller and He is correct

01:24:45

The semantic range of the term does include Punishment and it is used elsewhere

01:24:52

For punishment and so again, I think that adds to adds more evidence to what we've been saying and what

01:25:00

I've been saying what the church has been saying for 2 ,000 years and that is That these works that are being burned up It's not just the works out there floating around but the the individual who must

01:25:15

Go through the fire as through fire because it's not a literal fire in order that he may attain that final salvation

01:25:23

So you have not only from the word, but also the context that we're talking about purification

01:25:30

Suffering and such. Okay, Frank your question, please Hi in a debate with Roberts and Janice, this is the doctor white

01:25:39

He said that verse 17 does not refer to a Christian because verse 16 is in the plural

01:25:45

Well verse 17 is in the singular. However, it's 14 and 15 are also in the singular so Why aren't the people in verse 14 and 15

01:25:57

Christians while the people in verse 17 are it are not Christian? Okay, Frank actually

01:26:04

What I pointed out even in my opening statement today, did we broadcast my opening statement seems to have gotten lost?

01:26:10

Maybe there is a problem with webcast or something but as I pointed out the contrast between 10 through 15 and 16 through 17 is found the fact that Those in 16 and 17 or the individual

01:26:21

God will destroy him. It's individual judgment comes upon him Is that in 10 through 15 there is a building upon the foundation in verses 16 through 17?

01:26:30

There is a destruction of the already built temple. And so that is the contrast I don't recall the specifics in regards to I think

01:26:39

I pointed out in verse 16 You are the temple is to the church But him and if a man destroyed the temple of God God will destroy him is about a person who's tearing down that temple a person

01:26:49

Who's profaning? The church and hence it's a reference to holiness of church But I'm not sure what else I can comment on that because I'm not sure what he was referring to you.

01:26:57

Go ahead Tim Sure, yeah, I I I don't disagree with anything that you say one thing

01:27:04

I would add is When no you not that you are are the temple of God.

01:27:10

He does move From the singular to the plural here in verses 16 to 17

01:27:16

So he seems to be indicating here that you are the temple of God and that the

01:27:21

Spirit of God dwells in in you For the temple, let's see now if any man defile the temple him shall

01:27:31

God Destroy, I think this refers to not just You know temporal punishment, but this would seem to indicate that these

01:27:40

The people are going to be destroyed. I think this is a reference to hell

01:27:45

Whereas okay versus 14 and 15 would refer to purgatory. Okay, let's try to let's try to sneak one more in here

01:27:52

Let's talk to turrets and fan Oh Hello, mr. Staples. Yes This is a question based on the fact that you had related this fire to judgment

01:28:01

But the question is is who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect.

01:28:06

It is God that justifies Who is it? Who is he that condemned? That's right

01:28:12

Amen, I don't know what the question is, but I sure agree with the the scripture verse Absolutely, no one can and in context there

01:28:20

I think where is that in Romans chapter 8 you're referring to yes So that that was a run separate Yeah that in context, of course

01:28:28

St. Paul is is talking about people who were suffering persecution and such and is encouraging them to know that there is no power

01:28:36

That can separate them. I Love verses 35 to 39 there

01:28:41

Neither death nor life nor angels or principalities nor powers or things present or things that come height or death

01:28:47

There are any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus That's the security that we have as Christians.

01:28:54

Of course is one thing. He doesn't mention there Is mortal sin we can choose to walk away from from God and maybe that's what you were angling at there

01:29:05

But appreciate the call. Okay. Well, I think what he was angling at was if if the fire

01:29:11

Is the judgment of God and God is the one who justifies specifically says who will bring a charge against God's elect

01:29:18

God is the one who justifies it I think what his point was you have God not only bring the charge but also being the one who justifies the same time

01:29:26

With the statement then who is the one who condemns Christ Jesus who died? Yes rather who was raised who's the right hand of God who also intercedes for us and it is that intercession and our behalf that is the guarantee of The believers salvation it is not my continued faithfulness

01:29:43

It is the continued faithfulness of Jesus Christ in my behalf and that again would be something we could we could really get into as As time would allow but time does not allow as we have gone through our 90 minutes.

01:29:56

Mr. Staples. Thank you very much I hope that as you go back and listen to this encounter that You'll be able to see that the time of frames the time allotments were were exact and I believe

01:30:06

Everything was was done in a way that is honoring to our commitments and I would love to have an opportunity to do it again

01:30:12

The future. All right, James. Well, I appreciate the time and God bless you all and your listeners Okay.

01:30:18

Thank you, Tim. And don't forget if you ever want to do this on Catholic answers live. You've got my phone number Alrighty, thanks for calling.

01:30:25

All right. Thanks you for listening. We will be back Lord willing on Tuesday here on the dividing line

01:30:30

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