Quick G3 Report, the NWT, then Open Phones on Lots of Topics

Well, greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. We are back in Phoenix, Arizona, having spent last weekend in, well, Rich and I were in Atlanta on Wednesday, Thursday, part of Friday, and then I was back on Long Island.

Man, I'll tell you, I see a bunch of the folks from back in the day, and, oh, getting this little long in the tooth. It's much less hair than we used to have, and you drive around with people and talk about who's died since.

Remember that? Yeah, he's dead. No, he's gone too. It's like, oh. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it is delayed. Wow, that's really weird. I don't know. It means I don't even want to see it, but it is delayed a good bit, so that's very strange.

That may mean that this is all for naught, and this is going to never be recorded, never seen, and everything else. Who knows? It rained in Phoenix, so when that happens, I mean, my power went off at 4 .07 a .m. this morning.

Why? I think it rained. Doesn't power go off when it rains? Isn't that how it's supposed to happen? Anyway, before we jump into everything, we're going to open the phones later on and take some phone calls and stuff today, but first, we're going to use the phones for something else, and I have two copies of The Forgotten Trinity in audiobook.

Look at that, and there's even a picture of the guy who reads it right there on the back. So, six hours and 55 minutes presented on six discs. Now, the first thing is you have to know what a CD is, and secondly, you have to own one of those ancient devices that plays the CD, because I could just see somebody.

We send this to them, and they try putting it on a turntable, or scratch it all up, or, hey, I thought I could plug it into my computer, and it'd be in the USB port. No, no. I get it. I get it. Yeah, that's how it is, but if you, yeah, a little SD card, yeah, that's a pretty big case for an SD card.

It really is. I don't really think you need that much stuff there, but anyway, so if you can utilize the CD format, some of you who don't know this, if you have a CD-ROM, like iTunes, if you put it in, it can record it to your computer, and then you can listen to it in other ways and things like that.

So, I have two sets here, and I've been sitting here thinking, years and years and years ago, we would have little contest-type things, and I know people today aren't used to this at all, but back in Rich and I's day, we had things called telephones and phone booths, and there was no internet, but everybody listened to just a small number of radio stations.

It's true. And, in fact, back in our day, we had CB radios. That's right, 10 -4 over Ducky. But it'd be way too easy to start walking down memory lane right now. It really would. Anyway, so what they would do is they would announce they were going to have a contest, and then the seventh caller would win tickets to a concert or something like that.

But what they also did was they would have contests where you'd call, so you'd take the first caller, and then you'd have a question, and they would have to answer the question. If they got the question right, then they got it.

If they got the question wrong, then you moved on to the next caller, and you just hope that the people in front of you are dumber than you are or something like that. So this is how it worked in the past.

So I just figured out what I'm going to do here. Hold on. Let's see. That's funny. I'll tell you why it's funny later on. What I'm going to do is we'll take the first callers in order at 877 -753 -3341, and I will read you a quote, and you must identify where the quote came from.

Okay? So you must identify where the quote came from. So 877 -753 -3341. We're live right now. Well, my computer up there is not really live. It's slightly in the past, but 877 -753 -3341. I suppose it would be helpful if I actually had the phones up myself, and I'm not even sure.

Yes, good. You know, it's sad when even the technology that your phone system uses, the browsers are now going, I don't want to use that. I don't want to use that. So do we already have four? Oh, two, three, one, four.

Okay. We don't need complications here. All right. All right. Hold on a second. Let me... I do need an earpiece, but I need to question first. Okay. All right. So this could be fun, or it could be a complete bust.

Either one. But why not? So I'm going to start with two, right? Okay. All right. You are the first caller. Congratulations. Oh, good. It's a dog.

I'm sorry. She's barking in the background.

Well, I'm sorry, but if you win this, the dog gets the prize because they were the first one we heard.

That will be fine, Grace. He will love it if it's a good shoe.

If it's a good shoe. Okay. All right. Well, but she might have good theology. You don't know. Or she might need good theology. I've heard there's a rash of Unitarianism amongst...

It's her barking that's a pain.

It's the barking? Okay. Her theology is good, but her barking's not good. Okay. All right. Okay. So I'm going to read you a quote. I just need a general idea of where this comes from, okay? Just the identity of...

I can't say the internet? No. Because all quotes are on the internet. All quotes are on the internet. You want something a little more... I want a little something more. Yeah. I do reserve final decision-making authority on my own as to whether it was...

Okay. Okay. Ready? All right. And when you shall receive these things, I would exhort you that you would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true. And if you shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now, what book does that come from?

Definitely Mormon. I'm trying to decide between the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great.

Price. No. No, I'll let you... Let's stick with the first one. It's definitely Mormon. Right. As in the Book of Mormon. That's cool. You know, I was just... Oh, it is? It is the Book of Mormon. Yes, it is the Book of Mormon.

Oh, shoot. No, no, no. That's all right. That was close enough. That was close enough. We are being very generous today. That is Moroni 10, verse 4, and it is a good text to be prepared for because when the... I'm not sure they still do this.

I would assume they still do. But as little as 10 years ago, when the Mormons would pass out their paperback editions of the Book of Mormon, many of them, even the laypeople, but the missionaries too, will mark that text, sometimes put a little sticky note or something like that, and they'll sometimes sign the Book of Mormon and invite you to read Moroni 10, 4.

It's 10, 4, and 5 specifically. But that is the primary text that they will point you to, to ask you to pray about the Book of Mormon, is Moroni.

And then hoping you'll feel the burning in the bosom and hop on board.

Yep, you got it. And it used to be really effective. It's not nearly as effective as it once was. But yes, that's Moroni 10. That was verse 4. Verse 5 says, and by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.

So that's the basis of the LDS testimony. Moroni 10, verses 4 and 5, Book of Mormon, and that has not been changed since 1830, so it's pretty much been consistently there all along. So what you need to do is hang on there, and Rich will get your name and address from you, and you'll get the...

Now, I do need to ask, you do have a CD player? Yes, actually, I have many of them, Dr. White. Okay, okay.

This is Kurt from the old IRC chat room. I'm old. I have old everything. I have an 8-track player.

Okay, well, you know, I don't have any of my 8-tracks anymore, so... But I have thought about finding a way to record music and then to put the 8-track sound into the middle of a song, where it just all of a sudden stops, goes, and then picks right back up again.

Because that's how 8-tracks worked. All right, thank you, sir. I'm gonna put you on hold here, make sure you got all the information there, and we'll go to our next caller. So you said 2 -1? Go to the one that's flashing.

Okay. All right. Okay, hello. How are you? How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you, Dr. White? I'm doing okay. I'm just doing some crazy stuff here. I'm just really hoping that I'm choice me. I don't know that I want to even touch that one with a 10-foot pole.

Well, the Lord predestined anyway, so it's His choice, I guess. Well, this is true. This is true. No, so where are you calling from? I'm calling from St. Petersburg, Florida. Well, I'm not sure that...

Florida is just rough on me, because I guess up toward Georgia, you might have a few hills, but I simply could not possibly live in a place without mountains. Well, I keep a place up in the mountains.

That's where my family's from. So I'd like to go up there. I stay down here, because all my friends I grew up with at church, we're all still friends, and they all still live around here. So I'd like to give up that good fellowship.

I get you. I get you. But I'm still... It's so hard for me to live any place where you cannot look up and see something on the horizon. I know exactly how you feel. I mean, about... And it's always humid.

Even when it's cold down here, it's wet cold. Yeah, yeah. That and the fact that about the only hills are the backs of alligators. And that's the other part that is rough. Anyways... A friend of mine, he was an atheist raised in a Muslim background, and I was able to...

Only the Lord knows whether he was saved, but he passed away untimely. He was unwell, but at least wherever he's at now, he knows that God was trying to reach out to him, and it's up to the Lord. We'll see when we get there.

Yeah, atheism is a... I'm thankful that I have brothers who have a real heart for reaching atheists. That's one hard area for me. I understand some people have a... They don't understand how you can have a real heart for Muslims, which I do, but each of us have been given different... been built different ways, given different gifts, and atheism has always been a tough one for me.

But I did have a... Well, there's no such thing as atheism, and that was the easiest thing to convince him of. I understand. I understand what you're saying. Okay, are you ready for your quote? I am, hopefully, Lord willing.

Here we go. Okay, all right. It's very short and very famous, so you should feel really bad if you don't get it. I'm sorry, I shouldn't put gender pressure like that. Fair enough. I'm terrible. All right, so where do you find these words?

Guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom you have bestowed favor, not of those you have evoked your anger or of those who have gone astray. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom you have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked your anger or of those who have gone astray.

Is that from the author of the Qur 'an? Well, that's from the Qur 'an, so technically, yes, it is from the author of the Qur 'an, yes. I've learned enough from you to, you know, basically just quote the author.

That's right. You didn't say Muhammad, you said the author of the Qur 'an. That's close enough, definitely. Yes, those are the last two portions of what's called Surah al-Fatiha. It is the opening surah of the Qur 'an.

It's a seven-verse prayer at the beginning of the Qur 'an before the longest chapter of the Qur 'an, which is Surah al-Baqarah, Surah 2. And it is a prayer to guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom you have bestowed favor, not, and then there's two groups mentioned, those who have evoked your anger or of those who have gone astray.

And according to the earliest interpretations found in the Hadith, Muhammad indicated that those who have earned God's wrath are the Jews, and those who have gone astray are the Christians. So this also becomes the people of the book.

And so this Surah al-Fatiha is part of the Muslim prayers every single day. And so every single day, every Muslim prays not to be a Jew or a Christian. So that is important to keep in mind. So yes, from Surah al-Fatiha.

Well, every day I pray that a Muslim becomes a Christian. That's right. There you go. So all right, brother, stay on hold, and we will get your information. And oh, you do have a CD, right? I do, I do, by the grace of God, just like my salvation.

Thanks, Dr. White. It's been a real pleasure, and it's such a blessing. Keep the show up. I've learned so much. Okay, thanks a lot. All right, God bless. All right, so Rich, you get those. Sorry, we had to go with the first two callers there.

But if you're online, and you'd like to hang online to ask a question later on, you've got the first two shots. I will leave that up to you, but we will be taking calls here in a little while. Just wanted to start off with something sort of fun there.

We had these CD things, and you can, of course, get the way that most human beings get recorded material today in MP3 format or MB4 format, I imagine, would be the technical designation. The Forgotten Trinity is now in Audible format.

I'm sure it's available on audible .com. That's where I get most of my stuff, I will admit that. And so I've had a number of people contact me, and I've had a lot of people say, why isn't the King James only controversy?

I don't know that it ever could be. It would require someone, I mean, how do you do that second, stuff that deals with textual criticism and stuff like that, how do you put that into audio format anyways?

That's really tricky. That'd be very... No, I said that... Okay, I said, hey, if they want to hang and ask a question, I'm not going to go to it right instantly, but if they want to, that's fine. They're first in line.

G3, New Hyde Park, and the New World Translation

That's the consolation prize. Real briefly, just got back from G3, and I wanted to thank everyone there for... I don't want this to sound like I'm faulting everyone else who doesn't do this, but I do think sometimes that some of the speakers miss out on some of the real fun of G3 by basically not meeting with anybody.

I've lost track of how many hours I have stood outside the, or inside the rooms there at the Atlanta Convention Center, just talking with people, and signing books, taking selfies. I mean, it's funny.

It is really interesting how things have changed, because now there is almost an understood protocol. If you're next in line, you need to know how to use the person in front of you's cell phone to take pictures, because doing this thing, hey, look, it's a shoulder.

Anybody with a selfie stick, I suppose that'd be a nice self-defense weapon if you train to use it, but most people don't do that. It's just sort of how it works out, is that the next person takes the picture of the person in front of them, and then they give their camera to the next person, and it's just sort of how it works.

We started that on Thursday, about 9 o 'clock in the morning, and then I left about 3 in the afternoon. I did four webcasts, short ones, but four webcasts during that time period. Rich went and got some Chick-fil-A for me.

At that point, we were at the Sovereign booth. We sat there and ate Chick-fil-A and then went back at it. What I really like about it is, it's interesting, every year is a little different. Last year, there were a bunch of IFB people, former IFB people.

That was the predominant thing that kept coming up, was I was independent fundamentalist Baptist, and you really helped me to see through that and to get out of that. That was really, really common. We had a number of former Oneness folks this year.

We haven't done anything special on Oneness this year, but there were IFB people, former Roman Catholics. I've lost count over the years how many people said, I read your King James Only book, and then I started reading other stuff, and now I'm reformed.

That's an interesting path to get where you're going, but that's basically how it worked. It is really fascinating to get to meet folks and to take all the pictures and shake all the hands. A number of you had heard my plea, please give me space, please.

A few people want to do the fist bump thing. I didn't mind shaking the hands. I had my son of pure with me before I ate food or anything like that. It's just very, very enjoyable to have that opportunity to meet with folks.

There are just some folks who just don't do that. There are just some speakers that just that's not their thing. They're not going to be out there. They're doing that kind of stuff, but we did, and we moved.

We didn't have our own booth this year, so we basically hung out either at post-Tenebrous Lux with Jeffrey Rice and his wife and friends and what they were doing. One of the first things we did on Thursday is Jeffrey and I had teamed up on getting a Bible for Virginia Calperthwaite.

Her young lady is getting close to finishing her. By the way, her sister seems to have broken her collarbone yesterday, so pray for them. They're traveling, and that's got to be extremely painful. There's not much you can do about it.

I know a lot about that because cyclists, that is the most common cycling injury in a crash, is a broken collarbone because you try not to do it, but if you put that arm out, all that weight is going right on this thin little bit of nothing, and so there you go, and so pray for them.

But Virginia had one of the pages in her Bible was coming out. She's pretty close to memorizing her 15th book of the New Testament, and so Jeffrey and I had gotten some information and had gotten her a new ESV, a post-Tenebrous Lux version, which means it should last a very, very long time.

So we started off doing that, and so we hung out over there for a while, then we were over at Sovereign, and I went back to PTL on Friday after I spoke Friday morning, but then I did have to leave in the afternoon because that evening some of you already saw, because it dropped Sunday night, the program we did on CrossPolitik, where it was Doug Wilson, myself, Virgil Walker.

We're on the couch together and basically talked about a lot of stuff, and the added stuff, the stuff that you have to have a subscription to type thing. Really got into some interesting discussions that are, I think, important and helpful and stuff like that, so we did that as well.

And then Friday morning, unfortunately, we had technical issues when I had my opportunity to speak. I've said often that I'm put early in the morning so that anything I say that causes problems is forgotten by the evening when the big boys get up to speak.

But I did Isaiah 6, and I preached from, this isn't it, but it looks like it. I preached from the Greek Septuagint, and this is, if you haven't seen it, this is the Hendrickson two-volume reader's edition of the Greek Septuagint.

And so this is the one that starts with Genesis, Exodus. But the second volume I left, the one I preached from, I left with Jeffrey, and I'm going to send him this one. We're actually going to bind these.

And this was all I preached from, and the reason I did that, if you get to see it once it's posted, and like I said, there were technical problems. They told you it was okay? They told you it was going to be posted?

The sermon? Okay. So I guess they got it, but it didn't live stream correctly. When it came on, there was no audio. I had the wonderful experience of standing there at a pulpit in front of thousands of people, and then all of a sudden, someone's pulling on my belt.

I had no earthly idea. Now everybody else saw I'm coming, I assume. But the sound guy snuck up behind me, because we were getting breakup from these fancy dancy Britney Spears microphones that make you wear.

And I don't know that it helped any. I don't know what he could have even done back there. But if you can just imagine being in the middle of a sermon, all right? And thankfully, I had already live translated the text, and had gone through the text, and I was about three or four verses in, I guess, when he did this.

But I just know certain people that would never recover from that. Let's put it that way. I mean, no, no, no, not that they turn around and punch somebody. They would just never get back into their train of thought.

It would just be derailed. And if you've ever seen a train wreck, that's what would be the result of everything afterwards. It's like, nah, that's the end of that. But thankfully, that's one of the reasons I think the Lord had me grow up doing radio, because stuff would happen on radio that you just had to be able to keep going.

And so I did. And so there you go. Anyhow, but it didn't live stream properly. The end of it did, but not the beginning of it. And so when I got to New York, I mentioned that to Doug McMasters. I was speaking at New Hyde Park Baptist Church on issues about textual criticism and canon issues and stuff like that.

But I was preaching the Sunday morning sermon. I've preached at New Hyde Park for decades now, actually, even before Doug was there. I had preached at that church. And so I mentioned that and it was like, well, you could preach it again.

And there hopefully won't be any sound issues. And so I did. That's what I did for the Sunday morning sermon. There was one guy in the audience that had been there. So he had to listen to it twice, but nobody else had.

So that wasn't an issue. And so we've already linked to that one. And I sort of liked the second one better personally, maybe because there wasn't the interruptions and also because I could see people.

It is weird if you've ever spoken in that situation. I even made comments before I preached. I said, I hope they turn the audience lights up some, because it was really dark in there. And I'm not sure exactly why they do that.

I'm not sure how you could even read your Bible if there was really sufficient light. It would be difficult for me. Yeah, everybody's using a phone, I suppose. But for the speaker, you're really not seeing faces.

I mean, you can see heads, but with the lights in your eyes and the low light out there, it's sort of hard to see people. And that makes it, I don't know, it's an interesting dynamic. Let's just put it that way.

And so I preached that and we've already linked to that. And we'll see about when the video comes up, what will happen with that. One other thing real quick, then we'll take our calls. I don't want to be too long today.

Got this off of eBay for 11 bucks. Brand new in the wrap. New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Not a bad feeling leatherette type thing. It's not real leather, obviously. You can see the pages have not yet been separated.

Obviously, I have my old NWT down there, but this is the current revised 2013 and rendered from the original languages by the New World Bible Translation Committee, revised 2013. That'd be really, really interesting to know who was on the revision of this.

I don't know that anyone actually knows that, but it's amazing. This is already seven years old. Wow. Because I remember when Word came out that they had put out a new NWT and it seemed to me like that was like three years ago.

That's 2013. That's depressing. But one of the key issues in this, and there's no way I can show this to you. It's too small. But when the NWT first came out in the fifties, it came out in portions. And we know who worked on it.

We know who the committee was. The committee had no scholars with any teaching history whatsoever. No translation history, no work in that field, no published works in that field, nothing, nothing. Now, your average Jehovah's Witness thinks the greatest scholars in the world worked on this translation.

As far as we know, there was one guy that had two years of Koine Greek, was self-taught in Hebrew, and that was it. But it is absurdly literal in most places, horribly literal. Its English is as exciting as chewing on aluminum foil.

I mean, it is just that bad, but it was produced for a specific reason. And the reason was to insert Jehovah's Witness doctrine into the Bible, or at least to remove the passages that are most obviously contradictory to Jehovah's Witness doctrine.

So when it first came out, Colossians chapter one had, because by means of him, all other things were created in the heavens and on earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or government's authorities, all other things have been created through him and for him.

Also he has before all other things, by means of him, all other things were made to exist. Colossians chapter one, verses 16 to 17. There was such a outcry from Christian scholars and everyone else that short, I'm not sure if the first full printed edition, but shortly thereafter, they put a bracket around the word other to show that this is their interpretation.

And that's how it was up until 2013. And now they've got, they've taken it out. They've gone back. And I was wondering what the motivations of that would be. Is it that they don't care about what Christians would say, or they're just so few Christians who even talk about them anymore that they figured they can get away with it?

I don't know. But my point is, if you see this in someone's hand at church, I remember 20 years ago, walking up the aisle at church, um, one night or maybe not, but anyway, and I remember looking over where a visitor was sitting and they weren't sitting there, but their stuff was there.

And not this one, this is the 2013 edition, but there's a new world translation. Now, does that automatically mean that the person is a current Jehovah's witness, a former Jehovah's witness? No, because like I said, I got mine off eBay and it was brand new.

Uh, so there are literally millions of copies of the NWT in used bookstores. If there are very, there aren't very used bookstores around anymore either, but the, the few that are, you, you will find shells of NWTs, green ones.

And if you can get their old brown one, the large one with the study notes, that's, that's, that's definitely worth having. Um, but anyway, so they may have been given it by a friend. They may, they may not have any idea, but it should catch your attention.

And someone with some background and knowledge should talk with anybody you see walking with an NWT, um, immediate red flag. Somebody with apologetic understanding needs to talk to this person and find out where they're coming from and find out if they just think this is just a Bible like every other Bible.

Um, do they, do they know what its background is? You know, I think that's just really, really important. So keep an eye out for it. This is now what the current one looks like. Um, I have a red one down there.

I think in the past you'd get like red and black, maybe even Brown, but at least red and black. But remember I told you that last, when was I in Durban last, uh, sometime last year, um, sometime during the summer.

Um, I went down to run by the seashore. It's beautiful, beautiful. I love to watch the sunrise, um, there at what's Umlunga Bay, Umlunga Bay, something like that. Anyway, um, really nice area. And, uh, I walked out onto this pier and when I got to the end of the pier, I see there's one guy out there in the dark and he's preaching to the ocean and he didn't know I was there.

And then I don't know if I, I think it's when I took a picture, he realized I was there. And so he, we get together and, and I said, I didn't mean to interrupt you there or anything. And all I was just thinking about this passage from the Psalms.

And, and I, I looked at his Bible when he closed the Bible. That's, it was that one, the 2013, the gray one that it looked identical to that, but he was beat to death. I mean, it was held together with tape.

Um, and so I said, so are, are you one of Jehovah's witnesses? Yes. Yes. But I have a very open mind, you know, I said, and that's what started that conversation. And I'm still, I, I gave him my number.

And one of the things that worries me is I wonder if he, if he did ever tried to contact me, I wonder if, because it was a foreign number, it wouldn't even get through that, that, that concerns me that that's a possibility, but anyways, we'll see what will happen.

Second Corinthians 5:21 and the Great Exchange

Um, okay. Uh, I'm looking at these and, um, there's three from the U S and one from overseas. So, Oh, well, do we want to go there then? All right. Okay. All right. Let's go to the phone calls. Let's, uh, let's talk with, uh, with Michael who has one less Prince than he used to.

Weren't expecting that, were you? No, no, no. Uh, thank you for taking my call, Dr. White. And, uh, I I'd like to tell you how much your ministry means to me, which is a lot. Um, so God bless you and Rich and all who work there.

Um, no, you, you got everybody. You got everybody when you said me and Rich, that's, that's, that's it. Um, I wanted to ask you about, um, second Corinthians five 21. It came up in a Bible. It came up because we were having a Bible study and somebody said that Jesus became sin.

And I, I disagreed and he pulled up this verse and used this. Um, I, I tried to look at other verses where it says that Jesus was sinless, but, um, he kept coming back to this verse and say, said this verse says he became sin, especially in the Greek.

Um, I tried to look at, uh, uh, this word in the Septuagint, um, where I believe it's used as a sin offering, but, uh, again, that didn't hold any water. So I wanted to ask you about it and find out what your thoughts were.

Well, uh, yeah. Uh,.

I think if I recall correctly, I'd have to look, I, I think I spent some amount of time on this in my book, The God Who Justifies, but, um, uh, or somewhere I have. And I know when you, when you mentioned the reference, the first thought across my mind was, um, N .T. Wright, Bishop Wright, and I discussed this text on Unbelievable about five or six years ago, whenever it was, we did that little mini debate that we did on the subject of justification, uh, because he has a pretty interesting take on this, but you didn't go that direction.

That's not what your friend was saying, but N .T. Wright's take on that is that this is only about the apostles and that, and that the righteousness of God is the demonstration that they are, um, the, the covenant message bearers or something along those lines of, of the new covenant.

So, but that's not what your friend was saying. Um, I'm, I would want to know what he means by being made sin, if that is an ontological transformation. And I would also want to know what you would feel because you said you went to passages about Jesus being sinless, but that's not the same thing as being made sin.

And so here's, here's what I think is, is the, the proper understanding. Um, he made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. And so this has been called the great exchange.

Um, but it is, it's, it's very helpful in our understanding of what imputation means because it does not, it does not require that there be an ontological change in the Son's nature so that he becomes sin or is made sin.

Poieo normally means to be made, uh, there's no question about that, but, and this was something that Bishop Wright and I did discuss, you'll notice that the word for made, poieo, and then that we might become is, is not the, is, is not a direct parallel, um, that we might become is from Ginnomai.

Um, and so that's, that came up in our, in our discussion as well. But, but the point is that we might become the righteousness of God in him. What was it that is going on with Jesus that makes it possible for us to become the righteousness of God when we are in him?

And the answer to that is found in the fact that the same apostle who wrote these words also wrote, um, Romans 8 and Romans 5, um, and all those passages that, that talk about, um, imputation, the imputing of the righteousness of Christ.

And so when it says that he made him to be new, who, who knew no sin to be sin in our place, that doesn't mean that something changed in Jesus, but our sins are imputed to him in the same way then that his righteousness is imputed to us.

So, so it's, it's not something, you know, if he was, if he was, cause I have heard people say, word faith teachers say that there was, you know, some type of changing of Jesus and stuff like that and suffering in hell and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

That's, that's not what's being referred to. Um, but there is an exchange that is going on here and that is the sinless one is treated as if he had committed all those sins so that those who committed all those sins might be treated as possessing the righteousness of God.

And it's the great exchange, uh, that takes place.

Yeah, that's where I was heading with it. I mean, I, I tried to explain to him, I tried to compare to the sacrifices that there were in the old Testament, especially Yom Kippur, where the high priest would place his head, uh, his hands on, on the goat and the sins of the nation would, right.

You know, the goat didn't actually become the sin. And, and I also use the second part of the verse to say, you know, are you righteous? Because scripture also says that we're not righteous, but this verse says we are.