Quick G3 Report, the NWT, then Open Phones on Lots of Topics

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:36

Well, greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. We are back in Phoenix, Arizona having spent last weekend in, well

00:45

Rich and I were in Atlanta on Wednesday, Thursday, part of Friday, and then

00:50

I was back on Long Island Man, I'll tell you I see a bunch of, I see a bunch of the folks from back in the day and I'll get this little lung in the tooth it's

01:04

Much less hair than we used to have and you drive around with people and talk about who's died

01:15

Remember that? Yeah, he's dead. Yeah. No, he's gone too. It's like Yeah, anyway, it is delayed

01:26

Wow, that's really weird I Don't know it it means

01:31

I don't even want to see it, but It is delayed a good bit, so that's very strange

01:39

That may mean that this is all for naught. This is gonna never be recorded never seen and everything else who knows

01:47

It rained it rained in Phoenix so when that happens, I mean my power went off at 4 or 7 a .m.

01:52

This morning Why? I think it rained. That's It doesn't power go off when it rains isn't that not so damn anyway before we jump into everything we are going to have

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We're going to open the phones later on and take some phone calls and stuff today but first we're going to use the phones for something else and I have two copies of The Forgotten Trinity In audio book look at that and there's even a picture of the guy who reads it right there on the back

02:38

So six hours and 55 minutes Presented on Six discs now.

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The first thing is you have to know what a CD is And Secondly, you have to own one.

02:56

They have to own one of those ancient devices that plays the CD because Yeah, I could just see somebody, you know we send this to them and they try putting on a turntable or scratch it all up or or Hey, I got the but where's the

03:16

I thought I could plug it into my computer and it'd be in the USB port No, no,

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I get it. I get it Yeah, that's that's a salad, you know, that's that's how it is, but if you yeah little yeah

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SD card yeah, that's pretty big case for an SD card really is don't really think you need that much stuff there, but Anyway, so if you can utilize

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The CD format of some of you who don't know this if you have a

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CD -ROM Like iTunes if you if you put it in it can it can record it to Your computer and then you can listen to it in other ways and things like that So I have two sets here

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And I've been sitting here thinking We did years and years and years ago We would have little contest type things and I know people today aren't used to this at all

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But back in Rich and I's day We had things called telephones and phone booths and There was no internet, but everybody listened to just a small number of radio stations

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It's true and In fact back in our day. We had CB radios.

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That's right. 10 -4 over ducky So But it'd be way too easy start walking down memory lane right now it really would anyway so what they would do is

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They would announce they were gonna have a contest and then they do like the seventh caller would win tickets

05:08

To a concert or something like that But what they also did was they would have contests where you'd call so you'd take the first caller and then you'd have a question and They would have to answer

05:23

The question if they got the question right then they got it if they got the question wrong then

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You moved on to the next caller and you just hope that the people in front of you are dumber than you are or something like that So, you know, this is this is how this is this is how it worked in in the past So I just figured out what

05:46

I'm I just figured out what I'm gonna do here hold on let's see That's funny

05:55

I'll tell you why it's funny later on what I'm gonna do is

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We'll take The first callers in order at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and I will read you a quote and You must identify

06:17

Where the quote came from? Okay, so you must identify where the quote came from so Eight seven seven seven five we're live right now.

06:32

Well, my computer up there is not really alive It's slightly in the past, but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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I suppose it would be helpful if I actually had the phones up myself And I'm not even sure

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Yes, good, you know It's sad when when even the technology that your phone system uses the browsers are now going

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I don't want to use that I don't want to use that. So do it. Do I already have four? Two three one four.

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Okay, we don't need complications here. All right All right.

07:16

All right. Hold on a second Let me I do need an earpiece, but I need to question first Okay, all right so This could be fun or it could be a complete bust either one

07:44

So I'm gonna start with two right, okay. All right You are the first caller.

07:52

Congratulations. Oh good. It's a dog I'm sorry.

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She's barking in the background Well, I'm sorry, but if you win this the dog gets the prize because they were the first one we heard

08:12

If it's a good shoe, okay. All right. Well, but she might she might have she might have good theology

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You don't know or she needs she might need good theology. I've heard there's a Unitarianism amongst her barking.

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That's a pain. It's the barking. Okay, her theology is good. Their barkings are good. Okay. All right Okay, so I'm going to read you a quote.

08:32

I just need a general idea of Where this comes from?

08:38

Okay, just the identity of but you'll see Say the Internet No I'm on a little something more.

08:48

Yeah. Yeah, I am. I do I read I do reserve final decision -making

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Authority on my own as to whether it was it was okay. Okay, you ready? All right

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And when you shall receive these things I would exhort you that you would ask God the

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Eternal Father in the name of Christ If these things are not true, and if you shall ask with a sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ You will manifest the truth unto the truth of it unto you by the power of the

09:16

Holy Ghost now Well book does that come from Mormon?

09:21

I'm trying to decide between the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price No, no,

09:28

I'll let you out. Let's stick with the first one It's definitely Mormon Right as in the

09:39

Book of Mormon, that's what I you know, I was just it is the Book of Mormon. Yes.

09:44

It is the Book of Mormon Oh, no. No, that's all right. I was that was close enough. That was close enough. Well, we are being very generous today

09:52

Thank you, that is Moroni chapter 10 verse 4 and It is a good

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Text to be prepared for because when the I'm not sure they still do this

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I would assume they still do but as little as 10 years ago when the Mormons would pass out their paperback editions of the

10:13

Book of Mormon many of them even the the laypeople but the missionaries to will mark that text sometimes put a little sticky note or something like that and They'll sometimes sign the

10:27

Book of Mormon and invite you to read Moroni 10 4 it's 10 4 and 5 specifically but That is the primary text that they will point you to to ask you to pray about the

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Book of Mormon is Moroni and then Hoping you'll feel the burning in the book.

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Exactly. Yep. Yep. You got it. And it's it used to be really effective It's not nearly as effective as it once was but Yes, that's

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Moroni chapter 10 that was verse 4 verse 5 says and by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things so That's the basis of the

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LDS testimony Moroni chapter 10 verses 4 and 5 Book of Mormon And that has not been changed since 1830.

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So it's pretty much been consistently there all along so what you need to do is hang on there and Rich will get your name and address from you and You'll get the now

11:25

I do I do need to ask you you you do have a CD player Yes, actually

11:31

I have many of them dr. White, okay, okay This is Kurt from the old

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IRC chat room. I'm old. I have old everything. I have an 8 -track player Okay.

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Well, you know, I don't have any of my 8 tracks anymore. So But I I have thought about finding a way to record music and then to put the 8 -track sound into the middle of a song

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Where it just all sudden stops goes Cuz that's how

12:02

Tracks worked. All right. Thank you, sir I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on hold here make sure you got all the information there and we'll go to our next

12:10

Our next caller so you said to one Go the wise flashing.

12:17

Okay. All right Okay. Hello How are you?

12:23

Hello. How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you? Dr. White? I'm doing okay.

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I'm just run. I'm just doing some I'm doing some crazy stuff here and I'm just really hoping that I'm choice me that you're

12:37

I Don't know that I want to even touch that one with a 10 -foot pole

12:46

Yeah Well, this is true this is true, um, no, so where are you where are you where are you where you calling from I'm calling from st.

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Petersburg, Florida Well, you know, I'm not I'm not sure that's uh, you know

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You know, Florida is just is just rough on me because I guess up toward Georgia you might have a few hills, but I I Simply could not possibly live in a place without mountains

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It's like people place up in the mountains. That's where my family's from. So I'd like to go up there.

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I stay down here because all my friends I grew up with at church They're we're all still friends and they all still live around here.

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So now I'm going to give up that good fellowship I get you. I get you, but I'm still

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I it just it's so It's so hard for me to live any place where you cannot look up and see something on the horizon

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You know, I mean And it's always humid even when it's cold down here, it's wet cold.

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Yeah. Yeah I yeah that that and the fact that about the only hills are the backs of alligators

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And that's that's the other part that is that is that is rough. Anyways, I wanted to thank you real quick I was uh popping out a friend of mine.

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He was a atheist raised in a Muslim background and I was able to Only the

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Lord knows Whether he was saved, but he passed away Untimely he was unwell, but at least wherever he's at now, he knows that God was trying to reach out to him and It's up to the

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Lord. We'll see when we get there. Yeah, atheism is a It's I'm thankful that I have brothers who have a real heart

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For for reaching atheists. It's that's one hard area for me you know,

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I understand some people have a they don't understand how you can have a real heart for Muslims, which I do but each of us have been given different, you know been built different ways given different gifts and Atheism has always been a been a tough one for me, but I did

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I understand. I understand what you're saying. Okay. Are you ready for your quote? I am hopefully

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Lord willing. Here we go okay, all right, it's very short and very famous, so You should feel really bad if you don't get

15:32

I'm sorry. I shouldn't put you under pressure I'm terrible. All right, so Where do you find these words?

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Guide us to the straight path the path of those upon whom you have bestowed favor Not of those you have evoked your anger or of those who have gone astray

15:53

Guide us to the straight path the path of those upon whom you have bestowed favor Not of those who have evoked your anger or of those who have gone astray

16:05

That's from the author of the Quran Well, that's from the Quran so technically yes, it is from the author of the

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Quran. Yes That is I've learned enough from you to you know Basically just quote the author.

16:19

That's right. Yeah, you didn't say Muhammad You said the author of the Quran said that that's that's that's close enough.

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Definitely Yes that those are the the last two portions of what's

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Called Surah Fatiha, it is the opening surah of the Quran It's a seven verse prayer at the beginning of the

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Quran before the longest chapter of the Quran, which is Surah al -Baqarah Surah 2 and It is a prayer to guide us to the straight path the path of those upon whom you have bestowed favor not and then there's two groups mentioned those who have evoked your anger or of those who have gone astray and according to the

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Earliest interpretations and found in the Hadith Muhammad indicated that those who have earned

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God's wrath are the Jews and Those who have gone astray are the

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Christians so this also becomes the people the book and so these

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This Surah Fatiha is part of the Muslim prayers every single day. And so every single day every

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Muslim prays not to be a Jew or a Christian so that is

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Important to keep in mind. So yes from Surah Fatiha. Well every day I pray that a Muslim becomes a

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Christian That's right. That's right. There you go. So all right brother stay on stay on hold and we will get your information and oh you do have a

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CD right? I do I do by the grace of God just like my salvation

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Been a real pleasure and it's such a blessing keep the show off. I've learned so much.

18:03

Okay. Thanks a lot. All right God bless. All right, so rich you get those. Sorry. We had to go with the first two callers there

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But if you're online and you'd like to hang online to ask a question later on you've got the first two shots

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I will leave that up to you, but we will be taking calls here in a little while Just wanted to start off with something sort of fun there

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We had these CD things and you can of course get the way that most human beings

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Get record material today In mp3 format or mb4 format

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I imagine would be the technical designation The forgotten

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Trinity is now in audible format. I'm sure it's available on audible .com

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that's where I get most of my stuff I will admit that and So I've had a number of people contact me and I've had a lot of people say why isn't the

18:59

King James only cover controversy? I don't know that it ever could be it would require someone. I mean, how do you do that second there?

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Stuff that deals with textual criticism and stuff like that. How do you how do you put that into audio format?

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Anyways, that's that's really tricky. That'd be very No, I said

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I said that Okay I said hey if they want to hang and ask a question

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I'm not gonna go to it right instantly, but if they want to that's fine. They're they're first in line. So that That's the consolation prize so Real briefly

19:39

Just got back from g3 and I want to thank everyone there for I Don't want this to sound like I'm faulting everyone else who doesn't do this, but I Do think sometimes that that some of the speakers miss out on some of the real fun of g3 by Basically not meeting with anybody

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I've I've lost track of how many hours I have stood Outside the or inside the rooms there at the

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Atlanta Convention Center just talking with people and Signing books taking selfies.

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I mean, it's funny it it is really interesting how things have changed because Now there is almost an understood protocol if you're next in line

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You need to know how to use the person in front of you cell phone To take pictures because you know doing this thing, you know, hey, look at it's a shoulder, you know

20:55

And anybody with a selfie stick I suppose that'd be a nice self -defense weapon if you train to use it but Most people do that.

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So you you just it just sort of how it works out Is that the next person? Takes the picture of the person in front of them and then they give their camera the next person and it it's just sort of how it works and We started that on Thursday on Thursday.

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No, it was a Thursday Thursday about nine o 'clock in the morning and Then I I left about three in the afternoon.

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I did four webcasts Short ones but for webcasts during that time period

21:30

Rich went and got some chick -fil -a For me and we we sat at the at that point we were at the

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Sovereign booth we sat there and ate chick -fil -a and then went back at it and what

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I really like about is It's interesting every year. It's a little different last year

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There were a bunch of IFB people former IFB people that was the predominant thing that kept coming up was

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I was Independent Fundamentalist Baptist and you really helped me to see through that and to get out of that and and That was really really calm we had a number of former oneness folks this year and It's we haven't done anything special on oneness this year, but there were that was there were

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IFB people former Roman Catholics can't I've lost count over the years how many people said

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I read your King James only book and Then I started reading other stuff and now I'm reformed that's a

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Interesting path to get where you're get where you're going but that's that's basically how it worked and So It is really fascinating to get to meet folks and to you know take all the all the pictures and shake all the hands and and a number of you had heard my

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My plea please give me space, please A few people want to do the fist bump thing.

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I don't I didn't mind shaking the hands. I had my my son of pure with me Before I ate food or anything like that but it was it's just a it's just very very enjoyable to have that opportunity to meet with folks and There are just some folks just don't do that.

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They're just some speakers. It just that's not their thing they They're not going to be out there they're doing that kind of stuff and But we did and we moved we didn't have our own booth this year

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So we we basically hung out either at post Tenebrous Lux with Jeffrey Rice and his wife and friends and what they were doing and then one of the first things we did on Thursday is

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Jeffrey and I had teamed up on getting a Bible for Virginia Calperthwaite her young ladies getting close to finishing her and by the way

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Her sister seems to have broken her collarbone Yesterday so pray for them. They're traveling and that's got to be extremely painful.

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There's not much you can do about it I know a lot about that because Cyclists that is the most common cycling injury in a crash is a broken collarbone because you you you try not to do it but if you put that arm out all that weight is going right on this thin little bit of nothing and so There you go and so pray pray for them, but Virginia had had

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One of the pages in her Bible was coming out. She's Pretty close to memorizing her 15th book of the

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New Testament and so Jeffrey and I had gotten some information and had gotten her a new

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ESV a post Tenebrous Lux version, which means it should last a very very long time and So we started off doing that and then so we hung out over there for a while Then we were over at Sovereign and I went back to PTL on Friday after I spoke

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Friday morning but then I definitely in the afternoon because that evening we were doing we some of you already saw because it dropped

24:59

Sunday night the Program we did on cross politic where we it was

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Doug Wilson myself Virgil Walker, we're on the on the couch together and Basically talking well, we talked about a lot of stuff and The added stuff to stuff after the stuff that you have to have a subscription to think it's that type thing

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I really got into some interesting discussions That are I think important and helpful and and stuff like that.

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So we did that as well and then Friday morning Unfortunately, we had technical issues when

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I had my opportunity speaking I've said often that I'm put early in the morning so that Anything I say that causes problems is forgotten by the evening when the big the big boys get up to speak

25:49

So but I did Isaiah 6 and I preached from this isn't it But it looks like it

25:58

I Preached from the Greek Septuagint and this is if you haven't seen it. This is the Hendrickson Two Volume readers edition of the

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Greek Septuagint. And so this is the one that starts with Genesis Exodus and But the second volume

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I left the one I preached from I left with Jeffrey and I'm gonna send him this one We're actually gonna bind these and This was all

26:24

I preached from and the reason I did that if you If you get to see it once it's posted and like I said, there were technical problems.

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I mean They told you it was okay. They told you it was going to be posted The sermon.

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Okay, so I guess they got it, but it didn't live stream correctly There when it came on there was no audio.

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I had the wonderful experience. I had the wonderful experience of standing there at a pulpit in front of thousands of people and then all of a sudden

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Someone's pulling on my belt. I had no earthly idea

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Now everybody else saw I'm coming I assume But the sound guy snuck up behind me

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Because we were getting breakup from you know, this this these fancy -dancy

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Britney Spears microphones that make you wear and I Don't know that it helped any

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I don't know what he could have even done back there. But if you can just imagine being in In the middle of a sermon all right, and Thankfully I had already

27:39

Live translated the text and had gone through the text and I was I was about three or four verses in I guess

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When he did this But I just know certain people that would never recover from that.

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That's what that way I mean, no, no, no, not the day not they turn around punch somebody They they would just never get back into their train of thought it would just it would just be derailed and if you've ever seen a train wreck

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That's what would be the result of everything afterwards is like that. That's that's the end of that but thankfully that's one of the reasons

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I think Lord had me grow up doing radio because stuff would happen on radio that you know, you just had to be you just had to be able to keep going and so I did and So there you go anyhow

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But it didn't live stream properly at the end of it did but at the beginning of it and so when

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I got to New York, I Mentioned that to Doug McMaster's I was speaking at New Hyde Park Baptist Church on issues about textual criticism and canon issues and stuff like that and But I was preaching the

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Sunday morning sermon. I've preached at New Hyde Park for Decades now actually even before Doug was there.

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I had preached at that church and so You know,

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I mentioned that is and it was like well, you could preach it again and there hopefully won't be any sound issues and So I did that's what

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I did for the Sunday morning server There was one guy in the audience that had been there so he had to listen to it twice But nobody else had so that that wasn't an issue and So we've already linked to that one and I sort of like the second one better personally

29:35

Maybe because there wasn't the interruptions and Also because I could see people it's it is weird if you've ever spoken in that situation

29:44

I even made comments before the before I preach this. I hope they turn the audience lights up some Because it was it was really dark in there and I'm not sure exactly why they do that I'm not sure how you could even read your

29:58

Bible If there was really sufficient light, it would be difficult for me. Yeah, everybody's using a phone

30:04

I suppose but But for the speaker You're you're really not seeing faces.

30:12

I mean you can see heads But with the lights in your eyes and The low light out there.

30:22

It's sort of hard to see the see people and that that makes it. I don't know. It's it it's it's an interesting dynamic, let's just put it that way and So I preached that and we've already linked to that and we'll see about when the video comes up What we can model happen with that one other thing real quick, then we'll take our calls.

30:41

I don't want to be too long today Got this off of eBay For 11 bucks brand new in the wrap

30:52

New World Translation the Holy Scriptures Not a bad feeling leatherette type thing it's not real leather obviously you can see the pages have not yet been separated

31:07

Obviously I have my old NWT down there But this is the current revised 2013

31:19

And rendered from the original languages by the New World Bible Translation Committee revised 2013 now be really really interesting to know who was on the revision of this.

31:29

I don't know that anyone actually knows that But it's amazing. This is already seven years old

31:35

Wow Hmm because I remember when word came out that they had put out a new

31:43

NWT and It seemed to me Like that was like three years ago.

31:49

It's 2013. That's depressing But one of the key issues

31:58

In this and there's no way I can show this to you. It's too small but When the

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NWT first came out in the 50s it came out in portions And we know who worked on it.

32:12

We know who the committee was the committee had no scholars with any teaching history whatsoever No translation history.

32:20

No work in that field. No published works in that field. Nothing nothing

32:27

Now your average Jehovah's Witnesses think Witness thinks the greatest scholars in the world worked on this translation when as far as we know

32:34

There is one guy that had two years of Koine Greek was self -taught in Hebrew, and that was it But it is absurdly literal in most places horribly literal

32:49

Its English is is as exciting as Chewing on aluminum foil.

32:56

I mean it is just that bad but it was produced for a specific reason and The reason was to insert

33:04

Jehovah's Witness doctrine in the Bible or at least to remove the passages that are most obviously

33:12

Contradictory to Jehovah's Witness doctrine. So when it first came out Colossians chapter 1 Had Before because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on earth the things visible the things invisible

33:28

Whether there there are thrones or lordships or governments authorities all other things have been created through him and for him

33:33

Also his before all other things by means of him all other things were made to exist Colossians chapter 1 verses 16 to 17 there was such a outcry from Christian scholars and and and everyone else that short

33:48

I'm not sure if the first full printed edition, but shortly thereafter They put the work they put a bracket around the word other

34:01

To show that this is their interpretation and that's how it was up until 2013 and now they've got they've taken it out they've gone back and I Was wondering what the motivations of that would be is it that is?

34:17

It that they they don't Care about what Christians would say or they're just so few

34:22

Christians who even talk about them anymore That they figure they can get away with it. I don't know but my point is if you see this in Someone's hand at church.

34:33

I remember cool 20 years ago walking up the aisle at church One night or Maybe not but anyway, and I remember looking over where a visitor was sitting and they weren't sitting there, but their stuff was there and Not this one.

34:50

This is 2013 edition, but there's a new world translation now Does that automatically mean that the person is a current

34:59

Jehovah's Witness a former Jehovah's Witness? No Because like I said,

35:04

I got mine off eBay and it was brand new So There are literally millions of copies of the

35:14

NWT in used bookstores if there are there aren't very many used bookstores around anymore either, but The the few that are you you will find shells of NWT's green ones and If you can get their old brown one the large one with the study notes, that's that's that's definitely worth having

35:36

But anyway So they may have been given it by a friend. They meant they may not have any idea but it should catch your attention and Someone with some background and knowledge

35:49

Should talk with anybody you see walking in with an NWT Immediate red flag somebody with apologetic understanding needs to Talk to this person and find out where they're coming from and find out if they just think this is just a

36:06

Bible like every other Bible Do they do they know what its background is, you know,

36:11

I think that's just really really important So keep an eye out for it. This is now what the current one looks like I have a red one down there.

36:21

I think in the past you'd get like red and black Maybe even brown but at least red and black

36:26

But remember I told you that last when was I in Durban last some time last year

36:35

Sometime sometime during the summer I Went down to run by the seashore, it's beautiful beautiful.

36:44

I love to watch the sunrise there at Oolonga Bay Oolonga Bay something like that.

36:51

Anyway, um, really nice area and I walked out onto this pier and when

37:00

I got to the end of the pier, I see there's one guy out there in the dark and he's preaching to the ocean and He didn't know

37:12

I was there and then I don't know if I I think it's when I took a picture he realized I was there and so he

37:19

We get together and and I said didn't mean to interrupt you there anything and all I was just thinking about this passage from the

37:26

Psalms and and I Looked at his Bible when he closed the Bible That's it was that one the 2013 the gray one that it looked identical to that, but he was beat to death

37:36

I mean he was held together with tape and So I said so are you one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

37:43

Yes. Yes, but I have a very open mind you know I said and that's what started that conversation and I'm still

37:49

I I gave him my number and One of the things that worries me is

37:55

I wonder if he if he did ever tried to contact me I wonder if because it was for a number.

38:01

It wouldn't even get through that that that concerns me that that's a possibility, but Anyways, we'll see what will happen

38:09

Okay, I'm looking at these and there's three from the US and one from overseas so oh

38:22

Well do we want to go there then all right, okay, all right, let's go to the phone calls. Let's let's talk with with Michael who has one less

38:31

Prince than he used to We're expecting that were you

38:41

Thank you for taking my call dr. White and I'd like to tell you how much your ministry means to me, which is a lot

38:49

So God bless you and rich and all who work there No, you got everybody you got everybody when you said me and rich.

38:56

That's that's that's it Thank you,

39:02

I wanted to ask you about second Corinthians 5 21 it came up in a

39:07

Bible's It came up because we were having a Bible study and somebody said that Jesus became sin and I I disagreed and he pulled up this verse and used this

39:19

I I Tried to look at other verses where it says that Jesus was sinless

39:27

But he kept coming back to this verse and say said this verse says he became sin, especially in the

39:35

Greek I tried to look at this word in the

39:41

Septuagint and Where I believe it's used as a sin offering, but again that didn't hold any water

39:48

So I wanted to ask you about it and find out what your thoughts were well, uh, yeah,

39:53

I Think if I recall correctly, I'd have to look I I think

39:58

I spent some amount of time on this in my book the God who justifies but Or somewhere

40:04

I have and I know when you when you mentioned the reference the first thought across my mind was

40:13

NT Wright Bishop Wright and I Discussed this text on Unbelievable about five or six years ago whenever it was we did that little mini debate that we did on the subject justification

40:24

Because he has a pretty interesting take on this, but you didn't go that direction That's not what your friend was saying, but NT Wright's take on that is that this is only about the

40:35

Apostles Right that and that the righteousness of God is the demonstration that they are

40:43

The the covenant message bearers or something along those lines of of the New Covenant So but that's not what your friend was saying.

40:50

Um Good. I'm I would want to know what he means By being made sin if that is an ontological

41:02

Transformation and I would also want to know what you Would feel because you said you went to passages about Jesus being sinless but that's not the same thing as being made sin and So here's here's what

41:18

I think is is the the proper understanding? He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf

41:27

So that we might become the righteousness of God in him. So this has been called the great exchange Yeah, but it is it's it's very helpful in our understanding of what?

41:38

imputation means Because It does not it does not require that there be an ontological change in the son's nature

41:48

So that he becomes sin or is made sin. Oh, yeah. Oh normally means to be made

41:56

There's no question about that but and this is something that Bishop Wright and I did discuss you'll notice that the word for made

42:05

Pollo and Then that we might become is is not this is is not a direct parallel That we might become is from Ginnomai and so That's that came up in our in our discussion as well

42:23

But but the point is that we might become the righteousness of God in him

42:28

What was it that is going on with Jesus? That makes it possible for us to become the righteousness of God when we are in him and the answer to that is

42:44

Found in the fact that the same Apostle who wrote these words also wrote Romans 8 and Romans 5 and all those passages that that talk about Imputation the imputing of the righteousness of Christ And so when it says that he made him to be new who who knew no sin to be sin in our place

43:09

That doesn't mean that something Changed in Jesus, but our sins are imputed to him

43:18

In the same way then that his righteousness is imputed to us

43:25

So yeah So it's it's not something, you know, if he was if he was because I have heard people say

43:32

Word faith teachers say that there was you know Some type of changing of Jesus and stuff like that and suffering in hell and all the rest that kind of stuff

43:40

That's that's not what's being referred to but there is an exchange that is going on here and that is the sinless one is treated as If he had committed all those sins

43:51

So that those who committed all those sins might be treated as Possessing the righteousness of God and it's the great exchange

44:01

That takes place That that's where I was With it.

44:07

I mean I tried to explain to him I tried to compare it to the sacrifices that there were in the

44:12

Old Testament Especially young people where the high priest would place his head His hands on on the goat and the sins of the nation would right would you know

44:22

The goat didn't actually become the sin and and I also use the second part of the verse to say, you know

44:29

Are you righteous? Because scripture also says that we're not righteous But this verse says we are so how are we made righteous in the same way?

44:38

I said that Jesus became sin, right? Yeah, I think that's a good explanation

44:45

Yeah, okay. Thank you very much for your help. God bless you and I I continue listening to you.

44:52

Okay. Thank you very much. God bless you. Thank you, Dr. White. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Alright, so let's go the do we go the 432?

45:03

Okay. All right Okay, let's talk to another person suffering in Florida.

45:10

Hello, Chris Hello, dr. White, thanks for taking my call Absolutely.

45:17

Love all your stuff on the deity of Christ It's so great. My question for you today is

45:24

And this kind of comes from I've been my dad is really into this Dr.

45:30

Michael Heiser and he's got some weird stuff and I've been trying to kind of figure that out And it seems to me like one of their views is that Yahweh is the highest name in the world

45:40

And I do understand that Jesus is Yahweh. I do understand that but I did hear you say in a debate one time that Jesus Maybe now is the highest name

45:51

Well, I don't know. I don't I don't know how you define highest name There's not there's not a competition

45:57

But he has been given the name which is above all names that the name of Jesus every knee should bow.

46:02

So So now in that context, are we talking about?

46:09

Because when it says he has been given that name which is above all names and This is as the result of his obedience to the

46:17

Father's will and therefore his exaltation There's there's always that We always need to see how scripture avoids any kind of competition

46:32

As if I just I'm trying to get it straight in my right. I understand it's it but it but yeah in in you know in John 5 when when

46:43

You have the statement making himself equal with with God Then Jesus says

46:50

I do nothing but what I see the Father doing and then says you have to honor the Son even as the honor the

46:55

Father and then says The Sun's the source of life And there's perfect harmony between the

47:01

Father and the Son you go to Philippians chapter 2 even when it says he has given the name Which is above every name that the name of Jesus every knee will bow.

47:08

Well, and that's a quotation from Isaiah where it was

47:13

Yahweh's name that Everyone's gonna bow bow to so the only way to to I think in a balanced way see how that works and To allow that to work is to see that in Jesus Yahweh has now been revealed as the

47:35

God man So the you know make weight that make straight the way of who of Yahweh and when he comes to how is he known?

47:43

He was known as Jesus. So if Jesus was was ontologically separate from Yahweh then you'd have a competition but since Since he is in fact

47:55

The second person of the Divine Trinity who is Yahweh who has entered into human flesh

48:01

Then you don't have a you don't have a competition. What you do have. However is in the proclamation of the gospel

48:09

Yahweh was primarily the covenant name of the people of Israel now You have a name that is that is to be taken to all the all the nations

48:19

That speaks of Yahweh is because I mean what is what is Jesus mean? Anyways, what is what is

48:24

Yeshua mean other than Jehovah's Salvation Yahweh's salvation in the first place so now so Jesus name really is just simply the fulfillment of Yahweh's promises post resurrection when you think about that way, okay

48:39

So, okay. Yeah, so there's no competition between them But you have to have the highest view of Jesus for that to be the reality

48:47

If you if you don't, you know, cuz there are some I've actually encountered some Orthodox Christians I just don't think they've thought these things through Who who struggle with the idea that Jesus identified as Yahweh?

49:00

yeah, and Yet, I'm very thankful to report that one of the key and I mentioned this in a dialogue

49:07

I did a couple weeks ago with Douglas Wilson on the Trinity. Well of the key issues that Calvin Often pointed to in defending the idea that Jesus is out of chaos that he is

49:20

God in of himself is That he bears the divine name and if you are property identified as Yahweh, you must be

49:27

God in and of yourself You cannot be God in a derivative fashion and so these are these are issues that Don't come up a lot these days but but they did in the past and if we if we

49:39

If we take John Piper's advice and make sure to read more older books than we do newer books, we'll we'll run into this stuff

49:46

And it'll it'll do good for us Well, I really appreciate it. Okay.

49:52

All right. Thanks. Thanks Chris. Stay stay dry down there in Florida All right, let's talk to now now now

50:04

New Mexico has mountains New Mexico has some beautiful mountains and In fact,

50:11

I have climbed. In fact, I climbed was it last year? Yeah. Yeah on the way home last year I climbed up to the ski station in Santa Fe and that's that's a good 10 ,100 feet something like that.

50:23

So yeah, New Mexico beautiful place. How you doing Robert? I'm doing great. Dr. White.

50:28

How are you doing today doing good? Awesome, I just have one thing for ministry, you know, you hear all the time, but just thank you for what you do

50:36

I have a question. So you and dr. Daniel Wallace or David Wallace?

50:41

I'm sorry one of the other have really gotten me into textual criticism like I'm just a knee deep in it and I love it and I Want to learn more read more and so I'm asking around looking up places of what

50:53

I should read But obviously it's not just Orthodox people who do textual criticism, you know liberals do it too

50:59

And so I'm looking at Bruce Metzger's book, you know text the New Testament You know, and I see Bart Ehrman's name on it and you know,

51:05

I'm like, oh Bart Ehrman Right, so I just want to ask you is that a good book to read or if you could at least you know

51:11

Make give me a book or maybe a few books So if for someone who really wants to dive I mean in the deep end of textual criticism, what would you say?

51:19

Well, uh Yes, better be careful about the deep end because the deep end can be a very very expensive end

51:25

I Mean Yeah, there's a there's a series of books

51:36

That give you a tremendous amount of textual critical information That muster put out a number of years ago.

51:42

They're still extremely useful and they average like $380 of volume. I mean that that's what

51:48

I say. It can get it can get deep that that's that now what you're looking at with the Metzger book is

51:53

Ehrman was Metzger's last doctoral student. And so when he did his last editing

52:00

For the fourth edition. That's how Ehrman's name got on that. I Obviously prefer the second or third edition, even though they're more dated

52:09

Because I I would be concerned about Ehrman's Influence at that particular point, even though I would say that that Ehrman's views probably

52:22

Were not as Negative at the time he was doing that work as they would become only a few years later so it's not like that that book is is gonna kill you but Obviously there would be a little more

52:41

Concerned that you would have so if you can get the third edition then you don't have to worry about it But obviously anything, you know right now when people ask about sexual critical stuff

52:53

There's there's more than we've ever had in the past But at the same time we are in the middle of a revolution and I try to explain this to people and Some people get upset about it and the vast majority of people just don't understand it

53:14

When I say we're in the middle of revolution I'm talking about CBGM and I am pointing out that so far

53:23

CBGM has only been applied to acts and to the general pistols Mark is done.

53:28

I was told that a year ago by the person that's in charge of it, but hasn't been published yet I was really hoping it would be published back in November really need it

53:38

But John is being worked on Mark is done You're gonna have obviously

53:44

Matthew Luke you've got the Pauline corpus I think the last thing that's gonna be done is gonna be revelation because it's such a wild mess

53:51

I don't even know how it's gonna work but the point is that we're in the middle of a revolution and even when

53:58

The ECM is done and you can purchase the already published ECM volumes axes for volumes

54:05

General pistols were a couple volumes 300 bucks pop

54:11

Not each volume but but for like axe was like $320 something like that for the for the volume

54:18

Even when that's done that just means that it's now out and can now be discussed which means there's going to be a revision over time and so That's going to impact

54:33

The Nessie Allen 29th Nessie Allen 30th Nessie Allen 31 Because those the the manual the manual editions that we have

54:43

Specifically UBS and Nessie Allen Simply reflect the ECM. So the ECM is the key is the master text and they are these shorter

54:52

Easier to carry around versions of what's in the ECM so so the only difference between 27 the 28th edition

54:58

Nessie Allen was the general pistols came out and therefore in that section of the

55:03

Nessie Allen you had to Show the changes to the ECM so The 29th edition.

55:10

I'm assuming they're gonna hold that off until you at least have Mark and axe we already got an axe

55:17

Maybe mark maybe John so that there's enough changes to make it worthwhile

55:22

To even do a whole new typesetting and whole new printing of something like that. So that ECM You know, which once it's published will probably be

55:33

Minimally 40 volumes It'll it'll be huge and and but it's being published online as well, which is which is good

55:41

You can access the ECM at the Munster website today as much of it as has been done anyways

55:47

So you've got all of that stuff out there and what that means is

55:53

Metzger's stuff as important as it is in in laying a historical foot grounding and all that stuff is

56:01

If you've read his textual commentary his textual commentary is constantly soaked with the terminology of Alexandrian Western Byzantine so on and so forth

56:14

CBGM is Challenging the existence of those categories other than the Byzantine and so Oh Wow So what do you what are you gonna do?

56:23

I mean, there is a sense in which almost everything currently in print is

56:30

Outdated in light of that and will become more and more outdated as as the next portions of of the

56:40

ECM are released so you have to keep all that in mind and you have to keep in mind the the fact that you have people who don't

56:47

Like CBGM or are pushing back in CBGM the the Tyndale House Creek New Testament behind me there

56:53

Is is somewhat of a pushback against CBGM. So things are in a in a state of flux and so if What happens is people read particular individuals they get into Eldon Epp or something like that If you if you look online at the

57:10

Brill website You'll find lots of books on textual criticism and lots of them are extremely helpful but they average between 160 and 320 dollars per volume because they're almost always purchased by Universities and libraries if you've got a good

57:27

University nearby then you can get those books without having to spend that kind of money if you don't then it can be somewhat of a challenge there's lots of that stuff out there, but in my opinion

57:41

You always have to keep in mind where we are right now and where it's going and That means that you

57:51

You're gonna read stuff and go. Okay, that's how we used to refer to things But we're gonna not gonna be able to be doing that in the future

57:57

So I you know, you take some things the grain of salt you this conclusion You can't necessarily come to so on and so forth.

58:03

So it's a it's a challenging time There's there's there's no it's challenging because there's some it's it's a good time

58:11

But it is a challenging time. I'm sure you've seen My goodness. This is like the fourth time.

58:17

This person is called. I am I am really gonna have to pick that one up Let me reach over here a second

58:24

And Okay Obviously, you'll want to pick up the myths and mistakes in New Testament text for criticism

58:40

Elijah Hickson Yeah, and You know and there's there's all sorts of It's helpful because has all sorts of different perspectives that you have to you know weigh and consider and That doesn't necessarily mean that every every article is equal to every other article as far as its balance and things like that's concerned

59:06

But a lot of good up -to -date information that is that is extremely helpful as well and then of course anything like this is going to eventually have in in Normally at the end, yeah, there's a how many pages as a big bibliography in that baby and bibliographies are

59:28

The book buyers dream that's that's where you you get so much of of your good stuff

59:34

So if you see a particular I imagine I imagine so she may just rip it right out of there.

59:40

I get it So yeah, check check the notes in the bibliography. That's gonna that's gonna be a really good source for stuff like that Okay All right.

59:49

Thank you. Dr. Dr. Why you have a wonderful bless day. All right. God bless. All right. Bye. Bye All right.

59:55

Let's get one more in here and let's talk to Devonta in Texas Don't good

01:00:08

My question is about Christology Um First I wanted to say

01:00:17

You have been very instrumental in me deepening my knowledge in the word and Growing in the joy of the

01:00:25

Lord aside from John Piper. You were probably one of the most influential persons. I've never met

01:00:32

That I've never met that's Well, you'll be disappointed if you if we ever do so, okay, it may be very good that way

01:00:40

So I've had a lot of I thought you'd be taller. Well, I don't know. I'm probably uglier too. So But I am

01:00:47

I'm pretty much the same person in person as I am here I really am like that's what that scares people.

01:00:54

They expect me to be somehow differently in person But maybe we'll get together someday. I do get down to Texas. I'm trying to get down to Texas this year, too

01:01:00

So we'll see what happens That would that would be good because I talked to Catholic answers and they promised me

01:01:06

Tim Staples promised he would sit down with me. So it would be great if you just walk in out of that That would be fun

01:01:12

I Tim Staples and I were both in Sydney, Australia at the exact same time only a few months ago and we were ready to debate

01:01:19

But hey, it didn't work out. So anyway, I remember I heard you talk about that So go ahead.

01:01:25

Um, so my question it's about eternal generation of the Sun. Uh -huh. So can you

01:01:32

Can you deny eternal generation but still affirm the eternality of the

01:01:38

Sun Like are those can you affirm one but deny the other like or is that like a package deal?

01:01:48

Hmm well Obviously prior to Nicaea there are numerous writers that we would consider to be

01:01:59

Christians that Would not utilize post Nicene Orthodox terminology and We have to try to put them in some type of a box as to where they would have fallen on these things

01:02:14

Which is often mainly speculative, but there were subordination as tendencies in a lot of writers

01:02:22

That's really why why Nicaea had to happen partially because You part of the problem people need to realize is that the controversies that led up to Nicaea first of all, it had included a rejection of Monarchial modalistic a

01:02:45

Type of thinking one we would call it oneness thinking today. So there had been an emphasis upon the the necessary Distinctions of the persons but once that was settled in the sense that there was a general agreement that modalism was an error then there had to be a discussion of the relationships of the persons and that's what leads to areas and therefore to Nicaea and then once you have the

01:03:11

The assertion of the homoous eus clause that there is they're sharing one nature the being of God Is being shared by three divine persons now the question comes up.

01:03:25

Well, what's the relationship the divine persons? It's one thing economically the economic

01:03:31

Trinity in redemption, but then theoretically prior to Creation what how are the divine persons distinguished from one another?

01:03:42

This is the conversation that you probably heard the Doug Wilson. I had On this particular subject and we did you hear that?

01:03:50

Did I actually watch it yesterday? Okay. Okay good. So we talked about the opera at intra in the opera at extra the internal operations of the relationship of Father Son and Holy Spirit and that's where you get into this issue and This issue is in regards to the utilization for example the term monogamous in regards to Jesus and What you have is you you have a development after Nicaea Through the

01:04:23

Christological controversies the pollinarianism eutychianism Nestorianism, etc, etc. You have a

01:04:33

General and they're the Stuff back in 2016 going on through today demonstrated that there's still disagreement as to exactly

01:04:43

How you would necessarily define post -nicene orthodoxy because both sides in the eternal subordination

01:04:50

Controversy claimed post -nicene orthodoxy as their own the issues primarily focus upon When you speak of the eternal generation of the

01:05:00

Sun, are we speaking? Solely in regards to an identity and identifying

01:05:12

Non -temporal relationship That could be that that flows out in words like we have in John 14 1516 the the father and the son send the spirit the father sends the son the father son send the spirit

01:05:30

Proceeding from the father and son. This is where you get all the issues of procession Spiration these were all the terms that were being used in in post -nicene orthodoxy to to talk about these things and obviously

01:05:45

As I pointed out in in the conversation with Doug once you get past the fundamentally correct assertion that the hypostatic

01:05:57

Union accurately Reflects what the New Testament teaches about Jesus They crucified they would not have crucified the

01:06:06

Lord of Glory the very phrase crucified Lord of Glory You can't crucify the Lord of Glory as you can because the hypostatic

01:06:12

Union But once you get to that point you can once you go past that You start getting deeply into the weeds where you're you're really not any longer able to bring direct scriptural

01:06:29

Categories to bear you're just you're just not because it's not something that the Holy Spirit has

01:06:35

Decided to make an issue of revelation. And so at that point you're getting into stuff where well, it would be best not to say that because that might be taken to mean this down the road and so many people

01:06:51

Don't think about these things that they might hold a position that yeah could be unorthodox down the road

01:06:57

But they don't they never go there because they're they're never pushed to go there They never even think about those types of things and things like that so when we talk about eternal generation that can go either direction if we if we understand it in a

01:07:11

Non temporal identification category Similar to how

01:07:17

CS Lewis described the same reality when he he said well, it's like you have two books and If in fact,

01:07:27

I have two books right here. Okay, so I've got the Septuagint and I've got the myths and mistakes book and the myths and mistakes book is sitting on top of the

01:07:36

Septuagint and if I move the Septuagint the myth and mistake books going to fall So its position is depend upon the

01:07:42

Septuagint So in a sense you could say that the one is depend upon the other but what if they had eternally been like this?

01:07:49

There had never been a time When this was not the situation then

01:07:55

This that's what Lewis was talking about when he talked about father and the son is that it's a it's a eternal

01:08:02

Non beginning relationship that simply allows us to distinguish the persons But it can't be taken into the subordination a sphere a sphere of saying.

01:08:13

Well, that means the upper book is lesser than lower book Because it's eternally been that way

01:08:18

And so if you see eternal generation in that sense that the son is in the bosom of the father

01:08:24

He always does what is pleasing to him, etc, etc Then you see the value in that type of language where it becomes problematic from my perspective as you heard in my conversation with Doug is

01:08:38

I think Calvin was right Calvin lived in a day when and this is this is

01:08:46

I think a lot of The conversation today takes place amongst people who never do meaningful apologetics outside of Christianity They never deal with Muslims they never deal with with Jehovah's Witnesses They don't deal with anybody and so they're in the

01:09:01

Academy, but they're the Academy doesn't think apologetics is relevant Calvin was not in that position and Calvin lived in a day

01:09:09

He was a second -generation reformer where you had all sorts of anti -trinitarian groups rising up claiming

01:09:17

The authority of the Reformation saying hey you guys overthrew what Rome taught on this this this and this why not this and so he lived in a day where he he recognized the absolute importance of Making sure the foundations were absolutely firm and he saw that if you take as some post -Nicene writers did and say that the concept of generation means that the sons essential

01:09:52

Participation in the being of God is mediated to him by the father and That therefore only the father is autotheos

01:10:06

Which means God of himself The son is not autotheos. The spirit is even less autotheos if you go there.

01:10:14

There is no Stopping place. There's no there's no place you can

01:10:20

Attach a hook and stop the cart from going all the way down to rank subordination ism and Aryan ism and I think

01:10:29

Calvin was right. And so the issue is not so much the language of Eternal generation the problem is of the problem is we read

01:10:43

Okay, the problem with the phrase eternal generation of the Sun is that we read it out of order what

01:10:50

I mean by that is instead of starting with eternal which automatically removes all

01:10:57

Concepts of temporality and Therefore renders all relationships logical in nature rather than Temporal or time -based

01:11:10

We read it straight through We we don't really say that we read the second term first and Interpret everything else in light of that.

01:11:19

So generation for us We absolutely speaks of priority superiority source

01:11:27

Etc, etc in time and temporality and so we lose the eternal part which is supposed to get rid of the temporal categories

01:11:34

We read the generation part and then if you take that so far as to then say only the father is autotheos

01:11:42

Then you've got I think serious problems most of the conversation the eternal support nation of the

01:11:49

Sun stuff in 2016 and since then Some of it has gone to attempt to say what we need to do is re -emphasize a proper understanding of the eternal generation of the

01:12:03

Sun That does not contain those concepts, but I have seen very little

01:12:11

And I I could have missed it. I Come out but I've seen very little concern about the

01:12:24

Sun is autotheos and That for me is is

01:12:29

Extremely important extremely important and I think there would be more Concern about it if more of the people involved in the conversation were taking this conversation and its results

01:12:41

I I as you heard when I said the Doug I just I'm sorry I really struggle with applying this stuff to human relationships between men and women

01:12:51

It's backwards to me. It is just going at it the wrong direction. I hear the argument, but I just don't get it that's right, that's why

01:12:59

I pushed back on some of the language is That these are absolutely unique relationships that I do not see are mirrored in in humanity and so When when you when you go that far you end up I think creating some serious serious issues

01:13:16

And if people were out more I think with people outside of the Christian faith

01:13:22

Either either our our heretics like Jehovah's Witnesses or outside that Islam things like that then they would

01:13:32

Probably see why I'm as concerned about some of the language that is used as I am But so much this conversation is just within the church and it's happening with monks theologians that would would

01:13:44

Almost never take the time to talk to somebody who is from from another perspective because they would go that's that's not my area

01:13:49

We leave that to other people. So so that's that's a concern for me. Did I touch on anything that was relevant there? Yes, so you said

01:13:58

Something about Jesus and the father being you said how do they ask?

01:14:03

What did you say? I'll talk they ask is Altaar is like the term autonomy

01:14:10

Autonomy Altaar is simply the Greek word for self. And so I'll talk they ask means

01:14:17

God in and of himself without having to have godship

01:14:24

Mediated to him by someone else. So what I said was certain post -Nicene

01:14:30

Writers sort of got to the point of saying that the eternal generation of Sun means that the father is

01:14:36

Altaar they ask and Then he mediates deity to the Sun but the

01:14:42

Sun is not Altaar they ask and Calvin I think rightly said that that's gonna lead to subordination ism so I guess my answer your question would be

01:14:55

The the phrase has a obviously a proper unorthodox interpretation

01:15:02

But it needs I think it needs to be always utilized within the emphasis of The Sun and the

01:15:11

Spirit is Altaar they ask as well to correct what I think is a natural misinterpretation on our part where we emphasize generation as a subordination making characteristic

01:15:27

Okay All right, thanks brother, you know when I said

01:15:32

I see you know get down to Texas Texas is like an entire country So it's it's not like you know, you go one place and oh, hey,

01:15:40

I can come there. Well, not really Well, I Probably Unfortunately the the part that most everybody always goes to Dallas Fort Worth may be out to Lindale So that that general that general area

01:15:57

When would you be going I we're working on that we're working on that we're working on that I would love to if Jeff is going

01:16:06

It would be even better because I can be both you at the same. Oh if Jeff is going, huh? I'll let him know

01:16:16

All right, thanks brother we'll talk to you later god bless See that Jeff see

01:16:25

If you come, you know, then fine, you know, but it's just me Okay, all right, all right

01:16:35

Wow in -depth stuff obviously But hopefully those calls were helpful to you

01:16:43

I I Want to try to do something on Thursday? I just don't know if between now and then

01:16:50

I'm gonna have time to do the editing of the sound file to get it all done and I And if you don't do it, right, this would be a dangerous subject.

01:16:58

We'll see. We'll see but we will see you again Lord -willing on Thursday. Thanks for watching.