Are Couples Who Refuse to Have Kids Basically Selfish Jerks?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, are couples who refuse to have kids basically selfish jerks?

01:43

So this is an episode that I've actually been looking forward to doing myself because I am actually the person who was a bit of a selfish jerk as it came to this topic, and now thankfully, through the mercy of the

01:59

Lord, after having it brought to my attention, I've gotten to have a kid myself and really come to realize just how great of a gift it is to have kids.

02:10

And so I'm really excited to talk about this subject with you, Tim, and kind of pick your brain as it comes to some of the questions that I have in mind that I've been thinking through, and I think

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I have a special ability to have a certain type of perspective, having been the selfish person myself.

02:34

So hopefully I can ask you some pretty good questions that you can clarify, because I think what

02:42

I have in mind is probably what a lot of people are thinking in general, which is, it's really kind of interesting.

02:52

I think the general consensus right now in our society, if you go on social media, if you watch

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TV, you know, if you just kind of observe people and how they live their lives,

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I think the general kind of consensus that you're going to get is that most people kind of think of children as a bit of a burden and kind of like a curse, really, if you want to put it that way.

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It seems like kids are something that really you just want to avoid at all costs almost.

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Like, you go to the restaurant and you see the married couple and their baby is crying and being really loud, and I think most people's response immediately is to think like, wow, this is really inconveniencing my dinner.

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The children that are screaming and crying for whatever reason. And so I think in general, most people kind of, most unbelievers view children as a bit of a curse.

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But then the interesting thing to, as I've been, you know, thinking about the subject, as I've been observing people and what they think about children, one of the interesting things is

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I've actually kind of come to the conclusion myself, at least anecdotally, that really, it seems like most

04:16

Christians kind of have the same response too. Has that been your experience as well?

04:24

Certainly, yeah. We're living in a society right now that basically despises children and despises the idea of, you know, having them.

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You know, I could tell you stories about like what you're talking about. My wife just went to the grocery store and I think just a few days ago she had an experience where there was a man who was essentially staring at her with, you know, all five of our kids at the grocery store.

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And, you know, they weren't being crazy or anything else, but he was just looking at her and basically came up to her at some point and said, you know,

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I pity you, you know. Having to deal with all these kids and she, you know, she just looked at him like, you know, why?

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But he quickly changed his tone after she told him, you know, essentially that she doesn't view her kids as a curse and she's very thankful for him.

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She should have pressed him. No, tell me why. No, she did, she did. She pressed him.

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Like, you know, why would I need to be pretty? You know, I love my kids, that kind of thing.

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But you're certainly living in a society right now that is hostile to the idea of kids.

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You're living in a world that really is dead set on killing as many of them as you can.

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And we're persuaded, we're living in a delusion where we're persuaded that the world is overpopulated and the only hope for humanity is basically to cull the herd, so to speak.

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And so that's, I mean, those are things that are happening at a societal level. If you, you know, just go to any kind of college or major university and you're going to find that there is a hostility towards children that is satanic.

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I mean, it really is satanic. Satan has a vested interest in trying to destroy us. He was a murderer from the beginning and he wants us to declare war on the idea of children.

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And there's been plenty of societies that essentially have done that and, you know, are in deep trouble because they're not replacing their population as far as those things are concerned.

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But then, you know, the church is worldly and is doing the same kind of thing. And so it's, you know, you're living in a culture right now that's hostile to kids, period.

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And the church typically follows the suit. Right. And one of the things

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I wanted to ask you starting off is, you know, why exactly is that?

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I mean, it seems like, like you said just a second ago, kids are basically a very important building block when it comes to creating any sort of society in general.

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So why is it that so many people, including Christians, are so seemingly repelled at the thought of having kids?

07:18

Yeah, I mean, there's no one answer to that kind of question, obviously. But, you know, I do think you have to realize that we are living in a world that is held captive by the evil one.

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And, you know, Satan is a murderer. He is a murderer and he has designs to basically destroy us at almost every single level.

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And that is his character. And so everything that he promises is ultimately attempting to undermine

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God's basic plan for humanity. And he's like one of those, you know, serial killer kind of friends who is seeking you harm.

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You know, I mean, when you think about his plans, like he promises good, he promises pleasure, he promises life.

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But then, you know, there's a dagger, you know, underneath that plan that he intends to put in your back.

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And so there is a hostility that he has towards the idea of children, period, because they stand so central to God's actual plans for the world.

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And there's no greater sign of life than children. And he's devoted to death.

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So there's that. I mean, there's a spiritual battle that's going on along those lines. But then, you know, the logic of the world is essentially that, you know, we're living in order to be happy.

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And if you're thinking about happiness as involving just getting everything you want and having no one who stands in the way of your dreams and your goal and your plans and your vision and everything else, then kids fundamentally are going to be individuals who, they're either going to teach you that it's more blessed to give than receive, as the

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Bible says, or they're going to be objects that stand in the way of your own personal fulfillment and your own personal happiness.

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I mean, it takes thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to raise a child, you know, from start to finish.

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And there's nothing really more helpless than a child. You know, as a child comes into the world, they come into the world needy, and they need your time, they need your money, they need your resources.

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You know, they're going to stand in the way of, you know, the teaching of feminism at that point, which basically tells women that they're going to find their ultimate fulfillment in being just like men and taking on the jobs of men.

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And so, you know, if you want to kill all of your career aspirations, then you have a kid. And that's going to stand in the way of your goals and your plans and the things you want to do.

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I mean, at a practical level, I mean, you can't really help. But, like, if you have kids, like, you can't do the things that you used to do.

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You don't have the freedom of your time that you used to have. You don't have freedom of money. You know, when I was a single person, if I wanted to go, you know, go to a restaurant,

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I'd go to a restaurant. If I want to go see some, you know, family in a different city, I'd just, you know, get in my car and grab a few clothes and go drive, you know, and do that kind of thing.

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I mean, I remember when I was in early college, there were times where I was a little bit lonely and I wanted to go visit my aunt or something like that.

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And I just packed up and drove an hour away and just hung out with them for a little bit.

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And there was nothing to stop me from doing that kind of thing. But then when you have kids, it's a big production and there's a lot to it.

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And we're selfish, you know. So we basically, if you're looking at everything through the lens of what does it do for me kind of thing, and does it stand in the way of my me time and my happiness?

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And, you know, kids can be burdens in that kind of way. Right. One thing

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I always tell people is whenever, you know, people are meeting my daughter for the first time, one of the things that I always tell them that I've come to realize is just like marriage, when you first get married, you immediately realize a lot of the ways in which you're a very selfish person in general.

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And that's just because all of a sudden you're having to change your life in significant ways and you've got to start thinking about this other person in a very significant way.

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So now your time is not your own anymore, you know. Even things like your body isn't your own anymore in marriage.

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And so in a lot of ways it reveals a lot of selfishness that has just never been challenged before in your life.

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But then even more so, children, you know, they take that to a whole new level basically because they're affecting pretty much everything about your life.

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Once you have a kid, you know, it fundamentally changes the way that you live your life. And I'm sure the more you add on to that, the more exaggerated that change becomes where even like when you eat and when you sleep, those are no longer things that you get to decide when you're going to do all the time.

12:09

It is a pretty, I mean, it's an awesome, not in the trite sense of that word, like awesome like a cheeseburger awesome.

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It truly is an awesome like responsibility that an individual takes on like when you have a kid.

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Meaning there's no take backs at that point. You're literally determining to like give your life for this person and take full responsibility of it.

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And there's no like, you know, I tried that out, you know, like a pad or something like that. There's no 14 day trial.

12:42

I tried it. I mean, you know, people, you know, ridiculously treat pets as if it's the same level.

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But I mean, it's just like, you know, if you don't like the pet, you can, you know. You can find someone to take your pet.

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You can hand them off, you know, but you can't really do that with a kid. So, I mean, without being thrown in jail or something like that.

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But I mean, it is a big responsibility. And I think a lot of people are not as mature as generations past were.

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So we're much less mature than, you know, our former generations. And so there's this sense in which individuals, they want to get married because they want to have sex, but then, you know, they don't want all the responsibilities that come with that in general.

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They're not really, you know, there's something about like having a kid that makes you feel like an adult in a way that, you know, maybe even getting married doesn't, you know?

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Yeah. So. Yeah, it definitely sanctifies you in a very strong sense,

13:53

I guess. Sure. It pushes you. So I guess in terms of thinking about, you know, this responsibility to have children,

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I think whenever you think about having children or any kind of command that God might have given for having children, probably one of the first places that most people are going to instantly think of if they've really, you know, read their

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Bible at all or have even just, you know, lived in the Bible belt or something where they've heard all the stories or whatever.

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One of the first places you're gonna go is probably Genesis. In the first few chapters when

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God gives the command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, right?

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And so whatever you think about what that means now, the thing that you can't argue is that this is a command that was given to Adam and Eve.

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So I guess my first question for you in relation to that is why exactly did

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God tell Adam and Eve to do this? I mean, it's pretty much one of the first things He tells them to do is to be fruitful and multiply.

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So why did He give them this command and so quickly to?

15:22

Sure. Well, I mean, He didn't just give it to Adam and Eve. So that's part of the point is that, you know, He gave that command to Adam and Eve to basically tell them who they are, where they're coming from, where they're going, what

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His plan is for the world. And so, you know, He gave it to them, but then

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He also gave it to Noah. So there's a repetition of it with Noah after the flood. And part of the reason why it's repeated there is just to emphasize that this indeed is a corporate command given to the entire human race and reflects

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God's intention for humanity at a pretty fundamental level. So I think if you want to try to understand what's actually happening in the

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Bible, you can think in terms of two corporate commands that basically govern the basic answer to the question, why are we here?

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You know, what is God's plan for us? What is God's purpose for us? And those two corporate commands are this creation mandate that's found in Genesis, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it.

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You know, I call that essentially the Great Commission of the Old Covenant. And so basically if you want to think about God's plans for humanity, first it's fill the world up full of people.

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That's essentially what you have there. And then the New Covenant, God's, the other corporate command is to make disciples of all nations.

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And so you think in terms of these two corporate commands, one, fill the world up full of people, and then two, fill the world up full of disciples, essentially, if you want to think about it in a simplistic way.

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But I mean, like the point though is just to say that God, God has designed for the world is to fill the world full of the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea. So as you think about that kind of plan,

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God wants the entire earth to be filled with the knowledge of Him. And, you know, John will tell us that the time is coming and now is where God is seeking, you know, worshipers to worship

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Him. And so God's plan is to, you know, basically fill the world up full of worshipers.

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And that's His intention for humanity. That's why you're here, because someone was obedient to this plan that God had for humanity.

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And this reflects our design that God has designed us. And I mean, we have bodily cycles, which essentially are screaming at us every, you know, if you're a guy, every day, multiple times a day.

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You have a body cycle that is telling you that God's designed you to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth.

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And, you know, if you're a woman, you have a monthly cycle that's essentially doing something very similar. It's telling you that God has designed you to be creative, to reflect certain attributes of His character.

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God's a creator God, and He's designed us to create, not, you know, out of nothing, ex nihilo, but He's designed us to be creative just like He is and to bring new life into the world and to reflect

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His character and to fulfill His purposes. And so, you know, God's plan is to fill the world up full of people and fill the world up full of disciples.

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And, you know, He obviously is doing that through the church. But that's His design for humanity. And that's why the world hates it so much, is because it reflects these basic, fundamental worldview questions, why we're here.

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And this is inescapably God's plan. And as much as we want to rebel against it and reject it,

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I mean, it's obvious that God has made us to do this. And that's why, you know, pretty much everyone wants to be in a relationship of some sort.

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They may not want to be married, but everyone, they feel deep down to their soul that they don't like this idea of just being so alone by themselves.

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They know intuitively that God's designed them to couple with another human being in order to advance

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His purposes in the world. And, I mean, you know, I think it's just inescapable.

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It's just God's plan. It's God's design for the world. It's just obvious. So that's part of what

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I'd say to that. Well, one of the other things I was going to ask you was, you know, do these commands still stand today?

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I know I've heard a lot of people, and I think at one point I probably, I never vocalized this, but I probably did think it if I had ever thought to really put all my beliefs on this down on paper or something.

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One thing that I've heard a lot of people say is, essentially, you know, yeah, all right, so God gave the command to be fruitful and multiply.

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He gave that to Adam and Eve because the world was empty.

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They were the only two people. You know, if you believe that God actually made Adam and Eve and did everything that He said in Genesis, literally, then there's only two people.

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And someone's got to fill up the world. And, you know, the dating options are limited if you're

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Adam or if you're Eve. But the same deal for Noah.

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The world is empty, essentially. You know, now there's eight people,

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I think, instead of two, but it's the same idea. Everyone was just killed in the flood.

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Someone's going to have to fill up the world again. But we live in a different day and age now.

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The world isn't empty, you know. The world is more populated than it's ever been.

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And so I've heard a lot of people basically say, hey, look, those were commands given to them.

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They don't really apply to us anymore because basically, you know, I guess they've been fulfilled, is the way that they would probably put it, is hey, this command's been fulfilled.

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The world's full, you know, so we don't really need to hold ourself to this command anymore.

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So my question for you is, what is your response to that objection?

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Because you've already told us, hey, it still stands. So explain why it still stands, why we can't just say, hey, it's not a, why we can't say it's a different day, it's a different age.

21:42

Don't worry about that command anymore. Sure, I mean, the only way that that can make any kind of sense is if essentially you go full

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Marcionite and just say, hey, that's the Old Testament or something along those lines.

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Go full Andy Stanley. We need to unhitch it. We need to unhitch ourselves from the

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Old Testament because it's an embarrassment to, you know, poor old Andy. But no,

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I mean, like, you know, you can't go that route. I mean, the

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Bible says what's written in former times was written for our instruction, that the man of God may be competent and equipped in every good work.

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I mean, we, what's written in older, in the former times is the Old Covenant.

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We have the Old Testament that's written to us that tells us God's basic commands for us. I mean, this is pre -Mosaic law.

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So, I mean, this is like, you know, these are creational features that are given to us to basically tell us, you know, why we're here.

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Genesis itself is a book of origins. It's designed to answer these basic questions.

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And so, you know, part of it is just, you know, individuals who are making those kind of, that kind of argument, they're essentially, they don't know what to do with the

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Old Testament and they don't know how to understand and apply what's actually written in the Old Testament.

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So part of it's that. And so, you know, the only way that you're gonna come to the kind of conclusion you're saying is essentially to, you know, adopt some kind of red letter form of Christianity where you just ignore the

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Bible and that kind of thing. But I mean, you know, you just look through Genesis and one of the things you're gonna find is that you're gonna find all the basic features of life that God has designed for us, you know, for every single age.

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So, you know, in the book of Genesis you're gonna learn that murder is wrong. Well, why is, you know, why would that change over time, right?

23:35

So these are creational features. You know, God's given us dominion over the animals. Well, you know, have we advanced far beyond that now to where now the animals should have dominion over us?

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You know, so in that same blessing, He blessed them be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion over the, you know, the animals.

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And then you've been given plants for food and everything else. Like all these things are just like, in order to overturn part of it, you have to overturn all of it, but there's no evidence that any of it should be overturned.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. But then not only that, I mean, just read through Isaiah 11, 9, and this is just something that you have to think through.

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So Isaiah 11, 9 says, they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea. So if you think about that, the earth and God's plan for the world is that the earth be filled with the knowledge of the

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Lord as the water covers the sea. So what you need, if you want to understand, well, what is

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God's definition of full? It seems like God's definition of, you know, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth full of people.

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In order for the whole earth to be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea, that means that we have a long way to go.

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It probably looks a lot more like Coruscant from Star Wars. Yeah, sure, sure.

24:55

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and so, and like the thing is that God will have his purpose accomplished.

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And so we need to keep on going, you know, until we get this place, you know, as full of the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea, meaning comprehensively full. So there's no, like, there's no, we're not there yet.

25:19

I mean, you know, you can fit the entire population of the world in Texas with every single human being having, you know, a thousand square foot to themselves.

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So now that doesn't say, you know, how you're going to make food and everything else. But like the point though, is to say that we have a long way to go before the earth is filled with the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea. There's a long way to go. Right. So why is

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God giving this command to Adam and Eve, to Noah, and to all of us?

25:53

Why is he giving us this command to have children? Why is it such an important aspect of our purpose for being here?

26:05

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I can try to answer that question and give you one more answer to the last one too.

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But, you know, you're asking the question, well, how do we know that this command is still relevant?

26:22

And why did he give it to us? Well, you know, part of how you're going to answer those kind of questions is to look at the scripture itself.

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But then you do have to look at our design, like God's fundamental design for humanity. And one of the things you can find is he made us to reproduce.

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So we have bodies that are telling us that he made us to reproduce. So we have bodies that are intentionally designed to do that.

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And not only that, he's put in us desires for companionship. He's put in us desires to actually have kids.

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I mean, women have a lot stronger desire to have kids than men do typically. Men just like the process, you know.

26:59

So as far as that's concerned, but these are intrinsic to our very design.

27:07

So it's almost like trying to ask the question, how do you know these things still apply?

27:13

It's almost as absurd as asking the question, how do you know that God still wants you to use your eyes?

27:21

I mean, it's just like, what a dumb question, right? It's like, I mean, what do you do? You just pluck out your eyes.

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How do I know that God still wants me to see? It's just like, well, no. They're obviously made for a reason, man.

27:33

And your bodies are obviously made for a reason. So that's what they're there. It's more than just, there's an argument based on design, not just an argument based on scripture at that point, that God's obviously designed you to do certain things, and you have a body screaming at you to do it.

27:50

So you might want to just do what you're designed to do. What a waste it is. You can imagine it's just a waste in every area of life to have something designed for a purpose and then just to totally not use it for the purpose that it's made.

28:05

But why, like the point you're asking. Hey, before you answer the question that I actually initially asked,

28:13

I want to push back a little bit on what you're saying, because I think there are going to be a lot of people who are listening who are going to have this thought immediately come into their mind.

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And so at the risk of getting ahead of ourselves a little bit in the conversation, I want to provide this pushback.

28:32

Part of what you're saying is, beyond just the fact that we don't have any scripture that tells us, hey, good job filling the earth and subduing it, being fruitful and multiplying.

28:46

You're good on that one. But besides the fact that there's no verse that actually says that, or does anything even close to saying anything like that, basically what you're saying is, hey, look, our design hasn't changed in any way.

29:00

We still have all of the same desires that Adam and Eve would have had when it came to this. We have the same anatomical structure that they would have had when it comes to reproduction.

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Same cycles, everything, it's the same. It hasn't changed. So knowing that, that's a way we can look at creation itself and basically that, along with knowing what the scriptures actually say, we can, with confidence, tell one another, hey, no, this is still a command that we need to obey.

29:41

The pushback that I think some people are going to bring up is when it comes to things like contraceptives, and I know this is probably getting a little bit ahead of ourselves in the conversation, but I think there will probably be a group of people who would say, hey, look, no, science is a gift from God.

30:04

God has given us many blessings through science, and one of those blessings is contraceptive.

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So he wouldn't have allowed us to have these things if he didn't think we needed to slow it all down now.

30:21

So yes, we still have the design. We still have the desires, but then he's given us this new tool to still fulfill all those things, just like Paul says we need to do, but then he's given us a tool to prevent us from overpopulating or something like that in birth control, basically.

30:43

So what is your response to that kind of critique of your argument?

30:49

Sure, I mean, science gives us plenty of things that... You can't argue from what is to what ought to be, essentially.

31:00

So science has given us sex robots. So what?

31:06

Does that mean that God doesn't want us to get married to women anymore? I mean, you have to think.

31:13

You can't just say, hey, science has come up with some new thing. So therefore, science doesn't have power to define morality or the ingenuity of man doesn't have the power to overturn morality as far as that goes.

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And so you have to think through what God's actual purpose and God's actual intention for humanity is.

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And the reality is that we can use science in such a way to help us to fulfill the purposes that God has for us or we can use science in such a way to basically overturn

31:51

God's plans and purposes for humanity. The Bible says that the sons of this age marry and are given into marriage.

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And so you have to ask, where are we at in God's timeline? And it seems to me that God's timeline is that the sons of this age marry and are given into marriage.

32:08

And God's design for man is going to be fulfilled throughout this age and we don't need to worry about it.

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We just need to busy ourselves with the joyful task of doing the things that he's called us to do.

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And science isn't a trump. The new inventions aren't a trump. Science has given us a virtual church but that doesn't mean that that's actually a church.

32:30

So science, you can't just use any kind of new technology to overturn clear commands and purposes and God's design for humanity in that way.

32:41

I mean, obviously, humanity in rebellion against God can invent remarkable technologies that will stand in opposition to God's plan.

32:51

But you look to the Bible to tell us what God's plans are and not whatever new inventions we come up with. Okay, well, going back to the original question

33:00

I posed, why is it that God commands us to have kids?

33:08

Why is it such an important part of our purpose for being here?

33:14

Sure, yeah. So I mentioned a few of those things already but then I think we're here in order to we bear the image of God.

33:24

So man is created in God's image and we bear the image of God and there's certain activities a lot of the activities we engage in are going to be activities in which we are representing

33:36

God's character in a certain way. So God obviously created us. He created man, his own image.

33:43

God created everything out of nothing. We can mirror certain attributes of His character,

33:49

His creative nature in bringing forth children into the world. So obviously we're not doing it on our own apart from His grace.

33:56

He knits children together in His mother's womb. But His design for us is to create new people and to be like Him in that kind of way.

34:06

Part of the funny thing about asking a question like this why would God do this? All you have to do is ask yourself do you like being alive?

34:17

I am partial to it. Are you glad your parents had you? So in a certain sense it's a privilege to be able to bring new life into the world and it's a moral responsibility that we have to bring new life into the world.

34:34

I'm certainly glad that I had the opportunity to be alive and that certainly is a blessing to me.

34:41

So God's plan is to bless humanity and I mean it just hurts your brain trying to think about answering that kind of question what it would be like to not exist.

34:56

But then all the blessings that God has given me throughout the entirety of my life you have to think about it this way all the blessings that I've ever experienced throughout the entirety of my life were dependent upon the action of my parents to bring me into this world.

35:13

So God has a plan to bless humanity and that plan is going to be fulfilled through our obedience to what

35:20

He says. So the more obedient we actually are the more people there will be to experience the blessings that God has for us to experience and the chief of which is to actually know

35:35

God. So the Bible says the earth will be full of the knowledge of the

35:40

Lord like the waters cover the sea and I mean God wants the greatest good of humanity is that we know

35:47

God and we're not going to know Him unless we exist. So there's that.

35:54

There's a lot more you can say to that but certainly. Remind me,

36:02

I can't remember if you brought this up or not but I know I mentioned it at some point but really God gave

36:10

Adam and Eve Noah these commands fill the earth be fruitful multiply and part of what

36:18

He's doing is He's saying hey you need to build up societies basically and the only way you build up societies is by having more people.

36:29

One of the things I would just maybe to help people is as you think about those commands to Adam and Noah they're not just commands to Adam and Noah that's the point because if you think about the nature of the commands themselves, the command is be fruitful and multiply to the only two human beings that exist at the time,

36:48

Adam and Eve be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. One of the things you instantaneously realize is that those two people can't fulfill that command.

37:01

They can't because it's not meant it's not meant for just them.

37:09

They can't fill the world up full of people and subdue the earth in the same way that God gave the great commission to the disciples that were alive at the time and not all of them even but everyone understands and knows that that command bring the gospel to all the world, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them to do all that Jesus began to do and teach.

37:33

This is a command that's beyond that group of individual and so just imagine it in this way if you imagine and God's given plenty of corporate commands to certain bodies like build the tabernacle and everything else but just imagine that we all had our little communion cups or whatever at our church and I as a pastor there gave a corporate command to everyone fill this up full of water, this swimming pool up full of water with your communion cups or whatever everyone would know that this is a command that's beyond me but then if everyone were to do it, it's beyond this moment it's going to take some time it's a command that extends beyond this but you keep on filling your drop in there it's going to take some time but in the same way the world's a big place it's a huge place and this wasn't just a command given to Adam and Eve it's a command given to the human race and it reflects and everything else is in there be fruitful multiply fill the earth have dominion over the animals that's part of God's design for humans that applies to all of them yeah imagine if your wife had gone to the store and instead of having 5 kids with her she had 1 billion children

38:53

I wonder what the guys reaction would have been poor woman you know seriously ok so why does

39:05

God command us to have kids it's to build up society, it's to make us like him, probably to sanctify us as well revealing all of our selfishness, our sinfulness so this is a command it was given to Adam, it was given to Noah but then we can't treat it like we can't unhitch ourselves from the

39:25

Old Testament we can unhitch ourselves from Anne Stanley yeah unhitch if you're listening to Anne Stanley don't do that anymore go read the

39:34

Old Testament go read the Old Testament but so in the beginning of the podcast one of the things

39:43

I brought up is most people they kind of view children as a curse more than a blessing but then we know

39:50

God promises children are actually blessings so it's pretty I mean it's pretty kind of mind blowing if you think about it

39:58

God gives us a command to be fruitful and to multiply so this is a command that we need to follow if we want to honor the

40:09

Lord but then the result of following the command is we get gifts directly like the natural sort of outcome of following the command means that you get gifts in children so it's kind of like I mean it's like a really merciful thing if you think about it he could have made it really hard and it certainly is but then he could have made it in a way where like children aren't gifts but he didn't he made them gifts for us so it's kind of it should be a point that causes us to say praise

40:55

God for doing this and for blessing us in this way but it doesn't seem like most people really recognize that children are gifts it seems like they more think of children as a curse so why don't you just tell us some of the ways in which children are actually a blessing because we know

41:21

God does say they are a blessing so in what ways are they? It's funny,

41:27

I mean God blessed them like the text says God blessed them and said be fruitful and multiply so you don't even have to get beyond that verse to realize that children are meant to be a blessing because the command itself is a blessing it's a blessing that's given but then you have verses like Psalm 127, 3 -5 the classic passage on that kind of topic

41:49

Behold, children are heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth

41:58

God blesses the man who fills his quiver with them he shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate so there's a wide variety of reasons why children can be a blessing and are a blessing in the

42:10

Bible I mean part of it is just as simple as it's not good for man to be alone so God's going to make a helper fit for him and we're living in such a selfish society right now that we really have no place for other centeredness at all but there really isn't a lot of joy to be found in just self -centered isolation as much as we're hell -bent on pursuing it with everything that we have that really isn't the path to happiness and that isn't really the path to joy and laughter

42:43

I mean you need community in order to experience those kind of things I mean you might be able to pursue entertainment raw by yourself but the good things in life are obviously going to be filled with community and with interactions with other people and laughter and I mean

43:04

I feel the kind of person who's just laughing by yourself all the time I mean most people would probably look at you as if you're a little bit weird but I mean you can just imagine yourself like when you find something funny or you think about something funny don't you have some kind of impulse or desire to share it with someone else or text someone else or let them know

43:29

God's made us to be that way He's made us to live in community I think obviously at a very fundamental level the good things in life, holidays, happiness joy, they're going to be found through family and life and community and all these kind of things and so there's reasons like that I mean in that passage it says

43:54

Behold children are a heritage from the Lord the fruit of the womb a reward like arrows in the hands of a warrior or the children of one's youth and when you think about that kind of metaphor if you're living in a society where there are enemies all around you you have children, children are like arrows in the hands of a warrior, you think about that in the literal sense of those words in order to keep your tribe strong you're going to have to have families that are producing kids and you're going to have to outbreed your enemies as far as that goes outbreed your enemies that's right that's part of the reason why as a society birth rates in societies plunge you're not even replacing the rate of kids that you have societies inevitably are going to collapse in one way or the other they're going to collapse because you don't have the manpower needed to run the utilities have the jobs that you have and everything else part of it is that but part of it is that you're going to be easily conquered and so there's a sense in which children are a blessing they're like arrows in the hands of a warrior they're essential to keeping a society alive but not only that we think about children in such an individualistic way now and we are very individualistic in the west so that we don't think in terms of generational wealth and those kind of concepts when you think about children part of what we should be thinking about if we were smart would be to be raising children who are going to join us in the task that God has given us to pursue and you can create a lot of wealth in that way too by thinking about how to teach your kids actual marketable skills that will actually benefit the world and having some sort of connection with your children you could build great things with a bunch of hands that could actually help you instead of just having a bunch of kids that you're producing who are just lazy entertainment addict kids who don't know how to do anything and you send them off to college and basically just excited to get them out of the house and barely ever see them again at that point if you raise kids in the way that God wants you to raise them you might have greater connection points there are blessings in those kind of ways like in terms of just society, financial blessings those kind of blessings that come from having kids but those are just like practical ones my goodness there's blessings in the process of even having a kid one of the things that my kids like to do the most of all the things that they can do this is what's a shame to a society like the kind of society that we live in right now that essentially doesn't see any value in kids at all but the thing is one of the things that my kids love doing the most is sitting with me or their mom and looking through old photos of them or old videos of them on the phone and kind of laughing at the things that they did that kind of thing they would rather do that than watch a movie even my older kids and that's like a shame that's like a profound why are we drawn that way why is that the thing that is so interesting for so many people it's because that's how memories are built that's what makes for a good life when you get old do you really want to be by yourself alone unable to do anything at the last church

47:54

I was at there was a guy that I got connected with he was an older guy recently he got

48:00

Alzheimer's went to be with the Lord I used to go over there he had kids that could help him do things he'd pay me a little bit to go over there and help him mow his yard

48:12

I'd mow his yard every week or every Saturday he was just so thankful to have someone to come and talk to him and help him

48:23

I was kind of sad I wish his kids were willing to do it that kind of thing if you have a family that's not just destroyed that's held together that loves each other there are blessings that come from that that want to be around each other there are obvious blessings that come from kids in that kind of way certainly you have a generation of people who maybe miss out on those things but those are the things

48:57

I remember growing up the good stuff I definitely resonate with that a lot

49:05

I think now that my wife and I have had a kid one of the things that always

49:14

I think about a lot is just the satisfaction that my wife and I get and just having this little person that is just like us even down to the biological level even their

49:33

DNA and every cell in their body is just like our

49:38

DNA and so it's like this really special kind of experience that you get to have and it's one that makes the memories that you have with this child it makes them so special there are so many times my wife and I have gone back and watched the videos that we've taken along the way so far we've looked at all the pictures that we've taken and we've just recalled different events that we got to all experience together and just the sincere amount of joy that comes from even just remembering those things even just getting to hear my child's voice is a gift to me my wife and I say all the time we wish that we could just bottle up our baby's voice because it's just so sweet to hear all the time you're never being more like God than when you're caring for someone who's fundamentally helpless laying down your life for someone who just they can't benefit you in the same way and so it used to be that you shared those memories through stories,

51:05

I can think of family reunions where you get together and you hear all the old stories that seem to grow over time get better with the retelling

51:17

I know those stories well but we're living in a time right now where we do have video cameras and we're living in a very blessed time where you can actually look at those things and they bring joy to you so there's just so many answers to that kind of question right, one more thing that I can think of that I wanted to bring up when we interviewed

51:43

C .R. Wiley I thought it was really interesting when he brought up this,

51:49

I guess it was I don't remember if it was a study that he had read or if it was in maybe like a magazine or an interview that he watched or something but there is something that he saw that was basically saying normally the people who are wealthier are the people who have more children which

52:12

I thought was really interesting I had never really thought about that before but then basically what he was saying is

52:20

Wiley's sort of hypothesis was essentially this idea that hey the more kids you have the more pressure you feel as a provider to be able to take care of all of them so you've got to keep finding ways to make enough money to feed your kids to clothe them, to give them the things that they need and so what ends up happening is a lot of times

52:45

God ends up blessing that by giving them even more than what they need whether they realize it or not they don't have the individuals they don't have to necessarily recognize that that's what is happening but then the fact is that God is actually blessing it seems like God is actually blessing those people and probably in part because they are at least fulfilling that command there's always blessings that come with faithfulness so part of it is just that pressure you feel to keep on looking things are tight and you need more but then it's the faithfulness of God you just devote yourself to the things

53:27

He calls you to do and He'll take care of you now consequently on the other end of the spectrum what do you think are some of the consequences that come from voluntarily refusing to have kids sure

53:43

I mean yeah if you want to pursue this self -centered life then selfishness is the kind of thing that really it might be fun in the short term but then it leaves you empty in the long term and ultimately you're not setting yourself up for a life that is it's going to be filled with very much joy or happiness so if you're hostile to God's commands if you're hostile to things that He actually calls you to do there are certainly going to be consequences in this life and the next that come from that so the kind of person who really is absolutely hostile to everything the

54:27

Bible says there's obviously going to be consequences into eternity for that kind of thing but the consequences to here and now you can pursue selfishness you're living in a world right now that basically just encourages selfishness at every single level be true to yourself follow your heart be who you are and that kind of stuff but the problem is the more we pursue selfishness in that kind of way the emptier we actually feel

55:00

I think it's one of those things where I was one time once I was watching an interview of some stupid actress who was essentially trying to she had never given birth in her life and she was trying to figure out how to make the appropriate noises in childbearing you know based on an experience she's never had

55:23

I mean I can't tell you I just felt pity for her that she was an individual that had lived this life that everyone thinks is supposed to be so wonderful and great and she still hadn't experienced the basic joy and happiness and blessings that come from living a life that God commands us to live in those ways so you know you can pursue selfishness with all you have it's going to leave you empty you're going to feel worthless and that's why you can have everything the world has to offer but if you pursue the things

55:55

God calls you to pursue there are blessings that come from that not only do you have his pleasure but then you also it's better his plans are better than our plans so just ask anyone who has a kid who has a biblical attitude about their kid and they're going to tell you that they wouldn't erase that kid for anything one of the things that I thought bringing up the

56:24

Wiley interview again that we did one of the things that I thought was really interesting and I agreed wholeheartedly with this

56:32

I've thought about this before this idea that probably in the coming decades churches are really going to have to think through how do we minister to an older generation who is just alone basically they haven't had children because they either decided to have children really late in life or they just didn't at all and so now they're all by themselves they have no one to take care of them in their old age they can't provide for themselves anymore so C .R.

57:15

Wiley was basically saying hey churches are going to have to think through this because this is going to be the reality we're going to have a whole generation of elderly people with no one to take care of them essentially which is really kind of scary if you think about it all of these people who think that they're making a really smart decision for themselves they're saving the environment they're able to pursue all of their passions and pleasures they're able to pursue the career that they've always wanted or now they're able to travel because they don't have children or whatever it is so they think they're making a really smart decision but then the reality is they're making an awful decision when it comes to the long term like you were saying so it's pretty concerning but then

58:04

I think if churches are having any sort of forethought as it comes to surveying the current landscape of our society probably one of the things that we really do need to start thinking about even now and trying to equip ourselves for as local churches is how do we minister to these people because they're going to be there it's an inevitability at this point

58:28

I think at least in America I'd say that's true but let me say something a little bit controversial in that I don't know that we're going to be able to do it meaning

58:41

I don't know that we should accept upon ourselves that responsibility to provide older people who refuse to have kids the same level of joy and family and I think that there are some things that we're just not going to be able to do no matter how hard we try there's a certain sense in which it's just like you reap what you sow and I'm not trying to say that in a harsh way

59:11

I'm just trying to say that like there are burdens that you can't bear if that makes sense and so I think there are going to be elderly people in your congregation that have a lot of needs but I mean like I don't know that the church is going to be just you know like I don't know that we're going to be able to take care of every single need that there is to take care of and like there's going to be consequences from those kind of decisions that I don't think the church can shelter them from does that make sense?

59:48

Yeah, yeah like we can't we're not going to be able to take care of of of we're not going to be able to fully respond to Right, right

59:59

I mean like I have five kids I wouldn't expect each one of my five kids to be you know my life buddy who lives with me you know they're going to have their own kids they're going to have their own life and they're going to have that kind of thing but then like the more kids you have the more that you can get some kind of companionship from your kids you know on a rotation and on a schedule and that kind of thing but then like all

01:00:30

I'm trying to say is if you have no one and you have all these needs and it's just like yes we're going to be a family of God and yes we need to bear one another's burdens but then there are the kinds of burdens that a person can take upon themselves that are beyond you know people and what

01:00:55

I mean is just to say that like there are there are so many blessings that come from family that I don't know that we're going to be able to just fulfill all of those things in that way so I think we need to be strategic but I don't think that we should pretend that we can replace that in its entirety fully

01:01:24

I don't think so yeah no that's a good that's a good qualification to make

01:01:30

I think certainly yeah we won't be able to we can serve in some way and hopefully that can be something that leads many of these people to know

01:01:44

Christ to see the generosity of his children and the love that they have but then yeah obviously you can't

01:01:55

I mean I guess maybe this isn't really like a one to one comparison but then maybe it's at least in a similar vein where you know like if you have the divorced the divorced parents and you have a stepdad come in he can certainly serve you know that role of father but then he's never going to be the biological father right he's never going to have that same connection so so he can sort of mitigate the fact that the father might not be there but then he won't ever actually be you know the one who gave his

01:02:34

DNA to the child so what you want to do is you want to think about like you know so like the younger widows in the bible are encouraged to remarry right so if you think about that like the younger widows are encouraged to remarry because like the church shouldn't take on like a responsibility to provide financially provide everything that a woman needs like if you did that like you're gonna run out of money okay yeah yeah alright so but then the thing is like if you encourage younger women to remarry you know you don't enroll like younger women on the widows list as far as those things are concerned like you encourage them to remarry you encourage them to take on like responsibility in order to take care of the things that are needed and a new husband could really help with that kind of thing and so like there are steps to that and so I mean

01:03:25

I think you know partly as a church what we should be doing is warning people like like and not just say hey you know we're here for you when you realize how desolate it all is

01:03:35

I think we should be warning okay you're you're robbing yourself of future blessings and you know and the kind of person though who really is just living that life of self fulfillment for years and years and years and years like in that kind of way

01:03:48

I mean they don't typically have a lot of connections period because they're not living the kind of other centered life that's going to you know make these meaningful close relationships and pretty you know most people are going to get married and move on and then you're just going to be alone by yourself you know your time has passed you by and so I mean at a certain point yeah

01:04:09

I mean I think you can go out of your way at that point to you know the 50 year old person who never married and came to the end of himself and has decided to you know convert like you can be a family to them that's real that may be better than their biological family but then you know it's not like you're not going to be able to replace everything you know so there will be consequences to those things so like you're not going to be able to do it all you know so like with those kind of things like there's there are certain

01:04:41

I think the church can be a better family than our biological family at times and you know we so that's true but like there are certainly consequences of living that self centered life and some of those will show up in your older years unless you just remarkably repent and you know start throwing yourself into being other centered you might not

01:05:07

I wouldn't just like a person needs to radically change who they are you get what

01:05:15

I'm saying they can't just be the same self centered person just say okay well what are your programs for old singles for old you know unmarried you know as a needy consumer who like basically is looking at you to fulfill all this emotional void that is there because of like a life that was worthless it's just like no

01:05:36

I mean you have to actually be other centered at some point in your life right? and learn that it's better to give than receive and you might find blessing there but you're not going to find it just by being this is needy person who just is trying to leech off of the church all these things that you rejected your whole life if that makes sense yeah so talking about you know the people who are basically you know voluntarily refusing to have children they're either delaying it or they're just telling themselves hey

01:06:08

I'm never going to have children for whatever reason reason you know

01:06:14

I guess I'll go ahead and ask you this title question then so those people that are refusing to have kids are they being selfish jerks or maybe an even better maybe an even better way to ask it is you know

01:06:32

I was that person at one point in my life who was basically saying you know I'm going to put off having kids

01:06:38

I don't know when we'll do it but you know certainly not in the first few years of marriage so Tim I would like to ask you as me being the person who is leading my wife into that kind of decision was

01:06:54

I basically being a selfish jerk that's essentially what I told you it is it cost you to have kids pull back the curtain a little bit did you not get the memo yeah so to clarify for you guys

01:07:14

I was the person who was thinking this way who was refusing to have children and Tim and the other pastor of our church

01:07:23

Marcus they basically both came to me because I'm the person at our church who is basically you know training to be an elder one day so they eventually came to me and were basically like alright

01:07:39

Harrison we've got to talk about this what's the plan you know when are you going to have kids and then we got into I was basically like well we're waiting we just want to make sure we're ready you know whatever but then the reality was

01:07:59

I just didn't I don't really think that I thought children were a blessing and so Tim and Marcus they came to me and were basically like hey quit being a selfish jerk and have some kids so the answer is yes you're being a selfish jerk yeah

01:08:18

I think definitely the answer to that I think generally one of the things that's happened is that post birth control now there's this normalized expectation that you'll delay having kids like almost indefinitely and I mean really it's kind of strange

01:08:35

I mean you have like you know we have such a stunted understanding of what marriage actually is today that I mean you can like we don't even know the basics of what we're doing in marriage so part of that's the problem and so we don't even know what marriage is about we don't understand the roles that we're taking on what marriage is actually designed to do

01:08:59

I mean but for most of human history marriage was viewed as a procreative union essentially not only was it a procreative union but it was a union that fundamentally the first act of marriage the consummation of marriage was an act that was intended to procreate so this is the standard understanding of what marriage has been throughout the entire history of the world prior to birth control is that you go and you get married and the first thing you do is you go in the tent and make a baby that's what you do okay but then we don't think about it that kind of way at all you know so you don't have like that's not even on the radar for the vast majority of people so you know yes they're being selfish jerks but then they're just bone ignorant you were bone ignorant about what you were doing you know like in marriage like what you were actually you know intending to do right the way

01:10:06

God has designed marriage to be is that a man is called by God to be a protector and a provider of his wife and he should go into marriage thinking to himself that he has a responsibility to provide for one plus another should you know

01:10:24

God bless his endeavors and so that's been the standard understanding of marriage throughout history and now it's only you know post birth control pill that we even like think that like that it's become normalized to not just get married and have kids and so that's a like massive shift in the way we even understand what we're doing now that most people throughout the history of the world wouldn't even recognize you know so what happens though is that most people like you're living in a society right now that's hostile to marriage and you're living in a society that's hostile to kids and then so you know and I threw you under the bus but I mean

01:11:05

I did the same kind of thing you know going into marriage like I had a plan you know I'm in seminary

01:11:10

I want to finish seminary and then we'll talk about having kids I didn't want to postpone it that much but then one of the things that I just felt profoundly unsettled about early on in our marriage is why are we putting this off it seems like we're doing violence to God's design in a pretty fundamental level and that quickly led to an audible at that point but I mean like you're living in a world that's hostile to you know marriage and it's hostile to kids and then often what happens in the church is that you know the guys still want to have sex okay so the guys don't and then the girls still want the relationship but then what happens is the church kind of persuades them hey marriage is a good thing quit sleeping around outside of marriage okay well let's get married then and make this like legit you know let's do it on the up and up but then you know like they didn't get the they didn't really understand what marriage was and what they're doing and what

01:12:10

God's purpose for marriage is and so then essentially marriage is just this opposite sex you know bestie with benefits and that's about it that's it you're just a person you do life together with and you know all that and I guess just that's just unrecognizable biblically yeah yeah and I think you know there might be some people listening who are probably a little bit revolted at the thought of both of my pastors coming to me and basically you know telling me hey quit being a selfish jerk you know they didn't say

01:12:50

I was a selfish jerk they didn't say that but he has a poor memory no matter what

01:12:56

Tim tells you they didn't say that but I mean you know they were essentially confronting me about this and maybe for some people they might hear that and kind of be like whoa that's a little weird you know why are your pastors telling you those kinds of things but then the reality is that was probably one of the greatest

01:13:20

I look back on that conversation with both of you guys if I'm just being you know totally honest here

01:13:26

I look back on that conversation probably as one of the things that I'm most thankful for in my whole life you know outside of those who shared the gospel with me and you know meeting my wife that's probably one of the one of the single nights that I am most thankful for in my whole life because what it did was you know through the mercy of God and the gift of you know church discipline it gave and the faithfulness of my pastors and their boldness to be willing to tell me these things and not really be worried about what

01:14:05

I think but be more concerned with the truth what it led to was you know a ton of blessing in my family and I think not even just in my family

01:14:14

I think just in our church in general. I mean you confronted a few people and then everyone got baby fever you know and there's so many kids now that have come from that one act of throwing you under the bus you know.

01:14:26

Yeah so all that to say I really do look back on that conversation as probably one of the most loving things that anyone has ever done for me if I'm being honest and that's not me trying to play it up or whatever

01:14:39

I'm just that's legitimately how I think about it. I've been I've always been so thankful that both of you guys that y 'all were that y 'all loved me enough to just tell me that even if you thought

01:14:51

I wasn't going to want to hear it so so I've been really thankful for that and like I said it's led to a great great blessing and getting to have a child you know and and really expanding our family and all of the many gifts that have led to that not just in my family but in our church in general so thank you guys for doing that I have a lot of more sort of application based questions here

01:15:24

Tim so do you want to keep going or do you want to try and make these some some midweek things that we can sort of point people to in terms of how do we how do we address certain specific scenarios when it comes to not having kids and and having kids.

01:15:46

How do you want to play that? Sure yeah why don't you just maybe ask a few more and we'll be called a call quiz.

01:15:52

Okay well the let's see so I guess maybe the first place to start would just be for the person who's listening and they're saying you know what

01:16:03

I actually do need to I'm the person who's been putting this off or maybe

01:16:08

I'm the unmarried person who really desires marriage but then doesn't really desire having children but then listening to us they've sort of been won over now or maybe there's someone out there listening who is who is married maybe they have you know one kid or they're about to have their first kid or something and they're starting to think to themselves alright how do

01:16:32

I figure out how many to have that's certainly a question that I've gotten asked a lot is how many children are you planning on having when are you guys going to stop so what are your thoughts when it comes to actually trying to figure out how many children to have so not just do we have children or do we not but how many do we have what are some some things that couples need to think through in order to answer that question

01:17:06

I don't think any you know single person like is going to be able to answer that question for sure like how many kids should

01:17:19

I have projected out into the future and I would say that like young married people are not the best gauge of answering that question too so one of the worst things you can possibly do is sanctify some kind of subjective arbitrary number that you come up with it's actually two and a half it's two and a half you know that might get you in jail but no yeah

01:17:46

I think the worst thing you can do is try to sanctify some sort of number the truth is

01:17:54

I mean when we were encouraging you to get to it and start having kids there are very real financial concerns that people have when my wife and I had our first kid it wasn't as if I had some sort of wonderful plan in order to take care of not only a wife and a kid

01:18:12

I mean I had a pretty dumb plan financially so I mean it really was it was a stupid plan to go to seminary and get married we made maybe $5 ,000 a first year of marriage

01:18:26

I mean it was just ridiculous and irresponsible in a lot of ways so I think what people need to do is they need to basically as they're approaching a question along those lines they really do need to think to themselves

01:18:41

I know I'm ready to get married when I'm ready to move out of my parents house okay so if you want to know when you're ready to be married you need to Jesus goes and prepares a place for us so that we might be with him

01:19:00

Guy you know you're ready to be married when you're ready to financially support not only yourself but also a wife and a kid that's when you know you're financially ready to be married so what we need to be encouraging people to do is get themselves ready to get be ready to be a provider at the beginning and a lot of what's happening is you have the double income no kid kind of phenomenon so you have men who are not ready to provide and then they're trying to share this provision role with a wife and then essentially what happens is they're both sharing this role and then they're sharing all the domestic duties to and basically just undermining

01:19:39

God's design for the family at a pretty fundamental level and then but then they're strapped financially because neither one of them makes a whole lot of money they're not ready to take on a family they're not thinking about taking on a family at that point and so then it's just like well basically they're aching by with no ambition to change their scenario for years and years and years until they get ready to one day take the plunge but the problem is there is a sense in which you do have to step out on faith at times like if you've dug yourself in a hole and you're in a bad situation it might be times where you just say hey

01:20:12

God's going to have to take care of it because if I'm just looking at the numbers then I'm never going to have a kid so there are bad decisions you can make along those lines to put yourself in a scenario where you just it may feel financially unwise to have a kid just because you didn't prepare well but what

01:20:32

I would say though is just that trying to answer that question how many kids should we actually have if you start off in the right way then what generally happens is

01:20:43

God will constantly just give you more money but I mean every step along the way it's just like I can look back at my life and it's just like we barely had enough to have one we didn't have enough to have one we had one in faith trusting in Him to feed us and clothe us and it's been amazing you have another one keeps on giving you more money have another one keeps on giving you more money, have another one so if you're just looking at the math sometimes it's just you do have to step out in faith a little bit and see

01:21:20

I don't know that there's any simple answers to those kind of questions I think you're not going to accurately be able to predict the whole scope of your life and trying to come up with some arbitrary number at the very beginning of your marriage when you're making the least money that you'll probably ever make and project that out in the future

01:21:41

I think that's pretty unwise for most people just walk by faith, take a step at a time and that's kind of how we that's the way that we approach children as far as that's concerned, we just kept on going and part of the reason why we just kept on going was because birth control was just a mess, there's concerns with many forms of birth control that they're abortifacient a lot of times they make your wife crazy make her crazy and extra hormonal so there's those kind of things the longer people are on birth control it destroys their ability to have kids even so a lot of people who go into marriage unable to have kids they either took the

01:22:29

COVID vaccine or I shouldn't laugh, I'm not laughing about that situation,

01:22:36

I'm just yeah or they've been on birth control for many years and it's kind of destroyed their ability to have kids too and so ladies who never touch birth control they typically are more fertile than those who do and that's just a consequence of those kind of things but I think for us there's just realities of trying to prevent this feels strange for one and then for two, the ways that they're not very good despite all the advertising they're not very good and they have all these problems and so we just kept on going and I think everyone has to figure out how you're going to respond to those kind of things but I mean

01:23:26

I think you just trust the Lord by faith and I think there's been times in our life where we have another one and it's just like hey we're treading water we have another one, we're really treading water

01:23:39

God we have another one and it's like we can barely breathe at this point to where at some point somewhere along the line

01:23:47

I think there's some calculation that unless you adopt kind of a quiverful posture that individuals might make along those lines where it's just like hey we just, our life situation isn't changing, we keep on digging a hole we keep on digging a hole but I wouldn't do it the first time in a struggle

01:24:02

I'd wait till have a few extra have a few more than, have at least two or three more than what you think you can have and see what happens you know what

01:24:11

I mean? But I think if you're tapping out at like one

01:24:18

That's some weak stuff right there, huh? That's weak sauce right there Do you think some people are called to childlessness?

01:24:27

I think the people who are called to childlessness are the people who are unable to have kids

01:24:35

Unable to have kids because like what, they're infertile or something? Yeah I think those are the people who are called to it but you know

01:24:44

I think one of the things that you the reason why the thing is it's just like because of the advent of birth control we've separated reproduction from the sex act in a pretty fundamental way in a way that is somewhat it's ahistorical and it's kind of irrational so you have a body that's designed to do a certain thing and certainly you know sex brings pleasure so you're intended for pleasure sure, but then you're also intended to procreate and so like that's you know if you're the kind of couple

01:25:26

I mean if you're the kind of individual who's called to singleness like in order to advance God's kingdom and do it but to bring some woman into that in order that you may just get your sexual desires met with none of the responsibility that comes from that is pretty selfish and the bible says the barren womb is never satisfied and it's typically like ladies are not as happy with that arrangement as a guy is a guy is going to be perfect a guy could be in his selfishness tempted to be perfectly happy with that kind of thing

01:25:58

I'm not saying that that's always the case like this is just talking in generalizations there but typically you know the pressure at some point the lady is going to get the baby itch for the most part you know unless there's some kind of like baggage or something along those lines or some kind of traumatic events in the past or just a straight up posture of feminism or something like that but typically you know if you're not ready to have kids you're not ready to get married and why do that why do that why get married and just like it doesn't make sense based on what

01:26:36

God's purpose for marriage actually is do you think the people who find out along the way that they're infertile are they so you're saying they're called to childlessness do you think there's any sense in which they probably need to think to themselves hey we need to start talking about how do we adopt like is that something that they should take on for themselves as I guess like a sort of replacement in a way to just actually having biological children do they need to have something in them that says alright well we can't have our own children but we know there's certainly many many children out there who have no parents at all we need to make it our responsibility then to say let's go out and let's you know let's adopt some of them yes

01:27:34

I think that that's like a good thing that couples could think about and God obviously adopts us into our family and you know caring for widows and orphans in their distress is pure and undefiled religion

01:27:47

I would say it's you know it's not always as easy as all that you know in terms of like there are significant barriers to adoption that are there

01:27:59

I mean it's not as if you can just you know see an orphan on the side of the road and be like hey you know orphan do you want parents you know like you can do you want some parents well we're happy to be your parents you know

01:28:11

I mean it's not that kind of situation to where you can do that kind of thing without you know getting thrown in jail for kidnapping

01:28:18

I mean literal there's a lot of money like that adopting cost a ridiculous amount of money to do

01:28:28

I mean there are ways to do it you know but I'm not so I think certainly a couple that's one valid thing that they should consider that should be on the table

01:28:42

I wouldn't want to say that a couple who just looks at their situation and says hey like okay well we're just going to faithfully throw ourself into serving the

01:28:51

Lord the best we can you know with our times and abilities that God has given us and I don't know that like that's a fundamental and active unfaithfulness there you know so if God sovereignly

01:29:04

I mean there's plenty of like situations in the Bible where God sovereignly prevents individuals from having kids and it's not as if like the only faithful option at that point was to adopt so I wouldn't want to say that's the only faithful but that is certainly a faithful option

01:29:21

I guess the last question that we'll end on is you know the answer to the title question was yes if you're voluntarily choosing to not have children then you are being a selfish jerk so what would you say to the person who's being a selfish jerk who's refusing to have children even though they are capable of it you know they're married they're not having to deal with any sort of infertility issues or anything like that they just don't want to have any kids what would you you know what would you say that person needs to do so what does that person need to do if they're the selfish one that doesn't want to have any kids yeah

01:30:10

I mean I would say they need to repent repent you know the simple answer to that is yeah repent

01:30:19

I mean I think they God obviously has designs for humanity and you're standing in opposition to those designs and you know

01:30:28

I think you can do that kind of thing and you can justify it in your own mind but you know

01:30:34

I think the more that you read the bible the more that you pray the more that you look at the subject from scripture it's just I mean it's impossible to make a case that what you're doing is remotely okay from the bible so like there is no good case to be made from that and the more that you you know throw yourself into the scriptures and throw yourself into a community of believers

01:30:56

I mean typically the kind of people who like the problem is that like most churches like are like most faithful churches are encouraging couples to have children like that's just the way it works and so like and the more that people like often you don't even have to encourage them to do it they just do you know they start having kids and once individuals start having kids everyone else will keep on having kids and so like the way the only way that this kind of thing works in the long term is if you're in a church that's genuinely hostile to kids really if you want to be a

01:31:36

Christian and part of a church that's going to be accepting of you in your barren state that you've voluntarily chosen for yourself like you're going to have to be in a church that really is like pretty messed up as far as those things are concerned across the board in general you know

01:31:53

I mean I don't know that like a lot of churches are talking about these things the way they should but I'm just trying to say that the momentum like people will have kids you know so you really do have to be in a situation where you're kind of a church that's hostile to these things for the most part and like so like that didn't say anything good about you you know to be that kind of person who's just like it's not going to be good for your soul and the more that you fight like the more that you fight these things the more that like there are consequences to doing so I mean

01:32:26

I you know I think a lot of people don't realize they think you know guys think that you know like it's just like hey you know if I get married

01:32:37

I can just have sex whenever I want right and then you get married and it's like but I don't want the kids and so the kids are going to stand in the way of the sex that I want kind of thing but the problem is like your wife gets on the birth control pill it's going to ruin her libido like it's going to mess her up you know and like and then you know they're it's going to make her crazy and so you know some of the pills do worse than others but I'm just trying to say that like there are side effects to these kind of things and you're going to experience the side effects of these things and like you know

01:33:08

I think in my life and our marriage as we tried to fight at the times we tried to fight this like there are consequences to that and there's nothing more right in the universe than just to do what

01:33:19

God's designed you to do and let marriage be what it's designed to be and to quit thinking about it you know like there's all this stress that comes from an individual who's trying to fight

01:33:29

God's plan and I mean you know if you want to make intimacy with your partner miserable you know put on it this kind of pressure that I can't get pregnant at all cost you know kind of pressure and it's just like you're making you know you're just making marriage miserable you're robbing yourself of joy and not only that you're dishonoring the

01:33:47

Lord and you're dishonoring his plans for you and so yeah I mean grow up just grow up and you know be an adult and trust the

01:33:55

Lord. Sure. Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to say before we close?

01:34:01

No I think that's good man. Okay. Alright well yeah hopefully this has been an encouraging episode for you guys like I said for me this was a you know

01:34:11

I mean literally like a life changing thing when I you know repented myself of this of the selfishness that I was pursuing of the selfishness

01:34:21

I was encouraging my wife to pursue and now that we've turned away from that we've just experienced so much blessing even you know our parents have experienced so much blessing our church has experienced so much blessing it really is a wonder why we ever thought the way we did you know that we needed to avoid children it is kind of curious to me why did

01:34:49

I ever think that how did I ever convince myself that that was a good idea now that I've experienced having one for myself and so hopefully that's encouraging for you guys hopefully that's convicting for a lot of you guys and so we want to thank you guys for listening for supporting us week in and week out and we look forward to having you guys on the next one and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at biblebashedpodcast at gmail .com