Wimpy, Weak and Woke: John Cooper Joins us to Talk About His New Book


Spent a little over an hour with John Cooper today talking about his new book, Wimpy, Weak and Woke (available at johnlcooper.com though the Kindle is already available at Amazon). Talked eschatology and law and culture and the future and hope and what we need to be praying for as far as mercy from God! As always a pleasure to have John on the Dividing Line!


Well greens everybody welcome to the dividing line, my name is James white we're back in the big studio We haven't been in here for so long.
The rich has no idea how anything works anymore. So He he's is his blood pressure is is peaking right now
He would not be able to buy any life insurance right now From anybody if they if they did that life insurance test thing they do so we're just gonna hope everything goes together
We as everybody no one cares about me being here, but we are joined today by a world famous author commentator cultural critic
And he does some music on the side and and soon soon I hope and I believe to be wearing at minimally some really nice cardigan sweaters and eventually with time
I think I can get him up to the Coogee level. It's gonna take some work It really really will but we are joined today by my dear friend.
John Cooper Some of you may have You know Heard some songs he's written or something like that.
I don't know but obviously the big thing these days John is You've you've decided to become a big -time author
And I just want to point something out to there's a couple things as we get started first of all First of all,
I don't I know I'm too small on the screen to see this but this I have an age test for you
Ready? I'm ready, bud. Okay. All right. There's an age test. I am wearing a t -shirt that says specifically first annual
WKRP turkey drop 1978 Do you have any idea what the t -shirt is about?
The only thing that crosses my mind is a WKRP in Cincinnati Okay, you're halfway there you're halfway there but what is their absolutely most famous skit ever was the
Thanksgiving turkey drop If you haven't seen it, let's see.
This is this is amazing. I mentioned this to summer and to Eric At Jenny's birthday party this past weekend and They were clueless they had never even heard of it and at least, you know the theme song to WKRP But you've not seen the turkey drop
Well, I'm a little bit older than summer I'm yeah, I'm just not ancient like you
Sorry, I don't I don't quite remember Okay, rich just took offense to that because he's older than I am so but But okay when we're done here you're gonna you're gonna go watch
You're gonna go put turkey. All you got to do is put turkey drop into YouTube.
It'll be the first thing it comes up Time I talked to you you just do nothing but give me homework
Yesterday you told me I had to go study the diet of The diet of something which
I would aspire and You know, I told you I knew all about the p90x diet
I'm tired of the homework, man. I'm tired. Okay. All right, but here's the next but here's the next thing
When when you and I first hooked up in 2020 You hadn't written any books
You're you're every when we talked about anything it was I'm just I'm just a rocker and now
We we hook up and two and a half years later. You're on your second book.
How many footnotes in this beast? It's a lot 648 648 footnote book and You're hanging with people like Joe boot and me and and all sorts of theological
Weirdos like us Do you does does Corey blame me for a lot of this or or just where do
I what what what's actually going on? Yeah You know what? I think it happened. I think it probably was because About what two months ago,
I think or was that just one month ago. We got to come to your 40 40 -year celebration for a
AOM and I got to sit in your office And and I was sitting in the office and I don't want to be too mystical
But I felt a spirit come upon me and I can only I can only say I think it's the spirit of the
Coogee The Coogee came upon me I felt it and and now
I think I'm almost ready to wear ugly sweaters and Look okay, they are not ugly sweaters.
They are wearable art. Okay And that was the third thing I was going to say
I was would you stop it? We're supposed to be professionals here.
Come on Yeah, we didn't start it rich couldn't even get the logo to work that when you can't get your own logo working
You're pretty much out of the professional range. But the third thing I was going to do is I did want to sincerely
Thank you and Corey for coming here. In fact, it was right through the right through the wall right over.
There is where we were Coming to our 40th anniversary celebration.
That was a huge surprise Josh and summer arranged that Josh went and grabbed you guys and I was totally and completely shocked and surprised and amazed and it was really really wonderful of you to do that I'm not sure who then dragged you into having to talk
Someday you're gonna get to come to Apologia Church and do nothing. No talking. No singing no performing
Just sit there and be blessed. That'll be that'll be a whole lot of fun someday, but I'm not sure but I just wanted to thank thank you.
Thank you and Corey for making that effort because I know your guys's schedule is absolutely insane and That was just another another trip through TSA You know, and you know, you guys don't fly all that much you do a lot of driving
So do you have all the neat cool TSA stuff or or do you have to just love it through with all the rest of us?
And well, let's see. No, we we don't let's say we typically drive but we do fly still a lot
I mean probably 20 or 30 times a year and we do have a lot of things worked out So it's just it's just part of the gig if you're gonna be in a band
You kind of got to get you got a flot planes trains and automobiles We've done all of those things But it was uh, we had a great time coming.
I was really thrilled when when summer and Josh hit me and said hey Do you think you guys can make it and I honestly was like everything's booked.
I'm not sure We're going to see what the schedule is. I couldn't believe it actually worked out and we were on a fly date
We had flown to California and played at a metal festival and With a with a bunch of bands like tool and lip biscuit and I told
Cory I said I bet we're the only We're the only artists ever that went from a playing with tool to going to a
J. Dr James White thing, but it was really fun. It was a an honor to be there. And so as you know
I'm just blessed with your friendship and blessed with the mentoring that you've done for me taking my phone calls
Sent me good stuff to study better better things than WK RP's turkey roast or whatever you're talking about now, but Turkey drop turkey drop appreciate it.
Look it's gonna become your favorite thing from 1978 when you see it. So That means it's got to be better than Battlestar Galactica, which was loosely based on Mormonism Oh, no, it wasn't loosely based on Mormonism.
Let me tell you something, buddy I think I've told you this but every writer was a returned
Mormon missionary and I actually fired up a couple of the first episodes recently while I was writing indoors and I was stunned at How Mormon it was?
I mean the language the terminology it was Astonishing, but yeah Look Battlestar Galactica wasn't meant to be funny.
I mean Starbuck tried to be funny, but really normally wasn't all that funny But yeah, you look as soon as we're done
Ask Cory if she knows it first of all All right I will and then look it up and you're gonna love it and you're gonna go man
I don't know how I missed that see James has shown me something else to look at in life. But Anyways, all that stuff aside by the way
The diet of spire if you know that the diet of spire is where the term Protestant came from and that it wasn't that we were protesting
Roman Catholicism It was that the minority was protesting the majority's removal of their religious liberty rights
Then you know a whole lot more than pretty much everybody back on October 31st
Who was posting the stuff with Martin Luther banging something on the the Wittenberg door, which really didn't happen either
So see I'm doing everything I can to make sure that when you get to book like number 20 you're gonna have to like dedicate one of them to me or something because I Pointed you in the right direction
All right, it's a deal speaking of books okay, so I don't remember it was
I don't remember exactly when it was that You started sending me various versions of A particular chapter.
I think it was sort of the heart of the book the main the main chapter Because I remember you were making changes in like a red or pink colored font type thing
And we went through a lot of changes because Unlike the first book which was more
I Would sort of call it more of an evangelistic book You know something you want to give unbelievers
You know sort of general worldview topics leading to a gospel presentation type of a situation that's not what you're doing here, and you had to make a lot of decisions and You'll remember my you know my repetitive statement was well who exactly
Do you want to communicate to who who exactly are you going for here? That's that's going to determine whether you do some of the things you're wanting to do or are concerned about doing or worried
It might distract. I mean there's all sorts of stuff going on and it all comes back to who's your audience, so did you sort of scratch an itch with the first book and Then all the
Cooper stuff Webcasts you've been doing dealing with stuff internally to the church
Created the next itch Which is man, there's some really bad stuff coming into the church.
I need to address this is that sort of how you'd see it going on Yeah, I think that's probably definitely in the mix for sure and you are right the first book was was more of a basic kind of worldview
Situation I do think it was good for people who don't know Christ Also found that it was good for a lot of people who have been in church
Maybe even for years, but never really fully understood What the basics of the faith, you know really is and there's a lot of those kind of people
And I can relate to that certain things going on. How could I have missed that this whole time?
I've been in church and But since then as the problems in the world are getting crazier and as I'm seeing
You know as I began my relationship with you and you were Sending me. Hey, have you heard of these people or these people and I started getting online
Finding out the players finding out who's saying what? there's shocking things that evangelical leaders are saying some of our big evil leaders or Institutional regime church people are so shocking that that I just had this naivety, you know this naivety that was just dying and I just felt like Somebody needs to say this in a way that that the ordinary people can understand ordinary moms and dads
That don't have time to sit around You know Reading every book ever, but they're just going how is this happening at my church?
why is my why is my church starting to say a B or C or why is my kid coming home with a
Material telling my kids that that they could be boys or girls or neither or both or it could change every day
Their gender could be fluid. Why are these things happening? Why are there drag queens showing up at the public library with little kids and all of these questions and now most recently why is
Why are our college kids in America cheering on right Hamas as Hamas is as?
Brutally doing some of the most just demonic things I've ever seen on video, okay raping people
Butchering babies putting babies in and ovens and cooking them Why are people in America cheering that on and I'm sure you've seen the same statistics as me as he is
Americans age 18 to 24 51 % of them support what
Hamas did they say it was justified Why is that happening and I thought all of these things are under a rubric to me of utopianism and It's seeped into the church
And one of the things you'll be interested in that I don't know if I've said on any podcast because most people won't really care
But as I kept digging into it, I began discovering some of it is seeped into the church certainly not a surprise under Progressive Christianity or just liberal
Christianity But other times it seeped into the church and some of our reformed friends
Because of what I call in the book a a faux post -millennial ism it's it's a post -millennial view of the kingdom going into the world and Making the wrong things right bringing kingdom justice, but their ideas of kingdom justice are not biblically based
They're really no different than secular humanism But they they've misunderstood what the gospel of the kingdom is as I started understanding that I said, oh
This is in our own camp. This is the post -millennial reform people in some cases
Really preaching some of this really evil stuff And so I just felt like maybe I could lay it out in a way that the ordinary lay person could understand
Well, I'll be honest a couple things I don't know if you've seen this because this only
I only started seeing this last night Briefly, and I saw a little bit more this morning this tik -tok videos of people reading
Osama bin Laden's letter to America and All and all these people going wow
We were wrong to have gone after Osama bin Laden and just stuff like this where you're you're realizing
That the the young generation has been Sold a bill of goods
They've been given a worldview. That's utterly untenable. It can't last it can't it can't lead to human flourishing but they've embraced it via Emotionalism and it's frightening
It truly truly is frightening because you know They will they will be the ones determining who's in office if they're not already within a very short period of time and that that's gonna change everything but the other thing is, you know, you mentioned
I I Remember more than once in our conversations over the past couple of years
That you would ask a question like but but how can fill in the blank famous?
reformed person say such and such a thing and There was a part of me that was that was almost hesitant to have to To have to fill you in basically and say well
Yeah, you may have been really blessed by this person in this area or that area but here's how this works and I had to explain to you going to fuller
Theological Seminary and being their token fundamentalist and having to deal with the progressive perspective in my seminary education and Figuring out years and years later
Yeah That was purposeful the Lord had it had an intention in that that's become very important in my apologetic ministry to be able to understand where these folks are coming from but the same time it's
You're not the first person that I've had to say. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of views out there that You sort of wonder exactly how someone did did buy into it and it's it's hard to keep the balance of being able to go
Yeah, but I was I was blessed by them over in this area Yeah, and you still can be the Lord can use them in that way
But you have to be discerning you have to recognize when there's other other stuff coming into play and so That was definitely a thought in the back of my mind
Even on that first long phone call that we had remember I was driving down from Flagstaff We first talked that big long one there and and it's just sort of like Yeah Sadly you have to learn to Be blessed by the things that are blessable
And and then take the rest of it and go yeah, not so much on that one We need to you know
Try to bring some correction there bring some light to this area things like that And that's really that's really tough because that's not something you do based on emotions.
That's something you do based upon a commitment to objective truth and That's not a popular position to be holding today.
It's certainly not a popular position in your industry So, let's talk for a minute about the fact that Well, what have
I said to you over and over again as you were writing the book It's like my line whenever you'd share something with me.
My line would be well your manager's gonna love this one. I Mean yeah, that's right.
You know, I said it more than once it's like, you know Does is this person on blood pressure meds just you know?
Are they reading this too because you're having to say things that put you outside of the comfort zone of Your industry.
I mean, let's just be honest. You really you really really are and so far You're such a big juggernaut that you're you're surviving it you do such a good job in Presenting it that I think a lot of people are a little hesitant to take you on directly
But there are lots of people on the sidelines that are lobbying your hand grenades your direction
Why why take the risk Yeah, you said that you said it to me a whole bunch of times you say what does your manager think about I Mean, you know, it's just such crazy times.
I mean the truth is that I truly wish we could Rewind the clock and make make everything like it was in 2008 and 2007 that would be really great.
I mean that was an enjoyable time of life we we really are coming to it's like it's like the lies of pluralism and the lies of like I would almost call it like globalization almost, you know, we're multiculturalism or Tolerance or I don't know what you want to call it.
All of those lies are We're basically have the fruit of it now, right? Eventually eventually people are going to follow their worldview down the path and at some point
It's we can't keep saying peace peace when there is no peace and I think that that's what happened with me
I got to the point when I just said, okay, wait a minute All right at the point in which we have whether it's
Christian musicians Christian worship leaders or whether it's Christian pastors like, you know
Joshua Harris and and people like that and and maybe even more currently what we see happening with people like Andy Stanley and stuff
At the point in which we have all of these people saying such Unorthodox things or even just flat -out leaving the faith and just you know
Setting fire to the church when they leave or setting fire to the gospel when they leave We cannot
Sit silent with these things. In fact, it's why James I've actually got a physical book here I'm gonna show show people what it looks like.
Here's what it looked like so that the cover is a little bit alarmist
Say it's good. It's burning. Well, I actually don't think it's that alarmist once you have 51 percent of a generation
Cheering on Hamas and Beginning to say, you know what? Maybe bin
Laden had a point. Maybe America is the bad ones you know, it's like once you you do that you realize we really are at the the demise of a nation and so you got to ask yourself some questions like What is it that you guys you you people cheering on the destruction of America?
What would you like to replace it with What what do you think is going to be better than that?
You know and what we're seeing in the Christian music world now It's just like hey if we don't stand against this now this apostasy in a
Christian music There will be no such thing as Christian music. And and in fact, you probably could make an argument
To what degree is it even Christian music anymore? Anyway, I mean, it's it's not like it used to be
I mean, I don't want to make it sound like the good old days were perfect you've always had compromise in every in every institution, but You used to at least know that if you were going to a
Christian bookstore People were at least going to do their best to pretend That we were all singing about something we believed in and now
There's no pretense. And the truth is is that most Christians don't even really super care either
I mean, I've spent the last two weeks being rebuked by people by Christians because I you know said something about Drag Queens coming to the double wards, you know people that call them call themselves
Christians coming in drag and and and and then you spend Two weeks getting rebuked by people about it and you just go my lord
Jesus come quickly, you know So anyway, I am NOT pessimistic about the end
Meaning I I trust God's providence. I I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit Through the church.
I believe in the power of the gospel to change lives But we have a job to do and the church has got to wake up You know you mentioned being rebuked for the past couple of weeks
Over a situation that I've shared with you Long Long before you and I ever hooked up You know, you sent me you sent me a picture a couple weeks ago
You all were watching one of my debates on the bus driving somewhere. I forget where it was
I think he said this is how rock stars take the day off or something like that And it was watching a debate that I had done.
Well years ago. I Was contacted by a Christian Artist group that was doing the exact same thing and it was
Cateman's call and I was contacted by Derek Webb and so We had contact.
It's it's not that once the wheels fell off. He ever contacted me. He didn't I wish he had
I don't know what I necessarily could have done for him before everything fell apart, but there have been those those times and Obviously, I couldn't say much to what happened at the
Dove Awards But you you certainly could because I didn't you guys win something as well Yes, we were not there.
But yes, we did. Yeah. Okay, so I mean you can say something you've got standing They could care less what in the world
I have to say But yeah, that's a that's a that's a situation the other thing that most people don't know and this surprised me
Is that you were a postie before I was? And Right.
In fact you said once That if I listened to the earliest albums that skillet did
That I would be able to see post -millennial themes in the songs and the way you put it once was
But I don't really write them anymore because no one understood what I was talking about But You know, there's a level of truth to that but yeah you go back to some of those earliest when you were when you were a blonde
Baby faced kid basically There were there was post -millennial themes in in a lot of the a lot of the earlier albums and so you were there before before I was and So you're coming at this not from where most people are coming at this and that is a
Dispensational pre -millennial background that's sort of determining how you're gonna look at world world events you're coming to this book and You're seeing a utopian ism and there is a utopian ism in the
WF who globalist secular idea that if we just Establish these
Secular standards that all is going to be well, you're gonna you're gonna own nothing and be happy about it.
La la la stuff You're coming to that stuff and you know what it means to have a positive hope for the future but you have to differentiate that in light of sin redemption the reality of life in this world from the
Utopian ism of the secular perspective which ignores all that ignores sin ignores redemption ignores the law
So, how do you how do you communicate to your audience which because at one point we had a discussion
I remember I was in the RV that doesn't tell me much, but I remember I was in the RV and You said something along the lines of you were
I think you had put in a discussion or a Definition of some of the millennial views and then you were gonna take it out.
You remember that? Hmm. Yes, I do And yes, that's right. What did you end up doing along those lines?
Cuz how do you how do you make the distinction between what you called the faux utopian ism or faux post millennial ism and A biblical perspective with an audience that not doesn't necessarily know what any of those background issues are
Yeah. Yeah, so here's here's kind of how I did it. Um Maybe I'm gonna rewind a little bit if that's alright
James and give people a little bit of understanding about Why I'm writing this utopia thing.
I started thinking. Okay, there's been some really great Christian books on certain issues
For instance, I loved fault lines by Vodie Bauckham was fantastic I loved
Carl Truman's book. It's called the rise and triumph of the modern self. I believe is what it's called
Live not by lies Rod Rehr So there's a lot of great books focused on different things my friend
John Harris from conversations that matter podcast Wrote the social just this goes to church.
That was really great on the social justice movement and I was saying What do all of these things have in common and what they all have in common is that they are trying to reach?
Utopia a perfected society of equity. We have you have the racial equity you have the
Marxism the sort of Economic equity you have the neo -marxist which breaks everybody up into gender sex race, you know you have all of that kind of equity you have the communist
America is the biggest oppressors on the planet Earth. You have all of these things then of course you have the sexual revolution the sexual utopia people all of this is about creating this utopia and What I wanted to do for people is
Rather than just go off on these ideas I wanted to give people what the original writers said and the reason is is because Probably like a lot of people watching your show in the last three years.
I've had dozens of conversations with Christian people Christian people who I consider brothers and sisters in Christ and we are butting heads.
We're butting heads on BLM. We're butting heads on COVID on whether churches should be locked down.
These are people that were mad at pastor MacArthur for opening up his church These are people that would have hated apologia for sure
You know, we're butting heads on literally everything but but we're they're
Christians and we're brothers and I'm trying to make it work and I will say something negative about fill in the blank critical race theory
Winnie 30 times somebody said John you don't even know a critical race theory is that's just a right -wing talking point.
They don't teach that in school it's only a legal theory and every time I've had that conversation
I want to rip my hair out because I I do know a critical race theory is and in fact, it sounds like my opponent doesn't know what it is
They're just repeating a left -wing talking point which says that I'm just giving a right -wing talking point so what
I did in the book as It said there's nearly 650 footnotes from from all the original folks
Hegel Marx Ingalls Freud Nietzsche critical theorist
Marcuse Into the postmodern era Foucault dare it dared on all these people sense with critical whiteness studies
So that the Christian can see the words and realize
How much these people hated God? Yeah, they they don't even pretend to not hate
God. They are passionately Vocal about hating God and so that is the utopian aspect
What I don't dig about the faux Postmillennial, that's what I call it. The faux postmillennial aspect is a is a and by the way
I don't talk about eschatology a lot. I'm not a theologian I could never go into a debate and win if it came to that and I never divide
I would never divide over eschatology. The one thing I really want to do is encourage Christians Whatever your eschatology is is in your life to live
Victoriously, so you might not believe in the in the quote -unquote victorious Church on earth but certainly
Certainly you agree That Christ has been victorious over the power of sin in our lives
And you have the power through the Holy Spirit to put that thing to death And that is what so drew me to postmillennial ism
Actually was realizing oh you mean I don't I don't have to live in sin as a
Christian Like of course, I'm gonna keep sending but I'm talking about Patterns of sin and addiction and this and the other you mean through the power of the
Spirit I can overcome those things because of the work of Christ on the cross that blew me away
And so the thing I don't like about faux postmillennial ism Is that they typically are very morally confused and I'm I realize
I'm making a generalization But these people are morally It's almost like they think
Everybody's gonna get saved and because everybody's gonna get saved or be nice to each other Then everything's just gonna miraculously happen and people are no longer gonna commit sins against their neighbors
Well, that's just utopian ism. That's That like God gave us a law for a reason so that we can understand who he is
And so the law is a school teacher the Bible says so from the law
I understand what is wrong and what is right and part of glorifying God in my understanding in the post -millennial
Eschatological Dominion worldview is that we glorify God by using his moral law to Institute our civil law and that is how we bless the world.
That's how we know what is actually righteous What I see in the first the faux postmillennial camp is they are basically just taking on These secular philosophies of the world like critical race theory or you know
Reparations and this and the other and saying see that's what the kingdom of God would do because they're helping the poor
But they look just like the secular utopians. They're never at odds with the secular topias.
How often have you seen a Christian You know post mill somebody like, you know,
Eric Mason or somebody like that I don't actually know his eschatology, but he talks about this gospel of the kingdom a lot
How many times have any of those people ever stood up for the unborn ever?
How many of those people have ever stood against radical gender theory? how many of them have stood against the the mutilation of teenagers because of this
The the gender theory madness that we are seeing how many of them have stood up against Palestine is this
Hamas and not Palestine but Hamas and these evil things They never stand up for any of those justice issues because those justice issues are considered to be
Quote -unquote conservative or whatever. They are they only stand up for justice
When the neo -marxists have told them they are supposed to and I think that's a very telling thing
Well, remember that Eric Mason has called for an ecumenical Church Council to declare me a heretic so Then there's that so I don't think he's done that for you yet, but you the book might get you there
Well, we'll see if we can we'll see if we can get you Condemned as a heretic by some ecumenical council just for the fun of it.
Well, we're all rad it By the way, I've come up with a new term for you while I was listening to you talking
It'll it's a whole lot easier to say on webcasts instead of faux post -millennialism just call it faux poe faux poe faux poe
I like that this faux poe. Well, that'll be that'll get you get you through interviews a lot a lot faster.
So so the this idea of a utopia
I'm not I'm not sure that people on our side have been Clear enough in warning about this.
I I don't know if you remember the There was a video that came out about two years ago this
This did you see this? It's like built in a desert. It's this city. That's like it this narrow, you know
You know, we're talking about 15 -minute cities and stuff like that, which is also known as the concentration camp but 15 -minute cities and this this city with it that you can cram all these people into and it's all it's so Easy and all this stuff and I'm sitting here going all of this ignores the fact that you're cramming these people into a tiny little space and You're not changing their hearts and We're watching the crime that is taking place around the world but especially in Western cultures right now because we have abandoned the moral constraints that had
Even when even when the explicit beliefs had sort of gone by the wayside there was still the the tradition that sort of held things together that's falling apart now and You cram you try to cram everybody into these utopian spaces and It's going to result in Incredible degradation.
This is not how humanity flourishes Because you know whether you use the term or not what you were just talking about Regarding God's law is called theonomy and there are people that freak out when you even use that term
But obviously we're sitting in a situation today where the world is
Because of its the encroachment of secularism and its worldview the only way you can come up with this is right and this is wrong is you start by manipulating people's emotions you start by doing what we've done with the
Indoctrination system not the education system. It's not education the indoctrination system and removing from people the capacity to do serious critical thought and Then you try to get them to go some direction that grants power these people but then to get to utopia you eventually have to Use tyranny you have to use power to force people
To do what you want them to do. There's no basis for Liberty. There's no basis for freedom There's no basis for any kind of human flourishing in those situations
And of course what we've been saying all along was if mankind wants to flourish We need to flourish in the light of God's truth because we are
God's creatures but secularism says we're just a bunch of bags of fizzing chemicals and the only way to get all the bags of fizzing chemicals to fizz the same way is through the use of tyrannical power and So we see that going we have a communist dictator
Guilty of genocidal murder of the Uyghurs Imprisoning of Christians all across his land in the
United States right now being treated like a king and So many of the young generation is like, oh, isn't it?
Wonderful what they do over there and We're just left going Well, you know when you when you take over a system that forced everybody to go for eight hours a day to be indoctrinated,
I guess this is what you end up getting on the other side and So you raise the the statement and that's the question here
All right. Let's say the wheels fall off Let's say there's a period of real darkness heading the world's direction
This is not sustainable Secularism cannot cause human flourishing in this world
So Somebody has to be saying This is how you rebuild When all of this comes crashing down So it seems to me that some of the tensions that I you know,
I I don't get the feeling you're a super huge You know, like really check it frequently social media guy
But because you do Cooper stuff, you've got to be on there enough to see some of the trends that are happening but it seems to me that part of the argument going on amongst
Christians is Between those who want to try to go back and rescue what we thought we had and Those who recognize it's too late for that We have to be looking forward to building something new and that's still and that's still an area of valid I think disagreement dialogue discussion and stuff like that What do you think?
Where do you sort of where are you sort of feeling right now? I mean because from my perspective.
Hey, the only the only way this mess is going to be rescued is a massive work of the
Spirit of God in bringing Tremendous repentance. I mean just you know
I don't know how to describe it. That would be the only way When I look at Scripture it seems to me most the time when something like this has happened
It's come after major judgment after you know Israel goes to Babylon the temples burned to the ground.
There's nothing left type type situation Normally, it's judgment that ends up bringing that along but God can do what he wishes
What what do you think? Yeah, you know, I want to read this scripture, which I'm sure you've probably read on your show a billion times, but this is second
Thessalonians chapter 2 verse starting in verse 9 the coming of the lawless one will be
Accompanied by the working of Satan with every kind of power sign and false wonder and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing
Because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them for this reason
God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie in Order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
I mean, I think that that is Exactly what's happening now? I think things are worse than what a lot of Christians than what a lot of us think it is and if I could kind of rewind a little bit about the utopian thing,
I Think one of the things that Christians don't know because this is so crazy It's so crazy a lot of Christians go.
Yeah, I know that's not true. So they don't study it deeply don't blame them But they got to really understand what these utopians believe and you're talking about the tiny wall where we're all seven or eight billion people on the whole planet are gonna live and We got to understand what these utopians believe from Marx To all the way to now they have never been shy about admitting
That in order for this well number one they believe that man is going to evolve into a new
Superman Marx even calls him as Superman it will become a
Man will recreate himself Nietzsche called it calls it the ubermensch You see this writing through the critical theories as man becomes liberated man becomes a new kind of a man well, what is that new man look like well that new man is perfected and Marx and none of them are shy about saying in order for the man to be perfected.
There's gonna have to be tyranny They're not shy about that They're like, yeah, we're gonna have to force people to do it because people still have these old habits like eating, you know
Like having children having a family Yeah, having a family owning owning a thing owning something they say you have to be tyranny
But then we're going to reach a new level then you've got in 1935 Wilhelm Reich who is a
Freud Oh Marxian. He was he's a Marxist, but he was a student of Freud. He worked with Freud He's the author of the book the sexual revolution.
That is the book They call him the father of the sexual revolution that inspired the 1960s free love movement in the city other so he wrote these
Pseudo scientific, you know things and he took he said well the problem with Marx and with linen
Excuse me The problem with linen is that linen did not take Marxism far enough because linen did not really include
The sexual revolution it included the economic but you can't truly have an economic revolution to create the
Superman Without the sexual revolution to create this Superman.
So how are you going to create this the sexual revolution? Well, you have to unleash sexuality as Early as possible.
So he he talked about the free sexual rights of children. He Talks and I'm not trying to be shocking on the show, but he talks about babies need to have orgasms
Children need to have sex with each other Adults need to watch children's have sex with each other all sorts of the most godless demonic stuff
I've ever read but this is a guy that was hailed as a hero all the way from Hollywood to the critical theorist to You know the
New York Times to all of all all the people what they believed Was that once man was liberated sexually and he evolves into his new superhuman state
The man is not going to commit crimes anymore Yeah, because it because a man who is who is sexually free and has become a
Superman He doesn't want to commit any sort of sexual crime He doesn't need to steal because he has everything he needs because he is now the
Superman and the state has the power to give Him everything he needs and the only reason people do anything wrong is because they've suffered trauma from society
So I don't think the Christians have understood how deeply these people are messed up Yeah, so all that to say
Imposed tyranny will lead to the Superman then they can put us in that little wall that you're talking about with your little bitty
Living space and nobody's gonna hurt each other Because we're gonna live in bliss and we're gonna save the earth in the meantime
So I guess how I would answer your question is is I do think you're right. There are some
Wonderful conversations that need to be had in terms of all right How do Christians move forward and and I'm all up for those conversations
I see good on both sides to be honest with you the the one thing that I do not think is good that I'm 100 % against is the
Christians calling for pietism. It's the Christians saying James Or Cooper you need to stop talking about You know, like when they when they see my book cover they freak out because it's got an
American flag on it. Like I'm involved in some sort of idolatry or something like that and like I like I've confused
America with like Israel like spiritual Israel. I don't know. I don't even know what they're talking about But this idea that America doesn't matter at all.
The government doesn't matter at all law doesn't matter It's not about that. It's about the gospel only I Don't know why they don't realize the tyranny that is imposed hurts
Christians atheists Everybody it hurts everybody and it brings us all to tyranny
That's the one thing that I just don't really have much patience for but I do agree with you that If we're ever going to see any sort of true
Reformation in our culture it has to begin with revival it begins in the church
Let's say it like this. It begins with with revival Which is a an actual true outpouring of the
Spirit where you are talking about millions of people repenting of their sin Repenting of hating
God repenting of hating his ways coming to Christ and being changed, but if I've understood
My litter my literature on the histories of revivals and I'm pretty sure
I have understood it Revival always begins with the church calling out for a revival of holiness amongst
God's people if God's people would just cry out for holiness and Repent of our sin and repent for the fact that we embrace
Pornography in the church. We embrace abortion in the church. We embrace radical gender theory and drag queens coming to the double wars
And even if we don't embrace it, we embrace it with our silence We embrace it with people and I'm not trying to be a huge jerk
But I guess I just say I'm a bit of a jerk and I got to call these people out We embrace it silently with when people like Andy Stanley Say what they are saying about Sexuality and And you have people who know the
Bible people like me I'm not a theologian, but I know the Bible well enough that I listen to what he's saying and I go, what is he saying?
What does he mean when you have people who love the Bible go disagreeing? You know, if you listen to a
Stanley you get ten theologians They would all say sounds like he's saying something different to me. We don't really know.
What is the point of that? And so I I say Revival has got to start in the church
Crying out to God that we would truly be salt and light and I believe if we were salt and light
There are enough people in this country we would see a wave of revival happen because it would be a clarion call to repent and be born again and To me.
It's just the church is just impotent and Just unholy. We've just put up with too much.
I think you'll Find interesting this morning Dr. Albert Moller on his program called the briefing
Spent of well the whole the whole program. He normally doesn't do that. It normally does different segments.
We did the whole program on What's going on in Indiana? with the
Kinsey Institute I Guess the the state legislature has pulled funding from the
Kinsey Institute at the University Because of just how vile you were talking about Reich and you were talking about sexual revolution
Well Kinsey's book in 1948 Was central to all of that as well as a very same stuff.
It was He was clearly involved with pedophilia and all sorts of I mean he himself was a just horrific sexual pervert and yet Since it was dr.
Kinsey, even though and it's fascinating If you ever I'm sure you've listened to because I've told you to listen to it
And if you haven't don't tell me you haven't because I've told you to listen to it so many times The bonds and Stein debate between Greg Bonson and Gordon Stein Stein so many of these atheists debaters are scientists, but their their
PhD dissertation was in some kind of you know Strange invertebrate animal or something has nothing to do with what they're talking about now
And that was the same way he was he was an expert in some kind of slug or something But he was given this overarching authority to tell everybody
About human sexuality and specifically again the the normalcy of What we would call deviance in the youngest children and That all those things were good and right and proper and so you have this this onslaught
But there was so much Christian Belief in this nation that has taken decades for that onslaught to eat through that foundation and Just now the foundation starts crumbling all around us
You know, you talked about how nice it was in 2007 2008 but the reality was the termites were very very active in and had been active for decades and It's not until the floorboards start falling out that we start seeing
The foundational elements of all this kind of stuff around us But you might want to catch today's briefing because it was very interesting the information about Kinsey and Moeller kept saying
I can't say anything more but it's in the books, you know Because it's just so so vile as to what these individuals were doing so yeah,
I'm I I don't know I'm not a prophet nor a son of a prophet, but I do know that we need to have our young people
Trained and grounded in Not just a vague Christian worldview but a heartfelt commitment
To the fact that they are the creatures of God that if my grinch my grandchildren my my grandsons are being taught that there is a
Calling of God upon them as a man to be a man to fulfill
God's calls upon their life. My granddaughters are being taught that it's beautiful to be a woman a life -giver a mother a
Nurturer that these are different roles and that God gave them those roles.
In other words, they need to have a more passionate commitment To what the
Bible teaches they are than the secular Wackos out there that are have been taken over by this cultic thinking that will destroy them
But they are committed to their worldview. They are committed to their cult and They're willing to give their lives for it.
Well You know Pizza parties after church on Sunday night are not going to be enough to produce the kind of dedication
There needs to be a sincere focus upon grounding our young people in what
God's called them to be and Yes, that that's you know, those are the next generations.
They're they're the ones that's Need to be doing it. So we need we need some skillet anthems on the goodness of being
Called to be a man the goodness of being called to be a woman the the beauty of the family
Let's get to it, man I'm putting an order in right now.
We need we need we need some, you know Dominion my son called
Dominion the the greatest post -millennial theme song ever Mainly because the guitar solo, but we need you know,
I'm not sure about that part but but We you know, so I'm putting the order and what do you think any any possibilities?
I like it Yeah, your Josh your son Josh should text me that same thing and I said, yeah, let's go.
I loved it Um, man, I you know, I love what you just said James and I wouldn't mind Expounding upon it very quickly if I could we'll see if it's quick but one of my favorite things in the book is
Really what you just talked about. I think that what we focused on when I was growing up in church.
I Was taught manhood. I was taught womanhood. I was taught What the Bible says all wonderful stuff
But I always understood it as hey, this is what the Bible says So therefore we need to do it because that's what
God says all true. Love it What I wasn't really taught so much and what
I speak about a lot in the book is that God created a moral universe and He created the moral law and his moral law coincides with his moral universe
So in other words when we say you just said we need to teach kids to have a passion
Some of what you're talking about is the design of God he created the world to work in a certain way and it's beautiful and it's wonderful and It's good to obey
God, but it's deeper than that It's also the fact that when you obey God you find that you are in the flow of The good world that he created in the book
I call it being in the flow of the kingdom because that's the way he created his his world his world to be and I think that sometimes
Christians, especially if they lean towards a little bit more pietism They tend to think that when we talk about these things
Tyranny all the list of stuff we've talked about today. They tend to go. Oh, why are you involved in all this culture war?
We're not trying to make we're not trying to force people to do things the way we want them to do them
What they don't understand is that part of why we're saying this is because we love these people We care for these people and if they buck against the created order
There's going to be consequences So here's an example I give in the book What if God had created the reproduction process in such a way that only same -sex?
intercourse could produce children In other words a man and a man having sexual intercourse or a woman and a woman having sexual intercourse
That's the only way you could produce children, but then God's moral law says Men shall not lay with man as he lays with a woman
Well, all of a sudden you would find out that God's moral law is working against the very world
He created so the only way you can please God Leads you to a life that does not produce and does not flourish and things don't actually go well with you
But at least you're pleasing God But that's not what he did and I think if we can train young people
Yes in worldview. Yes in obedience to Christ, but also saying but God's laws are not arbitrary.
They are reasonable They work and God created man and a woman to be
Complimentary and once you see it and you see that man and woman fit together physically sexually spiritually
Emotionally, etc. It's actually beautiful and you find yourself in a place where you are thriving and so I wanted to say that because it also ties back into the last question of How do we give a positive vision for the future how can
Christians what do we do? What do we do in a world that is given over to delusion?
In fact, maybe because people hated the truth. God is giving them over to an even stronger delusion
What are we to do with that? Well, I would say this Implement the principles of the kingdom of God and you will find that the people of God are going to flourish in a way that the world just isn't and I'll just give you this one example.
It's so natural, but it's kingdom principles Everybody knows it. You've seen the literature who do you think is going to flourish more a child who is raised in a two -parent family or a one -parent family a
Child a child that's raised with parents that said you are a boy and that is a wonderful thing
You are a girl and that is a wonderful thing or the child that's raised when they say hey
You might be a girl. You might be a boy. You could be both. You could be neither You could be a unicorn. You could be two -spirit.
We only you can know from your own inner feelings Who do you think is going to flourish more and we could we could go down that line?
We have right now in our schools people are taught that math is racist two plus two can equal five yada yada yada
There's no objective truth who's gonna flourish more the Christian who understands that God Created his world with absolutes and objective truth or the kid that doesn't believe that well all of those things exist
We could keep going down the list I just believe the problem is is that we have not been teaching these generations to do it.
And that's the reason why truthfully as sad as it is The levels of pornography in the church are not all that different than they are in the world
The levels of divorce in the church not all that different than they are in the world. We can go down the list
We are not being salt and light which brings us all the way back to the victorious cross
Christ Paid the price on the cross and he has given you everything you need for life and godliness
I believe if we would live lives like that the church would be so bright That we would begin to see the nation change
Well, yeah, I started feeling a little preaching coming on I get excited
I've seen I've seen you preach to Yeah One way of expressing what you're just saying is teaching our children
To have a passionate dedication to the culture of holy life
Over against the culture of destructive death, which is what they're being committed to now
And They've got to understand what the difference is and they've got to embrace it in such a way that they're not
They don't feel that they're better than their friends outside who are committed to that culture of death
But that they recognize by God's grace They have been given an understanding of what will lead to life and they need to be used
To in God's in God's sovereignty to help the others come to know what will lead to life as well
Rather than what will lead to death and destruction. So so, all right, we've gone over an hour
How do how do people get hold of I'm sure it's only available in academic
Bookstores and things like with 600 plus footnotes and things like that. It's uh, you know, probably only available at your local
Universities and seminary bookstores, right? Yeah It's not available at the
Kinsey Institute, no, no, no No, um, unfortunately at the moment
It's only available at my website. John L. Cooper calm The Kindle version is available on Amazon and it's gonna be another few weeks before the book is on Amazon so go to John L Cooper calm and You can get the book there.
I was gonna say one other thing and I can't remember what it was hardback I Yes, there is a limited edition hardback that's available on the on the website so you can get that there there is a quote from dr.
James White in the book and And from some other folks that we will know and I don't think
I have anything else to say about it I think that that pretty much that pretty much covers it man. Okay, John L Cooper calm that's how you can get hold of The new book and I don't know is it is there a holiday coming up that maybe people might want to you know
Give away, you know copies to friends and hear that or this, you know make themselves, you know
Persona non grata at Christmas parties because you use that as your white elephant gift, you know type thing
Never get invited back by your the Liberals and your family something along those lines, right? That's possibility
So bring in God and God's providence give this to the person who you know needs it most and they're gonna hate you
Yeah, um, no, I do think it's it could be a good gift and I think namely if I could say one more thing
I think it's a good gift for for Christians who Who are faithful But might not quite believe
The the the quote -unquote alarmist things that we're saying and the reason
I say that you touched on it earlier James. I Think that we need to get to the place as Christians that we believe if what?
The revolutionaries we need to believe that they mean what they're saying. In other words
When people are cheering on Hamas as Hamas is cheering death to America We need to believe that these people really want death to America There's no reason to not believe them when when we when we read the gender theorists say that The best way to bring liberation to human beings is to sexualize them as babies
We need to believe that they mean it I think part of the problem is is we haven't believed that these people actually mean the radical things that they're saying
They're playing for keeps they have a totalizing Utopian kingdom that is evil and we need to be to believe it
So I think it's a good gift for somebody like that that you they do love God They're just not awake to the battle yet Maybe this book will uh, we'll wake them up a little bit and thanks so much for having me on the show, too
By the way James and for your faithfulness for your friendship. I really appreciate it. Well, I Want to get the word out?
I Haven't even asked you yet Whether you have any ideas of follow -up work in the future
There's normally a downtime for me after a book where I don't even think about stuff like that too much
But I just I just There was other what there was one other thing if you've got just a minute.
I sure last week, Ohio Someone I think
Doug Wilson put it they they signed their own death warrant something along those lines In in the murder of unborn children,
I couldn't help but think About one of the topics that we had on last time that we were in the studio together here in Light of what happened in,
Ohio when when you heard about the Constitutional amendment there and basically abortion up to the point of birth
Did Lucy cross your mind at any point as you're thinking about those things? I gotta be honest.
No, it did it but I had two different people text me and say You know, this is reminding me of your song
Lucy and that and that remind and could I just I've written so many songs I forgot but I was
I Will I won't lie to you? I was um, I I keep getting annoyed with myself that I'm surprised at the level of of evil in fact the first chapter the first chapter in my new book is called the death of naivety and You know,
I'm I feel like my naivety is pretty much died I know what we're dealing with but I'll tell you brother things happen to see people cheering on Them that the murder of that I think it was something like over 70 % of single women voted in,
Ohio, I the the level of this kind of depravity is such a wake -up call and I will
I'm not gonna lie to you It may I'm embarrassed how sad it made me because I should
I should know this already But I just thought God help us. We are Driving off the cliff
We are giddy about driving up the cliffs shouting all the way down cheering all the way down And if we don't have the church stand up and start finding ways to lovingly
Convince people that God's ways are reasonable and right and and will lead you to freedom
It's gonna get bad man. It is gonna get so bad. So yeah, that's my little spiel
Yeah, no, I I did I did think about it that evening just simply because the the song speaks to the devastation that These people want to have happen.
They're rejoicing in it They and that this is this is what the culture of death is all about, you know scripture said it a long time ago
Godly wisdom says those who hate me love death if you're gonna if you're gonna if you're gonna hate godly wisdom, you're gonna love death and You don't want to wish death on anyone, but that's exactly what took place in Ohio it takes place all the time and in the state houses of California and New York and Even up in your neck of the woods
It's it takes place. So yeah, we we need to be in in prayer. We need to be actively seeking to Inculcate a
Compassionate yet deep love for the culture of life rather than a culture of death. So pick up John's new book
John Thank you so much. I don't know when you're headed back out our direction at all but I Know you're
Not soon Yeah, well, you could be on the road at all in the future.
I mean, do you have any idea what's coming up? Well, yeah, we're on the road now, which is why I'm in this random hotel room with whatever this painting is behind me
Oh, I was gonna ask you about that. I thought you were in a really pretty good spot there I thought well, you've got a nice nice place in the house.
It's like no, it's a hotel room. Great It's actually a quite a nice hotel room, but we're on the road right now
Finishing up a tour. We got another 15 shows and Yes, it's been very busy because I've been promoting the book and doing the concerts and That's what we're up to.
So I don't know what we're coming to see you again But yeah People can of course go check out skillets music to find out what we're doing and this and that the other
Alrighty, man. Well, you're are you guys are you the last ones up tonight? Yes, let's see actually we're not playing tonight today is a day off but we played last night in Ohio and I can't remember where and then tomorrow we're playing
Columbus. Well, there you go You're you're you're in the heart of what we were just talking about.
So Give them give them hope and give them life and thank you for joining us
And I hope the book does really really well and we'll be in touch man. Thanks a lot Thank you, brother.
Have a great one. Alrighty. God bless. Thank you All right, and Rich is taking care of all his stuff there and If John could still hear me,
I'll text you when we get done Thanks for watching the program today folks, and we will see you on the dividing line next time.