The Laborers" Podcast- Discipleship in a Healthy Church

Hello, hello. Good evening. This is the laborers podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and watching.

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Um We've got Claude with us Claude from the here I stand theology podcast.

We've got Jesse the Chicano Knox from the Bible theory Podcast we've got John with us

John Jones, and he is John tell us what church are you are you at real life?

Yes, sir John is it real life?

What's the full name real life Community Church and My podcast is real talk with big

John That's right. And I need to add your pocket. I need to add your podcast to the to the website and everything

Real talk with big John and real life Community Church Thankful to have these guys with us and we're gonna have a really good conversation.

I hope Lord willing tonight continuing our series on a

Healthy church What God says he is looking for in in his churches his local churches and so Tonight's conversation is going to be on discipleship.

I think we're all convinced that It's something that a healthy church is going to have so I'm gonna jump right into it

Well, let's start with you since you're at the top of the screen the the fine discipleship for us

Get down to the nitty -gritty All right. Oh, I'm so I'm gonna go to the text to make them to define the word, right?

So the simple definition of the word disciple is a learner a pupil or a disciple

So we could add we could add more to that It really I was so excited when

I saw the topic when he sent this out Because when I was a teenager in speakers tournament as a kid

I had one of the speeches that I wrote one year was called too many believers too few disciples

That is so important. I believe it's important that we make that distinction tonight That there's a difference between someone saying they're a believer in Christ and being in disciple yeah, yeah, and this is

This is really an important topic for me as well because they're they're aspects of this conversation that that I still struggle with that I have went back and forth in in my studying in my mind in As far as application goes what what this really looks like because in in this subject with this subject and I think with with many other subjects we've got

This is how we've seen it in our church or this is how I saw it Applied growing up and and then as we grow and we learn we read scripture.

We we start to see different things from scripture than maybe what we've been

Seeing in our churches for 25 50 70 of a hundred years And so, you know,

I'm struggling What is the application what what what does God mean by discipleship

How do we work that out in our lives and in our in our church? And yeah, I want to get down to that tonight, too.

And we may not We may not come to full agreement or full conclusions tonight, but I think the conversation is good

Let's make a biblical case because we're having this conversation because we think this is a biblical topic

I'm Justine you want to tackle that one a biblical case for discipleship?

Yeah, absolutely first of all Grace to you. Peace to all my brothers and sisters all the

Bible theorists out there listening Please share this link to all your friends and family members.

So first of all, yeah You know a disciple is a mathetate in the Greek the

New Testament uses the word math to take a Student a pupil, you know, it applies, you know to You know students of Christ's followers because that's what we're all at and there's a concept of being a disciple where sometimes people think of it as Like an early stage in your

Christian life when you first hear the gospel when you first hear You know the message of Christ and then you become a disciple and then for for some big

Evangelicals out there. Sometimes they graduate so -called being a disciple and then they move on And you know that that is a myth, you know, we we never stopped being this

We never stopped being a disciple of Christ. I don't care if you're you're you're like 53 83 or just three

You're a type of Christ if you believe in Jesus and trust in him as Your only hope for salvation

So that that's just a disclaimer Biblical case would have to just go back to the scriptures.

There's like, you know a bunch of scriptures You know like Luke 14 33 here

It says so therefore any one of you who does not denounce all that he has

Cannot be my disciple Another one John 13 35 by this all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another

You know You know It goes on and on John 13 15 for I have given you an example that you also should do just as I have done to you

You know, so and it goes on and on, you know Galatians 524 could be connected to the to the

To the aspect of being a disciple John 6. I mean Galatians chapter 6

Chapter 6 verse 6 so that you know, there's a long list of discipleships disciple making you know different aspects of disciple making cost of being the disciple

There's different scriptures that point to You know What what it means to be a disciple?

How do you become a disciple so that there's a lot of different verses out there? So I guess you know,

I would point to the fact that you know You never graduate from being the disciple.

It's a lifelong endeavor Biblically biblically speaking. There's no, you know graduation from the

University of being University of discipleship

And Jesse if I were to make this claim, let me know if you agree with this or not, so in church, hopefully hopefully in some of our churches or all of our churches where we're

Teaching and we're using some some of these big words and defining them and letting the people know their biblical relevancy.

But like you talking about starting with the message of Christ Justification when we're justified before God and we're made right before God and then we're we use the word sanctification where the

God through the Holy Spirit grows us and and would you think that Discipleship is

God's means here on earth of Sainthood sanctifying us growing us in Christ's likeness

Um Yeah, definitely the you know sanctification It's a lifelong process, you know and justification is alien righteousness to use that terminology from Jonathan Edwards that alien righteousness that comes

That originates from outside of us. It has nothing to do with anything. That's good inside of us, right?

and So, yeah, I guess there is an aspect to justification and or no on sanctification to Because you know sanctification is the work of God's grace

Right. It's not what we do. It's God's grace, you know, you know, it's working in us it's that is you know, so and that's something has you know sanctification has been predestined since before the

Creation of the world for us as well. So, you know Bearing with one another's burdens.

I guess I could see that as an aspect of You know discipleship patience long -suffering

You know loving brother in your enemies You know those type of things that a true community of Christ would do the marks of a disciple, right?

Yeah, I guess some of those things would apply to Be you know being sure, you know getting mature in Christ But even if you do all those things

I wouldn't say those things necessarily Are your grounds and foundation for sanctification because once they become our grounds our ground for sanctification

Then we we go back we do we basically great violence to the

Reformation And we go back to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Sanctification which is not necessarily a work of of the

Holy Spirit, but mostly on what we do To you know, make ourselves holy

So could you sum it up this way in some degree could you say that sanctification being a work of grace is where Obviously by by way of the

Holy Spirit that the believer is Made more

Christ -like out of the abundance of grace that he has received while he's alive on this earth Does that make sense that way?

Because we recognize the grace and the kindness that Christ has given us that the things that Make us more

Christ -like are the things that kill our flesh We We actually want to do more than we're fortunate to do them

I don't want to be I want to be careful not to make this sound like it's some kind of a personal work But rather it's more of an evidence of salvation as opposed to a as opposed to a work of salvation

That makes sense at all Amen, I find it more often than not

What we refer to as sanctification is more like what Paul's talking about when he says fruits meet for Repentance or the fruits that are worthy of salvation

These are the things that are the natural byproduct of salvation of a work of grace and our life and that's why they continue

That's why it's something that you never achieve on this side of this side of glory Right.

Is that kind of what you're trying to say brother? Yeah, you know, you know to get it clear. What is sanctification, you know for the record the

Westminster defines it as sanctification Is a work of God's grace whereby they

God has before the foundations of the world Chosen to be holy are in time, right?

Through the power of the operation of his spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them renewed in their whole man after the image of God having the

Repentance unto life and all other saving graces put to put to put into their hearts and those graces so stirred up increased and strengthened as That they as they as that they are more and more dying to sin and raise and to unto new new newness life

So yeah, it's a process. It never gets fully realized on earth has something to do with us.

It's a Nation of God's application of Christ's work in us and You know and you know, that's evident too, you know, cuz you're right

We do need to work in a sense that proves our faith you know like loving loving the brothers and all that stuff, but we got to make sure that discipleship doesn't become our our

Our our You know to use the theological word our evangelical

Good or evangelical charitable works to use a Puritan word

Because even though our evangelical charitable works are good and necessary for for the marks of a disciple

They in themselves didn't do not save us They in themselves like Paul says

I count all as done Even all the good Works they have done

Yeah, and to To jump in real. I want to jump in real quick Jesse you you had mentioned it earlier.

I want to quote the passage that you had mentioned in Philippians earlier, right Paul said In Philippians 2 12 and 13 therefore my beloved as you have always obeyed

So now not only in my presence But much more in my absence and then Paul said this work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Right if we were just to stop there, then There would be a lot of folks that would base their

Sanctuary and I know we're talking about discipleship, but we've got on to sanctification here as an as the as the actual producer of Inevitance of being a disciple, but Paul goes on to say this work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is in Christ who works in you both to do

And to will of his good pleasure and you're exactly right good works Aren't the basis or the standard on which we determine if someone is saved or lost

But good works are the evidence in other words We don't we don't work to be saved

But we do good works because we are saved and really it comes down this comes down to a great big

Issue right here. I'm gonna use my old Communication Lordship salvation versus no

Lordship salvation It's surprising that you'd be amazed at how many of the church are will run against Lordship salvation

Those who will say I'm saved, but I'm not a follower or disciple of Christ I accepted

Jesus as my Lord or about my Savior, but he's not my Lord I didn't make him Lord till down the road

But that goes completely contrary to the scriptural in the biblical call to salvation biblical call to salvation from Jesse quoted a little bit of that earlier.

I'm sorry for talking to you, but man go ahead. Yeah Luke 14 right

Luke 14 25 Jesse quoted 30 verse 33, I believe but Luke 1425 this is the biblical call to salvation

Salvation the gospel call is not come to Jesus. So your life can be better come to Jesus So your marriage can be fixed come to Jesus so you can be a better boss

Come to Jesus so you can be a better this or a better that Because you are lost and you stand in need of salvation and outside of Jesus Christ There is no hope the gospel call is a hard call

What Jesus said great crowds accompanied him This is after he healed the man on the

Sabbath day great crowds accompanied him and he turned aside and said to them If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children brothers and sisters

Yes, even his own life. Jesus said this he cannot be my disciple

Want to know where The the the numbers like Rick Warren quotes, right we've had this we've baptized this many people 55 ,000 people we trained this many pastors.

Where are they now? Salvation isn't a temporary Doesn't have a temporary effect biblical.

I mean Holy Spirit imparted Regeneration will change you your entire life

There is nobody in the gospel accounts nobody in the Acts accounts where we read

Cry them encountering Christ savingly where they walked away and we're not

Completely changed as a matter of fact, Jesus said if any man being Christ, he's a new creature

Oh things are passed away and behold all things have become new He goes on and says this which of you desiring to build the tower does not first sit down and count the cost

Whether he has enough to complete it Otherwise when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish all who see it begin to mock him

Saying this man began to build and was not able to finish Or what team going out to encounter another

King in war will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able But ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand

And if not while the other is yet a great way off. He sends a delegation and asked for terms of peace

So therefore any of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be a disciple

So maybe back to that definition Disciple is not only a pupil and a learner, but it's someone who has renounced all confidence in himself

He's renounced all confidence in his flesh and he is fallen I mean collapsed on Jesus Christ in the work that he did on Calvary Death is burial and resurrection and when it comes down to the end of the way if somebody says how can you be?

Absolutely certain that you are Christian We can say this not because of any good works that I've done

But because of the great work that Christ has accomplished for me and for my sin I can say without a doubt that I'm saved by the grace of God Comes down to that and nothing else.

Yeah, that's right. Amen Amen, and I think right now is a good time to bring into bring into this another good point from my perspective one of the things that you guys were talking about was the the

Philippian verse where it's Not it's not by man's will not by my will but to to will and to do is

God's work Here's a word for anybody that's that's on this this road of discipleship you're discipling somebody else

You're working with somebody else or or you're reflecting on your own life of discipleship And you can reflect on that verse and say

I Don't have to be discouraged You I don't have to compare myself to somebody else because this is this is

God's work and he is working in me It's not something that I need to accomplish or achieve on my own

God is doing this work and you don't have to be discouraged where you are

Just just get up and be thankful For what he's done and In Christ and in your life so far

But there's no call or no reason to be discouraged because God is is working

And God will continue to work and God will never stop working as as John and Jesse and Claude both have said thus far so so don't be discouraged

God will always work in you if if you are his if you're

Lord and Savior And I appreciate you guys chiming in whenever you feel led that's fantastic Just moving right along to the next question

John. That's going to be yours. So pulling from Scripture in Your experience your studies and reflections

What what would you think are the goals from Scripture of discipleship,

I think we've touched on well, I think if I'm following your your I'm gonna have to blend the next two questions together to give my answer

Okay, because I believe that the goal of discipleship is to be a disciple maker as well one of the things that as our

We're not being called to make converts. Let's go to the text Yeah, my favorite portion of one of my favorite portion of scriptures

Matthew 28. I'll start in 16 11 Disciples proceeded to Galilee to the mountain was

Jesus designated and they saw him they worshiped him But some were doubtful and Jesus came up and spoke them saying all authority has been given to me and heaven and earth

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nation baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son the

Holy Spirit Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you in low. I am with you always even to the end of the age

We just call this the Great Commission, but but oftentimes and I've been guilty of this

I'm not I'm not throwing rocks to the soul Oftentimes I have treated this as though it said make converse

And that couldn't be farther from the truth I don't think of discipleship as being something that you hold a man's hand through if a man is if a man has been saved

Then there is a desire for him to become more like Christ and you shouldn't have to call him up and talk to him on A daily basis.

So if we're looking at what are the goals of discipleship? The goals of discipleship should be that as an individual

I've I've become more like Christ and in doing so I make other Disciples by way of teaching them the things that he has taught us to his word

And I see this carried out the way the church should be ran. I've talked this several times

It's very simple, but Ephesians chapter 4 God is in is gifted us by his

Holy Spirit I want to say the text starts in 11. We'll read it because I don't know if everybody who's watching online

Can can just go for it. So we'll start in a say Ephesians, so we'll go

Yeah, we'll just start 11 everybody understand the context that we're talking about or Paul's dealing with the church is the body right and he gave some

Apostles and some prophets some evangelists and pastors and teachers for the equipping of the Saints for the work of service

Now this is something that I think we've we've really messed up for the equipping of the

Saints For the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of faith and the foreknowledge of the

Son of God To a mature man to the measure of stature, which belongs to the fullness of Christ as a result

And now we'll get to the results in a second. If we do that's fine. If we don't that's fine Oftentimes we've confused this this bracket of people

That Paul calls here in verse 11 as the bulk of the ministry

All right. How often have we really done this, you know? We call it ministry.

We call it service the fact remains is that the church as it is set up by Christ is to be a machine of sorts, but it's really the terrible way of putting it but to To see the

Saints inside the body made more Christ -like so that they So that they can go out and make disciples so that if looking at the next question

What does the what does the Bible say who is responsible for discipleship? Every individual who's been born again is responsible for his own personal relationship with God and his own discipleship with God as well as seeing others brought into the faith by either way of Example personal witnessing or encountering whatever whatever way

God gives you to share the Gospel in the faith with these with these men and women that they might be that they might be grafted in that's between you know that's between the

Lord and themselves and and The law it's really easy to say that it's very hard in practice to see that done but And there's other things that I would add to it.

I'm sort of spacing out on it in a moment But I think about Richard Wurmbrand Richard Wurmbrand whenever he was

Ministering to the Russians who'd come in and brought their communism into Romania. I believe it's Romania, wasn't it?

He He found out really quickly that the converts that they were seeing in their home churches

Were being massacred by the Communist Party and such a number that he said we found out very early on that it was not

It was not sufficient to simply make converts but to take the converts and equip them to make converts we had to have a church that was growing violently because the world was was being violent on it and In short to me discipleship is

Going to be about becoming more Christlike and seeing other people Warned of the faith and helping them become more

Christlike. I'll close it with this. I Tell my brothers and sisters all the time whenever I'm teaching them whatever it is.

I can do To help you Get to heaven. That's what

I'm going to do now There ain't much I can do really in the grand scheme of things But if there's something you can think of that I can do to help you

It's my it's my it's all my obligation to help you If I can lay down if I can lay down on my stomach and you climb up on my back to see

Christ clear I'll do that Where you're coming from brother? I feel you a hundred

How's that brother Rob's that? And and this this next from here on out is the part that I was talking about for me that I've struggled with for years

It's the application part What do we? What do we see in Scripture?

What do we not see in Scripture? And and this is going to be this is going to be something because we've in my last podcast with Dan We touched on this at the beginning some of the things that were going on the

SBC Okay, so they're Some of them well, there's there's

Baptist churches that are ordaining women And this is speaking from the

Southern Baptist perspective right now The the standard is the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 It said that the the role of pastor is is only is set aside for from Scripture only for qualified men

And but there are there are Baptist churches in the the Southern Baptist Church who are ordaining women as pastors and the people who are in charge of Deciding whether those churches should stay in good fellowship with the

Southern Baptist Convention are are dragging their feet and they are They don't have a backbone right now and for whatever reason and so part of that conversation that's coming out of that is okay, well if if they're if they're the lead pastor then then it's only for men we can have children's pastor, youth pastor music pastor, audio pastor, facilities pastor, whatever kind of pastor you want and they can be man or woman but as long as it's the

Lead pastors a man, you know, we're okay And we're we're aligning with the Baptist Faith and Message or we're aligning with Scripture or whatever

And that's kind of that's kind of where I'm coming from when it comes to the the rest of the conversation here and my struggle with it is

It's what's biblical and what have we? What have we twisted to? create

Programs in our churches to fit our structure and we call it our vision sometimes

So that so that we come up with plans we come up with structures in making things successful in In our eyes versus going back to Scripture.

And so who is responsible for discipleship? And I guess we'll get back to the next question was what can a local church do to equip those responsible?

responsible, but Getting I mean getting down to the bottom layer who's responsible for discipleship and and I like what you said

John, you know, we're there's a sense when you know, we're responsible in the sanctification process for our discipleship and We're responsible for leading others to Christ But but specifically and the reason

I say specifically because we've generated and we've created programs in our churches for discipleship,

I Know in the Baptist Church years ago. They used to call it

Discipleship training that that was our Sunday evening Class discipleship training and we have youth ministries for for discipling young people children ministry for discipling children

But in Scripture We don't see all these programs and we don't see all these

Different structures and we don't see all these different Pastors like youth pastor children's pastor.

We don't see all those things And so At this point, I'm just speaking out loud.

I'm thinking out loud I'm not going in one direction or another and you guys can join in this conversation, too

I'm just telling you where direction brother. This is your podcast Well, I say it that way because I'm I'm still

I'm still open for Correction. I'm still open for teaching and so if the

Bible does leave Room for Those things, you know,

I'm fine with that But if it would rather us be regulative and narrow and say this is how

Scripture teaches us to go And it doesn't say anything about youth pastor youth ministry children's pastors children's ministry and all these different structures and programs are we usurping the authority of Scripture and creating all these programs because what

I see in Scripture is The parents are our youth pastors and children's pastors that's their ministry of discipleship and I use the verse which which

I think we take it out of context Titus 2 4

We use that to say older women teach the younger women But we don't we don't read the whole thing and let me see if I can find it real quickly

So you'll you'll hear what I'm talking about First Timothy second

Timothy Let's see here Titus Titus 2 4 listen to the context of that verse because we usually just So that they may encourage the young women to let's see verse 3 older women

Likewise are to be reverent in their behavior not malicious gossips nor enslave too much one

Teaching what is good so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands to love their children to be sensible pure workers

At home kind being subject to their own husbands so that the Word of God will not be dishonored

So then those verses are very specific And we we take out that one portion that says older women teach younger women and we translate that to say, okay

Okay women you have your discipleship class and we have this teacher for you

Is that necessarily what it's talking about it? It's giving older women specific instructions on what to teach

Now the location may be different because it was you know back then they were

Probably closer in proximity to one another But this doesn't look like a discipleship class.

This looks out looks like life practical application So my question to you guys is is where do you fall in that conversation?

Am I tracking in the right direction? do we need to have a hundred different kinds of pastors a hundred different kinds of ministries and this can ruffle some feathers and We can land on different points

This thought run through my head not too long ago And I think when you guys quoted the verse earlier, but we are we are called to equip the

Saints I think maybe you John that quote that verse. We are we are called to equip the Saints for the work of ministry

That's correct. And it's the the Saints who are to be doing the the work of ministry. That's correct

It seems like our churches are creating Programs To Someone does have what you're saying.

Yeah, it's best. I understand it. I think in some ways it may be it may be bad hermeneutics on on this

Ephesians chapter 4 Because in a lot of ways at least has been what I have seen now now

I wasn't I wasn't saved as a young man I suppose relatively speaking. I was much younger than him.

I was 25 whenever I was saved, right? So but I wasn't raised As a

Christian there were Christians in my family and there were there were people that I knew that were Christian and I clearly knew that I wasn't now

I was a Anyway, so I think a lot of the things that I saw growing up and I still see today is this concept that the pastor of the church is his job to do all the shepherding and and that shepherding means teaching and discipling as well as There's a whole host of things that are part of his application his job qualification, but it

Is it is so clear it is so clear for he Gave some as and then there's apostles prophets evangelists pastors and teachers and And I think the way he reason he worded it that way is because that leaves nobody out from the writing of Scripture to the

Sunday School class that is 100 % of everybody that God has called to do some form of teaching

But it's for the equipping of the Saints the work of the service is for 100 % of the church

Not for the what percentage of the church is leadership I don't really know but I'm sure it's not that much that large of a

Even if there is a different pastor for every group of age group in a church You're still talking about probably 5 % of a church or 10 % of a church makes up the leader

No way in the world that all the ministry that Christ has asked us to do to be accomplished by 10 % of the church Right.

Yeah, so I Think that a lot of times that's just bad

Understanding of this scripture and scriptures like this has led men in our country to form an established religion like we have and and they all sort of fit the same criteria whether they're

Baptist or Pentecostal or Presbyterian Episcopal, it doesn't seem to matter that We do all our all our church and gets done on with Sundays and Wednesdays And if there's a small group day during the week it gets tagged along in there and that's a lot of folks don't crack their

Bibles any days other than those days and those folks One one could question our salvation if he wanted to the other the other end of that is our shirt certainly hasn't haven't forsaken everything to follow

Christ his brother Shukanna, what was your name brother? How do you say that You say a

Chicano Knox Chicano not And your name is my real name is

Jess That's right, so they certainly haven't forsaken everything to follow

Christ if they don't if they're not leading their children if they're not leading their spouses if the Men of the house aren't being priest of the home and they haven't abandoned everything to follow

Christ. They couldn't have they can't truly be disciples if They meet what we look at as a typical church service type of member, is that fair?

Is that kind of what you're getting at? yeah, and you said something earlier that hit the nail on the head that said

Better than what the how I was trying to say it and let me try to repeat what you said

You were talking about if someone is in Christ if they're a new creation like Paul was talking about then you don't have to coax them into having a

Desire to So you have churches with this

With this dilemma within themselves. It says, okay How do we get our youth here or or we don't have we don't have people who have a desire to to reach out

To the neighborhood. So what what kind of program can we create and how can we create this program in such a way that it entices

Our members to come so that they will reach out to the neighborhood so that they will So that the youth will come in how to get goat to act like sheep exactly

Trying to figure out a way to get goat to act like sheep You know, you take a goat you pin him up you feed him sheep food

You get shepherd every now and again to come in there you get him to jump over fences and you count him till you fall

Asleep, he's still a goat That's right. He's still a goat What? What Claude was saying earlier is is it was so dead -on.

It's not even funny you teach the gospel You teach them Christ quit trying to make better husbands better fathers better better Students and children and happy wives teach them that apart from Christ.

They're dead They're just dead and And if Christ be formed in them

Everything else will fall into place and you do not have to teach people to love Jesus if they already love

Jesus You don't have to teach people to pray and to read their Bibles and to study their scriptures if they love

Jesus they'll do this out of the abundance of grace that's been shed on them in their heart because of what

Christ has done for them so Many parts of discipleship. We've tried to manufacture sheep from goats

As opposed to just teaching them Jesus and letting them die. I think a lot of times we shield people from Jesus I think a whole lot of times we try to put roadblocks up so that they don't really feel that bad about their sin because You know, we don't want them to not come back

We want them to show up to church and bring their kids to all the VBS's and I love all this stuff I help with piles of different things inside of churches

That aren't mine because I believe that we ought to be investing in the church We ought to be investing in and in Christ's bride our time and our finances and everything that's about us

But to some degree I think man Y 'all back it up.

Yep I'm sorry to ring jump in there

I'm a dude. I'm Again amen. Amen. Amen.

Amen. So If we are following this logical train of thought

It comes back down to the fact as Johnny just said that churches

Aren't we the church themselves the leaders the ones that the Lord has put pastors and teachers in the church itself

That pastors and teachers aren't doing what they're supposed to do and that's teaching the scriptures.

We're not teaching methods We're not teaching programs But we're

T We should be teaching the scriptures so that when God's people go out into the world as they have to do every single day

Every single week and every single month of every single year when they're faced with these hard questions and these hard challenges all these folks that are talking about Deconstruction They're saying they're walking away from the faith.

They were never in the faith because it's it's likely that in most cases They've not sat under for a extended period of time and here's going to be a dirty word doctrinal preaching

If we're not preaching doctrines the doctrines of the scripture sin right sin righteousness heaven hell sanctification justification

Election whatever you go on and on these things that are Glanced over and skipped because oh the common man won't be interested in this

I've got to have something that'll that'll that has a hook that'll get up that'll get them and then once we get a man with This little bit of stuff then they'll stay but what you get somebody in with is what they're going to require

Constantly, so why not? Why not just do like Jesus did because the crowds was following him and did

Jesus say y 'all come on y 'all are great Jesus turned around and said hang on before you before you take off and want to want to chase after me

Realize this you got to give your life You got to lay your life down you got to take up your cross and you've got to follow me and to that doctrinal preaching gonna read a clip from this book the

Puritan On page 244 The statements made if through the unfaithfulness or ignorance of men

That teaching the gospel has has its cutting -edge smoothed down If such truths as Christ's finished work at Calvary together with the entire dependence of sinners upon him from poor salvation

Are not preached in the reliability of God's Word not fully declared

Then hope that the Holy Spirit will do his work is a terrible mistake He went on to say this it was doctrinal preaching again

Which resulted in the conversion of thousands in the early days and Methodism talking about the

Methodist movement And it was the same and I love this term It was the same heart acquaintance with theology which characterized all the leaders of the modern missionary movement

It was that heart acquaintance with theology theology has been made to be some cold dead separate thing right that just the

Intelligent Christians do if friend if it had been just for the intelligent Christians, I wouldn't be here

Because I can tell you I have been and am still yet a dummy however

And The Lord showed his grace And what the

Holy Spirit does in the heart of a person man woman boy or girl is beyond our imagination

And it will cause that he the Holy Spirit will cause the sinner who is regenerated and born again

To love him. He will create a hunger and a thirst for righteousness

Within that man woman boy or girl whom he saves That is unquenchable

The problem is we need to stop telling folks that they that they're saved that they've been born again that they just get up and walk away because they cried or because they prayed a prayer or because they got a

They got a wild hair where for a little bit they're going to try to get interested in religion If we stop telling them folks, that's okay, and we stand and we say hang on Have you been born again?

Because it's George Whitefield said if not, you must be born again You want to see the cake?

That's what Jesus told me Dina's if you want to see the kingdom of God You must be born again.

It's not a work of the flesh It's not by the will of man not by the will of the flesh not by them not by bloodline, but by the

Spirit of God and You can be certain that when the Spirit of God regenerate you you you won't be able to help

But chase after him. I mean literally pursue God because he's he's everything

And I want to break it down like this to kind of to summarize My thought process and listening you guys talk

So who hasn't who hasn't had a co -worker or a family member that's been struggling?

No matter what their struggle is poor financially Spiritually, whatever the case may be who hasn't had a co -worker or family member struggling but yet I can't meet with you tonight because I've got to Go fulfill my duties at this church program to go help the poor in our neighborhood

You missed that on the calling the life application calling of discipleship that we've just been talking about A Disciple of Christ will be doing exactly what you guys are talking about.

They will be doing it in their lives. Yeah That's good. That's good point.

Yeah You any thoughts? Yeah You know, this is a huge issue.

You know, my podcast is dedicated to ecclesiology. So I dedicate a couple episodes on the diaconate the elders and my concept my concept of discipleship

Discipleship culture in the church that that makes the church more of a greenhouse than than an armada and I'm actually writing the book on this and I actually have a chapter dedicated a little section dedicated on the concept of church

That is that built like an armada Versus a church that's actually has the culture of a greenhouse

And you know, I have you know, I've been to many many churches, you know transitioning to a new city

You know trying to find a new church is really hard. Actually, it's not as easy You know, I went to this one church, you know, it's conservative

You know I marked up all the boxes and I had a conversation with one of the one one of the elders

And I think the deacon was there and I asked him, you know, what's going on with your guys's you know

What what is your mission your what have you guys done lately? You know that Tina Turner quote?

What have you guys done lately? Around the neighborhood, you know, cuz

I Actually like their situation They're they're they're actually located in the neighborhood

Most churches are built like with the plot of land Located outside of neighborhoods.

I think right now we are seeing a transition from You know the mega church setting where it's just big people come to me kind of thing come to my church way over here and I think it needs to go back to where churches used to be in in the middle of neighborhoods

Anyways, and I I saw their unique situation where their churches was their church was built in the neighborhood

It looked like a name. It's a straight -up neighborhood Anyways, I was like, wow. I was as noted. I was driving to church.

I was like look at all these homes It's an amazing opportunity And I was like what

I'm excited to learn, you know, what you guys got And they said we've been here since 1982 and we have never reached our neighborhood and I was like,

I Didn't know how to respond to that. I was kind of like sad about that I was like not only shocked but like I was hurt.

I felt hurt out like You know, so anyways, I just noticed of how of How much discipleship does not even get done?

And I think I read a statistic by Barna or Pew Research saying that what less than 3 %

Like that less than 14 % it's like a low percentage of churches actually do disciple

And then when you look at the unchurch, there's a book by Barna called the unchurch and in that book in 2000

But 2014 he wrote it very relevant. He actually mentions that that the unchurch feel like that the church in America has

Has has not has nothing to offer to the world in a sense that that has contributed and with that being said it kind of contributed to The art that to the unchurch feeling like the church doesn't appeal to me to that.

Why should I go to church? if it if it doesn't appeal to me, it's not relevant for me and That's a very interesting thought because when you go back in history

To the past, you know to the medieval times and stuff like that. It's a very interesting thing what happened

The Roman Empire fell that's what happened Everything fell apart the world pretty much almost ended in a sense where everything just went away

You know the police the banks your money everything went away the army the known world was is was floating on the ocean

You know and then the last institution to stand was the church and What happened was that you had the monastery would come about This was the establishment of the monasteries now all of them were good, but there was a bunch of them

There was one of them. I would like to point out Was the the monastery at Iona it's a tiny little island off the coast of Scotland and It was founded

In a medieval time and when they went there Scotland was pagan. Okay.

It was pagan. So what do you do as a missionary? What do you do as an evangelist? When these guys are just trying to like hurt you, right?

So what do you? You go with the mindset to preach right not

You bring relevance meaning you are relevant meaning we're gonna we're gonna shape culture

We are gonna be the coder in this situation Meaning we're gonna publish we're gonna teach people how to write we're gonna teach people how to build architecture math reading literature you know

Agriculture making beer and selling it business entrepreneurship You know all these type of stuff these monks were not like Like like the

Desert Fathers by no means these guys were like world shapers world creators in a sense

Before you know and the whole world in the monastic the monastic movement was like whoa whoa

How in the world did you evangelize? the entire Scotland world that was impossible

He's like well we went there and we taught them how to read we taught them how to build homes so they can live

You know, we you know, we brought we brought culture We actually contributed to culture.

We were not just here praying and singing and then like, you know shouting people and and that that concept of the

You know, Iona created such a legacy of Shaping culture that they actually sent missionaries to the new world

Before Christopher Columbus ever came here if you go there's architecture in architecture archaeology and West Virginia in a cave in the middle of nowhere with like Hebrew writings all over the place and people, you know, the secular people from from the

University of West Virginia that are legitimate Archaeologists are like how in the world it is.

Did this Hebrew writing? of Psalms 23 You know come up in here, you know, and they're like It doesn't make that the only way it could make sense

Is that if you understand and acknowledge the powerhouse of Iona?

Making it as far as West Virginia before Christopher Columbus and preaching to the

To the natives, you know what I mean? So that that's what discipleship. That's what the church is supposed to be doing

That's what the church has done. That's just a little history. That's just one example of one

Christian community Changing like for example, Scotland Now Entry the church took a back seat when with the rise of liberalism and all that stuff in Darwin the church said

We're not gonna teach kids how to read and write the public school is gonna do that. The government is like well, we'll do it the church said

We're not gonna help the widow and poor in our neighborhoods anymore The government's like well, we we got that covered too.

I guess what else did the church was like We're just gonna take back seat and the government was like We'll do it do it.

So since the 20th century 19 19 20th century Government has gotten big and big big large part because of greed and all that stuff

But mostly because of what the church has not done the church North America has not been faithful with what

Abraham Kuyper said the cultural mandate Right, the Lord is the Lord of every molecule

Rebellious molecule on the whole universe where the Lordship salvation thing and Through a mandate making them making disciples of all nations including your own neighborhood

Right, including the widow the orphan teaching them how to read and write go up to any college and decide You know, like I have a friend that conscious

Street. She's like what nine years old my daughter has his new friend and They haven't been to church since Colgate and all this so, you know, my daughter's trying to reach out to her and As she comes to her house.

It's like she comes to a different country Because she's talking movies she's talking movies all day long

Disney Disney Plus blah blah blah blah blah Not to be like a

Like a Mennonite I do have Disney Plus, but I don't let my kids like 100 % on it

You know and I'm like Yeah You know, I always tell

I always tell her I don't let my daughter watch that one or we haven't watched that one you know to me, you know, you know to me cuz

I Parent I actually parent. Yeah So, what is your favorite book to read and she's like, um, you know and I'm like You don't like reading

I Know books have too much words So I'm like we are we are dealing with almost the same situation that the that the

The Christians had and I own up with it with the pagan Scotland Yeah, our culture is paganizing and they're dumbing down where they don't even know how to read

You know So this is a massive opportunity to turn this thing positive

Of discipleship is that this is a massive opportunity for the church, right? It only comes like every a thousand years where the entire culture is pagan and illiterate

So it's like a huge opportunity you know and this is why that is why this podcast exists and I and I believe that this is why all of your individual podcasts exist so that we can accomplish what

Jesse is is telling us and if you're watching this I would encourage you to rewind and listen to everything that Jesse just said because that was so encouraging and Jesse actually answered our last question and I want to tell you how he answered that question because it was fantastic And and I want you guys to elaborate

Before we end if you have anything else to say, but this is how we answer that question So our question comes from Matthew 28 18 through 20, which was brother

John already read for us But how do we how do we miss that where what are we missing in that how we messed up for so many years

With that verse and we can look at the SBC in my opinion and we want to call ourselves Great Commission Baptist But we get the

Great Commission wrong and we get it wrong exactly where John was telling us we got it wrong In our denomination we equate the

Great Commission with solely with Evangelism we're sharing the gospel and conversion and that's it.

Yeah, but the Great Commission is exactly what? Jesse was telling us it is

Matthew chapter 28 18 through 20 Listen to Jesse's explanation read those verses and that is what the

Great Commission is all about go ye into all the world And All authority has been given to me who has the authority

Jesus is King All the Lord has been given to me in heaven and we're on earth go therefore and make disciples of all the nations

That's right Jesus is Lord. Jesus is King over writing

I Just had a reading writing in written reading writing

He's Lord over math. He's Lord over science. He's Lord over every molecule. He's Lord over Business, he's

Lord politics He's Lord over everything Jesus is Lord over everything and just like Jesse was telling us that great example from Iona That is our opportunity right now is to regain this true understanding of the

Great Commission and go out and Proclaim that Jesus is King over every area of life the nations

He is Lord over everything and just like you said we we've we've

Handed it over. Yeah Secular culture we give Pharaoh the keys.

That's right. Now. We got mad when they drove truck somewhere. We didn't want him to drive it Exactly. We've got even the keys

We've got in the back of the truck and then we complain the whole time He is driving it whenever is our truck and it's our keys

One of the things that that you said Jesus is all power and the heaven and earth belongs to him, right?

All authority that means you don't have to ask the City Council members before you share the gospel on the street corner

Brother Ray Comfort said something one time I thought was fantastic It was on the borderline of being a fib, but you know what?

I'll give him grace in this area He was he was on the college campus as if y 'all followed

Ray Comfort's ministry you know how he does he goes on college campuses and he ministers at the individuals and uh And a guy comes up to him who's a security of some of some kind I don't know whether it was a city police officer if it was a campus security guard

I really don't know and he said who give you authority to come here Did you check in with anybody to get permission to do this?

He said the chief of police give me permission to do this chief of all the police and he said, okay

And he walked off. He said according to my scripture all power and all authority belongs to Christ And he did that means he didn't share it with anybody.

So if he says to do something I think about You know whenever Moses was leading the

Egyptians and he told me to take him to Canaan or whenever he told Abraham to get out of her

He didn't check with the Canaanites to see if it was okay if he give that land to his people

He said I've given you this. This is yours. Now you go take it He didn't go into God didn't go in or at least there's no record of him going in and checking with him and saying hey fellas you mind if I Go ahead and divide this up by lots.

I got 12 tribes coming through. I really need to give him a place to To live and put my tabernacle up No it was here to give and he told him to do it and to go on and to do what he told him to do and Not check with anybody else to see if it was okay

I think sometimes we need to be a little bit more bold in our in our We don't want to be arrogant

But we need to be a little bit more bold in our dealings to the church to realize that Jesus if we're doing what Jesus Told us to do

To not ask for permission and to not apologize for it. That's exactly right You want to make sure though with that if I could just piggyback on that?

Be in fellowship and partnership better word better word Be in partnership with your local church

For evangelism, yes, I mean because there's some people out there thinking that they're

Rambos Gunho Lone Rangers You want to be careful if people have those type of tendencies they want to go back to the local church

Submit authority of the church Glad you spoke up and said that because I was not insinuating in any way to strike out on your own and not to answer to anybody but You know,

I'm the I do the outreach or a large portion of it at my church and everything that we that we do

We do with the understanding that we carry our church's name with us. So we want to make sure that we

Have good reputation in the community, which we do minister in our community And we want to make sure that that everything we do is lawful now

When I say lawful, I mean lawful so long as it doesn't contradict what Christ has told us to do

If the coop if our governor Comrade Cooper would try to close the church down again

He can go jumping that river out John and get more satisfaction because the Bible has been pretty clear Yeah that we're to meet and we're to disciple and love one another and pray for one another and to teach one another all the ordinances that Christ has given us and I'm not going to take a

Governor's recommendation over over God's Commission Man First of all, if you're listening to this and if your church is still closed

Oh You may want to consider, you know Amen But no

Rambos, no, no Rambos it's all about What's a good

Western movie that that has a but like a group of People that are like like a gang a gang that do everything together because I'm not keen on all my

Western movies I watched a lot But if you guys have

Western movies movie references for me, let me know I'm at a loss

I'm watch pals. Oh, but there's none that I would recommend anybody go watch. That's the language would be bad

So we just leave that alone Yeah No, but the cup of Iona Rob, I really think you should do a concert a whole show how to build a modern

Iona Because that's where we're going. That's where we're at. That's where that's where the culture war is going to go

And it's gonna it's gonna collapse on itself Where it's gonna be like the Dark Ages 2 .0,

right? And the last institution Theoretically speaking is supposed to be the church the last one standing

So when the Federal Bank Reserve falls down the government goes bankrupt the the armies are dispersed

The the states are receding or succeeding or whatever you call that word and Texas becomes a gut, you know

It's on its own country Yeah, you know everybody was in separate ways and technically everything just collapses

There's a massive migration out of California because there's a you know, poverty and bankrupt

So you can only imagine this situation just like the minute just like what happened with the

Roman Empire it was just Gone and everybody, you know, I mean it was a disaster.

So what do you do? What do you do? The money you have it doesn't work You know your company the company you work for the companies you work for gone the army you like gone the police gone

What do you do with every institution the Starbucks you like gone You know

Marvel and company closed What do you do? The last institution is that's that's supposed to remain.

It's the church It's supposed to be the church so If it happens right within our lifetimes if that happens

We're gonna have to build an Iona we're gonna have to have that one ready Go ahead

I think a whole lot of times and I know everything you're saying is good and I like it I don't I've haven't studied

Iona or any of that I don't really have any basis to know what you're talking about other than what you've already shared with us but you know everything that Christ has taught us is

Hinged upon our complete and utter surrender to him in all things so whether that be

Governments whether that be finances army jobs homes states, whatever kind of government that falls ultimately, we're

We're a citizen of kingdom of heaven So while we're in this world and these things will affect us.

They shouldn't be things that we fear But if we're just doing what God's told us to do

These things will take care of themselves I mean, I really you know Jesus could have give us piles and piles and piles of examples on how we should prepare for some things

But he just said love the Lord love the Lord with everything that you've got and love your neighbor as much as you love yourself and A lot of all these things don't worry about him seek

King seek the kingdom of God and in his righteousness first And the things that you need will be supplied to you, you know

It's You know, it's taken out of context a lot of times by some people whenever they preach it

But I really think that that's whatever what? When God's walking around Galilee Nazareth fixing tables for people or plows or whatever a carpenter from Nazareth does before he starts a ministry for three and a half years with A bunch of roughneck fishermen and a few oddball tax collectors and a couple people that nobody else wants to talk her to Be Faithful be faithful be faithful and he'll be faithful to us and and Don't don't lose too much sleep about things.

You really can't control Amen Yeah, Jesse. I think you're I think you're spot -on and we'll definitely talk about that once we close this program out tonight

See see how we can tackle that So Claude I want to give you the last word and and if you will after you finish with your last word if you'll share

The gospel and John I'd like for you to when he finishes closes in prayer Not the best and last word that I can do is just quote the scripture

Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation To be of good cheer for I have overcome the world and this is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith and so that message

This podcast being on discipleship That coupled with what

I just said simply this There's nowhere else that you can turn

There's no program that you can go to There's no state of Zen that you can accomplish in and of yourself so that you will be right with God To the listener.

Your only hope is Jesus Christ Died for our sins according to the scripture

Christ was buried and on the third day Christ arose repent and believe the gospel

Amen amen Father we come to you in Jesus name Lord, I ask that you

To give legs to everything that's been said here tonight. God that it fall on ears to hear But what

I know that you've already worked all this out for your glory and for your honor Lord Lord, I pray that everything that is accomplished on the podcast whether listen to live or listen to down the road

It's done in a way that gives you glory because you're worthy of it You know what? I pray that it's done in a way that builds up the church

Because that's what you want Lord and I pray that it's always done in a way that if they be any loss they be drawn

To you out of the grace that's been preached in this place tonight Bless my brother's Lord keep them their families watch out for them

Lord in the times to come Keeps all by your grace We'll be careful to give you the praise and the glory and the honor for your worthy and you're alone over there

It's in Jesus name. I pray. Amen Amen, thank you guys for the conversation and thank you all for watching and I was always remember that Jesus is

King Go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.