Dead Men Walking Greg Moore, Jason Hamlin, & Paul Cox of RefToons Episode 10

Opening Banter and Show Introduction

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location, Dead Men Walking starts now. Well hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Dead Men Walking.

I'm your host Greg Moore, also with the co-host J-Dawg. What's up brother? What's going on Greg? We're in studio today and as always having a great time bringing you doctrine, theology, and all the fascinating things in between.

Guys thank you so much for subscribing on Apple and Spotify and podcast, you know all the podcasting places you can get us, we appreciate it. Thanks for the likes, thanks for checking out the merch cage at DeadMenWalkingPodcast .com.

Now I did say we're on Spotify, we're not gonna be getting that hundred million dollars a year that Joe Rogan just got, did you see that? What? He just said he's exclusively going to Spotify next year and they're going to, and they're gonna pay him a hundred million dollars between all the, and he's pulling all the stuff off YouTube, you can only get it on Spotify for the Rogan show starting next year.

So I don't know, I mean we didn't we didn't get into this to make any money, but who knows, ten years from now. Hey, Spotify. Come see me and Jay. Maybe we should put our phone numbers out there just to make sure they know how to get hold of us.

Right. I'm joking. But hey we got someone on the line that I'm so excited to talk to. He is the creator and owner of Reftunes, which you can find at Reftunes .com, Instagram at Reftunes. He lives in Wisconsin with his wife and four kids and he told me to say and his four chickens.

So that's good, we got a we got a rural guy. This is a cheese head on you. We have a cheese, uh oh. Now see we're from Michigan. No, no, no, that's what they call it. Is that good though? I think it's a good thing.

Is that a good thing? Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have to ask him when he gets, when he Michigan, Detroit Lions, Wisconsin, Green Bay. We don't have a great relationship. Not that we've ever beat them in anything really.

Nothing. Maybe a few times on Thanksgiving, but that's about it. But we have Paul Cox on the line. Paul, how are you doing, sir? I'm doing great. How are you guys? We are good. Thank you so much for taking time and being here.

We really wanted to sit down with you, but since we can't sit down with you since there's a couple states in between us, a call-in is a good enough for us. You know, I stumbled across Reftunes probably about two years ago, maybe a little less than that.

So I'm not really sure how long Reftunes has been around. You're going to tell us about that, but I feel like I got in late on the game because when I was telling other people about it, they go, oh yeah, Reftunes.

Yeah, I know what that is. I mean, I have a lot of people in my community that know what it is. Yeah. I just learned about it about two months ago. Yeah. So for people listening, why don't you give us a little bio on yourself, kind of a little bit about you.

We know you're in Wisconsin with your wife and four kids and four chickens, but give us a little bio and maybe a little bit of your testimony, how the Lord saved you.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a chief head, of course. Yeah. I'm married to Stephanie, who is actually from Michigan. There we go. All right. So I've got my feet in both worlds there.

Where at Michigan was she from? Oh, well, I used to work out of Waterford.

Oh, cool. Theology. I didn't, but I did. Okay. And it wasn't until we were into scripture, but I feel like, go ahead. So you had always been raised in church and then kind of sounds like you.

Had that pretty, I want to say normal, but pretty normal sanctification process where you dug in more, you kind of, like you said, got into sermons online and preaching and things like that,.

That exposited the word correctly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a Christian now.

Our listeners have heard me said many times, I said the sinner's prayer at seven and I got saved at 24. So, you know, I understand. I said the sinner's prayer about 17 ,000 times over and over because I didn't understand.

So did you, you grew up in Wisconsin then? Yes. Born and raised. Born and raised in Wisconsin. Which city? Janesville. Janesville. Yeah. I've been there. There is a sports bar right off the highway off of...

Jason's our internationally touring musician back in the day. Yeah, I used to tour. I used to tour back in the day. He's been everywhere. He's a walking Johnny Cash song. Yeah. Kenosha. I mean, we used to, yeah, we used to Milwaukee.

I mean, Green Bay, we were all over there. So yeah, I know all about Wisconsin. So my question was, you're living in Wisconsin,.

Your wife's from Michigan. How did you two meet? Those crazy free Methodist college parties.

Dancing six feet apart. You guys were social distancing before COVID. Actually, no dancing. There you go. Yeah. Leave room for the Holy Spirit.

After I graduated. Cool. So were you in post-secondary education for illustration?

For art in general. Art in general. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about how Reftunes came about, because like I said, widely popular with people that I didn't even think you'd be widely popular with.

I was talking to someone last week, because usually when you get into the Reformed movement as well, and into that theology, sometimes you kind of provide services or things for that community. And it doesn't really go outside of that.

And I've talked to all kinds of people, walks and denominations, and they go, yeah, we know what Reftunes are. I've got a buddy of mine just bought your Pilgrim's Progress coloring book for one of their kids, which that's next on my list to buy from you.

So tell me how that got started. And how long has Reftunes been around?

Reftunes and the Power of Illustrated Quotes

Well, since 2017. Oh, I'm not that late to the party then. I knew about it for about two years.

I've known about it for five years. You hipster. You're a hipster of the Reformed community. I knew about Paul before he was cool. I knew about Paul when he was at Spring Arbor. Before Reftunes was cool.

Before it was created. So 2017 is kind of a new company.

Yeah. And still learning these things, maybe reading at the time.

Well, that's one of the things that really drew me to it, is because since I was young, I love quotes. I have books of founding fathers, books of our doctrinal fathers, all these things. You're an early meme guy.

I was just going to say that. I feel like quotes were like the meme before memes. I mean, that's really what it is. You get a good solid quote and you can get a lot packed into just a few lines. One, you can read it quickly.

Two, it conveys a message to the reader very quickly. Now, I feel like quotes are so important. Obviously, reading things in full context is important too. But quotes are so important because people have such short attention spans.

And then when you add a colorful illustration that's done professionally and it creates a visual on top of the quote, I mean, those can be very powerful. Some of the stuff I see, Paul, on your Instagram feed, I just go, that has got to be so much more powerful to look at and read than someone just saying it or posting it on a Facebook thread where they're making an argument.

When you see it you see a likeness of someone who might've spoke it. And then on some of yours, you take a little liberty with what's going on in the background or what might've been happening at that time when that person said it.

I think it really brings it full circle to make a really sound doctrinal theological point. So you said 2017, this started. Are you doing this full-time or.

You have another job? Yeah, RepTunes is a project. Okay. Oh, very cool. So it sounds like you said you were turned on to reform theology,.

Wanted to take those talents and tell people about it. So it sounds like to me, you're the first person I've ever met that's actually monetized their cage stage. You actually said, I'm going to turn my cage stage into a business.

And it seems to be working for you. Oh, okay. Yeah. Those cartoons might've been a lot worse at the beginning, huh? Oh yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I recently saw your post on May 6th.

With a famous pastor with dreads. I saw that and I went, Oh, this is going to be pretty spot on. It was great. I loved it. But here's the thing. I think it's a special type of ministry because I think you can get across a point and when it's backed up with colorful imagery and cartoon like characters, but also, you know, really making a very deep point, an important point.

I think sometimes that can go, I actually know it does. It goes a lot farther than someone just saying so-and-so bad, so-and-so false teacher, so-and-so. I mean, because one, you're backing it up with historical quotes or historical language.

And then two, like I said, it's, it's beautifully illustrated and setting a tone. I think those are more effective in ministry than, like I said, either just text or just, you know, posting a quote alone, which like I said, really, really,.

Really drew me to your work. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Is it hard to not.

Put a Charles Spurgeon quote in everything?

So many good ones, man. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I think, I think I have, I think he's the one.

That I have the most of right now. Well, I mean, yeah, he's very quotable, the Prince of Preachers for a reason, right? The Vaati one was the, was, I think that was, yeah, the first one that I think I saw was the Vaati one.

Yeah. That was the first one that showed up in my feed anyway. Yeah. Which Vaati one? The one with two balloons, the modern church is producing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good one. Which for anyone listening right now I know you do this quite often.

Paul and I actually met because he was doing an Instagram live video of him actually drawing the, do you call them cartoons, comics, illustration? What's the right word I'm supposed to use? I just call them comics or cartoons.

Okay. So he was doing one live and showing you how, like digitally, how he's doing it. And I'm going to mess this up. My, my wife and my two daughters have, are unbelievable artists. Yeah. I mean, my you know, my oldest who's 10, she can freehand birds and horses and hands and all the stuff that's hard.

I can barely draw a circle. Okay. Now I'm a musician. I can play. I can play music a little bit, but I did not get, I don't know. That's, that's even debatable. So when I meet artists, I'm just in awe.

I'm like, I can barely draw a tic-tac-toe sign that looks straight. Let alone, you know, when I, when I watch you Paul live on Instagram doing it digitally, which I don't know, I feel like that would be so much harder, but it was just kind of cool to watch you go through the process.

So I would say anyone listening I, and I believe your handle on Instagram is at ref tunes, correct Paul? Yeah. Yeah. So jump on his Instagram account. Cause he has quite a following there. T O O N S. Yes.

T O O N S. Not like a loony tunes. Yeah. Yeah. Not like tunes. Yeah. Unless you're coming out with a sweet reformation album. Are you, Paul, is that your next step? Word up. Right. Uh, so yeah, jump on there and you do, do you do those, uh, live Instagrams pretty often?

Cause I think I've caught one or two of them now. Yeah. We're.

Trying to do them like every Monday night at 8 PM central. Yeah. They go on. Okay. So they can.

Get you everywhere. Yep. So let me ask you one more question about the creation of rough tunes. Cause I also, um, I also host a entrepreneurship radio program and I love talking to people who either start a business or find a niche market and run with that because it's so interesting.

Most of the time it's because it's out of necessity or they see a need and they fill the market. So like you said, you wanted to use your gifts. You were passionate about, you know, uh, reform theology and obviously quotes and things that a church father had spoken about.

So you took that idea and you just said, Hey, look at, I'm an illustrator. I'm going to do this. What was your, I mean, were you just posting on social media or did you go, I'm going to have a website.

With products or what was the very first steps in that? Okay. So did you get a pretty good response.

Right from the beginning or is this something that has grown over the last few months or years or right? So let's, let's change gears a little bit. Um, as we, uh, as we head down the line here, what, why don't you talk a little bit about, cause we love asking our guests that come on that are, that are in that reformed community.

What were some of the things that it sounded like you said you were free Methodist in college? What were some of the things that, that brought you towards,.

Uh, reformed theology that moved you into that camp? Right. I didn't think anyone would do anything they don't want to do. Sure. Yeah, sure. And I had no, I had no idea. And wait,.

Yeah, once, once, once that lens is, uh, put on or the, the veil taken off, however, whatever analogy you want to use, it's hard to see it the other way. And you are, you and I are very similar in the fact that I had the same thing where just things weren't explained.

Uh, we don't believe in that. So we're not going to talk about it. This is the way it is. And if you're a curious person and you want to actually dig into the word of God, um, you're eventually going to find out what those things mean and why, and why they are.

I find it very telling that Jason and I ask a lot of people that same question. And I think we had two or three say the exact same answer. Well, I just started reading the Bible. That's how I became reformed.

I actually read the scriptures, I actually read the scriptures instead of listening to my tradition or someone else tell me I actually got in and read the scriptures. And then I went, Oh, this, this makes sense.

This is what the Bible says because I wrestled with it for, Oh geez. I mean, in my early twenties, uh, I wrestled with it until maybe 31. So almost eight, eight or nine years of, I was taught, you know, I grew up in a legalistic church, but then assembly is a God type Pentecostal.

And then a church that kind of got into NAR a little bit. Um, and so then, you know, I was struggling against, well, Oh geez, the Calvinist word, uh, is bad and reformed is bad. And, and then actually reading the word of God went, Oh, that's just what the Bible says.

You know, I really even hate that. You know, my wife and I argue about this. We, we even hate using the label reformed. It's like, we just believe in the Bible. Um, you know, so it's like, you have to qualify it the last time.

Yeah. You got to qualify what that means. You believe in the Bible, but, uh, yeah, you might be saying that from a, a new apostolic reformation Mormon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, Oh yeah. We believe in the Bible.

Just very generic. And then you have to define it. Absolutely. But it's so good to see guys like you doing stuff like this that do, like I said, it, yeah, of course it caters to the reformed community, but these are, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if you are or not.

I mean, these are great illustrations with very powerful quotes. Um, you know, very powerful. I think there's scripture and you do scripture in some of them too. Right. I think I thought I saw. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And.

Right. Yeah. But I think a lot different guys in there and you have so many great,.

Great ones to pull from. Even if you wanted to stay in that lane. I tell people all the time I grew up hearing of all these names. I, you know, I was homeschooled when I grew up and, uh, from third to 10th grade.

And I heard names like Jonathan Edwards and John Bunyan and John Newton, and we read a, uh, you know, a Matthew Henry commentary in our church. And then I get older and I go and I, we listened to Charles Spurgeon and, but no one ever told me, Oh yeah, their theology is reformed.

And I went, Oh my gosh, like half the early church fathers, half the, you know, our founding fathers and throughout history, um, are actually have this, the, the systematic theology that I haven't even been introduced to.

And it was kind of funny because I was putting them, you know, prioritizing them as a young Christian of ones I really looked to and listened to. And then they end up being in that same, you know, I didn't even know that I was categorizing them into kind of a theology and then, uh, you know, get a name put to it in my mid twenties.

So, yeah. Did you have any other questions for, uh, Paul here before we let them go? Uh, you know, I was wondering how long does it usually take you to draw these up? I mean, is this a five minute process?

Is this a, uh, three day process? Like what, I mean, what's the plan? He's going to tell us an egg. So he goes, it takes me four and a half eggs to make one. It's four chickens. He's like, Hey, I draw it at the Italian restaurants, um, on the napkins,.

You know, with the crayons. Yeah. That's all. And I typically do. Oh, gotcha. Okay. So.

In, do you come up with a conception of like the place and where it's going to be and kind of what's in the background, like the one that Jason just brought up with our, uh, with our dreadlocked friend.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, Mr. White. So you, you had stuff like kind of going on in the background and you've got a scene and a tent and you know, some other things. I mean, is that just stuff that you're just kind of conceptualize?

And, um, I'm guessing with digital, with, with digital sketching too, you can kind of, you know, delete and move and you just kind of play around with it.

Yeah. With that particular charlatan and come, right. Right. Uh, at Rudy's thing and sure. Elixirs and yeah. He'll oil sale. Yeah. And so I just kind of,.

We can use his name. That's okay. I don't know why. I don't know why we never pull our punches any other time. Usually we don't, you know, Todd, Todd White, you can use it. I wanted to bring it. No, that was, that was a great juxtaposition to taking a quote.

That's literally whatever, 150 years old or so, at least a few lines, a few lines in it. And it's, you know, it's powerful. It's talking about something current. Right. Yeah. I just actually put up the, uh, Octavius Winslow, um, drawing that you had on my Facebook banner and people love it.

Yeah. They love it. He's like, that'll be $9. Right, right. I know. Right. I'm definitely trying to get you to get your name out there and ref too. Yeah. Which speaking of yeah. What kind of stuff can, uh, if people want to support you or they like the products, what kind of stuff can they get on the website at what is it?

Reftunes .com.

Yeah. Reftunes .com. You can click on the one available in paperback. Sweet. Other than that, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Oh no. I was just going to say, other than that, I have the, no, I was just going to ask Paul, um, uh, how are,.

How do kids receive these, these drawings? I mean, with, with these quotes, I mean, do they, they seem to understand them or, you know, like, I mean, is that part of your demograph or.

I get in their kids about each person and the kids are talking about these characters, wanting the patient they had done in for their. Oh, that's cool. That is awesome.

Yeah. We have a group of about 25 families in my community that are all believers and we all homeschool. And this was something I sent out to their Facebook page. I said, look at you guys, we need to get some of these order them, get our kids coloring them or looking through them.

My, my family, my kids are 10, eight and five, and we're a huge pilgrims progress family, of course. Uh, so I would, I would encourage any of the listeners, uh, whether you're homeschool or not, or you just have young ones, um, or if you just want something for your office, that book, uh, that you have going from 2017 to 2019, that's kind of neat too, because then you have essentially two years worth of cool quotes that are illustrated, you know, even if you just buy it as a quote book, which like I said, I'm obsessed with, anyway, I'm going to have to get one of those just so I have some really cool quotes, all condensed.

How, how many pages in that? How many illustrations in a two year period.

Does someone get if they purchase? Uh, I think there's about, I think there might be about 74 or 75 illustrations in there. Um, but it's like 80 some pages. That's great. Awesome.

Well, Paul, did you have anything else for us before we let you go? I don't think so. Paul, thank you so much for being here. And as always, we appreciate you as a brother in the Lord. We thank you for coming on and taking your time to explain a little bit about your, um, you know, how the Lord saved you, your ministry, your website.

And we do appreciate you being here. Anyone listening, be sure to check out Paul at ref tunes. That's R E F T O O N S correct on Instagram. He said he's on Facebook, YouTube, all over the place. And then www .reftunes .com for his website where you can get all kinds of cool stuff there.

Paul, thanks so much for being here.

And hopefully we'll have you on again. Awesome. Thanks for having me. All right, Paul, have a.

Good day. Bye. The dead men walking podcast is sponsored by Greg Moore at informed solutions realty with over 50 ,000 residential commercial and property valuation transactions completed. Informed solutions. Realty is your premier real estate brokerage in Michigan, whether you're buying or selling a home or business, Greg Moore at informed solutions, realty can help you.

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And now back to dead men walking. Well, that was cool. That was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, so I guess I wasn't late to the game two years. I thought he had been doing it for about four or five years before that.

So really this is a newer business. I mean, three, three years, 2017, he said, did you catch his age? I didn't. I, I didn't. I, I don't know. Maybe he was around our age. Maybe, maybe, Paul, if you're listening, we'll just put you, we'll say you're 25, even if you're 45.

You sounded young. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think so. But most of the time when, cause if you're watching him on Instagram live, you just seeing the hand. I don't know. I was like, how many wrinkles are on that hand?

I wonder how old that guy is now. But it's so true what I was saying. It's, it's so nice to have a visual aid to the quotes. Oh man. Especially the way he sets them up. I mean, I don't know. Have you seen the grave one?

Which one? You have to explain dying, dying to pride, dying to, Oh yeah, that one, man, that was a powerful one, right? I mean, he's, he's got quite a few that, I mean, just like you just said, I mean, it takes no explanation of the entire thing.

And he has a quote that might be two sentences, but you know, the way he illustrates it, he really explains it well with his illustration. It's yeah. Some really cool stuff. So what's going on new with you, man?

We've got a few more minutes left on the podcast. We'll just, uh, we could, you got anything new going on in your life? Let's see here. Well, the baby's doing our baby's doing well. Emsley Jane still doing awesome.

Um, she is going into the phase where she's starting to wake up a little bit more during the night. Um, uh, you know, but, uh, but you know, whatever, we're, we're not working right now and not sure if we're going back this week or not.

Um, I'm hearing there's more cases of the Rona. Um, I heard it going around. I heard it's going through the plants. Yeah. They shut down. I, I heard anyway, I don't, I can't confirm or deny this, but, um, they shut down Dearborn, um, the other day, which is huge.

That's the biggest plant. That's the biggest moneymaker for Ford motor company. Yeah. It is a F one 50. Um, I mean, they shut that down. That's pretty serious. You're down. No, we would not. Cause I mean, but the Mustang, um, I'm pretty sure the Mustang is only 4 of the sales of Ford motor company as a whole.

Oh really? So yeah, it's, it's a very small percentage. It'd be more than that. Yeah. It's I mean, I know their trucks are, Oh yeah. I mean, is there a moneymaker? I mean, that's, that's gotta be at least 50 to 50 or so percent of the sales.

But, uh, what's going on with all the COVID in the plants? Because out of the 400 cases we have in this County, over half of them are from DTE employees at their plant. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know.

I mean, they're what they're, what they're planning on doing. Um, when you walk in, you're getting scanned or taking your temperature. Right. Um, and then, you know, if you're okay to go, I tell you to go ahead and go into work.

Um, uh, but maybe with it being, isn't it dormant in your body? Like it, it doesn't show if you catch it today, a lot of people, like it doesn't show, but you can still transfer, right. The you're still have a contagious period of 10 to 14 days when you're not symptomatic.

Right. So, you know, and at a plant, um, you know, you're either working by yourself in a 20 foot area. Sometimes you're right up on somebody. Right. Oh, that's true. You're right next to someone, maybe you're crossing paths sometimes, or you're in the same area, you know, somebody is working on the right side of the car while you're working on the left side of the car.

And then maybe somebody is in the back of the car. So, you know, Mustang isn't that big. So, you know, it's like, I feel like those don't, those guys wear masks anyway, though. No gloves or no, we don't have to wear gloves or masks.

They do give us a mask now. Yeah. But now I'm pretty sure you will have to wear gloves and you know, of course the mask. Um, uh, but yeah, but I don't know. I'm hearing a lot of different stuff about the mask.

Have you heard the CDC, um, came out with, uh, something else saying that we shouldn't even have to wear a mask. Yeah. They were against it then for it now against it again. Yeah. Yeah. Which I mean, doctors have been saying that for years and years.

I mean, you don't wear a mask to prevent it if you're healthy. Right. Yeah. And I mean, imagine getting on a plane in a tube. I won't do it. It feels like it's strangling my chin and my face. I can't do it, man.

And then it's all wet and moist in there with us. I mean, we got this, these big old beards. So it's like, you know, it doesn't even really, yeah, it doesn't really go over our nose or mouth, you know?

And then you see people that don't have their, their face mask over their nose. Yeah. It's like, okay. You're breathing out of your nose. Yeah. Yeah. I saw one lady and she had a hole cut right in the middle of her mask.

So she can talk and she was totally serious. She's like, oh, it makes me, you know, it's bothers my mouth. So I just cut a hole in it. And I'm like, well then why yet? Well, there is a company out there.

I guess they're coming out with the, uh, they're putting plastic, uh, see-through, um, in the middle of the mass. So you can see them, your mouth. Why do I want to watch someone's lips move? Right. Well, yeah.

And that, you know, somebody, you know, with bad hearing or something, maybe they can, you know, read lips or something, but yeah, I don't know. Make kissy faces. Shame on me. Just thinking of myself.

What do I need that for? There's people out there that, yeah. Well, Greg. Yeah. Um, yeah, no man. Um, but yeah, there's, there's a lot going on out there right now. How was, uh, I was going to ask you about the housing market.

Yeah. It's going on with that. Uh, for me, uh, for anyone listening, I'm a real estate broker. Uh, it's like we paused for two months. Okay. And then just jumped right back in the deep end. I mean, our sales.

Nope. Home values are actually up a little bit serious. Uh, I was actually doing business through the, through even through the shutdown, there was some things I could do. Uh, and I haven't seen any, any indication.

Now here's the two months. Isn't a whole, isn't a big chunk of time to see how it, you know, two or three months, you know, six months from now, a year from now when people either a can't go back to work or lose jobs over this.

I mean, that's going to affect lending and being able to purchase their purchase power. So I'm predicting we'll probably see something next spring. We'll probably have a drop off in that busy season. But as from March 13th, you couldn't work to March 7th here in Michigan.

You could work. No, I just jumped right back into it. I got two closings the end of this month and another one first week of June. That's awesome. And I'm showing houses all day yesterday. Yeah. So I mean, cause you keep, I mean, I keep seeing things about the housing market going down or, or maybe the, uh, the percentage that you're borrowing, you know, uh, I mean the person, the house housing rates are going down or with like what prices are.

Yeah. Well, the, uh, percentage that you're borrowing, um, or maybe even interest rates. Are they, are they going down or are they going up? I mean, interest rates are down, man. They're rock bottom. I mean, all my lenders are working around the clocks.

They're refis alone. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm refining mine just to refighting and three, 3 on a, you know, I'm gonna take it from a 30 to a 15 year. No, you probably do. Honestly. And I mean, you come from a family of, uh, realtors, they can hook you up.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Uh, so interest rates are low too, which is driving a lot of this. Yeah. Uh, even, even the refis are real busy for a lot of the lenders that are, you know, even if they bought a house two years ago and they're at four and a half percent, well now they can be at 3 .1%.

No, I mean, that's a big difference. Yeah. So, but yeah, thankfully I'm blessed to be in an industry that wasn't affected too hard. Uh, but I talked to a lot of people that this is a very difficult time, especially if they're a business owner or if they, you know, if they work a straight 40 somewhere or work overtime.

Um, it's so funny. It's not funny. It's the blessing in favor of the Lord, I'd say. But, uh, my sister who is a flight attendant, uh, was still working full time because she was kind of lower rung on the, on the, uh, uh, seniority.

Gotcha. So, so she got to work. They, they were still working her because, uh, higher seniority didn't. Yeah. Well higher seniority, you got to pay more. Uh, so she's still working, but then she has a whole side business that has just exploded as a personal trainer.

I mean, exploded. You would shake your head at the client. I mean, I think she had 170 new clients. Ridiculous in person, online, you know, all this. So she's, so she's doing fine there. My brother works for a, you know, he's a line line manager for a places that make boxes.

Uh, so yeah, they need, they make all the Amazon boxes. Everyone's shipping, buying the stuff online. He's working double time the whole time. You know, I wasn't affected that bad, uh, here in real estate because in real estate you're used to getting paid every few months anyway.

Right. Right. So it was this kind of this cool thing where all of us who are all believers and you know, you're doing all right. I know you're doing your thing, your side hustles that you got going on.