Virtuous Liberty with Andrew Sandlin

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00:03

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

00:10

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

00:17

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

00:23

So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me!

00:30

Yes! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

00:40

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:47

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

00:53

Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

01:00

That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:09

Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move your heart so you will never be the same again.

01:24

Behold my servant whom I uphold. My chosen and whom my soul delights.

01:30

I have put my spirit upon him. He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street.

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A bruised reed he will not break. And a faintly burning wick he will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth justice.

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He will not grow faint or be discouraged. Till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands await for his law.

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That would be Isaiah 42, 1 -4. One of my favorite passages.

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I'll explain why I chose that one here shortly as we get into this conversation. What's up, everyone?

02:06

Welcome back to another episode of Apology Air Radio. Got a fun show today. This could be a little bit more intimate.

02:12

It's just myself and a special guest who I'll introduce in a minute. Pastor Jeff and Zach Conover are on their way to Iowa right now.

02:23

For our bill that we're... It's our bill. It's an abortion bill in Iowa.

02:29

We're very excited about that. Equal protection bill. Busy season right now.

02:35

Just getting started in legislative season. We've got bills all over the place. And meetings and everything. All kinds of crazy stuff going on.

02:42

Please pray for us. We need your prayers and support. We've got a lot of travel. A lot of moving parts and pieces.

02:49

And a lot of cowardice legislators we're trying to whip into shape.

02:55

So be praying for those bills. And ask God that we would be able to end abortion in one of these states. It would be amazing.

03:01

I'll go quickly here because our guest doesn't have a lot of time. As always, I want to thank Ion Layer. I got my patch on today.

03:10

My NAD patch. You can go to ionlayer .com. Put an apology in the coupon code.

03:15

And get a sweet discount for that. And before I get to the other stuff. I've got to mention this right here.

03:24

So we had our man camp this weekend. And if you guys have been listening to us. You know that we're partnering with Amtech Blades.

03:32

And Bill Rapier. He came and led our man camp this weekend. And it was incredible.

03:40

Did some amazing teaching. And did a little combat. Combat fighting training.

03:46

For our guys the last night. But I've got to show you guys this. You can get this at amtechblades .com.

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Which by the way, if you go and put apology in the coupon code. You get 5 % off. And what's so amazing. I love

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Bill so much. He's such a good brother. He's also going to give 5 % to end abortion now.

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On top of that. Look at this. He gave us this battle axe.

04:10

Which you can now purchase. Now available at amtechblades .com I'm going to tell you something.

04:17

This thing is crazy sharp. I know. Because I cut myself. This tip right here.

04:24

I just bumped it and it cut my finger. I was gushing everywhere. This thing is amazing guys. This is one of the coolest kits

04:31

I've ever seen. And you guys can't see it. But for the serial number. How cool is that.

04:38

So you can go to Amtech Blades. Get one of their knives. Their knives are amazing. Bill knows what he's doing.

04:45

He's a 20 year Navy SEAL. Most of that was DevGuru. The guy is amazing.

04:52

He's an amazing brother. I just wanted to show you guys that. And brag on that a little bit. This is going to go up in the studio.

04:58

When we move and get a new set. This will be displayed in the set. All that to say.

05:05

My guest is patiently waiting. One of my favorite dudes in the world. I mean that.

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Andrew Sandlin. What's going on brother? It's great to hear you say that. You're one of my favorite dudes too.

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Thank God you're in the ministry. And doing a great work for Apology. I appreciate you guys so much. I appreciate you and your dear wife.

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And your children. And all you're up to there. Glad we can talk again today. Ditto.

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I feel the same about you and your lovely wife and children. Even though I haven't met your children. They look amazing on Facebook.

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Everybody looks amazing on Facebook. That's true. Let's just get right into it.

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We've had Andrew on a lot. He's probably one of our most. Been on here probably the most.

05:52

I can't even talk. So you know what I'm trying to say. I got to think of an official title for that. I need to think of some snappy title.

05:59

Most popular guest. On Apology Radio or something. Andrew's been so good to us.

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He's been a good brother and mentor to us. And we just love him a ton. But we're going to have him.

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We have him on today to talk about his new book. Virtuous Liberty. Which I have a copy right here. And by the way. I love this cover.

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I'll just be honest. Of all the books I have of yours. This is by far my favorite cover. Well thanks for saying that.

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I'll tell the designer that. It's really cool. I didn't get to read it.

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I asked him to send me the PDF so I could listen to it. Because I wanted to make sure I was able to get through it. Before we had him on. But I just finished listening to it the other day.

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It's fantastic. Which by the way. I noticed your website. You updated your website as well.

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It looks awesome. It looks really really sharp. You can find him at ChristianCulture .com

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Hey look here's Pastor Zach bringing me my coffee. Hey Zach. Hey brother good to see you.

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Man you're just as good looking as last time. Careful don't cut yourself. Ok so let me tell you something.

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So Zach just asked me. So I'm going to mention this again. So this is how sharp this thing is. Zach was like.

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I wonder if I can. And he like shaved the hair off his arm. And there was like a hamster on the blade.

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There was so much hair. Just clean shaven. It's very sharp. Anyways.

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ChristianCulture .com We're going to talk about that very thing today. Which happens to be the name of your website.

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But yeah. Anyways I just wanted to mention that. The website looks great. Ok so. Let's just get right into it brother.

07:38

Tell me about this book. Why you wrote it. It's purpose and we'll just go from there. Well let's start with the title.

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Virtuous Liberty. I mean one of the real issues. Historically Luke.

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And this is true of unbelievers and unbelievers. Is how can you have a society. That permits.

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At least a degree of liberty. That doesn't turn into license. And anarchy. And on the other hand if you impose law.

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Or requirements. How do you prevent that from turning into a dictatorship. Of course there were a lot of dictatorships.

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In fact historically. Liberty wasn't all that popular. Historically. Until basically the reformation.

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Of the late medieval period. So what I'm trying to set forth in here. Is a biblical idea.

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Of politics. And the idea of the kind of society. That under the new covenant.

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Carrying of course forth truth. From the old covenant. We need to have today.

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A distinctively Christian approach to politics. And particularly the kind of society we have. And I'd say it's characterized by virtuous liberty.

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So the question is. How do you have virtue. Which God requires. And on the other hand.

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How do you have liberty. Well you can't on the one hand support anarchy. Or secular libertarianism.

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Abortion is okay. Homosexuality is okay. Just do whatever you want as long as you don't harm anybody else. That's not according to God's law.

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But neither is the idea. Of a centralized political power. That imposes. All sorts of moral requirements on everybody.

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I think a lot of people. That don't understand God's law. Properly don't understand it in the bible. Most sins are not crimes.

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Murder is a crime. And therefore including murder of pre -born children. By the way. There are a number of crimes.

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Specifically laid out. That the bible recognized are punishable by the state. But there are a lot fewer than the crimes we have today.

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Many, many fewer in fact. So a part of the issue here. Is how. Let's take quickly first the left.

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Has bought into much of the left. Cultural Marxism. And basically imposed a secular law base.

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A secular law base. Such that for example. If you're a parent. You have a child that gets from a secular public school teacher.

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The idea that he's a boy. He really is a girl. And he needs an operation to alter his genitals.

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To be a girl. That if you as a parent object to that. You could be fined. Or perhaps even in some cases.

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You could go to jail. That's a secular law base. That's the imposition of a morality. I mean we know it's an immorality.

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But it's their morality. But then there's the problem even on the right. And that problem has really come to the fore.

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As you and I were talking earlier Luke. With Christian nationalism. The problem with Christian nationalism.

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Is not that it's Christian. We support that wholly. Entirely. The problem is not that we need

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Christian nations. Of course. Many of us have been arguing for that for a long time. But Christian nationalism is not just about Christian nations.

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It's about a particular imposition. Of a political idea. Apart from biblical law.

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It's based on so called natural law. That has some very bad overtones. So this book was basically.

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An attempt to deal with both of these problems. And not just negatively. But positively set forth the basic idea.

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Of what a. A distinctively Christian society. Should look like. Wow. That was a great synopsis.

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Thank you. You just said so many things. That I just wanted to. Grab a trail off of.

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But I got to say focus. Because that was just loaded with really great points. I'm just trying to.

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I'll think through. I want to think through kind of order of the book. That I think would be helpful. So. I appreciate.

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So many people. When we hear the word liberal. We think of the left.

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But that's. Historically speaking. That's not actually. That's another word they've copped and stolen.

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So I appreciate it. Because it was very eye opening for me. And I learned a lot. I like how you kind of laid out.

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This is what actual. Historical. Liberalism looked like.

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And so. I think you called it Christian liberalism. If I remember correctly. So could you for our listeners.

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Explain that and what that means. What that looks like. And why it's different from liberalism today. Sure. We don't even hear much about liberalism today.

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Back when I was younger. I mean George McGovern. Some of you may have heard about him. And even

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Bill Clinton. Though things were changing at that time. Would have been known as liberal. But they don't really want to be known as that today.

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They want to be known as the P word. No not preposterous. But progressive. Nancy Pelosi. I want to be progressive.

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Everybody wants to be progressive. They're not using the term liberal anymore. I'm glad they aren't. Because historically.

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Liberalism is just good conservatism. And conservatism is not identical.

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To biblical truth. Though conservatives often generally are much closer. To biblical truth.

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But liberalism is basically. Classical Christian influence. Liberalism is basically.

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The Protestant idea that grew out of England. And separation of powers. And due process.

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And treating all people equally under the law. These basically Old Testament truths. That were imbibed by Protestants.

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And really led to the founding of the U .S. The U .S. Was founded as a classically liberal society.

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Influenced by Christianity. Now notice I'm not saying that all the founders were Christians. They absolutely were not.

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Jefferson was not. Franklin was not. Some of them were. But all of them were influenced by basically

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Protestant Christianity. And that helped shape their view of a society. That was to be stressed both liberty.

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And virtue. It's amazing. You see all these quotations from the founders. That this society was made for a moral people.

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Or this society was only made for a Christian. Or a Christian influenced people. This government only works.

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If you have a moral society. And by moral they meant influenced by Christian truth.

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Certainly not Islamic or Hindu truth. But it was based in law. And by law they meant the moral law of God.

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Some of them believed in so called natural law. Which I'm not a fan of. But even that was shaped by their view of the

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Bible. And biblical law. So when I use liberalism in that good sense. I'm not speaking about a large state.

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Those early liberals by the way. Believed in a very small state. They were always putting limits on the state.

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And that's what actually the Bible does. But in saying that. People say you don't really believe that God's law should govern.

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I absolutely do. And they did also. I'm not saying they were all card carrying theonomists.

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I'm just saying they did believe in the authority of God's law. In society. So this is the goal. In a fallen world

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Luke. You can never have a perfect society. Everybody that tries to create a perfect society. Ends up creating hell on earth.

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Like Lenin and Stalin and Pol Pot. But we can have the best possible society. And we get many of our basic ideas.

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From ancient Israel. The theocracy. And no I'm not saying that it is like the church. And today in every point it's not identical.

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No one would argue for that. But nonetheless there are certain basic truths. That we derive from that.

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And so when I say liberalism. I mean a pro liberty society. Within the balance of God's moral law.

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We've lost that both on the left. By the progressives today. And sadly even some on the right.

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And that has come about. Because people have seen drag queen story. Our terrible reprehensible evil.

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Things going on in our culture. What's going on with LGBT and trans. And all of this gender affirmation surgery.

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Oh let's capture the power of the national state. And let's immediately squash all this.

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Well that has a good. I mean I entirely understand that. And that's a good motive. But I don't think they understand.

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That once the state becomes that powerful. Then what happens when somebody else. Gets the power of the state.

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And wants to crush Christians. So this is why we believe in decentralized political power. Let's put it this way.

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Of all of the governments. And there's political governments. The national government should probably have overall.

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The least amount of things to do. And overall the least power. Then you should have states rights. And they should have counties.

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And they should have municipalities or cities. All of these are separate jurisdictions. And actually the ones that should be responsible.

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For these moral issues. Like suppressing and getting rid of. Drag queen story hours. The way it has been historically.

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Local communities. They're the ones that define pornography. They're the ones that define what should be going on. So we don't have to nationalize everything.

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It looks good when you say. Let's just get the state involved. Isn't that remarkable Luke. That when all sorts of things happen in society.

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Climate change. The progressives say. Oh we must get the state involved. We must get the national government involved.

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And Christians say. Oh no the state is too big. But if you mention something that we oppose. People immediately

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Christians say. Oh we must get the national government involved. No let's decentralize everything.

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And do things on a local. And county and state level. So that's part of what this book is about.

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I appreciate that a ton. Man there's so many. I'm just trying to keep all my. I have so many thoughts swirling around.

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I want to keep them all organized. I love the fact that. An argument you've made.

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We're going to get into Christian nationalism in a minute. For the record.

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I've adopted Andrew's view on this. When this first popped up.

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The whole Christian nationalism debate. This last year basically. When it kind of caught on fire.

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We kind of were like. Hey. I don't know. I don't have a position on this.

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We're going to look into this. There's a lot of people pressuring us to take a position. And we just said.

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Hey this is where we're going to critique. Where we see stuff wrong. And then I heard Andrew. I heard

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Andrew's explanation of this conversation. And I was like. That's it. That's my position. Which we'll get into.

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I love how you've emphasized that. You said it a couple times already. I would say our view is that.

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We have the smallest. You just said the smallest view of the civil realm. Of the civil government.

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And I love. You said it in the intro earlier. For a theocracy.

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Or someone that wants to implement God's law. Into society. People. You know this.

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You've been doing this a lot longer than I have. People want to complain and say. There's all those laws. I don't want all those laws. And you're like.

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Dude. That's just a fraction of what we have to deal with now. God's law.

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Is so much smaller. Than all the laws we deal with now. On a regular basis. And people just don't understand that.

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And the other thing I want to mention real quickly. You mentioned again. I think in your introduction earlier.

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Christians. We've encountered this a lot. Christians seem to have a major problem.

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With conflating sin and crimes. Or either conflating.

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Or just not understanding. How they work together. And how some sins are crimes. But not all sins are crimes.

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We've had that conversation a lot. But it's really important. Because a lot of people especially. They kind of want to come after our position and critique.

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What we're saying. Is they just don't understand. How those work together. So I would love to hear.

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Your take on that real quick. Yeah. I think part of the problem.

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Is that people don't understand. What Rustuni called the biblical doctrine of government. We hear the term government today.

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And we think. Oh well. Sacramento in my case. Or whatever.

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Particularly Washington D .C. But in the Bible. The main government is self -government. Under God's authority.

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And of course family government. The husband and wife and the children. And of course church government. Elders and so on.

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But actually there are other governments. There are like business governments. And you can even say architectural. Every educational institution has a government.

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All of these are governments. That's the way God does things. And then one government among all these.

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Is political government. Well these governments. All are required by God. To enforce

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God's law. And that's why sphere of sovereignty is important. Each of these has a different sphere.

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Now the responsibility of the state. And this is so important for people to understand. The responsibility of the state.

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Is not to make people good. Or good Christians. People say well we want a Christian state. So that we can make people good

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Christians. Well there is a problem with that. And that's not the state's job. The state's job is to enforce the law of God.

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Appropriate to its sphere. It's the responsibility of of course the church. And the family to make good

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Christians. Now of course I'm speaking in a general sense. Only the Holy Spirit can. I'm a Calvinist. But I'm talking about speaking the truth.

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And preaching the gospel and so on. The responsibility of the state. Is not to preach the gospel. The responsibility of the state.

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Is to suppress certain external evil. According to God's law. That's what Romans 13 clearly implies.

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That's why it uses the term in English terror. A lot of people don't understand. The state is a legitimate terrorist.

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It is God's legitimate terrorist. And that's why it must be chained. It must be chained down.

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So basically in the Christian idea. The biblical idea. The state will suppress murder.

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And rape. And incest. And homosexuals running around.

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In drag dress. And all of these other external acts.

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Of coercion and evil. The state will suppress that. That doesn't mean that we believe.

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That every single law in the Old Testament. Carries over to the New Testament. But the basic idea of law in the

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Old Testament. Certainly does. So the state is to suppress. Certain specific external acts of evil.

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It's not to make people good. We have a name. For societies, states.

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Political orders that try to make people good. They're called dictatorships. I mean that's what Mussolini wanted to do.

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Hitler wanted to make a good Aryan state. And Stalin wanted to make a good Marxist state.

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So that people didn't want anybody else's property. And would permit to share.

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All that they worked hard for. With everybody else. That was their morality. So that's not the

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Christian view. The Christian view is to suppress. Certain specific external crimes. And that's like you say.

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Many, many, many fewer. Than the state does today. So we don't want a big Christian state.

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That expression big Christian state. Really is a contradiction of terms. We want a small.

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Narrow Christian state. That is bound to the word of God. In other words. Luke I think one way

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I like to put it. Kind of simplifies it. We want a small state. And a big church.

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And even bigger family. We want stronger families. Stronger churches. And a much weaker state.

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So when people say. Look at guys who believe what we believe. And say oh you guys are wanting to sort of politically.

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Take over everything. And force everyone into your mold. No we don't. Now we want things to be criminalized.

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Like abortion. That the Bible would certainly directly or by implication criminalize.

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But there are actually very few of those. Very, very few of those. So that's kind of the important distinction.

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Between sins and crimes. That the Bible lays out. Thank you so much. That's what leads to the title of your book.

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Virtuous Liberty. The smaller the government. The more liberty we have to be virtuous.

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And to have big families. Big churches like you said. That's what leads to that. It's when you look at nations that have big governments.

23:39

And they squash all those things. They squash the families. They squash the churches. They squash virtue.

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And capitalism. And go down the list of things that they don't allow. Because they want all the power.

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And they want to be God themselves. Man that was excellent. So let's shift in here.

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So a little background. From our perspective. Stephen Wolfe's book. Did it come out this year?

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Or was it last year? Or 22? I think it was the end of 22 actually. So that was caused quite a stir.

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A bit of a firestorm in 23. We got friends.

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I think Cannon released it. If I remember correctly. Doug's a good friend of ours. And the guys over in Moscow.

24:31

There's things that Doug likes about the book. Things he doesn't like. And then you got our friends at G3.

24:37

That just hate the book. Which I understand completely. I'm not necessarily even saying they're wrong.

24:43

Which we've addressed that. We've been kind of in the middle. And I'm going

24:49

I haven't even read the book. I don't know. Not sure. It's funny because all my friends are like.

24:56

You need to read the book. Which I probably should. I just haven't got to it. So I'm seeing all this chatter on Facebook.

25:02

And I'm just like we're so busy. I haven't had time to get to it. Like I said when I got to Andrew's explanation. I was like bingo.

25:08

That's it right there. But this is why. This is why it's so important. I mean.

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The term Christian Nationalist. Is a derogatory term. So even if like.

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Even if you're standing on God's word. And you're like this is my position. I can defend it biblically. The left is using it.

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As a way to just cut down anyone. Who is using God's objective standard.

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For truth and morality. Like we even have a friend. Dusty Devers is a good friend of ours. In Oklahoma got elected.

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He's an abolitionist. I saw the list. I forget what they are. But the list of bills that he put in right away.

25:51

Were just straight Theani. Like one of them was an abortion. But they were like incredible.

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And then he was on the cover of Rolling. I don't know if he's on the cover. But Rolling Stone even did an article on him.

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And they're like Christian Nationalist. And I'm like goodness gracious. So even if you like.

26:09

I don't know if you saw the trailer for that film. Coming out from Rob Reiner. I can't remember the name of it.

26:16

Yes I know which one you're talking about. So it's like. Anyone who votes for Trump.

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Is not a Christian Nationalist. It's become this term. That they're just trying to mow down.

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Any Christian whatsoever. Even those of us. That are not Christian Nationalists like me. You want to defend it.

26:34

Because the so called progressives. Will attack anybody that believes in God's law.

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And society as a Christian Nationalist. I agree that's a valid point. So that's why this conversation is important.

26:49

I thoroughly enjoyed. Like I said I was listening to it. While I was doing a bunch of stuff. You spent a bunch of this book.

26:57

Talking about Stephen Wolf's book. And Christian Nationalism. I didn't realize when you sent this to me.

27:06

That you spent so much time on that. And I was like so thankful. I told Jeff as I was like.

27:12

You got to listen to this or read it. Because this is really important. So anyways. I want you to just run with this conversation right now.

27:19

And then we'll go from there. Okay first about Christian Nationalism. My objection.

27:25

And those people who wrote in this book. For example David Bonson. And various others. Is not the idea of Christian Nations.

27:32

We have stood for Christian Nations. For years. So the problem isn't

27:38

Christian Nations. But Christian Nationalism. I'd also like to say. That I'm going to treat basically.

27:45

The thesis of Wolf's book. And I'm not going to treat people. Who disagree strongly with.

27:51

Many of his theses. But still call themselves Christian Nationalists. If they want to call themselves that fine.

27:57

The problem. But his book has been somewhat influential. And reformed.

28:03

In some other circles. So there are several problems with it. I guess one of the first one.

28:10

I'm a supporter. And you are too. Of the Vantillian idea. That we need to base things fundamentally.

28:16

As Christians on the Bible. And not on so called natural law. We do believe in natural revelation.

28:22

Romans 1. Psalm 19 teach that. But the Bible never invites us to create.

28:29

A theology or a law. Specifically excluding the Bible. And Jesus Christ. And that's what so called natural theology.

28:36

And natural law does. Well unfortunately in his book. Wolf bases his

28:41

Christian Nationalism. As the foundation on so called natural law. And Thomism. Thomas Aquinas.

28:48

Of course the noted Roman Catholic. Scholar that even influenced Protestants. Your own

28:53

Dr. James Dwight. Dr. James Dwight has done a wonderful job. In exposing the influence of Thomism. Well that's the very thing.

29:00

That Wolf wants to do. He wants to base things on natural law.

29:06

Now that leads to. One or two scary places. And one of them. It doesn't come out.

29:11

It comes out a little in this book. And that is sort of a hint of an ethnostate. And that's language that he is used to defend.

29:18

By an ethnostate he means a state largely. Bound together by race and ethnicity. Now this is why you have a lot of people.

29:27

Referring to Christian Nationalism. As racism. Well over the board that's not necessarily fair.

29:32

But in some cases it is fair. You do have some Christian Nationalists. That believe in ethnostates.

29:37

And they're basically. I don't know of any other way to put it. White racists. Now it's hard to say that as a conservative.

29:44

Because we know that the progressives often say. Anybody who believes everybody should be treated. Fairly under the law you're a racist.

29:51

Because you don't believe in giving blacks and Hispanics. You know special considerations. And so we want to jump back from that.

29:59

Accusation. But it is an accurate accusation. In a number of cases. And things that have happened historically.

30:04

I'm sure you know what I'm talking about Luke. Some of these people are quite vocal. In their racism.

30:11

And I'm going to tell you flat out. That's just absolutely anti -biblical. I mean the point of the gospel in Ephesians.

30:17

As God's broken down all those walls. The church of Jesus Christ is multi -ethnic. That's just what the gospel does.

30:26

It brings together all races. The main thing in the Bible. Let's just put it this way.

30:31

In the Bible only two races are important. The race of the first Adam. And the race of the second Adam. Doesn't matter what the color of your skin is.

30:38

What your country is. You and I have a greater unity. With a

30:43

Bible believing. Bible obeying. If we do a raving Ghana Christian. Or somebody in Zambia.

30:50

Then we do. A white secularist. A raving white secularist.

30:57

Down the street. That is a pro -abortionist. And a pro -homosexual. We're in the same country.

31:02

But we have more obviously in common. With those in other countries. Those are two big problems.

31:09

With Christian nationalism. The third one we've already kind of touched on. But I need to get back to it. And that is that the nation state.

31:17

Is kind of the central. The central political jurisdiction. And that we find our identity.

31:24

At least largely. To be as members of a particular nation. But that's not true.

31:29

According to the word of God. Of course first our identity is in Christ. And Wolf wouldn't deny that. But then the nation is a big thing.

31:37

See our identity is in our family. Which he wouldn't deny. But see also in our church. Which is more important than our nation.

31:43

Apologia church to members of Apologia. Is more important than the United States. Though I'm a patriot.

31:50

And I love this country. I believe in red white and blue. But Apologia as a church. Is the visible covenant people of God.

31:57

And that's true of all true Bible believing. Biblical orthodox churches. So the nation becomes central.

32:04

But what about these other jurisdictions? What about the importance of the municipality? What about the importance of the states?

32:11

I believe that you guys have the right idea. What Apologia is doing. In trying to influence states for legislation.

32:19

Not the federal government. The important thing. Is not the centralized political order.

32:24

But these decentralized political orders. The founders were brilliant on that point. Because they had these overlapping jurisdictions.

32:33

The nation has authority. But so does the state. And so does the county. And so does the city.

32:38

The municipality. All four of these have overlapping jurisdictions. So there's a check on power. That's based on the biblical idea of what we call original sin.

32:47

That when people are elected politicians. They somehow don't become sinless. Or virtuous.

32:52

So that they could never make mistakes. They too are sinners. Sometimes worse sinners when they're politicians. So for these reasons.

33:01

We support. I'll conclude this. Talking about this. You kind of talked about this a minute ago.

33:11

We have one group who oppose Christian nationalism. Because they don't believe. That the world should be

33:17

Christianized. They don't believe in Christian culture. They don't believe in Christian civilization. They think your family should be

33:22

Christian. At most your church should be. Maybe Christian schools. But don't you guys try to be influencing anything. Out in the wider culture.

33:28

Let's call them the pietists. They rightly oppose Christian nationalism.

33:34

But they oppose it for the wrong reasons. Then of course you have the Christian nationalists. Who are wrong for the reasons that I.

33:40

In my view. For the reasons I gave. Then of course you have the Christian culturalists. The people in this book.

33:49

Who believe it. Basically we believe all of culture. Should be influenced by Christianity. But the important thing.

33:55

Is not centralized political power. But recapturing our families. And our churches. And education. And architecture and music.

34:03

And technology. And yes politics. But in capturing politics. We're basically trying to depoliticize.

34:08

The political order. We want a smaller state. So that's very different. Those are kind of three groups. The pietists.

34:15

The nationalists. And the culturalists. And I'm on the culturalist side. Love it.

34:20

Thank you for that. By the way I know you're running low on time here. So just tell me when you got to go. I've got about 10 -15 more minutes.

34:27

Go for it. Thank you. The Christian culturalist position.

34:33

That's the spot right there. I wore this shirt today on purpose.

34:42

I don't know if you guys can read it or not. It's one of our Apology of Kauai shirts. This is an example.

34:49

This is what it looks like. Many people don't realize. The Hawaiian kingdom.

34:55

Was actually a Christian nation. The queen came to Christ.

35:02

It became a Christian nation. What I have here. It actually says in the constitution. That the land is perpetuated.

35:08

In the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The land is perpetuated in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

35:16

That's what this looks like. When you have a Christian culture. It starts at the bottom.

35:26

You know this. We get criticized all the time. I think you mentioned it in the book too. We're not talking about changing things top down.

35:36

We're talking about going bottom up. It starts with the gospel. We want to grow the culture through the gospel.

35:43

And lead them to Christ. That's how the nation becomes a

35:49

Christian nation. Or a Christian culture. A lot of people don't know that about Hawaii.

35:55

It was a Christian nation. It's still in their constitution today. It still says that. Unfortunately it was the grandkids.

36:05

Kids and grandkids and great grandkids. Of the original missionaries. That brought the gospel to Hawaii. That ruined everything.

36:12

Many of the faithful Hawaiians today. They trace their roots back.

36:18

I think it was in the 1820s. By the way it only took 20 years. 20 years.

36:24

From when the gospel hit the shores of Hawaii. For it to turn into a

36:29

Christian nation. Widespread repentance. It can happen. That's how it happens.

36:35

It started with the missionaries. It didn't start with the queen. Saying we're going to be a Christian nation now.

36:41

It started with the gospel and spread. That's why I wore this shirt today. You can get this shirt at shop .apologiastudios

36:49

.com We got a lot of new shirts. I've been mentioning them. Along with this pre -sip blend coffee.

36:57

It smells amazing. It's a great conversation to have.

37:08

It's so important right now. I'm going to hear we're facing another election. If you thought 2020 was wild.

37:16

Buckle up. Doug Wilson said. If you thought

37:22

J6 was crazy. That's going to look like an Easter Sunday.

37:28

Compared to this year. It's going to be bonkers. A lot of good content. We'll have a lot of good shows ahead of us.

37:35

This is why it's important. I completely lost my train of thought on that.

37:40

I was talking about the shirt. Do you have any thoughts on that? Will I remember what I was going to say? Oh man.

37:48

I know there's a lot. You were talking about Hawaii. The Christian kingdom it became.

37:54

As a result of the missionaries that came. I can't remember where you're going from there. Sorry. I got completely off on the coffee and the shirt.

38:04

Then I lost my train of thought. Where can people get this book?

38:16

I'm not a huge fan of Amazon. That's probably the easiest place to get it. You can get a digital copy. And the hard copy.

38:24

I'll just mention some of the topics. Do you mind if I do that? Go for it. Some of the people.

38:32

Your listeners and viewers would know. David Bonson. Joe Boot in particular. Me of course.

38:39

Several others. I point out what classical liberalism is. How it's based on biblical protestantism.

38:45

Some people say. Is that protestant view of politics. Is it really going to be justified by the bible?

38:51

That's my chapter two. I point out that in my view it certainly can. I have a long chapter on American exceptionalism.

38:59

Is America exceptional? And if so, why? My basic answer is because it's influenced by the bible.

39:05

And Christianity. I don't mean where America is today of course. Though we still have a residue of that. But how

39:10

America was founded. And then I talk about a long chapter on cultural

39:16

Marxism. If you want to know what cultural Marxism is. Want to know who it's predecessors are.

39:21

Who it's intellectual agents were. How it's impacted the world. How it's impacting all of culture. And particularly the left.

39:27

The left is shot through with cultural Marxism. I deal with that. Levi Secord.

39:33

Writes a great chapter on Calvinism. As the foundation for liberty. People say Calvinists don't believe in liberty.

39:39

Oh really? We couldn't have had the United States. Apart from the influence of Calvinism and liberty. And then illiberalism.

39:47

The problem today on the left and the right. Is dealt with. David Monson writes about economic liberty.

39:53

The important thing about that. A great review by Brian Matson. Of Wolf's book specifically.

40:01

Boy. Joe Booth's chapter. On racism is Christian. And against things that are written in the

40:07

Wolf book. It's just outstanding. Brian Matson was reading through it. And I said.

40:12

Joe's chapter is the longest in the book. You might want to cut it down. He wrote back. And he told me I can't cut it down.

40:17

It's that good. Just a great chapter. And Jeff Ventrella. A dear friend.

40:23

And more by David Monson. Christian culture and biblical law. What's the function of biblical law in Christian culture.

40:31

The church and state. Oh another thing I deal with. A little controversial in there.

40:37

Is the whole issue that's come up lately. Of masculinity. In our age of egalitarianism.

40:44

There needs to be a push back. And a big push back. But there are some forms of masculinity.

40:49

That are not Christian at all. They're actually quite pagan. So I deal with pagan masculinity. And I just kind of want to warn

40:55

Christians. Be a biblical man. And don't be a pagan man. With a little Christian veneer. So those are some of the topics dealt with in the book.

41:02

Excellent yes. Very good. I remember what I was going to say. So thank you for taking over there for a second.

41:09

So when I. I may have mentioned this before. But on the show. But we were in Germany.

41:15

This last fall. For an abortion now. And we went to.

41:22

Wartburg where Luther. Translated the New Testament into German. Where there's also the fear hole.

41:28

The fear hole is. Like a three story tall tower. Where they would.

41:34

Put someone down in the bottom. For punishment. And that's where Fritz Erba. Who was an anti -baptist.

41:43

Spent eight years of his life. In that bottom of that hole. Because he wouldn't baptize his children.

41:49

Now. This is why I bring this up. As I'm there. I'm looking at all this stuff.

41:56

And I'm talking to my German brothers there. Just asking a lot of questions.

42:02

Luther. You could see the tower. Basically from the room he translated.

42:08

He wasn't there at the same time. But it was years later. But he knew this man was there. This was not.

42:14

Primarily a theological issue. It was a political issue. And as they're explaining.

42:21

This all to me. I'm like. I was calling it Lutheran nationalism. It was

42:27

Christian nationalism. With a Luther spin on it. The reason they didn't keep this man down there.

42:34

For theological. Because he wouldn't baptize his kids. It was purely political. Because. Those who wanted to baptize their babies.

42:45

Were the ones in political power. Right. Power. That's right. And giving that up.

42:51

If they would have just let him go on his way. They would be giving up that power. Something clicked.

42:56

I was like. That is why Christian nationalism doesn't work. Because we shouldn't be ruling.

43:03

From the civil realm. And telling people. What theological flavors they should have.

43:09

And that's the end result of it. So anyways. That's what I wanted to mention. I'm glad you brought that up.

43:15

I forgot to mention that. The United States was founded by people. Who understood those kinds of problems.

43:22

That had occurred before the reformation. And by the way. It wasn't just the Roman Catholic Church. Persecuting Protestants.

43:28

It was Protestants persecuting other Protestants. As you're pointing out. I would also like to say.

43:33

This is what I appreciate about my Baptist friends. I think. Though I'm not a Baptist myself. I appreciate and respect my

43:39

Baptist friends. Because they tend historically to understand. The importance of a proper.

43:45

A proper separation of church and state. Not the separation of the state from God. Not the separation of the state from God's moral law.

43:53

But trying to keep. The state out of the church's business. And the church out of the state's business.

44:00

It's not the responsibility of the state. To be suppressing people. That they disagree with about baptism.

44:05

One way or the other. And I must say that historically. It's almost always been the Pato Baptists. On this issue.

44:12

That have been persecuting the Baptists. And to their credit. The Baptists have pushed back on that. And I appreciate that contribution.

44:18

In the United States and elsewhere. But you're right. It's not. A good example of that.

44:25

Wolfe in his book believes the Protestant prince. Should suppress heresy. If you mean blasphemy.

44:32

That's one thing. But you really want the Protestant prince. To be able to define heresy.

44:38

And to suppress the religious liberty. Of somebody that doesn't agree with you. On the two natures of Christ.

44:44

Now I'm not saying these are unimportant issues. But in a Christian society. As long as you live within the confines.

44:51

Of God's moral law. You are free to proselytize. Now the reason for that.

44:56

Is we don't need the state. Christians don't need the state. To suppress all non -Christians. Because we believe in the power of the spirit.

45:04

Let's contrast that with Islam. Why does Islam use the power of the sword. To suppress non -Islamists.

45:11

Because they don't have the Holy Spirit's power. We do have the Holy Spirit's power. We're not afraid.

45:17

If unbelievers or atheists are in our society. In a Christian influenced society. In fact I'd like to say.

45:22

That atheists if they understood. A Christian society properly. Would prefer to live in a Christian society.

45:28

Rather than an atheistic society. A Christian society would protect their rights. A Christian society would protect the liberties.

45:35

Within God's moral law of course. I mean atheists can't murder and steal. And rape and pillage and all that stuff. But they can live freely with their own property.

45:43

We would protect them in that way. Like we would protect a Christian. But in an atheistic society. What's to keep anybody from.

45:50

Not just killing Christians. But Jews or Blacks or Hispanics. Or what have you. So I think that's a vital view.

45:59

The responsibility of the state. Is not to enforce church doctrine. But to enforce the moral law of God.

46:06

Appropriate to that sphere. Those are two very different things. The state is not a theologian.

46:12

The state is not a theologian. Now the state should get information from the church. The Bible teaches that.

46:18

But that doesn't mean. That most of the things that the church opposes. Properly opposes. The state should oppress.

46:24

That's the church's job. Or the family's job. I think that point you made there about Theanobapis. Was absolutely correct.

46:29

And it's a vital point. Well I appreciate that. I know you got to go. So I'll end on here with you.

46:37

I've heard a lot of conversation. Around this. Christian nationalism debate. It's been.

46:43

Should the government be Presbyterian? Or should it be Baptist? When I hear that I'm like. That's a wrong headed conversation.

46:51

That's right. I feel like if we got to that point. The state shouldn't be telling you.

46:57

Whether or not to baptize your kids. That's right. Or whatever. That's kind of the topic we're talking about.

47:04

I'm immediately thinking about. That's why the Covenanters. Left Scotland.

47:11

That's why our nation exists. That's right. Because the king was trying to say. I'm head of the church. And I'm going to tell the church what to believe.

47:17

And the Covenanters said no way. That's not happening. And they fought against it. And that's why our nation exists.

47:23

If we're going to go back to that. We might as well just start a new nation. Because. That's tyranny.

47:31

If you got the prince telling the church. What to believe. That's like in the first amendment.

47:37

The bill of rights. The issue there was not. Some secular scholars.

47:43

They're just so stupid. I don't know what they're doing. They have an agenda. But the founders were not trying to dechristianize society.

47:50

They wanted a christian society. That's basically what they had. They didn't want a national church.

47:55

Telling all the other churches. How they should live. They didn't want a national church. That got tithe. Tax money from everybody else.

48:02

They didn't want a national church. Or a nationalized religion. The states already had various establishments.

48:08

So I think if we understand. That everything needs to be decentralized. We want a christian culture. From the bottom up.

48:14

That has happened historically. God willing that will happen again. That's what this book is all about.

48:20

Virtuous Liberty. Thank you brother. I appreciate your time. I'm just grateful for you.

48:28

I'm looking forward to doing something else with you in the future. You bet. Grateful to you

48:33

Luke. You guys are dear friends. I appreciate you and love you so much. God bless you. We love you too brother. God bless. That was excellent.

48:43

I love that man so much. I love that man. He's been such a dear mentor to us.

48:51

So many ways. So. A couple things here.

48:56

I want to mention before I wrap up. One. Another reason why this matters. I don't know if you guys saw.

49:06

We mentioned it. I think two weeks ago. Actually. Gabe.

49:12

I want to talk about your dad some more. Can you Gabe. Can you give us an update on your dad's situation.

49:20

As far as I know. The latest I've heard is just that. Sentencing will be in early July. And he's free until then.

49:27

Okay. And they're appealing to a higher court. Yes. Or at least one of the dependencies.

49:34

I have not heard about all of them. But he was found guilty. Yes. For the

49:39

FACE Act for racketeering. Conspiracy and then the FACE Act.

49:44

Yep. So this is why this matters guys. This is why this matters.

49:50

So here we have a number of. Faithful brothers and sisters. And again caveat. We've been very clear that we don't agree with this method.

49:58

But that doesn't. That doesn't change any. The rest of this conversation. They were trying to stop abortions.

50:06

They were doing a rescue. Where they blocked the door. So you can't come in and have an abortion. And they were arrested.

50:13

They've been charged with the FACE Act. Which is the racketeering charges. It's a federal crime.

50:19

And I think there was 10 of them. I know a lot of those brothers. And sisters.

50:24

They were found guilty this last week. Which is insane. Absolutely insane.

50:31

And like Gabe said. They're awaiting sentencing. Which will be sometime this summer. But it could be anywhere from 1 to 3 years.

50:38

To 10 years in federal prison. Heavy fines etc. That's why this conversation matters.

50:46

Because that's tyranny. That's not virtuous liberty. That's what happens when the.

50:51

Civil realm. The civil government. Becomes far too big.

50:59

And. They no longer are. Protecting the innocent.

51:05

And punishing the evildoer. In this case specifically. It's been flipped on it's head. They're protecting the evildoer.

51:11

Who's murdering preborn children. And punishing the people. Who are trying to save those babies.

51:18

That's why this matters. And any Christian that wants to. Say we shouldn't be.

51:24

Implementing God's law into society. We've said this before. It's not a matter of whether or not.

51:31

The government is going to. Have a God. Or that the government is going to have.

51:38

A system of morality. That they. Make laws by. There's going to be a

51:44

God. In our case now it's demons. It's the people. If the majority of the people.

51:50

Rise up and say this is how it's going to be. There's no objective standard. They can flip morality on it's head. You've got two options.

51:58

You can make laws. According to God's objective standard of truth. Or some subjective standard.

52:05

Of man. I got that from Bonson. As far as legislation is concerned.

52:12

We say this all the time. It's. It's not a matter of. Legislating morality.

52:19

All legislation. Is someone's morality. It's not an issue of we're going to legislate morality.

52:25

The question is. Whose morality are we going to legislate? If you don't want it to be

52:32

God's standard. Then it's going to be someone else's standard. As we're watching. As things unfold in our culture.

52:39

In our nation. When we reject God. When we remove him. From our standard of truth and morality.

52:45

And ethics and so forth and so on. We end up with what we're witnessing.

52:51

What we're seeing. And that's just nonsense. And culture decaying. Completely falling apart.

52:57

I want to make sure I mention that. Also again I want to thank. Heritage Defense.

53:07

Again this is why. Why this matters right. We talk about them all the time. If you haven't heard us say it.

53:15

If you home school your kids. You must be signed up. I urge you to do. Drop what you're doing now.

53:21

Go sign up at heritagedefense .org You can put apology in the coupon code. And get your first month free.

53:28

It's not expensive. It's really affordable. You just pay for the year up front. It's really affordable.

53:34

And you're going to have peace of mind. So if DCS or CPS. Whatever it's called in your state.

53:41

Comes to your door. If someone has falsely reported you. If you're in a state where. Home schooling is looked down upon.

53:49

And someone falsely claims something. And they come to your door. You're protected. You can just dial the 800 number.

53:55

Hand it to them. Don't let them in the house. We've had Bradley Pierce.

54:01

He's our good friend. With Heritage. We had a show where he talked about it. And people have had to use it.

54:09

And it's scary at times. And it's sad. But it's a must.

54:14

So if you home school your children. Please do me a favor. Do your children a favor. Go sign up right now.

54:23

Anyways. On that note. Uh. Please again be in prayer.

54:29

For an abortion now. As we're in the midst of it. I just heard. The list keeps growing.

54:35

So last I heard we were around 21. And actually I think we might be 22 states now. Because I saw

54:41

Kansas. We haven't been a part of that. But we have brothers and sisters. That we know that are doing that.

54:47

That would be the 22nd state that I know of. That's trying to put in equal protection bills.

54:53

In our nation. We're almost half way. So please be praying for us.

54:58

We need your support. We need your prayer. We're paying for everything we do.

55:04

And we can't do it without your faithful. Generosity and partnering with us. We need it and we're grateful for every one of you.

55:11

Even if you can't. Go to your legislators. You can't go out to the abortion mills. Just partnering with us.

55:18

You're part of that work. And we mean that sincerely. We don't just say that. You're part of that.

55:24

You're doing something to help end abortion. End the slaughter of our pre -born neighbors. So we thank you for that.

55:30

So please be praying for Pastor Jeff and Zach. Because that pastor is meeting tomorrow in Iowa. And we're hoping that goes well.

55:37

We just had one here in Arizona a couple weeks ago as well. And that reminds me.

55:43

And I'll end on this. I promise. Again, why this conversation matters. Just this.

55:49

What day was it? I think it was Friday. We're trying to put a bill in here in Arizona. And we had an

55:56

Arizona legislator. Call Pastor Jeff. And say that he agrees with us.

56:05

We've met with this man before. He says he agrees with us. That we need to end abortion. He agrees with Equal Protection.

56:12

But instead of like. Just having the courage. To put the bill in himself. And just be like.

56:18

We're going to do this. He tried to do some pandering. And some political maneuvering with us.

56:25

In order. To not really put the bill in. But look like he was doing something. It ended up not working out.

56:33

Praise the Lord. But he tried. It's really sad to see. It's really frustrating.

56:40

These legislators who claim the name of Christ. They know what the right thing is to do. But they don't do it.

56:45

Because they don't think it's the right time. Politically. And we're like.

56:51

Just be faithful. God's going to bless us. God's going to bless our legislators. Our families.

56:57

Our pastors. Our fathers. Our mothers. Our children. If we're just faithful. And I was having this conversation.

57:03

With Bill Rapier on the way back from camp. And you know. I said look. A lot of the problem in our nation is just.

57:11

And I was talking specifically about dads. Christian dads. They're just not faithful. In the little things.

57:18

If we're just faithful in the little things. Like man. Imagine how much stronger the church would be.

57:24

In our culture. If dads just. The little things in life. One little thing at a time. They're more intentional.

57:31

They're more faithful. And Bill. It's kind of funny. Because Bill and I at the exact same time. We're like. I was saying.

57:37

Just be faithful in the little things. And we both go. But they're actually huge. It makes a huge difference.

57:44

The faithful in the little things. Makes a huge impact in the bigger things. So. We just need more

57:50

Christians to be that way. And those who are. Legislators who claim the name of Christ.

57:56

They need to be faithful. And stop fearing the left. And fearing.

58:01

Losing power. And fearing anyone other than God. So. If you're listening to your legislator.

58:09

Stop it. Be courageous. And I'll end on this.

58:15

I promise. I see Gabe. You're pulling the super chats. I didn't see anything. So if there's anything. Tell me quickly.

58:23

I've been writing some stuff. On David and Goliath. One of my favorite parts.

58:30

About the story of David and Goliath. Is here you have. This little shepherd boy.

58:38

The Israeli army. They're fleeing. They're scared. They're cowards.

58:44

They're scared of Goliath. They're hiding. That's most of the church.

58:52

In our culture. They're just hiding. From the liberals. They're afraid.

58:58

To be courageous. David goes and gets his. Five stones.

59:05

I love it. He comes up to Goliath. Who are you? Uncircumcised Philistine.

59:11

To come against the army. Of the living God. I love that.

59:17

He's so courageous. Who are you? Uncircumcised Philistine. That's how we should be.

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Approaching the culture. Who are you? Uncircumcised culture. To come against the army.

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Of the living God. We believe in a victorious kingdom.

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Christ is ruling. He said he's going to win. The end has already been determined. Why are we afraid.

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In the little battles. To confront the culture. When God has already said he's going to win. I promise

59:52

I'd end on that. I shall. Thank you everyone. Thank you all AXIS supporters.

59:59

If you haven't got your Bonsen. You're free. Bonson you account, please do that. Andrew mentioned this book

01:00:06

David Bonson Contributed that that's Greg's son. We were me having David on soon as well. Actually. Oh, I'm very excited about that He just came out with a new book on Work ethic, which

01:00:17

I am thrilled about. I'm not even gonna go off on a tangent about that right now But we're gonna have him on soon to talk about that.

01:00:23

So Thank you all access you make this happen. We mean it. We don't just say that.