Cultish: What is Christian Science (Episode 2)

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All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults

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We are now and this is gonna be part two of our introduct of our sort of introductory episode

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Into the world of Christian science and Mary Baker Eddie Andrew was your mind blown once again in that previous introductory episode with Tanner Yeah, my mind is extremely blown right now because Christian science is an extremely intricate

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Philosophy and metaphysic, you know, and there's so much to it in order to even

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Understand, you know definitions and terminology Specifically that Christian scientists use we know we all know that they use the same words as Christians that they use the word

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Jesus Christ and sin But it means different things and we're gonna be getting into that today and I'm really excited about that Yeah, so Tanner, just thank you again for coming on to have this discussion with us

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And we thank you for reaching out for reaching out to us And I think it's gonna be very helpful for those people who don't know anything about Christian science to kind of get an intro

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This is gonna be just an overview kind of like a really good introductory primer and we'll have more content for you guys on our social media which will help you understand more about Christian science, so I want to just jump into some of the nitty -gritty

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Theology Tanner so what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna read Three different quotations that Walter Martin picked from his book

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Kingdom of the cults and I'm just gonna read them off and then you can go ahead and just give us your commentary

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We'll just jump into the conversation. We'll kind of get into again Walter Martin always talked about defining our terms

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There's always a language barrier. So here we go So in the section Kingdom of the cults, dr

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Walter -martin in under the section under Christian science and the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ This is the first quote that says the theory of three persons in one

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God that is a personal Trinity or trinity Suggests polytheism rather than an ever -present

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I am that's from science and health page 256 The second quote says quote the

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Christian science the Christian who believes in the first commandment is a monotheist that's he virtually unites with the

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Jews belief in one God and recognizes that Jesus Christ is not God as Jesus himself declared but is the

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Son of God close quote that's from science and health page 361 and Then what

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I find this is a very interesting quote, too I'm sure you'll be able to expand on this for us Tanner, but this quote says

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I the spiritual Christ was infallible Jesus as material manhood was not

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Christ close quote and that's from miscellaneous writings page 84 What I find fascinating fascinating about the third quote is that when they refer to?

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Jesus being material manhood So all that being said with those three quotes on the nature of Jesus kind of like what they believe

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Jump into just the terminology of what do they really believe about? Jesus and how are the

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Gospels interpreted in in light of science and health key of the scriptures? You know it is

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It is the temptation for all of us to make

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God in our own image To To try to define

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God in such a way that That that we can understand him and For Mary Baker ready and for Christian science what we can understand of God Is Is is the standard

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You know that the the idea of the Trinity is Is It just makes no sense to a

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Christian scientist makes no sense to to Mary Baker Eddie there Time and again, she would mischaracterize

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Christian beliefs in the Trinity talking about three persons in one person as opposed to three persons in one being

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She didn't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. And so she sets up straw men And you know

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Christian scientists can kind of Take pride in in in having the true understanding of of God that That benighted

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Christians don't have yeah and And people also have a tendency to make

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Jesus in their own image So Mary Baker Eddie's view of Jesus is that's this really great man

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Who is this amazing teacher and this amazing healer who was persecuted because he was teaching people how to heal

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He was persecuted because he was healing That's mrs.

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Eddie's mythic self -conception and so the

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Jesus that she speaks of Throughout her Things Has really just have a view of So in Christian science

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Jesus is a man and Christ is the spiritual idea how

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Christian science didn't invent that idea trying to divide out the human and the divine

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Yeah in in the in the person of Jesus. I mean that you know that goes back 2 ,000 years

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You know and and and the church going on the basis of Scripture alone has consistently found that Jesus is both human and divine both

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God and man And But Christian scientists are are ignorant of church history

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You know, they sort of had this view that that You know

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The Bible has all of these, you know great things about healing then they lost sight of a true healing around the time of counseled

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Nicaea And and Mary Baker Eddie has restored it You know, so like the

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Mormons this restorationist view. Yeah, and Charles says Russell had that as well, too There's always this falling away this lost knowledge

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But all of a sudden I have what everyone else lost and right one thing is I always find this fascinating as well too

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Andrew is that I was an online discussion with a Was someone who was a cultist and they were attacking the doctrine of the

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Trinity? One of the things I've always noticed and this is probably and I've seen this with what just what you're mentioning

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Is that it always seems that? It's a doctrine that you can't attack without misrepresenting

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I had someone who was trying to argue that you know it was invented at Nicaea and it was invented by like the word

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Trinity has not found the Bible and We need to and it was invented by the creeds and all that stuff

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And I was just saying can we can we get can we talk about? What it was the Bible actually say like that's can we actually talk about that?

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And it seems like they are constantly avoiding trying to get away from that Again, I think one of the problems too is that with a cultist they always try and start with their worldview

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And I would you we mentioned earlier in the passage in Genesis how Mary Baker Eddie just says that's wrong

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It's not necessarily wrong because she's a Bible scholar expert Because that doesn't coincide with her view that Adam was a physical fleshly bleep being that God breathed life into So I just find that fascinating as well, but I go ahead and continue

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Nathan with what you're saying Well, so so she separates out

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Jesus from the Christ and The Christ is is this divine message

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From God to man speaking to the human consciousness. Those are her words Basically Revealing to us are in a true spiritual perfection as found in Genesis 1 in her view of Genesis 1 and Mary Baker Eddie Said this in her own published writings in miscellany page 318

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She says she was speaking to one of the editors of science and health who

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Who cleaned up a lot of the language? And got rid of a lot of sort of I am God type stuff or we can be

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God type stuff He was he was an agnostic Unitarian Minister and And he was coming to her with all sorts of doubts as to whether Jesus Actually existed and she said and she wrote this in her writings

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I do not find my authority for Christian science in history But in Revelation if there had never existed such a person as the

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Galilean prophet It would make no difference to me Wow And it it did make no difference to her unfortunately for her and for Hundreds of thousands of Christian scientists

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For for her His teachings about healing, you know, that's what's important and you know again

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Jesus didn't teach about healing But that's the view because it's it's essentially her her mythic self -conception

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Renamed Jesus That that's that that is the view of Jesus and So Jesus was just this good man wasn't

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God who is doing all these healings and if we Have the true spiritual understanding

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Which and he never gave medicine to people so we shouldn't give medicine to people

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God is spirit. God is mind. God is God is not material. And so we wouldn't use material

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Methods or material remedies in order to heal That's that is a

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Pretty integral part of Christian science and that's what most people know Christian science for is for not using medicine

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But it really comes out of this this false Christ, man.

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That is such a good point I'm so glad Tanner that you brought that up because we've said before bad theology hurts people and this is why this is something

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So prominent to discuss, you know, you have friends who are ex -cultist or specifically ex -christian scientists who came out of this and a lot of times ex -cultists they come out of they go into atheism or agnosticism and I think this is also to why

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Certain people who are cult experts like Steve Hassan or or other prominent experts they fall short because they don't have the ultimate standard of truth to adhere to because unless you actually begin with God in his word and the foundation and the real the real authentic Historical that Jesus Christ that matters because God is the

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God of history that came into that came into history Outside of it but you have to that's the only way in which you can have a definitive standard in which to judge by what is a cult and what is and what is not and Andrew talk about what you were talking about image right before we start recording this about about that as well, too

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Yeah, so so where I'm thinking right now, it's like in in Christian science. What exactly did

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Christ accomplish Jesus Christ? May I say like in his humanity so in orthodox

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Christianity he took on flesh for a reason to become an efficacious sacrifice a

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Sacrifice for our sins so that we can have peace with God. It was Necessary and it was planned and it had a purpose it had a reason it brings all history to one point in time of a loving

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God who is personal a God who knows us to the the tiniest atom every fiber in our being

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He knows and upholds it with the word of his power humbles himself becomes a man and dies for us

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So that we can have peace with God so that we can understand So that's that's the

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Jesus of Scripture where all of the Bible revolves around him, but in Christian science

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The Jesus of Christian science was one that performed miracles one whose blood had no efficacious purpose

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One who really was just connected to this divine mind Who said this is how you are.

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You were once perfect like there's I believe there is a quote From Mary Baker Baker Eddie.

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It says, you know, so is man perfect? Yes in light of Christ man is seen as he actually is so to them

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Christ really what he did was show us that you can break the bonds of this illusion and You can become one with this divine mind essentially because that's what you are but that's that that's a suppression of everything that we're told in Scripture about our fallen state as people who are at war with God who are at spiritual enmity with God and that's and there's there's repercussions of denying that a suppression of the truth a suppression of suffering a suppression of all things in this world to then say you can speak your own things into existence to deny our

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Physical bodies in this physical reality there. It comes with consequences So for example with the

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Jehovah's Witnesses We have the organization who's interpreting the Bible for these people and it says you can't have blood transfusions

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Yep And now in 2016 we had around 1 ,200 deaths that occurred because they denied blood transfusions in the

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Orthodox Christian world View, it's like look at these medical advancements. God allowed this to happen. It's a grace a common grace that we have

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But in in when you follow a false Christ and we have a standard that is contrary to Scripture There's going to be death.

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It's inevitable Those who hate God and who who do not love

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God they love death and that's that's what they're after So there's a spirit behind all of this behind all of this worldview and we can see that a

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Christ that did not truly exist One which would be the Christ of Christian science.

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It comes with death and it comes with blood. We don't want to be Care caricature.

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We don't want to caricature or walk around that or dance around that. There's a real Situation here. There's people that are suffering who don't understand their suffering who can't see

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God's sovereignty Because they are being told essentially that they are God And that's that's a very terrifying thing

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And that's something that's on my heart right now. It's just I'm just burning. What do you think about that brother?

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What do you think about that? Yeah, you know It's six months before my conversion

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You know my wife and I both said that we would rather die than go to a doctor You know, you you're being told to choose between what they call materia medica between medicine and your gut and God You know who's gonna choose that and so they're just There's a story after story after story

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I was just So many people

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I love so many people I know You know whose parents died when they were teenagers

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You know whose husbands died when they're, you know, I'm 24 Whose kids died

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Yeah, I had theology kills and There's so many stories that I wish

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I could tell but they aren't mine to tell but you know when

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In in 1989

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I'll tell this this is out in the papers. There was a there was a measles outbreak At Principia College and Principia College is a college for Christian scientists here in the st.

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Louis area and Out of a community of about 900

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Over 160 members of the community came down with the measles and three of the three of those kids died of Other measles

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I contracted measles from that outbreak actually But But I didn't die

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There There are Websites out there which deal with with the deaths of children in Christian under Christian science care and Christian science parents have been

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Taken to court for manslaughter In in several instances

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And these people love these people love their kids. Let me just let me just say that first They love their kids.

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They think what they're doing is the best thing for their kids and They're just horribly deceived

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And The The effects of this you see it on kids you also see it on parents

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Where so many of my friends in college You know, they had one or both of their parents die when they were in college

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I I was talking to a friend a couple years ago and and We estimated

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Over half if not three -quarters of the people from our graduating class

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Had lost one or more parents You know, so I mean it just you know,

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I I never knew my grandmother and growing up a Someone I love very much her mother

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Died on the day of her older sister's college graduation And it's just okay, you know, that's

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That's the way it happens and in Christian science you You're taught to suppress emotions not to feel feel any negative emotions so you wouldn't feel grief

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Yeah, you're told not to grieve and people all your friends are dying Just your people in your community are dying all around you and then prematurely just because of the fact they're not getting

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This medical treatment which is something that God Like really you think about all the look the progression of Christianity like throughout the world

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Christians are the ones who were advancing like look at the Red Cross the whole story behind like the Red Cross being founded and like all the hospitals that Christians have done like you think about the mercy ships where they go to these play these places in in other countries and they're

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Helping just by the just by tons of just tons of people who are like with quite with the cleft lips

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And all those different aspects of like how they help people and like you just it's so prominent

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This is basic Christianity like you look at that. What what I'm just go ahead. Go ahead

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Well, I just gonna say look two years before I I became a Christian. I gave a talk at that college about how about how using

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I'm using medicine went against the Bible and And We needed to Hold the line on that and Yeah, anyway

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Yeah But um, you know, I just think about this too I mean you think of like all the pre all the people who have died statistically just what

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Jehovah's Witnesses, but now how much more Exemplified it is or magnified by in Christian science because now it is no medical treatment

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Whatsoever and we look at a horrific event like the Jonestown mass suicide which was in our premier episode ground zero

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Jonestown where we went over the The Jonestown deathtape and everyone looks at that how horrific and it was horrific

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But it just so happened to be right around a thousand people in one particular place at one particular time

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But now you just see just gradually just people who are who are dying prematurely and Because they're not getting the medical treatment because of these teachings and they believe in a set

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I'm assuming they believe in a sense that they're just if they died it's because they they almost in a sense died as martyrs because they're dry they're trying to they were being faithful for the teachings of Mary -baker entering

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Christian science what I'm just curious about too is No, I'll let you jump in to as well to Andrew is obviously from medical science has has evolved

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Tremendously since the early 1800s, you know, you look at what people believed about, you know the you think about like in the

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Civil War and like the amputations and how brutal that was, you know, and just and how things were in the 1800s, but this is the advancement of surgery and and and all that you still like different vaccines that have happened that have

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Stopped different plagues and stuff like that and just just going through the where Technology is now as far as like medical science goes

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It's evolved tremendously has there because it has there been more of a rising tension between The teachings of Christian science and where she was

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I mean, I don't know if Mary Baker any like it's foresaw the medical technology getting to where it is today has there been like a rising tension between Those in a sense like there's would there be a a clash of worldviews there just as far as the medical community

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Evolving the community in Christian science. Oh sure. Yeah, they're huge class Clashes there and and you know,

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Mary Baker Eddie says that like You know, the medical profession is the cause of sickness, you know, it's their wrong thoughts of Man as material is is the cause of sickness

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So, yeah huge huge clash is a worldview there A Funny thing is

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I've talked to Christian science because Christian science culture is changing. So at least becoming Slightly more accepting of medicine a little bit a little bit kind of like behind the scenes undercover

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That's part of why I was asked to give that talk at the college stem that tide and You know,

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I've talked to two Christian scientists who say well if Mary Baker Eddie lived today she would approve of using medicine

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No, she wouldn't She wouldn't and she said I get in again throughout her writings

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And spoke about the evils of medicine You know again the her

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But but for Christian scientists, you know her worldview is determinative And Christian science can't be wrong.

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So Christian scientists will even come up with different versions of Christian science in order to Reconcile it to what they're comfortable with What while still staying in Christian science

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Yeah, and and and there are so many Christian scientists I know who feel so so guilty because They're So many of them feel horribly guilty because they're using medicine and Yeah, because they're following a false

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Christ a false gospel what one thing I want to point out is that These people you know that are following this false belief.

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They are victims They are victims of the teachings of Mary Baker Eddie and a false

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Christ and we got to understand that every single religious system Any cult that is not part of the

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Bible all of it is going to require a sacrifice So if you do not believe in the eternal

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God who took on flesh who died for your sins You are going to end up to try to be that sacrifice to appease

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God and it will not work every system of thought That ever existed it all requires a sacrifice.

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It's either going to be yourself which is nothing but filthy rags to God or You're gonna accept

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Humbly accept that God died for you and that that's where it ends up.

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We've got the Mormons sacrificing their time Sacrificing all of these things for these works and going on a mission here or going there

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To try to appease God with their their works essentially, you know While denying the fact that the eternal

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God who created them and created all things Came into existence and died for them. So they're sacrificing themself.

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Hmm, you know and It's very similar. I'm finding with this with the Christian scientists is that we have this access to the grace that God gave us this common grace of medicine and Instead of taking that they say no,

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I'm going to sacrifice myself And it's in it's sad. They're victims.

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It's almost like a Stockholm syndrome You know, you're stuck in this cycle you're stuck in this circle, but it's not it's not it's not helping and that that's what

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Christians now need to realize we need to realize that we are Children of the true living

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God that he has power that he exists and sits at the right hand of the father and is reigning

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Now only he can bring about freedom Right, and that's by preaching the gospel

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Yeah, that that's what we need to understand to go out there and we need to talk to these people. They are victims

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They're hurting they're dying. They're trying to sacrifice themself instead of relying on the sacrifice of Christ and that is a

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Terrifying thing to think about. Absolutely. So Tanner, I'm gonna just hand it back to you here.

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So When you talked about just your time being in there and just seeing and I and again

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I just really appreciate your vulnerability and transparency. I mean, I just yes just the ability to See that all around you but then having to suppress your emotions about that Let me ask you this as well, too

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And I talked about this to you and I was initially on the phone with you in the aspect of mental health that's always been a key factor of people who are in the

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Colts and also coming out of the Colts that there's always a lot of Is so predominant especially in the end with ex -Jehovah's

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Witnesses in our last series that we did But in the same way you talked about how they viewed in the same way like a doctor like medicinal with someone like a licensed

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Psychologist or therapist to help with the areas of like mental health that would be the case as well as well, too

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Or talk about that as well, too Yeah, just as a Christian scientist would never go to a doctor or Or wouldn't, you know, let it be known that they but they would not go to to a counselor or a therapist or a psychologist

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So the whole realm of psychology the whole realm of mental health is

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It's completely foreign to to Christian scientists and and You're told to suppress your emotions and And and you're living in a constant state of denial

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You know I have friends who to this day have not seen a picture of anything from 9 -eleven because they don't

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Want to make a reality of it. They're living in denial that it happened You live in constant denial and And also this constant thought that that you're responsible for things.

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So when 9 -eleven happened, I felt guilty Because had I been on my game

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Spiritually, I could have stopped it. So Mary Baker Eddy wrote to Christian scientists in in San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake that had they been doing their work spiritually had they been on top of things spiritually that earthquake wouldn't have happened and You just think of the narcissism and the guilt

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Which comes as a result of that? Where you are responsible before For the fate of the world essentially

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One of my Reactions to 9 -eleven was guilt feeling that Had I been on top of things

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Metaphysically had I had I really been spiritually praying as I should that 9 -eleven wouldn't have happened

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So Mary Baker Eddy would have been diagnosed with a severe case of narcissistic personality disorder

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She just checks every single box She checks boxes for most of the

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DSM Problems but But Christian science breeds so much narcissism, even though they don't use the language today that that That we can become spirit we can become

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God That is the mindset that That I am responsible for sickness and for health and I am responsible

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You know for world of world affairs and and and as as difficult as as The physical scars that we all bear from from our time in Christian science

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Without a doubt The biggest scars that that Expression scientists talk about are the the emotional and the psychological

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The mental and and yes the spiritual scars From From Having to suppress things for so long for You know having parents those that that you are turning to for love and support

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Being emotionally distant emotionally cut off But you can't come to them and say hey mom

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I'm feeling sick I Mean, you know, they respond the best that they that they know but But their worldview just brings so much harm to to those family relationships

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Well, so it's almost an app It's almost an aspect where like they're orphaned even though you know, if there is like a mom and a dad there

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Wow Like there's there's real there's almost like spiritually induced fatherlessness. Mm -hmm.

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Would that be a correct assessment? Those are those are some strong words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know

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Mary Baker Eddie She had a a child With her first husband and and She didn't care take care of the child and the child was taken away from her and Mary Baker Eddie's were counting of that as there was this whole conspiracy to take her child away

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That's not what the facts on the ground say, yeah and You know,

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I You know, I love my folks, you know

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But yeah, there are a lot of people who feel hugely cut off from Emotionally cut off from their families emotionally orphaned.

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Yeah Hmm Wow, so let me ask you this so this is we've covered a lot of ground here

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Get into the point where What gives the point that led up to your your conversion moment like getting out of Christian science because you mentioned we talked a bit about like the the mental the medical aspects both in regards to you know physically but also like the mental health aspect for sure and that's

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That could be a whole nother podcast in of itself But um kind of if you just walk us through what what kind of were the talk about what what happened in between the six months to where you said you and your wife said that you'd never go to a hospital and then

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God By God's grace you became a new creation and the Bible talks about that.

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Talk to us about Lead us into that as well So I've got it.

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I've got a backup way before six months. Yeah, I mean so Timelines So as I said

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When I was in college, I had Christian science class instruction, which is training to become a practitioner and I became one of the youngest practitioners in Christian science history and During that training

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My Christian science teacher and those Christian science teachers operate as cults within the call

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This is a man who was like a father figure for me and He loved the

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Bible as he understood it. He had over a hundred thousand pages of notes on the first chapter of Genesis He encouraged me to to study

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Greek in college And to do word studies and in Greek and in Hebrew and He wholeheartedly believed that Mary Baker Eddie fulfills a number of Biblical prophecies hundreds of biblical prophecies and I knew those those prophecies like the back of my hand

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And in and In order to better understand

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Mary Baker Eddie and better understand Christian science will film in a prophecy I began to study

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Jesus fulfillment of prophecy. I began to Listen to people online talking about Jesus fulfilling prophecy

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I began to listen to And and and read things up from a

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Christian perspective About About the

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Bible and And also another thing that that my teacher pointed out is that That teaching is based on a question and answer system that that Sort of derived is a horrible perversion of the

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Westminster Catechism, which Mary Baker Eddie claims to have memorized as a girl

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And so I thought okay, well that's the basis and she grew up a Calvinist So I'm I'm gonna start, you know learning some of that stuff.

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And so I started reading Westminster Catechism and And I started it

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Mary Baker Eddie has throwaway lines throughout her her writings where she will have have a sentence taken out of context from Luther and Augustine and Jonathan Edwards and I took those as endorsement.

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I took those as okay here. She is citing Citing these these people. Yeah, they don't have all the answers, but they've got a lot of great answers enough for her to Positively cite them.

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So I started reading in college started reading things from Luther and from Calvin and and Augustine and and Jonathan Edwards and Irenaeus So After college

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About a year later. I moved out to Boston, which is where the world headquarters of the church is and I I lived across the street there for For many years lived in Boston for for nine years

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Attending six services a week Ushering them. I was head usher platform usher assistant superintendent taught

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Sunday school to every age range And I was giving talks to different places around the country about Christian science and at first my talks on Christian science were about Mary Baker Eddie fulfilling prophecy and Yeah Within the

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Christian science worldview, but more and more my talks Began to shift and and I found myself

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Using kind of biblical Basis bases for things and and cherry -picking quotes from science and health to support what

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I was what I was saying Which is the opposite of what Christian scientists do where they start with Mary Baker Eddie and cherry -pick the

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Bible in in 2010, I watched a

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Talk by Tim Keller at the gospel coalition where he's talking about idolatry

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And that rocked my world. Mm -hmm. I He was talking about the idols of our hearts and and and I I Could see there were just so many idols in my heart.

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I Didn't know how to get rid of them and I could tell he was talking to people who all kind of us

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You know, they knew what the solution was for getting rid of those idols but I but I didn't but that talk rocked my world and I Began to break free from some patterns of sin in my life that but it had a real hold on me and I My talks the subject of my talk started to change to idolatry our need of a savior

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Grace and grace is a totally foreign concept, right? Yeah After after that talk here,

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I had been in Boston for almost 10 years I felt like God was telling me to move to North Carolina.

40:30

I Didn't know why? But but but felt like that Which got me out of Boston and and out of just being right there

40:41

My wife has had the same Christian science teacher that I that I did and when we first met

40:49

At a meeting of our of our Christians as teacher in line for lunch and and we struck up a conversation

40:57

And I I sat in an empty table in the middle of the rooms kind of hope she'd come over and sit with me and she did and During that right from that opening conversation.

41:08

I'm talking with her about grace and she had never heard the idea She she says later that She thought the song amazing grace was about this great woman

41:20

And So We got we got married a year later and actually

41:28

We chaperoned a trip for that school Principia To Israel I had been to Israel several times before but while we were there in Israel, we were at the garden tomb and somebody gave just a quick Explanation of the gospel that was the first time

41:49

Hillary and I've been sharing gospel things with her but that was the first time she heard it and That really just meant so much to her and so much to me

42:00

I was like, okay great I can marry this woman But She was living in st.

42:09

Louis and teaching at the school After our first child was born she

42:17

She quit and became a practitioner became a healer too and during this time I'm I'm you know,

42:23

I'm sharing things with her about grace and and She's loving it and and just becomes on fire with with that message and And she kept coming to me and saying

42:42

You know Tanner I were to write a book It would be about the gospel. It wouldn't be about healing

42:48

Wow And For four years,

42:57

I didn't have a single good night's sleep I'm tossing and turning every night because here

43:02

I am a nationally Pretty well -known

43:07

Christian side. So let's put it that way. Yeah, and Completely committed to Mary Baker a fulfilling biblical prophecy and I'm not seeing grace there.

43:18

I'm not seeing the gospel and And and and I never told my wife a single doubt or concern

43:31

But she's growing up in love for the gospel people are hearing about The talks that I'm that I'm giving and wanting kind of previews of them and so people were coming to our to our house a couple nights a week

43:47

To hear the message of grace that we were talking about And and I would cherry -pick things out of Mary Baker Eddie's writings that made it made her sound like a

44:00

Calvinist And And say yeah, you know

44:09

Mary Mary Baker Eddie thought that I found a reference that said

44:17

God in one of her earlier weddings, but I didn't see the full context what it says We are too Yeah, so So people are hearing about this is it on fire?

44:27

I'm I am Filling in a little bit at as a

44:33

Bible class At the school teaching things there and Coming up to the 500th anniversary of the

44:45

Protestant Reformation and Every year I would write like a hundred 150 page sometimes 200 page paper on something pertaining to Christian science and My my thesis was that on all the issues that separated

45:04

Rome from the reformers I'm looking basically at Luther Christian science culture stands with Rome over against performers

45:17

Wow Justification scripture alone Superstition, you know all sorts of things, you know hundred fifty pages.

45:25

I want to read that And And And I was saying, you know

45:32

Christian science culture I'd had problems for 20 years with Christian science culture, but I thought we were just doing it wrong and if we got back to Seeing the study fulfilling biblical prophecy, which is a minority view with them within Christian science

45:47

That would fix it. Yeah But my my doubts were definitely growing So mid -october 2017 my wife was asked to give a talk a chapel talk to to the high school students and and And the faculty staff at Principia on any topic she wanted and she chose grace and People came up people came up to her afterwards says that was the best talk

46:19

I've ever heard You know people just hungering for this message

46:25

The most the number one question that I got as a Christian science practitioner was how can

46:31

I know God loves me? These people want to know the love of God.

46:36

They are hungry and they're thirsting and they want to know the real

46:42

Living God who knows them and loves them This is this message speaks to them

46:53

Deep down to the core Wow So three weeks later,

47:00

I'm lying in bed and I'm saying Holy Spirit.

47:05

You've got to do your work in us. Whatever that is. Mm -hmm. The next morning was a

47:12

Sunday morning and we went to church as normal and afterwards Hillary Hillary looked at me and she said

47:20

I don't think this is it and they said I don't think so either She's what

47:27

Never thought Tanner Johns would would say that You know because for years

47:33

I had been trying to say, okay. Well, you know, maybe Maybe all these things that sound like works righteousness are just sanctification or something like that.

47:41

Mm -hmm But we both knew at that moment, okay

47:48

We're done And our lives are never gonna be the same We drove home and I said, okay.

47:56

I need to go for a walk and it was it was a beautiful peak fall foliage day and Went for a walk and I said, okay

48:07

I Could never atone for all of my sin. There's just no way

48:19

I repent of my sin. I repent of Christian science It is only through Christ's righteousness

48:30

That I could ever have atonement with God, yeah and That's what

48:36

I was free. Oh My goodness to Tanner Tanner. How did it feel?

48:42

To look at the world after that and say look, this is not an illusion This is actually a creation of God to actually look at nature and see the beauty of God's design

48:51

How did that feel? I Absolutely different and it was you know, like I said, it was peak fall foliage.

48:59

It was just such a beautiful day And you're and you're now and you're now allowed to feel right?

49:05

Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's beautiful, dude Yeah, so I came back home and I said to my wife we've got to get to a real church tonight

49:13

And so we googled for a PCA church with an evening service Yeah, we're Presbyterians Raw works in progress

49:25

Right and And we we thought it a church with an evening service and and for years

49:37

I Had been I've been reader at one of the largest churches in the world. She's there in st. Louis.

49:42

Mm -hmm and Would drive past Reform churches on the way there and my heart was just like I want to be able to go to those churches you know for years have been

49:56

Feeling that we didn't know any Christians. We didn't even we weren't even sure how to go about Meeting Christians So so we got to to the church and it was an ordination service and They had had the wrong time on the website because the ordination service started earlier and so we walked in in the middle of the service

50:21

And my wife took the kids down to to the nursery and I'm just out in the lobby and I'm I'm weeping and and someone the an usher came up to me and and You know tried to comfort me asked me what was going on I told him just a just a snippet of my story and His parents had come out of Christian science

50:46

No way and and and I looked at And it was an ordination service and preacher was preaching and it happened to be

50:56

Ligon Duncan The chancellor of Reform Theological Seminary who I can listen to preach for years

51:06

Um and He after the service they ran and they grabbed him and he came up to me and and I told him my story

51:14

He was the first one to pray for us as new Christians And they went and they grabbed somebody who was

51:24

Working with the children was a girl that I went to high school with 20 years before Who is

51:34

The founder and director of the only ministry in the world for former Christian scientists what?

51:42

Yeah God is amazing. Keep going brother. Yeah, and and she said Tanner What are you doing here?

51:48

Because she knew I was a practitioner and she said, you know, aren't you a practitioner? I said not anymore and she said well as a win and I said this afternoon and And, you know,

51:59

I told her some new story and just said I just wanted to serve the real God I just wanted to serve

52:05

God and I'm just weeping and she said now you can serve him for real Wow So that night we called our

52:16

Christian science teacher and Told him we were leaving

52:21

Christian science he said that We had a quick an hour -long conversation and and he said well, yeah,

52:30

Mary Baker He didn't get it from the Bible. It was a it was a revelation to her which the Bible, you know confirms her revelation

52:38

And that's just not what I had thought. He'd been teaching for the last 20 years It's always a private revelation

52:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely The next day we told our friends and our family

52:55

And we told the Told the church that we were not going to be practitioners anymore and Ended up with They wanted to try to help us some, you know, somehow, you know,

53:14

I thought maybe well, okay Maybe you're having some financial issue or something like that. And he said no. No, we're leaving Christian science and And Both my wife and and myself had an opportunity to To preach the gospel to the heads of the church.

53:29

Praise God. Mm -hmm and Several of my friends said this was the biggest earthquake to hit the church in decades and It was like setting off a nuclear bomb

53:44

We had been sharing the message of the gospel with our friends and family I was talking to people every single day about justification and sanctification and and the blood of Christ and People just loved it

53:59

They were hearing the message of a God who knew them and loved them for the first time And they loved what they were hearing and then when we converted every single one of those doors closed

54:10

And Those people don't want to ever talk with me again Wow I'm just praying that We had an opportunity to plant and somebody else will come along in water

54:28

Yeah, I have no idea how many tears my wife and I shed last year for for all of our friends and family so many

54:41

So many hundreds of people that we know thousands of people That that we know and and worked with and and You know shared lives with and You know that's been very hard the loss of all those friendships and Friendships with people who were tracking every single thing that we were saying

55:16

They're not going to be brought out of Christian science through human power. It's only through the work of the

55:21

Holy Spirit. Mm -hmm and They're not going to be brought out of Christian science by Just trying to poke holes in Christian science.

55:30

There are lots of holes that can be that can be poked But there's a there's a great old sermon by a

55:38

Man named Thomas Chalmers who talked about the importance of the Holy Spirit The Explosive power of a new affection basically

55:49

Our old narrative of Christian science or whatever the cult may be has to be replaced by the new narrative

55:57

Amen, I've got love for us in Christ. Yeah, and and so as you are as you are

56:03

Talking to you know, maybe a Christian scientist, you know, or a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon Just pointing out, you know different historical things and little gotchas here and there, you know,

56:14

I I knew all of those and And and I could refute all of those to my own satisfaction and and did for 20 years

56:21

You know defended Christian science in the Wall Street Journal and Boston Globe but When the message of the gospel

56:30

Hit my heart that transformed it and And so to present the message of the gospel of a

56:38

God who knows us and loves us and redeems us through his through his son

56:47

That is powerful and That is that brings about marvelous transformation and it has for me and my wife and and and for for scores of other people

57:05

Hundreds of others and you know, I just I pray that like God will continue to do a great work and And Will Bring Christians and into their lives and And help present the gospel

57:27

To them because this is a message which resonates deeply in the heart And this is a message that people want to hear and Yeah, it it it's not easy

57:39

But you know to the Christians out there who are listening. You don't have to be an expert on Christian science but you

57:50

You're an expert on the gospel. Yeah you know your Lord who who has saved you and who has redeemed you and You don't need to be able to poke holes in Christian science

58:03

But just to boldly and humbly and Lovingly proclaim

58:16

What he can do that that changes hearts and And I just pray that that it will bring about a a transformation

58:29

God But God is going to bring Every single one of his people to himself.

58:36

Yep he cannot fail and Yeah, I just encourage everyone listening to pray with me that that he would do so You know,

58:49

I hope people come away from from these podcasts not with a sense of wow. That's a really wacky call but with a

58:57

A conviction to Love their Christian science neighbors love their prosperity gospel neighbors love their

59:08

Mormon neighbors and And to bring them the only message that heals and My wife and I have experienced so much healing so much transformation in the last year and a half it's just remarkable and we just You know, we so long to see that for all of our friends and family

59:32

Wow, well Tanner, um, I Think I don't think you could we could wrap it up any better than the way you just ended it

59:39

And that is just so it's so good And I really appreciate saying that too because a lot of people are fascinated by You know

59:47

Mary Baker Eddy and just like a lot of that there's definitely a lot of cultish and friends aspects of it and obviously the aspect of Not going to the hospital and all the things that entail that but at the end of the day

59:58

We like I said, we're not neutral here. We we have we have the truth that God has revealed the historical

01:00:06

God's revelation Revealed through objective history and here we and here we have it. So we can't be neutral in regards to the centrality is a myth

01:00:15

And like I said, unless you begin with an objective standard, you don't have any measurement Yeah, don't have one any way to measure what it is

01:00:22

So, um, I I really appreciate you again man just coming on I I'm just I'm just blown away, you know,

01:00:29

I just think about what you had to suppress like for so long and it kind of goes along with what the

01:00:36

Bible says in Romans about Suppressing the truth and unrighteousness, you know, but it's the righteousness of God that comes through faith and you know

01:00:45

It really kind of captivated me, you know, and I and I appreciate you being just being transparent, you know And it's like and even like with your emotion stuff and that's okay in a sense, you know

01:00:54

You're probably given all your upbringing in it, you know, you're making up for lost time in a sense, you know

01:01:00

And and I say that just just you know Observing that and that's an okay and beautiful thing but But yeah, man, it's just been

01:01:09

I don't know. I feel like I'm just settle. I'm just I'm just blown away, but it's just knowing that yeah, so the

01:01:16

God yeah, what I was saying is that the The gospel though is that it's not just that you have your sins forgiven or that you get the righteousness of God I mean, that's a means to an end is that you get

01:01:27

God and you get exactly his love Which is the love that is the triune love between Jesus and the

01:01:34

Father and the Holy Spirit That was shared with God before the foundation of the world. So I think we have a train just so you know, it's too we have like a train right behind our studio

01:01:43

So sometimes if you hear that mumbling, that's what it is But it's all good We'll wrap up things up here.

01:01:49

We're gonna hear for a while Andrew any last words before you wrap up No, I just want to echo what our brother

01:01:55

Tanner was saying is that yeah, there may be these fringe things There's there's things that may be interesting to talk about but the truth is and the reason why we're here is because they're people being hurt from these cults and believing in a false

01:02:09

Christ to Christ that can't save and That that that's why we should be here

01:02:14

That's why we should be discussing this is to get the gospel in there because the gospel is the power of God for salvation

01:02:21

Yep, that that's it. It's as simple as that and we need to remember That there's people out there that we should be caring about and loving and the truth is that love

01:02:32

Love is preaching them the gospel getting over yourself Leveling with them on the on the playing field, which is we're all sinners in need of a holy

01:02:40

God In saying this is what God did for me And I'm gonna preach to you the gospel because I love you no matter how uncomfortable it is

01:02:49

And that that's that's what I was getting out of that Tanner. I love that so much I loved your your transparency like Jerry was saying and I am so encouraged brother

01:02:57

And I I just can't wait to see what God's gonna do with this. I just can't wait Alright, so I thank you guys for listening to this two -part series on our kind of introductory episode on Christian science nothing and the world of Mary Baker Eddie.