DEBATE REVIEW: White vs Breda (Moderator's Perspective)

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Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me, so heavy

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And I need a friendly voice with some good theology

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Now because you'll be speaking, so I mix a manly drink, Pepsi and shoe polish

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And I hit the YouTube link, don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away, oh

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It's your Calvinist Podcast with Keith Polisky Beers and boat rides, laughs till sunrise

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It's your Calvinist Podcast with Keith Polisky He's not like most

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Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

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Good afternoon, I'd like to introduce myself, my name is

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Doug Wilson and I'll be the moderator of today's debate Actually in all honesty, my name is

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Chris Arnson, I'm the host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Hey guys, it's

01:26

Keith and welcome to your Calvinist Podcast Today's the day, we're going to be giving a review of the

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James White -Jason Breda debate on the atonement And this is a unique review because I'm going to be doing so as having served as the moderator

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But I'm not going to be doing it alone, thankfully, I'm going to have two really good friends with me to be a part of today's debate review

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I have with me my very good friends, Jake Korn and Matthew Henson Jake Korn, of course, is the tag king and my fellow

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Calvinist And Matthew Henson is the techromancer and of course the not yet Calvinist And that is how we're introducing him every time, even though he is wearing a shirt with all of our faces on it

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And Uncle Rich's face and his shirt has the word Calvinist on it It's the biggest word, in fact, it's the bigliest word on the shirt

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And so does mine, this is my gift from Claude Ramsey And you're wearing your

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Five Point Calvinist shirt, Jake? That's right, it feels good to be back, man, I haven't been on for months

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Yeah, I know, I'm so glad to have you guys on, I'm excited to do this And we have a lot to get to today, but I do have a few things

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I want to say before we get into this First of all, I want to thank the conference, the people who put this conference on That is

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Jeffrey Rice, those who know about his Bibles, he binds

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Bibles He's one of the best in the business, I would say the best And Jeff is the one who is the pastor there, and Haps Addison and Braden Patterson They're the ones who put this conference together

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They did the conference the year before I was there as a podcaster This year I was there as a speaker And I just want to say how much

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I love and appreciate those brothers and all the hard work that they did Also want to say that the conference was great

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There was three days of wonderful messages There were a lot of children there, the children sat through the messages

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They did a great job, they were very well behaved Had a couple little boys who were so sweet to me They would come up and say, you're that funny guy

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And they'd follow me around, and I was just very encouraged by the fact that they were enjoying some of the videos that I was putting out

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And if you watch some of my interviews from the debate, you'll see the boys walking around the background One boy's even kind of making a little motion to get on camera, which

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I thought was cute But everything was great, I was really encouraged Had an opportunity to spend some time with Leighton Flowers while I was there

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And I will say this, from the outset I spent time with Dr.

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White, spent time with Leighton Flowers, spent a little bit of time with Jason Brita And I was encouraged by all of it, there was no negativity, there was no ugliness

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Everyone was very kind and sweet Jason was a nice guy, had a chance to talk to him before the debate

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Talked to him a little bit about expectations and rules and stuff like that And as far as following the rules and everything,

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I think he did a good job I think he was certainly respectful It wasn't anything like we saw in some previous debates where guys wanted

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Dr. White to drink What was that one guy wanted him to drink? Was it

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Drano or was it Bleach? Antifreeze Antifreeze, that's right After complaining about no visual aids,

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Brother Man straight up brings a jug of Antifreeze right up to the debate And spills some of it everywhere, which is just special So also,

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I want to say this As we talk about today's debate review, obviously I brought along two friends

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And I'm very thankful one of them is a Calvinist and one's not a Calvinist I've watched a lot of the reviews so far And I've noticed there's been, in most of the reviews that I've seen

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It's either been all Provisionists or all Calvinists that are talking I've yet to see one that sort of has a mix

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And obviously Matthew is a not yet Calvinist, I joke about that He doesn't have antipathy towards Calvinism He's not a

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Provisionist, so I didn't bring a Provisionist along I did try to at least balance this out with someone who may not hold the same view

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As we do on this issue of the atonement Because I do think confirmation bias does play a big part

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Of how people see debates, how people respond to debates And if you don't believe confirmation bias exists

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Just remember that last night there was a State of the Union address And many, many people said Biden did a great job

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And if that doesn't prove to you that confirmation bias exists Then I don't know what it is

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I support my Commander -in -Chief and I will gladly do everything that he says Jake, for those listeners who are unaware

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Jake is currently serving as a chaplain in the United States Army And has opinions that are largely governed by the

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UCMJ So we'll just leave it at that And he's not going to elaborate on that And we're very grateful for your service, my friend

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Yes, we are Also, I want to mention this Just one thing

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About Jake, and I'll pull you back in a second About Jake, Jake is a graduate of Gordon -Conwell Seminary And later on, some of the

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Greek text that comes up Is going to be part of our conversation And Jake has some thoughts about that So just if anybody questions, you know, well, who's this guy?

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Well, this guy, he's a seminary graduate So he knows a little something And so, again, thank you,

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Jake For being on today And sharing with us the wisdom that you have Gleaned from spending time in God's Word And Matthew, of course, is an elder

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As I said, Matthew is an elder at his church So he's certainly no slouch either So glad to have both of you

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But Jake, you were going to say, and then I'll let Matthew speak I was just going to say, let's not get anybody's hopes too high up I mean,

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I'm eight years out of seminary I still use my Greek I tutored in Greek, I TA'd in Greek But, I mean,

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I'm no James White Just, I think there might be some useful points for us to look at As it means for this debate Sure Matthew, you were going to say?

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Yeah, regarding the not -yet -Calvinist point Which is funny, and I do like it as a show joke Something, I think, people get too binary in their thinking

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And they think you're either a five -point Tulip -professing, like, very passionate

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Advocate of, yeah, advocate of Calvin's soteriology And so when people ask me, why aren't you?

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Or, you know, what is your position? My usual response is, listen, all five points That we, really, we were reading that back into Calvin He didn't separate them out that way

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But we've sort of categorized them that way All five points absolutely have a grounding in truth

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And there's a lot that I would agree with them It's just the extent and the application That I wouldn't go as far as Calvin necessarily did

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And some modern -day proponents would So if the listener is expecting me to take the anti -Calvinist position

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Then you're going to be disappointed Because it's not what I'm here to do I'm not defending or attacking a particular philosophy

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I'm just going to take point by point and say Here's what this looks like to me So I just wanted to make that clarification Because in the past, we had a

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Misconceptions on Calvinism show And 2 Peter 3 -9 came up and we diagrammed it out

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Jake has this wonderful sentence diagram Where we're looking at, you know, the subject And the nouns and the verbs and all that And someone got very mad at me

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He was like, I can't believe you didn't hit him on 2 Peter 3 -9 And I'm like, that's not what I'm here to do I'm not, like, this isn't a debate

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I'm not here to take a different side I'm here mainly because I love my brothers here I love

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God's word and I love debate And I'd like to talk about what we saw and all that So if you're looking for a food fight

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Just go ahead and turn the podcast off now And dislike the video twice So there we go

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You're on mute, buddy Thank you I was going to say, always, if you hit that thumbs down button

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Make sure you hit it twice just to tell us how bad it is Yeah, absolutely Well, what we've done is we have put together

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A list of actual clips from the debate This is directly from the speakers

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And we're going to speak on them Some of them are a little longer than others And we're going to try to get to all of them

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We're going to try to keep our comments Focused on what this is saying It's a lot, though And this is another thing

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I haven't seen people do I don't know if there's anybody out there who's done that Who's actually taken clips from the debate I'm thankful for StreamYard I know that's something funny to be thankful for But I'm thankful for software that allows us to do this

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So we can all see the same thing So I'm going to pull up First, this is

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James White's central argument This is a two -minute video So this is going to take a minute to get through But this is the central argument that James White was making

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The subject of the debate is Is the Reformed Doctrine of the Atonement Biblical and important?

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Which is a very weird thesis We all agreed that it was kind of an odd choice For a thesis because it didn't say

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Is limited atonement It said the Reformed Doctrine of the Atonement And, of course, Breida jumped right in Well, there is no one single

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Reformed Doctrine And that was part of his argument And I get that, right? That does leave a lot open

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But Dr. White is clearly arguing For limited atonement What we would call classic

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Owenian I don't know if that's the right way of saying it But Owen's doctrine of limited atonement From death of death

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And so this would be what he's defending here Who has the ability, the power, the capacity

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He is able to do what? To save completely It can be ponte less

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It can be completely or forever Obviously both of them imply the other To save forever or completely

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Those who draw near to God Through Him This refers back to who was it Under the

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Old Covenant When the offerings were being made The people had to come into the presence

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Of the Lord They became the congregation of the Lord When those offerings were made

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They weren't made for the Amorites They weren't made for the Babylonians They weren't made for the Egyptians They were specific under the

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Old Covenant Therefore he is able To save completely

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Those who draw near To God through Him Only Him Why?

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How does he have this capacity? How does he have this power? Since he always lives to make

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Intercession For them Now the high priest made intercession But he always had to do so with what?

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The blood of the sacrifice But what did we see in Romans Chapter 8? And I believe

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Paul Preached Hebrews in Hebrew And Luke wrote it In Greek.

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That answers pretty much All the questions for me as far as that is concerned So I think this is the same theology

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But it's all from the Holy Spirit Anyways, since he always Lives to make intercession

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For them The work of intercession Is specifically For a specific people

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And it results in Their salvation It results in Their salvation

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It does not provide a means It doesn't just Simply make men savable

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Notice the result is He always lives to make intercession For them and that's the ground

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Upon which he has the capacity And the power to save Completely That's the perfection

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Of the work of our high priest And the author continues on He then quotes from Jeremiah 30

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Alright So that's as much of the clip as We're going to listen to We obviously hear the argument

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That Christ intercedes only For the believers His atonement, his sacrifice is made

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Only for the believers And I remember one person I saw that was arguing against White he was saying well in this

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Scheme he's saying that Christ intercedes For unbelievers and the bible doesn't say

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That it was a very kind of a convoluted Argument but You guys want to hear your thoughts

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Just on White's opening there So He's referring to Hebrew 7 25

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This is not one of the normal Texts that like people who Bicker about this online go to They go to places like John 644 you know and I'm kind of Impressed that James White didn't do that And like to get after What you're specifically saying

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It's in Hebrew 7 25 the answer of Who is able to be saved

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And who is being interceded for I don't think Dr. White Underlined it enough

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He is able to save to the uttermost Here's the qualifier Those who draw near to God Through him

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So it is qualified to whom Specifically this saving and intercessing

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Action is given to I just don't think enough time Was spent on that because people who didn't

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Understand the argument I think Were like you just said about that other gentleman Were saying well that could apply to other

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People well no it can't that's the Classic Calvinist argument right It's the classic Calvinist argument against John 316 the whosoever

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Well we have an answer for the whosoever The whosoever are the people who are regenerated We have an answer as to who those people

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Are same here who will Be the people that will draw near to God Only those who are the elect

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Which is why Dr. White Connects this to Romans 8 I would also connect it to John 6

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The only ones who will draw near Are the ones that are given by the Father the ones that are called for Known predestined so What he's doing is he's drawing a longer

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Argument he's not doing proof Texting he's not doing bits And bobs he's kind of taking

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An overall discourse analysis Through the New Testament And drawing kind of The boundaries around answering the question

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Who are the saved ones And I think this is a really brilliant place to do it But I understand why not everybody understood it

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Matthew your thoughts Certainly the work Of atonement and intercession

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Are intimately connected The act

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On Yom Kippur Of the high priest going into The holy place and dying

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If anything was out of If he had not completed his ceremonial rituals And cleansing and all that correctly

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And making intercession but then having to do it Over and over and over and over again And the entire argument of the book of Hebrews Is that Christ is both a better high priest and a better sacrifice

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Yes of course Hebrews is the most As far as I'm aware it's the most

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Extended treatment on the subject Of atonement in the New Testament I think I don't know where else you could really

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I mean like Jake said Maybe some verses here and there You know there's plenty about Christ dying for his sheep

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And all that kind of thing but like The idea of Actual theonistos revelation

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On atonement The best treatment of it is in Hebrews It's somewhat Unsurprising to me that that's where White wanted to go

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I mean it was It was Romans 8 and then Hebrews 7 And both of those are intercessory

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Texts and so That is a common place That he would go Without getting

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Over my skis I would just say If I were to write the script for a James White debate On this subject

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I would have Not to the level of detail of course But as far as broad strokes If I were to outline it in bullet points

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His opening statement is exactly what I would have Expected him to make What does it mean to be over your skis?

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I've not heard that before It means to be Overeager it means to be Your center of balance is too far forward

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Because you want to get going but then you tumble Yeah It would be like I know that's not anything to do with the debate

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I just anytime I hear Colloquialism I'm not familiar with I'm like What does that mean? I'll give you an example

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If I pulled out my Strong's Concordance and tried to make Some super in -depth point About the particular tense of a verb

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And we're going to get into a little bit of original languages later I'll just tell the listener And to you guys too I don't have the skills to do that I'm not versed in the original languages

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I know a foreign language So I do understand some of the intricacies of translation And how you can lose stuff

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So I'm familiar with that in concept But I would be getting out over my skis If I were to try and make

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Some very in -depth Original language points let's say Speaking of Would you pull up my screen really quick?

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Sure can do that right now Jake is running BibleWorks There you go So people who are a thousand years old will recognize this program

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Which no longer exists anymore But I'm not willing to take out a second mortgage To get logos Here's the operative phrase

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So you can see it here in the NASV And here it is in the Greek It's those who draw near Which is this participle

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So those of you who like to argue about John 3 16 And the whosoever being a participle It's the drawing near ones

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To God Those who draw near to God But here's what matters The through him

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These are the ones who draw near through him This is a preposition that says It is through God's work that the ones draw near Not through their own belief

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Not through faith provided to them I'm sure we'll get into provisionism later But this phrase right here

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Matters so much for this argument And so I just wanted you to see that The King James renders it by him

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Which is also in view Because that puts more of the emphasis On who does the drawing

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On to God Now the provisionist might try to find A little like You know

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Crack that they can say Yeah he provided a way I just don't think that's what the force of the preposition

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Is saying So I wanted to point out this text Absolutely And I Can I take it down now

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Yeah yeah And we'll bring it back up When we get to the next part

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But real quick I did hear one argument In fact I think

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If I remember correctly I think Leighton Tweeted this After the debate he said when

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James White Made this argument the guy beside him I don't know who it is Said yes they're the ones drawing near So focusing again

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On them doing the work of Coming to Coming to Christ So that's the argument that they make

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At least not The argument that this person made And I guess Leighton You know thought it was

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Worthy of retweeting But they're the ones doing it They're the ones drawing near I mean it really is it does come down to a

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Question of who does Who is the one that's Active in the drawing God or The person is drawing himself or moving

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Toward so That's just an interesting little side note There if you guys want to comment on that or we can move on To the next thing

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Ultimately it pushes the burden back to having a doctrine of regeneration You have to have a

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Doctrine of regeneration You can say all day long that this offer was made To everybody but the question is

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Who will be the ones that take the offer It is the ones who are actively regenerated Or it isn't

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But there's no middle ground between Those two options Also last night

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We're doing this on Friday morning March 8th And it'll go out later today Lord willing But last night was

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The James White John 6th debate That was funny Almost lost your background there

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The James White Leighton Flowers John 6th debate

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And this question did come up the question of Is conversion A I forgot whether he says was it a miraculous

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Act or something but people can go watch the video and see It's interesting to hear how Leighton Responded to that is regeneration

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A Is I forget a miraculous act or something

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People should look that up because it's Interesting how he responded Alright so we're going to move on Now do you guys want to hear

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Another part of James White or do you want to move on to Our First Jason Breda part

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I think if possible let's Try and stay chronological in the debate So that the listener can I know we're taking

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Excerpts but to try not to get out Of order in as far as how it was presented Because this was a traditional

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Oxford debate in which opening Rebuttal cross Closing so yeah

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And I've got it out of the way so this is Yeah Okay well let's just hear this only this only 45 seconds

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So we'll listen to this part Of the coming work of Jesus Christ And so what that means is we have to bring

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Together and keep together The biblical teaching of What the high priest did

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So it's not just the offering Itself but then The intercession the fact

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That the son appears in the Presence of the father in Our place and intercedes

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For us what is he presenting What is he doing is that some Extra work beyond the cross

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No it is the presentation Of that finished work and That means we can look at what the new

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Testament teaches about intercession And intercession Is very clearly made for a specific

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People for one real reason It always works Yeah that's the

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Heart of his argument that that that really just Sort of reaffirmed what what he said And that I think that was the end of his

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Opening statement so Go ahead I think what matters here and when

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We get into Brady's argument what's most Important is Dr. White is making a biblical Theology argument entirely from The text this is an

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Argument that goes that spans both testaments That which is what Hebrews is doing to Say here is how you understood

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Atonement before and now How that has taught us something about what Christ Is doing it's all from the text

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And it's it's a not a systematic Theology right because us Calvinists we get Blamed all the time for being obsessed with our

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Systematic he's not making a systematics Argument he's making a biblical theology argument which Is about the continuity of The work over time

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So and that's why this what He's saying matters right what did the High Priest of Israel accomplish

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Well that's what Christ is accomplishing in A different manner and so to Track his argument over both testaments is to Understand that he's saying this

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Is a Christological scriptural Framework right that That is entirely from the text

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And when we get to Brady we're going to see he doesn't Mention a text for seven or eight minutes So I mean this just the heart of how

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This argumentation is made I think makes a Big difference in how that plays out during cross Yeah Matthew any thoughts

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Before I move on to Breda's Nope I think we're good Alright so here's how I broke

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And we all had an opportunity to say what Parts we wanted to hear and You guys both sent me the ones that So here's how this is clipped out because I Have four of Breda's Statement Actually five in a row

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And they're all kind of short but he The first one he mentions first generation Reformers the second one he mentions

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Calvin's Greatest doctrine He mentions Owen But his central argument is

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His argument about Romans And how Romans chapter one through Eight has

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A focus on the Jewish people and There's an ambiguous antecedent in Romans Chapter one and So if I'm going to play one

25:00

Once it stops make any comments you want Then I'm going to go right to the next one because I'm just going to let you guys Say anything you want

25:06

But really getting to his central Argument is the goal so I just want people to kind of hear a smattering

25:12

Of what he had to say so here's his First clip Calvinist Dr. White is

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Holding to that be limited atonement Is the correct position and For someone like myself a former

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Calvinist Holding to an unlimited atonement Is not biblical nor Important or even a reformed position at all

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However Did you know that scholars Say that the first generation Reformers held to a universal

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Atonement and in fact not just Held to it but rejected limited atonement Many respected theologians

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And historians such as Richard Muller affirm first generation Reformers such as Luther and Calvin Held to a universal atonement

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Limited atonement Wasn't a part of any reformers theological Framework until Theodore Beza 23 years after Calvin died

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And prior to Beza Most theologians Except for the exception of God's chalk

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A ninth century monk supported Universal atonement And when God's chalk presented limited

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Atonement it was rejected by three French councils So I actually feel confident in telling you that The first generation reformed doctrine

26:20

Of the atonement is biblical and Important because it emphasized what the early Church held on to and even what the

26:26

Early reformers held on to which was Unlimited atonement I do want to say

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I said I wasn't going to say anything but I have to At least at this point I have to make And I know when it comes to debate

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Matthew totally can eat my lunch As far as rules and things like that but this is Where I'm going to say as far as from the moderator's

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Perspective this is why I think the Thesis was not great because The thesis left this open as an argument

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Okay because when you say the reformed doctrine Of the atonement you then can go back And make the argument well this wasn't really

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Calvin's argument or this wasn't really Luther's view or this wasn't The view that was held it should have been

27:03

Is limited atonement Biblical or whatever I think There should have been or particular redemption

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Or something should have been in there because when you say The reformed doctrine of the atonement you get this kind Of argument that's my thought you guys

27:17

Oh oh oh oh Jake you're muted Start again

27:22

Sorry James White does say at one point Well why don't you just read our confessions Because there's a lot more of A unified view there and what it shows

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Is an ignorance of how historical theology Is done I mean you know I Especially love the idea well nobody believed

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This Calvinism stuff until the 15th century or 16th century Well yeah it's because we were you know killed on pain

27:42

Of death for disagreeing with the magisterium So no one was really allowed to disagree Until a certain point and then once They were allowed to disagree everyone

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Came up out of hiding and very slowly Over time kind of started Redoing the idea of councils

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Right why is Nicaea So late in the game well it's because they were Having to hide from the bad guys that were

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Going to kill them and it's the same thing in the reformation So the doctrine of a little bit of atonement Does develop over time but that doesn't mean

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That that if Calvin were involved In those later conversations he wouldn't have gone Along with it these things had to Be given some space and air to breathe

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And so first of all That's a stupid argument before that Brayden literally says you know

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You reformed guys something along the lines Of you know we get our argument From scripture but you guys get your argument from You know presuppositions and reading other guys

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And then he goes on to make what Seven references to other people God's shock

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Believe this Beza believe that Richard Muller believe this Like literally just appeal to authority

28:42

Appeal to authority so again That's just the you know the huge difference And one last thing I'll say is he keeps

28:48

Talking about universal atonement and Unlimited atonement and these are Really stupid phrases because Everybody who is an orthodox

28:55

Christian of any Stretch to include the synergist Believes in some sort of universal Or some sort of limited atonement

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This is sprawl this isn't me right Everybody limits the atonement to some degree Otherwise if Christ's atonement

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Was truly universal he would have Atoned even for the sin of disbelief in others Which is not something

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That we see unless you're universalist So it's just a super Weak argument all around nobody in that audience

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Cares what God's Chalk thinks Or how the doctrine developed over time And so this is just again this is

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I don't know the man I don't know his education I know that he's primarily a counselor He's into biblical counseling

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But what this shows is someone who doesn't really understand How historical doctrines develop Over time because we can say the same thing about The trinity we can say the same thing about any

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Eschatology that it isn't until Big councils meet over time or Big ecumenical groups meet over time

29:47

That these things are better articulated Matthew? Yeah a couple thoughts on that Keith can you repeat the word for word

29:56

Can you repeat the thesis of the debate just so I have it clear The reformed doctrine of the atonement

30:02

Is biblical and important Okay yeah so Which again is not something

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I think Even the last word important Important is A relative term what's important to me

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Might not be important to you So I think even that In a debate thesis just seems Difficult to argue

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Most debaters That I'll listen to usually in their intro Will say something like thank you all for being here We have a very important subject to discuss

30:29

That seems to be a fairly common intro And as a moderator when I'm doing intros I used to say thank you all for being here

30:35

This is a very important matter but I've stopped Doing that because one side's argument Might be the core of their argument

30:41

Might be this doesn't matter Right like it doesn't So I realized that I was undercutting one side

30:46

Or the other of the debate When I would intro that way so I don't do that anymore You know to me it seems

30:52

Kind of silly if you think a doctrine is completely Pointless and you're Showing up as an audience member to a debate

30:58

So that someone can prove how pointless this thing Is that seems a strange motivation But out of fairness I don't do that anymore

31:06

So Let's talk You know church history for a bit One of the critiques of dispensationalism

31:12

For instance is that this is a relatively Modern invention you have john nelson darby In the 1800s and prior to that His formulation really can't

31:20

Be found in church history And the dispensationalist will say well Calvinism couldn't be found before the 15th

31:26

And they'll say that's not a great argument and I agree On its face it's not but here's what A here's what a

31:32

A an argument that Says well this wasn't around until the X century should do is it should cause

31:38

Whoever hears it to say okay let's talk About why that is let's and that's what jake Was just saying is because we were prairie

31:44

Dogs getting our heads shot off every time we came Up out of the ground and so finally when there Was some safety uh you

31:49

Know nicaea could be convened and Then of course with rome Smacking down especially after the fourth

31:55

Ladder and council anyone who really disagreed With their theology the reformation Finally gave some space to breathe

32:01

You had uh the ad fontus Kind of back to the sources the greek New testaments were being printed the printing

32:07

Press a lot of of outside Things that god was was working to Make this happen occur

32:13

And so it's understandable why these things Don't necessarily come to light Until a certain time period now that Said um

32:21

Uh and oftentimes Um debate theses Between two people who really disagree

32:27

On something very much act like A negotiation between opposite Political parties and so you end up with a

32:33

Compromised bill um that Gets through congress or whatever and The issue with that is um

32:39

Scalia once said this about interpreting a Statute someone said well what if your interpretation Makes no sense and he goes well if the underlying

32:45

Law makes no sense then that's what i have to do My job is not to make a law Make sense because that presupposes

32:51

That whatever congress passes is always Logical and rational it's not so i Just have to work with what i've got and interpret it

32:57

As it says i'm not dunking on the Debate thesis but i will say if you have Imprecision in the debate thesis

33:03

It will result in two opening Statements that just diverge and diverge and Diverge and diverge and i'll say

33:09

This too um the The um The fact that a specific text

33:15

Wasn't identified so the james white Layton flowers romans 9 debate from 2015 or whenever that was

33:21

Gosh it's been nearly 10 years ago That one said does romans 9 teach Calvinism so that was targeted at a specific

33:27

Text and so if someone runs off and Goes not to say you can't bring in other scriptures But if you spend a majority of your time outside Of romans 9 that's a tell that you're not

33:35

Addressing the true subject of the Debate whereas this one though It says the reform

33:41

Doctrine of the atonement is biblical and Important you could i mean That there's a lot of freedom in that to address

33:47

What you wanted so unfortunately yes bretta And white were both using very different Methodologies but i i can't

33:53

Specifically say that bretta was breaking The rules of debate or he wasn't addressing The topic or whatever he was

33:59

Making a church history argument You could argue that the word biblical Was in there so he should have spent more time in the text

34:05

And i won't argue with that but Because the the Thesis did not him him in appropriately

34:12

He was able to do That now one last thing i'll just say The creeds have very

34:18

Particular phrasing for things And in fact one of the things with In the arian controversy

34:23

Was they kept having to make The creed a language more and more specific Because if you just said christ

34:30

And you know christ and and The son and the father of both god yeah Yeah we agree with that in in some sense but There was always some nuance so they had to Keep getting more specific more specific

34:40

More specific to finally pin them Down to something they would disagree with and That's where they stopped that's where the creed

34:46

Ended when they finally him to the men This thesis didn't necessarily Do that and force a debate to Go right to the text and so Again i'm not knocking

34:55

Anyone who was involved in the organization Of it i'm not saying that anyone had an Agenda in whatever i'm just saying

35:01

That it is unsurprising to me given The thesis that was given this is what We ended up with Yeah i don't know who i have no idea

35:09

Who came up with the thesis but i will Say this when i was talking to dr white before The debate we we had a nice Long conversation at my table he

35:17

Sat down with me and and i said Part of me feels like this Debate is actually going to be

35:23

About penal substitution rather Than about limited atonement and He kind of looked he said what do you mean i

35:29

Said well i said look at the thesis It doesn't say limited atonement it says the Reform doctrine of the atonement i said do you

35:35

Think he's going to come in and and Argue possibly against penal substitution And i nailed it because there's a portion

35:41

In the debate where he literally Says there's all kinds of views of the atonement And he brings up christus victor and things i don't

35:47

Have that clip but that's in there you can go back and find It so that really was It left a wide

35:53

Birth open for different Arguments and and really At the heart of it penal substitution could

35:59

Have been part of the debate And uh it wasn't the main part but Certainly is um when someone says

36:05

Well you know there wasn't any Limited atonement before beza there was No view of limited atonement someone could say yeah

36:11

Well there was no penal substitution view it was All christus victor it was all you know ransom Theory or whatever that preceded that And and and that's why white

36:19

During the cross x he says yes But this is you know do you not think the The apostles knew

36:25

What it was or no brita asked you not what if Do you think the apostles knew and he says yes Of course they did they knew what the

36:31

Doctrine of the atonement was yeah now I just i just wanted to say this because i've got the Transcript up here and and This is a little a little uh

36:39

Cut against dr. White was that in The romans 9 debate He and layton as they were going at it

36:45

Um no i'm sorry i'm Completely wrong it was not the romans 9 debate with Layton it was the steve tassi debate that Was the fun one okay so Yeah that was uh

36:55

Interesting uh he He asked tassi In cross is it possible you have any

37:01

Errors in your understanding of reformed theology And then tassi said sure i Guess so and then he said how would you know if You had errors in your in your understanding of reformed

37:09

Theology and he said well i would look At the scriptures then i would apply reason And white said that's a category

37:15

Error or he's in cross so he's asking Didn't you just make a category error trying To keep to the rules and he says wouldn't

37:21

It be to reference to the standard works Of reformed theology and so he Says i've read bushwell i've read and then he mentions

37:27

Ryrie which was kind of funny but anyway Um he lists off all these that he's Read okay so with that in mind

37:33

That was how white Pinned him on that he said in order to Understand reformed theology you would reference the

37:39

Standard works of reformed theology Well that's what That's what jason bretta did he

37:45

Addressed john owen he went back To the first generation reformers he He kind of Did what white was challenging tassi

37:53

To do now In his rebuttal and again i'm Looking at the transcript here james white in his

37:59

First 30 seconds or so he said And this is the youtube transcript there may Be some typological errors here so bear with me

38:05

He says um Let's see uh i This is james white speaking i never quoted

38:11

Calvin i didn't quote oh and i didn't quote any Of these individuals i gave a biblical presentation Um they're interesting to talk about I teach her church history so we could

38:19

Do it but i gave a biblical presentation Well okay But the problem is the word reformed

38:25

Was in the debate Thesis and so bretta was not out Of bounds to do what he did you can argue

38:31

It made for a poor debate you Can argue that they there were two ships passing In the night but he was doing

38:37

Exactly what james white challenged steve tassi To do reference the standard works of Performed theology now but But that then just shows

38:44

One that bretta calls himself I used to be a calvinist And he's definitely not reformed because As a reformed person

38:53

Where do we put our underline Of understanding for what The standard doctrines are it's

38:59

Not in the individual writings of any single person Reformed means having Confessions so You can't say

39:06

Calvin taught this swingly taught this Because we come together And we make confessions

39:12

And based on those confessions those are Doctrinal statements of agreement Of a reformed community so you can say calvin

39:18

Didn't agree with that but you can't say that's A reformed view a reformed view is what a Confession say and they do have more robust Uh drawing up of Limited tone well i

39:28

Think then the thesis should have made Reference and james white did a little bit But i think the thesis should have mentioned

39:34

Oh i agree 1689 something like that because again I was struck because i was i've been

39:40

Just anyway meeting Some some podcasts in my ears And stuff like that over the past couple of days

39:46

And so i went back and listened to that Because if you know the tassie debate it went all Over the place in terms of Different doctrines and stuff like that and and Watching it was the best example of two

39:56

People that were just Completely at odds with how you Conduct a debate and it wasn't even

40:02

Really a debate but but the point is that Cross x question caused a light bulb to Go off because i was like yes

40:08

James white said to understand Reformed theology wouldn't you reference The standard works of reformed theology and I do believe that's what bretta was trying to do so I i gotta give some credit to that All right i'm gonna uh

40:22

For the next there's two in a row They're both very short i'm gonna play Both of them and we can respond to Both so just and you're about to lose your

40:30

Background again jake All right the main reason i

40:36

Think that limited atonement holds so Strongly to men like dr. White is The fact that is the greatest theological

40:42

Position that supports calvinism's Highest theological position and That is unconditional election

40:48

All calvinists Agree on unconditional election And i think limited atonement is

40:54

Just the newest theological theory To support uh the Greatest doctrine for calvinism

41:00

Which is election i really Much of the arguments that Support limited atonement stem back to Owen's book and he presents

41:10

Theological and logical arguments But they're not biblical Literally every argument that Owen brings up in his book starts with the

41:18

General principle that determines The outcome of his presentation Before he takes you to the scriptures

41:24

To support it so Owen uses a deductive approach To interpretation not an inductive

41:30

Approach and a lot of Isogesis a few primary Examples are the covenant of Redemption all right so So two things there he says

41:41

That the reason why we hold the limited Atonement is because it supports unconditional Election i want to speak to that but I know jake you have something to say i'll let you go first But then he also mentions owens

41:51

Um basically saying Owen was a bad expositor because He said that owen uh

41:57

Started with a presupposition and then Went back and and read it into the text And so i mean that's that's classic

42:03

Isogesis so uh I have a thought on the um The unlimited atonement thing but go ahead jake

42:10

Well yeah so he he Calls the greatest Calvinist doctrine or whatever he says

42:15

Is unconditional election which again just Shows he was never a calvinist because That's not true the greatest

42:21

Calvinist doctrine the thing that i think Is the foundation upon which everything is built Is total depravity that we have

42:27

Total inability the entire Provisionist argument falls apart If total depravity is true

42:33

Because that means nobody is able To receive the Provision given by god

42:39

Um and just to touch Back on the clip before that when he's listing all These people calvin didn't believe that calvin didn't

42:45

Believe that bayes didn't believe that nobody believed it Well nobody believed provisionism either so let's Calm down that was invented 22 seconds

42:51

Ago so again that's a stupid argument Right but excuse me it's the traditional View that's what they call it to get

42:57

Sure it is yeah they have to they have to Resurrect pelagius and make pelagius a good guy To make that argument make sense but anyway

43:03

Um the concept that The we're doing this to support unconditional Election means you don't understand reform theology

43:10

It is man's inability that Requires the need for a limited Atonement and an unconditional election

43:15

And irresistible grace it is man's Inability to to take Uh acceptance of Of uh the offer of Salvation so again it's

43:26

Just a complete misunderstanding of who he's Up against or or i Never take anyone seriously when they say i used to be

43:32

A calvinist literally ever Should they perhaps just say they don't Understand reform theology and move along And move along it would say it was all a lot of time

43:42

It is funny though that you Point that out i i i smiled When you said it but you're right none

43:48

Of them none of them were provisionists either You know so to say you know they were you Know they didn't hold to this well yeah well they didn't hold

43:53

What you're saying either and that was that was Funny i thought that was funny all right So with that um i just Want to make this point and and this is gonna make

44:01

Some people's head explode and i know that i'm gonna get Some emails about this and that's fine Just know that i you know if it's

44:07

Very very long i won't read it if it's short Enough i might read it um just Just know yeah and he will forward

44:13

Them to jake to not read too Yeah yeah i just remember If you need to call me my number is 9 -1 -1

44:19

So yes that's it that's it Anyway so uh I I'm just i'm convinced i said

44:27

This yesterday when i was teaching because i was Teaching on uh in a group I said i think that limited atonement

44:33

Is the um is the one Doctrine that i think should be Embraced by both uh

44:39

Calvinists and non -calvinists together Because as i understand limited Atonement and what we're saying by Limited atonement i don't understand

44:47

Why it can't be affirmed Necessarily by someone who Even would hold to the view that A person can come by their own

44:55

Power or under their own strength or And i don't want to misrepresent The idea that they have the ability to receive

45:01

The gift that god has provided either Way the atonement is limited To those who believe and that's the point right

45:07

It's those who believe who receive The benefit of christ saving work And if somebody goes to hell they do

45:13

Not receive the benefit of the blood of the Cross which was was paying the penalty For their sin they're going to pay for The penalty of their sin in hell and so Either way i just don't see why

45:23

Someone would say the reason why you believe In limited atonement is because it supports Unconditional election i say no i believe in limited atonement

45:29

Because even if i weren't a calvinist I would have to believe in limited atonement jake said It earlier limits everyone limits

45:35

The atonement as you know we parrot sprowl Who said that it's just How and in what way but The the idea that this

45:43

This only exists to support Unconditional election i think Is a i just Think that's a bad argument in my opinion

45:51

And again i'm speaking you know You know that that's my thought So and i know matthew you you probably

45:57

Don't hold to the same view of limited atonement That i do but am i being Illogical to say that that That even if even as a non calvinist

46:05

I think someone could hold that perspective Um Well to to say

46:11

That the atonement So so bretta broke down i think it was It was

46:17

Uh extent application There were a few different words that he used to Surround the atonement and i think anybody

46:23

As jake said earlier i'm not Going to repeat it um anyone Who's not a complete universalist

46:29

Which even someone that many of us would consider Way off to our left like nt writes not a Universalist even Explicitly denies that and Um So Uh yes

46:42

Everyone limits the atonement in every Christian i think every orthodox christian Uh limits the atonement in In some way um at Some point right so Um you there's also

46:54

The the logical construction i've heard if He died for all the sins of all the people if he died For some of the sins of all the people if he

47:00

Died for all the sins of some of the people you know Etc um and and i think that's Useful a useful way to think about it too

47:06

Um i will say That hebrews text those who draw near To god right because that's what that's what

47:12

Layton and the others would jump on and Say well see you have to you have To draw near to god or else it doesn't you know it doesn't

47:18

Count um And there's an immediate anthropology Question there because Uh in reform theology um

47:26

Nobody does that unless the spirit Does something first and Uh and it's

47:32

A 100 percent of the people The spirit draws come and zero percent Of the of the people that the spirit does not

47:38

Draw do not come and so It is it does get into An anthropological argument like jake

47:44

Was saying it gets back to the t not the U necessarily um Uh but But the the the acrostic

47:52

Is intimately connected i mean Things start getting weird when you start knocking Out different points which is why i think

47:58

That the four -point calvinists such as They are called are In a weird spot um

48:03

I don't feel like i think a I think a full arminian or even A provisionist theology

48:10

You know though they have their Issues is more consistent than the four -point calvinist I'll just say that much

48:15

Um uh Yeah i had some more On that but i think i'll leave it there for the moment

48:22

All right so we're Going to get to brita's central Argument and this is this is the central Argument this is where he's going to talk

48:29

About romans and he's going to talk about The ambiguous antecedent get Get tighten your seats

48:35

Folks because we're just getting started We've been going for 48 minutes but we're going to keep going Because this is the part where We're going to actually look at some of the original

48:43

Language uh with jake and we're going to talk A little bit about this but for this Uh we're going to listen to two

48:49

Quick clips here the first one is on His central argument then we'll go into the next part Gentile and every believer

48:55

In general as the trinitarian harmony would Suggest paul is actually Speaking directly to his jewish audience

49:01

Here in chapter 8 But not just chapter 8 actually From the chapter 1 all the way back

49:08

So not only If this is true not only does this Go against the trinitarian harmony Theory it actually goes against the golden Chain of redemption and who the elect

49:17

Are so i tell you this is massively Big let me show You why and how all right

49:26

Before we get to the ambiguous antecedent The argument he just Made and he does make this argument through His opening statement is that really

49:33

We have missed the understanding of The golden chain because it really Isn't about everybody

49:39

It's only really god's relationship with The jewish people And i'm not trying to misrepresent him i'm just I sat behind him for you know

49:47

His 20 minute opening statement and i was really Trying to keep up with what With the time but also trying to keep up with what he was

49:53

Saying so that i made it make sense And i still don't know for sure Because later on he would say well it's not

49:59

Everything to the jews because certainly this is the gentiles Certainly this is to everybody So it just seems like You know sort of a mishmash

50:07

But thoughts I mean i'll get into it more once he makes

50:13

His point about the antecedent but What overall i want to keep People's minds on is the

50:19

History of how new testament letters Were presented so this Was a letter that was written to the church

50:25

It's not like there was a printing press So if there were a thousand christians in rome There weren't a thousand letters

50:30

There's usually one with some copies That somebody would read To the entire congregation

50:37

All at once so all church Of rome were all together on The lord's day i'm going to read you our letter from Our brother paul and it's not like hey

50:46

Greeks leave the room I'm just going to read the jew part and then Jews y 'all leave the room gentiles Come back i'm going to read your part

50:52

That's just that's so Ahistorical and ultimately Again i'm really not trying to be

50:58

Insulting to brita he really loves the lord And i love biblical counseling But he appears

51:04

To not be seminary trained So what we learn In seminary not just greek and Hebrew like words and letters

51:12

But we learn how discourse works It's called discourse analysis it's very Important for new testament letters

51:18

How is paul framing his argument And there are times he makes a good Point about roman 7 1 where he says

51:24

Right now i'm talking just to the jews But that's just for a sentence That's not for the rest of of the chapter

51:30

Or the next three chapters he's just saying Hey this point i'm talking to y 'all Um but overall

51:37

The point that he's making Fails when you when you diagram The discourse it utterly falls

51:42

Apart this is somebody who doesn't understand How greek construction works and and we'll get more Into the specifics of it later but keep your eye

51:48

On the prize who was The letter of romans written to writ large To the church at rome

51:54

Read to all of them at one time I think for interpretation purposes

52:03

Um i'm just Going to say effectively what jake said In different words something that has really challenged

52:08

Me when i'm going to teach or preach any text Is would What you just preached

52:14

Make sense to the people that this was Written to would the Romans who received paul's letter

52:20

Have understood Um what You just said um

52:26

And would they take the same Application that you did uh And and that's that's very

52:32

That's a critical point in your in Your hermeneutic because again i'm Reading transcript here um he says

52:39

He says Uh there's a Dividing line in the book to the jew first and Also to the greek romans 8 is not speaking

52:46

Jew and gentile and every believer in general as The trinitarian harmony would suggest paul's Actually speaking directly to his jewish audience here in Chapter 8 but not just chapter 8

52:54

Actually from chapter 1 all the way back so Uh if this is true not Only does it go against trinitarian

53:00

Harmony theory it actually goes against the golden chain Of redemption and i'm just thinking like It goes it goes

53:06

Again how do you go against The golden chain of redemption because This argument if and And i don't want to touch it too much but The letter to the hebrews is obviously

53:16

Written to jewish christians but if we're just gonna say Well that was written to jewish christians then why is it even In our bible like what do we need it for Then and Hey you're reading other people's you're reading

53:26

Other people's mail bro that's right yeah By the dispensation list don't don't read other People's mail well or the other thing

53:32

To say like yeah the pastoral Epistles well these were just written to timothy So they don't have any application to us

53:38

Like i'm sorry what You know and and so i'll just If you if you say hebrews

53:44

Was written only to the jews and romans one through Eight was only written to the jews then you have Gutted the new testament's

53:50

Teaching on intercession About all you've got left is there's one Mediator between god and man the man christ jesus

53:56

That's about all you've got if you're just Going to to put this in the Jews only you know category

54:02

So um he'll develop His argument further but uh yeah Let's let's listen to that as we do

54:09

Yeah i i only want to i want To add one thought before we go and i know We're just uh

54:14

Keep just things keep coming to Mind and this is this you made a good point Matthew you said if uh if this

54:20

Didn't make sense to the original audience then Then then we have to consider that i want to add A thought to that If other sermons that you have

54:28

Preached that this would That your argument against this would undercut Other sermons then

54:34

You got to consider that too and here's here's What i mean by that i don't know Jason brita but i know he's been i mean he's been

54:40

A christian for a long time he's been in ministry For a long time and i have to Assume that at some point he has preached

54:46

Romans 8 28 as A comfort that You know god is working all things together for Those who love him and if and If and if you take the the teeth

54:56

Out of the golden chain and say well this really isn't About us this is just about the jews Then then then you're also you know

55:02

How many sermons and i think godly Goodly sermons have been preached on the Comfort of romans 8 28 for all

55:08

Believers that god is working together all Things for your good you Know you're you're you're

55:13

Cutting off your nose to spite your face That is a colloquialism that i think Really could go along does that make

55:20

Is that making sense what i'm saying that that You're you're you're Absolutely saying is true what you're saying

55:26

Is true it might prove too much you might be Too much yeah but But even if what you're saying is true it's

55:32

That old uh satan brugge Meme right it's Even if what you're saying is true like when people

55:37

Say well you know romans 9 is Is not about individuals it's about nations And so i says well that's a lot of individuals

55:43

Then you know like it Even if that were true it still has Implications on the individual

55:49

So even if this were true that it's just About jews as james white says we better Hope that that's still true about Gentiles and then there's this other

55:57

Argument where people go well you know That's just for the jews Um that wasn't really meant for us like when people say

56:03

Oh well you know matthew the book of matthew Was only written for the jews Okay but like i'm not

56:09

Jewish people well you know Because it starts with the genealogy And so that's just because a jewish audience

56:15

Would understand that um gentlemen are either Of you jewish no Do you get the genealogy of matthew

56:21

Go what do i do i don't understand This what am i gonna do with this We're gentiles and we understand what's

56:27

Being said there in fact i would make the other Argument with matthew to say matthew is Catching the gentiles up like hey

56:32

Here's some headlines about the past that y 'all Want to get on board with and understand So again like Uh even if that were true

56:41

It doesn't mean that gentiles can't Understand synthesize and have implications For them which we'll see isn't the

56:47

Case as we get into roland's 113 Well i think that's why luke Records stephen's sermon in act 7

56:53

I mean to the audience which Was the pharisees you know the sanhedrin Sanhedrin specifically

56:59

He's just summarizing the old Testament bro they've got it all memorized what's The point of telling them this story what's the point

57:04

Of doing all exactly But luke had a point in recording All that now at the end stephen sticks the

57:10

Knife in and says and you killed you know the The messiah that was coming and that's when they Stoned him but what it's like 40 verses of Summarizing the old testament all the way from the

57:20

Patriarchs forward why even record that well because I think luke knew When he's writing to theophilus

57:27

Which is either A person or just a generic title of A friend of god He knew that This was going to be something that would be useful to Both you know to both jew and greek

57:39

I've got Something else but i'll we'll move on because we're yeah Go ahead Theophilus was almost the name of my son

57:46

Theodore we i Argued because my wife was called theo i said We go theophilus but she she

57:52

Was stuck with theodore so so Then we could say that We could say that luke acts only applies

57:58

To him and we don't have to worry Only written to your son To my 19 month old

58:04

Child that's right that's right All right here here's the central or here's the Ambiguous antecedent this one goes for A whole minute so it's a little longer video

58:11

But this is where we're gonna spend some time verse 13 It says i do not Want you to be unaware of Brothers that often i have

58:20

Planned to come to you and have Been prevented so far so that i may Have some fruit among you

58:25

Also even as among The rest of the gentiles Now you must affirm that there

58:32

Is an ambiguous antecedent in Verse 13 and this happens When this happens context

58:37

Defines who the audience is and Obviously this is crucial for biblical interpretation Many scholars

58:43

As well as calvin in his commentary skip past Or miss the ambiguous antecedent And i do think this is how a flawed

58:50

Interpretation gets passed on to others And they get popularized and then they get Assumed on as the truth

58:55

Paul expresses in ephesians and colossians And also at the end of romans His desire for all to understand

59:02

The mystery of the gospel That the gentiles are being grafted In if you go to chapter 16 of romans verse 25 and 26 in a paraphrase it says the

59:12

Revelation of the mystery has been Made known to all the gentiles Man And then matthew you came back

59:21

I was totally going to do a rapture joke He stepped away During the video and i was totally

59:27

Hoping your seat would be empty by the time That would mean that i was the only true And i'm not dispensationalist but i mean i was

59:33

The only true Is it only this music get Raptured is that yes I thought

59:43

I'm sorry all right guys Romans 1 13 There's an ambiguous antecedent

59:49

Uh take us home I can't i can't with This all right first of all yeah

59:55

Go ahead and show the screen it is not ambiguous It is not ambiguous It's right here james white says it

01:00:01

To all who are Beloved in rome Grace to y 'all

01:00:07

Okay grace to you all And from then on every time the second Person plural is used it

01:00:13

Refers to this audience that Does not change so when we get To let's let's take a closer look at seven here

01:00:19

I wish i had uh john piper's Little black screen with the Highlighter okay so To the those who are beloved

01:00:27

In rome This is really old This is okay no this is old

01:00:33

Ancient Yeah um grace To you all okay pronoun

01:00:39

Personal dative plural Referring to those who are beloved in rome That does not change in six

01:00:46

Verses there are no Other changes in the who you All you have to go to the nearest

01:00:51

Antecedent the nearest Antecedent in this Discourse is all so When he says brothers in thirteen

01:00:59

Right and i do not want you to be unaware brethren It has not changed Since to all who are beloved

01:01:05

In in rome now that tracks Grammatically that tracks theologically Paul would consider all the beloved

01:01:11

In god in rome to be his brothers So then he says and i'll get to the kicker That you all is there right there

01:01:17

You all you all You all and here's The kicker even as Among the rest of the

01:01:25

Gentiles that is so key So he's talking to y 'all as Compared to this other group who are the

01:01:31

Rest of the gentiles well does what does that mean That means some of the gentiles Are included in that you all

01:01:37

It must be otherwise The rest of the gentiles Would not have any structural

01:01:43

Sense in that sentence so 113 has not Changed the antecedent of the

01:01:49

Second person plural i don't Know where he got that i don't know how He supported that dr.

01:01:55

White who knows Greek a thousand thousand thousand Times better than me understands That better than i do but i think he was

01:02:01

Just so like startled by The silliness of this argument he Had a hard time formulating a cogent

01:02:07

Response because it's so Silly it doesn't make any sense Because it's not derived from the greek

01:02:13

It's not derived even from the english Grammar um that's Just how discourse analysis works

01:02:19

If you wanted to add an Antecedent to that you all That that second person plural

01:02:26

Coming from somewhere else We don't get to one of those until Later in the argument so that You wouldn't apply that previous in the argument

01:02:33

Does that make sense um so It's not ambiguous Nobody thinks that anybody who supports

01:02:40

That does not understand this Now let's listen not Everybody needs to know greek not everybody

01:02:45

Needs to do that but i wouldn't debate Dr. White Make my central argument about Grammar and Do so without greek

01:02:55

That's that's like going To d -day with a super soaker Um you're gonna be ashamed

01:03:02

Pretty quick i love That analogy d -day with a super soaker

01:03:07

I'm gonna write that down that was a good one Going to d -day with a okay All right matthew uh

01:03:13

You want me to leave this up or take it Down i gotta know um Well i'll just say in a larger

01:03:20

Sense the entire book of Romans bretta was correct in that it Is written as a message of reconciliation

01:03:25

Between jew and gentile i mean that that is True um Ephesians has a lot of that language

01:03:31

Tearing down that dividing wall of course but Romans itself Paul If Romans 1 through 8 is simply

01:03:41

Written to the jews then the entire Argument in in chapters 1 through 3 is completely

01:03:47

Pointless chapter 1 Paul addresses the universal sinfulness of man Chapter 2 he turns to the jews and says

01:03:53

You know you had an advantage in that you had The oracles of god and yet that's not enough Apparently because you also

01:03:59

Didn't keep the law and then 323 And i think james white made that point the whole all Sin and fall short of the glory of god you know we have

01:04:05

That on our romans road but the point In the in the argument is all Being the jew and the gentile

01:04:13

Require something To make them right before god And then he starts

01:04:18

In chapter 4 about it's it's Faith it's it and he makes the argument From abraham and so all i

01:04:24

All i gotta say is when Let me put it this way When i am talking

01:04:29

To a potential uh to a New christian about about them getting baptized Um you basically

01:04:35

Cannot give that a full treatment without Spending at least some time in roman 6 You you almost have to Now Under bretta's argument

01:04:45

I guess i'd have to first ask excuse Me are you a jewish of jewish Heritage or are you a gentile because that's

01:04:51

Going to depend that's going to change where i can Go to teach you about baptism like It doesn't

01:04:58

Right like that doesn't make any sense Um if if chapters One through if chapters one through eight

01:05:04

Are written just to jews And then he kind of backpedals on that a little bit And says well there's stuff we can glean from it or Whatever um he

01:05:11

Turned into a little bit of jello and you couldn't really Pin him down on that because i think that When when white just pushed back even

01:05:17

The littlest bit um it was a Needle to a balloon i mean there just wasn't anything Behind it he couldn't he couldn't

01:05:23

Back that point up and so you shouldn't make it Now white made quite a bit of hay In the rebuttal about how dangerous this would

01:05:29

Be and i i do agree with it uh That it would be but on cross man It did not hold up very well

01:05:36

Yeah I i want to say this the the I think

01:05:44

That um As since we're talking about ambiguity I think

01:05:49

That um jason's Opening statement was Somewhat ambiguous because i

01:05:55

Sat there i've listened to it twice i Listened to it live obviously Staring at the back of his head and then i

01:06:01

Listened to it again and i Still don't know exactly what he was saying Because i think if we were to say

01:06:08

Jason you're saying the First eight rom first eight chapters Of romans are to the jews

01:06:13

I think he would say well not really that's not Really my argument i'm just saying That that it yeah

01:06:19

Again that's why i think it's ambiguous if The issue if there's an issue of ambiguity here it's an Issue of what are you saying are you saying

01:06:25

Because when he's challenged on that later like you said In cross he's like well no obviously there are Implications here obviously this is for this and this is

01:06:31

Obviously this is to a gentile or this is That and it's like okay so The whole nailing jello right

01:06:37

You you you you're making an argument I'm not even sure you understand Much which makes me wonder

01:06:43

Where the yeah where the argument came From where where is this an argument he Arrived at exegetically or was this an

01:06:49

Argument that somebody said hey here's something you Can use to fight this battle here's a Tool here's a here's a sword that you've not yet Wielded but i'm going to give it to you

01:06:57

You know like me i i mean i'm A shooter right but i shoot with my guns when Somebody hands me their gun i don't always shoot

01:07:03

As well as someone else's gun because my Guns fit my hand and i know how to i Know how to manipulate my guns

01:07:09

Now i can pick up somebody else's gun that's similar and I can shoot it but if it's not my gun it's Probably not going to hit the same way

01:07:15

And so i know that may be A bad analogy but you get i totally Agree though i got i completely

01:07:21

Agree that he he Read this argument of someone else Liked it and Was not fully

01:07:28

Equipped to make it i mean that's just My my take on it as well is that Maybe somebody else

01:07:36

Was trying To make a similar point and Did so using roman 7 -1 as a turning point

01:07:43

Which i still don't agree with but You know Because you don't get that term ambiguous

01:07:49

Antecedent if you're already Not well versed in How the greek construction is going to Work here so i think he read a theory

01:07:57

Of somebody else's that maybe hasn't Been fully tested or fully vetted or no Idea where it came from and just wasn't

01:08:03

Comfortable enough in his own skin to defend It super well it is my opinion There's this

01:08:08

Meme picture that i posted recently About people using very harsh Biblical language it's a picture of Someone handing a what appears to be like A colt 45 to a raccoon

01:08:18

And the raccoon is just looking up at them like With wide eyes like what is happening while they're Just handing them a gun

01:08:25

And you know if you don't Know how to wield that properly it's Going to be a very bad thing so i've

01:08:30

Even asked you two gentlemen who have done some Original languages work i've said i Want to deepen my understanding and my ability

01:08:37

To take apart the scriptures but I don't want to be that first semester Greek guy how far do i need to go

01:08:43

To avoid that and jake gave some Answers on you need to get to at least intermediate And you know some stuff like that which is very helpful

01:08:49

I wouldn't want to A little greek's a dangerous thing And i wouldn't want to i wouldn't want to do

01:08:54

You know i wouldn't want to Misuse it in that way Two thoughts on this

01:09:01

Witnesses are a great example of that Yeah yeah jehovah's witnesses Are a great example of that they have a little

01:09:06

Bit more greek than your normal congregate And they completely misuse it in a wrong way Yeah Two things i just want to say on that So i mentioned him earlier

01:09:17

And this is very much Relevant to the whole nailing jello To the wall nt wright

01:09:22

Was asked one time you know what do you think about Predestination and so he goes to ephesians One and romans eight and he he talks

01:09:28

About and his argument is Kind of the same thing now he's The infamous example of nailing jello to the wall

01:09:34

Sometimes he says well i think What you have in romans eight is A condensed telling of the story of israel

01:09:41

That's the golden chain those whom he predestined These he also called these he goes That what that really is that's a condensed version

01:09:46

Talking about israel and i was like Okay but it's not Just that is it like but that that's

01:09:53

Where he stopped is is i guess to Avoid the further implication And not make concessions to Say reform theology he just said well

01:10:01

I think this is really about israel which is Not correct i don't think And that's kind of what bretta was

01:10:06

Doing so maybe that's where he got it from i don't know Now just One one other last thing and then i'll be

01:10:12

Done on my soapbox here something White will often say and some of My calvinist friends i love you dearly you

01:10:19

Too would never do such a thing is That whenever someone has A disagreement with a particular part

01:10:24

Of reform theology the answer is Well that's because it's your prideful Self and you just can't stand the

01:10:31

Idea that you're not in control And it's the it's the the Man's and james says this quite

01:10:37

A bit about latent flowers but i've had this Accusation made against me is anyone Who doesn't see it this way it must

01:10:43

Be because they demand to stay in Control and and they're just You know they they can't help but The idea that they don't have

01:10:51

They're not ultimately driving the train here And no that's not That's not always the case um there are

01:10:57

Honest objections i think to certain parts of Reform theology i think that The anyone who disagrees with me

01:11:03

Clearly is just self focused Is a really unfortunate argument tactic But it does

01:11:09

Happen sometimes and i think this Debate was an example of that because You have almost like in um

01:11:15

Looney tunes you have where They're reaching for just anything they can Like a street sign and a baseball bat

01:11:21

And a toaster just to whatever they've Got handy just to beat the other character with I think this romans 138 is really all about the jews

01:11:29

I think that just happened to be the toaster That was sitting nearby that fretta wanted to pick up And try and throw i i do

01:11:35

I really do think that Especially since some of its dave hunts Argumentation he is

01:11:41

Just grabbing whatever he can to Avoid the implications of reform theology I don't think everyone who objects does that But i do think that was going on in this case

01:11:50

Yeah i felt Like he wanted to ultimately in his Clothes he wanted to show boat Provisions that's where he wanted to go

01:11:57

Because at the end that's what he talked about Closing and so this is just how he got to That um which i just it was

01:12:03

It didn't work it's just Linguistically not there sorry So we've got

01:12:08

Two more they're very short Um and these do sort of Hit on what you just Said jake and that is the um

01:12:17

Sort of the last bit Of brita's presentation 222 uh i

01:12:23

Didn't put any of the cross i don't Think this maybe i did no this Is this is the

01:12:29

Well i'll let you hear this is a Comment that's very common There's one verse that contains every

01:12:35

Aspect of the atonement john 3 16 For god so loved the world The intent of the atonement

01:12:41

That he gave his only begotten Son that whoever Extent of the atonement

01:12:47

Believes in him should not perish But have eternal life Application of the atonement intent

01:12:53

Extent and application all in One verse I love

01:12:59

It because he just it's a bold move And and and yeah Well yeah

01:13:05

You caught me i had never considered that Verse before No not even that i i agree

01:13:11

I agree with both Of you it's a bold move you're throwing out the verse We've never thought of right no but Here's the thought he just made my point

01:13:20

Because he said intent Object And extent maybe what was the second one it was

01:13:26

Intense Something and then extent right But his word his third word was extent

01:13:32

Whosoever believes that's my point It's not it doesn't extend To everyone it extends to everyone who

01:13:38

Believes john 3 16 teaches Exactly what we're saying everyone Believes and so like Yes, okay stop

01:13:46

Agree and sit Down because that's that's the point right Like you can say

01:13:53

In percent Yeah, and there's Calvinist who would say That there is a universal aspect to The offer of the atonement or Something like that man not not not that we

01:14:04

Necessarily jake you and i would use that language There are some who would that they would talk about the The the good faith offer the gospel

01:14:10

Things like that the the general Offer the atonement uh or the or The or the the the salvation you

01:14:16

Know that that but in but at the End of the day it's those who Believe who and he said that's

01:14:22

The extent he literally just agreed With the Our position he was going

01:14:28

Against i know he would disagree with what i'm saying but That's that's how i saw that i was like i was like Dude you're there you're

01:14:34

Right where Yeah, okay Y 'all may y 'all may go

01:14:40

Had to have my moment Well i think you would play Every Calvinist Go ahead

01:14:48

I think i think i'll go This would agree with john 316 I'm gonna keep going

01:14:55

But agree with john 316 um we just Have the answer for who are the

01:15:01

Ones who believe the burden is On god The burden is not on the presenter

01:15:07

Of the gospel to be winsome Or convincing and to get To your point keith

01:15:13

Um that there Are roles within the trinity That make the good faith offer

01:15:19

Of atonement able to Be good faith In and we never they didn't go to john 644 and they should have jesus has no

01:15:27

One can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him So christ

01:15:33

Makes the offer of the atonement and it Is the father who sends The holy spirit to do the work

01:15:39

Of regeneration to draw Them to the son the son Is not dying um

01:15:45

I think with with in Mind who is coming to him it is the Father's work through the

01:15:50

Spirit that determines who Will be the ones who believe um i wish They had spent more time on on john 644

01:15:57

Um but but Just so silly to Come to james white with john 316 just such a silly strategy

01:16:05

Because he could Have been a lot meaner than he was Uh in responding to that part all

01:16:13

Right matthew you may go i think i think Bretta probably would back up Into six into 15 rather you know

01:16:19

Just as as moses lifted up the Serpent in the wilderness so the son of man must Also be lifted up for God loved the world in this way

01:16:27

As i've heard it probably Better translated not so much In terms of degree but so in terms

01:16:33

Of of i don't know if Methodology is the right word but in in Terms of uh qualitative He loved them in this way

01:16:41

And that's where the rest of the verse Goes um I don't want to put words in His mouth but i would imagine that That okay well then what's the what's the

01:16:50

Analogy or what's the old testament reference being made Here it's when the serpents are going And biting people in the camp and then god

01:16:57

Makes a a way by which you can be Saved moses crafts this golden snake And he holds it up and whoever looks upon the snake

01:17:03

Excuse me is Healed of the the venom Or the snake bites or whatever and so Then the argument is well you have to look

01:17:11

You you have to do something Right you have to be the one who looks you Have to that sort of thing

01:17:17

Um as we look at Other atonement passages you look at Yom Kippur or even passover

01:17:23

Which i think there's Elements of the cross that are both passover Because that's the last supper that they were

01:17:29

Celebrating and also day of atonement You have yeah i think you have two different Aspects in it

01:17:35

In passover Um there's this graphic goes around every time Near easter which i really really like and it says

01:17:41

That god didn't check Who was worthy um as long As the blood was on the door they were

01:17:47

They were saved right and Uh you know it didn't matter Um whether the person who did it really

01:17:53

Believed or not Like they they could have still been scared out of their Mind i think i don't want to say that it didn't matter if they

01:17:58

Believe or not they could have been scared out of their mind Not sure if it was going to work but the blood was sufficient As long as it was on the door post

01:18:04

Well again from the provisionist perspective They would say but they had to do something they had To put the blood up there and if they didn't put the blood

01:18:11

Up there then they were you know then they were They were cursed with the death of the firstborn And that's true as far as it goes

01:18:16

But then it does get back into the t and the u It's like well then who is the one who would Believe in john 3 16 who is

01:18:23

The one who would put the blood up there The reform position as far as i understand It would be only those who have been

01:18:28

Drawn by the spirit or Drawn by the father By the mechanism of the spirit and a regenerated

01:18:34

Heart if i've said that accurately Yeah I want to well You mentioned

01:18:42

Okay jake you mentioned Being drawn by the father I just i just found this i threw

01:18:48

This in here while you were talking This is for those who don't know There's a new book and notice

01:18:55

The title the title Of his new book is is is drawn By jesus this is late and i'm just noticing

01:19:01

I haven't read it it's got some funky Photoshop like distortion Going on right there by the the title on The spine i'm kind of wondering what's up there that's

01:19:09

That's oh it's because it was a 3d Photo and i did a screenshot that's my okay All right it was uh yeah yeah it was it was

01:19:15

One of those photos that moves uh you know I see it always makes me feel always makes Me feel like i'm underwater yes but the title

01:19:21

Is drawn drawn by jesus So i i can I again i have not read one word of the book

01:19:27

But my only assumption is That because i know it has to do with john 644 john 665 that That that that jesus draws

01:19:35

Everybody but it's a point that you made Jake that it's actually the father who is The one in the trinitarian

01:19:41

Uh economy it's the Father who draws it's the son who redeems it's the Spirit who regenerates you know those through The power of the spirit right

01:19:49

So yeah he's probably referring To john 12 where jesus says if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men

01:19:55

To myself but there are Reformed answers To that that are that are i mean perfectly

01:20:01

Well exegetical but i would assume that's Probably where he's drawing that distinction It did be in good charity with what i'm

01:20:07

Guessing is his his work Sure sure i just thought it was interesting That what you said in the title i don't know how

01:20:13

Many people saw that and hey and layton if you're Watching this and and and there's a pretty good chance You will uh then

01:20:19

You know uh i just plugged your book Uh i i didn't tell people not to Buy it i said here i haven't i have not

01:20:25

Read it so i can't endorse it or unendorse It i'm sure we would disagree but i will Say this uh if you want to know what layton has

01:20:31

To say you can get it from His uh his book All right and the debate he did

01:20:37

With dr. White last night we'll uh maybe We'll come back in a few weeks and review that guys if You guys want to do this again

01:20:43

All right so uh last one This one is the one that i thought was the The yeah well this

01:20:49

One is this one is the one uh You know and again i'm not not trying to be Negative or ugly or anything

01:20:55

I thought this one was a cheap shot Uh this is one that i thought was Unnecessary but um and i also

01:21:01

Think it's a bad argument that's not that's the Reason why i bring it up but i'll let you guys Uh this is our last video of the day

01:21:07

Um fascinating that martin luther Wrote a book called on the jews And their lies when he was

01:21:13

He was criticized for this for it being Uh hateful rhetoric and Anti -semitic uh not only

01:21:19

Luther but his hero augustine wrote A book called against the jews And could their disposition

01:21:25

Against the jews and the Influence the great influence that both Of these men had

01:21:31

Changed the course of christian teaching And the and the way that people interpret the Bible i think very much yes

01:21:37

So i All right so I'll let you guys go first but i have i

01:21:45

Have some real thoughts on this but Uh but y 'all go first Hello I got you buddy hello

01:21:56

Um yeah Uh i i have a screenshot that i have

01:22:01

Shared if you want to display that that this Was my thought on that I don't oh oh i i didn't see it okay

01:22:09

That that is my thought on That um the face That james white is making yes uh

01:22:14

For the list of james white is doing the double Handed interlaced finger forehead Face palm um

01:22:20

This is uh this is an advanced technique Uh that he's using here so there you go Um All right yeah um

01:22:30

Okay so Uh when silly people Say silly things online Um especially the cringe

01:22:37

Lutherans and i'm not putting all the lutherans In that bucket i'm saying the cringe lutherans And if if the shoe fits

01:22:43

Um then i'll just let that be Uh well you know luther believed this This and this so why don't you believe that and Roman catholics like to do that too i'm like yeah

01:22:51

Yeah luther was wrong And i can say that Because we are sola scriptura affirming

01:22:57

Protestants and like Yeah studying the people who were in That era and doing that thing is useful and All that but ultimately the scriptures

01:23:05

Reign and so if luther was Wrong about something that's fine because He couldn't reform the whole church in one

01:23:11

Generation it took time He was he moved the ball forward massively Uh and we're thankful for him

01:23:17

But just like athanasius had some Whackadoo theology on exaltation Just like gotts chalk probably had some things we didn't

01:23:23

Agree with um just like Even uh you know even 21st Century preachers that we tend to like especially

01:23:29

Your your more reformed guys at Shepherd's conference or whatever Um and i'm geez this is a hand

01:23:35

Grenade but up until like a about six Months ago or three months ago whenever It was um people would put allister

01:23:41

Begg in that category and now there's all sorts of varying Opinions about him um It's it's okay to say people had

01:23:47

Mulligans it's okay to say That uh people made mistakes And if you're attempting to do a character

01:23:53

Assassination On luther first off Very interesting target why would you not go

01:23:59

After calvin if you're in a debate on reform Theology right like all of us Would at least trace most of our

01:24:05

Protestant beliefs back to what Luther did and and a lot of the you Know things about that but this

01:24:11

Weird like Anti -semitism accusation against Luther in a debate on limited atonement

01:24:17

Makes absolutely no sense to me and further If you really want to get to some true anti -semitism Look at johan x book holy

01:24:23

Toledo that was way worse And he was luther's nemesis throughout most of The reformation period so like I i i

01:24:30

I'll say this keith i Respected i respected immensely the job that you did As moderator and if there had been an understanding

01:24:37

Of active moderation earlier in the debate I would have stopped it right there and i'm not i Don't think there was i'm not saying you should have intervened

01:24:43

But if when i when i talk To debate participants and i say do you want me To jump on him if he breaks debate rules

01:24:49

Most of the time they say no let you know Let it let the cream rise to the top But if it was to be a tightly

01:24:55

Moderated debate i would have i would have Fouled him and said nope get back on the topic right now That's dumb you said holy toledo

01:25:03

And that makes me so happy it's just Such a that that's such a great little Holy holy toledo i haven't heard that in a while So i just i mean it made me smile

01:25:10

So i love you so much all right Jake so Yeah so if i understand

01:25:16

The point he's trying to make if i'm Being generous I think what he's saying is

01:25:22

Like now my Argument about the roman Letter being written to jews is not

01:25:28

Popular and the reason it's not Popular is because A seed of antisemitism

01:25:34

Has been planted in the church For so long and that's why we Look at it that way

01:25:40

Um even as being Charitable as i can toward that argument it's Extremely insulting that that Serious bible scholars

01:25:48

Wouldn't reject that idea for other Reasons right it's the same thing today that You hear from woke people and they're like well if you

01:25:54

Don't believe that in systemic You know racism it's because you have A racist bias it's like Like what are you doing with that argument

01:26:02

This is about serious bible study if You could not come with the merits Of the greek prepositions

01:26:09

And pronouns and participles don't Come at me with this weird racist Ad hominem like i

01:26:15

Had a lot of respect for him up Until that point and then i was out At that point i was like bro like That just it's a super sign of Desperation like i get

01:26:25

It i wouldn't want to go up against james white on the greek grammar Either um but the dispensationalist They say the same thing right they're like The only reason you don't buy our argument is because You're antisemitic

01:26:35

And i believe That's a much more antisemitic Argument because we're saying we

01:26:41

Want jews to be one with Us in christ uh with With no distinction you know the way the new testament

01:26:47

Authors said so um in Reference to the picture that matthew Showed i i think i've

01:26:53

Told this story before in this podcast but i'll tell it again Really quick the three of us became friends because Of a debate that james white and michael brown did

01:26:58

At our church that i organized And matthew moderated and that's Where we met keith because he was a long time

01:27:05

Friend of these folks and and one of My favorite things in the world i wish i had brought it today i Don't have it is at the end of the debate i was

01:27:11

Cleaning up uh the table And on the table for james white And michael brown was a single slip of notepaper

01:27:17

Where they had been taking notes and i Don't know if it's dr browns or dr Whites but all it says on the note page

01:27:23

Was this is the least amount of notes I have ever taken during a debate Because it was just so The argumentation was so beneath Them that they didn't need to like keep

01:27:33

Track of a really difficult argument because There was really nothing to keep track Of so uh i just wanted

01:27:39

It to make that point that that's where this is at I have one more thing i want to Talk about that we didn't get a clip of Um so let me know what i could do that keith

01:27:47

I know i'm lagging a little bit behind so i'm gonna Pause out and then you tag me back in Okay So what i want to say about this

01:27:55

Luther uh and the jews Thing and this is gonna this is gonna Go along with what you said jake but it's gonna be

01:28:01

A little little different nuance on What you just said and This is the way i heard this argument

01:28:07

And i like you i'm trying To be charitable i'm trying to say this is what i think He was saying but i want to show

01:28:13

You where i think the issue is essentially He's saying luther was anti -semitic Therefore his

01:28:19

Interpretation of romans missed the jewish Argument right like luther luther Didn't like the jews therefore he didn't see that this was

01:28:25

Pointed to the jews Problem is again it proves Too much if that is what you're

01:28:31

Saying then what you're saying is what luther said About romans which is very Much the heart of protestantism

01:28:37

These doctrines that we call the Five solas which you say you affirm You say you affirm things like Sola gratia sola fide

01:28:44

Sola scriptura sola Christus you say you affirm these things These things are very much

01:28:50

Attributed to the discoveries and teachings Of men like martin luther so if you're Saying well luther really didn't understand romans

01:28:57

Because he had this anti -jewish bias Guess what dude you just cut the throat Of the protestant reformation and There is

01:29:05

More problems You're you're again if you prove this you've Proved too much so that's that's

01:29:11

It goes back to the same argument i made earlier You're throwing uh Complete everything you can

01:29:17

Not realizing that you're attacking More than what you think you're attacking So that's that's my that's my take

01:29:22

On this whole again i think it's a bad argument I think luther's anti -semitism Is not

01:29:29

Irrelevant but in in this case Has nothing to do with how we understand Romans so um it's not

01:29:35

Irrelevant to his life or to who he was as A man and we can talk about that but it's It's irrelevant to how he interpreted

01:29:40

Romans in my opinion so jake you have One more we don't want to have a clip but you have something You want to mention and let's do that Yeah i just saw this when i was

01:29:49

Watching it again this morning um in Breda's closing he kind of draws this big Emotional point around The calvinist doctrine

01:29:57

In the calvinist doctrine you Cannot go to a non -believer and say Jesus loves you and so There's no good news

01:30:05

And i was really thinking about that i'm like well Well yeah we don't Present the gospel by saying jesus loves you

01:30:11

Because nobody In the bible presents the gospel by saying Jesus loves you there isn't a single

01:30:17

Presentation in in the new testament Of an apostle Giving their sermon

01:30:22

With jesus loves you It's repent it's god has Appointed for you to die it's

01:30:28

You know this jesus whom you killed Um the gospel The good news of the gospel is not

01:30:34

That jesus loves you The gospel is that this Jesus is who he says he is

01:30:40

The king of the universe true god of true God who proved that by Raising from the dead and as a result he's

01:30:46

Going to draw a people unto himself For his glory and to me that Just shows kind of getting at matthew's point

01:30:52

Earlier i'm not going to say that people Reject calvinism because they have A certain pride but i

01:30:58

Think any synergist system Ultimately does have a man Centered anthropology

01:31:04

Which at the heart of it if you If you hide the ball or not is Humans deserve to go to heaven

01:31:10

Humans deserve a shot humans Deserve at least a chance To go to heaven um and And the calvinist theology does

01:31:18

Not start by saying jesus loves you Because theology says repent and run to Christ who is our only hope our only

01:31:23

Salvation and he is very loving And he will take those and Love them forever he loves

01:31:30

All of those um to the Uttermost um but no i'm not Going to say jesus loves you because not a single person in the

01:31:36

Bible went to a non -believer and said jesus Loves you it's an unbiblical perspective It's a man -centered perspective so it just Kind of showed at the end he showed all of his cards

01:31:44

Which were he wasn't there to talk about limited Atonement he was there to talk about provisionism Yeah and and i will say that i

01:31:52

Think that the um The the arguments that were made Were pushing towards the provisionist

01:31:58

Perspective not so much Arguing against limited atonement but limited Atonement doesn't fit at least they don't think it fits

01:32:04

Within their system and therefore That that became the basis on Which to argue for that Matthew you have any any

01:32:12

Thoughts on what he uh what what jake said Um i'll just Say i when

01:32:18

I'm declaring The counsel of god to people Um i'm very careful

01:32:24

In my language i actually don't i actually Don't say things like um and i'm Not afraid of this terminology i just think it's

01:32:30

Better and sharper to say it differently Um i don't like to say If you have been saved then

01:32:36

This or that is true for you i like to say if You are in christ because Um unfortunately a lot of people

01:32:42

Have a uh altar call shake The preacher's hand moment and they think yeah I did i did saved i got saved i

01:32:48

Did the thing and so i'll i'll I'll use different i won't run away From the fact to say that those who are

01:32:54

You know in christ have been saved but i'll I'll say if you are in christ then this Is true if you're not in christ then you know then

01:33:00

This is true and i think that That going on the Whole like calvinist can't say

01:33:06

You know jesus loves you And so you know whatever i mean In a

01:33:12

Sense yes and in a sense No i don't have any i think i You gentlemen tell me if you think this is true i

01:33:18

Think it would be perfectly consistent with Performed theology to say um To all who would bow the knee to Jesus you have to understand that he loves you

01:33:26

And you have a perfect savior because you're you're Getting the The um you're making a

01:33:32

Differentiation there you're putting a conditional Out there which is the case that that is True um and so I don't think that argument holds much weight michael brown

01:33:40

Is a big fan of that one too um he's Like i can preach and say to a whole crowd jesus Loved you and died for you and you can't do

01:33:46

That and um I mean you you still kind of can You still kind of can look at the crowd and Say to all who will call upon the name of The lord you will be saved i mean that's

01:33:56

You know that's joel quoted at Pentecost so i don't yeah i don't Find that a persuasive argument um

01:34:02

Yeah yeah and and i Would add i would say uh There's there's two

01:34:08

Different things here um And i and if anybody wants my Or to hear a perspective

01:34:14

On this i did a show with michael schultz On the love of god i think it went really well And and he and he talks about it we

01:34:20

And he and i discussed the different views of the love Of god and calvinism and things like that I think it's possible to say to a group of people

01:34:26

God loves you i don't i I i like you said jake it's not Something we see that's not the way

01:34:32

The gospel is shared typically in the Gospels i think it's different Than saying god loves you than saying christ died

01:34:38

For you i think that is a different distinction Uh to say you know there is a There's a there's an omni omnibeneficence

01:34:45

In god that we see That is in that is consistent with his Nature that we can express to all men that all

01:34:50

Men receive the the benefit Of his loving kindness uh As part of his common grace that all men receive

01:34:56

And so we can certainly say those things And yet at the same time we can say Uh we we shouldn't say i don't think

01:35:02

I i don't think it there's nowhere in Scripture nowhere that even would would Would support the idea of going up and saying

01:35:08

Hey jesus died for you therefore Believe in him right that's just not the Method that we see and And so that's where i would probably draw that line

01:35:16

So if if michael brown says i can stand in Front of anybody and say god loves you well I can say that too but when you say god

01:35:22

Christ died for you that's where i do think the Distinction is and and even then that We could say well in what way and What do we mean and by what extent

01:35:30

And certainly do you believe that that Person who goes to hell receives the same saving Benefits of the cross that the person who doesn't

01:35:37

And therein is the issue right There's the there have been everyone A lot i'm a lot more interested in the question of Do you have peace with god that's

01:35:44

A lot more important question with me do you have Peace with god when god looks at you Though he loves you because he provides you breath

01:35:50

And sunshine and rain those are all Wonderful things but when he Looks at you

01:35:56

Christ he sees your sin and he hates Wickedness but if you are in christ when He sees you then he sees his beloved

01:36:02

Son and he can pour all of his covenant Love and faithfulness and you have peace With him so this is just one of those

01:36:08

Things to say jesus died for you that's Just that's like a billy graham ism that Is not a biblical witness it's

01:36:14

Not a historical witness it's something that's Just novel in Kind of the new charles finney world of How evangelism is done and It sounds really pious and sounds

01:36:25

Really righteous and sounds really loving But it's not biblical what's biblical That's all that matters to me i'm done

01:36:31

Yep All right well hey since we're since we're at the end I gotta i gotta i gotta at least show

01:36:36

This part this was my shining moment Do you believe that the Apostles properly understood

01:36:42

The atonement of course Okay um If the apostles did

01:36:48

How come it wasn't until the end of the 16th century that limited atonement Became the position that was held

01:36:54

To uh, let me point out again Um, have you um Have you read iranians?

01:37:01

Isn't that a lot of Asked questions i'm i'm Okay. All right. Thank you Very much.

01:37:07

Keith. I will get you later for that Um Okay, I can't That was my best part of the debate

01:37:14

I got to stop I learned That from you. I felt like that kid in the commercials Back with the with the dad finds him

01:37:20

Doing drugs who do who taught you this I learned it from you like yeah I learned it from watching you

01:37:27

Throw the flag When I when I when I mailed He looked at me and he do it

01:37:32

He said i'll get you later. So I just Had to throw that in there. I did have that one saved No good for you.

01:37:37

I love dr White but then he's so he's So small when like two minutes later He whispers to you he's

01:37:44

Going over that was one Of the funniest parts of the debate remember that one Yeah, that was he nailed

01:37:50

Me back. He just got me just like guys Equalize the scales Well guys thank y 'all

01:37:58

For coming on uh, we've gone now For an hour and 40, but I tell you what I Think it was very insightful.

01:38:04

Um I know there's going to be people who have a lot Of thoughts and feel free to call Jake his number is 9 -1 -1

01:38:10

You can do that and he'll He'll be happy to answer any of your Questions, uh, but guys

01:38:16

If you want to sign off give any final thoughts Yeah, yeah, if you would like to Uh write out a long treatise in the youtube

01:38:22

Comments, please do so and jake and I Will be absolutely sure to not read them. We Are not reading any of them.

01:38:27

So please feel Free to expend all of your ammo there Um, it'd be great. It's a good Use of your time.

01:38:33

That's sarcasm. Um No in in closing. I'll Never feed the trolls Never feed the trolls, right?

01:38:39

Uh, no In closing. I think I think this Is an important issue. Um Something that I say just from a pastoral

01:38:46

Perspective is um The death Of jesus on the cross and When we ask the question or we

01:38:54

Make the statement did jesus die for your Sins or or we make the statement Jesus died for your sins

01:39:00

It's an important question But what I liked about this debate is it Got to what I think is actually

01:39:06

I don't want to say more important but more Impactful to me personally just on a personal level The intercessory work

01:39:12

I don't want to say it means more To me but the fact that it is Present and ongoing um we

01:39:18

All sin we all still fail and Struggle and sometimes I find Myself having doubts like Um well that was something that happened two thousand

01:39:26

Years ago and it's a detached historical Tragedy or whatever but the way I The way I teach soteriology

01:39:32

Salvation and I have to remind myself is Every time Those who are in christ and I keep using that language

01:39:38

Every time those who are in christ sin Christ is before the father and he says I paid for that one and I paid for that one

01:39:44

And I paid for that one and I paid for that one And every single time he does so That is perfectly and completely accepted by the

01:39:50

Father and you're still standing there in the righteousness Of christ if this If you got anything out of this debate more than Just flinging accusations of anti Semitism which is really unfortunate that that even

01:40:00

Happened you need to know That if you are in christ you have an Advocate before the father who will perfectly

01:40:06

Plead your case and it's a present tense Reality he ever lives To make intercession

01:40:12

The cross was a one and done to tell us I it is finished and I'm glad that it was I'm Glad that we do not have a representation of christ

01:40:18

On the altar every week But the intercessory work Is ongoing and you have a present tense

01:40:24

Advocate for you and I think that That's the beautiful truth out of this Debate that I hope we can focus on Amen Amen jake any last words

01:40:38

Yeah, I just want to say The end result of this is where James white started James White started with That he is able to save to the uttermost

01:40:49

Those who draw near to god through him My savior is able to save Everyone whom he intends to save There will not be a single person at the end

01:40:57

That christ looks at and goes oh I really wanted To save you but I couldn't I really wanted to save you but You wouldn't let me that will not happen

01:41:05

At the end of days my savior is able Please come hang out with us Just say you don't understand reform theology

01:41:11

And move along on facebook I don't debate theology online But I would love to have you and share memes

01:41:17

And we can learn about Stuff together but seriously Do not at me about this video

01:41:23

I will never read it ever And I will never respond to you thank you Alright guys thank you all for being a part of the show

01:41:32

And again I want to thank you guys for being On the your calvinist podcast I know it was a little long we went almost two hours

01:41:38

But I hope it was insightful And got an opportunity to really dig in On this issue again if you have

01:41:44

Thoughts for a future episode or somebody You'd like me to interview or a subject you'd like Me to address please send me an

01:41:50

Email at calvinistpodcasts At gmail .com also If you have an idea for a

01:41:56

News article For church soup you can Tag me on twitter or on Facebook with the hashtag

01:42:04

Church soup also if you Want to support the show go to Buymeacoffee .com

01:42:10

Slash your calvinist Last but not least as I've Been saying and I want to continue to Remember to bring this up this is all done

01:42:18

As part of a ministry of sovereign grace family Church if you're in the jacksville area and you'd like To come and join us we are

01:42:26

Sgfcjacks .org Or you can watch us online You can go to sgfcjacks .org Or just go to youtube and type in Sgfcjacks thank you again

01:42:34

For watching your calvinist podcast My name is Keith Foskey And I've been your calvinist may god