June 29, 2022 Show with Ron Glass on “A Classic, Calvinistic Dispensationalist Examines Ultra Dispensationalism, Progressive Dispensationalism, & Progressive Covenantalism”

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June 30, 2022

June 29, 2022 RON GLASS, Former Adjunct Professor of Bible Exposition at Talbot School of School of Theology & before his retirement from pastoral ministry (1993 – 2018) was the pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, NY (the very first sponsor of “Iron Sharpens Iron” Radio), who will address: “A CLASSIC, CALVINIST DISPENSATIONALIST EXAMINES ULTRA DISPENSATIONALISM, PROGRESSIVE DISPENSATIONALISM, & PROGRESSIVE COVENANTALISM”

00:05: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown
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01:14: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:20: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day of June 2022.
01:35: I am interviewing a man who is very near and dear to my heart.
01:42: His name is Ron Glass, and he is one of the individuals that God has used to bring
01:52: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio back on the air when we relaunched after a four -year absence from the airways in 2015.
02:04: He was, at the time, pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York, and Ron was one of a few of my former advertisers on WNYG Radio.
02:22: It was confusing, two radio stations where I worked at, both of them.
02:29: And WNYG Radio is where Iron Sharpens Iron Radio began in Babylon, Long Island, and Ron was one of the largest supporters of that program.
02:43: And after going off the air subsequent to the passing of my late wife,
02:48: Julie, and finding it mentally impossible to conduct the program for a while,
02:57: Ron was one of those few voices in my ear urging me to go back on the air, and he actually, and he and Wading River Baptist Church made it financially possible for me to go back on the air, purchasing all the equipment
03:13: I needed for the studio, and so therefore I am obviously forever in his debt and the debt of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York.
03:26: Ron Glass is former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology, and before his retirement from pastoral ministry was the pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York, as I just mentioned, from 1993 to 2018.
03:46: Today we're going to be discussing an interesting topic. I am not personally a dispensationalist, but anyone who knows
03:54: Pastor Ron Glass knows that he is just as thoroughly committed to the doctrines of sovereign grace, known as Calvinism, as he is to dispensationalism, and some of my greatest heroes of the faith would be in that number, including
04:11: John MacArthur, and I consider Ron Glass one of my heroes of the faith, especially because of his love for me and this program and his commitment to see this program exist and continue.
04:28: Today we are going to be addressing the theme A Classic Calvinist Dispensationalist Examines Ultra -Dispensationalism,
04:36: Progressive Dispensationalism, and Progressive Covenantalism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio after a long absence,
04:46: Pastor Ron Glass. Thank you, Chris. It's great to be on the air with you again.
04:53: Yeah, it's great to be on the air with you as well. Well, I think a great point to start our discussion today is for you to define dispensationalism,
05:07: I think that would make sense, before we move on to cover ultra -dispensationalism, progressive dispensationalism, and progressive covenantalism.
05:20: So what is dispensationalism? I know that most Christians have likely heard that term.
05:27: I would not be surprised to know or learn, I don't know this as a statistical fact, but I would not be surprised to learn that most evangelicals are dispensationalists.
05:40: Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong there. But tell us, what does that mean? What is dispensationalism?
05:46: All right, so I started by saying I'm not sure. I think that more and more evangelicals would not define themselves as dispensationalists.
05:58: These other movements have sort of impacted dispensational thinking, and there is a danger in that, which is why we're talking about this.
06:09: Dispensationalism is simply a way of looking at biblical history, and it has strong implications as far as interpretation of Scripture as well.
06:21: Dispensationalists essentially see human history as divided into seven different areas, and we don't really have time here today to go into the criteria by which this is done.
06:34: It's not arbitrary. But let me just define a dispensation.
06:40: Let me give you three insights here. First of all, from Charles Briery, who is probably one of the most important writers in the dispensational world, he's defined it as a dispensation as a distinguishable economy in the outworking of God's purpose.
07:00: He uses the word economy because that actually is the English version or transliteration of the
07:07: Greek word from which we get the word economy, or economia, which is literally the law of the house.
07:16: And so it is the way in which God has been working out his purposes.
07:24: Now, one of the most important sources historically of dispensationalism was the
07:30: Schofield Reference Bible, and it defines a dispensation as being a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.
07:44: Now, in studying this over the years, I would suggest that there's more to that, to the definition than what
07:52: Schofield gives, or even Briery. So let me put it in these terms. This is kind of my putting it all together.
07:59: Dispensationalism views the world as a household run by God. Now, what is he doing?
08:06: And this would take a while to explain, but I'll just state it. He is reclaiming his sovereign authority over his property, his household, which is the world, under various stages of revelation by an ordered progression of administrations or stewardships or economies.
08:28: Those words are all words that can be used to translate dispensation.
08:34: Throughout a succession of time periods, there's a succession of ages or time periods.
08:40: That's true with all the dispensational schemes, by the way. There is a succession of periods.
08:46: May define them differently, but that's true of all of them. So what you're looking at is the way in which the scriptures put together the outworking of God's purposes in human history from beginning to the end.
09:06: And it's the way in which this whole plan of God is described by breaking it down into different eras or, in some cases, the word he's used is ethics, or dispensations, or periods, or ages.
09:29: Okay. And just for the sake of clarifying something, since you mentioned
09:38: Charles Ryrie, the issue of lordship salvation, which was perhaps even more a heated topic of debate and even church splits and all kinds of things that were going on, especially in the 1980s.
10:03: And I think that what provoked the public controversy seemed to be
10:10: John MacArthur's, I think, masterpiece, The Gospel According to Jesus.
10:16: Charles Ryrie was on the opposite side of that debate. And from what I know about you, I believe that you have always maintained, along with John MacArthur, that repentance is indeed a necessary evidence of salvation.
10:32: Well, yes, that's true. But that whole controversy really didn't have anything to do with dispensationalism.
10:37: That was something that came later. And I have some disagreement with MacArthur's book.
10:46: The first part of that book was good. The latter part, where he goes into the parables of the kingdom and all that,
10:56: I think, leaves a lot to be desired. But that's really not our discussion here.
11:03: The lordship salvation controversy did involve Ryrie, right? But it wasn't a dispensational issue, because there were other professors, other faculty members at Dallas Seminary, Jane Hodges, for example, who were dispensational, like Ryrie was, but who were on the opposite side when it came to lordship salvation.
11:31: So the two issues are separate. Yes, I just wanted to clarify that, because there may be many people in my audience, because they know my position of being a very strong advocate of lordship salvation.
11:46: They might be wondering what view you might hold, and I just wanted to clarify that.
11:53: So now that you have laid out a summary explanation of dispensationalism, and by the way,
12:00: I should interject here. One of the reasons we're even discussing this issue today is that I am arranging another,
12:08: I think this is going to be my third in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I'm arranging an eight -day eschatology marathon on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio that is likely going to take place in August.
12:25: And Ron Glass will be featured representing pre -tribulational, pre -millennialism during that eschatology marathon.
12:36: Each day I am going to have a different representative representing a different eschatological view, and I will keep you all updated as to the exact dates, because I'm not even fully aware, or I have not yet fully booked the exact dates of this marathon.
12:59: So I will keep you updated when I know exactly when it will air. But, having said that, let us move on now to some of these splinter groups, as it were, that have arisen, and the first one, which, knowing people who claim to represent all of these views, the first one to me is by far the most problematic, and I would even venture to call it heretical myself, which
13:36: I would not do necessarily with progressive dispensationalism or progressive covenantalism.
13:43: But ultra -dispensationalism seems to me by far the most dangerous, and if you could define that and explain when it came to be, to your knowledge, and the key points of departure from classic dispensationalism.
13:58: Okay. Ultra -dispensationalism is also sometimes called hyper -dispensationalism, and the difference between regular dispensationalism, traditional dispensationalism, and ultra -dispensationalism can basically be summed up in their view of when the
14:18: Church began. Dispensationalists believe that the Church began on the day of Pentecost, and ultra -dispensationalists believe that it began with the
14:32: Apostle Paul at some later date. Most identify it as the end of the
14:39: Book of Acts, where Paul basically tells the Jews who are visiting him in his
14:45: Roman imprisonment that they've had their chance and they've rejected him, and so the
14:52: Gospel is going to now be going to the Gentiles. So from Acts 28, which is the end of the
15:00: Book of Acts, they date the Church from that time and not from the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
15:09: So ultra -dispensationalism began with the scholarship of a man named
15:18: Ethelbert Bullinger. Now, he was an Anglican clergyman, a low
15:24: Anglican, low Church Anglican clergyman, who lived most of his life in the 19th century.
15:32: He was a very scholarly man. He produced some highly technical resources, concordance and some other things that are still used today.
15:45: But his view on dispensationalism gave rise to what's called ultra -dispensationalism.
15:54: According to Bullinger's dispensationalism, the Gospels and the Book of Acts are under the law.
16:01: So the Gospels and the Book of Acts have nothing to do with the Church, the
16:07: Gentile Church as we know it today. So the Church Age begins after the close of the
16:13: Book of Acts. The fullness of the revelation of what he called the Mystery Church Age is revealed in the prison epistles, in Ephesians and Philippians and Colossians.
16:25: Now, his influence today is reflected probably in the best -known of those places where it's known, is something called the
16:35: Grace Gospel Fellowship. The Grace Gospel Fellowship is not a large group, but it's a group of ultra -dispensationalists that they have several ministries.
16:50: They have something called the Grace Evangelical Society, which is based in Denton, Texas, the
16:56: Grace Christian University in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and a Berean Bible Society, which is now based in Germantown, Wisconsin.
17:06: So how do these ultra -dispensationalists differ from the dispensationalists in terms of their understanding of the ages or the dispensations, how history breaks down?
17:25: Well, they break it down into seven different ages, and just very briefly,
17:32: I'll run through the names of them, can't go into the details here, but they begin with the
17:37: Edenic state of innocence, which is not all that different from traditional dispensational thinking.
17:46: And then the second one, and that's in Genesis 1 -3, the creation and man in innocence, before the fall, in other words.
17:59: Then the second one, they uniquely name the period without the law, which would embrace what we who are traditional dispensationalists would call the dispensations of conscience and human government and promise.
18:20: So they look at this period, all rolled into one, from Genesis 4 through Exodus 19, which is
18:28: Israel at the foot of Mount Sinai, when God appears to Israel.
18:33: The third one is the period under the law, which they say extends from Exodus 19 through Acts 28.
18:42: And so they believe the Gospels, the four Gospels and the book of Acts all exist under law, and that concludes at the end of that.
18:53: Then they have the period of grace, which is the period of the history of the church.
19:00: That period ends with the day of the Lord. Then you have the epoch of judgment, in which what they do is they assign a separate dispensation to what we call the tribulation period, and this ends with the destruction of Antichrist.
19:20: Their sixth age is the millennial age, as in Revelation 20, and that ends with the destruction of Satan.
19:28: And then their final dispensation is the eternal state of glory, which traditional dispensationalism does not usually identify eternity as a dispensation.
19:44: So this is the eternal state of glory, which they say, correctly, will not end.
19:49: So those are the seven periods or epochs of ultra -dispensationalism.
19:55: Now, is it not true that one of the most aberrant aspects of this group is that they only believe the epistles of Paul are bonding upon the church today?
20:08: Yeah, and the thing about it is that some of them are— and there's a variety of opinions within ultra -dispensationalism.
20:20: Some of them actually see two churches. Some of them see what they call a Jewish church, which would be in the period prior to Paul, I guess.
20:34: It was the Gospels and Acts up to that point of Paul.
20:40: So what they would say, too, is that what we generally call the general epistles, which would be
20:47: Hebrews, and then James, and the epistles of Peter, and the epistles of John, Jude, these books, they say, are
21:01: Jewish. So the only real authority, biblical authority, for ultra -dispensationalists, or the
21:11: Gentile church now, are really the personal epistles of Paul. So, in other words, the other books of the
21:21: New Testament, and of course all of the Hebrew scriptures, the
21:27: Old Testament, would have been applicable and true and inerrant during their alleged dispensations to the audiences to which they were written.
21:39: Right. So they're not trying to claim that they are not inerrant, or fake, or what have you.
21:48: They're not viewing them like the apocryphal books or anything. They're just saying that in the current dispensation, all of those other books of the scriptures are non -applicable to the church.
22:05: Yeah, right. So, the distinctive problems with them, simply stated, first of all, they can't agree among themselves as to when the church began.
22:17: They all agree that it did not begin at Pentecost, but when it began exactly, they have differences of opinion.
22:26: Some say Acts 9, some say Acts 13, most say Acts 28. They just don't agree, except to say it did not begin at Pentecost.
22:36: So they believe that the Great Commission, as given by the Lord Jesus and Matthew and Mark, is
22:41: Jewish, and therefore the Great Commission is not for the church. The church does not acknowledge the
22:49: Great Commission as binding. Water baptism is not for the church age.
22:55: Now, there's a disagreement among these different divisions of ultra -dispensationalism as to whether the
23:03: Lord's Table is for the church today. Some say it is.
23:09: The Grace Gospel Fellowship, for example, they do observe the Lord's Table. Some of them don't.
23:16: So, all of them would say that water baptism is not for the church age.
23:23: They say that the church is not the Bride of Christ, that Israel is the
23:30: Bride of Christ, not the church. Now, the thing, too, is that, and this really isn't germane to ultra -dispensationalism, but they have gotten into some weird kinds of things.
23:44: Ethelbert Bollinger himself was kind of odd in this respect.
23:51: He believed in what today is usually called soul sleep. He believed that the spirit of a human being died with the body and then would be resurrected at the resurrection, so that the spirit is not functioning after death until the resurrection.
24:16: He belonged to an organization there in England that actually believed that the earth was flat, and he actually participated in some of their meetings and so on.
24:31: So, he had some strange views. There is some difference of opinion on regeneration, repentance, actually, and its necessity.
24:43: So, there are different views, but there were some.
24:49: Harry Ironside wrote a very severe critique of ultra -dispensationalism back in,
24:58: I think, the 1930s, in which he really essentially classified it as heresy.
25:08: Now, having been familiar with a few churches in this category, especially when
25:17: I was an employee of WMCA Radio in New Jersey at the time, now located in New York City, a
25:28: Salem Media affiliate, Salem Media being the largest Christian radio network in the world, when
25:35: I was working there, I became familiar with this group of ultra -dispensationalists.
25:42: Of course, they don't call themselves that, but one of them, a pastor in New Jersey, had a program on WMCA.
25:53: I don't know if he still does, but he was also teaching what we had mentioned at the outset of this program in our discussion on Charles Ryrie and the controversy and the debate over lordship salvation, whether repentance is necessary for salvation.
26:15: This pastor, and it seems that the group itself, strongly rejects the notion that repentance is necessary for salvation, and in fact, if you were to say that and teach that, you would be considered a heretic, because they view that as adding works to faith for salvation, which is obviously not what that means.
26:39: It is a required evidence of genuine saving faith, not a cause or an agent of actually becoming regenerate and born again and so on.
26:55: But is that your understanding as well? Once again, that doesn't seem to be the main focus of ultra -dispensational theology.
27:10: What they're talking about is primarily is the church, when the church began, and what part of Scripture applies to the church today and so on.
27:21: But yeah, I think that's true. You do have groups that are antithetical to repentance as required.
27:34: And I mean, that's what the whole lordship salvation issue is over. Right. And do you have anything...
27:43: Oh, I was going to ask you, how prevalent is this group? Is it dying out?
27:49: Is it on the rise? To your knowledge. Yeah, I don't really know, but I never encounter it.
28:00: I don't ever meet anybody who believes this. I don't see it in literature very much.
28:08: So I think it's a fairly small group, and they are not what
28:16: I would consider to be highly influential, certainly not in the dispensational orbit at all.
28:25: And the encounters that I have had with people who espouse that view, and of course,
28:34: I can't broad brush the group, because as you, I don't know a lot of people involved in it.
28:41: But when remembering having any kind of communication with those folks, they do not view their distinctives as a minor issue, as we don't.
28:57: And they were very combative and militant, from what I recall in my interactions.
29:05: My very rare, but real interactions with them.
29:11: Yeah. Where I ministered in Long Island, New York, there was a church that we had some minimal contact with.
29:24: Our softball teams played each other, that kind of thing. And they were of this persuasion, but they were certainly not militant.
29:35: They were always gracious. In fact, you're reminding me about that church and that pastor, and my communications with him were cordial as well.
29:45: Yeah. Before we move on to the other sects or splinter groups who separated themselves from classic dispensationalism, we have our first commercial break that we have to enter into.
30:00: And I hope that you all will send in e -mails.
30:06: If you have questions, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
30:15: USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
30:23: Our e -mail address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
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30:45: Let's say you are a member of a church that fits the description of any of the groups that we are discussing today, and you may have disagreements with your own elders or pastor over this issue or these issues.
31:04: We can understand that you would want to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question on Scripture, on eschatology, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
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43:04: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Welcome back, this is
43:11: Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, my guest today is an old friend of mine, a long -time friend, and the man who is largely responsible as being used as a tool in God's hand to bring
43:30: Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio back on the air in 2015 when we relaunched after relocating to Pennsylvania.
43:38: Ron Glass, former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology, and before his retirement was the pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York from 1993 to 2018.
43:54: We are discussing a classic Calvinist dispensationalist examines ultra -dispensationalism, progressive dispensationalism, and progressive covenantalism.
44:07: And if you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com chrisarnzen at gmail .com
44:12: We already addressed ultra -dispensationalism and its distinctives.
44:18: Now let's move on to progressive dispensationalism. I don't know the level of disagreement you have with these folks, but I personally am aware of Brothers in Christ that I know and love, who
44:33: I've even interviewed on this program, not on that issue, but on other issues.
44:39: So tell us your own opinion, and of course a definition of progressive dispensationalism.
44:48: Well, progressive dispensationalism is a revised or modified form of dispensationalism.
44:55: It first appeared in a meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society back in 1986.
45:04: The name was coined in 1991. The three leading dispensational proponents of this were
45:14: Craig Blazing and Daryl Bach, both of whom were faculty members at Dallas Theological Seminary.
45:26: And the third one was Robert Sose, who was a distinguished professor of theology at Talbot School of Theology.
45:35: All three of these were involved in writing books. Blazing and Bach edited a book called
45:42: Dispensationalism, Israel and the Church, The Search for Definition.
45:48: And then after that book, which had several contributors, the two of them authored a book called
45:54: Progressive Dispensationalism. And Robert Sose wrote a book called
46:00: The Case for Progressive Dispensationalism, or The Interface Between Dispensational and Non -Dispensational
46:09: Theology. That subtitle is very telling, that it's an interface between dispensational and non -dispensational theology.
46:18: Well, who was the non -dispensationalist involved in this? Primary one was a professor at Westminster named
46:31: Vern Coitras. He was a distinguished professor of New Testament. I believe he's still there.
46:37: Biblical Interpretation, Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary.
46:43: He wrote a book in 1987 entitled Understanding Dispensationalism.
46:49: Again, he's Presbyterian, so he was coming from a covenant theology standpoint.
46:57: So, what do the progressive dispensationalists believe?
47:04: Well, as I just pointed out from Sose's subtitle, they believe that a consensus between classic dispensationalism and covenant theology is possible.
47:20: Let me describe it this way. Let me reference politics for a moment.
47:27: We have heard over the years, especially in political election cycles, we hear candidates talk about the importance of reaching across the aisle, of trying to work together, trying to forge some kind of compromise or rapprochement between their positions.
47:54: What you find out, if you look at it very honestly, is it's always the Republicans who have to give.
48:01: The Democrats never compromise. So, what this rapprochement involves is the
48:08: Republicans compromising their views and coming over to some of the views of the Democrats. Well, that's the same thing you've got going on here.
48:16: The dispensationalists are the ones who have to compromise, and the covenant theologians don't.
48:25: One of the reasons for that is that the covenant theologians, especially the
48:31: Presbyterians, they are tied to the Westminster Confession of Faith, and they don't budge.
48:38: So, that kind of blows apart the idea that a consensus between the two positions is possible.
48:49: Now, the idea of unifying these different positions is based on the understanding of the kingdom of God.
49:01: They say that that's the unifying theme of biblical history, and that there's only one kingdom in both the
49:07: Old Testament and the New Testament. Now, the New Testament, according to progressive dispensationalists, actually introduces changes and additions to Old Testament revelation.
49:23: This strikes one of the most important principles. This also applies in the dispensational relationship with covenant theology, and that is that the
49:35: New Testament interprets the Old Testament. A dispensationalist, most evangelicals would say, no, you have to allow both testaments, or each testament, to speak for itself.
49:50: Now, it's true that in the New Testament we find fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, but we would deny that the
50:00: New Testament requires us to change or make additions to the
50:06: Old Testament. This is an idea that's called complementary hermeneutics, and the way progressive dispensationalists look at this is that traditional, literal, grammatical, historical interpretation of hermeneutics, which in legal parlance today would be called originalist interpretation, that alongside that is this complementary hermeneutics.
50:42: So it hasn't replaced literal interpretation, but it is placed alongside of it.
50:52: So, for example, the Church, they say, was not unrevealed in the
50:58: Old Testament. It was just unrealized. So, for example, they would say that the
51:04: Church is the new Israel. They are introducing a change or an addition to the
51:14: Old Testament. I mean, let's face it, anybody who just reads the Old Testament in an unbiased way would say there is no reference to the
51:23: Church in the Old Testament. Thus, the complete distinction between Israel and the Church needs to be revised.
51:31: So say the progressive dispensationalists. Now, they would say that the kingdom is all ready, but not yet.
51:43: That is, the new covenant and the Davidic reign have been inaugurated, and that was inaugurated by the coming of Christ.
51:54: But the kingdom has not reached its full manifestation.
52:01: So this phrase that they use sometimes, this present -future kingdom, awaits its final consummation in the
52:12: Millennium. Progressive dispensationalists still hold to the Millennium. Still, what they're saying is that Christ is now reigning in heaven from the throne of David.
52:23: And that's a similar view to covenant theology. Christ is reigning in heaven, either among the saints who have died and gone to heaven, or in the hearts of believers in the
52:38: Church today. New covenant is the form, so they say, in which the
52:45: Abrahamic covenant will be fulfilled. Now, that one escapes me. I don't understand that.
52:51: I would ask, how is that going to happen? So the purpose of God in history, they say, is
52:59: Christological. Christological meaning that they believe in what they call a holistic redemption.
53:07: In fact, Ron, let's pick up on holistic redemption when we return from the midway break, because we've got to go to that right now.
53:14: Just don't forget holistic redemption. And if anybody would like to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
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01:10:01: And that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Ron Glass. That's chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
01:10:08: chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Before I go to any listener questions,
01:10:15: Ron, you were right in the middle of a statement about progressive dispensationalism and holistic redemption.
01:10:23: If you could further explain what you were talking about. Well, what
01:10:28: I was saying was that the purpose of God in history, according to progressive dispensationalism, is
01:10:36: Christological. Sometimes they would say soteriological, focused on Christ and salvation.
01:10:46: Now that's different than traditional dispensationalism, which says that the purpose of God in history is goxological.
01:11:00: So what is the main thing that God is doing? In human history throughout the ages?
01:11:08: Well, the traditional dispensationalism says he's working all things out for his glory, whereas the covenant theology and progressive dispensationalism says his focus is on saving people,
01:11:23: Christological or soteriological. Now, progressive dispensationalism talks about a holistic redemption, in which they mean a redemption of all people in all areas of life.
01:11:39: And that includes social action, what they call kingdom righteousness. And so you're going to see progressive dispensationalists being far more interested in involvement in social issues than your traditional dispensationalists.
01:11:58: So according to the progressive dispensationalists, there are four dispensations.
01:12:08: And again, I'll just go through them very quickly. The first is the patriarchal, which is from Adam to Sinai.
01:12:18: And so they summarize four dispensations, traditional dispensationalists, into one,
01:12:26: Adam to Sinai. Then they have what they call the
01:12:31: Mosaic dispensation, which is Sinai to the ascension of Messiah. So from Moses and the people of Israel to the end of the ministry of Jesus.
01:12:42: And then they have a third dispensation that they call Ecclesial, meaning the church, the ascension of Christ to the second coming.
01:12:53: And then their final dispensation is Zionic, and that is divided into two parts.
01:13:02: The first part would be the millennium, and the second part would be the eternal state.
01:13:10: So those are their four dispensations, patriarchal, mosaic, ecclesial, and zionic. I would just say for people who are probably new to this, just remember this, that progressive dispensationalism sold the store.
01:13:27: They've given up many of the traditional dispensational convictions, and they have moved toward covenant theology.
01:13:36: And covenant theology, in turn, hasn't budged an inch. So dispensationalism is the loser in that.
01:13:45: Go ahead, I'm sorry. No, no, that's basically my overview of that.
01:13:51: And are progressive dispensationalists, and forgive me if you said this and I didn't hear you, are progressive dispensationalists still retaining a pre -tribulational, pre -millennial view of eschatology?
01:14:17: The issue really comes down to the distinction.
01:14:24: Do they make a distinction between Israel and the Church? That's really the main issue at stake.
01:14:35: Charles Ryrie said this was the sine qua non of dispensationalism. This whole question is, do you believe that there is a future for literal
01:14:46: Israel, or do you believe that somehow it's been absorbed into the
01:14:54: Church? The progressive dispensationalists see a unity between the
01:15:03: Jews and the Gentiles. They say, well, they've all been saved in Christ, and so they've all been made one.
01:15:12: But they also acknowledge the Abrahamic promises, and so they believe that God is still going to do for Abraham's seed what was originally promised to the people of Israel.
01:15:25: So Israel isn't transformed into another entity. Israel doesn't become the
01:15:31: Church. Even if, however, nations are added to the people of God, which they were after Pentecost.
01:15:41: We know that the Gospel went to many nations. But the progressive dispensationalists believe there's just one people of God.
01:15:53: And so there's a diversity that, what they say is a diversity in reconciliation.
01:16:02: Israel will remain among the nations.
01:16:08: So do they see a future kingdom, a restoration for national Israel? Yes, they do.
01:16:15: And they believe it will occur in the future. But they say that that will take place through the new heavens and the new earth.
01:16:30: So it's confusing as far as their view with regard to premillennialism and all of that.
01:16:44: They believe that there is a future for Israel, for the promised land, because the
01:16:53: New Testament adds or augments the original promises. So that's a little confusing, frankly.
01:17:03: And now we move on to the view of progressive covenantalism.
01:17:11: Yeah, now this is a newer view. So let me just answer the question first.
01:17:20: What is progressive covenantalism? Let me read you a definition from one of its primary advocates,
01:17:30: Stephen Wellam, who's a professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville.
01:17:37: This seems to be the hotbed of this thinking, and most of this has emerged out of Southern Seminary.
01:17:45: He says, and I quote, Progressive covenantalism argues that the
01:17:50: Bible presents a plurality of covenants, that's true, that progressively reveal our triune
01:17:59: God's one redemptive plan for his one people, which reach their fulfillment, uses the
01:18:10: Greek word here, telos, and terminus, in other words, the end, in Christ and the new covenant.
01:18:18: So what this is saying is that each redemptive ethic or dispensation, they don't like to use that word, but each redemptive ethic is marked off by a biblical covenant, and each covenant contributes to a unified plan, which is known through the progression of these covenants.
01:18:39: One covenant followed by another covenant, by another covenant, and as the covenants progress,
01:18:45: God's unified plan becomes apparent. They show how God's promises are all fulfilled in Christ, and how we are to live as God's new covenant people.
01:18:56: So they say that the covenants, again to quote, are the backbone of Scripture's entire storyline.
01:19:03: So everything is built on the idea of the covenants. Now, this way of thinking, progressive covenantalism, first appeared in a 2012 book called
01:19:17: Kingdom Through Covenant. Again, it was by Stephen Wellen and his friend and co -faculty member at Southern Seminary, Peter Gentry.
01:19:31: Stephen Wellen, Peter Gentry, that writes this book, Kingdom Through Covenant, published 2012.
01:19:39: Like covenant theology, progressive covenantalism generally interprets the
01:19:45: Old Testament by the New Testament in the name of progressive revelation. God's revelation, his redemptive purposes, and all culminate in Christ.
01:19:56: Now, it looks to me like if progressive dispensationalism were a series of changes that were coming primarily from traditional dispensationalists who were unhappy with some things there and were trying to forge a new way, it looks to me like this progressive covenantalism is essentially coming from the other direction, from the more covenant theology perspective.
01:20:28: And so they say God's revelation, God's redemptive purposes, all culminate in Christ.
01:20:36: Whatever that means, and I'm not always sure what they're saying, they confuse the universal kingdom of God with the mediatorial kingdom of God.
01:20:46: Now, that's a longer discussion. But what they are saying is that Christ is reigning now.
01:20:54: Now, we would say, yes, God rules over his creation. But earth is a special matter, and again, the details of this would be too much to go into here, but the fact is that Christ is not reigning now in the mediatorial sense.
01:21:14: He is not exercising his royal messianic authority over the earth.
01:21:20: We have biblical prophecy that makes it very clear that when Christ reigns, he reigns with a scepter of iron.
01:21:27: He reigns in absolute righteousness. And there's no way that the earth can be described in those terms at the present time.
01:21:35: So I would disagree with their view that Christ is reigning now.
01:21:41: Now, progressive covenantalism classifies biblical history into six ethics.
01:21:49: Again, they don't like the word dispensation, so they call them ethics. The first one is creation in Genesis 1 and 2.
01:21:57: The second one they call Noahic, and that embraces beginning in Genesis 9 with the covenant
01:22:03: God made with Noah. Then the Abrahamic. Now notice, these are covenants that God made.
01:22:10: In the book of Genesis, chapters 12, 15, 17, 18, 22, you have the promises to Abraham.
01:22:18: Then you have the Mosaic ethic, which is the old covenant, the law, which they believe is fulfilled in Christ.
01:22:26: Then you have the Davidic ethic, which is the epitome of the
01:22:32: Old Testament covenants, 2 Samuel 7, where God made a covenant with David.
01:22:37: And then the final one is the new covenant, which is stated in Jeremiah 31,
01:22:45: Jeremiah 33, also referenced in Hebrews 8, fulfilled in Christ, they say.
01:22:53: So the idea here is that the kingdom of God comes through the covenants.
01:23:01: So what about this? Let me just focus for a second on Israel under progressive covenantalism.
01:23:10: They say God has one people. So Israel and the church still have to be distinguished.
01:23:17: They don't blend them. The church is not the new Israel and does not replace the nation of Israel.
01:23:25: The church is God's new covenant people, which differs in nature and in structure from Israel.
01:23:32: But they see Christ as the antitype of Israel and of Adam. See, they view
01:23:38: Adam and Israel as types. All of God's promises to his people are fulfilled in Christ.
01:23:46: And they say that includes the land promise to Abraham and his seed.
01:23:52: The fulfillment that God has accomplished in Christ of his promises to Abraham include the land.
01:24:03: Now, I can't see that. Baptism does not correspond to circumcision as, for example, in covenant theology.
01:24:12: And they say that the reason for that is they are under different covenants.
01:24:19: So what do they say about Christ? Christ is currently reigning over his creation kingdom.
01:24:26: The realities of life in the future age to come have already come into the present age, but they are not yet in full.
01:24:35: So the future kingdom of Christ is here now in kind, continuity, and the present kingdom of Christ is going to increase under completion, that's discontinuity, when he returns.
01:24:49: This is similar to the inaugurated eschatology that you find in covenant theology.
01:24:54: And it's this view, which is so prevalent today, becoming more and more apparent in evangelicalism, of the already -not -yet way of thinking about the kingdom of God.
01:25:08: They bought into that. So they say, in Christ, the church, which is
01:25:13: God's new covenant people, receives all of God's promises. Now, when
01:25:19: I read that, I then ask, I would like to ask them, all right, they receive all of God's promises, what about all of God's curses?
01:25:30: They receive those two? They don't answer that one, of course. But they believe the church is part of the one elect people of God.
01:25:40: So just as a couple of examples of what I consider to be kind of absurd, and that is that Israel's restoration occurred at Pentecost.
01:25:53: Israel's restoration occurred at Pentecost. Okay, I don't see where they get that.
01:25:59: And then when they go to the book of Revelation, the 144 ,000 Jews, they're symbolically referred to the entire church.
01:26:08: Once again, how do you get that? How do you explain that from the text? I don't see it.
01:26:14: So what's wrong with covenant progressive, progressive covenantalism? One thing is that it assumes that every age, epic, or if you want to use dispensation, is defined by a biblical covenant.
01:26:27: But that's not the case. There are some ages that have no covenant. The innocence,
01:26:34: God did not make a covenant as such with Adam. There is no defined covenant at the beginning.
01:26:41: In the age of grace in which we're living now, the church age, there's no covenant. God has not made a covenant with the church.
01:26:49: And some of the, one in particular, the dispensation or the epic of the law, has more than one covenant.
01:26:57: It's got at least four. So there's no such creation covenant.
01:27:02: Covenants have to be identified as such. If you move away from that standard, you can get yourself in trouble.
01:27:09: The unifying factor in scripture then, for them, is not God's glory. It's not God's illogical, but it's his redemptive plan, which is defined by this progression of covenants.
01:27:26: So, they find types where I would argue that there are no types.
01:27:32: Israel, for example, is not called a type in scripture, but they identify it. Christ is not the true
01:27:39: Israel in whom the church becomes the Israel of God. So, you know, they claim that Christ has already inaugurated the future age.
01:27:53: You see, one of the things you've got to realize, this is, Paul makes a very clear statement in Romans chapter 9, verse 4, that the covenants belong to Israel.
01:28:04: He doesn't make covenant with a church. The covenants belong to Israel.
01:28:10: But they have blurred that distinction. And they say Christ fulfills all of God's covenant promises, and as such, he is the true
01:28:21: Israel who fulfills Israel's role, brings Israel's exile to its end in a new exodus.
01:28:28: And every, I'm quoting now, every aspect of Jesus' life and ministry and cross work, he fulfills all of the promises, instruction, and typological patterns of the previous covenants.
01:28:42: Now, this is all kind of fantastic, but that's what they say. So, I think we have to look at it and say that progressive covenantalism tends to destroy the original intent of the writers of biblical prophecy.
01:29:01: We have to insist that the biblical text means what it says, and that this is particularly true with regard to Israel and the church.
01:29:10: The new covenant is yet to be made with Israel and Judah, so says scripture, and more to the
01:29:20: Bible than just redemptive history. It's not just soteriology, but it's
01:29:25: God's glory. When I have wrestled through these movements, progressive covenantalism, progressive dispensationalism,
01:29:40: I just observed that they haven't accomplished much more than making biblical history and prophecy so complicated that most
01:29:49: Christians just don't care. When I read some of their literature and all, I'm reminded of Paul in Athens.
01:29:59: Now, all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new, and it seems to me that there's a lot of that kind of thinking going on in this.
01:30:14: I don't know whether it's for the sake of doctoral dissertations or publishing books or what, but it gets very complicated, and average people just don't get it.
01:30:24: And so I am perfectly content to stand with traditional dispensationalism.
01:30:34: Well, we're going to be taking our final break before reading any of our listener questions, and if you want to get in line, please send in your question as quickly as possible so that we don't run out of time before we have the opportunity to read your question.
01:30:52: The email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:30:57: As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away.
01:31:02: We'll be right back with Ron Glass after these messages. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend
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01:44:05: for Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. If you just tuned us in, you've tuned in rather late.
01:44:13: My guest today has been for the entire program, Ron Glass, former adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology.
01:44:22: And before his retirement from pastoral ministry, was the pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York, from 1993 to 2018.
01:44:32: This church was the very first sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio after relaunching the broadcast in 2015 after relocating to Pennsylvania.
01:44:45: I am forever in the debt of Pastor Ron and this church for believing in me and what
01:44:51: I am doing enough to get this program on the air again. And I thank you again,
01:44:58: Pastor Ron. In fact, Ron and Wading River Baptist Church sponsored this program, even knowing that I do have some disagreements with Ron, even on the subject we are addressing today.
01:45:11: I am a amillennialist and I am in the
01:45:16: Covenant Reform Baptist camp, but I still have great heroes of the faith who are dispensationalists.
01:45:25: We have some listeners who are waiting to have their questions asked.
01:45:30: We have one of the most faithful and loyal listeners and supporters of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.
01:45:40: Greetings, brothers. In the small amount of reading I've done about the early church,
01:45:45: I don't remember any of them being dispensational. When did dispensationalism enter into the church?
01:45:52: When did dispensationalism, I mean, enter into the church? Dispensationalism developed slowly, as did all aspects of theology.
01:46:10: There were, because of time, let me just put it as simply as I can.
01:46:16: The first generation of Christian theologians, the first hundred years or so following the death of the apostles, not in the second century, into the third century, there was very strong pre -millennial and pre -tribulational theology.
01:46:41: Dispensationalism, as it eventually grew into the 19th century, was obviously not yet in existence.
01:46:56: But the pre -millennial basis for dispensationalism and the pre -tribulational view, those were distinctive views of a number of the church fathers.
01:47:12: Now, what happened was that covenant thinking, amillennialism, began to take over with Augustine, and it's a long story, but essentially the pre -millennial view kind of disappeared, by and large disappeared, but never completely.
01:47:35: What you find, what's interesting, is that you have some very strong proto -dispensational views, especially emerging in the post -reformation era in England, but primarily in England.
01:47:53: There are a number of Puritans who actually held dispensational views.
01:47:59: Oh yeah, it doesn't look exactly like the dispensationalism of, say,
01:48:05: Darby or Smith -Scofield Bible, but they held those views. And if you want a very clear evidence of that,
01:48:12: Isaac Watts, a great hymn writer, was also a theologian, and he wrote a book in which he outlined dispensations remarkably similar to what eventually would distinguish
01:48:28: Darby and so on. So dispensationalism has been around in various forms.
01:48:36: The distinction between Israel and the church, the looking forward to the future, coming of Christ in a millennial kingdom, and a tribulation period, those ideas were in the church basically right from the beginning.
01:48:54: Well thanks, Grady. We have Robert in White Plains, New York, who asks, let's see,
01:49:06: I just had Robert's question in front of me, I'm looking for it right now, let me repeat our email address while I'm looking, chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:49:14: chrisarnson at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. While you're looking for that, let me just say in response to that last question, there is a book, it's a little bit tedious to read, but it is very informative on that last point, it's called
01:49:34: Dispensationalism Before Darby. In fact, I've seen that book advertised. Yes, that explains in great detail, probably more detail than readers want, but it's good in that respect.
01:49:49: Okay, Robert in White Plains, New York, asks, I heard Chris Orensen introduce the guest today as a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace.
01:50:01: I am confused as to why there seem to be very few dispensationalists who share that view.
01:50:08: I know that John MacArthur and the faculty at the Master's Seminary would be an exception, but am
01:50:16: I correct to say that Calvinism would be a very tiny minority view in dispensationalist circles?
01:50:26: Well, probably not as tiny as you might think, especially in more recent years.
01:50:32: A lot of the earlier dispensationalists emerged out of a more
01:50:38: Arminian kind of thinking, but it's not, again, it's not organically connected.
01:50:45: Dispensationalism is not organically connected to the Calvinistic Arminian debate.
01:50:53: There are a lot of dispensational Calvinists out there, a lot more than most people would think.
01:51:02: It's not dispensational, how can
01:51:07: I put this? There are those who would think that you cannot be a Calvinist and be a dispensationalist, but that just isn't true.
01:51:15: You can't. I was challenged by some people you probably know years ago on that point, and I challenged them right back, and then they admitted, well, you can't be a historic
01:51:29: Calvinist and be a dispensationalist. Okay, I'll grant you that most of the Calvinists were not dispensationalists, but as I just said, you might be surprised at the ones who were moving in that direction.
01:51:46: Well, thank you, Robert. We have an anonymous listener who says,
01:51:56: I am getting into more and more debates, not in a formal and public sense, but in private conversation with my close friends who are dispensationalists.
01:52:09: And I have heard that some of the earliest of the dispensationalists believed that the
01:52:19: Jewish people would never be accompanying the
01:52:24: Gentiles in eternity in heaven with Christ, but would merely inherit an earthly kingdom.
01:52:34: Is this true, that early dispensationalists believe that, and what is your opinion of that?
01:52:40: Well, no, I don't believe that. And as far as which specific people, which theologians believe that,
01:52:52: I can't answer that. Again, I would refer to Whitson's book, Dispensationalism Before Darby.
01:52:59: He could answer a lot of those things. Look, the thing about it is that in the present age, the church is made up of Jews and Gentiles, and Paul makes it clear in Galatians 3 .28,
01:53:11: there's no difference. We are on equal footing, Jew and Gentile alike under the age of grace, and we will together reign with Christ.
01:53:22: We are a royal priesthood, according to the New Testament, and that kind of distinction.
01:53:29: Now, it is true that there is a role for national Israel when they are restored to their position following the tribulation period.
01:53:40: They will be restored completely to their nation. All the Jews will be regathered, and they will have a place of primacy in the
01:53:51: Millennial Kingdom. But that's the Jews then. That's not the regenerate
01:53:58: Jews who are part of the body of Christ. But you have heard that that was a part of the thinking of some, at least, early dispensationalists?
01:54:09: Well, once again, I'm not an authority on all these theologians.
01:54:14: You have to check that. That's why I refer you back to Whitson's book, Dispensationalism Before God, because he goes through that stuff in excruciating detail, and you can just about find any theologian from the first century up until the 19th century that had anything to do with this.
01:54:35: He deals with lots of them and shows their convictions.
01:54:41: The best thing I can do is refer you to that book. Yes, and I heard it just a little differently, or maybe it's significantly different.
01:54:52: I heard that there were early dispensationalists that believed the old covenant believers would not inherit heaven but an earthly kingdom, not that Jewish believers in the new covenant who specifically embraced
01:55:09: Christ would not be in heaven. But that's just... I don't agree with that at all, but I believe that all believers will be in heaven.
01:55:20: Well, here again, you need to be very clear in the distinction between heaven and the earthly kingdom of Christ.
01:55:29: Don't confuse those. Yes, I'm talking about eternity. Yes, well...
01:55:36: And I know there will be a new heavens and a new earth, but I'm just saying there seems to be a segregation going on in the minds of some of the early dispensationalists between old covenant believers and new covenant believers.
01:55:48: Yes, and that's not biblical at all, I don't believe. We have another listener.
01:55:55: We have Christian in western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Christian says,
01:56:02: I have read in the tracts of some of the more extreme fundamentalist Baptists that during the tribulation, the gospel of Jesus Christ will not be active, and if anyone is going to enter into eternal life with Christ after death, it must be by works.
01:56:25: And in fact, in some cases I have heard these folks believe, according to their dispensational view, that you must be martyred during the great tribulation in order to inherit heaven.
01:56:38: Have you heard this and do you believe it? That's a whole bunch of error and has nothing to do with dispensationalism as such.
01:56:46: These people may claim to be dispensationalists, but those are totally wrong heretical views.
01:56:56: And I'd like you to now, for several minutes of uninterrupted time, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.
01:57:07: Well, I think the important thing to understand is that God has given us some significant revelation with regard to what he's doing in the world from the time of creation to the time of the end.
01:57:22: God has a plan. He has a program that he has undertaken. And he has done it over a period of all these years with certain ages, distinguished by certain responsibilities that he's given to man, certain failures that mankind has been guilty of, and judgments that in the end,
01:57:49: Christ is going to return. And he will reign on the earth. And God will be glorified.
01:57:58: And I think that's the important thing. God is going to be glorified.
01:58:04: That's the doxological purpose of human history. So, you know, don't get bogged down in a lot of these obscure kinds of things.
01:58:17: Scripture's pretty clear. Just read it. Israel means Israel. The church means the church.
01:58:24: And if you follow that pattern of interpretation, I don't think you'll be confused.
01:58:33: Well, I want to thank you so much for spending time with us today, Ron. And I hope that I have an opportunity to fellowship with you face to face sometime this side of heaven in the near future.
01:58:47: And I also want to remind our listeners that I am in the process right now of arranging an eschatology marathon that will likely take place in August where I'm going to have different representatives of the different major eschatological views, each having a day where they defend that view.
01:59:13: And Ron Glass is, God willing, going to be one of them, defending pre -tribulational, pre -millennial eschatology.
01:59:22: And so keep listening for updates on exactly when that marathon will occur. I want to thank everybody for listening today.
01:59:30: And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.