November 20, 2017 Show with David van Gend & Scott Clements on “Stealing From a Child: The Injustice of ‘Marriage Equality'”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation

To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

This is Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 20th day of November 2017 and I am very delighted to have not only a returning guest

But a first -time guest on together today both from the land down under Australia We have two guests from Australia Discussing a very important issue.

We have first of all for the very first time on iron sharpens iron radio

Dr. David van Gendt. He's an Australian family doctor a musician a father a

Combatant on matters of life and death family and freedom and the author of stealing from a child the

Injustice of marriage equality. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron for the very first time ever

Dr. David van Gendt It's great to have you here brother and we also have returning to the program

Scott Clements who is an Australian lay preacher and a church planter of the

Kuma Reformed Bible Church in Kuma South Wales, Australia And it's great to have you back on iron sharpens iron radio

Scott Clements And we'll let our listeners know how they can join us on the air with a question of your own

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHRI s a r n z e n at gmail .com

please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and Please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking and I could readily see a subject like this lending itself to people having

Personal and private matters that they want to talk about but Please other than the personal and private ones.

Give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence Well, first of all, dr.

David van Gendt before we even go into the subject at hand if you could give us a summary of how you were raised religiously and If any religion at all and how the

Lord in his providence guided you to himself and saved you The abbreviated version since the main topic at hand is your book stealing from a child

But if you could start with your own experience of coming to Christ I'm a fairly simple story having been

Raised in a family derived from a very old missionary family in Africa going right back to the

Scottish missionary David Livingston, in fact, you might have heard of oh, yeah generation

Zambia and you don't you don't get raised in that sort of pioneer missionary heritage without getting a fairly robust and Humble faith with your mother's milk.

So that's that's my situation nothing spectacular, but It's obviously been the foundation of my life throughout and what when in your life did you realize that you had a calling to be a medical physician my dad was and a number of my

Ancestors in Africa were of course medical missionary doctors. So it was something it always appealed.

I love the love the privilege of being part of the

Grief and joy of people's lives and the whole way that makes them keeps you forever reminded of your mortality and of The affliction that is part of our life.

And those are the big questions, of course that keep bringing you back to questions of meaning and What matters in our lives so for my sort of bent of mind

Which has always been preoccupied with the more serious question It was obviously a very very privileged profession to get into and I've loved being a family physician for the last

Or getting on 30 years with my own having written. I have raised my own three boys here with my wife

Jane in Australia and In a good life praise

God and Scott Clements you approached me with the theme of our our program today because there is some kind of Tragic landmark event legally that occurred there in Australia that kind of Echoes if you will something that occurred here in the

United States if you could tell us about that Okay. Well, we recently had a referendum on the subject of same -sex marriage

At least we had the privilege I guess of expressing our views But we had a referendum the referendum the basic numbers came back in we were they were published a few days ago now here in Australia it was 62 % in favor 38 % against roughly it will take a few points of one percentage

Which you know, I mean as a Christian in Australia, I guess I see some positives I I could have seen us losing much worse than that 38 % is a strong is a strong vote against it

Yeah, yeah, it's certainly an indicator It's certainly an indicator to our politicians that there are too many people who disagree with it to be bullied into total

Silence, though. I think some of them desperately want to try to do that. Well, that is encouraging that even though the those in favor of a biblical understanding of marriage, even if they're not themselves

Christian had such a a large turnout against same -sex marriage

Even though they lost the number that you just mentioned as I said is encouraging Well, dr.

Van Gendt When was it that you first began saying to yourself

I Need to write this book stealing from God the injustice of marriage equality

Recognizing that this could possibly result in you losing patience

Or perhaps I don't know what the legal climate is over there in Australia In this regard, but I'm assuming that if it doesn't happen now down the road you might even

Lose a medical license or be forbidden from practicing medicine as a result of taking this public stand but if you could tell us about this book when it when the seed first was planted in your mind and how it

Came to fruition and actually in ended up in the publishing of this book stealing from God stealing from a child

I'm sorry The president of the Australian marriage forum one of the main groups that's been carrying the debate against same -sex marriage and This really dates back to 2004 when we

Managed to achieve a clear amendments to our marriage act defining it as what it's always been but it can only be which is between a man and a woman in the federal parliament and In the last three years in particular

There's been immense pressure to overturn that in the federal parliament and we organized our group to be one of the main voices

Against this change and so having spent so much time so much Public debating so much research on this matter and perfecting the arguments if you like as you have to do

There was just an obvious desire and need to write if you like the campaign manifesto for our case in Australia and This is what

I wrote. It was a year ago It's become a bestseller for what it's worth and in Australia, which in Australia only means more than 10 ,000 copies

That's the equivalent of over a hundred thousand in America and it hit number one on Kindle Social science a month or two back here in Australia So the point of it is that it certainly has helped people clarify

As the opening line of the book says what happens if we enshrine a lie at the heart of our culture

That is what we have now voted to do in Australia and what your judges Imposed upon all of you back in the

Obergefell case of 2015 And so the book has become a real labor of love

It's painted of course on the fundamental injustice of same -sex marriage, which is that it's a structural

Structural deprivation of a child's fundamental right to either their mum or their dad Deliberately not not by tragic circumstance, but at by an act of power

But it then of course develops into the consequences of such a radical overturning of the foundation not only of society not only of nature, but of the very image of God in man the human trinity of Mother father and child which is the closest we get in a secular world to sacred ground and so the profundity of what will happen the

Undoing of our culture with this particular change is what I explore in the book and that goes everywhere from the consequences for our children's education with this radical gender theory and And the indecent material pushed on our kids in the

LGBT for those of you who just tuned us in our guests today are Both from Australia. Dr.

David van Gend who is an Australian family a doctor a musician a father a combatant on matters of life and death family and freedom an author of Stealing from a child the injustice of marriage equality.

We also have Scott Clements on The line from Australia an Australian lay preacher and a church planter of the

Kuma Reform Bible Church of Kuma New South Wales, Australia, if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and dr. Van Gend Are there?

many physicians out there or anyone in the medical field who have been courageous enough and bold enough and Filled with righteous indignation

Or enough righteous indignation to come forward in public With a bold stance against same -sex marriage and homosexuality as you have

It's been a little less direct than that. There's been a few good GP friends who have done their part

There's been only a few of us have had to front it publicly, but we have had a group of about 700 doctors including some very senior professors and former

Australian Medical Association Office bearers who joined a statement we made in defense of the science that shows that children

Of same -sex households do not fare as well as those raised by their, you know, biological parents that we defended the

Science of a child's well -being quite vigorously in the public square and it made quite a splash and that that was led by a few high -profile

Friends in the medical profession, but as far as the the general public debate

Yes, there were some other doctors But not not in an organized manner The main body carrying the debate has been the coalition for marriage and that was an overarching group

Which brought in lots of Christian groups and and other bodies principally the Australian Christian Lobby Led by my good friend

Lyle Shelton has carried the greatest burden here and It's been a

Hopeless task in a way the the culture here in Australia is is really terminally

Oprah -fied if I could refer to your great Oprah guest TV host we really are to the point of such

Degeneration and our attitudes to these great issues where everything's about feeling good everything's about No, everything must be about love and tolerance and acceptance and to hell with the needs of children the rights of kids to have a mom and a dad to hell with the consequences of Such a radical change for our basic liberties and for the education of our kids

So, although we argued the consequences very powerfully and dominated the last three months of this public debate

That it was all about the consequences for kids education and for liberties of speech and conscience and religion

Nevertheless that simple notion of equality and love is love and other empty phrases

Carries a day because that is where our culture has come to Yeah, and of course they even redefine what love means because obviously you are motivated by love you're motivated by not only the love of God and the love of his word, but you're motivated by the love of children and the compassion of children and The the desire to see them safe and raised in healthy environments both physically and mentally and spiritually

I mean, it's it's It's it's really absurd when You know liberalism used to be the idea that They wanted everyone to have an equal voice in the public square and so on now.

It's really leftist totalitarianism It's not really liberalism because they want our voices completely snuffed out they don't want

Christians to have freedoms and rights and so on and they don't want children really to have rights even though they they claim they want children to have rights, but they have a

Misguided and Satanic understanding of that when you have the the demand.

I don't know what it's what's going on in Australia in this regard, but you have leftists demanding that children should have the right to choose what gender they are and That kind of a thing.

So it's really a very sick and twisted version of children's rights But the part of the part that the children's rights that you are for is for are for their

Safety, which would involve their parents? Being able to protect them and guide them and so forth

That's right. And that'll be the battlefield in the next trench back that we fall back to and we defend that next trench back and that'll be about the

Primary right parents to determine the moral education of their children not the state and the primary fundamental liberties of speech and conscience to say what we hold to be true and good and not be silenced by the state and what we've understood through this debate

And what the thesis of my book really is is that same -sex marriage is not really about marriage

It's about power for the serious activist. They want the power the legal power that comes when you enshrine

Homosexual marriage in law the power to control the education of children and the power to silence enters

Those are the twin objectives of any revolution control kids education Silence dissent and you can proceed with your revolution

And so although there are some gentle people who just want the right to know to to marry and be approved by society

Have a pat on the back and feel feel accepted and you can sort of relate to that. That's like the pathetic need as a genuine one

But that is not where the serious players are. They despise marriage the gay activists have always treated it as a contemptible bourgeois patriarchal

Plainly religious institution and they despise that until they understood the legal power that could come

If you enshrine same -sex marriage in law and then we shall now watch

Chapters 4 to 11 of my book unfold as we see the consequences of that change play out in our culture

That's where the battle lines agree now Well, I'm sure that one of the primary reasons our listeners are eager to hear what you have to say because it is a very rare voice in the media to hear somebody from a medical practice or a medical background speak out against Homosexuality and about or against Same -sex marriage is they want to hear what particularly you as a physician see as the the negative outcome of these kinds of so -called marriages

Which we would we would obviously know or no marriages at all the way marriage is truly defined but What what do you document in your book you you brought it up Very briefly just a few moments ago.

But what are some of the the negative outcomes of children being raised? with two caregivers that are of the same gender

It's quite clear that one great truth Overarches this question and that great truth is established on 50 years of research that children on average do best when raised by their biological married mother and father and this is obvious because the

We're mammals because we are deeply bound into the one flesh

Connection the kinship bonds of our own our own flesh and blood our own mother and father and family

And when you take those bonds and break them you essentially injure children and it can be a

Breaking of those bonds through divorce or through death of a parent. It can be a Blending of new families.

It can be many many tragic events and many just you know life events that bring about a breaking of the bond, but The great harm of same -sex marriage is that it's a deliberate thing

It is a governing policy to break the bond between a child and his mum or dad

And so when you do that you disadvantage children on average across the board

And that might be emotional consequences for the child, you know educational disadvantage all these variables because of that violation of a child's kinship bonds now

If you look at some of the great studies by Sullins and Regners or Douglas Allen from America from Canada.

These are large peer -reviewed representative studies which find quite significant forms of disadvantage or even harm to children

Associated with being raised in same -sex homes the famous one by Douglas or by Paul Sullins in 2015 found a fourfold increase

In serious emotional harm to children raised in same -sex homes When you compare it to their married biological cohorts

And Douglas Allen found a very significant drop in high school graduation rates

Which is an important marker of children's well -being in same -sex parent at home Now of course this becomes forbidden research.

It becomes shattered down. It becomes Unthinkable that anyone should do such research or publish such research and the powerful apparatus of professional censorship kicks in and starts to exclude any such findings and once again the

Victims are those children who you know on current evidence will suffer detriment even harm through the social experiment but such as the degradation of our

Adult society that we prefer to let kids suffer the consequences as long as we can stand

We were going we were speaking about the statistical information about children being raised in homes that are

The heads of households are homosexuals there are two people of the same gender who knows probably possibly more than two people

And of course, this is very often in this day and age But I'm assuming it's still a minority under the guise of the couple being a married couple

Is that still a small minority of these same -sex? Households with children in them that the the couple are married.

Is that still a tiny minority? Okay And How long has it been legal in Australia for homosexual couples to adopt children

Which means each of the Six states has had its own laws on whether single people or same -sex couples can adopt or create a baby by surrogacy or use

IVF and Just a few years ago. It was illegal across the board and as the same -sex marriage that matter came increasingly to the fore the

Government's the labor government in the state has scurried to bring in laws

To allow same -sex couples to marry us. Sorry to adopt or to create child by surrogacy obviously, they knew that it was vital for them to Establish same -sex adoption and surrogacy to take away one of our key argument

About marriage, which is that it would then of course allow same -sex adoption as a matter of fact

So most states not all but most states now allow same -sex adoption surrogacy in Australia We've opposed that through different organizations for the last decade on exactly the same grounds as the core argument against same -sex marriage

Which is that it deliberately deprives children of their birthright of their

Relationship with their mother or father and that is an inherent injustice But the first same -sex adoption couple in Australia was an absolute signal failure

One of that pair is now in jail They actually attempted to option off that child a young boy at the age of three or four years old on the

Internet Wow, wow, that's pretty horrifying. Obviously more than pretty horrifying.

It's mind -boggling How horrifying it is, um well, the the thing that always amazes me is

How you have not only homosexual rights advocates advocates on the left

But you have many feminists on the left. I don't want to broad brush all feminists because not all feminists are

Homosexual rights activists, but the vast majority of them are or the vast majority of activists who are feminists are you do even have evangelical

Christian women who identify themselves with the feminist movement so that that would not necessarily include them, but The thing is that you would wonder at least privately

How many of these feminists really? react to When you have two men

Raising a child together as allegedly a married couple or just as a couple To think that it is really not all that important that a woman is

Absent from the raising of that child. You would think that there would be feminists in an uproar

Having women viewed that way. Obviously, it's not going to be that case when you have a lesbian couple raising children, but when two men or two or more men are raising a child or children you would think that Feminists would be more upset about that.

Have you heard anything? from feminists About this where their role as women is being

Diminished in its importance in the raising of children. That's a very complicated Question to enter into the mind of the radical feminists.

There are a couple of very amusing consequences for the feminist Cohort the most amusing of all is that with the the drifts to Transgender matters that has flown from the abolition of gender in marriage you then really

Abolish the biological distinction of male and female in the culture more widely and it's been the feminist certainly in Australia like Jermaine Greer and Some of the feminist groups who have been most outraged at the idea that a bloke should be able to Mutilate his body in some way and join the sisterhood.

This has finally Taught them that there's some difference between men and women and and all this idea of you know, neutering men feminizing men

Meaning men, which is which has been their tasks in so many decades Is coming back to bite them because now men are joining the sisterhood by their transgender

Certification and at that point the feminists get mugged by reality and Start objecting and saying you are abolishing the meaning of woman if you say that a bloke can sign a certificate and check a few hormones and say he is a female and So this is an example

Christopher the revolution devouring its own and it's a it's an absolute joy to behold Could you please provide some more of the statistical information that you provide in your book because I Want to make sure that as many things of importance that you uniquely as a physician

Have become aware of in regard to this whole subject is made Public during our program today since it's not often

I have someone in the medical field Taking a public stance in favor of a biblical understanding of this issue on the show

A popular misunderstanding There's a chapter I've got called

Bullying blackmail and born that way Bullying blackmail and born that way and it tries to correct both and very emotive claim that somehow

I'm six people or same -sex couples or children of same -sex households are subjected to a unique level of bullying and discrimination which requires us to change the meaning of marriage or requires us to bring in transgender bathroom doors or Requires us to do whatever the left wants us to do because otherwise they're going to be bullied and they'll suicide now

Again, it's very important to actually look at the fact look at the research and see from Invasive study including strong and he touches on it, but other studies that I quote that really there's no good evidence that Children of same -sex households, for example of stigmatized any more than other households and possibly it's less according to some that a large study from Britain in the position of society some years back finding that there was no evidence of increased bullying of Gay and lesbian people either at school and subsequently these are important things to get in perspective and likewise

So -called, you know sure the Remedy for this bullying by bringing in same -sex marriages is somehow going to fix the very grave problems of depression and suicidality in the

LGBT Cohort, but of course when you look at the evidence Look at places like Sweden or Holland, which have same -sex marriage.

You still find an extraordinarily high level of depression and even suicide even as one

Swedish study shows Among married same -sex male couples. There is a lot more going on in the dynamics of the homosexual subculture and the mind of people who are

Experiencing same -sex attraction. It is far more in my opinion the intrinsic dissonance of such a sexual orientation and the lifestyle that goes with it

Which is in my view as likely to be the source of the depression the anxiety and the suicidality

Compared to these alleged external stigma and external Homophobic pressures from society, which which we are told is the cause

So that creases an important chapter. I'm sorry. I can't just summarize it for you. But and the important thing about The born that way idea now for Christian people

That is powerful The idea that as one Anglican minister put it to me

God made them that way So how can we deny them their fulfillment as sexual beings?

now that Notion that gay people are born that way has not a shrink of scientific basis whether you look at twins studies, whether you look at The large studies which find about two -thirds

Two -thirds of young people who think they're gay will no longer think they're gay in a matter of months or a year

This is hard evidence which shows that the majority of say teenagers who

Identify as same -sex attracted simply will not identify as gay a few years later

Well, if they don't say that way that certain words form that way were they? And we've got to try and get away from this, you know

Powerful Logonistic stuff and get down to the truth of the matter which is that We have no scientific evidence

Even your American Psychological Association Chris, which is an artist pro -gay organization admits that we have no

Replicatable scientific evidence of any clear cause for same -sex attraction. We just don't have it

So the claim that you're born that way is is bogus Pure propaganda and Might be interested to see how that is laid out

Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting a copy of the book myself We do have a listener in Slovenia Joe in Slovenia who says dear brother

Chris I thank God for your global ministry in a time in which the church worldwide is a need is

In great need of recovering and reclaiming the Reformation recently on your show pastor

Tim Bailey Traced the current homosexual agenda eroding u .s.

Society as having resulted from the travesty of ramped heterosexual fornication adultery and divorce in the

Evangelical churches that was not checked by church leadership in the 50s 60s and 70s

His point was that we have no moral or biblical integrity or clout to address homosexuality

Scripturally in society now because we did not discipline our own then please ask brother

David If the situation is in Australia is similar if so, how if not, why not?

Thank you so much for being willing to For being willing to honestly hold the mirror of God's Word up to the church and Help her take the look she needs to see the corrections that are necessary And so basically our listener in Slovenia is saying that the church was letting

By and large, of course, this is not true everywhere not in every denomination or every congregation but because of the fact that there was a very large segment of professing

Christianity that was allowing heterosexuals to get away with their own sin unchecked and undisciplined by elders in local congregations and denominations that the heterosexual

Element of the church had no right to point fingers if it were as it were

To those involved with homosexuality. So and he was wondering if you have the same

Situation in your opinion in Australia that resulted in the the large number of Homosexuals making decisions in your in your country or at least homosexual advocates

Absolutely, right. Your listener has Diagnosed it correctly. The trashing of marriage has been a heterosexual project

And we are reaping the Harvest of our own

Decadence over many decades and yet that has involved the churches to various extents.

We have our liberal Denominations here like you do we have a conservative faithful denominations like you do and within each of those denominations

You've got your your sort of more decadent way You can walk in the more faithfully that is how it's always been it's been like that since the

New Testament And Paul spent half of his epistles dealing with Troublesome parishioners who were unfaithful to the to the gospel and that it has always been but even more vividly that it has always been in the history of Israel and One of the most useful books

I Referred to in my own book was by Jeffrey Satanova your psychiatrist over there who wrote

Homosexuality in the politics of truth remarkable book and in that I learned a lot about the parallels between the history of ancient

Israel and its struggle to maintain a covenant view of man -woman marriage in the context of the hideously decadent open culture around it where all forms of sexuality were

Encouraged and ritualized in prostitution and idolatry and that was the effort of the

Judeo and subsequently the Christian revolts against the surrounding cultures was to maintain faithful covenant marriage so what your listener has pointed out is that when

Israel became unfaithful to Covenant marriage and when we have become unfaithful to man -woman covenant marriage

What happens is that? We get sent to Babylon Israel Kept on being disciplined by the powers around us and eventually into the captivity as a necessary Consequence of its own faithlessness its own decadence and Although Israel did not want to go to Babylon and thought it was the end of the world we can see that it was not only necessary But it was for the best

It purified and humbled the Judaic culture to the point where ultimately it was good enough in parts for Christ to be incarnate within that culture

So we too, I think Are being shipped off to Babylon. We as one of your

American friends said after the Obergefell decision in 2015 You guys were feeling like aliens in your own culture

Aliens in your own land And I'm afraid that this monumental

Undoing of marriage as an institution the foundation of our culture foundation of a

Judaic Christian culture Is so huge, so good It will in fact leave us as aliens in our own land

To an extent. We only hope that it's necessary and we only hope that it's for the good

Yes, just a comment from scripture with regard to Joachim Slovenia's question Psalm 38 verse 14 is one of David's penitential psalms

Where he speaks about the burden of sin and how the burden of sin was weighing him down In verse 14 in the

ESV the translation reads I have become like a man who does not hear and in whose mouth are no rebukes

If you look up that word that's translated rebukes It's referring directly to the idea of judgment or correction in my mouth and no judgments or correction

There you've got the king of the land who because of the burden of his sin and the guilt that he was under Could not speak corrective words to the people under his care

Because his own sin I think hollowed him out and made him feel Despondent So I believe that strongly supports the idea that a that a church which has given itself over to sin really has nothing to say

To the to the society around it. One thing is for certain and of course the leftists don't want to admit this but This could be categorized as nothing less

Than an experiment with children as the guinea pigs when you are taking children and placing them in what even possibly may be a dangerous situation you are quite blatantly just experimenting with the lives of these children because the feelings of those involved with homosexual activity are more important than the minds and the physical lives and the souls of children in the minds of these leftists whether they are homosexuals themselves or whether they are heterosexual advocates of homosexuality this is all just a

Test an experiment, isn't it? And this is the abuse of adult power that is inherent in the institution of genderless marriage and genderless parenting.

These children cannot give their consent to being deprived of their fundamental relationship with their mum or dad.

They cannot give their consent to being raised in a Situation where their nearest and dearest, their role models in life are involved in a

Irregular form of relationship, a homosexual relationship And this is a big, big experiment as you say and one of the chapters in my book called children of homosexual homes speak out as a very moving testament of these adults who were children in same -sex homes who actually, you know, speak wonderfully warmly of their lesbian parents but grieve deeply for the loss of their father in their life and in some cases there's one

Jewish woman BN Klein who gave testimony to one of your courts in America and it's a powerful testimony.

She's quite bitter about the very strange and to her quite disturbing subculture that she was raised in in the

LGBT world of New York and And She even talks about elements of abuse and of Hypersexualization of children in that culture which she considers to be very grievous, but of course no one would ever listen to a child who

Complained from within such a culture because that's not politically correct. Well, those are her insights

They are very powerful and they Didn't frighten me that if it is the case that the homosexual subculture really does have a more intensely hypersexualized preoccupation

Then it's really not the sort of environment you want kids to to Be growing up in.

No, you can't generalize. They'll be very modest and quiet and same -sex couples and households

But I don't think it's a I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the LGBT subculture does pride itself on on exuberant and to my mind slightly obsessive sexual preoccupation and That according to some of these young people who have grown up through it

It's very disturbing, but of course, you know again, we're just abandoning we're never going to have research looking into this we're never going to have major newspapers, you know doing exposés on on the subculture nothing like that.

It's all untouchable and so as you said whether there is harm or there isn't we'll never really know

Chris because it's an experiment that No one has any any hands on the on the on the leavers, it's just a happening

Anecdotally, I only know one person who was raised in a same -sex family to lesbians right this girl and And this is

Scott right now, right? Is this Scott right now? Yeah, okay. That's correct,

Chris And she's invited me Incited in me and I'm being very general She was most uncomfortable going through her teenage years as the more let's just say aggressive lesbian in that couple who raised her was

Actively encouraging her to bring her girlfriends home from school and it was It appeared to her even at a very young age to be a very mature interest

I realize this is a terrible thing to say, but That and it's anecdotal but this person is the only person

I know who was raised by same -sex parents and anecdotally For her it was a nightmare sexually.

She's still as an adult Uncomfortable with any expression of sexuality because of what she was exposed to as a child just the one final thing

I touch on in the book relevant to what Scott just said and it is the findings in the main research whether by Reitner's or by Of very troubling initial findings of increased reporting of forms of sexual abuse by children in same -sex households now,

I emphasize it's only preliminary because the Numbers in these studies, although they're the biggest we've got

I still don't think they're big enough to be sure of the findings and the nature of scientific research is if you find a suggestive line of evidence which is of great importance you must proceed to larger studies to try to validate it and both

Reitner's and Sullivan's found quite significant quite dramatic increases in the reporting of Sexual premature sexual involvement or sexual

Abuse of various levels in the children of same -sex Yeah, now look gee you've got to be careful because it's not fair to me or all same -sex couples based on Preliminary research and so we must be clear on that But on the other hand, it is gravely negligent

You face with these preliminary findings and then just say well, we don't care We're not even going to look into it

We don't care if it's actually pointing to something real and true and kids really are in some jeopardy there

We're just going to ignore it because politically incorrect to pursue This is the problem we face and I think our priority should always be

Give children the benefit of the doubt in our research and proceed until we can rule this

This like concern out. Yeah, what I was about to say is that it's very interesting that you are already in history

Having these kinds of very negative and frightening statistical

Documentation arising as a result of children being home raised in homes where there is same -sex parenting and This is still relatively new

Can you imagine if this is already occurring? What the statistics will be in a decade or two decades or three decades?

I Know that That you dr.

Van Gendt have only enough time to be on with us for the first hour So I'd like you right now to have at least three minutes of uninterrupted time

To summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to Stealing from a child the injustice of marriage equality

Here and you've lost the court decision of America I Didn't think that the battle goes on because It is a package to you or it's not just about marriage the purpose of same -sex marriage is as I mentioned to obtain the legal power to then control the moral education of our children and to violence the centers particularly in the churches those are battles that we cannot walk away from and so if if there's any help to be found in my book and Possibly there is because it's it's drawn on all the international evidence the international experience

Then people can get it. I think most conveniently from Amazon on Kindle The beauty of getting it on Kindle or an iBook is that you can hyperlink to any of the 450

References directly you can go straight to the research article you can go straight to the video of this or that In person, so I would recommend if you want to none of the money goes to me by the way

I've never got a dollar out of this book. It all goes straight back into the marriage campaign But you can get it on Kindle for $10 or even less

American, and I'd love you to go and look at that because it shows the

Package that comes with genderless marriage And if we deny the objective truth man and woman in marriage

We are denying The primal truth of mother and father in family and ultimately, we are denying the biological distinction of male and female so you end up with the transgender map that is upon us and very much upon you in America and you can go and understand the nature of Transgenderism and intersex and other matters in my chapter the abolition of male and female for example

And you can look to the consequences for the church in my chapter the silence of the shepherds

I do know that it's given great help and insight to our friends in Australia And it may still be of relevance to your listeners dealing with these great battles and so I would just say

We are sending something very close to sacred ground when we defend that That human trinity of mother father and child that is what has always motivated me the love between a mother and baby that has been violated

The love between father and child that has been violated by this idea of genderless marriage that that means the great motivation for all the little

I've done but there's also the fear of What will come and what is coming and what

I've experienced in a number of ways already Through the imposition of state power onto the liberties of us the citizens

Freedom of conscience our freedom of speech Arguably considered to be true and good.

This is what is at stake Although we have both now lost our marriage

Status and law both in America and Australia There are battles still to be had and innocent children and and Aspects of truth and goodness that are still to be defended so Thanks for having me on Chris.

Thanks for letting me mention this book stealing from a child It's very kindle it's very difficult.

It's available in hardcopy from from Amazon and I hope it can give some interest to your friends and to your listener from Slovenia all power

I say to the East European former communist countries because they seem to be the hope of the world in terms of Holding fast to the deep saying things of human life like marriage and natural family

So I'm glad you have a reach right out there as well By the way before you go Dr.

Vengan, I wanted you to just answer one question before you left Have you experienced any backlash from?

Citizens private citizens who are involved in either Homosexuality themselves or their advocates of that behavior who have had any kind of a negative

Impact upon you such as threats of violence vandalism anything of that nature

Oh, yes, no problem at all. We've had death threats. We've had nice emails threatening to punch me in the face

We've had vandalism of my medical center with van games bigots written in big red pipes.

We've had Vexatious Legal moves to take me to the you know, the human rights for police

We've got people trying to get me to register. I mean, this is all part of the course I treat it all with the contempt that it deserves

The printer or this book actually refused to print my book

This is a major second biggest printer in the country. He published many many books books

I printed many books for our publisher But my little book was refused on the grounds quotes of subjects matter and content in quotes now

It's a beautifully gentle book Anyone has been able to lay a finger on it has been unfair and reasonable even unkind

I the former gay guy who refused it and said it was profoundly respectful of all concerned.

So I think Unfortunately, they really can't lay a glove on it That would be

Connor court you mean Right, right, okay

Sydney refused That's all minor We just expect that We counted as all all over and we counted as all joy under Matthew 511

Even though you know, it's pretty minor in the scheme of things But it's been an absolute joy to cut that sort of abuse or something that you love

Something that matters pretty much more than anything else in that society and that is defending a triple bond of mother father and child that pretty close to the sacred image of the human

Trinity that defecated before I Well, I want to let our listeners know that your blog can be found at David van gend calm.

That's david Van g end calm and if you want to explore

Connor court publishing Their website is Connor court publishing calm and Connor is spelt c o n n o r court co u r t publishing calm and that's especially for those of our listeners in Australia because we do have a number of them and Of course as our guest has stated already you can for those of you in America and and other places outside of Australia You can order the book

From Amazon either in hardcopy or on Kindle and I hope to have you back on the program very soon.

Dr. Van Gend Thank you very much for being on the program today And we are going to a break right now if anybody would like to join us with a question for Scott Clements Who is remaining on the air with us for the for the final hour?

Scott Clements who is an Australian lay preacher and a church planter of Kuma reformed

Bible Church in Kuma, New South Wales Australia our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Ch or is a RN z en a gmail .com

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA Don't go away.

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I should give honor to in some shape or form but we are back now from our station break and before we return to our

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Well now we are finally back to our guest Scott Clements and Scott Clements is an

Australian lay preacher and a church planter at Kuma Reform Bible Church in New South Wales Australia we are continuing the theme of Stealing from a child the injustice of marriage equality and this is particularly involving the the issue of homosexuality in Australia since that's where my guest is from and Scott it's great to have you back and you are our sole guest for the final hour

Can you let our listeners know something about Kuma Reform Bible Church of New South Wales, Australia?

Sure We're a small congregation church plant that began almost exactly three years ago now

And we are a confessional Baptist Church. We subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession You can find our sermons on sermon audio .com

and that's also the best place to find us on the internet We've also got a Facebook presence. We don't actually have a

Designated website for our church at this time Great Well as a minister, we had our first guest your friend.

Dr David van Gendt speaking as a family doctor and physician about the issue of homosexuality and about the severe damage it does to the family structure to children specifically and to society at large as a pastor

Tell us something about the challenges you see speaking publicly

With an unwavering commitment to the scriptures in regard to the sin known as homosexuality.

Do you see yourself? Facing in the near future perhaps this becoming illegal in Australia to even speak against this in a church or what are your what are your experiences in regard to this subject well

No profit. So obviously I don't see into the future What what do

I think is going to happen? I think the first attempt at legislating this as a result of the referendum we held

Will attempt to in some way preserve some rights for churches and some freedom of speech or ministers

But we have in Australia as you do in America leftist politics, you know the the hard left and in Australia that the coalition between the

Australian Labour Party and the Greens and sooner or later, they will win power again, you know in our national legit legislature and They I am certain will try to Severely curtail the freedom of expression that pastors currently enjoy

You know, they've made no secret of the fact that they hold us in in content They've made no secret of the fact that as far as they're concerned

We have the right to be silent and if we want to give our opinion We must first wait until they have given us what our opinion should be before we express their opinion on their behalf

That's pretty disturbing Do you have anything further to add to what dr.

Van Gendt said about the threats of violence or the vandalism or anything that that the homosexual activist community

Is doing and of course, I hate to use that term community and attachment to that But the homosexual activists whether they be themselves involved in that behavior, or they are merely

Celebrating that immoral and satanic and unnatural lifestyle or death style

Has there been any significant Repercussions as Dr.

Van Gendt has experienced with death threats and vandalism as this happened with churches in any large measure

Look, it has certainly happened to churches One church in particular a

Baptist Church in Victoria was defaced quite heavily with graffiti Which even went so far as to suggest that Christians ought to be crucified and The other part of the graffiti had a

Had set up as though it were an equation cross equals swastika So you had the outline of a cross the equal sign and then the

Nazi symbol I'm sure there have been others. That's the only one that managed to get a report into the national news

I'm sure there have been others that haven't been spoken of now Going back to even the reports that that dr.

Van Gendt Mentioned about his own practice being vandalized and death threats. Did any of that make mainstream media in Australia?

Not mainstream media. No, not at all It was as far as I can see it was reported in his he's in Queensland And I won't

I won't go any more specific than that Practices and resides in the state of Queensland and it certainly made his local newspapers where in a in a rural major center

He's a man of some profile a doctor in a doctor in a country town in Australia Even a large country town as I'm sure in America is a man with some local profile and it certainly got coverage in his local

Local papers, but no, it didn't get national exposure at all or at least I'm not aware of it.

Well, I'm glad at least the local Community local paper I should say did report on it

I don't know if you're familiar with a book that became very well known here in the

United States in the 1980s At least it's became very well known amongst reformed Christians perhaps not

Not so well known outside of that sphere, but when the wicked sees the city or when the

When the wicked sees a city But I haven't read it Yeah, Chuck McElhaney Who was the pastor of the first?

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco, California Actually, believe it or not

My current landlord was a predecessor in the ministry at that very same congregation he was the pastor there before Chuck McElhaney, but Chuck McElhaney and the elders of that church had to Put under discipline the church organist who they they found out was a practicing homosexual unrepentant

Homosexual and when he refused to repent they had to not only Terminate him from his position, but excommunicate him as well and the homosexual activists in the community unleashed their fury on That church and Actually set the parsonage on fire while pastor

McElhaney and his wife and children were asleep in their beds So this was actually a an attempt of murder in addition to arson and vandalism

And the local papers or local TV or radio stations

Said nothing about this. So in in one sense you have Dr.

Van Gend having a Superior response from at least the local newspaper there where he lives

We're gonna be going to a very brief and final station break but when we return I really want you as a

Christian as a believer in biblical inerrancy as a person who has compassion for the souls of the lost including those who are involved in Homosexual activity.

I want you to Give some biblical words of warning, but also biblical words of hope for those who repent and flee to Christ So if you could be prepared to do that when we come back from our final station break, we would love to have

That word from you Scott And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own before we run out of time our email

Address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arn is e n at gmail .com

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Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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We are now back for our final 24 minutes or so with my guest today

Scott Clements and Scott Clements As many of you already know from listening to today's program

Is a an Australian lay preacher and a church planter of the

Kuma Reform Bible Church in New South Wales Australia we are continuing the topic that we began in our first hour stealing from a child the injustice of marriage equality and Before we have you go through some biblical warnings and also some biblical words of hope for those involved in that Wicked activity known as homosexuality

Unnatural activity We do have a listener in White Plains, New York RJ who says

Since you are involved and some of the preaching if not all of it at the

Kuma Reform Bible Church How do you handle the situation or the subject of homosexuality in?

regard to preaching from the pulpit against this behavior Knowing that you have children in your audience question well

Whenever it comes up in the scripture, I address the issue as I hope by the grace of God scripturally

You can certainly talk about these things without needing to go into lurid detail

I would invite RJ if you look up our sermons on sermon audio

You would see that our number one downloaded sermon is called the marriage debate Which is a sermon that addresses this issue particularly

It came from a series from the Gospel of Mark a few years back and I think it was in Mark chapter 10 where Jesus was asked the question concerning divorce and spoke of the fact that marriage was from the beginning between a man and a woman and And so as I applied in that sermon as I applied the passage

I applied it to current issues and obviously the question of same -sex marriage was a very current issue

So you could certainly download that sermon and have a listen to it and I feel free to download any of them that you like from our site.

That's for sure and any that come from sermon audio at all Well, you don't have to go into graphic and lurid details, but you do have to speak the truth and I honestly believe that look

You don't want to You don't want to shock people You don't want to speak just for the purpose of being shocking, but you have to speak the truth

I mean scripture is very clear and very particular about this scene as it is about many other scenes

You know the phrase in the war if a man lies with a man as with a woman Makes it pretty clear exactly what's going on and that's that says enough doesn't it?

Yes, it does And we have one more that'll go to right now before I let you open up the

Word of God with specific Biblical warnings and and messages of hope we have

Let's see here we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Who says

I have heard it often repeated even by the most conservative? Christian opponents of homosexuality

That you can bet there is someone in your congregation who has same -sex attraction

Difficulties. My question is in regard to this. Do you really believe that it is that widespread and Are we not just giving in to the statistics given by the left who want to?

Convey the notion that there are a lot more people involved in homosexuality Than we would care to believe and Therefore we are perpetuating a lie that they want to perpetuate

Yeah, I understand. I understand what he's saying because I've heard that from Guests that I've had on this program from people that I respect and then they are not saying these things in any way to advocate advocate

Homosexuality or promote it or Tolerate it or anything like that. They're just saying That we should be aware that the likelihood is that there are people who struggle with that Sin in our midst wherever we may be, but is it really really that common in your opinion anyway?

In my opinion, I don't trust any of the statistics I have long been aware that these supposedly independent surveys come up with whatever result the person who's paying for the survey or Organization that is paying for the survey desire if you want a survey that proves that same -sex attraction is you know in more than 10 %

Has a prevalency of more than 10 % of the general population They'll design the survey to get the answers you want and they will balance out the statistics to make sure that the numbers they show

You support what you desire to get. I have absolutely no trust in any of these things

Whatsoever. With regards to whether or not there are people in let's say every conservative

Congregation struggling with issues of same -sex attraction I would say there are certainly people in every congregation struggling with issues of sexual lust full stop

You know We're tempted to isolate it off as though it's a problem up on its own.

What about the husband who's watching porn? What about the wife who's attracted to a different man?

What about the teenager who's filling his head or her head with evil nonsense that they're downloading from the

Internet? It's a it's a this whole issue of unbridled sexuality is actually a problem throughout our society and unfortunately because we live in the church and because in so many instances today the church is

Afraid to draw a hard line in the sand Concerning this issue. We've been frightened by the so -called

Psychology of this, you know the idea that it's good for a person to freely express their sexuality

The church doesn't take the stand that it ought to take and so I would not be surprised if there are people struggling with that lust and That particular form of lust but honestly as a pastor

Ministering unless you're in a passage that really points towards this particular issue

I think you've just got to assume that within in front of you in your congregation will be any number of people struggling with the issue of unclean sexual desires whether they be heterosexual homosexual whatever

Okay, and just to add something to that we've Brought this up or I've brought it up almost every occasion that we talk about This particular sin

I just want to make sure that no one has a An incorrect assumption by something that you just said there is something unique about homosexuality there are a lot of professing

Christians and a lot of people who truly are Christians and even conservative evangelical who will say that Basically, you know

We we shouldn't be looking down on those Involved in homosexual activity as if they are inferior to Heterosexuals because heterosexual sin outside of marriage heterosexual active activity

Outside of marriage is damning as well And therefore we shouldn't be on a high horse

Just because we are involved in a sin involving heterosexuality Rather than homosexuality now that that is true to an extent but but isn't there something unique about this sin?

That is unnatural. I mean, it's called an abomination It is not it is not on the equal playing field if you will as Heterosexuality which is actually a gift of God when used in the confines of marriage, right?

Oh Look, I agree I mean what is the nature of it and why is it such a Destructive sin and the answer is you go back to creation and there you see that male and female

God made them You look throughout all the kingdom of night of all of nature and you see that male and female

God made them My wife and I you know, there's a particular road We drive along here near home and there's a particular type of Australian bird

Nest in the trees that are hanging over that road and every time we say T bird see two birds in that nest

I always say to my wife or she will say to me. I'll bet you that's a male and a female I'll say yeah, it surely is, you know, two males don't make a nest and two females don't make a nest

It's a male and a female. So God built into his creation order maleness and femininity a male and a female and that is part of his whole structure of society and the actual

Physiological design of humanity points out and makes it perfectly obvious that a man is suited to a woman

You know, you don't have to be any kind of genius You don't have to have done five years of medical school to understand that a man and a woman fit together

You know, the marriage is not just a spiritual marriage. It's not just an emotional marriage.

It's a physical marriage We're made for each other. And so Obviously the thing of homosexuality is an utter rebellion against everything in God's created order

It's it's a complete rejection of God's authority over humanity and I understand that and I wasn't trying to downplay it, but I'm just afraid of Preaching a sermon, you know being being a one -trick pony in a way

I'm afraid of singling out one person in a in a in a or one type of sin

Is this to say this is the thing that will take you to hell all things will take you to hell Homosexuality homosexuality will take you to hell lying will take you to hell stealing will take you to hell adultery will take you to hell

You know the whole everything that God says is a thing. It's really simple the wages of sin of death

Everything that God says is a thing is worthy of the death penalty are some things more destructive

Yes, are they more destructive to the individuals that commit them? Yes, certainly

And homosexuality shows all the evidence of being that type of thing Are they more destructive to the people immediately around those who commit those things?

Yes Certainly and once again homosexuality is certainly that type of sin Destructive to all who look upon it and approve of it.

Not only those who participate Scripture calls it an abomination and I would not back away from what scripture says not even one millimeter right, because unfortunately you have in the church even in many evangelical churches this idea that well if a man or a woman are

Heterosexuals and they are not married. They are forced to remain chaste

Inactive sexually both in thought and physical behavior and Therefore somebody who is

Has a proclivity towards same -sex attraction should be identified

As a person who is gay quote -quote but chaste if they are a part of the church if they are

Not married to somebody of the opposite sex they too are just Members of the church that are to be chaste but but are not to be

Warned that even their proclivity that their proclivity is Unnatural and wicked that is not true.

I mean heterosexual. It is a different situation when you have chaste heterosexual struggling with that sin

Of desire and lust than somebody who has an unnatural desire. They are two different things, aren't they?

Um, well, yeah, they are two different things I would agree with that but you know what we a

Sad part of what's happening is so many in the church are denying the power of the gospel to actually change a person's nature

To truly change a person's desire. I'm thinking of but I'm thinking of first Corinthians Chapter 6 and verse 11 where Paul says and such were

Some of you amen such were some of you but you were washed you were sanctified

You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God in that list of the ones who?

Were there? Do not what does he say? Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be deceived neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who practice homosexuality

Nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God and such

Were some of you were all the same something has happened to those people

He's saying you have examples of people in that congregation who were Once upon a time this particular thing you were once upon a time that thing

But you are now not that thing what's made the change and the changes you were justified in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ And by the Spirit of our God you were washed you were Sanctified you were set apart you were made different We must encourage people to pursue true and deep

Sanctification it's no good saying look you've got the thing you've got the thing just deal with it.

Yeah, I understand I've spent my whole Christian life struggling and battling against my own flesh against my own sin

But I can also honestly and truly say in the Lord Jesus Christ that I am

NOT the man I used to be that God has given me victory. My failings are my own fault

But God has given me victory. He has changed my nature I hate the things that used to dominate my life and they no longer rule over me

Amen, and and once again, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying

That there aren't genuinely born -again people who have a same -sex attraction problem

But what I am saying is that I am very opposed to this idea That these individuals are to wave the white flag as if they are confined forever to this

Mindset in this proclivity and that they are just to focus on remaining chaste, but not thinking at all about being transformed and being rescued out of even that proclivity

I Agree completely as I said, my Christian life is a battle

The truth is the things that were my strongest temptation before I was born again In my moments of weakness, they are still my strongest temptation, but those things do not rule me

I have been given new desires by the Lord Jesus Christ by the power of his

Holy Spirit Praise God for that and sure a person who has been converted from a background of homosexuality that the strongest

Temptation that they will fight with for the rest of their Christian life will be the temptation that's born in their own memory banks in other words, we remember the sins we once committed and Our opponent the devil the evil one is very good at Stirring up those memories in the end

What what we're talking about is a fight for your own mind a fight for the control of your own desires

What has happened is that freedom has been defined as freedom to sin But you don't really have freedom to sin when when you're sinning you're being ruled by your desires

You know people say I identify as gay Oh that that is just the saddest thing you will ever hear what they're telling me

My desires give me my identity my desires make me who I am No, my friend in Christ.

You are a creation in the image of God Your desires should be equal to the desires of God God the

Creator who created male and female Yes, you're going to have to fight with sin.

Yes as Christians We're going to fall to our knees gab our knees and we're going to have to repent of many things

Sometimes many times over I have fought some personal battles that took me years to get what

I would claim to be a total victory or Totally the wrong word a decisive victory over that sin, but the victories there

It is promised if Christ has come into your life And he has changed your desire by the power of his spirit

You can fight for freedom from that slavery to sin Amen.

Well, I want you to have about three minutes or so of uninterrupted time just to unburden your heart

Or in regard to this subject and leave our audience with you what you most want etched in their hearts and minds on this matter

Okay, I would I would simply want to sum up many of the things I've already said Male and female

God created them God created us with a purpose and he put one man and one woman in the garden

This is still the ideal for human relationships. The ideal for human relationship is not a

Form of relationship that denies the created order and structure that God has built into Humanity, it's you know, it's amazing thing the law the ten commandments

For example, you shall not commit adultery Which we can easily Understand extends out and covers all forms of sexual thing

That law is in perfect agreement with the nature of creation

God created them male and female Don't be ruled by your sins.

Don't be ruled by your desires Your identity is not what you want your identity is who you are and though you be a sinner and Though you be lost in your sins and though you may well indeed be in a very dark and hideous place at this moment in your

Life you were created in the image of God to reflect and give glory to God you were created for a purpose with a with a reason in mind and Should you repent and put your faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ? He will give you the power to overcome your sin Repent turn to Christ Speak forgiveness be honest about this and to any

Christian who is struggling with the issue of sin I would say this I've seen so many

Christians who in their prayer life and in their struggles with sin Do not actually come to the

God and get particular about what the problem is General a general repentance is good.

Oh Lord, forgive me my sins But my friends I advise you come into the very presence of God and get very particular about it

Lord Forgive me the sin of you fill in the blank and get very particular about it

When you bring that thing into God and get very particular about the things that you are guilty of You will be along on the way to gaining a victory over that sin my friends

God does not hate The sinner he sent the Lord Jesus Christ into the world to save sinners

If you're hearing this message and if it means something To you if it's calling to it if you're hearing a calling to something deeper to something that is actually not

What you've known in your previous life or in your life until this point my friends repent

There is power there for all who would put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will not cast any away not ever amen, and one last thing about the comments that were made earlier by Dr.

Van Gendt, he is a medical doctor knows that there is zero evidence that a person can be born a homosexual

But having said that even if somebody is convinced of that mentally that they were born that way because they have no memory

Going back to their earliest days of childhood that did not include some kind of homosexual desire

So they are convinced. They were born that way even if one were to somehow prove that that is true that still doesn't give a person a license to be involved in that behavior because According to all of us who are theologically reformed

We are all born totally depraved and and that does not give us a license to To act upon all of our evil proclivities and thoughts and desires just because we were born in sin.

Am I right? Absolutely, right I I mean,

I I don't have a good enough memory or my memory doesn't go back far enough to remember the first time I lied, but I'm certain that no one gave me lessons in it

From my mouth it came from my mouth very easily. So can I say therefore, you know what?

I was a liar from birth and therefore It's okay that I remain a liar all my life or do I face up to the fact that the law says you shall not bear

False witness against your neighbor do I face up to the fact that we are told in Scripture to speak the truth?

Do I face up to the fact that I'm guilty before God because I've been a liar and speak his forgiveness

Of course, I seek his forgiveness Just because you're born with a proclivity to a certain scene

Doesn't mean that that scene is your identity and that it can never be changed and that you can never be anything else

Other than the sinner that you were born to be Amen, and we are out of time brother and I want our listeners to be reminded that they can go to sermon audio comm and type in the search engine

C o o m a kuma and you will come up with kuma Reform Bible Church And also there is a website that you wanted our listeners to be aware of Oz reform

Baptists, that's OZ reform Baptist org. Thank you so much brother And we look forward to your return to iron sharpens iron radio

Thank you, Chris I want everybody to always remember for the rest of their lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater