July 23, 2020 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “The False God & the False Christ of the Jehovah’s Witnesses”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth,

who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

23rd day of July 2020.

And I'm always thrilled to have back on the program a dear friend of mine who has become a favorite

guest on this program and also has become a favorite speaker

at conferences and speaking engagements that I personally arrange, in addition to debates

alongside of his colleague and friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

Just to give you an idea of the caliber of man Dr. Tony Costa is, if you know anything about James

White and know how high a caliber of an apologist he

is, he has had Dr. Costa on standby to fill in for him when he was

fearing he would be too ill to participate in a debate.

So that gives you an idea of the type of person and the training

and wisdom and knowledge and abilities that our guest Tony Costa has.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to discuss with you,

for the first time, the false God and the false Christ of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Welcome back, Dr. Tony Costa.

Thank you, Chris.

It's always, always a pleasure to be with you.

And folks, if you know Jehovah's Witnesses, I know that they are typically forbidden

to listen to Christian radio and watch Christian television and read Christian books.

But you never know when someone might be curious enough to hear what an opponent of their false

religion has to say.

So if you know any Jehovah's Witnesses, have them tune in.

At ironsharpensironradio .com and that is where they can hear it live streamed anywhere in

the world.

Before we go into the theme, the false God and the false Christ of the Jehovah's Witnesses,.

Dr. Tony Costa is Professor of Apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Why don't you give a brief word about this wonderful seminary?

Sure.

Toronto Baptist Seminary was founded in the 1930s by the late Dr. T .T.

He trained

both men and women.

In

trained

and

they've

moved on

a very proud

in the world and

trained scholars.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more about this wonderful seminary, go to

tbs .edu.

That's easy enough.

Toronto Baptist Seminary, obviously, is what that acronym stands

for, tbs .edu.

Well, Dr. Costa, the Jehovah's Witnesses, at least in the Northeast United

States, but it is having, sadly, and has had, sadly, an impact

globally.

But the Jehovah's Witnesses are a fairly well -known cult.

As I said, probably especially in the Northeast.

I know that they used to be headquartered in Brooklyn.

I believe that their headquarters may have, for the first time, changed, if I'm not mistaken, or at least this

exact address in Brooklyn has changed.

But if you could tell us something of the history of this cult.

Yes, the

Watchtower

Bible

and

Tract

began

from them

that he

was

not

truly from them, the rejection of the

mission of

them, a small group in

any seminary,

or they

chose a man

to predict at

the time by the name of

Nelson Barber,

about

that

later in

the

Armageddon,

19

for

Franklin

Rutherford,

Ohio, 1941.

They moved their headquarters

from Pennsylvania over to

the

State

Kingdom

Halls.

Don't

the

Watchtower images

right

now, those

witnesses?

Well, it's certainly a very helpful summary.

And I want to make sure that our listeners have our email address in the event that

they have questions of their own.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of

residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Perhaps if you're a Jehovah's Witness, especially, and you don't want your fellow Jehovah's Witnesses to know that you're

listening to this, we would certainly welcome an anonymous question from you, even if you disagree

with our guest.

And we hope that you do join us with a question.

But anyone is welcome to write in anonymously if it's a personal and private matter.

If it's just a general question on theology, please give us at least your first name, city, and state, and

country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Well, before we go into the main theme of the false god and false Christ of

the Jehovah's Witnesses, why don't you give us also a summary of the principal

differences that Jehovah's Witnesses have with true biblical, orthodox,

evangelical Christianity.

The most fundamental

difference

is the

doctrine of

the

mortal

body, which

is

kingdom

-halled

by

144 ,000.

And the key

areas where they teach a false god and a false Christ,

some will readily understand, if they are Christians,

that their Christ is false.

But unfortunately, you have, in a day and age of

biblically illiterate Christians, or those that profess to be, you have

Bible -believing evangelicals giving somewhat of a pass to monotheists

who reject Christ.

They give a pass to the Jews probably more than anyone because of the sensitivity involved

in the fact that Jews globally have been the recipients

of horrific, nightmarish, satanic persecution for centuries.

And the most memorable of all, since we see it

daily on the TV listings for documentaries on the Nazis and

the Holocaust, was in fact the genocide of Jews during the Third Reich

in the earlier part of the 20th century.

So you have folks who are very timid to dare

question whether or not our Jewish friends and neighbors will be in heaven

without Christ.

And of course, Muslims, you even have some professing evangelicals

making the claim that Muslims can be in heaven.

You have the Roman Catholic Church and the Catechism of the Catholic Church claiming that Muslims

and others are going to be in heaven or that they adore the same true

God as Christians do, even though they reject Christ.

So you may have some including the Jehovah's Witnesses in that because the Jehovah's Witnesses on many

counts share a biblical morality with evangelicals.

I'm not right now aware of anything that they would disagree upon

other than things that they have added.

Of course, they would think it is immoral to receive a blood transfusion because they equate that with the eating of blood,

which is forbidden by Paul.

But in fact, why don't you just briefly start on that because that is a very serious issue.

There have been children and adults who have died because of

themselves or family members forbidding blood transfusions.

Why don't you talk a bit about that?

Yes, and I've personally met people who lost their church

in Canada who

is

negligent

and

rotten.

Well, as

long

as

you're

not going to

save any of us, because

it

says

that in

terms

of Google,

and say, yeah, we believe in the Trinity, we affirm

the apostles

preached, which was the gospel of grace outside of works.

Then you come under the anathema of God,

by Moses Maimonides.

One of

the

articles

of faith is

that

Maimonides

did

believe in God.

This is something that Larry Hurtado demonstrated.

It's something

that

Alan

Seagal

demonstrated

today.

There should be no one else that

should come to them,

but that's what the Lord.

Now, in this day and age, you have some of the major

cults adopting a totally different model of public relations,

where they are trying to appeal to the sensitivities of

evangelicals by not, as they once did, claiming to

be the one true church, the one true spokespersons for God, you

have the Mormons today conducting themselves in a very different manner, those that are

their missionaries, going door to door and evangelizing in public

at one time, making it fairly clear at some point during the conversation that

they were a part of the one true church.

Now, I have personally experienced Mormons, basically these

young men, specifically who are in their early 20s and so on,

approaching me with a whole different rhetoric, even starting off

by saying, you know, you probably heard that Mormons believe that they're the only true church, and every other

Christian is false, every other church is false.

Well, that's not true.

We just believe that we're another denomination just like you.

Well, that was unheard of in Mormonism for...

Right.

...for nearly the entirety of its existence until very recently.

Are the Jehovah's Witnesses at least logically and consistently

remaining steadfast with their views that we who

are Bible -believing evangelicals are not going to inherit the new earth

with them?

In fact, they don't even know for certain if they are.

But are they holding fast to the view that they are the only true

spokespersons for God and that they alone, if they are faithful enough,

they alone will inherit the new earth?

Well, they remain.

They're

a

prophet

of

the

denomination

for themselves.

They

believe

that they

hold secular governments,

the

United

Nations,

Centrism for

themselves.

Okay,

we

have a listener in Bangor, Maine, John, who asks,.

I know that the Mormons, fairly close to the beginning of the cult in the 19th

century, was plagued with splits and further mutated splinter

groups.

And I don't even know if we can number the actual number of splinter groups

under the heading of Mormonism or followers of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon that exists today.

Has there been such splintering in the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Well, no.

There

was

a

new

group,

which

is

some

today,

Star Theology,

the

Rails,

that

the

modern

Pope's

Church or

the RLDS

Church

teaches.

They're headquartered in Independence, Missouri,

LDS.

There's some smaller...

We see this

in the

Philadelphia Church of God, the United Church of God.

Now, for 15 years, I worked as an account executive

for WMCA Christian Radio, which is an

affiliate of the largest Christian network in the world, Salem Media.

And the former location, before they moved to New

York City, their current location, and even before their most recent

location before that, Hasbro Heights, for I think most of my time

working for WMCA, when I had to commute there at least once a week, they were located

in Rutherford, New Jersey.

And I remember frequently, in fact, every time I was there in

Rutherford, I would pass the headquarters for Dawn Bible Students

Association in East Rutherford.

Yes.

And I understand that they are a breakaway group that broke away quite some time ago.

Correct. Correct.

They are not mass, on Bible

students.

Let's see.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, are not a lot of the

heresies taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses stemming from the fact that they have a false

version of the scriptures that have been rewritten in certain areas to

fit their works righteousness and Arian theology, where the actual

wording has been changed from the original Greek, although they adamantly claim otherwise.

Yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses, of course, have their own Bible translation.

It's called the

New World Translation

of the Holocene,

only to

the

truly

condemned, the Daily

Devotional

Bible.

Typically, we do not divulge the name.

We don't have any NIV,

NAS, write in and

request.

I think it's on their website.

So what they've

done, Chris, John

1, 1, for example, in their translation,

the deity,

and

they

took

that passage and they

mistranslated it as in him,

through him all things were made.

John 8, 58, where Jesus says, before

Abraham was, means

literally,

it's a

translation, a term that has never been heard

of by anyone.

Okay, we have a listener in Queens, New York.

Johnny, great to hear Dr. Costa back on the air, looking forward to his future discussion on social

Marxism.

In accordance with Jehovah's Witness theology, the 144 ,000 that may enter heaven

from revelation is now fulfilled and closed.

Does door -to -door witness, I think he meant to say, do door -to

-door witnesses still proclaim heaven in their proclamation, or are their hope, or

she probably should have said, is their hope in their message based solely on the promise of

paradise earth?

Are any of the Jehovah's Witness elders alive today still qualified to make prophetic claims?

Who are the ones now writing awake in other Jehovah's Witness literature?

Oh, you have several questions there.

I think you already addressed the issue of the 144 ,000.

You may expand upon what you said before if you'd like, but also, are there

any, according to this cult, elders alive today still qualified to make

prophetic claims?

And I'll ask you the last question after you get through the 144 ,000 and that question.

Yeah,

well, it

can

become

part of the anointed

class, Passover,

but that is only for the members of the heavenly class, the 144 ,000.

Who then is leading the watchdog?

Well, they are considered

the...

In fact, Tony, we're going to have to let you pick up where I left off, because I went way

beyond.

This time has been flowing by or flying by so quickly.

I should have taken a break 13 minutes ago.

So, folks, I'm just going to take a briefer than normal break here, and then we'll have to

extend a break somewhere else in the show.

But we hope that you join us on the air with your own question at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arntzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Tony Costa.

We're speaking about the false god and false Christ of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

And I had to interrupt you when you were in the middle of talking about, uh,

do any, you were answering, uh, Johnny from Queens, New York, one of his questions that involved do any,

uh, Jehovah's Witness Elders today have a prophetic gift?

Howard, the only

ones who have

the Holy

Spirit

are very clear, do not understand the Bible.

They have the right to interpret the scriptures.

The laity don't have that right.

While the events of the

19th, the

generation that

came would

not be realized

with that

reference to

the year 1820,

they're going to claim.

And, um, I'm trying to remember if you answered all of Johnny's questions.

Uh, let's see here, Johnny, uh, oh, he, he says, who are the ones now writing Awake

and other JW literature?

Yeah, these would be, uh, these would be editors, uh, at the Watchtower in, uh,

in, uh, you don't know who the writers are, the

Care magazine or an Awake magazine.

You'll notice there is no authors, the names, the

identities of, of

the, of the author body.

Um, everything is clear and it's

basically

an editorial team and

the auspices.

Well, thank you, Johnny.

And, uh, you, uh, to be dependent upon for excellent questions.

So keep sending those questions in and keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Queens,

New York.

Uh, we have a mutual friend who has written in

brother Gary judge, uh, who is the pastor of Sovereign Grace

Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts.

And I usually don't give the full identity of, of listeners unless they are pastors that I can in

good conscious, very hardly recommend.

And by the way, for those of you wondering how to find out more about Sovereign Grace Chapel in

Southbridge, Massachusetts, go to Sovereign Grace MA, which is the abbreviation for Massachusetts,

SovereignGraceMA .org.

But pastor Gary says in seminary, I heard esteemed professor, Dr. Meredith Klein.

And of course, Dr. Meredith Klein being one of the finest women scholars, uh,

finest female scholars is whoever lived.

And I am kidding folks.

I know that Meredith Klein is a man.

He ranks up there with Lorraine Bettner and, uh, Kim Riddlebarger, but, uh,

yes.

And Kim Riddlebarger.

Um, uh, but anyway, he says, Dr. Meredith Klein, uh, said that

Michael, the archangel was Jesus Christ.

Other respected commentators concur.

How does the JW view on Michael, the archangel different from differ from these

orthodox evangelicals?

And that is a very excellent question.

And we're going to have you answer that question when we return from the midway break, which we have to go to right

now.

And that is a longer than normal break folks.

Please, please be patient with us as we go to this longer break because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake

city, Florida requires of us the longer break in the middle because they air this show twice daily in a prerecorded

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist seminary.

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Before we return to Dr. Tony Costa's discussion on the Jehovah's Witnesses, we

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Tony Costa about the false God and false Christ of the

Jehovah's Witnesses.

Our email address is chrisarnsend at gmail .com.

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And as you may recall, Tony, our brotherness,

Gary Judge in Southbridge, Massachusetts, was

stating that Meredith Klein taught that Michael the Archangel was Jesus Christ.

In fact, I have heard a handful of other very highly respected

evangelicals and even Reformed evangelicals make that claim.

So how does their claim, and specifically Meredith Klein's claim, differ from the Jehovah's Witness view on

that?

Yeah, well, first of all, I'm glad to hear that's great.

And readers like

Matthew

Henry, if you read

Matthew Henry's book,

Revelation, they're available online.

I

believe

that

Michael, but

that

it

was

another title for

now.

Now part of the problem, I think, with this view, and I don't think there's,

I think that doesn't

really

mean one who is like God.

It is

actually

that

has the

warrior

angel.

He is

also

the, Jude

tells

us, the

Archangel Michael, when

he

was dispensed

the devil, but

he said

the word

that can never

be said about the retaliation.

Matthew Henry and others.

And that would be pretty much similar to the circumstance that you have with,

sometimes you have noted evangelicals that surprise

their fellow evangelical Protestants when they adhere to a teaching that is not common

amongst evangelicals.

Like even D .A. Carson believes that Peter was the

rock of which Jesus Christ spoke of when he

said, thou art Peter, and this is the rock upon which I build my church.

Most evangelicals teach that that is the profession

that Jesus is Lord, that is the rock upon which the church is built.

But D .A. Carson and some others believe that he was talking about Peter, just like the Roman

Catholics believe.

The huge difference is that D .A. Carson and no evangelical

worth his salt would claim that there were successors that followed the line of the Roman Catholic bishops.

Right, right, right.

And in every Scotsman and most...

And he stops with, yeah, and he stops with, anyway, that's my

impression of D .A. Carson.

And also the same could be said, Chris, the same could be said about, of course, we were on

Chris Gate, and the same can be said about a majority of evangelicals.

And, of course, far less orthodox, infinitely less orthodox than

Meredith Klein and Matthew Henry had the late Harold Camping, who

was really the head of his own cult eventually.

He believed that Jesus was Michael the archangel as well.

But our second question from Pastor Gary George

is, was Michael Jackson a Jehovah's Witness at one time?

And do you know of any other celebrities who are Jehovah's Witnesses?

Yes, I happen to know that the whole family was at one time.

I don't know if Michael continued to profess to be a Jehovah's Witness

right up until the time of his death.

Maybe you know something I don't know.

Yeah, well, he was.

There's another celebrity there.

Apparently, he vacillated back and forth on his stance for

or against homosexuality and same -sex marriage.

And, you know, so he wasn't like a thoroughly committed Jehovah's Witness, but he basically in a waffling

sort of way, from what I understand, maintained some kind of affiliation, at least in his profession,

even up until the time of his death.

Um, and, uh, do you know?

Oh, that was the answer to the other question, Prince.

But do you know of any other celebrities?

Not that I know of, no.

Okay, well, thank you, Brother Gary George, pastor of Sovereign Grace Chapel

in Southbridge, Massachusetts.

And remember, sovereigngracema .org is the website

for his church.

We have Cynthia in Findlay,

Ohio.

Hello, Chris and Dr. Costa.

Thank you for taking the time to read my question.

I have an assortment of Jehovah's Witness literature, and I recall a particular statement made by the

Watchtower Society, which I am unable to locate in my documents.

I'm wondering if you recall a statement similar to the following.

If a man reads the Bible without the assistance of the Watchtower literature, he will come to the conclusion that

God is a trinity.

This is not the exact wording, but is representative of the idea.

Thank you, Chris and Dr. Costa, for today's show.

Well, have you ever heard anything like that, that they...

Yes, yes.

And as a matter of fact, I don't know if I...

I thought I saw a copy of that very folkshare on my desk.

That's an amazing admission, because most cults say the opposite, that you would never come to

that conclusion from the Bible alone, that God is a trinity.

Well, it's amazing that Cynthia asked that

question, because I was 1990,

and this is page 19, and here's the quote, and

it says this, quote, this is from the Watchtower, We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers

who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah's visible organization worldwide.

And then it says, let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never... we

would not have discovered the truth regarding Jehovah, his purposes and attributes, the meaning and

importance of his name, the organization, and

Satan's.

Know why God has permitted wickedness.

So this is just one among many.

There are...

Bible by yourself and

so

forth.

Let's see, RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, Although most

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that there is only one true God and he is Jehovah, are

they really not monotheists, but actually henotheists

who believe in one supreme God amongst lesser gods, or at least

one other lesser God being Jesus Christ in their theology?

That is an interesting observation because I have heard the

same thing, especially when a Jehovah's Witness might be cornered in a

discussion or debate when they are claiming that the Greek

of the New Testament is teaching that in the beginning was the Word

and the Word was a God rather than the Word was God.

If you're saying that the Word Jesus Christ was a God, then you are saying he was a

God, and you're making the claim he was not, however, equal to Jehovah.

So do you agree with that assessment that they are, even if they wouldn't call themselves henotheists?

Yes, this is one issue I've also...

I agree with the questioner, and that is, Jehovah's Witnesses are

not true monotheists in the

minds of those who do not believe.

Their

whole

life

is

this.

And don't they believe that they are gods as,

when they're quoting the Old Testament, ye are gods?

Well, this is by Charles Russell.

They said the 144 ,000 are gods,

144 ,000 are Christ's spirit brothers, and therefore they,

because they rule with Jesus.

The only problem though, Chris, is that there's a difference between someone being

God by nature

and a true

God.

What is the appropriate...

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry?

Go ahead, I interrupted you mid -sentence there.

Go ahead.

No, no, I was just saying that whichever way you slice it, Jehovah's

Witnesses are not Christ and Satan.

Now, how would you properly exegete Psalm 82, 6?

I said you are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High.

I mean, the two main interpretations, the predominant interpretation has been that the judge is

there.

So the word Elohim in 7 Messengers,

it seems to

be referring, in the immediate context, it's some beings there.

A party group in Sochaisa, for example,

and others were judges.

Humanity thought about that Psalm as well.

I

think

the

reference,

and the

reason why,

and so, things.

Now, again, there are others.

I know Dr. James White.

We have, let's see.

We have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who said you were

listing splinter groups earlier from the Jehovah's Witness, and you failed

to mention the Christian Witnesses of JAH, a group formed

by former Jehovah's Witness, Greg Stafford, who was one of their only

apologists at one time debating Christians in public, including Dr. James R. White.

That's interesting.

Yes, I had heard that Greg Stafford was forced out.

I can't remember exactly if he was forced out or voluntarily left when he knew that the writing was on the wall.

But Greg Stafford, who was a force to be reckoned with, according to Dr. White himself,

he knew that he was acting as a maverick when he was debating

people like James without the expressed permission of the Watchtower and Track Society, because they

don't even believe in that kind of interaction with evangelicals.

So, I know that he did form the Christian Witnesses of JAH, but I don't know if that's

actually a group.

I don't know if you know whether or not this is only a group of one person, Greg Stafford, or if he

actually has members who...

Yeah, yeah.

That's why I didn't really mention them, because of that.

I'll just note there have been a bunch of groups coming out of the Watchtower, but they're not as significant as what we see, for

example, at...

Well, we have to go to our final break.

It's going to be shorter than the last break, so you don't have to worry about that, folks.

But please, if you intend to send in a question, send it in immediately, because we are rapidly

running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And as always, please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We are going to be right back with more of Dr. Tony Costa and Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Thank you.

Welcome back.

And Dr. Tony Costa, we have a question for you from Mary in Cork,

Ireland.

Mary in Cork, Ireland wants to know, what are the best verses to use when

confronting a Jehovah's Witness in defense of the deity of Jesus Christ?

Yes, the method that I use actually pertains to the

son of God with power by the resurrection.

This is when they do come to my door,

believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

I try not to keep told not to listen to anyone, but they

believe about the resurrection and they'll say, yes, we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

And I mentioned to them, do you believe that Jesus

Christ rose bodily from the grave?

And they'll say, well, no, we don't believe that.

We believe that Jesus Christ was raised as a spirit.

I would ask them to pass a scripture to me.

I take them to John chapter 2, verses 18 to 22.

That's John chapter 2, verses 18 to 22, where Jesus cleanses the temple.

And then the religious leaders ask him, by what authority do you do these things?

And then Jesus says, destroy this temple.

And in two days, I will raise it up again.

But that passage, he

would raise himself, say the father raised.

Now, as Trinitarians, we believe the father, the son of the Holy

Spirit points out, he will do this himself.

Now it's

important

because my

feet, it

is I

myself, flesh and bone as

I have a presence to show, of course, the reality of his

resurrected body.

And then after that, I take them to John 20, verses 26 to 29.

And there we

have the look at

my hands and more

than my God

passage,

because the risen Christ appears to Thomas and invites Thomas to

tangibly prove and see that it is really him.

John 1, 1, and it's considered to be the climax of the Gospel of John, where Thomas

confesses, finally, the doubter, Thomas, the doubter, Lord

and God.

You know, Thomas just, you know,

Thomas is Lord and God.

And Jesus, of course, you believe, let's

look at those three passages.

Number one, Jesus said he would raise his own body from the dead.

That would keep the

watchtower verified that it is

truly him risen from the dead by showing the marks in his hands and feet and eating food.

And number three, Lord and God

by Thomas himself, the doubter.

So this is a wonderful way to reach Jehovah's Witnesses.

And it also ends with Dr. James

R. White, years ago,.

Taught a very excellent pairing of Old and New Testament texts

that he has used that I still remember to this day as well that I

think you should use when speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses.

If you go to Psalm 102, 25 through 27, and you ask a

Jehovah's Witness, in the beginning, you said, in the beginning, in the beginning, you laid the

foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain.

They will all wear out like a garment, like clothing.

You will change them and they will be discarded.

But you remain the same and your years will never end.

And the question is then asked to the Jehovah's Witness.

Who is that?

Oh, that's Jehovah, of course.

And then, of course, you go to Hebrews chapter 1, 1 through 12.

And for the sake of time, you scroll down to

verse 8.

But about the sun, he says, your throne, O God, will last forever and ever.

That's your throne, O God, will last forever and ever.

A scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

And then going down to the last couple of verses, in the beginning, Lord, you laid the

foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain.

They will all wear out like a garment.

You will roll them up like a robe, like a garment.

They will be changed.

But you remain the same and your years will never end.

Obviously, if it's speaking about the sun, that is Jesus Christ.

And there is a similar pairing that we don't have time to go into with

Isaiah 6, 1 through 10, and John 12, 30 through 41.

But we are out of time right now.

Tony Costa, it's been such a pleasure.

Could you have a website that you can recommend our listeners go to to find out more about you and your ministry?

Well, I would just recommend go to my Facebook page.

Great.

And I want to thank everybody who listened today.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.