Marriage | S7 E8

Marriage as a Covenant Before God

Welcome back to the point taken podcast.

Thank you. Welcome to shoulder. Our backs are overused. Welcome. So let's cancel the episode.

Cancel the entire podcast. I've done that like two seasons. You're right and that's fair. But it also never should have happened in the first place in all of history today. We're talking about marriage and all that comes with it and we had on some special guests.

We had pastor Jeff and miss Gwen aka mom and dad and they talked About their initial struggles in their marriage how they had to work through some things to talk about some trying times some trials that God put them through.

They talked about how they grew in that and talked about the most important things in marriage and how to try to avoid societal pressures of what they say marriage should look like. Since our society mostly is abandoning that covenant and To focus only on what the Word of God says marriage should look like so we had a good discussion with them about that.

So without further ado, let's get into the episode.

So let's get to work. Let's get to work. Let's talk about marriage. Marriage. My wedge is what wings eyes together today.

Mom do you remember that movie Princess Bride? Yes. Yes. No.

Are oh the rodents of unusual size though. It is our us is the rodents of extraordinary size.

Do you remember that movie a vaguely? Yeah, I just see him dying inside like he was all pumped up before.

Only thing I remember is the Spanish guy doing, you know prepared to die.

Now remember because okay have fun storming the castle. Yeah.

They're gonna make it.

So marriage, all right, so Why don't we start a hundred you you jump in when you want? Why don't we start with a definition? So I think by the way mom and dad, these are my parents. These are Gwen and Jeff Shipley mom.

Start us off with what's the definition of marriage?

A.

Man and a woman don't start with with that. It's necessary start these days a man and a woman that Make a union and a covenant before God to live life together. In however, you define that life but man and woman covenant with God.

And each other. And what is a covenant? It's a promise a biblical.

You're doing good.

Feels like a test right now. I know I like I got just got nervous.

I.

Can you roll with that one. That's.

That's it. I mean, it's it's some people always say well, it's just a piece of paper. I always laugh and I'm like, well, so is money, but you spend your life working for it, you know. It's more than a piece of paper, it's so much more than a piece of paper.

In fact, it's not a piece of paper. Marriage as she said. So perfectly it is a covenant in a triune factor I should say in a Trinity factor between a man a woman and God and It should always Reflect that but because of our failures it doesn't but that's what marriage is.

Piece of paper that that's the wedding certificate. Our goal was not to be wed. It was to have a marriage and to build a life.

So when did either of you to come to that real? Realization of that definition of marriage when you were a kid. You got older after you got married.

When did you for me after I got married? I was clueless. Yeah, she took advantage of me and tricked me into marriage. No, I was clueless. I was clueless. I was clueless had to be a father clueless had to be a husband.

I was clueless. She Gwen your mother was Way ahead of the game. As far as you know recognizing What that is and she didn't have? always the greatest examples in her life either but You know She really understood better than I what marriage was.

Yeah, I would say I had. I was way ahead of the game with a mental understanding. But when it came how when it came to how? To put that in work clothes and carry it out. I.

We figured that out together still figuring some things out.

Marriage, Providence, and the Government’s Limited Role

So I was telling somebody earlier today I don't remember who it was, but I was telling someone earlier that I Really think that. That's why so early in our marriage God moved us to Wyoming because I I needed a separation from the codependency I had with my family that was not healthy and he needed a separation from the friends that he had grown up With.

I think that it would have been way too easy that we would have both had voices in our heads About how unfair this is and how he should be doing this and how she's nagging you about this that God knew that was gonna be more than we could overcome so as Our first step in ministry.

He moved us very far away from all of those things that made us Feel secure and then he built a security in the two of us together. Was very hard though.

What was the biggest challenges with that.

I mean, I don't know how to choose one. Everything was so challenging.

I mean what what point in your marriage did it happen? Like how long were y 'all together before you had to years?

The first years before y 'all moved to Wyoming or used for y 'all. No even after. So just let me let me help.

Define some time frames here, so We were dating and I had just become a Christian not too long before that met her at the church. We were going with. She had grown up a church her whole life. We started dating and it was definitely just nothing more than a latching on For both of us, you know as far as Love and honor and respect and all that.

I mean, you know, we didn't beat up on each other, but it was just convenience emotional convenience. She got pregnant for we don't know how yet still but She got pregnant and we had our daughter and I'll never forget this.

She said well, we need to go in front of the church and apologize and in my mind I can remember well in my voice I'm like, I ain't doing that. I don't know. Yeah, I don't owe them people nothing and She broke up with me Over that well that and my in fairness to her my unwillingness to follow through with God.

I.

Was extremely rebellious and immature.

And.

She said this is the way I'm going and you're not going that way so she broke up with me and.

You are a brand new believer.

Yeah, I don't. Maybe maybe a year. Yeah.

So you were you were very young in the faith and you got saved but maturing process was stifled a bit.

Correct, and that I I was I was no longer doing Any hard drugs or anything like that? But I was still Selling weed. I was still doing other things. Because you know make money. Right right, you know, it's just fine.

But what it really was is is I was trying to take back some of the things I had surrendered to God like dependence. Security, you know ethics, you know, I was trying to justify and you know. It's easy to sit there and blame and say well I didn't have this understand.

When you're a Christian the Holy Spirit convicts you of what you need to be working on and I was in full resistance of it, so She broke up with me she had Ashley and I slowly started Submitting to the Lord and about five months later.

We got married. So, you know, it was a total of what 14 months 15. I don't know 13 I don't know how many how long it was and Then not long after that. I was working in a martial arts ministry and we were going to church at a little church over here in Nutbush and.

A.

Pastor in Wyoming said they needed help with their youth in Wyoming and she was like, let's go. I'm all for it. And I was like, no Barnum Wyoming no. But you know once again God had to work on me and we moved to Wyoming and.

That that as she said and she was very correct that that three years in Wyoming.

Was.

Everything as far as education to begin to the foundation of that education to begin to be built on and. We spent three years there and it was tough. It was it was tough tough.

I mean, it was tough marriage wise because we didn't have a solid foundation yet. Neither one of us, you know, there were feelings.

Of.

Love but not a biblical love. It was the kind that came and went as you got irritated and frustrated and fed up. It wasn't a genuine love that we've now learned and come to understand and rely on you know.

We were when I say poor I mean poor I Mean like we didn't always have food. We were alone. Outside of each other and and God. And God took advantage of that time. That's where I think the marriage started growing.

There wasn't anybody else to turn to when you were really sad or had a hard time. It was us, I mean we went there and knew nobody. Wow and.

It was rough, yeah.

Obviously, I live in the same city with my parents and my wife's parents. All of those group of people go to church here so the idea of not having anyone to turn to. It's not foreign from my mind, but it is foreign from my experience.

Like a hundred percent so that that is. But you know. He I guess, you know Jesus had some people stay in Jerusalem. He had a bunch of other people go a bunch of other places. There's always a reason for that.

I guess I wanted to When I want y 'all to talk more about that. But I did want to ask you guys. Maybe you because you just said a question about you said the certificate earlier. And if you don't want to say this for later.

What role?

Do we want the government to have in marriage. Because if I can frame this not at all what I was expecting I love it. Okay, and here's why. Here's why and I mean this from biblical perspective. I have my own thoughts on this but I wanted to put this in y 'all's court.

On one hand Marriage is a covenant between God a man and woman not God a man and woman in the state of Tennessee. On the other hand we want to live in a place that honors the idea of a biblical Union.

So what's the balance? So Wow, I mean their politics church history. You've hit everything with this. Actually, what's really cool is the early Puritans did not include the church in marriage it was a civil union between a man and a woman and.

When you said didn't include the church you mean the.

Authority was a Contract between that man and that woman. Mediators God no other human involved that man and that woman.

Early Puritans. Let's just go ahead and say. Marriage started biblically started at the Bible. So the early Puritans were changing what marriage was well.

No.

See.

Back in biblical times it was done within the family units right validated within the family and then the synagogue. The Puritans took that a step further and said this is between a man a woman and God and so it was kind of a Moving more towards that man woman and God.

The state the government Unfortunately at this time is involved and I say unfortunately because of this. There is no accountability with the government there's none. What it should be is between man and woman.

Man woman and God. Man woman and God the church and families. That's that that's where the accountability should shop. The government should be not involved at all.

However.

You can't sit there on one side and say well, okay, but we can't allow incest. Well, we can't allow minors.

We can't allow this. We want a government that looks like the biblical principles. So you.

Correct and so I think there needs to be a greater.

A.

Greater emphasis on families and church not just pastor church. Family as a whole, but it's the times we live in. But at the essence no matter how it plays out in Reality, it is between a man a woman and God just as she said earlier.

That's the way it is and ultimately.

That's how God planned it out. It is interesting though. When he set up a human government in Israel. He you a human government it's weird because ours looks so different from what there's did but. For the reasons you just said he had judges, if you will to.

Make sure that the definition of marriage that miss Gwynne defined Was in order. If it wasn't it was enforced, right? Because they were required to live in society to honor marriage the way God saw it so there were limitations with age with gender with animals.

Like all types of them. Sorry.

Let's just funny all the things that we have to have guidelines for and it's one of my favorite points that you ever made. And everybody did right what was right in their sight and what was right in their sight was some of the worst things you could.

Have ever heard of right? It's like the darkest book of the Bible Book of Judges ends with and everyone did what was right in their own eyes. The danger is not everyone does what they know is wrong. But danger is everyone does what they know is right and that's why I was like.

It's a consistent joke like who puts all these warning labels on things like who's stupid like well You know if you don't outline it There are going to be people who do these things and you want to drive their hair in the bathtub, right?

Was like on the same vein. It's just like well if God doesn't outline it like he does in these books, right? There are gonna be putting people putting their children on burning statues and it's like wow so it's just another point of.

That's crazy. What. All that needs to be outlined and enforced. So how many years into y 'all's marriage would you say? Not that y 'all had it like y 'all had it you were you were on the path both walking in the same direction.

I'll say by year three.

She was surprised by that answer.

I'm not saying we had obtained that but I'm saying that both walking that I would say by year three. There was no longer thoughts of oh my god. I've made the biggest mistake of my life. Is it too late to end this right?

Yes, you got rid of the way out idea. You get rid of the idea, I mean I knew I never really had.

And and some of that I know this goes against society but some of that you watch this podcast recently that's okay. You know, I started out in nursing school and. Got to the point where once you were born I was like, this is a weight.

I can't carry anymore. I cannot mother two children and attend school full-time. So I went ahead and dropped out at that point.

That was here in Memphis, right?

Before we moved to Wyoming and I remember when I matured a little bit more when we were still in the rough parts of marriage. But I was really working at it and matured more. I remember looking back and saying if I'd finished nursing school, I would have had a way out.

I saw that as God's provision. He had a better plan for me that I couldn't understand and.

I.

Mean I look back on my life at all the times not that humor actually saved me by some miracle. He saved me from stupid, you know, he took away Bad options that in my sin or my ignorance or my immaturity.

I mean because we were way young I mean I was 19 when I got married. But I can honestly say because of the work that we both put in I Can't think of a single time where I looked back and said man. I really missed those college days those Freedom single days.

I I can't think of a single time that I felt that way and I count that as a blessing. But again, it was hard work it was a choice. I mean I can remember Looking at my family and saying this is where I've committed my life.

I Can be miserable or I can build something really great and he kind of was at the same same spot. We can be miserable and fight or we can build something great. Yep it well you said it perfectly.

It's a choice and During the rough times it's an everyday choice and I'll be honest there are days where I'm just like exhausted mentally, you know. And emotionally and spiritually. But in a day you got to do the choice you have to make that choice and I think that's something Hollywood and humans in general Throughout time even in medieval times the romantic ideas They play lies into your head and thinking that marriage and love is somehow this euphoric Continuous ever-growing feeling and I can just tell you I missed that boat.

I've never met anyone in 30 years of counseling that had that. Because once again, we go back to what miss Gwen said earlier. It's a covenant. It's that's devoid of feelings opinions Sit circumstances situations.

It is a covenant and sometimes You know when she's crazy or I'm stupid. It still has to be a choice and I've been stupid a bunch and She had to make a choice. Well, no, I'm perfect. No, right. Yeah.

It's my turn to be crazy a bunch. His stupid days are over now.

I'm stupid a bunch. But yeah, it's it boils down to choice.

Priest, Provider, Protector, and the Wife’s Role

So when you guys were, you know, you said around year three, you're starting to head in the correct direction. What are some things specifically that you guys started to do?

That great question. So so I think you first have to well, let me rephrase. Let me tell you what what I did. I was clueless on how to be a father. I was I sort of understood Husband, but I understood it through the carnal Societal or cultural norm in other words.

I thought my job was to put a roof over the head food on the table go to work. That's what my job is and and sorry and and and I've I've come to find out that's kind of silly. One of the things I tell everybody is the state of Tennessee does that for orphans every day that didn't make them bad.

So it's not putting roof overhead and food on the table. And so I've come up with priest provider protector as a way from the male perspective the husband's perspective. Like to be a priest and I failed in this a bunch just like everybody else.

But you know is to lead my family towards Christ. And then to provide Means and and this doesn't make sense to a lot of people. But what I provide for my house is security. And I'm not talking again. You know the North Koreans falling out of the sky on parachutes and screaming Wolverine and grabbing my gun and you know.

Not that when I mean security is security that brings peace. If the father and the husband is doing what he should be doing there will be peace in the home. There'll be a place where Everyone can comes everyone knows the role and there's just peace.

There's not rebellion and chaos and all that. That's what you're really providing now. Putting a roof over the head and food on the table. Yeah, that's part of that provisional peace. But I'm telling you it's it's.

You really are providing the leadership to provide that peace and then protection and I always tell young men this. The number one thing you have to protect your wife from is your mouth. Yep. Your children is your mouth your words can destroy or build and They can cut.

If you have people who have trusted you and are following you and then you turn and You're worthless. You're stupid. You're you're pathetic. You're those those words Destroy and You really have to protect your family from your your words your mouth and and it's hard.

It's hard because all of that those three combined take a continual desire for humility and sacrifice and it's difficult, but You know what? You want to be married? That's what it costs or you can choose to.

Rebel against God and then everything will rebel against you and you're gonna be miserable. I heard someone put it this way Tell me what you think about this when you said priest. If you think about priests and prophets of the Old Testament a priest represented his people before God a Prophet represented God before his people.

That's correct. That's what I thought about it. So a father is a priest and that I mean mostly in prayer. But he's the spiritual leader of the home and he Represents his family to God. He's a prophet to them that he wrote like this is how it's gonna be this is what God's Word says.

We are moving in that direction. So he's a prophet and that he represents God before his people. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I've heard it that way. Yeah, absolutely. I am I Realize something. I think I said this on a podcast before The word provide I think I think we've talked about this here literally means to see.

And for the longest time I did not understand the connection to see so Yahweh Jireh Jehovah Jireh the Lord provides Means the Lord sees to it because we have that little phrase in English that helps us to see to it.

Yeah.

So when pastor Jeff says the husband provides this provides this. There are a myriad of ways he can do that his jobs at the end of the day to see to it that it gets. Done whatever that takes he sees to it.

So the job of a husband is a see to it or mm-hmm a solution provider. Well said.

When there is no way you figure it out. There is a problem.

The problem has been identified. A Husband has to be a solution finder. Yep.

I've often said you don't have the right to say I don't know. You don't have that right you. Your job is to provide to see to that this gets solved whatever the problem is and and it's tough. You know because our culture is divided or is inundated with this idea that money is the solution to problems.

And that can't be further than the truth. And so you can't simply reach your hand in your pocket. And my kids in rebellion. They need counseling money, you know. Oh, they need to go to a private school or my wife.

Is this money or my money? It's it's a it. That's not the answer. The answer is provisionally. You're saying to the problem based upon what the Word of God says.

Isn't it interesting that two of the main? Descriptions of God in relation to his people or husband and father. Yeah, and he's called the Heavenly Father. Phrases in the Bible Jerusalem dressed like a bride exactly the Bride of Christ.

As far as the money goes I really like how convenient that is of a way to.

Shove.

Responsibility on to somebody else. It's like the number one reason why money can't be. The way somebody runs a marriage or household is because all it does is provide a way for you to not have to do.

They're a hundred percenters. Well said on well said so.

As far as the wife is concerned, I know that you and I were talking about the roles of what a Wife should be doing in the household and in the marriage. Do you speak to that on it? Yeah, so.

To.

Dive off of what he said. You know, he's he's the priest and he is the spiritual provider and head of our house. But I look at you know, some people use the word completer. I'll look at that. He's given me the direction that our household is going Doesn't mean he lays out instructions when I want you to do one and then two and then three.

He's given me the direction and it's not just my responsibility. It's my desire. To carry out those directions to the very best that I can and when I don't understand directions if I'm doing it, right I go back and get confirmation.

Because he's ultimately going to be held accountable and that's a huge weight for him. And so it would be my desire for him to trust me in my desire for him to not be held Accountable for a mistake that I made so it's a team effort there as far as The household itself.

You can't get around it scripture is very clear that I am to be the manager of my home and That means all aspects of it Jeff asked me Years ago early in our marriage. He's always as a pastor's is a stressful thing to handles.

You come home with a lot of burdens and he just asked me. I just need to come home where it's safe I need and and knowing the the way he was raised in the situations. He was raised in. I knew what he was asking for so I would try to have the house.

Yes, neat was a part of it, but that wasn't the biggest part of it not in chaos. That when he came home It wasn't in chaos that yes. The kids could go run to him and greet him because he loved them and he wanted to be greeted by them but that he didn't walk in to screaming and You've got to spank them four times because you know it was.

It was peaceful. If that means that if I'm in a situation where I need to work The house still gets Cleaned if I delegate it to my children if I hire a housekeeper. It doesn't matter how I do it now I have my groceries delivered.

It's a splurge I have I can do that. I'm still managing.

Can you imagine doing that when you were in Wyoming?

Oh no.

We didn't get groceries.

I was about to say like imagine having groceries.

There was a deacon that delivered the day-old cereal and the day-old donuts and everything that was our great. We would walk out the kids would climb in the back of his pickup truck, and they would pick out the sugary most.

Unhealthy no nutrients whatsoever cereal, but they loved it because they knew what tricks were you know. They knew what the name-brand was but um. But when he was talking about Peace it just came to my mind, and I don't know I Probably will cry if you disagree with me, but I would.

Morning. It's like a disclaimer I.

Would like to believe that my children never felt like their parents were going to separate just any day. That that our house was at peace because they were confident and assure even if we disagreed. That it our marriage was not at stake that we talked about things.

I mean we talked Openly with our kids a lot of times like if things were tough financially we just said here's where we are. We want you to know we're not going to be stressed about this God is going to provide.

But this is where we are and I think our kids found security in that. I think they found security in the fact that I Knew and they knew that daddy is always going to pick me. That we are a team and that we are not going anywhere and that They were secondary, but that secondary didn't make them feel Unimportant and made them feel secure.

So I feel like that's a lot of what my roles are. I don't know if that answered your question.

No.

It does in a lot of ways and it prompted more things because I'm what I'm noticing is a really common theme of Very different very Defined and decided roles very much communication 100 and it's like and I related to that.

You know while you were talking about that is because my parents did a pretty one of the biggest things that I really loved and what? Got me to feel a lot closer to my parents growing up is One time they set us all down and said here's exactly what's going on with our finances.

And here's why we're not going to be having these things.

I.

Need more out of you in this area because we have to cancel trash collection. So, you know 100 your job is going to be to drive this to the dump or whatever. But it's like it was a this is exactly what's happening.

We're a team kind of so it's like when things were bad there wasn't a Line there wasn't a keeping up an appearance even because a lot of people do that to their own kids. Which is surprising to me, but it's like you're trying to make sure that your kids Have this.

You know have this feeling of oh we have everything. But if you don't have everything, you know, it's a lot more valuable at least in my experience for the parents to say We don't have everything and here's why.

Here's what's happening, you know. So I I like that you guys have very defined and clear roles and that you're communicating. So when you guys defined your roles within your marriage, was that like clear conversation like this is what I'm doing.

This is what you're doing. Yeah, I would say so. I mean.

Maybe not at year three. No, right.

Yeah, I mean it's they're so clearly defined in Scripture. I mean, it's it's it is the Bible.

Yeah, you had a head start you already said but as you go from the Bible, it's understood, right?

You know, the Bible is very clear that the woman is the keeper of the home as she said the manager of the home. That doesn't mean she can't work outside the home Proverbs 31, but it does mean she's the manager of the home.

But it also means that if something's wrong It's my job to take care of it to see to it as you said and I can't blame her for a lack of Provision if I'm not providing it in the oversight and the leadership.

So they were very clear defined roles. They were clear and defined roles and parenting, excuse me. They were clear and defined roles and everything. They were clear and defined roles for our children.

You know, I remember telling my kids. I love your mom more than I ever love you. Emotionally that's hard to do but it was it was really important I think for the kids to know that my wife and I are not going to revolve around you.

Y 'all are gonna revolve around us, you know.

The Priority of God, Marriage, and Children

It is amazing. The parts of our society. Since our society was built on Mostly a biblical foundation even when we failed to meet that out. You can see it in our framework. Where we have maintained that even unbelievers who are accidentally following that see blessings from that.

Where we have deviated from that we see horrendous issues with that. You know, I don't remember what the divorce rate in our nation is, but it's higher than a lot of third world nations. It is amazing though.

When I was teaching I've told this story here before. Maybe my second year teaching I had my first daughter Ava and I showed a picture of her to one of the mothers of my students who was a very involved mother very good mother.

I taught two of her children. She like parent-teacher conferences after school like all that kind of stuff and She just smiled. She goes. Did you ever think you could love some somebody so much? I Said yeah my wife.

And they just never occurred to her. Because she Has believed that a mother's love for her children is the greatest form of love on the planet. But it just struck me a few years ago when I was reading Ephesians 5 Blank love your blank like Jesus loved the church.

And if you just think Jesus like Christ loved the church, we can all all Christians can agree. That's the highest form of love ever showed right? I think if you're asked the average person They would fill in those blanks wrong.

They would say grandmothers love your grandchildren or mothers love your children, but it says husbands Love your wives like Christ loved the church. Greatest. God gets to compare one type of human love to his standard for how he loved the church and compares it to a husband.

To his wife. And what was the way Jesus loved the church by giving himself for her.

That's so I feel like that's just such an important thing to say because I feel like very naturally. Everybody will think well a mother to their their kid, but it's like, okay. How much worse will a mother going through postpartum depression feel if they think this is the?

Most love that you're ever supposed to have for anybody. Mm-hmm. You know I'm saying like and I'm feeling what I was like, well actually. The point that you just made so I thought that was really cool.