Kathy Keller and the Prime Directive (Part 1)

No Compromise Radio iconNo Compromise Radio

3 views

Kathy Keller and the Prime Directive (Part 1)

0 comments

Kathy Keller and the Prime Directive (Part 2)

00:01
Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.
00:08
No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the
00:16
Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.�
00:24
In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you.
00:30
By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the
00:37
Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King. Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.
00:46
Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and we try to do things biblically, provocatively, orderly.
00:57
Always biblical, always provocative, always in that order. I have been trying for the last 10 minutes to figure out how to do the
01:03
Facebook live video for the NoCo discussion group, NoCo group discussion, whatever it is, that private group.
01:11
I couldn�t figure it out. I go to Facebook on the app, I put live, and it just looks at me like I�m dumb.
01:18
I was going to try to just have this whole show live, kind of like a Todd Friel deal, where you could just,
01:25
I don�t know why you don�t want to watch me, but it�s the special insider things. But I could not do it.
01:32
I tried. I swiped my app off, tried to redo it, typed in even on Google Facebook live, �How do you do it ?�
01:42
It says, �Go to your place and go to live.� It wouldn�t work. Anyway, if you want to write me, info at nocompromiseradio .com.
01:50
Getting some more emails here or there. I don�t know. Maybe it�s just because, hey, how can you say, �How many shows have we done so far ?�
01:59
Let�s just assume there was no reruns. And with the cancer thing last year and other things, obviously there�s been some reruns, but eight years.
02:07
We�re coming up on eight years, completing eight years. Did they even podcast eight years ago?
02:13
What did they call that? And that�s 300 shows a year.
02:19
Wait, how many shows a year? If there�s no weekend shows, that�s a hundred, 250 a year times eight.
02:27
So, 2 ,000 shows. We�re coming up on 2 ,000, thousands, thousands upon thousands, crazy.
02:35
I am looking at https://medium .com
02:44
forward slash Redeemer city to city, lessons learned from 30 years in ministry.
02:50
Now, it�s dated March 12th, 2018, is that right, March 12th? And I thought, well, that catches the eye.
02:59
Lessons learned, 2 ,000, somebody tell me, do
03:05
I have the latest app? Do I have the latest app? I don�t know.
03:11
We�re going to find out right now since this is, you know, live radio and you get what you get. Updates, updates, updates, updates.
03:23
And since I like ministry, I thought this is going to be perfect, 30 years. I mean, I�ve been here 22 years, ministry in 25 years, you know, for 25 years doing gospel ministry.
03:36
Lessons learned. Now, this is just wonderful. What lessons could I learn? And it�s written by, of all people,
03:42
Kathy Keller. I thought, well, okay, lessons learned in ministry.
03:48
Let�s find out from the wife�s perspective, this is Tim Keller�s wife, let�s find out what she thinks about ministry and lessons learned.
03:56
And I have to tell you, no compromise radio style, it was awful. It was, I mean, it�s probably trite by now to say you thought it might have been
04:04
Babylon B or something. This is one of the most pragmatic things
04:11
I�ve ever read. And if you�re a big Keller fan, in terms of his theology and methodology, this is
04:20
Willow Creek but modern. This is pragmatism. This is if it works, fine, if not, go do something else.
04:29
And it says here at the very bottom to make sure we, let�s see, she�s co -authored three books, and she has raised sons, and she,
04:44
I think she went to Gordon Conwell, graduated from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, summa cum laude with her
04:51
MA in Theological Studies in �95. All right, well, this is awful,
04:57
I posted on Facebook, since I can�t figure out how to be on there live, just the first sentence, �Over the course of the early days of planting
05:07
Redeemer, when Tim was studying the demographics, meeting the people, seeing the mistakes and tone deafness of the failed church plants, and laying the groundwork for the church, we developed a set of core values for Redeemer.
05:23
These are lessons learned, she said, from trial and error.
05:29
Not everything, she said, that they�ve learned or benefited from, but the core values.�
05:35
All right, so let�s just kind of learn. We will, in fact, learn. We�re going to learn what not to do.
05:42
We are going to learn pragmatism is a bad master, and we are going to learn, probably as we see what happens to the
05:51
Redeemer campuses, the inevitable consequences to this type of theology.
05:58
Remember, what we�re talking about here is, when people throw things out on the Internet, you can critique them.
06:04
We don�t have to do Matthew 18, or I�ve got to call them, or anything like that.
06:10
You can call them if you want. It wasn�t that long ago that I called
06:16
Mark Devern. We had a good 30 -minute conversation about some of the issues around T4G, as far as I saw them.
06:22
You can call people if you want, but here I�m critiquing an article of a public figure.
06:30
That�s what I�m doing, and it�s just awful. It is just, I don�t know how people can do this.
06:37
If you look at what God requires of a steward, what does He require in 1 Corinthians? Let that steward be found, what?
06:44
Faithful. As a matter of fact, I�m going to read this, because otherwise I�m going to get off on such a rant, you won�t be edified in any way, shape, or form, not just because of my ranting, but because how awful this article is.
06:56
1 Corinthians 4. What Paul is after, and aren�t you thankful?
07:04
He�s not after success or numbers or does it work? Now, there�s pragmatism in everybody�s life.
07:12
I can�t say we have to be apragmatic. In terms of ministry, philosophy, theology, we don�t go based on what works.
07:21
This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
07:30
Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. That�s what we�re after.
07:37
But with me, it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court.
07:43
In fact, I do not even judge myself, for I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted.
07:51
It is the Lord who judges me, therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness, and will disclose the purposes of the heart.
08:02
Then each one will receive his commendation from the Lord, 1 Corinthians 4 verses 1 -5.
08:13
Back here to Kelly, I was going to say Kelly Keller, Kathy Keller, excuse me,
08:19
I know Kelly Keller. I hope she�s doing well. The chief value, the prime directive is, �Church as usual will not work.�
08:33
Okay, 30 years of work, this is the prime directive, �Church as usual will not work.�
08:38
And you�re going to see as I go through this, forget tradition, I mean in a good sense, forget what�s gone before us, forget faithful preaching that it doesn�t change a city, it changes the hearts of the people who are listening.
08:55
Forget all of that. The prime directive, if you had to boil everything down, and when you print things, you know, normally
09:01
I would assume somebody had to edit this or look at it, and that just makes them more culpable, in my opinion.
09:10
The chief value, prime directive, what does Mrs. Keller say? That was the very first thing that we determined before we even moved here.
09:19
We couldn�t just import the rural or suburban template from our previous church in Hopewell, Virginia, even if it had been successful in its time and place.
09:28
How would you define success, by the way, Kathy? In fact, nothing in italics, she says, could be done simply because it had been successful somewhere else or because churches had always done it that way, like preach, pray,
09:42
Lord Supper. Did it fit New York? We had to ask that question. Would people understand it?
09:49
Would it get in the way of non -Christians hearing the gospel? Friends, this is just so blatant.
09:57
This is the kind of stuff you might believe, but you don�t want anybody to know you do it and believe it.
10:03
But this is just blatant for the world. You know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of theologians that aren�t so good, and they start building a platform, and they are told by their publicists, �Don�t say the weird views that you�ve got about God and theology and Scripture until you get 50 ,000
10:23
Twitter followers, and then after that, say what you want because it doesn�t matter. You�re already somebody.�
10:29
And I don�t know if this is true or not, but it seems to me that you get so big, now you can kind of finally tell people, �This is really what we did.
10:35
This is really how we go about it.� Did it fit New York? Would it get in the way of non -Christians hearing the gospel?
10:49
These are the questions we ask of every single choice, stating back even with the naming of Redeemer.
10:56
I don�t know if you think this article can get worse or not, but there�s always room for deprovement when it comes to pragmatics.
11:08
When we began meeting with our steering committee in the winter of 1989, Tim and I announced one Sunday that we had given some thought to the name of this new church and decided it would be called
11:17
Christ the King. Now, what do you think of that name, Christ the King? Christ the
11:23
Prophet? Christ the Priest? I�m in Hebrews, Christ the Priest, that�d be a good name. Christ the
11:32
Prophet, Priest, and King? That�d be a good name. Christ Church? Yeah, that�s his name for the church, it�s his church.
11:42
Christ the King, do you think they liked it? Well, obviously they didn�t like it that much because they named the church
11:48
Redeemer, Christ the King. Now, here�s what Kathy Keller has to say, �A former missionary who had moved to New York to be part of the church said, �Oh no, that�s terrible.
12:00
That sounds so triumphalist. You need something more like Redeemer.� She�d actually been part of Redeemer Church in Winston -Salem and argued that that name had more of a sense of being a helper, pulling you out of a pit or doing something that�s positive for people.
12:19
We considered the prime directive. What�s the prime directive for Tim Keller? Church as usual will not work.
12:24
And we said, �Yep, you�re right ,� even though he had already printed and distributed material with the name Christ the
12:29
King. For years we got asked about Christ the King Church in New York City from people who had heard about it, but that name was a mistake, so we changed it.
12:40
Really? I mean, does this deserve a �henno�? �Henno.�
12:47
For those of you who don�t know what �henno� means, that�s for me to know and you to find out.
12:53
That�s what Grandma used to say when she answered the phone. Instead of �hello ,� she said �henno.�
12:58
And now when I want to say theologically to someone �hello ,� I say �henno.�
13:05
I think we might be sponsoring some of the cars in the Indy 500. WD -40,
13:14
SDP, �henno.� The prime directive.
13:21
You know what? Pick a name like helper, transcendent names, let�s get rid of those like king, they�re too triumphant.
13:30
I mean, I was reading the other day, Revelation 19, you know, that triumphalism, you know,
13:42
Jesus coming back, all that kind of jazz. �Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse.�
13:49
Brace yourself, snowflakes, brace yourself. This is triumphalism. �The one sitting on it is called faithful and true, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
14:01
His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.�
14:09
Is that positive for people? Does that fit the prime directive? Church as usual will not work.
14:17
Got to have something like helper pulling out of a pit, doing something positive for people. �He�s clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is the word of God.
14:33
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
14:38
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.
14:48
He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh, he has a name written, helper.�
15:03
Of course, he�s a helper but here we have triumphal entry. Forget the triumphal entry with Palm Sunday, Palm Monday, depending on your theological views.
15:13
This is the real triumphant entry, �King of kings and Lord of lords.�
15:21
I�m still shocked that she wrote this. I would never write this, even if I did it and believed it.
15:29
Why? Because it�s so revealing. It�s so man -centered. Okay, human -centered.
15:35
Does that make people feel better? The prime directive of ministry, �Church as usual will not work.�
15:43
Is this not in the same vein as Willow Creek, as in Saddleback, as in how do we talk to people who are unbelievers?
15:54
And you know, you have to say it now, but we shouldn�t even have to say it. It goes without saying. I�m not going to purposely, overtly offend unbelievers out and about in the community, but they are going to be offended.
16:13
It�s like people now with different coalitions and such with the gospel and the gospel they promote. Actually people love because it�s so woke.
16:22
The world�s not offended because they�re happy because now they�re saying a lot of things that the world is saying.
16:28
I don�t choose anything based on how unbelievers will like it or not like it.
16:34
I mean, maybe you need, you know, licenses and permits for building and you make those in such a way that the building inspector likes it.
16:48
But in terms of what we do or say or sing, I don�t even say on Easter, Resurrection Sunday or Christmas or our concerts, �Well, will this make the unbelievers happy signs,
17:24
I know what you want. Those two things or anything in between, but I�m going to do what
17:31
Paul did, and that is I�m going to give you Christ Jesus as a gift, as a sign. even the Chi there, the crucified one.
17:37
The Messiah, yeah, the Messiah who's crucified, that's the one I'm going to present to you. It is a stumbling block.
17:44
It is crazy. It is moronic. And I'm talking about the way people perceive the cross, and I'm also talking about, in my opinion, this prime directive, church as usual will not work.
17:57
Whoever said anything about working anyway never works.
18:05
I mean, Isaiah, I wonder if he had that kind of philosophy. Jeremiah, well,
18:13
I guess a lot of people came out to see John the Baptist, but it didn't work out, quote unquote, too well for him in the end, did it?
18:21
Did it work? Prime directive, church as usual will not work. Since Jesus is building the church, why am
18:28
I in competition with Him? I don't even care about any of that. I have things
18:34
I need to faithfully discharge, and quite honestly, I have a hard enough time doing those things, let alone thinking about other things like prime directive.
18:44
And even that, I personally think that's a stupid name, the prime directive.
18:50
Do I like Star Trek? Yes. Do I, you know, think about Vulcan mind melds and the episode called
19:00
Mirror, Mirror? And I never liked the Tribbles one. That was dumb, Trouble with Tribbles. But I'm not going to say this is the prime directive for church.
19:12
How about faithfulness? Prime directive, pastor, preach the Word. You know, reading 1
19:18
Timothy and 2 Timothy and Titus, pastoral epistles, even seeing how the church was started in the book of Acts.
19:28
Okay, prime directive. Really? I'm just still so shocked that she wrote this and then published it.
19:40
This is behind the scenes. You know, if you want to read the book on theological issues with Tim Keller, engaging with Keller or engaging
19:48
Keller, a lot of Presbyterians wrote a chapter on his theistic evolution, his view of the
19:54
Trinity where it's divine dancing, his view of hell as C .S.
20:01
Lewisian, his view of sin as making good things ultimate, Kierkegaardian, his view of social issues and social justice.
20:10
There's a chapter on each one of those, if you must. Oh, theistic evolution, chapter one of Genesis is poetry.
20:19
I never liked that song. I'm a poetry man. Who sang that? Some type of folk singer back in the old day.
20:25
Noam Chomsky. Did I tell you I saw Noam Chomsky? I saw him at University of Nebraska.
20:35
Oh, I think he's now a commentator on Fox News. The chief value, the prime directive is church as usual will not work.
20:45
So, you know, Christ the King, that name, unbelievers won't like it. Well, of course they won't like it.
20:53
We will not have this man reign over us. Even a cursory reading of Psalm 2 should not make us be concerned about this at all.
21:05
Nations don't like Jesus. Nations rage. Nations want the fetters of God unchained.
21:15
Is that unfurled? Is that for sales only, unfurling, unfettering?
21:23
The prime directive, church as usual will not work.
21:31
Yep, you're right. Well, how about let's just...why
21:37
would they even settle then for Redeemer? That's beyond my purview. That's beyond my pay grade.
21:44
Why then say Redeemer? That means somehow you might need to be redeemed. That means you're...what's
21:53
the opposite of redeemed? Slave to sin? Slave to the world system?
22:03
Captured and captivated by Satan? Adam affected you with his fall?
22:11
Oh, this Redeemer talk, come on. Can't we find something better?
22:18
I think maybe helper might be better. Comforter, church. Obviously, the
22:24
Holy Spirit, He's called Comforter. Amen? I'm glad for that. I need comfort.
22:31
But why stop with Redeemer if you're thinking about a positive helper pulling out of a pit or doing something positive for people?
22:40
The helper church. Help. Help. This is...I
22:47
know. Help. This would have been a good show to have on video live feed. Help.
22:54
Comfort. Comforter church. You could have nice comfortable seating, and you could say, church as usual will not work.
23:02
So, hard pews will not work. Songs will not work. Little numbers put up there for the hymns or what we're singing will not work.
23:11
Bad coffee will not work. Crazy.
23:19
Crazy. Henno crazy. How about henno for the name of a church? Henno. Henno. You're going to pick a name of a church.
23:30
And of course, I don't like the names of churches that are Journey, Verve, Vigor, Vex, Reality.
23:50
If your church is named Reality, you need a new church name, something more positive. Comfort. Comfort.
24:04
I saw this article. I'm not going to do number two until tomorrow, which is in 10 minutes in my time.
24:11
I just was really shocked. I was shocked that this was actually put out. Who has the nerves to do this?
24:18
I guess maybe if you've got 50 ,000 Twitter followers. I don't know. I didn't look up how many she has.
24:25
But this is from Mrs. Keller. What's the prime directive for ministry?
24:30
Church as usual will not work. Matter of fact, I didn't even look down to read that because it's already imprinted on my brain.
24:37
Church as usual will not work. Church as usual will not work. Shall we have ushers?
24:43
Church as usual will not work. Shall we have a communion being served? Church as usual will not work.
24:50
Shall we have an offering? Church as usual will not work. Huh. How did that...what
24:56
happened with that one? Church as usual will not work. Tithes and offerings?
25:02
Church as usual will work for food. Part two next time.
25:08
Mike Abendroth, this is No Compromise Radio. The prime directive has nothing to do with what was discussed in this article.
25:31
Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.
25:38
You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.