Should You Love The Church? - Church Discipline (part 2)

Father in heaven, we're thankful to be here this morning. I even am coming on the heels of Thanksgiving. Think of all the things that we had to be thankful for. Father, I just pray that these things these things that we count uh the material the physical things.

That we would uh. In our minds that they would pale In comparison to the riches that we have in christ. Jesus. Lord, I pray for our time this morning that you would bless it as we look to your word what you've said about our.

About the church your church and father how we out of view it um. How we out of view ourselves fitting into it lord. I just pray that you bless this time in christ's name. Amen. Well Ron d filippo gave me this and I and I thought this was a good way to start the class here today.

A Countercultural View of the Church

Fight that sunday morning hangover with spirituality. This is from the metro paper here talks about interviewing oprah and Uh here here she says the author says sitting next to oprah for this hour-long interview.

I was able to understand the magnitude of her mission. I experienced firsthand how lit up she becomes when she's talking about spirituality and god. Oprah is on a mat on a mission to wake up the masses to their inner strength and power.

Then she concludes the article this way you can create your own super soul sunday by spending time in stillness. Taking time for stillness allows you to tap into your soul. Turn off your phone and linger just a little bit longer in your bed.

Drink your morning tea and tune into yourself rather than jumping into the next task. Later have some friends over to watch the episode of oprah and discuss it. Isn't that wonderful? Today's religion is what?

It's all about yourself. Worship yourself, you know what here's the problem. You don't spend enough time tapping into your soul. Oh, I think you spend plenty of time tapping into your soul. That's part of the problem.

But the church is you know, here's a unique thought, you know, typically what do we think about when we think of? The church. In other words if i'm if i'm well, let's step back a second. Let's say you're outside of the church.

You're just a regular pagan. What do you think of as the church? What's that the building. Okay. But more than that. What about the people who go to a church? Hypocrites. What else? Fanatics. Let's put it this way.

Would you if we were gonna frame it this way? Modern old-fashioned. Which one? Traditional or forward thinking. And here's the truth though. What is the church? Actually the church is cultural or Countercultural.

We are countercultural. We're not. I don't even like to think of it as being traditional old-fashioned any of those things because that's really not the case. The case is we are. Or the truth is we are the called out ones those who are called to live according to God's standards not the world's standards.

We're not called to live. You know the world according to oprah here where we just the biggest problem in america. Is we just need to take more time to tap into our own souls wrong wrong wrong. We began talking about Again, another countercultural principle.

Matthew 18 and the Goal of Church Discipline

We've been talking about the the principles that you ought to be looking for in a church. We didn't get very far last time talking about church discipline seem to Bring out some questions and I have now and I found this i'm going to have maybe tracy tidy this up because it came out all kind of Goofy looking because I just cut and pasted it from the internet.

But how about this? I actually have. And if you were closer, you could see it a flow chart dealing with uh church discipline. Which I thought was a pretty it actually is pretty good now. I could make a really bad flow chart about church discipline.

But this is a good one. So, I mean we'll hand that out next week and that'll give out some even more questions. But let's go to matthew 18 just to kind of remind us where we are verses 15 to 17 you know what's interesting is I I did a google search because I thought i'd be really clever.

It's a problem with me. I try to be clever. And I thought i'd find a church that said, you know boldly we don't practice church discipline. We think church discipline is terrible. And when I googled it All that came up were all the churches all the reasons that you should do church discipline so I thought well I don't know what that says about google search engine but or maybe just churches don't want to advertise the fact that they don't care about sin or holiness or anything else, but Um, I guess I could find it like in a uu church or something like that.

But anyway, matthew 18 verses 15 to 17 and i'll read that. And if your brother sins go. And reprove him in private. If he listens to you you have won your brother but if he does not listen to you take One or two more with you so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.

And if he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church. Let him be to you as a gentile and a tax gatherer and by the way. This church discipline flow chart here Lays out basically the steps of church discipline.

And at any point that the person repents that you're going to talk to. It has a little box over here on the side. It says you have served your brother and won him. That's the whole point. You know people talk about uh, you know church discipline is judgmental.

It's demeaning. It's all these things. Well, it's really for the good of the person we're not out to. We're not out to kind of get them. It's the whole the whole idea is to get them to repent to get them to change their mind to get them to stop sinning.

So Uh, we talked about last week people want to know, you know. What are a list of sins that we would church discipline for which I thought I thought that was kind of interesting you know I I didn't know if maybe that was so that you could know what sins to avoid you know.

Um, these are the church approved sins. I have pastoral authority to sin in this area. Well, I mean, what do you think about that? I mean, it's kind of funny, but what why would we think that there are?

Some sins that maybe church discipline shouldn't be exercised for Bruce. Sexual immorality is the one that's most common. Not that it's super common, but it's caught the most common. And and let's just kind of Take that just a a little further.

Why do you suppose that? Sexual sin is so frequently the one that is not repented of Bruce, it's just me and bruce. It's strong. It's a strong bondage. Yes, and it's it and it is difficult to escape from and I think.

You know the other side of it is let's put it this way if you're writing Checks and they're bouncing constantly at the bank and somebody comes to you and says, you know what you need to stop bouncing checks.

There's no emotional attachment there right but if you're in caught up in infidelity there is. That somewhat of an emotional attachment there's something that is Uh that is drawing you back to that again and again, and I think it is.

Uh, like bruce was saying, you know a sin that just tends to ensnare to enslave. Um, were there any other thoughts about last week some of the things that we talked about or some of the Sins that I mean are there sins that you want to know if we would is there any confession that needs to go on here?

No, i'm kidding any. Uh, because it just seemed like there were a lot of questions. Um, but we talked about. You know, what what are some of the objections to? A church discipline um, and I think you know, the bottom line is I I don't know if you remember this there was a church in florida that.

Where a woman was eventually disciplined out of the church and she sued the church. You know, and what was her objection? Anybody remember that case at all? Her objection was that her name was defamed.

She was embarrassed. You know, it's kind of embarrassing to have your your name read out from the pulpit, right? To have the pastor say, you know what everybody needs to go after this person. What do you think about that idea?

You know, we don't exercise church discipline because it's embarrassing. We don't want anybody to feel ashamed. You should have thought of that before you said or when else you should you have thought about it?

Yeah, you've had a couple warnings already the first person came to you and you said yeah. Yeah, then he or she went got one or two witnesses came back to you and you said yeah. And now you're going to get mad because they're following the precepts of the bible they've told you.

They said look you need to repent or you know. So you've hardened your heart and now you're going to get mad because your name got read bruce but. Well, that's true, right? I mean she was on the tv and everything else but.

But think about what that says. Who takes her side right away. The world the media why because they just go look at those fundamentalist Judgmental christians, how dare they defame this poor woman? All she did was you know, whatever.

All she did was what everybody else would do. What are they making a big deal out of it and that's why I say it's countercultural. It goes against the grain. If we think about the idea of the church being the called out ones.

Were to be held to a different standard. We should expect that. A person who claims to be a christian Should actually want To be held to a different standard. And you know again, I think the way it was portrayed was it was this woman against the church, but what's the truth?

She didn't sin against the church she sinned against. Against god against the lord of the church. So it's just it's it's wrong from all that. So people don't like it because it's embarrassing. How about this one, you know, well church discipline isn't very loving.

We talked about that last week. What about that idea? Charlie. Okay, it's loving for the rest of the faithful sheep in the church. Why. Yeah, peggy says it's loving for that person. Right the one who's in sin because you want to bring that to their attention you want them to repent.

But why is it loving for the church as a whole? Exactly karma says, you know, you you see the example and you you want to know that. I mean, it's like you're. To use a uh an example that we're all familiar with.

You know if you have children if you've ever had children. If the first one gets away with something and then the second one does it and you you know. Take the second child out for discipline. What are what are what is he or she going to say?

Yeah, well they get to do it, you know. They don't understand. My brother used to say that all the time steve used to charlie. Yeah, it's loving to get a corrupting influence out of the church a little leaven.

I mean, you know, it's like, uh, I once my my wife obviously is a very good cook and uh, she she made uh. It's this no-bake cheesecake that I really like and this was when we were in california. And you know I was up.

I don't know watching sports or doing something stupid or I don't even know if I was. I don't remember exactly when this was all I remember is what happened next. Because there was one piece of cheesecake Left in the refrigerator just one little piece.

And I thought well that's been there for a while. I'm sure nobody's gonna miss it. So I started eating it and then I realized it had been there a little bit too long. Because I had taken about I don't know seven or eight bites and all of a sudden I came across a little bit of mold.

It was just a little bit of mold. I spent the rest of the night so sick and I was downstairs. Everybody's sleeping upstairs and I go I could die down here from dehydration. Nobody's ever gonna know. I didn't have the strength to get back up and then I thought wait a minute.

I think we have some kind of Hydrating fluid in there. So once all that all the nonsense stopped, you know, I had a little bit of that and I I managed to hang on till the morning. So. But just a little bit.

I mean, that's how it is, right? We think well that's not that big of a deal or it is that big of a deal. Because it's it's like gangrene. It's like mold. It's an infection and it needs to be excised.

It needs to be cut out. And it notice it's not the person that needs to get cut out. It is what? The sin. It's the sin. So when we say about you know, it's not loving it's embarrassing. Ultimately, we every church should ask themselves this question.

Who is it that we're most concerned about offending it should be God. Should be christ, let's just open to ephesians 5 for a moment. I've just been thinking about this and I mean there's so much That could be said just even thinking about ephesians 4 you know.

Just if we if you were going to summarize Ephesians 4 what would you say about it? Especially, you know the second half of it. He he just talks about. Uh, you know if you used to steal then don't steal anymore if you used to do this don't do it anymore.

You know, it's just talking about a transformed life. It's talking about the the changes that have taken place. We come to ephesians chapter 5. Talks a bit again about how we should live and all this and I just love you know I've mentioned this before but I love ephesians 5 because Um I I love to come to the part where you know wives should submit and everything to their husbands.

I love to say that in a wedding and just kind of watch all the women's faces you know knowing that there are a lot of unbelievers out there and just watch them go, you know, like Wait till this is over pal.

We're gonna you know. Knock you under the ground, but then I get to this part. Ephesians 5 25 Husbands, love your wives as christ loved the church and gave himself up for her and I say ladies. You know what if your husband?

Is willing to lay down his life metaphorically speaking or an actual fact for you. It's a lot easier to submit yourself to him. But look at the next part that he might sanctify her having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.

So that with the purpose of he might present the church to himself in splendor. Without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy and without blemish. Now, what does that imply about? The church apart from the work of christ.

That she would have spots and blemishes. He lays down his life gives us the word and all that. So what so that the church won't have Spot or blemish. That's the whole point. So when we talk about you know, it's not that big of a deal or what are they doing that for?

It's because our view of the church is wrong. Christ himself is sanctifying the church. He wants a bride without spot or blemish or any such thing. Now let's talk again. About some of this is going to be recapped.

Some of this is going to be new. I I stole this from Bill zimmer used to be an elder at grace community church the purposes of church discipline. And he writes purposes purposes of church discipline slash restoration because that's the goal, right?

And his first purpose is to glorify god by obedience to his instructions. Any church that says well, you know, matthew 18 is all well and good but Whatever the butt is Says I don't. We don't hear care about glorifying god by obeying him.

So that would be number one. We just talked about maintaining the purity of the church. And how about this one? To vindicate the integrity and honor of christ in his religion by exhibiting fidelity to his principles.

What does it say? Like in the case in florida, what does it say to the world? Well, they think it's horrible but if they understood the purpose is not to embarrass the woman. But to obey christ to obey his word.

It says something it should say something to the world about how serious the church is about what? About holiness. About holiness. This is a place where people go because they want to honor the lord. They want to obey his principles.

What would it say, you know, what does it say to the church where you just go. Uh, this is a place where you can go and we just take you as you are. We don't expect you to change at all. And you know what?

If couples you know somehow they they get divorced and Uh all that we don't care and you you know. You are now married to him and he's married to you and da da da, you know. And everybody just kind of switches spouses.

We don't really care. That's fine we don't really care what's going on with regard to whether you pay your bills and Any of these kind of things we just don't care. We don't care about the reputation of the people in the community.

We don't care. Well, what does that say about the church. This is a place where god's word is not honored and the people are not serious about sin and they have. They're just like the world. And we don't want to do that but then he notes that the purpose of church discipline is to Reclaim offenders and we talked a little bit about that in matthew 18, but let's look at first corinthians 5.

Reclaiming Offenders and Restoring the Sinning Brother

First corinthians 5. And who would read. I want to make sure I get the right verses here versus. Okay, let's read verses 3 to 5 first corinthians 5. Verses 3 to 5 will. Okay. Now this man was the one who was Carrying on a relationship with his stepmother.

And paul Says there he says, you know. Just love him. Just accept him as he is. No. You are to deliver this man to satan kick him out of the church. Why? Ultimately for the salvation of the spirit you want him to be exposed to the world.

He doesn't belong in the assembly of the church. He doesn't belong in the protection of the church. He belongs out there in the cold cruel world. With the hope that of course he will be reclaimed that he will repent.

Let's look at galatians 6. And verses. I'm, not sure if we need more than just verse 1. So i'll just read that galatians chapter 6. Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression. You who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness keep watch On yourself lest you too be tempted.

I'll read verse 2 as well. Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of christ. Again notice what the goal is. Somebody's ensnared in sin. The goal is not to shame them the goal is not to ridicule them.

To be mean to them. The goal is to restore them. It's what we always want to do. Now there's another purpose and we've already mentioned that is to deter others from sin. In first timothy chapter 5 when it talks about How to confront elders who are in sin.

And it concludes with this that you know if they won't repent ultimately then what do you do you? Announce it to the congregation. Why? And it says this so that those who continue in sin Rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest may also be fearful of sinning.

What should be when you recognize because we all do this we all recognize that we sin and what should be our first response repentance confessing confession to god right and then turning away from it.

If that doesn't happen. If in your own mind you commit a sin and you just and the alarm doesn't go off. What does that tell you? What should it tell you? You may not be saved. Is that shocking? You may not be saved.

I just did something that's absolutely horrible and I feel good about it. Or i'm completely immune to any sense of guilt about it. You've seared your conscience somehow or another. And maybe it's you know lack of time in the word lack of fellowship with the saints.

I mean, you know here just think about this. I mean I I Have a great affinity for uh southern people people from the south. But you know, there's this concept that everybody down there is a christian.

And so what what is the focus, you know friday night? You gamble saturday night you drink and you have a hangover on sunday morning and you drag yourself into church and you're a christian. Why. Because they've habitually taught themselves that all that really matters Is to go on sunday morning and sing amazing grace and jesus loves me this I know.

And then the rest of the week is yours to do whatever you want. With all apologies to true believers in the south, but there's you know, I mean the difference between the Mindset of most people here in new england and most people in the south is in the south.

Everybody presumes they're a christian in the north. Everybody, you know mocks the idea of christianity, but in the south they just think it's a it's a. You know, it's a soft christianity. It's a nice christianity.

But those who sin rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest may also be fearful of sinning. Okay says again the the goal. Well, this is me. The goal is to have a pure church a church in which sin is not welcome especially in leadership um now.

Let's think about this for a minute. You know people say well. Do we have to get up there and name the person's name again just think about what's gone on before that happens. They've been confronted not once but twice.

And what we do here is after even after they've been confronted twice um. Then we'll go and talk to them the elders will go talk to them and then we'll send them a letter. We do everything we can to keep their name from Coming up before the church.

So what about naming names? What about that? Is that terrible? Paul didn't seem to have a problem with it right. Or how do you know how to who to go after if you don't stand up there and say, you know?

I regret to tell you that we have to bring the name of so-and-so before you this morning. And we have to name the sin why so that you both know who the person is what they've done so that you can go Talk to them about it.

The idea is you know, it's like uh. Well, I guess it's it's pretty accurate to use this in a law enforcement sense uh. You'll have situations where? Uh one Police officer is dispatched to a call and he can handle it problem solved.

Sometimes he can't handle it. I mean, I remember one time we uh, we went to A 415 e call which is a loud party call. And we knock on the door and the door opened and I went in there with my uh companion male five four 135 pounds.

We went in there and uh. And this guy comes up to us and he was obviously drunk. And he was obviously huge. I mean, he was just muscular and everything and he says You guys can't come in here and then.

Kind of stereotypical cop way. I said, well, I think we just did well, anyway, then I think he May have pushed me. Whatever the uh situation was and we my partner and I got into a wrestling match. Well, I should say With this guy, I I would say I got into a wrestling match with this guy.

My partner got an e-ticket ride. He was you know. All over the place. But we eventually got this guy handcuffed. And And then we were we were taking him outside. And he was cooperative finally. And now his friends decide that they're going to take him away from us well.

Which is which is the technical term for that is lynching lynching isn't what it's meant out to be that that's. There's a legal term for it. That's lynching is taking a prisoner out of the custody of law enforcement so his friends were going to try to do that and i'm like this is just you know, and this is back in the day where Ancient days where we didn't have a radio, you know like this we had to get back to our car.

So we're like, you know doing this little dance to kind of get back to the car and then we get back there. And our backup unit right around the corner. They were uh, i'll just call it what it is. They were lazy.

They didn't they didn't want to respond. So they were just kind of hanging out waiting for us to clear the call. So then, you know, I call for backup because these guys are trying to you know I mean we're going to wind up shooting somebody or whatever, you know.

And so then they come screaming up the street and these guys the other guys who are trying to lynch them take off and my point here is Sometimes one person can handle it. Sometimes two people can handle it and then sometimes you have to call for backup and that's what this is this is essentially if the pastor gets up in the pulpit and says You know, we regret to inform you we have to tell you about this and who it is.

They're calling the posse. It's posse comitatus every one of you. Is law enforcement essentially? Not none of this says that you need to go beat them up or go arrest them or go throw the cuffs on them.

But you need to go and confront them. Everybody's involved. That's what it means when you become a member of a church. You are essentially raising your hand and saying, you know, okay if called upon i'm going to discharge that duty.

Church membership is a serious thing. I mean it if I said to you, you know, okay. Well, it may come down to giving you guys guns and badges. You'd go. Whoa. Whoa, wait a minute. That's pretty serious business.

Well, it is serious business. We don't give you guns and badges. All you have is the bible the holy spirit. And an obligation your brother or sister to go to them. Is it fun? No. No, but it's your responsibility bruce.

Okay, well. Yeah, I mean I I suppose it depends under what? The the situation was that they left the church, you know, if you go to One of the elders if you come to one of the elders and we say yeah, we know about that.

You know. And maybe we won't say anything further. Maybe we don't agree with why they left the church, but it wasn't a matter where we felt like We can or we should pursue it um. So then that's that I mean there there have been some there have been some pretty incredible leavings um I mean like the one where we just uh.

You know somebody was an officer the church just mailed in their keys. Yeah, we're done. You know, what do you do? I don't know what the sin is other than. You sure left stupidly, you know if leaving the church stupidly if I had a scripture for that Boy we'd have a lot of church discipline um.

So so what do you do? Was there go ahead charlie so. So what do you do? Well, I think I think it'd be fine to talk to the person if you wanted to but it probably better to just come to One of the elders and say did you know so-and-so left the church?

Um. So charlie. Well, I think there's a lot of truth to that and I mean I've been sort of thinking about that recently. Anyway, you know as we see the number of people on food stamps and everything else go up, you know the number of uh Bursts outside of wedlock.

I think you know and I want to say in the african-american community. It's 70 among latinos. It's 60 among Whites now it's like 35 40 or whatever, but you just think you know 50 years ago It was a shame You know to do these kind of things and now it's just like oh, that's fine.

There's a government program to take care of that. You know, that's that's no problem. And that's the way it is, right? There's no shame in anything. There's no shame in Anything where there used to be shame associated with it.

There's no shame in not working. There's no shame and you know being a 30 year old who says, uh, they can't provide for Whatever their particular need is, you know, I mean whatever it is. Uh that the government owes you let's see not just your education through uh High school, but they owe you a college education.

They owe you I mean if you listen to both candidates in the last presidential debate, you know. Basically the government needs to create a at least an environment where you can get a good job the government the government the government.

The government the government, you know, the government is the solution for everything so. What you say is correct because if we had a system where we didn't have so much of a government safety net. Then the most logical place to go would be to the church.

Well if you want to take Sin Out of the equation if you want to take shame out of the equation. If you want to make it a completely no-fault society, then what do you do? You have to find that church somewhere else and so maybe the church is the state.

Separation of church and state except for when the state becomes the church. Yes. Right. And and and so if there's no there's no fiscal Penalty to you anymore. There's no social stigma attached to being kicked out of the church.

Uh, because you can just find some other so-called church that will accept you. Um, yeah, so I mean everything is everything is definitely changed. I mean, you know should uh Should people be permanently branded if they send no and again the goal is not to paint a scarlet letter on somebody you know, whether it's the a of adultery or the you know W for won't work or what?

You know, whatever it is. The answer is no. That's not the goal. The goal is To restore them. The goal is to get them to understand that they are in sin. Uh and pray that the spirit would bring that to their mind, but yeah, there's definitely been a shift I mean a massive shift since the first second third century, but even in the last You know couple of hundred years.

There's been a big change and I mean if you want to see the future Of the american church, I think you can just look over in europe and as the state grows the church Diminishes in importance socially and for some people that's all church is it's just a social place so.

Church Leadership, Accountability, and Private Reproof

Yeah, I think that's right other questions. Yeah true great point jenny, I mean they're Generally speaking especially since most of the cases are You know adultery for church discipline. There's there's somebody else involved in that and you know, they're still they're the ones who are uh hurting they're the ones who are um Really needing the church body to come alongside and I mean that's a difficult time and just imagine being in a church Um where you thought these things were going to be addressed and then they don't get addressed.

You know your spouse is unfaithful to you. They leave you or whatever and you say and you go to the church and they go well, you know. That's kind of a tough hill to go up. I don't think we want to do that.

Just think of how everybody will view that. Well, what what do you think about the church? But even if the church does the right thing, it's still hard. It's hard. I mean it's it was a hard situation to begin with but yeah, the church Definitely needs to rally around the people that have been sinned against that's that's a good point um to just carry this out about Church leadership.

We have a few minutes here. If we look at first timothy chapter five again Verses 19 and 20 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest may Also may be fearful of sinning when we think about elders.

Um. What why do you suppose that that this is even in there? You know, is this a different standard really for? church leadership. What doesn't it say here? It doesn't say that you can't you know. If you know of an elder in sin, you can't go to them and confront them.

It doesn't say that. Right. This is an instruction to the church about not taking an accusation Against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. It's the same process. It's just saying that if some if one person comes forward don't take it on that basis.

So that person needs to this is what we do we say, you know, if you have something against Me because you never have anything against the other elders. If you have something against me, you need to come to me and deal with it.

And if i'm Unreceptive to that if you don't think things are resolved then you can Bring one of the other elders involved or get somebody else involved in it, but you ought to come to me first. Why do you suppose that that's important?

Well, it's true right what did jesus say go and reprove them in private. And this is the same principle here. You need to go to them first. Why because otherwise what do you do? You're out in the hallway during sunday school saying, you know that pastor steve you're.

You're gossiping and you're really undermining the the leadership and that's not that's not ever the right thing to do. It's not the right thing to do in light of matthew 18. It's not the right thing to do in light of first timothy chapter 5.

So I think it's basically the same standard. But again, it illustrates the need for godly leadership. How how is godly leadership illustrated by this passage here because if you go to them. And then they make it right with you then.