Pastor vs. A Millennial / New Age Girl

Love, Positivity, and the Question of Moral Obligation

What were you talking about?

She's trying to promote love and positivity.

We're not promoting love and positivity. We are love and positivity. So, you know, everybody is. Everybody has that potential to live and operate on that level.

So, uh, I like that. I like your hat, by the way. So, uh, love is dope.

Right on.

Why should we love each other? Why do you think?

Why should we love each other?

Yeah.

Because there's a lot of people that believe we should hurt each other. Why would they be wrong?

The world's a lot better when we operate on that heart-space level. We find more understanding and meaning and depth in life. When you are grateful for everyone, when you're grateful for people, when you need to operate on that level, you change your entire life.

So, to live in a positive way, to have a positive lifestyle, like, doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean you have to be religious. It doesn't mean that you have to believe in crystals or, like, do anything.

It really is just about, like, how you think about your day, how you treat others, and essentially living on that level that is, you know, overcoming hatred.

Yeah, that's good.

Like, what would Jesus do? Like, what would love do?

You know?

Yeah.

Every moment.

I like that.

We actually have bracelets that say that.

That's good.

What do you, uh, so, like, how would you talk to the person that, say, he believes in, he believes that we came here through unguided, purposeless events. He believes that all we are are descendants of fish, evolution.

And he believes that the virtue is hurting other people. How would you argue with him?

I wouldn't argue with him. I would, like, say it mad. Be like, well, man, like, I hope you have a great day. Like, I really hope that nobody hurts you.

So, what would you do if you saw a guy hurting somebody on the street? Would you just kind of walk around it? He wouldn't get involved?

He probably wouldn't.

Doesn't love demand, if you love a person, that you do something to save them?

I'm also, like, not trying to put myself in harm's way.

You know? Oh, I see.

Like, if they're, like, fighting on the street, like, I'm not going to get in the middle of this, like, 130-pound girl and be like, yo, like, you know?

Like, I'm going to be like.

So, you would kind of watch until the fallout, and then you would do something afterwards?

I mean, it really depends. Like, even if I know the person or whatever, like, I don't know. I, like, I'm not really.

Yeah. You know?

Obviously, there's something going on. I'm not, like, the middle person. I don't need to tell people what to do. Like, if they want to have their brawl, like, go for it, dude.

What if a guy walked into your house and he started taking stuff? Would you say anything to him?

I'd be like, dude, get out of my house. Like, my stuff.

What if he said, nah?

Love is, like, then I'd be like, I'm calling the police.

Like, get out of my house. What if he said, I reject the notion of love? Because I agree with you.

Love isn't, like, letting anybody do whatever the heck they want to you. You have to have a level of respect. You have to have self-love to even, like, love other people. So, like, for me to create boundaries for my own personal safety and to, like, keep myself safe, like, then I'm able to give other people that safe, sound love instead of, like, leeching off other people, taking their stuff because they love me or whatever.

Relativism, Absolutes, and the Limits of Self-Definition

No, I actually, I like what you're saying because I believe that God is love. I believe all of us are in the image of God. I'm just, I'm curious because I agree with your message of love. I just, I wonder, how do you, how do you go about convincing somebody that love...

I'm not here to convince anybody. I'm not here to change anybody. I'm just here to, like, help other people. Like, to have that available if they want to, if they're open to receiving it. But you can't shove anything down anybody's throat, especially love and kindness.

Like, if somebody doesn't want kindness, then, like, they're not going to accept it. So, what's the point of me putting all of my energy and my effort into somebody that doesn't want to hear what I have to say?

Yeah.

So, I'm going to go and I'm going to give it to people that want it, that want to rejoice with me, that want to spread the message of love. Like, that's, you know...

What if there was a... I like what you're saying. What if there was, like, a large society that grew up next to our society of love, and it got bigger than us, and they didn't believe what we believed about love.

You don't believe we should try to convince them to love one another?

No, because...

Is love an ought? Ought we to love each other?

Well, I mean, you can't really say you don't believe in love. Like, you know...

There are some people that don't.

And that's fine. Like, I really, honestly, I really don't care what people think. Like, it doesn't... Like, I can go do my own thing, not be affected by what they do, because I hold myself on that different level of operation, where, like, I meet the people that are on my level.

Like, I don't need to meddle in their stuff. Like, if they don't want to be a part of that other society, then, like, they can live in that chaotic life. But that's not what I'm trying to say.

Okay, I got you. So, it sounds like you're saying that you don't believe. Love is an absolute standard. It's just what you prefer.

I mean, it's a standard in my life.

Yeah, for you.

But it doesn't mean it's a standard in somebody else's life.

Interesting. So, you don't really think there's any absolutes? Like, we ought to do anything?

No, I don't really believe in absolutes. I mean, like, the universe is infinite. Like, there's infinite possibilities.

I'm sorry, can you say that one more time? You said...

The universe is infinite and it's full of infinite possibilities. Like, we all come here to learn something some way, I think, you know, on a soul level. And if somebody needs to go through that karmic lesson of, like, living out of hatred, then, like, you know, I still love him from afar, but I don't need to, like, drain my own meat to, like, help that person.

It's like helping a drug addict. Like, you can only help them so much before they start taking away from you. It's the same thing with hatred. Hatred also sucks life out of you. So, you need to, like, create boundaries and essentially hold yourself together.

But, you know, by just, like, emanating light, by being loved, like, I can walk around and emanate that. And, you know, positive messages on my shirt. Like, all you have to do is see self-love, reach self-love to have that trigger in your mind.

And it's like, I didn't see that today. Or, like, I've been working on self-love. Like, the universe is talking to me through messages or whatever. So, you know, I don't even have to say anything. All I have to do is be me and I can change the world.

You said that you don't believe in any absolutes. So, there's no absolutes?

I mean, I don't think so, no.

Is that absolutely true?

No, I mean, there could be an absolute. Like, it doesn't bother me if there's an absolute. Like, I'm not trying to find, like, truth here. Because, like, we're just human and, like, we can only observe what's going on.

Like, we're not God. I mean, we're a source, too.

How do you know any of what you just said?

Because I'm operating on my own level.

What if I said I believe that I'm part of an alien race. And I believe that you are a descendant of my alien race.

I'd be like, cool, dude.

You would just accept it?

I would just, yeah. Like, I'm not going to shoot you down. I'm not, like, I don't need to tear anybody down.

What if I said I'm your God and I made you and you are to obey me in everything I say? Would you accept that?

I mean, I would be like, sounds like a kink thing, but, like, you do you. I'll do me over here.

Interesting.

I've got a response for everything, but I'm not here to tear anybody down.

No, no, I can see that, yeah. I guess the reason I ask is because I love your message that we should love one another. I think it's beautiful. I think there's a lot of people that wouldn't agree with us.

But that's why the subtle message is, like, love is dope. Like, love is cool. Like, love is awesome, you know?

But not necessary.

But I think in my life, yeah, it's necessary. Like, I need love. I operate on love. I feel, like, not as happy when I don't have love and joy in my life. Love brings me so much.

So, the love in my life brings me gratitude. I believe you. I believe that all of us are made in God's image and that God is love. And that you feel the way that you do because you can't help being the way that God made you.

And I think it's beautiful. And so, the reason I'm asking all the questions I am is because I think without an absolute standard of love, which I think is God, then you can't really say that anybody ought to do anything, which is kind of what you said.

You said there's no absolutes. And I think outside of God, outside of Christ, I think that there is no real meaningful love. It's just an emotion. It's just a feeling. Or even like you kind of intimated, it's not necessary.

It's not a moral obligation. You don't have to follow it. But if Jesus is who he says he is, then love is an absolute standard that we have to follow because of who we are.

And I don't think it's really necessarily Jesus because many prophets have actually spoken of love and the higher connection and what it means to embody love versus like God. That's why we kind of are more in the love level and not really getting into the religious things because once you throw Jesus in it or any other prophet, then you delve into religion, which is even harder for people to accept than just a kind message or a good word.

So I like to personally in my own life take away from religion, listen to it, observe it, believe what I want to believe, what it calls to me. But I think that really there's nothing special about Jesus except for that he did have love and that he shared it and was happy to share with everybody else because of the passion that he found, the gratitude that he found like many other prophets and people.

The Bible and the Quran, Buddhism, there are so many different religions that you can observe this from. Essentially the one golden rule that is through every religion is to treat others how you want to be treated.

That's what Jesus said, yeah.

But that's the basis of pretty much every collective religion ever. It comes down to that one rule, which is I think maybe like one of the very few absolutes of life is that whatever you put out will come back.

So if there has to be an absolute in anything, I would say that's probably the basis of what I believe.

So love is an absolute?

No, it's not because I'm not saying that love is an absolute. I'm just saying that whatever you put out comes back to you. The way that you interact with your environment, the way that you interact with life, the way that you think about things is what you see is going on and how that reflects.

So it's just up to anybody's interpretation?

Yeah, however your mind works. That's how we have crazy people.

So are they wrong?

No, they're not wrong.

You called them crazy.

Well, crazy, I mean like a stigma.

But they could be right.

But they totally could be right. Just take psychedelic drugs. They're like, wow, man, it's crazy.

If somebody operated with illogical things, they believed in illogic. They said, I don't believe you have to be illogical. I don't believe you have to love anybody or anything. I don't believe there's any moral absolutes.

You would say, cool.

Yeah, I mean, I might have an opinion, but that doesn't mean my opinion is wrong or right or that theirs is wrong or right.

So you don't really know anything?

No, I don't really know anything. I don't know what I experience, what I interpret because of my mindset and how open I am and how much I want to learn.

Self-Creation, Self-Harm, and the Need for an Ultimate Standard

So it's interesting, you seem to have embraced a worldview that says there's no absolutes, nothing is true, nothing is a moral obligation, and I don't know anything. And you're OK with that?

Yeah, because it leaves me to be in charge of everything in my life and instead of letting other things define me, I get to define myself. Therefore, I am in charge of my life. I am the creator.

I am God.

You're God.

In my life.

Yeah, because I'm the one that's doing everything.

I'm the one.

I'm not letting anybody rule me. I'm operating. I'm above, you know.

Interesting.

I'm the one that's changing people's lives. I'm the one that's doing all of it. So I don't need a religious figure to bless me or to look up to because I work on myself. If I work on myself, then I know God works on me.

Why would you need to work on yourself? You said there's no truth. What are you working on yourself for?

Just to be a better person.

If nothing is true. How do you know what's better? There's no absolutes in your worldview.

I have goals.

I have things I want to work on.

Why do you want to work on them? There's nothing true.

So when I struggle with self-harm, I know that's not a good thing.

Why?

Well, I mean, cutting yourself is kind of enjoyable.

By the way, I'm sorry to hear that you struggle with that. But I don't like that you struggle with that. I would want to serve you and love you and help you. But it seems like you've embraced a world...

I can't do that.

I can't. It's about my mindset. How I deal with things. How hard I am on myself. How I judge myself.

Just a couple of things to think about. I mean this really with a lot of respect and love to you. You said judge yourself. You said wrong. All of that suggests that you believe there's an ultimate standard outside of yourself.

Where you can call something good or wrong.

More so than health.

But you've denied all that.

I wouldn't say that I deny health. I think it's important to keep your body and your mind healthy.

No, I'm sorry. I said that. Maybe not clearly. I meant you deny that there's any absolute, anything that's necessarily true.

Yeah, but I don't have an opinion about what I think is best for me. It's because I don't think that there's any absolutism. I mean that I can have opinions.

Sure, but your opinions are not necessarily valid.

True, but it's my life. I'm here.

What I mean is to say this to you. I think that you have more dignity and value and beauty than you think you do. And I think that your rejection of Christ... Because by the way, Jesus said that he was God.

And he says that anybody who doesn't come to him will not have life. And he said that he's God in the flesh. And that you have to come to him for forgiveness and reconciliation.

What if Jesus was saying that God is like an I? That like when you said I'm different...

How do you know that?

Jesus and I...

How do you know any of this? You said you don't know anything.

I do know things. Like I know that he is. I have things.

Do you know it to be true?

I can think it's true.

But you don't know that it is.

I can't prove that it is.

Well, let me ask you that. I can. I can. Name one thing you're...

I would write down everything I know in a book and call it the Bible and say it's real.

But that's not the claim of the Bible, though. God entered into actual history itself and walked among us and spoke. And he said that if we reject his word, we are fools.

So how do you not know that I'm not God and that I am the word of God coming to you right now in this moment to talk to you and challenge you and have you listen?

Well, I would say... Well, there's a lot of ways to answer that. It's a good question. It actually is a really good question. But there's a lot of ways to answer that. I would say the first fundamental way is if you're claiming to be God and absolute.

I would say that you are internally inconsistent because you're saying you're God, the absolute. But you say there's no absolute.

I don't think God is absolute. I think God is everything.

I'm just answering your first claim, though.

There is no absolute infinity, so...

I'm answering your claim, though. Your claim is, what if I said I was God? I would say that you've already ruled that out because God would be absolute. And you said there's no absolutes.

Yeah, but what if God was like... There are no absolutes, actually. I don't think anywhere in the Bible God says there's anything absolute besides what He is.

Oh, sure.

I don't know. I think God's a punisher and He's a little bit more judgmental. And I really operate on...

Can I ask you this?

...a love space.

What do you think about...

And I think I already know your answer. What do you think about child molestation?

For lack of a better term...

Do you think it's evil?

Is it evil?

It's taken you a while to think about that one.

I mean, what's evil?

So you don't really know if child molestation is evil?

I don't say it's evil. I just say it's fucked up. Like, you're traumatizing...

So you wouldn't say it's... It's not evil, but it's effed up.

Yeah. Wow.

So, your worldview you've embraced... You reject Christ and you've embraced a worldview that says there's no truth, no absolutes, no moral oughts, we can't know anything, and child molestation isn't evil.

In the Bible, married young women, children, like, had multiple wives. Like, we could say that that's...

Married young children?

Young women, like, in those days.

They did get married young. They did get married young.

That's considered a child.

Yeah, they did get married young.

So, I mean, what do you think, like, if she didn't want to have sex, like...

Well, no one in...

...her husband was like, God, you're bad, like, we're getting married.

No, that's a good question.

You have to consummate your marriage.

I would say that the law of God would forbid that. God spoke to it. Nobody could force somebody to have sex or marry. That's called rape.

Yeah, which they still do.

Oh, rape is evil.

Yeah.

But no, in my worldview, rape is evil, but not in yours.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a messed up thing. It happens.

Is it evil?

I just can't, like... I'm not going to say. I'd say that that person probably really has some issues they need to work through.

But it's not evil.

I mean, we could say that anything is evil and turn against it and not have that available space to be open. If somebody were to come to me and be like, I'm a child and I need help and I don't know what I'm doing.

Or I feel bad or I have regret or it haunts me. I wouldn't say to that person that they're evil and disgusting.

Would you?

No, I'm with you. Actually, I think it's... I feel you. I think that God has grace and mercy and forgiveness for everybody, no matter what you've done. But what I mean is the act itself, is the act evil.

According to my world view, with Jesus at the center, rape is an absolute moral evil. But it seems like because you don't want Christ at the center of your life...

It's not that I don't want Christ, I just don't believe in Christ as the absolute.

Well, what if I told you he said he was?

I took a shit this morning. I said I did. Like, I did. But also, I won a million dollars today. And it was the most basic thing that's ever happened in my life.

Not seeing the connection. What I mean by that is, if Jesus...

I can say anything.

Right, of course.

Somebody, anybody could say that Jesus said anything 2 ,000 years ago. That's what's translated over a hundred different times, through different languages, taken apart, put back together.

Interesting.

Stem into a million.

Can I ask you a question? How did we get the Bible?

A bunch of people put some stuff in a book, I believe.

Well, you just said it was translated a hundred times.

It was translated many times over the years, through different writings.

What was it written in?

It was probably originally written in Hebrew.

Hebrew and Greek. And do you know that we can go back to the original language and translate directly from that into English? Do you know that the Bible says that God would preserve his word?

I would say that Judaism, like, Jesus was Jewish.

Yeah.

I think that would be more on, like, even if you want to go down that route, that, like, Judaism is even better than Christianity. Because Christianity worships Jesus Christ.

Of course.

Because the Old Testament, Judaism, the books of the Old Testament, prophesied every detail of Jesus' life and said that it was God himself coming as a man to save us from our sins. So the reason I accept Christ is because all the Old Testament prophecies tell you everything about Jesus, even when he was coming, even down to his identity and how he would die and rise again.

I didn't know that, like, they didn't just, like, put that in to rev up the Christianity, like, the Christ.

There's a number of ways to answer that, but I think you'll really appreciate this one. Just as one example, like, how do I know that they didn't insert that after Christ? And have you ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Okay, 200 years before Christ, those were buried in the Qumran area. And one of those scrolls was the book of Isaiah, fully intact, 200 years before Christ. And it's chocked full of prophecies about Jesus, including prophecies that it would be God himself coming, that he'd be born of a virgin, and that he would die in the place of his people.

It's completely impossible to be born of a virgin, like, straight up.

No, it is. It's miraculous. Yep. But it was prophesied in two parts of the Old Testament that he would be born of a virgin.

I really don't think that Mary's virginity really matters. Like, we know how people have sex, we know how children are made.

Sure. Oh, sex is good in the context of marriage. There's nothing in terms of virgin birth that has anything about sex being icky. It has to do with the fact that Jesus wasn't born of an earthly father.

He was born of a virgin with no earthly father. He didn't inherit what you and I have inherited.

I mean, we all have unearthly ties, so to speak. I mean, I've got to get going on this. Sure.

It's been interesting talking to you. Yeah, I've had a great time talking to you. I just want to share one last thing with you, just because I care about you. Everything you said tonight about love touches my heart in a big way.

And I think the reason you feel the way you do is because you and I are both made in the image of love. God, who's the image of love. I just want to encourage you to hear this. I think that you are more precious and beautiful and wonderful than that you say you are.

And I think that the worldview you've embraced, I think deep down you've got to know something is broken. Because the things you said don't really match up with what you're doing. And I just want to share this with you.

Jesus, who we're talking about, said that he was God in the flesh. And I know you say, I don't have to accept that. But if it's true, he said that he was coming to live a perfect life and die for sins and rise from the dead.

So that if we turn from sin and trust in him, we would have peace with God and be forgiven. That's the message of love.

And I'm finding peace in the love and forgiving yourself. Understanding. I might have done something bad today, but I'm an evil person. I forgive myself. I don't need somebody else to forgive me. I need to forgive myself.

Unless, of course, God is who he says he is and he made you for him and his glory. Then all of us are guilty, me too, of offending the creator who is love, who is perfect, and we're the rebels. So the truth is, I can forgive myself all I want, but if I've offended him, then I need to be reconciled to him.

And that's the message. That's what makes Jesus, I think, so beautiful. Is that he's love incarnate coming to chase rebels like you and me. Totally broken people like us. As a gift through faith. Not through anything we've ever done or ever will do.

It's not because we're good. He's the only good one. That's love. Someone coming to give themselves and give everything of themselves to people who don't deserve it. To people who actually hate him most of our lives.

That's beautiful. And you are shining right now. I mean, I'm telling you, it's all over you. Love, love. You are emanating, emanating God. And walking down the street in terms of, like, the image of God is all over you.

The love of God. But I think that you're missing the most important thing. And that's love himself. Knowing him. And the only thing that separates, the thing that separates you and I from God is our sin.

I'm completely guilty. You're completely guilty. And there's no way to crawl our way back to God through good deeds or religiosity or anything like that. It's all through what he did and it's a gift. Through turning from sin to trust in him.

And he gives you life. Eternal life and forgiveness.

That's the message.

We all die.

Yes.

Eternal life doesn't exist.

Eternal life does exist. It does.

With him.

In a, like a, my atoms will still be atoms way.

No, I think that's what I mean. That's what I'm telling you about. You are more...

We have an energetic soul consciousness.

How do you know that?

Because they've done studies, they know that consciousness does exist.

Sure does.

There is a piece of us that actually lifts out of our bodies, an energetic wave thing.

I believe that.

Definitely.

No, totally.

That matches the biblical world view.

Yeah.

Completely.

I grew up Christian. I went to a Catholic school, private Catholic school for eight years. I've been through it all. I went to church every, every two days, every week, like, my whole life. And I just found more hatred and more judgment and more...

You ran into a lot of...

Issues.

A lot of sinful people, yes.

So I just, like, I bounced out of it. And I, you know, I find the world view that I do because it makes me able to talk to anybody instead of having that judgment. And I think that God is a very awkward conversation for people.

Yeah.

And that's why we put self-love on our shirts instead of going to everybody and sitting them down and talking to them about self-love and how they need to have it.

See, but here's the thing, though. I like what you're saying. I told you I like it. But you can't really say that with your world view. You need to have it. I don't need to have anything with your world view.

That's true.

You can do whatever you want.

Catholicism, Scripture, and the Gospel of John

So you see, everything you're doing right now, apart from Jesus, is meaningless. And you know that's not worthy of your life, your time. You're much more than you think you are. And if I could share one thing with you.