Christians and God's Law- Laborers' Podcast

It says we're live Happy Thursday, everybody. This is the laborers podcast where tonight we discuss the

Christians relationship to the law I pray that you stick around for a little while ask some questions. The comment lines will be open shortly if they're not already and We'll have

Rob the reshaped Reshaped Robin from the truth and love network

We've got Providence perspective with the reformed Rican and then there's a guy on the top right hand corner I haven't seen in a hot minute, but he seems like he's happy and is a

Calvinist So it's the name suits him and then down there in the bottom right hand corner.

We've got the bread of the word with Tyler No, he's thank you so much for sticking around See that what that intro looks like, bro

Welcome to the laborers podcast which is a part of the truth in love network

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Welcome back. Welcome back. Thank you for the intro big John. We are You did well you did well, and I'm so thankful.

We're all thankful to be together There will be with you and we're thankful to have our

Brother Claude Ramsey back with us. He has been ministering in other places and we're thankful for him.

Thankfully. He's back and we all say Claude just put up a Advertisement video what did you call it?

Romo promo video for the conference. We want to let you know about hopefully we can get it up here and show it to you Go check out

Claude's promo video For the laborers conference coming up April 26 to the 28th and not

Tennessee. It's a free conference It's gonna be at Rep Ramada Baptist Church. Yeah on Chapman Highway.

I got it right that time Highway, it's it's free. Go to laborers conference calm and register.

We would love to see you there fellowship with you there's gonna be preaching and teaching and we're just gonna soak up God's Word and we're gonna sing and Pray together and fellowship.

It's gonna be a really good time I'm looking forward to hear my brothers preach and expound on God's Word actually

God's Word. The comment lines are open Let us know you're watching ask a question.

So let's get started God's law. This is this is a Debated We're probably gonna have differences of opinion here to even here tonight among.

Oh, yes so But it's good for us to talk about these things that we have a difference in because we want to know what

God says We want to know How we need to believe in these things. So we need our we need our brothers

We need a Holy Spirit. And so Let's talk about it What What does the law of Moses consist of?

So you so typically when people say the law would you would you all agree that they're talking about the law of Moses?

Yeah, okay in part in part Explain what you mean,

Jay Well when I hear the law I'm thinking of God's moral standards, right

God's expectation of Of or God's Standards for humanity right now

He might apply specific aspects of law to a particular group of people in a particular time period

But it You know, so the law of Moses does have an aspect of That right.

There was an aspect of the law that was given to Moses that applied to Israelites at that time

But I wouldn't necessarily say that Everything that God commanded Moses Applied only to Moses and the

Israelites at that time, which I know that's gonna be one of the points of contention tonight No, I was actually listening to somebody talk about that today

That was said something very similar that there's some parts of the law that are going to be Universal and expand throughout history

I was just adding to you what you're saying there transcend Yeah, yeah transcendent and then there's some parts that are just just for the nation of Israel Yeah, does anybody else want to hit on that when we say the law or the law of Moses?

What what does that consist of? Could I jump in on that? I haven't been here in a while. So I'm gonna so Deuteronomy chapter 6 again,

I think We got to go to Scripture right off the bat So a number of times throughout the scriptures we have that terminology used right the law of Moses Used in the

Old Testament used in the New Testament in Hebrews so Definitionally, I think if we start with the scriptures,

I think that'll be beneficial. So if we're going to be Defining what is the law of Moses?

Best to summarize it succinctly from the text. So Deuteronomy chapter 6

All of Deuteronomy chapter 6. I'm gonna move my screens around here for just a minute. So I don't have to I don't look awkward craning my neck over to the other screen

Or any any more awkward than I already am but so let's start there.

So Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 1 Now this is the commandment The statutes and the rules that the

Lord your God commanded me to teach you That you may do them in the land to which you are going over to possess it.

So the law again contextually right God's giving gave his law to Moses to Proclaim to the people of Israel so that when they entered the promised land, they would have standards, right?

they would have the Right in the wrong. They they would know what's right. What's wrong? Continuing there.

He said that you may fear the Lord your God you and your son and your sons sons By keeping all his statutes and his commandments which

I command you all the days of your life That your days may be long Here therefore

Oh Israel and be careful to do them and it may go well with you and that you may multiply

Greatly as the Lord the God of your fathers has promised you in a land flowing with milk and honey

Here Oh Israel the Lord our God The Lord is one You shall love the

Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your might And these words that I command you shall be on your heart

You shall teach them Diligently to your children shall talk of them when you sit in your house

When you walk by the way, and when you lie down and when you rise You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes

You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates And when the Lord your God brings you into the land that he swore to your fathers to Abraham to Isaac and to Jacob to give

With great good cities that you did not build and houses full of good things that you did not feel and Cisterns that you did not dig and vineyards and olive trees that you did not plant and when you eat and are full

Then take care lest you forget the Lord who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of slavery

It is the Lord your God you shall and you shall fear him him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear

You shall not go after other gods The gods of the peoples who are around you for the

Lord your God is in your midst in your midst is a jealous God Lest the anger of the

Lord your God be kindled against you and he destroy you from off the face of the earth You shall not put your

Lord your God to the test as you tested him at Massa You shall diligently keep the commandments of the

Lord your God in his testimonies and his statutes which he has commanded you And you shall do what is right and good in the sight of the

Lord that it may go well with you and that you may Go in and take possession of the good land that the

Lord your God swore to give your fathers You'll do this by thrusting out your enemies from before you as the

Lord God is promised When your son asks you in a time to come What is the meaning of the testimonies and the statutes and the rules that the

Lord our God has commanded you? Then you shall say to your sons We were Pharaoh's slaves in Egypt and the

Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and the Lord showed signs and wonders great and grievous against Egypt and against Pharaoh and all his household before our eyes and He brought us out from there that he might bring us in and give us the land that he swore to give our fathers and The Lord commanded us to do all these statutes to fear the

Lord our God For our good our good always that he might preserve us alive as we are this day and The last verse there says it will be righteousness for us

If we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God as he has commanded us

So in in short long form You know, I think if we're going to talk about the law of God We need to go you look at the text what the text refers to is the law of Moses or as the question was the law of Moses and That we build from there

That's a good. That's a good summary for the book of Deuteronomy to lead into why the law was given, you know, what was going on when the law was being given and We see the covenantal nature of the law the blessing and the curse, right?

Yeah indeed See that as well in Deuteronomy 28

Jesse Hardin is getting ahead of us a little bit here. Yeah That's a brother

Jesse's a good man he he pastors a temple used to be called Temple Baptist at six point over in Mosborough, North Carolina Thank you for spending some time with us brother

Jesse it's good to hear from me and that is on the docket for tonight. We will be delving into that a little bit later tonight yep, so I Well, I was just gonna say, you know,

Deuteronomy 28 follow just following up on what Claude says in regards to the covenantal nature of the law

That was given to Moses if you read Deuteronomy 28, I'm not gonna do it because you know, we don't have enough time, but It's blessings and curses, right?

You keep the law. These are the blessings you get you break the law These are the curses you get and you know,

I Do take a covenantal approach to? The law which means that I would consider that an aspect of the covenant of works

If you don't know what the covenant of works is just to keep it very very simple very brief It just basically means, you know,

God makes this covenant with man where he says You do this and I will bless you

You do this or don't do this and I will curse you so that that's essentially covenant works in a nutshell

So I'm gonna leave it at that for now because it can get really really Deep and I think we we got to keep a little bit of order tonight.

So What What was

Israel's relationship the law, yeah, absolutely And we so we apologize. We have failed to bring that to everybody's attention and Praise the

Lord for you big John You were just called and accepted the pastorate

Laurel Memorial Laura. Yeah, Laura Memorial Church Relations, thanks, sir

Thank you, sir What was Israel's relationship to the law and we kind of touched on that as as Claude read and described?

That's part of what the the law was for And so what was their relationship to the law according to that passage and maybe other passages?

and According to the general over overarching idea of the law is this is how they had communion with God This is the way that Israel This is by the means of which their relationship was with him and because of their heart of heart he would say later on that that the law was used but That is the manner in which

God chose To interact with his people. What's up, bro?

What's going on brothers? And there's one thing that hasn't changed with that and that is that the relationship we have with God is still on his terms right we come to God in the way that he wants us to we worship

God the way that he wants us to he'll accept nothing less and and his relationship that he had with Israel was set based on His covenant and based on his ordinances and he said this is going to be this way like it or lump it and Israel that's why it was that's what when

Paul Claude said we ride on the doorpost in the Lenten I don't know if you actually said that's what King James words it right and then you you teach your children the law when you're

Getting up and going out. It's because if you're gonna have a relationship with God you you need to know this This is how we this is how we interact with God.

This is how we interact with people not just God There was there was aspects of the law. That was that was used to Govern how

Israel treated one another how they treated their neighbors. So every area of their life was dictated in Any and it's law right whether it be civil moral or ceremonial all of this is laid out in a way that gives

Israel both commands and Consequences for either following them or disobeying them

And speaking of their neighbors, I would just add one thing It's it's my understanding that their relationship with the law was in in this covenantal aspect

Not only the the blessings and cursings if if they keep it or they they disobey but in Keeping it they were it was intended for them to be a blessing to their neighbors and they were to see

God in them and it and draw other people To God.

Yep, and they were meant to be a blessing to the other nations And I think it's important to stress

Exodus chapter 4 let my son go that he may serve me that God called

Egypt and he called Israel. He called Israel out of Egypt to serve him that that's the beginning of this journey and in the

The process by which we get there They don't serve him. And so they spend 40 years in the desert

Wonder I want to walk it around in circles and it's like you have this gradual

I Guess purging of the Egypt nests from them each other They are willing to submit to God and to serve him rightly, you know

God got Israel out of Egypt overnight, but it took him 40 years to get Egypt out of Israel So Deuteronomy chapter 7.

So if you're gonna reach this chapter 6 chapter 7 verse 7 Yahweh did not set his affection on you nor choose you because you were in more in number than any of your peoples

For they were the fewest of all people but because Yahweh loved you and kept the oath which he swore to your fathers

Lord brought you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery the hand of Pharaoh the king of Egypt So We make no mistake about it.

It was God's established Commandments his covenants and his his promises that he's keeping in all of that And I would even go ahead and lay a little track y 'all can load those cross ties to it as we go

But it's my firm belief that the reason that the law Is so all -encompassing and the reason that the law is so impossible to keep it

So that there would be salvation and no other than the one who's able to keep and fulfill the law

And I'll stop there for right now But that's my firm belief that that's why the law is so impossible to keep in its fullness

That kind of leads us into the next part of that question, is there any Relationship between the law the law of Moses and eternal salvation

Absolutely. Okay explain that because the law Serves to make sin exceedingly sinful the law serves to make to make punishment for sin necessary Where there is no where there is no

Abrams law then there can be no transgression by definition, right?

Now in the New Testament We see this expounded on where your consciousness or your conscience is also either going to testify against you from the book of Romans perspective and The Gentiles indeed had a law unto themselves and that they know what's right and what's wrong

Because God has given us knowledge of what's right and what's wrong. However The law serves to make

Sinfulness punishable by eternal damnation the book of 1st

Corinthians chapter 15 Well, it's on the last verse of the chapter it says for the strength of sin is in the law

But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ therefore my brothers be steadfast immovable abounding in good works knowing that that Your faith is not in vain something like that That is part of the

Easter episode of bread of the word this week 15

I did reading the whole chapter. I love this chapter. Listen, I've got I've got a video coming out tomorrow night actually and as it

Happens, I think well, I told you guys it's on this exact same topic that we're talking about right now

Yeah, I Know these were the questions whenever I was I was mowing grass reading them a while ago and I said

So this is this related this question, it's not the law of Moses but when it comes to natural law or creation speaking and displaying the glory of God can

In nature's law the natural law or creation speaking Convict a person of sin can it show them their sin or does it does it need to be?

The law Moses to an extent. Okay. Yeah It would not

It would know it would not show you the fullness of of your

Your sinfulness against a holy and mighty God, you know I think it's

Romans 3 that says that for by no works of the law or five or by works of the law No human being will be justified in this night

Since through the law comes knowledge of sin Now in in Romans 1 starting in 17,

I actually talks about the gospel in verse 16 He says that because what is evident of that God can be clearly seen through creation

Sure, so the goodness of God and the majesty of God is clearly observable

By the way of general revelation. Yep. Hey, man, John, there you know, you know enough

There is enough revealed. That's right. It takes a special kind of stupid to believe God don't exist You really have to you really have to be willfully ignorant and I know we laugh about it

But I'm serious you have to it's a borderline. It's not about stupidity at this point. It's about actually

Lying to yourself and choosing I believe that lie as opposed to believe what's your eyes your ears your nose

All five senses can take in it it takes It takes truthfully trying your best to believe anything

But God when you walk outside and you look at creation, I have a shirt that says

I don't believe in atheists Yeah I'll wear it to restaurants and stuff and so far.

Nobody has stopped me to argue with me, which I'm kind of disappointed in Yeah, the biblical term for what y 'all are talking about is rebellion.

That's exactly That is the that is rebellion typified And I'm glad you mentioned that about General revelation because that's that's the key right there that general revelation

Reveal it makes the knowledge of God known to every human being Special only special revelation only the reveal only the scriptures themselves that reveal

God's saving light Through nature, but God cannot be savingly known through me.

That's true. That's true. And and the other part of that Special revelation is that you have to hear the name of Jesus?

Oh Yeah, you have to hear the law of God to know seeing because because then you also have to hear the name of Jesus to Be to be saved

Everybody's talking John's talk about preaching it Talking about Jesus is talking about having a podcast about it tomorrow

Sunday morning, I mean What I'm saying that publicly Zechariah where we're talking about the the the certainty of God's faithfulness the law and the gospel really because that's again very significant in and Important to our conversation tonight because there always has to be for again for a person to know they're sinful

John Big John said it right what Rome teaches that the the law is made exceedingly sinful

The knowledge of the law. Yeah where we can understand seeing and understand what sin is.

It's not a slip -up. It's not a hiccup Daisy It's that we have rebelled against a holy holy.

Holy God. That's right the only remedy is a perfect life and There Gospel, no man is able to perfectly keep the law

Except wait, Jesus Give obedience of Christ where he

Completely kept the law of God perfectly and not only was he the Son of God, but he was fully man

And that's there. I know it's a little it may be a little early for the gospel proclamation But it's never too early for the girl

It's all I know so that's where Christ being both Son of God Son of Man fully 100 % both where he was able to bear the wrath of God for our sins the only

Acceptable sacrifice for our sins because he perfectly kept the law of God.

He lived the life We could not live he died that he could not die and he rose Corrected himself from the dead.

Yeah, or of God On the third day and he ascends to the father where he ever lives to make intercession for us

He is our great high priest. Amen. Amen. Praise the Lord I've heard it said

Natural revelation is sufficient for condemnation and special revelation. The word is sufficient for salvation

Oh, let's let's give the last he ain't never been on here where the keys are on here This this is and it's turning into a good

Easter And we use some strong language

To describe those who are Denying or in rebellion we use some strong language, but the but the reason that we approach with compassion is because it's just like Claude did you hear the language that Claude use we were in rebellion?

We broke God's law Yeah, so we are our faces the knowledge that that we now have was veiled at one time as well so we approach compassion because We such were us

Yeah, and on that track could I read Nehemiah 8 Do it. All right.

So Nehemiah 8 verse 8 And just to get a little bit a little bit of backdrop here

Ezra has that's right Ezra is a rebuilding

Israel after the exile they are coming back from Babylon from from captivity

This is like the fateful few many have chosen to stay where it's comfortable in bondage believe it or not and this is the few that have chosen to make the journey back to Israel to rebuild to Repent to continue to follow

God in their in their city and in chapter 8 They find a copy of the law and they begin reading in chapter chapter 8 verse 8

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly and gave the sense and caused them to understand the reading

Nehemiah Which is the Shanta I'm sorry

I've got all this pronunciation guides in my Bible and Ezra the priest the scribe and the

Levites that taught the people said unto all The people this day is holy unto the Lord your God More not nor weep for all the people wept when they heard the words of the law

And then he said unto them go your way Eat the fat and drink the sweet and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared for this day is holy unto the

Lord Neither be sorry for the joy of the Lord is your strength. Amen And oftentimes we we quote that verse kind of partially the joy of the

Lord is your strength? We put that on coffee cups and t -shirts and and mouse pads and things and it's kind of everywhere

But we don't always put it in context and thing. What does it mean in? The context of the law to say that the joy of the

Lord is my strength To say the things that delight God Are my strength

That's good. You see the old Scott's confession. I think puts it beautifully that the Holy Spirit of God is the cause of good

That the thing that causes us to obey God is

God That the only way we can obey that we can do what this book says is not because we're good people not because we've put on some kind of Some kind of magical underwear and now we are holy people

Quite the opposite that despite all that we are Christ died for us. Amen And then he caused his spirit to enter us.

Yeah to to empower us to do what we couldn't before To walk with him

To enjoy what he has called us to do not just to do it but to enjoy it

This is why Paul speaks so vehemently Against what he calls a doctrine of demons something we would probably call legalism something having the form of God leads to none of its power

Something that dresses up sinners, but leaves them sinners. Yep And so when we're when we're talking about the law and we're talking about the condemnation of the law

There is freedom in obedience Because it's not just freedom from the law, but it's freedom to its freedom to the things that God Delights in amen because there are things that we also

Delight in so it's not just a law that affects the hands, but it's a law that affects the affections

It's a law that changes the heart Tyler is getting to something that well, you know,

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my Commandments. Mm -hmm, right He said that his yoke is easy and his burden is light

He doesn't say there is no burden right there is no yoke there is a yoke There is a burden but it but it's easy and light, you know, first John 5

You know his his Commandments are not burdensome and I think all of this leads into Well, Jesse Harden touched on the threefold division of the law.

That's where we might have some disagreements Among these brethren here, but I think we could agree

As far as the three uses of the law right this or maybe not, I don't know I guess we'll find out but But it's a primarily a response reform perspective.

Although I think Lutherans uses as well and so basically to simplify what the three uses of law is it's

You've got the law as a mirror first use Shows you who you truly are shows you cannot keep

God's perfect standards Second use is a shield, right? Probably won't talk about this one as much at least tonight

Where the law protects from evildoers right protects other people from evildoing

You're not gonna sin if you know that there's consequences to your sin Say for example, my children are not sharing and stealing things for one another they know that daddy's gonna come in and you know

Bring bring the belt or something like that. I think I just confessed to like child abuse, but Point is the second use of the law is like a shield, right?

It protects those who are doing righteous things from those who are There you go.

And then the third use of the law is Some people would say a compass. I like to call it a guide right psalm 110 maybe your word is the lamp unto my feet

That's how I see the law of God when you are saved right because we're no longer condemned by the law

We know that there is freedom in Christ Therefore we love him so much that we just want to please him by keeping that law that he has given

Knowing that we won't we won't keep it perfectly. We won't but out of love not fear of condemnation

We can fully proceed to keep that law and it's not a burden And if I can read a quick from the 16 and 9 chapter 19 the law of God paragraph 7

I think what Jay just said in Tyler read and he said I think it goes perfectly well where it says neither other

Aforementioned uses of the law Contrary to the grace of the gospel, but we comply with it with the

Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and Cheerfully, which the will of God revealed in the law required to be done

So, I don't know that I I'd have a little bit of disagreement on that but I'm gonna

I'm gonna put this way Romans chapter 2 and Ephesians chapter 2 to me

Go go pretty close to the so they could be in the same book, right? Well, they are in the same collection of books

Yeah Yeah, so I read Romans 2 first Therefore you're without excuse old man

Everyone who passes judgment for in which you have judged one another you condemn yourself for for you who judge practice the same things

We know that judgment of God falls rightly upon those who practice such things But do you presume this old man that he passes judgment

On those who practice such things and does the same that you'll escape the judgment of God This is a question not a statement even though I said it kind of statement like Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and the forbearance of his patience?

Now before I finish this here's what? Paul would say about the law being our tutor or our schoolmaster

Later on he would say that he that that the law is our schoolmaster. I Think Spurgeon who says that the law of God can take you to the cross and after that it can do nothing else for you

Might be wrong as quoting Spurgeon. I don't really know Spurgeon yet good, but I'm going to say that's that's what

Spurgeon said In the world of reformers. I don't really read many of y 'all Had I not been born again the second half of this next verse would not make sense so to those who are under the law and turn and that's a question coming up in terms of their of their

Relationship with God being observed as through the law of Moses This part is going to seem somewhat elusive to those who are outside of Christ altogether and Have no concept of the law or of grace or of of Christ at all

And also it's not going to make much sense. But to those that are saved this next part is Is how

I say that that living up without the law in? Christ Makes us not try to adhere to a law.

He says that his kindness Leads us to repentance Once once Christ has saved you and you realize the measure of what that salvation cost you it is not a matter of How how can

I make sure that I don't break this word? It's that I can't believe that God loves me this much

I can't believe that God has given this much for me and I don't want to do things to to upset him and He gives us clear guidance when he says love the

Lord your God with all your heart with all your mind with all your soul with all your strength which encompasses better part of half of the law

And then saying love your neighbor as yourself, which catches the rest of it so if if in Christ you understand the magnitude of your salvation then

His kindness and his and his mercy and his grace is enough in my opinion to keep you

Inside of his will because you can't help but love God once you understand the magnitude of your forgiveness

You can't help but but love God once you realize what his grace has done for you. You can't help but love your neighbor

Whenever you see that God loves them the same way he loves you and yet they're blind deaf dumb and stupid and are walking headlong into damnation and And have no understanding of what's going on so then that's whenever God sends someone to them with the understanding that comes by only being

Illuminated by the Holy Spirit and his word and having truth to give them. So it's it's kind of like Salvation in Christ the infilling of the

Holy Spirit makes this gospel and makes the truth of this gospel More than just an intellectual truth more than just something that you can you can prove factually but it drives you to a place of repentance and I'm a firm believer and Repentance being a continual thing.

Not a not a one -and -done moment where you raise your hand or you walk somehow And and I scarcely think about the law

Whenever I think about striving to live for Christ so much as I I think

Would this behavior Please my father Or would this behavior is this something if Jesus was out here with me today?

Would he be upset if he heard me say this or heard me talk like this, right? And about my regeneration

By the renewing of the Holy Ghost That's what that's the one of the biblical terms that use there.

Yeah. Well, that's everything I heard I have I've been in agreement with your brother And when you get to Ephesians 2, you know, it couldn't it couldn't be more solid

You were dead in your transgressions and sins

In which way you formerly walked? According to the course of this world according to the ruler of the power of the air the spirit is now working in the sons of disobedience

You don't understand Just the magnitude of how of how hopeless your state is

Until God has given you his spirit and shows you his his truth like that and you say, you know what?

Man, I was hosed up from the floor up. They wouldn't a thing I could do to help at all

This is purely a work of God. This is purely done by grace and And then you see your neighbor lost and undone and you're less likely

To throw a rock at him because he does something stupid because what you realize is that's normal for him

Yeah, how ought he act? How should he behave? I know it's crazy, right?

It's like dogs act like dogs John that that that is exactly what the 1689 is affirming there

That's exactly what it's By the power of the Holy Spirit we are in it we are unable to do those things and and it's like you said

John we're Repentant. It's a continual repentance and what is repentance are turning away and it's a turning also the turning to turning to what to God And his word have this mind in you that Jesus Christ the same mind is in Jesus that repentance is a renewal of your mind

And it's continual. He makes you new every morning To pour into you the more you walk with him the more he'll reveal to you and and he is the old

Church of God song Goes he gets sweeter sweeter sweeter as the days go by Amen So, I'm sorry.

What was the disagreement then? I think I just all 100 % I may have misunderstood the way he was referring to the law

It's really easy to get lost in the vernacular Denomination says it this way and this denomination says it that way.

Yeah Well, we're also affirming with Big John the total depravity of man

Man yeah apart from Christ. So we're affirming his reformed soteriology there.

I mean Welcome to Calvinism big job.

I knew Rob was gonna break. I said I'm not completely stupid. I knew where Rob was going with that Hey, listen, if you don't want to if you well, yeah

But just just just say I'm a charismatic Calvinist Broke clock is right twice a day and I ain't saying that I ain't saying that your boy

Calvin didn't get one thing, right? You know blind hog finds a acre and every now and again

I Never heard that terminology. Well, you don't live in Gaston County I'm sorry.

I just I have a question for for big John When you read

Romans 331 and I think it's Romans 7 14 16.

Hang on. Let me see if I can find it No Romans 331 do we then make void the law through faith?

God forbid. Yay. We established the law. So why so why? Hey, I'm obvious Wait before you answer before you answer.

So I want you to tell me what you do with Romans 331 with Romans 712 and Romans 716 so keep those in mind as you answer the question.

I just want to know what you do with those texts Romans 712 Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good.

What was the last one? 716 716 if then

I do that which I would not I can send unto the law that it is good Nobody's questioning that the law is good

Nobody's questioning that the law and all good things come from God, right?

So What is the point of establishing the law if the law can do nothing more than show you your sin?

The point of establishing it is because they'll always be people who need a Savior there'll be people born every year who are just as born under sin as you were born under sin and they're going to have to Have somebody who can logically

Spiritually biblically look at them and say here's why you're a sinner You're a sinner not just because Adam rebelled against God But even if you didn't have the inherited sin from Adam You'd have your own rebellion where you've become a god unto yourself where you've chose things other than God to worship on the regular where you've looked with lust where you've

Fornicated or where you've stole or you've cheated or lied or just been angry with somebody without a proper reason

So there'll always be a need of a Savior and will always need a law so that we can stand on the exact same

Criteria that save those that walk with Jesus as a walk with him now. Okay, we're on the same page

I just wanted to know what you would say We're going through Romans in church at church and I had the privilege of actually preaching

Romans 7 not to Not not too long ago. And and this is what I got out of it in relationship your question

Starting in verse 2 for the married woman is bound by the law to her husband while he is living

But if her husband dies she is released from the law concerning the husband So then if our husband is living she is joined to another man

She shall be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she's free from the law so that She is not an adulteress

Though she is joined to another man And so here's the spiritual application therefore brethren.

You also were made to die to the law Through the body of Christ, so there's the first part we're dead to the law

We've been made to die to the law, but it doesn't mean that it is history

It's long gone, but Paul also says that it's good. It's holy. So what's the second part of that so that There's a so that you might be joined to another

There's the positive aspect of law. So we've died to the law be made alive in Christ so that we can

Apply rightly the Word of God I Love it.

I mean it makes sense with Christ when in Christ being the fulfillment of the law he

He goes to that cross and nails it to that cross Yep, so that it can be so not only has the law been fulfilled

But now the punishment of breaking the law has been levied upon Someone the only one who can take the full penalty of God's wrath the fullness of God's wrath and Ever have chance of life ever again, and that's

God himself I heard I heard a pastor once say that like the life of a person who ultimately

Gets saved Goes like this under law Or I'm sorry law

Gospel and then law I would actually argue that it's law Gospel and then law and gospel together

You know, they're they're they're distinct things But they're inseparable for one another without the law.

You can't have the gospel You know that the gospel you can't keep that law Train track.

There you go. There you go. Yep, because there's not a Undefined Standard, which is what the law is right and for for for us to that would be what

I would refer to as an unreasonable Expectation it would be an unreasonable Expectation for us for our children if one of our if our children did something wrong

What we deemed is wrong, but we didn't set that standard there It would be unreasonable for us

However, God has set the standard as a matter of fact, like we mentioned earlier, right what you all said earlier the

Romans one tells us that's it the law the transcendent law of God is built into every person man woman boy and girl

And so we're sinners by nature and we need God's law. Amen Are we on the next can can

I answer that next question? What are the implications and dangers in each view? Absolutely.

Let me do this before you start. But yeah, we can definitely move on to that I didn't have it didn't get a chance to do it when he posted but I wanted to say

Welcome to the truth and love network blue -collar Calvinist the Wayne Charles. We're glad to have you.

Thank you for watching Thank you for being a part of the network. So go check out blue -collar Calvinist if you

Are so inclined we'd appreciate that We're gonna have to have a tallest man in the network competition

So, did we do we confirm if he is now taller than me is he 6 '8 we we need to confirm that Because we might be tied.

How tall are you? I'm 6 '5 You're both taller than me. My license says

I'm 5 '10 We're not the same height

I haven't ever changed it. It was still 5 '10 when I was 15 I Figure if they're looking for a for an unbearded 5 foot 10 230 pound man, they'll never find me

Alias for a name Well, if we're doing a tallest person competition,

I will gladly take my last place for a few now I Speak any of you before call jumps back in and answers this question.

I did I did want to say brother You've you've gotten yourself in trouble If we rewind back to the last time

Tyler spoke to us You have added a second sermon on yourself for the laborers conference on the

Holy Spirit Because you were preaching my sermon and you were doing it better than I could ever do it. So You were you were talking to us about the

Holy Spirit you were preaching that sermon and it was good it was Pastor Edwin says he'll be the water boy.

I'm five six. So How tall are you Tyler five five foot four five foot four.

I'm just five eight. So Just think they're better than everybody

Listen y 'all got hair look at me. Okay, I may be tall but I ain't got hair I'm sorry,

Rob. I forgot to include. Well, you got a hat so You you could pull it off better than I can by the way there

Jay. Look at my hairline When he was 18 years old did he really

That hurts I Just want to say pastor Edwin has been throwing some fire up in here.

Oh how I love your law Psalm 119 when we are changed by the gospel our disposition towards the law is changed as well.

Amen Law of the Lord is perfect in converting the soul Amen so implications and dangers implications and dangers of the law concerning I think the two primary views would be one end of the spectrum would be

Antinomianism, which would say no law for the the hyper grace

Proponents would say we're not under though They're the ones that if they get pulled over by by the state trooper

They would have to reject the ticket and say no, I can't accept this officer. I'm not under the law.

I'm under grace Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds Basically what the antinomian speech

I know my rights And then the other end would be legalism, so So there's the law keepers which would be

Judaism Judaism would be law -keeping Trying to assuming that they're keeping the law to be right made right in the sight of God But there is there is no keeping the law because the scripture says if you break you offend in one point

Jesus you've offended in all points James says that as well.

Yeah, I have a question actually Would you guys agree that? that legalism first of all, it's an

It's an overused word by usually more antinomian types

Leaning that way. I think hopefully we all agree with that But I think we also have to properly define legalism because a lot of people throw out

Legalism when it's you're not being legalistic. So Legalism, I think it's two components

Number one you're trying to justify yourself by keeping the laws as Claude says and number two

You're adding to the law of God that which he has not said Okay, I would add a third to that that we are also divorcing the law of God from the heart of God Okay, you flesh that out.

I'm curious That by reducing it to a set of moral prescriptions. It actually misses the point by which

God gave you things. Yes Yes, 100 % So we're on board there

Jay I get called a legalist and a Pharisee sometimes too by People for really what comes out to sanctification.

Oh Sometimes yeah to that end. I would say that you have to be careful to some degree all you pastors preachers teachers

That if you're if you have a powerful conviction about something

Then that's not to say that that is not that's a bad thing For instance,

I know men who refuse to wear shorts in public Mm -hmm makes no sense to me whatsoever

I don't wear shorts in public most of the time because I don't I don't like them But I mean,

I don't wear pants to the beach. So, you know, I Dress accordingly in my opinion, right spend a lifetime cutting and welding

You don't hardly ever wear shorts to work you get uncomfortable in them. What about underwear? Why is it not acceptable for for me to wear underwear to the mailbox

April gets mad at me for that I'm not sure

I can imagine a member So anyway, my point is is there are some things that are that you have deep convictions about I won't make no bones about it

I refuse to to use tobacco and alcohol God delivered me from alcoholism and Addiction to tobacco products.

I don't mess with them and be my advice My my stern advice to where there's a whole lot better things you can do with your time and your money

Then you spend it on that right now I do know that there's

People who don't have this conviction I can't point to a portion of Scripture and tell you that people who use tobacco are going to hell so I don't preach that So I have a deep personal conviction and I'm not budging on it.

I Refuse to budge on it. I won't I So far as to say that I won't even hang out with people if if they're going to drink for instance,

I serve on a committee at work where we Donate money to homeless shelters.

We go feed people. We clothed with clothed people would take Backpacks to school and stuff like that Annually, they host a big fundraiser

Where a lot of vendors show up and they spend a lot of money to hit golf balls Into the woods or to throw cornhole stacks a cornhole boards

But all it really is is an excuse for these guys to get around drink beer, right? Now I don't even go to the meetings

Whenever they plan this thing. I got asked the last time I didn't go say you're not sitting for after this meeting I said not in a point.

He said why sick cuz I'm not gonna show up I'm not gonna show up and hang out with these guys.

I can't stand it I don't want to be around it and There's no point in me sitting here trying to figure out how in the world

We're going to organize an event that I'm not going to be at and not going to help facilitate Now, I don't condemn them guys for doing that But I'm also not gonna take part in it.

So to Tyler's perspective and Tyler's point of view There are such things that I believe sanctification covers that aren't necessarily

Lawful for everyone. They're not unilaterally distributed across all believers There are some things that you may have stained from and Truthfully, it may be that God convicts you of that because if you tried to partake in that it would be to your own detriment

Because I come from my church background I come from the opposite end of that spectrum or in the way of what

Claude was talking about with Antinomianism this idea that there's there's no law. It's all grace. There's no there's no rule essentially

Because there are churches that I went to in high school that's saying Taylor Swift unto the

Lord Oh What there were churches that we saying Taylor Swift we saying eye of the tiger by Katy Perry.

Nope In the youth group, we sang shut up and dance with me and these were part of the worship set

And if you had a differing opinion on that you ran the risk of being called a Pharisee If you didn't agree with From the ceiling because it's

Easter if you if you weren't about some of these things you got called a Pharisee So wait a minute. Wait a minute

They were being they were being pharisaical about you having a problem with their with their lack of pharisaical ism

So they're being legalistic in their own way And that's kind of where I was going that when you when you get into some of the we do church differently kind of Mindsets it has a tendency to be its own legalism.

It's just not about drinking Example I just use that as an example, right?

There's there's there's other things. I'm sure that wasn't a jab or anything Has been coming out of That way thinking about some things and kind of trying to reclaim some of that for some of the sense of reverence

Yeah without fall into that other ditch. Mm -hmm. So like I wear a tie to church.

I don't expect everybody to wear a tie to church And big

John No, no what I am probably the rest of my hand nor will we have you budge on your conviction on that?

Like you said you mentioned cigar Cigars tobaccos and whiskey and uh, and I just wanted to read something from Charles Spurgeon I actually posted on my face took a while back where he invited someone from America a preacher to his church and he announced and the preacher spoke on his conviction and you know in Charles Spurgeon is obviously well known for being, you know smoking his cigars.

And so he said Whatever is not a faith is sin And that's what point of brother of the brother that preached about you know

How he came out of you know smoking tobacco and all that and he said but if a man thinks it's a sin to wear

Black boots. Well, then let him give it up and you know, have it whitewashed then yeah, you know if a man is holding to that conviction and That's what

I kind of wanted to read that quote from this version I wholeheartedly agree where they give if a man is convicted with like you but like for you

John I think Romans Are you Romans? I think was a

Romans 14 applies here I think sure and I say that out loud for two reasons one is so that you know about it

And the second one is because I believe in accountability I believe I believe that if if I don't tell you if I tell you that and You see me doing something that I've told you

I have convictions, but I expect you to call me on it You understand I expect that if you care about me, you'd say hang on John No, you know your convictions used to be at least that you wouldn't touch this stuff

Now I see Something different what you know call me out on it because to me that's what people who love one another do

That's what brothers do whenever they see something, you know Slack in someone's life.

No, man. Can Rob? Can I connect? Can I connect what everybody's been saying here with some?

History From it basically intertestamental. So Jay I appreciate your twofold definition there and then

Tyler's at Third edition and what a lot of folks don't realize and understand was that was the great sin that Christ was

Addressing to the Pharisees. Are we talking about legalism? Yes. Yeah, you're

You're twofold definition of legalism, right? I've truly appreciate that because what

I'm about to say here It just brings it meshes everything together so Christ Rebuked to the

Pharisees was tethered in that statement because because what was

What was what the New Testament Judaism what the Pharisees and the scribes practiced was not

Old Testament Judaism. It was that intertestamental period when when these folks came about And they held to because they were to in the

Jewish tradition, there's two two traditions, right there's the

Written law. No, there's the written law and then there's the oral law What happened during that intertestamental period much like the the

New Revelation folks of our day? They held to that oral tradition

Which constantly made it able to be added to and so like for example when when the

Pharisees got on to Jesus Why don't your disciples wash their hands? Right and Jesus mentioned specifically here a phrase that so many people pass over the tradition of the elders

That's spoken of in the New Testament that tradition of the elders is the oral that's a reference to the oral law

Those many and constant additions that were being made to the law of God By the

Preferences of a group of people the scribes the Pharisees and the

Sadducees Particularly so that was right there That was the great sin of the

Pharisees and the Sadducees that they were constantly Adding to the law of God when the law of God simple enough the bare -bones law of God You don't even have to think about it.

We break God's law We just do it one way or another whether it's first table or second table.

We break that law But yeah, I appreciate you bringing that the twofold definition of legalism because that's what went on Burdens on them that they themselves couldn't bear.

That's right Yeah, yeah Well, let's sit on this. We've already made an hour

Let's sit on this because we said we would And I appreciate Jay your your what you said about this

Jesse brought up the the three types of law and if I'm using this correctly guys tell me if I'm wrong

But people use this term Tripartism understanding of the law is that correct threefold division of law?

Yeah, yeah, so Explain whether you you see this.

Is this what you see or Explain if you don't see it this way, I'm just gonna say right off the bat

Yes, I do see it, but I know not everybody does so I'll leave it at that. Okay All right next

Hey John, you see it as well Yeah, I mean there's there's more on civil laws given in the

Bible We have the Ten Commandments and most would call those the moral law I think

Jesus like I said summed them all up by saying love the Lord and love your neighbor and it really encompasses the whole breadth of all 613 ceremonial and legal and Moral laws all at the same time and a lot of ways

You can you can call it whatever that three -part word was you want to but Like Keith Foskey says if you don't if you love

Jesus you're gonna love your neighbor Alright, I need

I need a Hawaiian shirt I'll even add that in some So judicial law, for example, right?

Like those are the laws that were given to Old Testament Israel that no longer apply to us in the judicial sense

I would even add that there is Something telling about them and who

God is Sure, so there is a moral law component in those laws in themselves now

I'm not gonna open that whole can of worms, but Because I know that we might get into specifics and we might disagree on some aspect

But whenever God gave a lot there was a reason for it right in in the sense of There's not just a temporary reason for this long, right?

I'm speaking on who I am through this law. So You know, there's that whole law of putting a parapet on your roof

I'm sure you guys have heard about this right where you you know One of the laws was a put a little wall a parapet

You don't know what that is. Just like a small almost like fence around your roof So that nobody falls and dies, right?

That's really what it came down to But what what's the the moral principle behind that? It's well if somebody's gonna be in your home

You ought to protect them See Modern turns because you're in Florida.

So what do you have to put around a swimming pool? There you go offense protect kids

I keep gators out. There you go. There you go Same principle as well.

I saw a neighbor who had he was messing with his electricity and he just kind of left it all Over the place, you know live wires all over the place.

I'm like, yeah, he would be responsible of that You know if somebody got hurt It's kind of the same principle obviously,

I'm not gonna go tell him hey you better build a Fence around your roof because we don't hang out in roofs like they did in Old Testament Israel but We do have to protect life when when they're in our property in our home

I think that by saying that that God gives the law we immediately know that the law is good, right?

You've heard it. He has told you old man What is good and what Yahweh required of you, but to do justice to love kindness and walk humbly with your

God It's so much so much of the law is spelled out

Simply because man is so hard -hearted that he'll he'll hide behind Well, you know you didn't expressly say that I wasn't supposed to do that.

Therefore. There's Avenue You're not going to get God off on a loophole You're not going to go before him and somehow another pull some

Philadelphia lawyer mess and say well, you know the book doesn't say

You know XYZ. It's like yeah, but you have expressed in the New Testament Expounded on what the intentions of the law are what the breadth and depth of the law are to be covered

And if and if you wanted to look at it in one or two ways you can say we've got

Restrictions on how mad you can be how harsh you can be what you can do to for retributions

We've got limitations on all of these things, but there is no limitation on how much you can share the gospel

There is no limitation on how much you can love Jesus how much you can love you night There's no limit to the man who wants to love to against such there is no law

We have to put a law only against things that are detrimental to man and his relationship with God and society

Because man is wicked God never put an end to how much you can worship or how hard you can love

God or how much You can love your neighbor against such there is no law So just looking at it from that point of view if they're like guardrails

You've got a guardrail to keep you from running off the cliff But you don't have a guardrail on this side that tells you you can just get as close to God as you want to You can you can have as in -depth of a relationship with God as you want.

There's no law against that Let me ask you guys this question and you don't have to expound too much, okay, so Here's here's one of the arguments on the other side

You can you can see the threefold division I mean if you if you're reading the text you can see the threefold division, but one of the arguments is

Well, you don't see in Scripture evidence of Scripture itself dividing up the law into three parts

What how do you answer that question if you hold to the three -part threefold understand

How don't you see it broken up into more than one part? No, I'm saying I I can see it I think other people should be able to see it

But I'm saying that where do we see evidence of Scripture that Scripture itself divides the law of Exodus chapter 19

Exodus chapter 19 Moses goes up on Mount Sinai. He brings how many laws down with him? 613 or 10

Yeah, he brought 10 home, right? He he messed up. He had to go back and get him again because he didn't control his temper, right?

All right So he later on expounds on the 613 why because when he comes back from Mount Sinai They fell into the trap of idolatry and man's wickedness is so bad that God takes him by the hand

He says, all right, you stupid. All you had to do was was follow me.

It worked for Abraham Just get up and go to a land. I'll show you but because y 'all are so ignorant and so bent on being sinful

Here's what you can't do. You can't do this on Saturday. You can't do this on Sunday You got to do this on Tuesday three times only

I'm making stuff up Right, and if you don't do that, I'm going to open up the earth and swallow you

There's a consequence to not not obeying this it's because of man that God done this and To show that there was an answer

We'll get into the gospel again But that's it shows that I think about the law the way that I think about a big massive tree

You go look at a tree and it don't just sit on top of the ground There's about as much under the ground as he is on top of the ground and that's what holds it up When we see

Christ we see we see the hypostatic union as Claude was saying earlier We see the the triune

God's expressed on this earth right here. We see whatever Whatever God wants us to know about himself

Christ tells us and reveals it to us, right? And and all that is supported and all that's held up because the law the thing you don't see under the ground the intentions behind it

Are right there supporting everything. That's why he does this this way. It's so that it fulfills the law.

That's why he's he Speaks to in this regard and he doesn't have guile in his mouth

It's because he's fulfilling the law in every aspect of his ministry and of his life

So that it's fulfilled and so that he's the only one that's done it Yeah, and that and that depth of the law being satisfied in Christ To me it puts me in my mind big a woke tree

Matthew 19 8 and 9 Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so Whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery

God sometimes has to just grab us by the hand be like if you're gonna be this difficult about it.

Let me at least show you Well, we didn't get the touch on Some people believe that hold of the three parts three fold understanding of the law that The the latter two are gone and done away with you don't do anything with them and only the moral laws left

And that would that be a question for you for you Jay The onomist

Christian nationalists, right rightly defined How would how would you answer that?

We're not answering these questions but I'm just talking about things that we can have a continued conversation about and you're

You're saying how do I? How do I defend the threefold division of law when it isn't explicit in the scripture?

Is that the question? That will I mean that that is a question. It's not exactly what I was asking

I'm saying some people some people to hold that view with would say that The latter to the civil and the ceremonial are completely gone completely and there's only the moral

So what the onomist Christian nationalists rightly define? How would they answer that and then?

Some folks talk about in the New Testament if you if you don't see it repeated then it's no longer

In act or it's no longer applicable. Yeah Whatever is not reinstated in the

New Testament is done away with versus Whatever is not explicitly done away with in the

New Testament still applies. That's that's the distinction you're referring to Your fire for your for your law episode on on Providence perspective.

Yeah Go ahead.

Yeah, I'm sorry just to answer real quick the first question Well, you know the judicial and more and ceremonial are completely done away with well, no actually

Ceremonial laws Pointed to Christ They are fulfilled in Christ.

They're not gone. They're fulfilled. That's right Amen, a lot of people, you know, they want to detach the

Old Testament from the new But God doesn't change That's right. You know what

God established from the beginning, you know, we see the culmination of it in the New Testament You know

Jesus what isn't in Matthew? Five he says do not think that I have come to abolish the law

I'm not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it for until heaven and earth pass away Not one iota not one dot of the doll of the law.

Excuse me will be Will be abolished until all is accomplished

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. There you go. There you go.

And so What do you do with that if you say well no law no law even ceremonial law even even moral law, right?

No law you can't the the New Testament doesn't allow you to do that The New Testament affirms the law of God from the get -go

So there's the ceremonial law the judicial law There was a component of it and how it was applied under the

Old Covenant. That was just for Israel But as I said, there is also a moral component to it and the

New Testament still attests to that I gave you the example of the parapet on the roof. Okay? We don't do that because we're not under the

Old Covenant and we're not Old Testament Israel However, we do protect life on our property

We take the necessary measures to make sure that nobody gets hurt when they're on our you know on our property

So You know, I don't know if that answers the question or not the moral law I mean, there's no way around that you got to keep that come on now, but again it

Big John said something like, you know I think it was he was giving the example of somebody that says well

God didn't explicitly say this when people do that That's usually just saying what they're actually what they actually have in their heart.

Yeah, right, which is I don't want to follow God Yeah, yeah, that's really what they want, right? They don't want to follow

God, but they don't want to be condemned So they say well do I have to do this? God didn't say that who else says that who else says do we really have to do that?

Did God really say come on now? the serpent Whatever people say stuff like, you know, do

I have to do that? God didn't say that You you know, you know who you're being yeah, you know

Jesus said something to Peter one time he said get behind me Satan That's right so now the other side of that coin is

The the devil calls Eve out and her ignorant shows He said did

God tell you you couldn't eat of that fruit She said he said we could not eat it or touch it. And what did she do?

She added to a command that God Yeah, God never told Adam he couldn't touch it come on common sense tell you y 'all not

If you ain't gonna eat it, they know since I'm picking it By the way, did y 'all notice my light go out as soon as I finished talking about Satan.

Yeah, that's the demons. Yep I'm just saying That was weird

On you Pentecostal boys, come on Just played it some of y 'all may remember him

Carmen, but he did he had a song called Satan bought the dust I would have played Let's wrap things up if you if you would

Claude would you Give us the honor of sharing the gospel and Elias when he finishes.

Will you pray for us? Okay Yes, sir so the gospel as as you have heard proclaimed clearly throughout this

Tonight The gospel is this number? Primarily Christ died for your sins was buried according to the

Scriptures rose on the third day and the call the necessity of Christ's death is

Pointed out by the law of God again the subject of this entire podcast the law

God gave his law to Moses on on Sinai gate came down with ten

Commandments Broken down into two tables to take the first table of the law is our responsibility to God.

That's the first four Commandments the last six Commandments teaches our responsibility to man we

And do Regularly fail in keeping God's commandment

Jesus said if you fail to keep one commandment you fail to keep them all so that leaves us all guilty

Under the condemnation and the wrath of God, but the good news is Christ came

Christ died Christ Revived on the third day and he ever lives to make intercession for his saints.

I encourage you I exhort you today repent turn from your sin look unto

Christ and be saved today Amen Dear Lord, we just come up for you tonight just to give you honor and glory

Lord Lord, we ask that you use this alive tonight to bless someone someone who doesn't know you

Who doesn't know that he is a sinner Lord and that he needs a Savior you pray that by your law

It is showing them their sin Lord We pray that but I preach in the gospel here today Lord that they've come to know you and fall on the mercy of the cross

Lord Lord, I pray that These men here tonight. I pray that we all

Dwell on your word and as we present your words tonight Lord, even though we have our Differences here

Lord, we come together in unity in your name Lord that we might Build one another up Lord.

Yes, Lord. We ask these things in your name in your name only. Amen. I Love you guys very much and I thank you for participating tonight and we thank you for watching

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Until next time. Hope to see you soon. Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember Jesus is