Question and Answer ｜ The Dangers of Full Preterism w/ Dr. Sam Frost & Jeremiah Nortier

The Apologetic Dog

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Any questions? I think we've got one. Yeah. Yeah, Dr.

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Frost, I'll bite. Matthew 10, 23. What does that mean?

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I'll read the verse just so everybody's refreshed on that. Jesus speaking, when they persecute you in one town, flee to the next.

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I'm reading from the ESV, forgive me. I'm sure no one can understand it. For truly,

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I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

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Thank you. If you go to the beginning of Matthew chapter 10,

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Jesus has already commenced their going through the cities of Israel. They start in Matthew chapter 10.

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They go through and they heal the sick and do all that and then they come back to Jesus and report to him.

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Hey, we did all this kind of stuff and he does it, I think twice.

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Get into different harmonies of that. But he sends out, or sends out the 70 and then they come back and they tell him.

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So they've already commenced. They've already begun going through the cities of Israel. Jesus is in the northern area at the time of this particular pericope that he's saying there.

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And then he adds in, or Matthew adds in elements that are found in Matthew 24 when they're going to be persecuted.

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Now, on this commencement missionary journey, this two month, month journey that Jesus sends them out on and then they return and report back to him.

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They weren't persecuted. They weren't brought before kings. They weren't, you know, none of this kind of stuff happened.

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We know that this takes place in the book of Acts. And then Jesus says, you will not commence, or you will not complete.

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You will not finish going through the cities of Israel until or you could translate that before the

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Son of Man comes. That's how imminent that statement is. This is why scholars pick that up.

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This isn't if Jesus is saying this in 33 AD, 70 AD is too long of a time.

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This is imminent. I can go through the cities of Israel on a bicycle or by foot.

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Jesus went through, up and down through Israel. It takes about what? A month? Doesn't take that long. Israel's not that big.

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You can walk Vermont. You can walk Israel. Doesn't take that long. And in the three year ministry. So 70

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AD doesn't match it because it took them 37 years from 33 to 37, or 70.

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It took them that long to finish going through the cities of Israel? Didn't they have to go to the other most parts of the world and all the other stuff too?

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That's how imminent this is. This is imminent. And so scholars will look at that and say,

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Jesus obviously believed in his own lifetime during his own ministry that the glory of God would be revealed to all flesh.

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That's what they mean by that. That's not what the full preface means by it. The full preface means 70

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AD. But that's rejected. That doesn't work. However, there's another Irkomai coming of the

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Lord that's mentioned in Daniel 7 .13 and it uses the word Irkomai. Where is he coming to?

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He's coming. And what happens? Glory, honor, power, and a kingdom, and the nations will obey him.

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Well, if you're the son of man, when's that going to happen? Because if you're the son of man and all power and glory and authority is going to be given to you, sign me up.

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I'll follow you to the ends of the earth, which is what they do. So Jesus is limited to the cities of Israel.

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Don't go to Samaria. Don't go to the Gentiles. But at the end of Matthew, all power and authority has been given to me.

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That's Daniel 7 .13. In heaven and on earth, go to the nations.

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Why? Because they're mine now. They've been given to me as my possession. And I will rule them with a rod of iron.

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Now go and make disciples. I got your back. It's not Israel anymore. Now it's the nations.

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So there is a coming that takes place. So I'm standing here. Well, now it takes place until he comes with the glory and power of glory of the angels.

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Yeah, that's his ascension. That's Psalm 110. It's Psalm 2. The most quoted psalm in the

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New Testament is Psalm 110. He's at the right hand of the Father. Doing what? He's on the clouds of glory.

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He's ruling and he's reigning. He's present before the Father. So if you continue to read Matthew chapter 10, some of you standing here or finished going through the cities of Israel, and he keeps talking and then he talks about those who lose their life in Matthew 10, 30, and those who will gain their life.

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And then he says, but if you fail to confess my name before men, I will not confess your name before my

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Father in heaven. Now, when is Jesus going to heaven? In ascension.

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And what's he going to do there? He'll confess your name before my Father in heaven.

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When is he going before the Father of the ancient of days? You are not finished going through the cities of Israel before the

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Son of Man comes. And I will pour out my spirit and empower you for the second leg of this commencement.

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When you go to the nations, I will give you power and you will be born kings and you will go out and you will be persecuted.

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Some of you will be killed. Now it just makes sense. Oh, that's okay.

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So I have to throw out my full preterism and I have to throw out my dispensationalism and I have to throw out also my higher critical training.

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Jesus is not a failed prophet. Albert Schweitzer missed the ascension of the

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Lord to the right hand of the Father and he confesses Jeff's name and Jeremiah's name because I confess that Jesus is

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Lord and Jesus right now is confessing your name. Don't be ashamed of Jesus.

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I can't follow that up.

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That was remarkable but hopefully you heard the ascension there, right? It was being emphasized there.

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Skip. We just skip over it. And all I want to echo is there's another hard to understand passage in the same book of Matthew chapter 16 but it's the same point you just heard with him.

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So when you hear the son of man, Daniel 7 should be coming to your mind. And so Matthew 16 starting in verse 27 for the son of man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his

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Father and then he will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I say to you there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the coming of the son of man in his kingdom.

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And so something that we've talked about is it's not necessarily the word parrhesia here. It's the same word used in Daniel 7 to describe coming.

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So scholars, a lot of scholars are pushing back on the failed imminency of the Lord. So they're asking there's a coming of the

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Lord but where's he coming to? He's coming up. That's a coming. It's what

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Daniel refers to it. Calvin in his commentary read John Calvin and Daniel chapter 7.

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It's ascension. And we've just skipped over that. It's like we go to resurrection of Jesus and then his session and then we go right into Pentecost.

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But the session, the right hand, that's everything. That's the whole Jesus is ruling this evil world during this evil age over all powers and authorities so that our suffering is now conformed to his suffering and our death is conformed to his death.

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So our death is blessed as you were saying. Oh I've got to be conformed in his life his death, his suffering and his death.

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Yeah. Oh I don't know about that. I want spiritual. I want heavenly places right now.

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If you're going to identify with Christ take up your cross. That's what he says.

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And that's not that's not a it's a victorious message but not if you're living in the world.

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It's not victorious though. It's the exact opposite. Alright we have the all millennial king, Keith Foskey in line.

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Now why do I know your name? I've heard your name in several circles.

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Is this the knockoff brand of Doug Wilson? It's Harper Freight. I'm wearing brown.

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No but I am wearing shorts and church. My mom would be mad. So thoughts on you mentioned 95 % in your presentation.

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I'm assuming you were referring to some form of partial preterism. Yeah. Thoughts on partial preterism and where you would say is that a problem?

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Gateway drug? Well honestly your thoughts on that I would be interested to hear.

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Yeah so I was reading them in the 90s late 80s, 90s

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Ray Sutton, Gary Norris James Jordan who just lived outside of Pensacola so I had a visit with him

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David Chilton you could call on the phone David Chilton Can I talk?

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So really communicating with what they're trying to do but again my dispensationalism is kicking in.

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If you've got all of Matthew 24 apocalyptic language, that's the end and this decreation language is actually 70

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AD and it's the war and all of that's going on so then 1 Thessalonians 4 1

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Corinthians 15 fall right with it so we had a debate with Don Preston as a church we hosted

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Don Preston and he debated Mark Hitchcock and Thomas Ice so I got to meet Thomas Ice and Mark Hitchcock and took him out and I said hey and the nice guy,

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Mark Hitchcock is one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet and he's working on his dissertation against, he was then against gentries before Jerusalem fell, it's still, you can get it it's still out so I asked him

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I said Matthew 24 here is fulfilled he goes yes he goes scholars, they understand you can't divorce 1

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Thessalonians 4 from Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15 that just can't be done and scholars don't do that that's why they have this imminency problems and that Paul expected 1

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Thessalonians 4 to take place in his lifetime just like Jesus did, it just didn't happen but they would never separate it, well the partial preterist does he does, so he's got all 24 fulfilled, some of them go as far as 25, gentry doesn't go that far gentry doesn't go as far as the end of the age either, he won't give you that one second

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Peter 3 he won't give to you, Romans 8 Philippians 3, 1 Corinthians 15 obviously, 1

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Thessalonians 4 and then he has a division in Matthew 24 because he understands if you surrender all of that as some of our partial preterists

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I think that people like Mike Sullivan will just eat your lunch see that's where I stepped in,

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I thought heck if all this is fulfilled second Peter 3 is fulfilled I'll just take a couple more steps and I'm in full preterism and so because the timing demands the nature of the fulfillment

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I understand that the language is bodily and self -same body and you can get all that out of that but the timing 1870

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AD so demands the end point of fulfillment that I am forced to redefine resurrection and body and because we were forced into it because that timing demands what you said, timing demands nature,

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I'm forced into that so are there ways out around, well yeah, corporate body, spiritual body get a button to get it

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Gary DeMar believes that when we die we get a new body in heaven at the point of death and oh that Calvin that one in his institutes that's an old belief that he destroys, he just goes, he destroys that idea because if that's the case then

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I'm getting a body in heaven that never experienced the death in Christ there's a what you said, there's a disconnect and for biblical scholars who may not believe in this stuff but at least they're trying to understand what the language is saying they understand that that divorce is impossible for Paul he's

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Jewish Jewish exegesis is loud and clear one guy here that I'm going to be talking to that see we've got just,

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I don't want to get started just dualism we have to get rid of dualism, this Greek idea of dualism.

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Have you read Ken Gentry's book, Have We Missed the Second Coming? No We have it and he articulates a healthy partial preterist view and how he deals with Ken Gentry does, so I highly recommend that book especially how he analyzes the

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Olivet Discourse with how some have pointed out maybe there's two questions being asked to Jesus and he answers it in a two -fold manner and so I'm just saying

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Ken Gentry, that book Have We Missed the Second Coming? is a good resource on trying to say like partial preterism is the historic preterist paradigm, they've just had to qualify what they mean because hyper preterism has come to town and you have to distinguish because you want to avoid this age being this

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Jewish age that terminated in 7 AD Dr. Frost reminded me is this age is this evil perishing age being contrasted with the eternal age that is to come now there's this already not yet paradigm that we live

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Hebrew says that we've tasted the age to come Where's the Greek gentleman

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I met good languages so I read a lot, yeah there he is so yeah you can back me up then so I read a lot of you do point

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A and you do your stuff then you start reading classical Greek like Attic Greek, Aeonic Greek and Aristotle and things like that.

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One thing that I found is this present age or the now age or the now time that's very commonly used, that was a common way of just saying at the present it's not a technical present, it just means present presently, at present now, like now like now so it's

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Paul's just saying in the now, well what's the now the present defined as, well evil it's defined it's evil powers, the present

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Galatians 1, 3, the present evil age or that's actually a little bit more emphatic there the present age of evil it's defined by evil that's that's not a no that's pretty easy to understand

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I mean you just walk outside you're confronted with evil it's all over the place, it's everywhere and the groaning then becomes related to that, my view has so changed because the church doesn't we need to emphasize emphasize this more of how much evil is and then you hear that psalmist groaning and saying

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God how long are you going to put up with the blasphemy they're spitting in your face, they're mocking you they're, how long can you put up with this do something about it wake up, one psalm says wake up from your sleep he's got it, you see where you have to say patience learn patience

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I've had patience, God says I've had patience with you have patience with them

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I'm making you like me be an imitator but I don't like that I want it now

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I want justice now it'll come see one one teacher said he said every every molestation of the church, every form of pornography, every evil, it will all be rectified by God in that day to the full satisfaction of the righteousness of God and in sight of God's people to where we will say yes justice has been served wickedness and the wicked ones have received their just punishment hallelujah and you see this in Revelation where the chorus breaks out you are just in these judgments, oh

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God you are holy in these judgments for bringing judgment but right, that's not yet I can't call for that right now

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I gotta love my enemies less than to persecute you we have time for one more question if no one else is up I got a question we got one so two more questions

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Foskey was talking about partial terrorism and I've been looking at it,

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I'm trying to resent how does that look the idealistic view of the interpretation of GK Beale's view, is that a good standard to push through I love

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Greg Beale's work I think he's he's good he gets it, you know he's not trying to really push any he's just letting that, look you read

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Revelation and it's it's I don't there's a burp in the middle there of Revelation 10 and it really is about the whole book, so it's so typical of literature at that time in the middle, what

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Christians have been told, the riddle in the middle you always go to the middle of the book and in that it's the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet will sound and the mystery of God will be completed as proclaimed by the prophets and so if that's the case, if the mystery of God and then the seventh bowl is the wrath of God will be finished, so at these last instances the mystery of God so what's before the mystery of God if the mystery of God will be completed then then what am

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I in right now? Mystery, so I don't there's a lot of mystery,

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I don't know what God is up I'm like the psalmist, I've grown I want justice now God, the guy's guilty, kill him now, kill him like Jeremiah said, kill them all just do it, and then

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God says are you sure Jeremiah, you know what you're asking for are you sure you want that so this mystery, this tolerance of God for the blasphemies of beastly

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I'm more idealist you know I follow the long bill beastly, great city megalopolis, that's

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Greek just megalopolis is this look at all our cities, look at all the cities cities cities are a powerful symbol, especially in Greek and Homeric letter, it's very very powerful we miss that, but we don't really because our cities are cities are good representatives

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Adam, we have a six hour car ride together so we'll talk about that later I just wanted to show

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I just wanted to point out it's basically the obvious right, of how dangerous full pletorism is and I want to uniquely show it in something that the church adores, and we have since its conception and that's the

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Lord's Supper okay so Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 11 verse 26 it says this, for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the

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Lord's death until he comes if Christ has come 70

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AD if this is saying we no longer have to partake in the

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Lord's Supper is this what full pletorism is saying okay so when

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I was asking a lot of these same questions, I got a random phone call from Mike Sullivan who you spoke with at conferences, co -wrote a book with I spoke with him as well you know, because I asked the same question,

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I said, because I was playing real nice, I was just taking notes you know what I mean, and he said, or I asked him what do you do about do these things, you know, take the

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Lord's Supper until he comes, now he told me two things, he said, well one objection is

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Paul tells Timothy, proclaim the gospel until Paul comes and visits him, so that doesn't mean you stop preaching the gospel, and I said, okay, but is that what you really think he's talking about and then

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Sullivan specifically said no, I don't think we should take the Lord's Supper anymore, Sullivan continues to say, baptism is not for the church anymore that was a spirit baptism only, and so some of those words, we see water and now actually, you know, how can we forbid them to be baptized in water well that's a textual variant, or water there is not talking about the physical water, so my point is, the sacraments, the ordinances that are given to the church they're being fully attacked by full priesthood yep, that's it alright

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I have one really short question, sorry guys so, would the conclusion of full preterism be that essentially, if you're out there preaching this stuff, that you're essentially dismissing or relieving people of their obligations and duties to the service of Christ today, is that what ultimately comes down to then?

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It's all done, 70 AD it's over, it's been filled Philemon Josephus 70

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AD, 70 AD, that's what we say all the time, but that's why the Israel only, a lot of full preterists are universalists, because the plan of redemption is already done away with and so that's why it ultimately leads to atheism or agnosticism because this really, this is,

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I no longer have a world view to account for the evil and sin around me because we're living past post -reductive history.

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There's three things that they're doing, the one is what Jason Bradfield and I were doing when we had

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Christ's covenant church, one of the few full preterist churches, and again you remember I said I wanted to bridge that gap between church history and full preterism and enhance the church that's the whole point of what we thought we were doing is this enhances the church makes the church even better so that's what

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Gary DeMars is trying to do now but I pointed out to Gary but he won't listen to but I said, what we were doing in 2008, using

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John Murray's Redemption Accomplishment Applied, I said that was the model, you're doing exactly what we were doing, it doesn't work the other view is

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Max King who jettisoned off the whole Bible, the whole thing and went universal and he's got a big movement,

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Max King his son Doug King leads that, that's Living Presence and they're interacting with Ken Wilber of Enterable Theology, if you're familiar with who

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Ken Wilber is, but they're very much involved in this eternal consciousness of man that's evolving in God, it gets quite bizarre, and then the other factor the third view is just an agnostic atheism and I'm seeing all three going on, that's what's so frustrating about Gary DeMars because it's like we've been down that road, it just doesn't, you can't play church after the church has been perfected because the traditional view doesn't run into that problem because in the new heavens and new earth there won't be denominations, there's not going to be pastors and teachers, there's not going to be any of that we will all know the

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Lord and our state of existence won't need I'm not going to argue about Bible translations in the new heavens and new earth it's not going to happen, so you can see that disconnect with the what now, what we call the what now question post 70

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AD and that's what's destroying, would you say in your short involvement with it it's that what now question that's what's, it's imploding from the inside because some people are just saying church is pointless, it's useless totally useless.

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One absurdity we've talked about is you've got to think, there's no more spiritual warfare, what

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Paul was saying in Ephesians 6 putting on the whole armor of God well that was first century before 70

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AD so Satan if the full predators say that Satan is a fallen angel well he's already thrown into the lake of fire and yet you've ran into guys like.

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Don Preston says that Satan in the lake of fire is apostate Judaism in 70 AD. So these are the absurdities that full predators did and it's that kind of that was, now

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I didn't go that route, see I was still Satan most literally Satan that's where my church upbringing thank goodness

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I had a bachelor of theology and I had good men in my life, yes I wandered into full preterism, but those seeds were buried some buried deep that just said come back here you're not, and I thought boy,

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I really wandered off in my own ego and head and then you go to conferences, I'm being invited to all these conferences, books are selling so yeah,

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I'm important you know and I'm young so I'm like yeah, yeah

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I am I am important I'm important your ego, pride it's all of that stuff it came so fast after my first book came out,

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Misplaced Hope the next thing I know I'm going to John Anderson's conferences and I'm speaking with all these people

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I got invited to Evangelical Theological Society conference to speak there I was like, oh

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I'm loved this is great, so you just don't think about it thank God for godly men in my life like Kenneth Palbert, he said

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I love you Sam you're a heretic, but I love you he would then take me out but he would always say, but you're a heretic and I'm praying for you and I love you but you're a heretic you are a heretic not knowing but anyway and this guy, thank