October 17, 2017 Show with Jody Killingsworth of the Christian Band & Music Ministry “My Soul Among Lions” PLUS Mark Chanski on “Greet One Another With a Holy Kiss: An Examination of Brotherly Affection”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the 17th day of October 2017.

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I'm delighted to have two returning guests on the program today. For the first hour, we're going to have

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Jody Killingsworth of the Christian Band and Music Ministry, My Soul Among Lions joining us.

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He's going to be discussing a special Psalms project that he is involved in.

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We'll also be playing a little bit of the music of My Soul Among Lions, who has truly become one of my very favorite

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Christian recording groups. I mean that. I'm not just saying that because he's on the program today.

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I fell in love with them a number of years ago when someone posted one of their songs on YouTube.

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After further investigation, I eventually wound up inviting Jody to be on the program and also met

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Tim Bailey, who is an author that I've had on the program a couple of times, through that initial introduction to My Soul Among Lions.

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The second hour, we're going to be joined by Pastor Mark Chansky, who is an author and he is also serving as an undershepherd there at Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan.

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He's also a teacher of hermeneutics for the Reform Baptist Seminary in Easley, South Carolina, and he's going to be discussing the second hour,

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Greet One Another with a Holy Kiss, an Examination of Brotherly Affection. But first of all, let me introduce my first guest for the first hour,

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Jody Killingsworth. It's great to have you back on Iron Trepans Iron Radio. It's good to be here, Chris.

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Thanks for having me on the show. And in studio with me is my co -host, the Rev. Buzz Taylor. And hello. It's good to be here again.

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If anybody would like to join us with a question related to Christian music for the first hour, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. And before I play some of your music, I wanted to have you, even though you've been on the program before, it's been some time, and we seemingly are getting new listeners every single day here on Iron Trepans Iron Radio.

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Why don't you tell our listeners something about My Soul Among Lions, how this group initially formed, and what is unique about My Soul Among Lions?

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Okay. Well, we are made up of musicians who serve in a local church in Bloomington, Indiana.

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We serve at Clear Note Church in Bloomington. The Lord brought us each year to study music at Jacobs School of Music at Indiana University.

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That's what brought us to town. We got plugged all into this church independently of one another, and started working together in the music ministry here.

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And we're given a lot of headroom to try things and make mistakes, which

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I think is what the Lord has used to allow us to wind up where we are today.

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I think the commitment of the elders to allow young men to—they have to be good young men, men that you can trust, but they're young, and they're going to make mistakes.

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You have to, I think, give them the room to do that, give them their head, to use horse terminology.

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Otherwise, they're never going to learn to lead, and they're never going to learn the lessons that they need.

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So that's the church that we serve. They had that vision for us, and they gave us freedom to work.

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And the Lord led us through—we came apart early on with the hymn revitalization movement, and then found our way to this

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Book of Psalms. And through reading of history, we realized that the Book of Psalms had, through the centuries of the

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Church, been essential, really, the bulk of what was sung by the people of God until the last several hundred years, and it's largely been abandoned.

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It's preserved here and there in small pockets, but on the whole, it's largely been abandoned.

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We want to be a part of bringing it back to the Church. So our vision for this project is to versify all 150 psalms we're singing in a vernacular, common folk style.

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We began about three years ago with the release of Psalms 1 through 10. We're working chronologically through this altar, tackling about 10 psalms a year, sometimes with multiple versions of those psalms.

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And that's the pace we're on, that's the vision we have. Great. And obviously, your name comes from Psalm 57, verse 4,

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My soul is among lions. I must lie among those who breathe forth fire, even the sons of men whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.

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Quite a fascinating name, and I really love the name, by the way. Well, it's a common theme throughout the

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Psalms, and David was the man who was often in trouble, particularly in his younger days, and I think that's why his prayers are so helpful, is because they are formed, forged in the fire of persecution and trouble.

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And I think partly why we need them today is because if we're going to see the

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Church reform in ways that she needs to, we need men who are willing to engage, first of all, in trouble, get themselves in trouble, by fighting the good fight of faith, and they need the words of Scripture, particularly the words of the

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Psalms, to guide them and help them and give them the prayers that they're going to need to meet that trouble.

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Well, I think it'd be a good idea to give our audience a taste of what

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My Soul Among Lions is all about. This is from a new video, The Voice of God, and of course, since we're on radio and live streaming on the internet, our listeners cannot see the video, but are these two young ladies your daughters?

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Yeah, they are, Paloma and Olivette are their names. Well, they're quite lovely young ladies, and this is

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Jodi Killingsworth of My Soul Among Lions, and the song is

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The Voice of God from Psalm 29. The voice of the mighty, lift praises up to him, come to his altar in holy.

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The voice of God is a thing of wonder. It's full of splendor and power.

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It makes the heavens resound like thunder. Causes nature to flower.

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The voice of God shakes the wild back country.

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It causes kingdoms to dance. It makes the land flow with milk and honey.

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It's creation romance. Give to the

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Lord all the glory that's due him. Give him the honor and glory today.

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Sons of the mighty, lift praises up to him. Come to his altar in holy array.

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The voice of God sits upon the waters.

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He ruled his king at the flood. He spoke a word and the nations tottered.

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They were buried in mud. The voice of God breaks the trees in pieces.

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It strips the forest bare. High in his temple no creature is speechless.

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All cry glory up there. Give to the

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Lord all the glory that's due him. Give him the honor and glory today.

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Sons of the mighty, lift praises up to him. Come to his altar in holy array.

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Give to the Lord all the glory that's due him.

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Give him the honor and glory today. Sons of the mighty, lift praises up to him.

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Come to his altar in holy array. Give to the

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Lord all the glory that's due him. Give him the honor and glory today.

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Sons of the mighty, lift praises up to him. Come to his altar in holy array.

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Amen. And how old are your daughters? I'm sorry if I missed that. Paloma, the oldest, is nine, and Olivette is eight.

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It's quite a blessing to see a dad with his two daughters singing praises to the

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Lord together, especially when those daughters look like they are truly loving doing that, not just doing that out of coercion or something.

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Sometimes you see kids up on a stage at church looking like they're bored out of their minds and they wish they could be anywhere else but up there, but these girls were having a good time with you.

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And now tell us more about the Psalm Project. Okay, well, this is the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther's momentous act of nailing the 95

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CCs on the door of the Wittenberg Castle Church, as you know, and that sparked the

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Protestant Reformation, and that brought about all kinds of wonderful changes for the

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Church. Really, I think what it comes down to is a conflict between two different views of the

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Church, one a professionalized view or a sacerdotal priestly organization of the

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Church versus a universal priesthood of the Church, where the people of God are priests of God and meant to participate fully and in some real sense equally in God's worship.

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And during the time of the Reformation, it was organized very differently, where the priests and the professionals, as it were, performed the work of worship on behalf of the people.

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They came and largely observed and were supposed to receive,

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I guess by osmosis, what God had for them there. They didn't understand what was happening, what was being said, and they had very little to do in terms of participation.

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And the Reformers said, no, the people should be participating.

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They should first of all understand what's being read and said, and they should also sing.

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And so the Reformation brought back and also reinvented, as we did that, the lost practice of congregational singing, which we enjoy very much today.

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It's so much a part of our worship today that we can use those terms, worship and singing, synonymously.

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But while we carry on and form the practice of the

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Reformers, that is, we sing today in church and are committed to doing so, the content of our songs varies dramatically from what they sung 500 years ago.

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They very self -consciously turn to God's Word for the content of their songs in a way that we don't as much anymore.

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They turn to the Book of Psalms especially. I was even just reading a little bit about Luther today and came across a letter that he wrote to a

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German poet where he called that poet to give himself to the work of versifying the

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Psalms so that the people of God could sing them. And it's really sweet to see, and there are these wonderful anecdotes and letters and other documents from the time of the

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Reformation where people were rediscovering the work of singing in the congregation, and they just were writing to their friends in other cities saying, this is just wonderful, you wouldn't believe it, the people are actually singing

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God's praise together. It's just delightful. But what they were singing was the Book of Psalms.

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And so what's happened in the last several hundred years is we have largely abandoned the work of singing the

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Psalms in favor of singing the devotional poems of uninspired writers.

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I don't have any problem with continuing to sing hymns that are based on Scripture or just devotional thoughts about God as long as they're consistent with Scripture.

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I don't have any problem with that. What I do have a problem with is our abandonment of the Psalter, because those are inspired by God, and I think if we untether ourselves from God's Word at that very important point, the devotional life of the

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Church, we are doomed to wander away from Him in our devotion and fail to honor

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Him as we should. So what we've been doing is we've been working to reclaim the lost art of psalm singing.

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And to have you clarify, you're not an exclusive psalm singer as some of our brethren are in the

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Church of Scotland and the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, and I'm sure that there are others.

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In fact, yes, the Heritage Reformed Churches, Joel Beeke is involved in, and I'm sure there are even more that are exclusive psalmody adherents, but you are not exclusive psalmody.

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You just think that they're important to be included in the worship. Well, I think more than important to be included,

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I think they have to remain the standard by which we judge everything that we offer to the

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Lord of praise and prayer. Because there they are, they're inspired by the Holy Spirit, and they speak so clearly of Jesus Christ the

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Messiah, He owned them as His own words. The Church throughout history has done so. And insofar as we have abandoned them,

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I think we are in great danger, and certainly out of conformity with the

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Church throughout time. So I think that while I'm perfectly happy with us singing songs around the psalter,

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I think that all that we do has to be judged by it. Well, you'll be happy to know that the church where I'm a member,

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Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, although we sing hymns, we do have a psalter in every pew.

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Oh, good. Or should I say many psalters in every pew, because a pew's rather long. But we do sing the psalms as well.

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And what you just said reminds me of the fact that one of the reasons that I am not an exclusive psalm singer is because of the fact that if you were going to take that conviction to its logical conclusion, your pastor should ascend into the pulpit and just read the

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Bible. He shouldn't be preaching with his own words. But also, to bolster what you have said, the preaching of the word, even though it uses uninspired language, it would be ridiculous for a

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Bible -believing pastor, somebody who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture and who believes that it is actually

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God -breathed, it would be bizarre for him to ascend into his pulpit and not read the

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Scripture at all. Yeah. Which I'm sure that's going on in multitudes of pulpits, tragically, all over the world.

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Yeah, it is. Well, I'm going to also give another taste of your music to our listeners that you've provided.

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And this is Forsaken Me from Psalm 22. Anything further that you care to mention?

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Yeah, well, there's so many psalms in this set of ten that we're currently working on.

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Psalm 22 is one of them that we are so excited about. What I'm excited about Psalm 22 for is that if there was ever any doubt that the

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Old Testament is related and one with the New Testament, if there's ever any doubt that the psalms speak clearly and prophetically and accurately about Jesus Christ, this puts those concerns to rest, because it speaks in detail, amazing detail, about the sufferings that our

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Lord underwent on the cross, and also he quoted the opening lines of this psalm to confirm that for us just moments before he died,

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My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Well, here's Forsaken by My Soul Among Lions.

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I hope that you are blessed. My God, my

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God, why have you forsaken me? Far from my deliverer is my prayer.

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All day long I cry, but you don't answer me. In the night

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I groan, but you're not there. Holy One, enthroned upon your people's praise,

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You've always been our Father's trust. They would cry for help to you in troubled days,

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And you'd rise and raise them from the dust. Now I know that I'm a worm and not a man.

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Those who pass by me, even now my friends dismiss me out of hand.

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I've become a fool to be despised. None can look upon me but to scoff and sneer.

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Cursing through their teeth I hear them say, He who trusts in God, let his

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God interfere. Let us see him love his

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Son today. You it was who brought me from my mother's womb,

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Made me trust in you upon her breast. Was it only so that I'd go in the tomb,

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And God I hope that I can pass the test. Oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh -oh.

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Be not far from me my Lord, can't you hear the lion?

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Compassion's bulls stand all around, I'm poured like water out on them.

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I'm out of joint, I'm short of breath My mouth can't taste the dust of death

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My heart's like wax, my body's meat They've pierced me through my hands and feet

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And for my clothes they roll the dice My God, my God, I've paid the price

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A bruised and broken pot of clay I need you, Lord, do not delay

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Will I live to see another day? I'll tell your name to my brethren

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When we are met in your house once again

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Heaven, let Israel stand Broken, I'll pay the vow

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Broken, before the day when I stood in his place

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He feels the poor are contented Let's meet anew, man -tenacious to you

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Nations, go tell the poor Tell their princes and their kings

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Tell to the children of our future generations He is

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God and he has done amazing things Nations, go tell the poor

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Tell their princes and their kings Tell to the children of our future generations

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He is God and he has done amazing things Nations, go tell the poor

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Tell their princes and their kings Tell to the children of our future generations

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He is God and he has done amazing things Let's tell the children of our future generations

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He is God and he has done amazing things He is God and he has done amazing things

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the first hour is

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Jody Killingsworth of the Christian band and music ministry My Soul Among Lions. Coming up in our second hour will be

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Pastor Mark Chansky of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan who's going to be discussing

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Greet One Another With a Holy Kiss An Examination of Brotherly Affection. But right now, if you'd like to ask

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Jody Killingsworth a question our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

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That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com And give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. We do have a question from RJ in White Plains, New York.

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And RJ wants to know How do you prevent a group of very talented musicians and singers and songwriters from being guilty of performing in a manner that could be considered vain worship?

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I'm not saying at all that you are doing that. I'm just saying, how do you keep the reins on what you're doing to prevent that?

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Well, I think it takes the exercise of the well, the scriptures

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Paul teaches Timothy to admonish and rebuke and exhort with all patience but to admonish, rebuke, and exhort.

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And I think that the pastors who are over a group need to exercise that regularly in the lives of the members of the group.

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Otherwise, they will give in to the pride and vanity that is so dangerous to them in the work that they do.

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They stand in front of people and they lead them. And a lot of attention and interest and applause comes their way.

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Unless they're being humbled regularly by the pastors and elders and the other brothers in their life, then they,

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I'm afraid, will very easily slip into that. We have the blessing in our church of being under authority and having regular involvement in pastoral care in our lives.

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And we've come to know that that is essential to our survival as artists.

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Unfortunately, there's a lot of groups out there who are not tied to the church. They live off the church.

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They tour around the churches and minister in churches, but are not regularly members of a church where they can receive that kind of care and shepherding.

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And that is to put their feet in a very slippery place. So we feel very fortunate, very blessed to be under that kind of care and protection ourselves.

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Because I think the risks are very real and very dangerous. Yeah, I think that churches and especially the pastors of churches should be very leery and do some investigation about musical groups or even evangelists that they were, that they invite to their congregation.

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I should say they should be investigating before they invite either musicians, singers or evangelists before they invite them.

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They should be checking up on them because there are both traveling evangelists and musicians and bands that are like mavericks.

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They're like lone wolves who are an authority unto themselves and who view themselves as being somehow over the church.

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Like they are looking upon themselves as some kind of a wonderful gift to the churches that they are visiting.

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And they, I think, sometimes think that they are there to correct the church and things that the church is missing, and yet they are under no oversight themselves.

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Yeah, we talk about Lone Ranger Christians tongue -in -cheek because the

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New Testament just does not have a category for that. It's so clear that authority is the norm for Christians.

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They are to be under authority, submitted to real men who really know them and who really speak into their lives.

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And I think without that, anybody in any profession, in any condition is prone to wonder and is going to fall away from the

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Lord, one way or another. In fact, you don't even have to be a traveling singer, musician, or band.

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There are choirs and groups, praise bands, within churches that act as if they are a church unto themselves.

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Yeah. Choirs are a very powerful force in a church.

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Yes. Because they know that unfortunately, and I'm sure even you as a musician would say, unfortunately, there are people who will pick a church just because the music might be superior to the music in other churches surrounding them.

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And they really put what the church believes and teaches on a lower rung of importance.

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So, many of the larger churches, especially those that are involved in the seeker -sensitive kind of movement, are meticulous about the musicians and singers they have, treating them almost as if they are just like a professional form of entertainment, because they know it will be a draw, and sometimes this very thing goes to the head of those involved in the music ministry.

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In fact, I can remember a friend of mine who is pastoring a church, and I can't help but chuckle even though it's kind of sad, he, in the morning worship, the choir would sing, and then when the choir sang and finished singing and exited the podium there, or the platform, he would ascend into the pulpit, and as he was beginning his message, he would hear the choir members in the parking lot talking about where they wanted to eat, and then hear cars driving away, because the choir was there just to do their thing, and then leave!

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And he was a new pastor, and he was like in a state of frustration over this, because he was finding it difficult to exercise authority in certain areas like that.

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But I want to play another song, and then we're going to have you talk about the Kickstarter. This is another song that I have on file here for my solo,

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Among Lions. I hope you enjoy it! ...

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my son just ask me and I will give the nations of the earth for you to rule them with a mighty iron rod for you to dash them all to pieces and then pound them into dirt until you spread your fame and power and love abroad till all the nations bow before the

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Son of God amen that's from Psalm 2 and that is a powerful song in fact

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Jody that is the very first of my soul among lions song that I heard that's what

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I was talking about earlier in fact I think I heard about that when somebody posted it right after the horrific

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Supreme Court decision to legalize same -sex marriage yeah that's right and that's really the song that helped launch this project we had been thinking we needed to do this work we had more or less privately been working on how we were going to go about it and we had this one written and recorded in a demo form really rough we'd shown one or two people outside our little group and so another pastor on staff knew about it and then that ruling came down and our church other churches

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Christians all across this country were shell -shocked by that and we're in a state of mourning and fear and this pastor on staff even

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Baker who knew about the existence of this song he came up he said you guys just need to get that up online as quick as you can and so we we hurriedly recorded it just a little bit better quality in our church sanctuary got it up online and thought it we needed to have a name to publish under so we scrambled and found my full -blown lions the name got it up online and got such a response that we felt we just need to move ahead and we launched a

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Kickstarter project to try to fund the production of the first ten songs and that the word blessed that we were able to do it we followed up the second year with the same approach with the

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Kickstarter project to fund another ten songs we did that and now we're back with our third volume and we're right in the middle of Kickstarter project that's live now at 14 days remaining we're 52 percent funded so we are just halfway through the 30 days of funding of the campaign we're 52 percent funded of about a hundred and twenty two backers who have pulled together to bring us to that point and we want to see the

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Lord allow us to complete this set of ten psalms because there are some wonderful psalms in this set psalm 23 alone is my shepherd beautiful psalm and I think that the song that the

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Lord has given us based on that psalm it's really very encouraging and comforting to the thing so we want to be able to get it out there psalm 22 which you heard my god my god why have you mistaken the

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Lord is my light my salvation and also has that wonderful section that one thing that I ask that I may dwell in the house of the

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Lord all days my life this beautiful stuff amen and so tell our listeners exactly step by step what they are to do to help out with this

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Kickstarter okay well if you've liked what you've heard today you can go to my soul among lions dot -com my soul among lions dot -com that's our website from there you can find a lot about us but very near the top is a little widget

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I think they call it with the kick our information there it'll link you to the

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Kickstarter campaign that we're running it'll tell you where we're at in the funding cycle so there's a very prominent link to our

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Kickstarter click on that don't watch our Kickstarter video our pitch see what we're up to and what we're about and consider donating through the

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Kickstarter to help us fund this new album praise

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God in exchange in exchange for donating at any level I should mention it would get an immediate free download of psalm 22 forsaken me which we heard earlier on the broadcast and I strongly advise our listeners to go to the website to hear the music because I don't know how

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I don't know if it's going to be the the clarity that you're hearing during this program is going to be the same since you're hearing this through a live streamed talk show so I'm not a hundred percent sure if the clarity will be equal to that that you will hear on the my soul among lions website so it's my soul among lions calm yep okay because I see a different website also my soul among lions dot band camp calm well that is where you can go if you're interested in purchasing our former volume but if you're interested in helping us out move forward helping us move forward the project and to help fund volume 3 which is our current project go to my soul among lions calm click on the

45:31

Kickstarter link in the top probably the top left corner of the page and that will take you to Kickstarter and it's pretty self -explanatory from there you can one of we have a number of reward levels to consider and one of the options is to purchase our previous volumes of songs and the new volume when it comes out so that you really can just go to Kickstarter if you want to help us across the board great and the first song that we played today were you and your daughters were sitting in a field our listeners should know that that was not a studio recording that was

46:13

I'm assuming that you were actually out there in the field with your two daughters that wasn't unless you were superimposed over over a backdrop yeah that was a field behind my house and one beautiful evening we went out there and turned on the camera and sang it yeah so that was indeed beautiful and the other songs that we sang were studio recordings obviously and what do you will actually let me go to a listener question right here first sure we have

46:50

Christian in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who says do you think that one of the beauties of using the

46:59

Psalms is that the Psalms address nearly every kind of state of mind that a believer is going through they are not all about joy and smiles and uplifting words and music some of them also address the deepest darkest moments of our life there is a multitude of different types of moods and scenarios that are involved behind the

47:29

Psalms so therefore they reflect a full range of human emotion when we praise

47:34

God I think that's exactly right we have a saying here in our church shorthand for a lot of things but it we say get real or be real we say that because we want to encourage people to not live their life through social media but we also say it because we want us to not be superficial in general in our approach to ourselves to sin to one another to suffering trials we want to just be real no hypocrisy no veneer just be real the

48:08

Psalms help us be real because like you like the listener said

48:14

Christian thank you for that comment you said that they run the whole gamut of human emotion well if you judged what is commonly sung in churches today you get only that mostly you get the happy stuff you get positive feelings it's it's you get sentiments that are in the

48:38

Psalms but they're one -sided one -dimensional the Psalter and the psalmist is more holistic in his approach to to his devotion he brings everything that he's suffering everything that he's feeling everything is granting to the

48:57

Lord and he does that in a godly way and so we don't lack a free really in the church we have lots of suffering what we what we do lack is an ability to talk about it to acknowledge it and to be real and I think singing

49:15

Psalm 6, Psalm 6 is a wonderful example of this oh Lord do not rebuke me in your anger or chasten me in your wrath be gracious to me

49:22

I'm pining away well if I go to the grave will the dead praise you this this is real and people do feel these things and experience these things but we need to give them the outlet that the scriptures gives them and we also need to learn how to weep and mourn with those who are suffering and so even if we're not personally experiencing the feelings of Psalm 6 and can't this moment relate to it somebody next to us in the pew can and we need to comfort them with those words well before we exit from our interview

50:02

Jody please summarize in about a minute what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

50:08

I want the church to embrace the psalm I want us to learn from God himself from the

50:15

Holy Spirit I'm saying that he inspired how to relate to God as we should the

50:22

Psalms are filled with things that we would not in earlier years think that we could say to the Lord but they're there and they're there in their rawness they're there in their edginess but they're there in godliness and we need to learn from it so I want the church to embrace the psalm in amen well

50:44

I'm going to exit with another song of or by my soul among lions and once again the website is my soul among lions comm correct that's right my soul among lions calm thank you very much

51:00

Jody for being on the program today and I look forward to your return to iron sharpens iron radio in the near future see how my foes increase see them rising up against me they rob my soul of peace and say there is no help in God but you

51:38

Oh you are my she you live my head

51:50

I'm as safe with you out on the field as in my bed you keep my life concealed you are my

53:55

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56:56

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

57:04

I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man

57:11

I would not be a servant of Christ hi I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church we are a reformed

57:17

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 we are in Norfolk Massachusetts we strive to reflect

57:25

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the

57:35

Apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if you live near Norfolk Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

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and mention the 50 % off sale that they are having and always remember to tell all of our advertisers if you contact them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before we return to the program coming up is our second guest of the day

01:05:01

Mark Chansky author and pastor of the Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland Michigan who's going to be discussing greet one another with a holy kiss an examination of brotherly affection before we go to Pastor Mark we just have a couple of important announcements to make in regard to special events the first one is coming up next

01:05:21

Thursday October 26th from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. right here in Carlisle Pennsylvania at the

01:05:29

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall this is the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Reformation Day pastors luncheon it's absolutely free of charge if you are a man in ministry whether it is a pastoral position whether you are an elder and I happen to believe a pastor and elder or the same thing but I know that some churches differentiate those two offices whether you're a deacon whether you are a parachurch leader please register for this free event by going to or sending an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:06:05

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put pastors luncheon in the subject line my guest speaker that day will be the

01:06:12

Reverend William Shishko retired pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square Long Island New York and he is currently the regional home missionary for Reformation Metro New York he's also an adjunct faculty member at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor South Carolina he's been a dear friend of mine since the 1980s one of the first pastors other than my own that I developed a friendship with very soon after becoming a born -again

01:06:40

Christian and we have maintained a friendship all these years since the mid -1980s and I'm so glad that the pastor

01:06:47

Bill is coming out to do this to speak at this luncheon his theme is going to be restoring

01:06:55

Reformation passion that's Thursday October 26th 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

01:07:00

and also we have a guest of honor Steve Bloom who is Pennsylvania State Representative he's also a candidate for Congress and he is a born -again

01:07:09

Christian who really has his faith in the forefront of his life as a politician he is not somebody who just tries to appease

01:07:20

Christians to to receive votes from them and is really disingenuous in his public personal or should

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I say public Christian persona he is the real deal Steve Bloom and I always enjoy having him on the program when he has the time to be interviewed but that's

01:07:39

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01:07:44

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01:07:54

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01:08:00

Thursday October 26th coming up after that is the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals event the

01:08:07

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01:08:23

Reformation hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress speakers include Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant if you'd like to register go to Alliance net org

01:08:34

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01:08:52

Spanish -speaking edition of the conference the 18th through the 20th is the English edition of the conference speak at featuring speakers such as Stephen Lawson Votie Balcom Phil Johnson Keith Getty HB Charles jr.

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01:11:19

and that's also the email address to send in a question to pastor Mark Chansky of Harbor Reformed Baptist Church of Holland Michigan he's also a teacher of hermeneutics for the

01:11:30

Reformed Baptist Seminary of Easley South Carolina and we are addressing during this last hour of the program greet one another with a holy kiss an examination of brotherly affection obviously taken from Romans 1616 and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio pastor

01:11:49

Mark Chansky well it's always great to have you on the program and in studio with me is my co -host the

01:12:01

Reverend buzz Taylor yes I am here hello believe me if you were here you wouldn't want to before we before we do that tell our listeners something about the

01:12:28

Harbor Reformed Baptist Church of Holland Michigan well we planted the church back in 1993

01:12:34

I used to be a pastor in Grand Rapids we had planted a number of churches there from Grand Rapids like off in Minneapolis Minnesota Louisville Kentucky off in Lethbridge Alberta and then we thought maybe we should plant a church nearby so 45 minutes off to the west from Grand Rapids on the lake shore in Michigan we had a people who were driving into Grand Rapids from there so we had about 1112 families that was the seed the core of God's finest and so I went out from the

01:13:10

Grand Rapids church and we started 93 and the Lord has been kind and gracious and well it's so 17 now so 24 years as a church out here and we've sensed the wind of heaven thorns and thistles to be sure but the

01:13:25

Lord has been our supporter and he's been our Good Shepherd out here well praise God and we will give you the contact information for that church before the end of the program but as I mentioned just before Romans 16 verse 16 says a greet one another with a holy kiss all the churches of Christ greet you if you could let us know something about the context of that verse and why you think it's an important subject for us to discuss today well obviously it's the finale the

01:13:59

Apostle is giving final words to the church in Rome and he tells them to greet each other with a holy kiss but I suppose the even bigger context is really the entirety of Paul's epistles

01:14:11

Paul not just one time but four times gives this call to the holy kiss he calls it in Romans 16 16 greet one another with a holy kiss he does it all so in 1st

01:14:25

Corinthians 16 20 greet one another with a holy kiss 2nd

01:14:31

Corinthians 13 12 greet one another with a holy kiss then 1st

01:14:37

Thessalonians 5 26 he says greet all the brethren with a holy kiss and then

01:14:43

Peter so for the fifth time in the in the epistles Peter says greet one another with a kiss of love so we know that repetition is the mother of learning and clearly the

01:14:57

Lord Jesus who is the author of all the scriptures wants his bride to be beautiful and to be godly so no less than five times he repeats this issue greet each other with the holy kiss so it's something serious it's not something humorous we laughed about it earlier but you may not be the most kissable man in the kingdom nevertheless we let we laugh and we chuckle but there is something about that element of being able to relate to each other and using the holy kiss to do it so I think we should sit up and say this isn't just something incidental

01:15:37

I think this is really something fundamental and something really important well what what is it exactly mean what

01:15:46

I mean it does a holy kiss require that someone is actually embracing a brother or sister and kissing that brother on the cheek or somewhere on the face is it does it always have to be literally that action well let's even start with that issue you talk about a brother or a sister it says in first Thessalonians 5 26 greet all the brethren with a holy kiss and I think there's a theological background to it isn't there that term

01:16:15

Adelphos which would be brother I believe it's male or female

01:16:20

I think the issue is that we are intimately related in Christ that we're made spiritual siblings that were children of God there's a there's a real spiritual brotherhood between buzz and myself

01:16:35

Romans 829 says Christ is the firstborn among many brothers so there's a family in mind here

01:16:45

God is our father Christ is our elder brother and each of us are our closest relatives because in Christ we who were alienated from God you think of the vertical relationship with the

01:17:01

Heavenly Father we were we were alienated from God when our representative Adam defied you shall surely die there's a separation between us and God cast out of the garden but then the

01:17:15

Lord tipped his hand that there was going to be some kind of a strange reconciliation the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent and the

01:17:23

Lord Jesus Christ appears and that nakedness of shame that displayed the alienation between God the

01:17:30

Father and sinful man and woman we see the Lord Jesus takes that shame that nakedness on the cross and we get his righteousness in Christ so that we who were far off are able to be brought near to him once again the shame taken by Christ and in exchange there is intimacy that we have with the father this is now my beloved son with whom

01:17:56

I am well pleased well that's you and me he's our father Christ is their elder brother and then the father he hangs on us like the prodigal son gets kissed by the father the father loves us and so we who have this vertical restoration should have this horizontal expression of loving one another because we're members of the same family and and I think that I think the most profuse and the most expressive of our intimate affection salutations should in many ways be reserved for the closest relationships we have on earth which is not necessarily with our blood brothers and sisters but our spiritual brothers and sisters so if we're gonna hug even if we're gonna embrace and physically express affection it should mostly be with brothers and sisters in Christ I think that's a logical

01:18:54

Reverend Butch Taylor has something to say well I can just hear the voices of my head now saying but isn't that a cultural thing by actually using the example of the kiss wouldn't that be like today handshakes or anything like that yeah

01:19:10

I think that the cultural element is something that we should deal with because surely there will be different expressions

01:19:19

I mean look at Middle Easterners the Lord Jesus lived in Israel he lived in Palestine you you go there now there there is a use of touching that takes place there now look

01:19:31

I'm in Holland Michigan we got northern European people here who are very reserved and there's not a lot of native and spontaneous touching that goes on there they do holy air kisses right yeah

01:19:47

I think there is a cultural even a climactic element about it in the Northern Climates versus oh you know you've seen the movie

01:19:55

The Big Fat Greek Wedding and the way that there is all this touching and all this embracing that goes on that was not common for the gentleman who was from a different culture yeah

01:20:07

I think it's true we should keep that in mind but I do believe but it's very inappropriate for us to discard offhand as being just a cultural husk this idea of saying well that's for their culture think of the

01:20:24

Lord Jesus he was the perfect man and I think there can be some things about our reserve and our reticence and our and offishness and our aloofness that is on Christ like and we should bend some of our personal temperaments to conform to the

01:20:45

Lord Jesus mean think think of the Savior the way that obviously went when Judas kissed him there in the

01:20:51

Garden of Gethsemane no one thought anything of it because he was frequently kissed and he permitted himself to be kissed even we mentioned

01:21:01

Luke 15 in the Prodigal Son and the father Jesus is really the father in the parable isn't he and he kisses his son and even the

01:21:12

Lord Jesus think of how he said let the little children come to me and he took them up he touched them he he was a touching person this perfect man even in John 13 he lets

01:21:27

John the disciple whom he loved to lay in his bosom so I think there's something that we as imperfect men should learn from the perfect man in the

01:21:40

Lord Jesus in the way that he was physically affectionate I think you're right but I think the use of the lips may be debatable the idea of custom and emotive expression but I really think that a physical expression of affection is non -negotiable if we're gonna fulfill this call greet one another yeah do you think that in some ways it's really a test in some level if we if we read like in 1st

01:22:18

John chapter 4 verse 20 if someone says I love God and hates his brother he is a liar for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love

01:22:29

God whom he has not seen if we really love someone if they're not just like somebody passing by in the shopping center or in a parking lot somewhere if they are somebody that we love there there should be an instinctual response when we see them something like an embrace and a kiss on the cheek oh yeah yeah

01:22:53

I mean look look at it I mean we can talk about this more but look in the context of marriage it's strange if there's a husband and a wife and and you see them in public and they're they're standoffish and they're aloof to one another isn't that oftentimes that the physical some somewhat of a barometer of what's taking place in the in the invisible and the relational

01:23:14

I think so I have a fellow elder in our church his name is Kevin his wife is Marcy and one thing about Kevin when he meets his his his bride he always kisses her and they have a beautiful a wonderful relationship an interesting too about Kevin when

01:23:30

Kevin and I for instance we often have our big elders meetings that we have in the week at least one of our elders meetings will be when we go out walking we'll walk or run at the

01:23:42

Hope College track here in Holland and there we are in the rubberized track and Kevin's walking and I say hey

01:23:47

Kevin and I run up I run up to him and he always puts out his arms he doesn't kiss me like he kisses his wife but he gives me a full manhug embrace and I realize we live in a culture where there's homosexuality and queer behavior

01:24:04

I don't care I think sometimes oftentimes we give away some of the beautiful blessings of man -to -man

01:24:12

Christian brother relationships afraid of what onlookers might think that's a true example of homophobia we keep hearing that word tossed around by leftists and homosexual advocates but the real homophobia would be a fear that isn't even based in reality a fear that someone is going to be assuming that you're a homosexual just because you're embracing a brother in Christ or a friend and kissing that man on the cheek exactly and I think we should look to the scriptures which say greet one another holy kiss and have that be an emboldening thing that says

01:24:52

I don't care what the world thinks in fact even when you ponder the father -son relationship

01:24:59

I think that one of the best immunizations against a leaning toward homosexuality is giving a young boy who's in his family and has a relationship with his dad there should be fatherly affection expressed physically toward a son and that kind of filling his love tank in a man -to -man way

01:25:24

I think is one of the healthiest ways of building a wholesome view of sexuality instead of oftentimes these young boys yearn for fatherly affection they never got it and as a result they're vulnerable to seeking male relationship in an unwholesome way and the

01:25:45

Reverend Buzz Taylor is something else to say as you're saying this though I'm thinking if we were to try to implement this kind of a thing in our churches today well we're so far removed from that that that would be very difficult and that you know obviously

01:26:00

I think some of the first things that come to some people's minds would be for example I used to go to a church where the the girls would come to church especially dolled up you know and and I could just see some guys saying oh yeah let's start practicing the holy kiss you know well

01:26:17

I think that's a very good point but the text does say one another with a holy kiss yes and so the question is what does that well the question

01:26:25

I bring up is implementation because you do have that problem with human nature oh yes no no question about it no question about it

01:26:34

John Murray will comment on this Roman 16 Beth he says holy as opposed to erotic or ritual yeah and I think surely we may need to make sure that whatever contact would take place that it's not an occasion for lust whether it be homosexual lust or heterosexual lust it should be pure and it should be chaste and so yeah

01:26:58

I think we need to be very discreet you know there can be a ditch of what Luther's mule has gotten a lot of press recently because of the five on a pure anniversary you can fall off the right side of the mule with a cold isolation or on the left side of the mule with the carnal seduction it's got to be a holy kiss and so I you know

01:27:23

I'm not going to give a code book can't give rigid restriction by the way

01:27:31

I don't think either I think generally speaking it's good I talk about man hugs and and man -to -man

01:27:39

I can't say that therefore there should be no embrace of any kind between a man and a woman

01:27:51

I've seen it over the years where Oh two people full body embrace and so easy with the sensuality that can be there even teens teens can use this holy kiss idea and in a very indiscreet way provoke temptation

01:28:12

I think that needs to be an issue but on the other hand I think you my

01:28:17

I got a German mother -in -law she's going 86 now in Iowa and her husband is 90 now and I can remember but a couple of decades ago

01:28:29

I was at their Baptist Church in Waterloo Iowa and Helga says to Arnold go over and give a hug to mrs.

01:28:37

Edie because mrs. Edie was a widow who didn't have any affection at all and and for my older elderly father -in -law at the encouragement of his wife to go give a hug to this old widow lady because she needs some thing for physical love taking you know how psychologists will say we all need seven touches and expressions of affection today for us to be physically healthy and whole

01:29:06

I think there's something there in that that that we should in the church have an understanding and a comprehension of that we're going to our final break right now if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question for Mark Chansky on a holy kiss our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:29:26

CHR is a RN z en at gmail .com don't go away God willing we'll be right back with pastor

01:29:32

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and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line we are now back with our guest pastor

01:35:38

Mark Chansky of Hope Reform Baptist Church I'm sorry Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland Michigan and we are discussing greet one another with a holy kiss an examination of brotherly affection if you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is

01:35:54

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and pastor Chansky if someone really has a vulnerability or weakness in the area of sexual temptation

01:36:05

I'm assuming that you would tell them to refrain from that especially if it's you know somebody of the opposite sex or if somebody has a same -sex attraction struggle in their life that would be going with the

01:36:19

Brethren Christ as well I'm assuming sure I think 1st Corinthians 6 speaks of flea immorality

01:36:26

Matthew 5 speaks if your right eye offends gouge it out if your right hand offends cut it off in other words stay away a long distance from the source of temptation don't scoop fire into your lap lest your clothes be burned yes yes in that case absolutely times when we can create an unhealthy view of touching so that it cultivates a hypersensitivity communicating the idea that some others are radioactivity in touching well you think of the

01:37:08

Lord Jesus here Luke 745 Jesus is at the house of Simon and Jesus says you

01:37:15

Simon you gave me no kiss but she since the time a came in not ceased to kiss my feet so the

01:37:24

Lord Jesus didn't kick away this woman who was washing his feet with her tears and with her hair and kissing them he tolerated that kind of touching even think of the

01:37:37

Lord Jesus in Mark 1 31 Peter's mother -in -law he raises her up yes taking her by the hand but a willingness to touch and interact and then even think of John 4 the woman at the well and the

01:37:54

Lord Jesus interacting with her I think frankly there's probably something wholesome with let's say there's a young fella in our church named

01:38:03

Caleb and let's say he grows up and he understands that his

01:38:10

Sunday school class mrs. Katrina embraces him often and frequently and there's something wholesome and something loving about touch that takes place and there can be a not just a arm's -length distance sometimes that can be

01:38:29

I think overly counterproductive we have a listener in Perry County Pennsylvania Arnie who says do you think it is wrong for people to constantly give their ethnicity as an excuse as to why they do not involve themselves in these kinds of affectionate embraces you know that reminds me

01:38:52

I do have some dear friends from Scottish backgrounds especially that I can remember even one who's now in heaven that you probably knew

01:39:02

Peter Jeffrey Peter Jeffrey when I embraced him he looked like he was going to one of the call 9 -1 -1 even though he knew me and all that is just kind of an interesting phenomenon you've got

01:39:16

John Murray you read his biography in volume 3 banner of truth writings of John Murray it talks about how he would walk around Westminster Seminary he would always be walking with the seminarians arm -in -arm arm around he was a touchy guy and he was a

01:39:35

Scotsman but it was because of biblical conviction that he cultivated these kinds of anti -cultural interactions

01:39:43

I think there are times when again not only do we need to straighten our bent temperament because we can be so aloof and reserve and un -christlike

01:39:53

I think there are times we needed to straighten our bent culture to conform to biblical models

01:40:01

I think that there can be something frankly in our northern European reserve

01:40:06

I live up in Michigan here a coldness that is inconsistent with heart affections that should be profuse between Christians the

01:40:14

Lord Jesus said they'll know that you are Christians and my disciples by the way that you love one another and like I said

01:40:23

I see Kevin he kisses his wife that's one way I know he loves his wife

01:40:28

I think there should be this element of these people look at John Murray he's walking with that seminary student he must really have an affection for them look at biblically the man after God's own heart

01:40:39

David kissed Jonathan and Christ and the 12 kissed and and Paul there he is

01:40:48

Acts chapter 20 he meets with the Ephesian elders when he bids a due to them what

01:40:53

I do they can't and they hug these are I think wholesome physical expression fact let me let me quote the doctor

01:41:01

John Murray his commentary on Romans 16 he says this it betrays an unnecessary reserve and this is a

01:41:09

Scotsman talking it betrays an unnecessary reserve if not loss of ardor of Christ first love when the

01:41:18

Holy Kiss is conspicuous by its absence in the Western Church Wow so that's interesting he really worked at overcoming this perhaps behavior that this affectionate behavior he he worked at overcoming the lack of it

01:41:43

I should say in his own culture even though it may have been uncomfortable in the beginning for him

01:41:49

I can't speak for him and his experience but his own biography people observed his life testified that this was the case and I do think it is something that we should work on a buzz you talked about a handshake and I I'm not against a handshake and we can't force things on people you've ever been in a church service where maybe it's before the and the pastor says okay now everybody turn around and whether be give each other the

01:42:18

Holy Kiss or give each other the greeting you know that can make your skin crawl or am I the only one who can feel like that when it's for and I'm not saying churches who do it are wrong but but I think there should be something that is more spontaneous less coerced something that is more sincere and and I do think okay but maybe it is for for somebody

01:42:43

I can handshake and that's good but why not okay maybe shake the hand and how about grab the forearm as well if if there really is that kind of affection that we speak about that that buzz you and I we have this glorious thing in common we are two hell deserving sinners who have been redeemed by the

01:43:07

Lord Jesus Christ who snatched us both of us as burning sticks from the fire and praise be to God he is our elder brother and we have a father and there should be so much fervent affection in fact that's what

01:43:21

Peter says too he says in first Peter 4 8 above all keep fervent in your love for one another because love covers over most sins but you and I should have a fervent burning love so that frankly a handshake is like a one -inch copper pipe trying to get the full surge of a fire hydrant you mentioned about being spontaneous kind of thing and having it done officially can make your skin crawl we have in a church that I attend quite a bit they've they've passed you've probably seen this before as part of a liturgy where they go around passing the peace of Christ and everybody's shaking hands and saying the peace of Christ be with you sure yeah we do that and I can't say that's wrong

01:44:15

I can't do it wrong at all I think there's more to it than just that kind of liturgical protocol because you have a pastor in that scenario really embarrassing you publicly if you don't do it by sheer virtue of the fact that he's telling you to do it and you're not doing but what's interesting though is nobody seems to have a problem with it and they go

01:44:37

I mean you know they'll go all over the church to make sure they get everybody well having said that don't you think

01:44:45

I know that I have been troubled by experiencing this and witnessing this in the past and I have especially heard unbelievers who have like visited a congregation with me or visited a worship service or some kind of a

01:45:00

Christian event where it is so robotic and unnatural that people can tell that it is well

01:45:09

I mean obviously we're not mind readers but sometimes you you can sense that there's something so robotic and phony about it it's like you're walking into the

01:45:18

Stepford Church instead of the Stepford Wives yes yes and then I think you look at the passages in the first Peter best that quote to where first Peter for it above all else keep fervent in your love for one another that speaks of a burning that speaks of a white hot so the issue is is not just the outward appearance man looks at the effort

01:45:41

God looks the heart he wants our hearts in this or even first Peter 122 love one another earnestly from a pure heart or three eight have unity of mind with brotherly love having a tender heart

01:45:55

I think yeah it's the heart of the matter Chris I think you're right and I think what we should be causing the physical outward it's got to be a holy kiss also in the sense that it's a sincere kiss it's not a it's not a deceitful kiss

01:46:10

Judas hey he kissed Jesus but he didn't have a heart for it and we need to be like it says in Proverbs 27 6 deceitful are the kisses of an enemy we want to say okay if I'm gonna embrace my brother and I'm gonna shake his hand grab his forearm give a man hug to my brother then it can't be carnal it can't be deceitful

01:46:36

I've got to have my heart be in this too and I think just kissing your wife the same thing true

01:46:41

I my heart needs to be affectionate toward her I think the lips can instruct the heart and vice versa we have

01:46:52

BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who wants to know how do you respond to someone who says that this is purely a cultural thing like foot washing that has no modern -day meaning yeah yeah

01:47:08

I well on the one hand I would say certainly we can't make it mandatory because let's say you're in the

01:47:15

Brethren Church you you have to do it if you don't do it then you're put out of a church

01:47:20

I don't think there should be that kind of a thing but again I I believe that as its present five times and as we've scanned these cultural and personal and heart affection elements

01:47:35

I just don't think you can discard it as as husk and say that there is no actual kernel that's in it

01:47:43

I think I think there's kernel and I think frankly the physiological touch element is part of the current let me just give an example even we were talking about the idea of male and female as well

01:47:55

I think there needs to be great care regarding the male and female but again

01:48:01

I wouldn't want to say okay therefore greet just men to men with a holy kiss and and women to women with a holy kiss there was an occasion back in oh one my dad died and it was a total surprise he had just tied his best golf game he was only 71 he was in great health he died on a

01:48:22

Wednesday and it was in the morning when I I went off to the emergency room I hope my dad was still be alive but I saw him there on a gurney he was cold and I I embraced him and I kissed him but he was he was gone so all day

01:48:37

I I couldn't eat anything and I came to prayer meeting I'm sitting in the back row of our church and no one knew

01:48:43

I was there in fact I didn't even think I wanted to be there but I had to be with the brethren and I came and sat in the back row and they were praying about my dad and one of the guys prayed this way said he said oh we hear he says we hear of the

01:49:00

Queen of Sheba and when she got to Solomon's throne room she said they didn't tell me the half of the glory of your kingdom and we know that this is what

01:49:08

Dick Mark's dad is enjoying right now that he hasn't heard of half the glory his son never told him half of the glory of heaven so I'm just sitting in the back and I'm just crying my eyes out and a woman in the church

01:49:20

Jen Jennifer she's still in our church Jennifer saw me back there and she turned around she walked four rows back and she gave me this huge and I just wept like a baby in her arms you know there was not an ounce of eroticism in that that was such a wholesome expression of sisterly affection that at that moment was a godsend and it was the it was the kiss on the cheek of my

01:49:50

Lord Jesus to me who I was just hemorrhaging with grief and this woman gave me the tourniquet

01:49:59

I needed amen we have CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island New York who says don't you think that in order for the holy kiss to be authentic we really need to pray that we do fall in love with our brothers and sisters in Christ and really genuinely care about them and their souls and therefore the holy kiss will be a genuine holy kiss yeah

01:50:27

I think that's absolutely right because I think the call for holiness is not only a lack of sensuality but I think it is depth of sincerity that it's the real deal yeah man may look at the outward appearance but but God is looking at the heart and that's what he wants he wants our hearts yeah you could give people holy kisses to the cows come home but if you never ever ever invite them over your home you never demonstrate any kind of real genuine sincere concern and compassion for them it's just gonna be a hollow thing right yeah

01:51:05

I think that's another application of this too I think 1st John 318 let us not love with word or with tongue or we can even say with lips but in deed and in truth and I think that an expansion of greeting one another with a holy kiss would be like you say have somebody over after church come on over someone from a different culture we're just talking about this recently in in Holland Michigan now we have various blending together we're not homogenous here anymore have people over to your house give telephone calls to people engage after the worship service in conversation with people who it may be going beyond your comfort zone to talk to certain individuals in the congregation to offer to babysit someone's children so I do think you're right we want to expand this beyond just the the physiological choreography of handshake or arm forearm grab or shoulder embrace and by the way regarding embracing in relation with women maybe it's not a full body embrace maybe it's putting your arm around someone's shoulder and and having that kind of a of a sisterly brotherly affection but always being careful regarding the particular individual and ages and all those delicate dynamics now

01:52:38

I don't know if it's because of the ethnic backgrounds of many Christians in New York I'm a native

01:52:43

New Yorker although I live in Pennsylvania now but there was I've noticed it's funny because New York is known as the capital of rudeness and indifference and crudeness but when

01:53:00

I visit New York the brothers in Christ tend to be rushing over and hugging you the brothers and sisters of course my wallet usually winds up missing afterwards but this seems to be a lot more open display of affection like that than in other parts of the country

01:53:18

I've been where people might be more well known stereotypically for being more polite but it seems that the real affection the deep affection and friendship seems to run a lot thinner in a lot of places yeah

01:53:35

I think what's going on in New York there I believe that is the spontaneous effect of the

01:53:40

Spirit of God and the gospel straightening a bentness of culture a culture that is bent toward rudeness in Christ we're made affectionate to each other or even another example is you go down to I've been down to the

01:53:57

Dominican Republic and Santa Domingo a sister church down there well I tell you what if if I stand like a cardboard northern

01:54:06

European pastor they wonder what why is this man so aloof and uncaring that the ladies lean over and they want and they kiss you on the cheek and you know after three or four days in the

01:54:18

DR I find myself you kiss ladies in the cheek and again not erotic

01:54:23

I mean I there wasn't an erotic element to it there was just something that was healthy about it yeah

01:54:30

I think one of the reasons why there is it seems to me anyway a lot of affection towards fellow

01:54:38

Christians in places like New York it's because it's like seeing like the extinct dodo bird you know when you see another

01:54:46

Christian in a place where it's not the Bible Belt where there are people all over the place in fact in the

01:54:53

Bible Belt it's unusual for someone not to identify themselves as a Christian even if they are as dead as a doornail spiritually in New York it's more of a rarity to have brothers and sisters in Christ who are true regenerate

01:55:08

Bible believing people in a place that's surrounded by liberalism and leftism an anti -christian behavior yeah yes

01:55:16

I think so it's also an interesting thing how the the text says greet all the brethren the first f5 passage greet all the brethren with the holy kiss

01:55:26

I think that calls us to to not just have our favorites within the church a cliquishness

01:55:32

I still remember when I was in first grade my teacher mrs. Russell long time ago

01:55:37

Chris and I was in first grade believe me but mrs. Russell said okay day before Valentine's Day okay now bring a

01:55:43

Valentine for all of the classmates not just for a couple three you may be sweet on bring a

01:55:51

Valentine for all of the classmates and I think in a like way the Lord is saying greet all the brethren with a holy kiss meaning that there is a way we are to look not just among certain individuals that are our favorites that there should be this cultivating of a universal affection among all the people in the church

01:56:16

I think that's pretty instructive as well and if you could now summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we run out of time well

01:56:26

I guess I would again go back to that to that first Peter passage where the Apostle says keep fervent love in your hearts one for another in effect it says above all keep fervent love in your hearts one for another because love covers over a multitude of sins and I think it indicates that that is not something that is merely spontaneous that happens naturally

01:56:55

I think we need to work toward it if you've got a campfire in the backyard the only way that you keep it hot is by continuing to poke at it to turn over the kindling and then add new wood to it and in the

01:57:14

Church of the Lord Jesus Christ if we're to greet all the brethren with a holy kiss that just calls us to be fire keepers in our own hearts and making sure that this burns and you know in many churches what happens is people come together for two or three or four years and all the relationships are new and all the relationships are fresh but then after you're three or four or five and beyond then they begin to warehouse certain offenses that we had with this person a tiff with that person a running that we have another person and then about year five you leave the church right and you start off new but I think this calls us keep fervent in your love one for another because love covers over a multitude of sins this is real deal authentic mature

01:58:05

Christianity and may God enable us to use this this holy kiss issue to be a barometer in our own hearts our lips teach our hearts but then our hearts are expressed in our lips and our hands and our embraces and may we truly be able to express that Christlike sacrificing love he went to the cross for us he went under comfort zone for us so we got to go out of our comfort zones and fervently love each other so that's my that's my last word amen and the website for the

01:58:37

Harbor Reformed Baptist Church in Holland Michigan is Harbor Church Holland org

01:58:43

Harbor Church Holland org thank you so much pastor Chansky if you could remain on the line so I can schedule another interview with you when we go off the air all right and I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who sent in questions and want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater