Sovereignty Conference Q&A

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Welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist.
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My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist.
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Good morning.
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How are you? How's everybody? Yay.
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All right.
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We are finishing out our conference.
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This is our 2020 summer conference at Sovereign Grace Family Church.
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And we're today going to be doing a Q and A with my two brothers who gave the messages today.
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We have brother Andy Montoro, who's one of the elders here at Sovereign Grace and brother Mike Collier, who is also an elder here.
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I enjoy serving with these men.
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I enjoy having an opportunity to answer some questions with them.
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Now, on top of this, I also want to do our giveaway.
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Some of you participated this week in a online contest where you had the ability to win a MacArthur study Bible.
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Those who participated in that contest, their names are in this basket.
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So some of you may be in the room, but if you're not in the room, you don't have to be in the room to win.
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Brother Mike, you're going to be the puller of the name.
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My sovereign choice.
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It is going to be your, you know what? God is sovereign over this.
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He already knows who's getting this Bible.
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And if you get it, you probably need it.
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Here you go.
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Reach in and grab.
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If you'll just read the name off.
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Elaine Duronincourt.
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There you go.
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All right, Elaine Duronincourt.
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Y'all don't know who he is, but he's a student of Sovereign Grace Academy.
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So this Bible now belongs to Duronincourt, and we will give that Bible to him and praise the Lord.
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Now, the other thing we have to give away is for somebody in this room.
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And this is a copy of this book.
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This was one of the books that I read and was very helpful to me when I was first beginning to understand reform theology back in 2004 and 2005.
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This book is entitled, The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended, and Documented by Steele, Thomas, and Quinn.
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This is a brand new book, and it is going to go to one of you now.
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You have to have your numbers ready.
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Has everybody got their numbers ready? Brother Andy, you will do the honors.
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Don't look.
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I choose.
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That one? All right.
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The name is 38.
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38.
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Who's number 38? Manoa.
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No, Manoa? Congratulations.
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Throw it up there.
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I will give it to you when we're done.
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And again, hey, since that came up, I want to mention something.
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I want to thank Nathaniel, who is almost always here every week doing our sound, for Manoa, who's doing the video up there, for all the guys who work in the booth.
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Give them a hand, because they did a great job today.
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And of course, we're very thankful for those who prepared our food and got everything ready, especially you, Brother Gary, for putting it all in coordinating with us.
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Thank you.
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All right.
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We're now going to move to the Q&A section.
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We've got about 25 minutes to do this Q&A, and depending on how many of you have questions, the microphone is right here.
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You're going to come up and give us your question, and then each of us will have a few minutes to opine upon the answer to that question.
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And if we don't know, we'll simply say, God is sovereign, and we'll move on.
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But we'll say, ask him.
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No, well.
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Okay.
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Who would like to go first? Brother Chris, you said you had a question.
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All right.
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So I know God's sovereign, and he knows everything, but like, as far as like the leaves falling and the sparrows falling, I mean, does he make that happen? Or is it like when he sets things in motion, that stuff naturally goes through the course and stuff.
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That kind of stuff happens.
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You understand what I'm saying? I understand exactly what you're saying.
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Mike? I'll let you guys go first.
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Age first? Age before beauty? I would say that God is active, both in primary causes and secondary causes.
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So whether you want to consider it that way, that it was a natural course of events, that the sparrow would fall to the ground, or the leaf would fall off the tree, I do think that it still would be under the sovereignty of God, and that is still by decree.
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Otherwise, as I said to you, as I said, in my way of understanding it, God would not be sovereign if it was any other way.
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So whether it's the principles that God has put in order, or whether God intervenes in a miraculous way, God is sovereign over all the events.
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And that's good.
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Brother Mike, you want to say anything? The language of putting in place, not to be corrective, but putting things in motion is more of a deistic approach to how God just kind of wound everything up and then lets it go in motion.
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That's not how we see the falling of the leaves.
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I'm not saying that's how you see that, okay? But that is the vast majority of how people see God.
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He puts things in motion, and they just work themselves out.
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God sovereignly decreed that the pine cone would fall.
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Now, are we able to determine what's his eternal purpose in that pine cone falling from the tree? Well, of course not.
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But when we see death or we see life, we can go through time and look back and say this was God's purpose if it's revealed through events.
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But certainly, everything happens because of God's decree.
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The pine cone didn't fall on its own.
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All right, Keith, you can clean it up.
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Well, when you think about what is a miracle, a miracle is something that, in a sense, suspends the order that God has set in place.
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So for instance, when God parts the Red Sea, he makes water stand on itself.
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Water doesn't do that.
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Water doesn't stand up.
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And the reason that's a miracle is because water, and when I use the word by nature, I mean the way God designed water to operate was to lay.
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Water is the perfect leveler.
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If you lay water, it's always gonna lay level because that's the way water works.
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And so I know that if I get up tomorrow and I heat water to 212 degrees Fahrenheit, it's going to boil because that's the way God decreed it.
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And if I put water in the freezer and it gets to 32 degrees Fahrenheit, it's going to freeze because that's what God has decreed.
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And therefore I can do science.
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Science is based on the principle that God has created a world that is understandable and repeatable and learnable.
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We can learn about the world because God designed it to work in a certain way.
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But yet he is still the one who causes it to freeze at 232 degrees.
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He's still the operator.
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He's the first cause of all things.
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And therefore, even though he has designed it to work in a certain way, he is still sovereign over it.
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And he can't intervene at any moment and make the water boil at 300 degrees or 100 degrees or whatever, God could intervene.
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That's what we would identify as miraculous, as something that God intervenes in.
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Now, can we define miracles a different way? Yes, but I think the most basic way to define a miracle is when God does something that is outside of the way that he designed it to do.
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That make sense? Does that fit within everyone else's? Are we good with that? Yeah, we good? All right, who next? Oh, come on.
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We've talked about some heavy stuff.
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Please.
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Concerning God's sovereignty and election.
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Oftentimes you hear, since he predestined those, he was going to save.
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Does that also mean he predestined those who were going to go to hell? In other words, we're talking about double predestination.
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So do you agree with double predestination or not? And, there you go.
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You want a heavy one? No, I'm prepared, but I don't want to go first.
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Because, I guess I have been dubbed that guy.
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Once again, not to sound corrective, but I don't like the language of double predestination.
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I'm just using it.
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I know, I'm just, yeah.
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We see God in an election as this one, not this one.
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This one, not this one.
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Because that's how you and I choose.
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That's not how God chooses.
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God looks over all of humanity, and all of humanity is fallen.
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Now, I know this could open up a question on inferlapsarianism and superlapsarianism, and I'm fine with answering any of those questions as well.
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Okay? But God looks over all of humanity that has fallen and willfully makes an active choice to save some and then passes over others.
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That's called preterition, meaning pass over.
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And in that preterition, God leaves those men and women in their sins.
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Then, there was no activeness to God in that.
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Okay? He passes over them.
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But then, God's activeness is then willingly, in sorrow, punishing those men, women, boys, and girls in their sin.
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They were already damned.
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God then predestined some to be saved.
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That's how I would answer the question, but I'll let these guys correct me.
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Go.
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Go second.
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I want me to go second.
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Go second.
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He's gonna correct you this time.
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No, I'm not.
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I'm gonna clean it up today.
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John Piper was famous for saying that he was a six-point Calvinist.
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And Brother Andy said earlier, there is no six-point Calvinist, but John Piper said he was a six-point Calvinist because he did believe in double predestination.
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But his definition is still the same as Brother Mike's.
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But the point that he was making was that in choosing to pass over, he's still making a choice.
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He is choosing.
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He is not introducing evil, though.
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That's the point.
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And I think this is going where you're going.
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God does not make us evil.
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We are evil.
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He makes the righteous righteous, and he passes over the unrighteous.
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But he's still making a choice to pass over the unrighteous.
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And in that case, Piper would say that's an expression of predetermination or predestination.
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But it's not what we would refer to as equal ultimacy.
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Equal ultimacy is God expressing the same amount of effort on behalf of the elect as he does on behalf of the reprobate.
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God does not have to express any effort on behalf of the reprobate because they're already reprobate.
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He expresses effort on behalf of the elect.
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And therefore, there is a positive nature by which he interacts with them and a negative nature that he's interacting with the reprobate.
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And so I'm saying the same thing Mike did, just in a little different way.
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Ultimately, though, some people identify, huh? More polished.
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Well, a little more polished.
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But the way of understanding the concept of double predestination, if by that, and you were with me the day we went to that church.
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There was a church in town that, they had a thing, we're gonna teach on Calvinism, Arminianism, and we're gonna take questions, and we're gonna do it in an hour.
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Anyway, so we went, I probably shouldn't have done that, that was ugly.
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But we went, Richard and I, and the question was asked about double predestination.
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And I was asked, as the guest, to give my understanding.
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And I said, well, the problem is is people qualify double predestination with equal ultimacy, they're not the same thing.
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And if you identify equal ultimacy, meaning God expresses the same amount of energy towards the lost as he does towards the elect, then you have missed the understanding of what God does.
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God's grace is an active, and the reprobation is a passive, yes.
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Okay.
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Correct us both.
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So, you're on.
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Now, let's just consider for a second what God did with angels.
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When God created the angels, did not God decree that some would fall, and that some would not fall? He did.
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And it was, again, a sovereign choice by God to have those created beings, those that followed in the deception of Satan.
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And what's really interesting about that, and we don't usually talk about that, we'll talk about predestination and double predestination and infilapsarian and supilapsarian and any other kind of fancy word we wanna throw about it.
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But when you think about the angels, again, I mean, not only were they predestined and not only were they kept as the elect angels, but consider there was no offer of salvation for those that fall.
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And to me, that is a even harder way to think through this if you wanna talk about predestination and double predestination in that God not only ordained, and even as I was looking at Jude where it talks about the men of old that were ordained in that sense to be false teachers and they were doomed to destruction for it.
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And then Peter talks about the angels that kept not their first estate.
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There is no redemption for angels.
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There is no redemption.
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It's only as we are made in the image of God that God, even in that sense, extends, and it's a purposeful and it's a decree that he grants us salvation.
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And then let me just finish it this way.
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Even if it was double predestination, praise God.
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And that's the, and I always just felt that was in a great way what I got from taking Brother Mike's message.
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Whether or not it seems as if it's a right thing to do or a wrong thing to do, and you said it certainly in your message, if God does it, it's right.
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That's right.
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Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? Amen.
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And people say, well, that's not a complete answer.
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I don't have to give complete answers, but God certainly is free to do what he will with his own.
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And there is, the passage does say elect angels.
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That's an important thing people often overlook.
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Okay, there's no one at the microphone.
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We have 10 minutes left.
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I could tap dance.
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Brother Mark had a comment.
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Brother Mark, come, come, please.
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Okay, is it, can you work it into a question? Would you like a microphone? He's got it.
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Come sit.
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And this is Pastor Mark from Set Free, by the way, for those of you who don't know, he runs the ministry that we have been connected with now for over a year and really enjoy serving.
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About two years now.
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Oh, wow, yeah, it has been.
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So as all three of your messages were awesome, I never put that together in the Old Testament.
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I could never say the name Sinatraab or whatever it is going on, but through this, I love Brother Andy's message of because the sovereignty of God should bring us to worship, to humbly worship God, because if it's just about knowing things, you missed the whole point of it.
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But as you were walking through Romans nine, I remember when I was preaching through Romans, it was such, that was like the thing, is everybody kept asking, what are you gonna do with nine? What are you gonna do with nine? And when I got to nine, it was just like, well, it's actually probably the simplest text in the scripture.
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It's just the one that nobody likes.
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And when you come, when people come to me at Set Free and they're struggling with it, they're not struggling because they don't understand it.
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They're struggling because they do understand it and they don't like it.
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Do you think I'm right? Question mark.
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Yes, I think it's exactly right.
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Most people try to find a way around Romans nine.
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It's either just to forgo it and don't read it, or when they do read it, they try to read nationalism into it, well, this is God electing nations rather than individuals, and that's blown out of the water in several places that don't fly.
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Or they'll say, well, this is not God electing to salvation, this is God electing to service.
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Again, vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction, not for lack of service, doesn't fit.
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So the answers that are often given, Michael Brown is a non-Calvinist.
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He debates James White on this subject several times.
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You can find their debates online.
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And he was asked during one of the debates, what passage do you think is most difficult for you as a non-Calvinist to overcome? What passage do you feel like is most clear on their side? Which I thought was a good question.
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And Michael Brown said Romans chapter nine.
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It's really hard to get over it, and most people just don't deal with it, so.
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Say anything about that? We're gonna leave you clean and fluid today on this one.
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So think about this, and understand what you're saying, Brother Monk.
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The reason why people struggle many times with Romans nine is because they've never really considered Romans one.
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What I mean by that, let's just look at, consider the tulip for just a second, even as an acrostic, and even as just a way to kind of bullet point.
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If you do not understand the condition of man, if you do not understand total depravity, then you're really gonna struggle with the sovereignty of God.
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If you really don't know the pit that you're in, that's what it says, remember the pit that you were taken out of, remember the rock that you were ewed out.
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If we don't really understand our condition before God as lost, dead sinners, then the sovereignty of God, to many, it won't make sense.
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The same way the cross won't make sense, and we were talking about this before.
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Out of all the thoughts about the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace, which one is the most difficult? I would suggest that many people, when they think about it, it's the limited atonement, or the particular redemption, because what that is saying is that Christ died as we said to finish, he did not die to make men savable, he died to save, and either he did or he didn't.
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So when you come and you look at the acrostic of the L, the limited atonement, again, you will not understand what Christ did on the cross unless you understand the condition you were in that drove him to the cross.
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So Romans nine is really, I agree with you, it's the easiest of all of them, because he's been building that argument throughout his epistle, right? So if you can't work backwards, then Romans nine will always remain a stone block.
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Yes, it will always be a stumbling block, and one, because people think that in, when it's saying Jacob I love, Esau I hate it, once again, it's this one and not this one, but then when people are saved, they don't take into account that when God elects that person, they're transformed.
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And people aren't saved that live a life of rebellion and debauchery, because God changes them.
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So instead of looking at the whole book of Romans, they look at nine instead of going, okay, we have, in just a real quick three point of Romans, you have grace that's been defied, then you have grace that's supplied, and then you have grace that is applied.
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They don't look at the book of Romans that way.
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They extrapolate and go, I just don't like that.
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Miss Rosanna had her hand up, and you can be our last person, but you gotta come to the mic, I wanna be able to hear you.
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Or I don't wanna hear you, the world wants to hear you.
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All of our 10 listeners.
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Our podcast listeners, which stretch all around Jacksonville.
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The Lord has asked us to pray for others, and Christian parents pray for their children.
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How does the righteous prayer of a righteous person avail against the salvation of your children, especially if you're concerned that they're not saved? I don't know what order we wanna go in.
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Does it matter? I'll jump.
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Go.
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If I saw John, throw me a life preserver, please.
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So, again, I think we can go back to, God has not only ordained all things to come to pass, but God has ordained the primary, secondary, thirdary, fourthary causes to accomplish those purposes.
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When it comes to prayer, certainly, it does say that the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
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And what's interesting about that is, if you remember that, the narrative, how many times he prayed before he was answered.
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Do you remember, he went out, he looked, the prophet went out, he looked, he didn't say anything.
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He came back, he went out again, and it wasn't until the seventh time, and then he came back, and what he saw was a little man's, a man's, the cloud looked like a man's fist.
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And he says, go tell the king it's gonna rain.
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So when it comes to prayer and the salvation of children, I believe it is, it is what, it is ordained by God, and it is useful not only in the accomplishment of the salvation of the lost, whether they be children or whatever way you wanna frame it up, but it also is effectual in our sanctification.
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And that God uses both, in the same way he uses everything else, God wastes nothing.
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So, and I don't know if we, I don't know we don't have time to go into God and babies and children and all that, and I don't think that's what we wanna do right now.
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But, I would answer it by saying that, that God has ordained that we ought to pray.
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I would also say that God has ordained in his mercy to say so, but that we would have to recognize, again, as I would say, shall not the judge of all the earth be right? And, I'll just close it this way, maybe I'm taking too much time, but Charles Spurgeon once said, somebody asked him, if he was a Calvinist, why did he preach to everybody? And maybe you, most of you probably heard this story.
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And Spurgeon said, if you can prove to me that you could paint a yellow, a yellow stripe on the back of only God's elect, he said, I'll never preach to anybody again, but God's elect, because only God's elect will respond.
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But he said, until that day comes, that you could prove to me, that I will be able to discern between God's elect and those that are not, I'm gonna preach to everyone that I can.
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And so, again, God has ordained preaching as well as he's ordained prayer.
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Not only has he ordained it, he has commanded it.
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Praying is difficult for me.
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I'm probably saying that to all 10 of our podcast listeners now.
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It is difficult in the sense that every part of someone's theology had effects their sanctification.
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I don't care what anybody says, if you just go home and start looking at areas of your theology, it affects it.
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And it does affect the sovereignty of God, at times, affects my prayer life.
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Because I know that God's going to do what he's going to do, not in a fatalistic way, okay? But in a way that God's going to, he's going to carry out his eternal purposes, even the lies, or even maybe or maybe not the salvation of my children.
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But God's commanded me to pray.
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So I have to repent of not praying fervently.
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I have to repent of not praying enough.
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And I have to know that the means by which someone is saved in God's decree is my fervent prayer.
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And I have to pray fervently.
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And if God so chooses not to save my children, on that day, I will have to say, whatsoever the Lord does is right.
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And that's hard to swallow here.
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Remember, our children come into the world wicked.
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They're not good.
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And I'm sorry if there's any Presbyterian people here.
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We don't have covenant children.
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They're all under the condemnation of God.
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They need the gospel preached to them every day.
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And they need us to pray for them every day.
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And they need to see us lived out in our life.
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And they need to see when we sin against our wives, they need to see us ask for forgiveness.
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And when we sin against our children, we need to go to them and say, you know what? I maybe responded to you in such a way that was not Christ-like.
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And I'm sorry.
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And pray.
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Well, I guess because time has gone, I'll make this the last thing and then we'll pray.
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We'll pray.
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Because we're commanded to.
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And because God has ordained it.
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Over the years, I've had different people come to me with objections to reformed theology.
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But the one that I remember more than any other, because it was so personal and emotional, was a woman, her husband was a member of the church.
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She never joined the church.
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And part of the reason she never joined the church was because of reformed theology.
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And she came to me and she said, if what you're saying is true, then I don't have any influence over whether or not my child gets saved.
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I can't get my child saved.
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It's all up to God.
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And my response to her, and maybe it was because I was 20 and 25, however, I was young.
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I might've been a little bit more gracious now.
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I haven't always been so eloquent.
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That was a joke.
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We got it bro.
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Okay.
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I said, would you rather your child's salvation be up to you or to God? Would you rather trust your child's salvation with how good you can lead them to Christ? Or would you rather trust their salvation with the only one who can truly save their soul? Now that doesn't really answer Rosanna's question, but that does get to the heart of really the problem that a lot of people have when it becomes the issue of children.
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It's the issue of, I have to know my child is saved because if God doesn't save my child, then he's not good.
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And remember what we've learned today.
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Who are you, old man, who answers back to God? I desperately want God to save my children.
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I'm thankful that I get to have family worship with my children and I can pray with my children.
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And I do believe that as you've already heard, prayer is a vital instrument that God uses in the salvation of souls.
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Prayer is an instrument.
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It's a tool.
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You know, I use this example sometimes.
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I say, my child was born, my children were born by the decree of God.
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November 12th, 2012, Hope Foskey was born by the decree of God.
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But nine months before that, there was an interaction which brought about her conception.
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And that was the means by which God brought about her birth.
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And that's what we mean when we say God ordains not only the end, but the means to the end.
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Prayer is one of the means God uses to bring people to salvation.
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So yes, pray fervently for your children and know that the effectual prayer of a righteous person does avail much.
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Let's pray.
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Father in heaven, we thank you for this time.
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We thank you for this wonderful conference.
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I thank you for these men with whom I serve.
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I thank you for all of our elders, Lord.
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And I thank you for all of our members and I thank you for all of their friends and our visitors who've been here today.
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God, what a joy it is to have served together.
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Lord, lead us from this place now with a confidence in the word of God, maybe greater than we've ever had, a confidence in the sovereignty of God maybe that we've ever understood.
31:43
And may when we continue to study and continue to seek to show ourselves approved unto God as workmen who need not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
31:51
Lord, help us, Lord, to do and be that which you have called us to do and be.
31:56
But most of all, Lord, help us to rely upon grace for without grace, we have no hope.
32:02
And we thank you for your grace, your sovereign grace.
32:05
In Jesus' name, amen.